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Question: Do you believe that the acount of genesis in the Old testament should be taken literally?
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Author Topic: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy  (Read 344536 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #5400 on: October 21, 2013, 03:29:22 PM »

any time you read the Bible you are gleaning some sort of interpretation from it unless you are reading in an unknown foreign language at which point, it is all just unintelligible gibberish.

Which is still an interpretation.
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« Reply #5401 on: October 21, 2013, 03:29:59 PM »

Honest question.  To those who are against evolution, have any of you read the entire Origin of the Species by Darwin?  I'm not talking about the bits that people pull out of it, but the actual whole book?

There are many people against what they think Darwin taught, but if you read what he ACTUALLY wrote, it is not really that horrifying or an assault on religion in any respect.
When I hear someone start ranting about Darwin, I know they're not really that well versed in evolutionary theory. Yes, he made an important contribution to the field in his day, but it's like talking about astronomy and physics while using the Tychonic model of the universe.

On a different note but related to this thread, apparently the face of pop-Creationism cites Michael Crichton as a source in his textbook.
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« Reply #5402 on: October 21, 2013, 03:46:21 PM »

Quote
Truth, what do you mean about interpreting scripture is a bad idea?  Does he mean interpreting it literally vs metaphorically is bad?  If you say interpreting scripture in general is bad, then I don't think I follow as any time you read the Bible you are gleaning some sort of interpretation from it unless you are reading in an unknown foreign language at which point, it is all just unintelligible gibberish.

ah shoot! I meant "interpreting scripture too literally"
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« Reply #5403 on: October 21, 2013, 03:51:03 PM »

Quote
Truth, what do you mean about interpreting scripture is a bad idea?  Does he mean interpreting it literally vs metaphorically is bad?  If you say interpreting scripture in general is bad, then I don't think I follow as any time you read the Bible you are gleaning some sort of interpretation from it unless you are reading in an unknown foreign language at which point, it is all just unintelligible gibberish.

ah shoot! I meant "interpreting scripture too literally"

And think once anyone gets serious about reading the "literal / figurative" divide will quickly find its way out the door.
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« Reply #5404 on: October 21, 2013, 04:32:42 PM »

I blame William the Conqueror for British Imperialism and thus for Darwinism and Nazism.

William the Conqueror = the First Nazi.

Poor William the Tanner, he certainly brought the Anglo-Saxon world to its' knees. And there are those who hate for this. But to blame him for Brit Imperialism, surely not. And for Darwinism and National Socialism, your tongue is firmly in your check. Roll Eyes

One historical matter of record he did leave us, the Domesday Book.
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« Reply #5405 on: October 21, 2013, 04:56:25 PM »

I blame William the Conqueror for British Imperialism and thus for Darwinism and Nazism.

William the Conqueror = the First Nazi.

Poor William the Tanner, he certainly brought the Anglo-Saxon world to its' knees. And there are those who hate for this. But to blame him for Brit Imperialism, surely not. And for Darwinism and National Socialism, your tongue is firmly in your check. Roll Eyes

One historical matter of record he did leave us, the Domesday Book.
lol, I was just having a bit of fun.
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« Reply #5406 on: October 22, 2013, 12:44:12 AM »

Jumping back on the coaster... Roll Eyes

Death is not natural to creation, not as principle, not as biological fact. it is a foreign body, a parasite, a shadow. It is absence and negation.

We need to let our faith guide us here:

What is man? Man is a unity of Soul and Body, he is literally Psychosomatic (Psyche-Soma, soul-body). The holy fathers and our faith CLEARLY teaches us that our highest goal is Theosis, attainment of unity with Christ through participation in him by grace (The uncreated divine power of God), this union is both spiritual, and BODILY. In the resurrection, we will receive a new body which replace this mortal body subject to death and decay. But if that is the case, then we must also assume that our CURRENT mode of existence, as a Soul hypostatically united to a body subject to corruption is FOREIGN. Also, the human soul existing in paradise, although blessed and ecstatic is in an UNNATURAL condition. The soul was not created to be ABSENT from the body, but to ANIMATE a body, meaning, since purpose is what determines nature, that a discarnate soul is living in a state contrary to nature. Therefore PHYSICAL DEATH is unnatural, MEANING it came about only through an alteration of the original course of nature; but there is no purely natural force or merely physical event that could cause a spiritual rupture in man, therefore this event must be a fundamentally spiritual event that fundamentally altered the nature of the Soul's relation to the body, therefore inviting into the material world:
DEATH.

See Genesis.

Mankind handed dominion over nature to the devil, so that until the Incarnation of the Logos, he was the god of this world as the scripture teaches.
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« Reply #5407 on: October 22, 2013, 07:52:32 AM »

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but as you will note, you addressed death in its relationship to mankind.  I agree that man was not created for death, but that does not mean that animals, bacteria, plants, etc cannot have death in their natural cycle.
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« Reply #5408 on: October 22, 2013, 08:49:06 AM »

I blame William the Conqueror for British Imperialism and thus for Darwinism and Nazism.

