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Question: Do you believe that the acount of genesis in the Old testament should be taken literally?
Yes - 54 (15.6%)
No - 134 (38.7%)
both metaphorically and literally - 158 (45.7%)
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Author Topic: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy  (Read 348126 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #5445 on: October 29, 2013, 05:15:30 AM »

With all the things I saw and the rituals I took apart in while I was a pagan, plus what lead to me becoming an Orthodox Christian I can not not believe in God.
This may be true, but it doesn't have anything to do with creationism vs evolution.  Evolution does not eliminate the possibility of God.

Does it not do that by replacing creator with chance?
No. It states that inherited characteristics of biological populations can change as time goes on.  It does not say anything about the origin of organisms.


Ohh. I see. Good to know
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« Reply #5446 on: October 29, 2013, 10:47:45 AM »

Does the narrative of the Serpent in Genesis communicate something about the role of snakes in the evolution of primate vision?

"Oct. 28, 2013 — Was the evolution of high-quality vision in our ancestors driven by the threat of snakes? Work by neuroscientists in Japan and Brazil is supporting the theory originally put forward by Lynne Isbell, professor of anthropology at the University of California, Davis.
....
Isbell originally published her hypothesis in 2006, following up with a book, The Fruit, the Tree and the Serpent (Harvard University Press, 2009) in which she argued that our primate ancestors evolved good, close-range vision primarily to spot and avoid dangerous snakes."

____________

This might have some relevance to the current practice of snake-handling among some Pentecostals.
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« Reply #5447 on: October 29, 2013, 11:02:48 AM »

My guess would be no.  I think any attempt to ascertain scientific theory from Scripture does a disservice to both science and our faith. The title of her book alone demonstrates what is so wrong with much of today's scientific community.  They do not wish religion to enter science, but then turn around and attempt to squeeze their worldviews into faith circles (i.e. placing "cute" titles on their books referencing religious narratives).  It is contemptable.
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« Reply #5448 on: October 29, 2013, 11:10:05 AM »

My guess would be no.  I think any attempt to ascertain scientific theory from Scripture does a disservice to both science and our faith. The title of her book alone demonstrates what is so wrong with much of today's scientific community.  They do not wish religion to enter science, but then turn around and attempt to squeeze their worldviews into faith circles (i.e. placing "cute" titles on their books referencing religious narratives).  It is contemptable.
I should point out that Isbell didn't make the connection with Genesis (or, if she did, she was not being serious about it); rather, I made the connection.

If Scripture does communicate something about reality -- without being a scientific text-book -- then would it be impossible for Scripture to confirm certain ideas also confirmed by science? For instance, the narrative of Genesis chapter 1 to chapter 2 verse 3, need not be understood as a scientific description of how the cosmos formed, but there are basic ideas in that narrative (the appearance of animal life in the water before on the land; or the relatively late appearance of humans) that are consistent with modern science. Perhaps the Serpent narrative is an example of an intuitive or revelatory symbol that touches upon something empirically verifiable.

It is interesting that Adam and Eve's "eyes" were "opened" as a result of contact with the Serpent.
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« Reply #5449 on: October 29, 2013, 11:19:11 AM »

My guess would be no.  I think any attempt to ascertain scientific theory from Scripture does a disservice to both science and our faith. The title of her book alone demonstrates what is so wrong with much of today's scientific community.  They do not wish religion to enter science, but then turn around and attempt to squeeze their worldviews into faith circles (i.e. placing "cute" titles on their books referencing religious narratives).  It is contemptable.
I should point out that Isbell didn't make the connection with Genesis (or, if she did, she was not being serious about it); rather, I made the connection.

The title of her book is a clear allusion to the Genesis story.

Quote
If Scripture does communicate something about reality -- without being a scientific text-book -- then would it be impossible for Scripture to confirm certain ideas also confirmed by science? For instance, the narrative of Genesis chapter 1 to chapter 2 verse 3, need not be understood as a scientific description of how the cosmos formed, but there are basic ideas in that narrative (the appearance of animal life in the water before on the land; or the relatively late appearance of humans) that are consistent with modern science. Perhaps the Serpent narrative is an example of an intuitive or revelatory symbol that touches upon something empirically verifiable.

It is interesting that Adam and Eve's "eyes" were "opened" as a result of contact with the Serpent.
Scripture does communicate something about reality, but not necessarily physical reality.  It is like an icon.  We don't think that all the saints just stood around with scrolls in their hand making the sign of the cross while their head had a halo around it. It is an image of "the beyond".  Scripture's intent is to convey information about the "beyond".  There are historical accounts in it, but even those are not intended for us to study history from, it is so that we might learn a spiritual lesson from.
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« Reply #5450 on: October 29, 2013, 10:47:01 PM »

All I know is God did it. I don't really care how, and it's not for me to know anyway. The same thing with the Eucharist.

+1

I enjoyed very much a recent talk by Fr. Thomas Hopko on "The Slippery Slope", and in it, he does mention the Bible is interpreted incorrectly by those who wish to contradict the faith with the science of evolution, which to him is a non-issue:

www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/the_slippery_slope

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« Reply #5451 on: October 29, 2013, 11:21:36 PM »

All I know is God did it. I don't really care how, and it's not for me to know anyway. The same thing with the Eucharist.

+1

I enjoyed very much a recent talk by Fr. Thomas Hopko on "The Slippery Slope", and in it, he does mention the Bible is interpreted incorrectly by those who wish to contradict the faith with the science of evolution, which to him is a non-issue:

www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/the_slippery_slope

You're all wrong. Scientific revolutions are always an issue.
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« Reply #5452 on: October 30, 2013, 08:29:03 PM »


The title of her book is a clear allusion to the Genesis story.
True, but she didn't seriously propose that Genesis is able to communicate an empirical truth due to divine inspiration. For her, it was more of a good guess arising from the observations of an ancient writer.

Quote
Scripture does communicate something about reality, but not necessarily physical reality.  It is like an icon.  We don't think that all the saints just stood around with scrolls in their hand making the sign of the cross while their head had a halo around it. It is an image of "the beyond".  Scripture's intent is to convey information about the "beyond".  There are historical accounts in it, but even those are not intended for us to study history from, it is so that we might learn a spiritual lesson from.
Are you saying that the 'halo' around saints is purely an image constructed by the icon-writer?
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« Reply #5453 on: October 30, 2013, 08:41:53 PM »

Are you saying that the 'halo' around saints is purely an image constructed by the icon-writer?

I'd say so. Being so close to the Lord, I'd imagine that the saints wouldn't simply shine from their heads but from their entire bodies They are more likely to have a mandorla than a simple halo.

Not that it would be right to depict them as such. Best to leave that motif to Christ alone.
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« Reply #5454 on: October 30, 2013, 08:58:32 PM »

Are you saying that the 'halo' around saints is purely an image constructed by the icon-writer?

I'd say so. Being so close to the Lord, I'd imagine that the saints wouldn't simply shine from their heads but from their entire bodies....

Well, the face of Moses did shine (Exodus 34:35).
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« Reply #5455 on: November 03, 2013, 10:33:23 PM »

Does the narrative of the Serpent in Genesis communicate something about the role of snakes in the evolution of primate vision?

"Oct. 28, 2013 — Was the evolution of high-quality vision in our ancestors driven by the threat of snakes? Work by neuroscientists in Japan and Brazil is supporting the theory originally put forward by Lynne Isbell, professor of anthropology at the University of California, Davis.
....
Isbell originally published her hypothesis in 2006, following up with a book, The Fruit, the Tree and the Serpent (Harvard University Press, 2009) in which she argued that our primate ancestors evolved good, close-range vision primarily to spot and avoid dangerous snakes."

____________

This might have some relevance to the current practice of snake-handling among some Pentecostals.

Some saint wrote that the snake was man's closest friend before the Fall.
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« Reply #5456 on: November 03, 2013, 11:24:05 PM »

My guess would be no.  I think any attempt to ascertain scientific theory from Scripture does a disservice to both science and our faith. The title of her book alone demonstrates what is so wrong with much of today's scientific community.  They do not wish religion to enter science, but then turn around and attempt to squeeze their worldviews into faith circles (i.e. placing "cute" titles on their books referencing religious narratives).  It is contemptable.

Indeed.
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« Reply #5457 on: November 04, 2013, 12:10:33 AM »

Does the narrative of the Serpent in Genesis communicate something about the role of snakes in the evolution of primate vision?

"Oct. 28, 2013 — Was the evolution of high-quality vision in our ancestors driven by the threat of snakes? Work by neuroscientists in Japan and Brazil is supporting the theory originally put forward by Lynne Isbell, professor of anthropology at the University of California, Davis.
....
Isbell originally published her hypothesis in 2006, following up with a book, The Fruit, the Tree and the Serpent (Harvard University Press, 2009) in which she argued that our primate ancestors evolved good, close-range vision primarily to spot and avoid dangerous snakes."

____________

This might have some relevance to the current practice of snake-handling among some Pentecostals.

Some saint wrote that the snake was man's closest friend before the Fall.

In the Coptic Church, we have a famous medieval saint, St. Barsoum the Naked, who lived in a cave where a large snake/serpent (supposedly big enough for people to be scared and stay away) lived.  Legend has it, by his prayers, the serpent was tame, and it became for St. Barsoum not just a pet, but a loyal servant, even trying to protect St. Barsoum from persecution.
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« Reply #5458 on: November 04, 2013, 03:20:03 AM »

Does the narrative of the Serpent in Genesis communicate something about the role of snakes in the evolution of primate vision?

"Oct. 28, 2013 — Was the evolution of high-quality vision in our ancestors driven by the threat of snakes? Work by neuroscientists in Japan and Brazil is supporting the theory originally put forward by Lynne Isbell, professor of anthropology at the University of California, Davis.
....
Isbell originally published her hypothesis in 2006, following up with a book, The Fruit, the Tree and the Serpent (Harvard University Press, 2009) in which she argued that our primate ancestors evolved good, close-range vision primarily to spot and avoid dangerous snakes."

____________

This might have some relevance to the current practice of snake-handling among some Pentecostals.

Some saint wrote that the snake was man's closest friend before the Fall.

In the Coptic Church, we have a famous medieval saint, St. Barsoum the Naked, who lived in a cave where a large snake/serpent (supposedly big enough for people to be scared and stay away) lived.  Legend has it, by his prayers, the serpent was tame, and it became for St. Barsoum not just a pet, but a loyal servant, even trying to protect St. Barsoum from persecution.

This reminds me of our Ethiopian Saint, Abuna Aregawi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuna_Aregawi
http://ethiopiatours.eu/debre-damo-monastery/






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« Reply #5459 on: November 04, 2013, 10:38:40 AM »

Does the narrative of the Serpent in Genesis communicate something about the role of snakes in the evolution of primate vision?

"Oct. 28, 2013 — Was the evolution of high-quality vision in our ancestors driven by the threat of snakes? Work by neuroscientists in Japan and Brazil is supporting the theory originally put forward by Lynne Isbell, professor of anthropology at the University of California, Davis.
....
Isbell originally published her hypothesis in 2006, following up with a book, The Fruit, the Tree and the Serpent (Harvard University Press, 2009) in which she argued that our primate ancestors evolved good, close-range vision primarily to spot and avoid dangerous snakes."

____________

This might have some relevance to the current practice of snake-handling among some Pentecostals.

Some saint wrote that the snake was man's closest friend before the Fall.

In the Coptic Church, we have a famous medieval saint, St. Barsoum the Naked, who lived in a cave where a large snake/serpent (supposedly big enough for people to be scared and stay away) lived.  Legend has it, by his prayers, the serpent was tame, and it became for St. Barsoum not just a pet, but a loyal servant, even trying to protect St. Barsoum from persecution.

This reminds me of our Ethiopian Saint, Abuna Aregawi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuna_Aregawi
http://ethiopiatours.eu/debre-damo-monastery/






Selam

I find it fascinating how Ethiopian remote places of monasticism usually require dangerously climbing to them.  Makes it very hard for visitors to come...probably the point since monks are trying to be separate from the world.  In Egypt, though in the middle of dangerous deserts, car roads are made for pilgrims to easily get to.
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« Reply #5460 on: November 08, 2013, 10:10:08 AM »

I see all you guys are saying is under the assumption that the evolution theory is fact.
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« Reply #5461 on: November 08, 2013, 11:13:50 AM »

I see all you guys are saying is under the assumption that the evolution theory is fact.
It doesn't affect me one way or another if its fact or not. Neither will it affect my faith.

Creationism is not an article of faith, contrary to how the Baptists act.

PP
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« Reply #5462 on: November 08, 2013, 11:17:18 AM »

I see all you guys are saying is under the assumption that the evolution theory is fact.
It doesn't affect me one way or another if its fact or not. Neither will it affect my faith.

Creationism is not an article of faith, contrary to how the Baptists act.

PP
+1

This is the essence of spiritual maturity.
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« Reply #5463 on: November 08, 2013, 11:35:16 AM »

I see all you guys are saying is under the assumption that the evolution theory is fact.
It doesn't affect me one way or another if its fact or not. Neither will it affect my faith.

Creationism is not an article of faith, contrary to how the Baptists act.

PP
+1

This is the essence of spiritual maturity.
No, no, no..I am not spiritually mature. Its kind of like the the kid who always tracks dirt in the house everyday remembers one time to take his shoes off before entering the house ONCE....the next day he's back at it.....


PP
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« Reply #5464 on: November 08, 2013, 12:38:51 PM »

I see all you guys are saying is under the assumption that the evolution theory is fact.
It doesn't affect me one way or another if its fact or not. Neither will it affect my faith.

Creationism is not an article of faith, contrary to how the Baptists act.

PP
+1

This is the essence of spiritual maturity.
No, no, no..I am not spiritually mature. Its kind of like the the kid who always tracks dirt in the house everyday remembers one time to take his shoes off before entering the house ONCE....the next day he's back at it.....


PP
lol!

For this issue, you are.  Knowing that you are well-rooted in the Orthodox faith, and neither Creationist nor Evolution views matter to your faith is a sign of a strong and mature faith.  As for taking off your shoes, let's pray we all do that here in this thread before we walk around this household.
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« Reply #5465 on: November 08, 2013, 09:29:31 PM »

I see all you guys are saying is under the assumption that the evolution theory is fact.
It doesn't affect me one way or another if its fact or not. Neither will it affect my faith.

Creationism is not an article of faith, contrary to how the Baptists act.

PP
+1

Well said.
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« Reply #5466 on: November 18, 2013, 12:10:43 AM »

What evolutionary advantage, if any, was there in human feet sweating so much (as opposed to, say, the knee)?
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« Reply #5467 on: November 18, 2013, 01:04:50 AM »

I see all you guys are saying is under the assumption that the evolution theory is fact.
It doesn't affect me one way or another if its fact or not. Neither will it affect my faith.

Creationism is not an article of faith, contrary to how the Baptists act.

PP

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« Reply #5468 on: November 18, 2013, 02:16:50 PM »

What evolutionary advantage, if any, was there in human feet sweating so much (as opposed to, say, the knee)?
Sweat from the feet would mark one's territory as belonging to you.
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« Reply #5469 on: November 18, 2013, 09:14:44 PM »

What evolutionary advantage, if any, was there in human feet sweating so much (as opposed to, say, the knee)?

The evolutionary advantage is this:

1.  Assuming "normal=non-sweaty feet" (which I don't know personally, but just for fun), somewhere along the lineage of humans, a mutation occurred, where you get sweaty feet.
2.  You didn't die prematurely
3.  You grew up and lived a normal life
4.  You're wearing socks and shoes, so it makes no difference between you and the non-sweaty feet humans
5.  A mate chose you despite your sweaty feet, and you reproduced more children, some with sweaty feet, some without (maybe)
6.  You're fit in an environment that allows sweaty feet humans to strive along with non-sweaty feet humans
7.  If perhaps a debilitating virus with no treatment and 100% mortality comes and can ONLY recognize non-sweaty feet humans, sweaty feet humans become the epitome of "survival of the fittest".
8.  If perhaps in extremely hot climates, non-sweaty feet will have burning, uncomfortable feet, that could make them unattractive to their mates due to their inability to walk, sweaty feet are necessary for a cooling effect, even though the caveat would be smelly feet, at least they can walk and bear kids.

Congrats, you may now look at the bright side and enjoy your sweaty feet  Wink
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« Reply #5470 on: November 19, 2013, 12:00:19 PM »



: NCSE
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« Reply #5471 on: November 20, 2013, 03:40:55 AM »


Thanks, I was just curious is all. I was watching a TV show a while back and it talked about this parasite that (after going through some processes like growing inside an insect) waits on the ground for a human host. Then when a bare-footed human walks on it it attaches itself and burrows into the new host/human. Anyway, that just got me to wondering about why we have feet like we do, as opposed to very hard feet. How I got sidetracked to sweat I don't recall now.   Cheesy
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« Reply #5472 on: November 20, 2013, 03:41:43 AM »

What evolutionary advantage, if any, was there in human feet sweating so much (as opposed to, say, the knee)?
Sweat from the feet would mark one's territory as belonging to you.

I usually do something different, but I guess that'd work!  Cool
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« Reply #5473 on: November 24, 2013, 10:06:32 PM »


Thanks, I was just curious is all. I was watching a TV show a while back and it talked about this parasite that (after going through some processes like growing inside an insect) waits on the ground for a human host. Then when a bare-footed human walks on it it attaches itself and burrows into the new host/human. Anyway, that just got me to wondering about why we have feet like we do, as opposed to very hard feet. How I got sidetracked to sweat I don't recall now.   Cheesy
We do not have hard feet because we tend to pamper them in socks and shoes.  My brother moved to Thailand for a year or two a while back and decided to go 100% barefoot while he lived there.  When he came back, the soles of his feet were rock hard. That is probably TMI, but if we walked around fully barefoot, our feet would be just like a monkeys.
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« Reply #5474 on: November 25, 2013, 01:24:55 AM »

Personally, I think that the supernatural nature of creation casts doubt on the truth of scientific theories related to the evolution of man and the age and genesis of the Earth and universe. Science is the investigation of natural phenomena, but the creation of the universe and life were supernatural events. If one investigates a supernatural event with the presumption that is natural, who knows what he will come up with? As has been mentioned in the thread before, if Adam were created an adult, he still had the age of an infant. If one looked at him with the presumption that his birth was natural, they would come to a conclusion regarding his age that would be incorrect. The observable data would yield an incorrect understanding because the issue at hand was approached improperly. I think something similar is occurring with science and evolution, etc. Scientists are looking at the result of supernatural events and then trying to reconstruct the natural chains of events which brought them about, which do not exist. Of course, within the process of science alone, these theories will be valid, as there is not a way to scientifically demonstrate that the events in question are supernatural. But that of course does not mean that said theories are true, due to the reasons I stated. Likewise I do not see the evidence used to support them to be a compelling reason to accept them.
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« Reply #5475 on: November 25, 2013, 03:19:47 AM »

I think it may be important to note that in regards to this whole Christianity/Evolution thing, many people often confuse Evolution with Abiogenesis--which is a different field of scientific study. Evolution shows how one form of life evolves into another--how we get biodiversity--Abiogenesis is the study of where life came from and how it all started, which is still in its infancy. I think that Christianity's issue is not so much with evolution, but it is more so with abiogenesis and the origin of man.
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« Reply #5476 on: November 25, 2013, 05:03:16 AM »

Personally, I think that the supernatural nature of creation casts doubt on the truth of scientific theories related to the evolution of man and the age and genesis of the Earth and universe. Science is the investigation of natural phenomena, but the creation of the universe and life were supernatural events. If one investigates a supernatural event with the presumption that is natural, who knows what he will come up with? As has been mentioned in the thread before, if Adam were created an adult, he still had the age of an infant. If one looked at him with the presumption that his birth was natural, they would come to a conclusion regarding his age that would be incorrect. The observable data would yield an incorrect understanding because the issue at hand was approached improperly. I think something similar is occurring with science and evolution, etc. Scientists are looking at the result of supernatural events and then trying to reconstruct the natural chains of events which brought them about, which do not exist. Of course, within the process of science alone, these theories will be valid, as there is not a way to scientifically demonstrate that the events in question are supernatural. But that of course does not mean that said theories are true, due to the reasons I stated. Likewise I do not see the evidence used to support them to be a compelling reason to accept them.

Excellent points.


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« Reply #5477 on: November 25, 2013, 07:07:03 PM »

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« Reply #5478 on: November 25, 2013, 07:23:27 PM »


lol!
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« Reply #5479 on: November 27, 2013, 08:30:01 PM »



Especially since they came from the meat-eating theropod dinosaurs.  I bet turkey tastes so much better than tyrannosaurs.  Tongue
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« Reply #5480 on: November 27, 2013, 08:38:08 PM »

Especially since they came from the meat-eating theropod dinosaurs.  I bet turkey tastes so much better than tyrannosaurs.  Tongue

I hope you don't plan on taking the long weekend off, Trisagion.  You've been absent too long and have a lot to catch up on. 
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« Reply #5481 on: November 27, 2013, 10:19:44 PM »

Personally, I think that the supernatural nature of creation casts doubt on the truth of scientific theories related to the evolution of man and the age and genesis of the Earth and universe. Science is the investigation of natural phenomena, but the creation of the universe and life were supernatural events. If one investigates a supernatural event with the presumption that is natural, who knows what he will come up with? As has been mentioned in the thread before, if Adam were created an adult, he still had the age of an infant. If one looked at him with the presumption that his birth was natural, they would come to a conclusion regarding his age that would be incorrect. The observable data would yield an incorrect understanding because the issue at hand was approached improperly. I think something similar is occurring with science and evolution, etc. Scientists are looking at the result of supernatural events and then trying to reconstruct the natural chains of events which brought them about, which do not exist. Of course, within the process of science alone, these theories will be valid, as there is not a way to scientifically demonstrate that the events in question are supernatural. But that of course does not mean that said theories are true, due to the reasons I stated. Likewise I do not see the evidence used to support them to be a compelling reason to accept them.

Excellent points.


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Can you highlight which points? Is it really all of them?
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« Reply #5482 on: November 28, 2013, 05:54:35 PM »

Can you highlight which points? Is it really all of them?

I really only had one: that it isn't possible to find a natural cause for a supernatural event. You could try, and you could make theories out of the observable data, but you would not come to a conclusion that is true. I believe Scripture and the Holy Fathers teach that creation is supernatural, so I don't see a reason to accept a natural explanation for it. I don't think a natural explanation is possible. It's like trying to explain scientifically how Christ raised someone from the dead.

I think some great points were made earlier in the thread as well, about how we after the Fall, are cut off from the paradisaical pre-Fall world. It's not something that we are capable of ascertaining through natural investigation. Looking at the way the world exists now, and trying to extend this back before the Fall in a uniform manner will yield incorrect results.
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« Reply #5483 on: November 29, 2013, 09:29:16 PM »

Especially since they came from the meat-eating theropod dinosaurs.  I bet turkey tastes so much better than tyrannosaurs.  Tongue

I hope you don't plan on taking the long weekend off, Trisagion.  You've been absent too long and have a lot to catch up on. 
I am overwhelmed by the number of threads that I am backlogged on and have no idea how to catch back up again.  Sad
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« Reply #5484 on: December 03, 2013, 04:38:21 PM »

Have you guys seen this presentation by Stephen Meyer (supporter of ID) regarding the workings of a cell? Fascinating stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7Vf6MvBiz8
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« Reply #5485 on: December 30, 2013, 05:59:02 PM »

According to a new Pew Research Center analysis, six-in-ten Americans (60%) say that “humans and other living things have evolved over time,” while a third (33%) reject the idea of evolution, saying that “humans and other living things have existed in their present form since the beginning of time.” The share of the general public that says that humans have evolved over time is about the same as it was in 2009, when Pew Research last asked the question.
....
A majority of white evangelical Protestants (64%) and half of black Protestants (50%) say that humans have existed in their present form since the beginning of time. But in other large religious groups, a minority holds this view. In fact, nearly eight-in-ten white mainline Protestants (78%) say that humans and other living things have evolved over time. Three-quarters of the religiously unaffiliated (76%) and 68% of white non-Hispanic Catholics say the same. About half of Hispanic Catholics (53%) believe that humans have evolved over time, while 31% reject that idea.

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« Reply #5486 on: December 30, 2013, 06:28:58 PM »

...that “humans and other living things have existed in their present form since the beginning of time.”
Oh yeah?  Then how come I can't play the oboe?
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« Reply #5487 on: December 30, 2013, 06:43:15 PM »

...that “humans and other living things have existed in their present form since the beginning of time.”
Oh yeah?  Then how come I can't play the oboe?
Interesting question for your 666th post.
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« Reply #5488 on: December 31, 2013, 08:14:50 AM »

As a Nigerian priest observed in my hearing, "I am not descended from any monkey". Lots of people believe many things, doesn't make them true though. And evidence in any field is subject to interpretation.

I wouldn't want anyone convicted on the basis of my analysis of fingerprint evidence. My interpretation of an X-Ray or scan might be more useful.
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« Reply #5489 on: December 31, 2013, 08:55:17 AM »

As a Nigerian priest observed in my hearing, "I am not descended from any monkey".
He's right. Homo sapiens did not descend from a monkey; we descended from Homo heidelbergensis. On that, we agree.
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