William the Conqueror = the First Nazi.

Arrrghh! <In order to save on band-width just *imagine* a double face-palm here>

 No, the Anglo-Saxon/Norman is in another thread!

And besides What about the coming of the Angles, Saxons and Jutes to Britain?  What about the Roman legions invading Britain?
Why not the invasions in the mist of legend of the Celts? 

SIGH
Do the Celts have legends about their 'invasion' of Albion?

The Scots emigrating from Ireland to what is now called Scotland where the Picts lived for one.
http://archive.archaeology.org/0107/abstracts/scotland.html

And considering the islands of the area, Britain, Ireland, Man, the Orkneys and Shetlands with people coming from other places there were the Celtic peoples who came from the European mainland. Then there are the legends from the Irish Book of Invasions of such in-comers as the Fir Bolg, the Tuatha de Danann and the Milesians/Sons of Mil.
  http://www.donaldcorrell.com/tales/invasions.html
 

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« Reply #5409 on: October 23, 2013, 01:47:21 AM »

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but as you will note, you addressed death in its relationship to mankind.  I agree that man was not created for death, but that does not mean that animals, bacteria, plants, etc cannot have death in their natural cycle.

I think there is a clear difference between the death of animals and humans compared to the "death" of plants. Plants are naturally regenerative, whereas animals and humans are not. We reproduce after our kind, but we don't regenerate new fingers, toes, hands, and arms when they are severed. So I don't view plants being digested by animals prior to the fall as being an indication that death existed prior to the fall. Scripture also says that "Life is in the blood." [Leviticus 17:11] I also find it disturbing that some would essentially equate digested fruit with the death of human beings in an attempt to argue that death existed prior to sin.


Selam
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« Reply #5410 on: October 23, 2013, 08:02:45 AM »

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but as you will note, you addressed death in its relationship to mankind.  I agree that man was not created for death, but that does not mean that animals, bacteria, plants, etc cannot have death in their natural cycle.

I think there is a clear difference between the death of animals and humans compared to the "death" of plants. Plants are naturally regenerative, whereas animals and humans are not. We reproduce after our kind, but we don't regenerate new fingers, toes, hands, and arms when they are severed. So I don't view plants being digested by animals prior to the fall as being an indication that death existed prior to the fall. Scripture also says that "Life is in the blood." [Leviticus 17:11] I also find it disturbing that some would essentially equate digested fruit with the death of human beings in an attempt to argue that death existed prior to sin.

Selam

I'm not sure what you mean by naturally regenerative.  When deer get into my garden and eat the tomato plants, there is no regeneration.  They tear those things out of the ground and chomp them up.  They aren't coming back. I do see you point, however, about the distinction between blood based organisms and non-blood based organisms. God established Adam and Eve as something special. They were in His image.  Nothing else can claim that.  They were not intended to die, but they clearly knew what death was.  Otherwise, why would God threaten them with death if they ate the forbidden fruit?
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« Reply #5411 on: October 23, 2013, 08:31:38 AM »

Where is 'the missing link'? Has it been found?
people will go on believing in a theory that has not been fully proven. Anything to dismiss the existence of The God.
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« Reply #5412 on: October 23, 2013, 08:37:53 AM »

Where is 'the missing link'? Has it been found?
people will go on believing in a theory that has not been fully proven. Anything to dismiss the existence of The God.

How can you find a missing link?  If you find it, it wouldn't be missing anymore.  Wink
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« Reply #5413 on: October 23, 2013, 08:49:26 AM »

Where is 'the missing link'? Has it been found?
people will go on believing in a theory that has not been fully proven. Anything to dismiss the existence of The God.

How can you find a missing link?  If you find it, it wouldn't be missing anymore.  Wink

Has anyone filed a missing links report with the police? police
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« Reply #5414 on: October 23, 2013, 08:55:02 AM »

With all the things I saw and the rituals I took apart in while I was a pagan, plus what lead to me becoming an Orthodox Christian I can not not believe in God.
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« Reply #5415 on: October 23, 2013, 09:00:12 AM »

With all the things I saw and the rituals I took apart in while I was a pagan, plus what lead to me becoming an Orthodox Christian I can not not believe in God.

My mistake, I read the double negative too quickly. You can not BUT believe in God, got it. Sorry.
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« Reply #5416 on: October 23, 2013, 09:04:35 AM »

With all the things I saw and the rituals I took apart in while I was a pagan, plus what lead to me becoming an Orthodox Christian I can not not believe in God.
This may be true, but it doesn't have anything to do with creationism vs evolution.  Evolution does not eliminate the possibility of God.
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« Reply #5417 on: October 23, 2013, 09:11:47 AM »

With all the things I saw and the rituals I took apart in while I was a pagan, plus what lead to me becoming an Orthodox Christian I can not not believe in God.
This may be true, but it doesn't have anything to do with creationism vs evolution.  Evolution does not eliminate the possibility of God.

Does it not do that by replacing creator with chance?
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« Reply #5418 on: October 23, 2013, 09:21:38 AM »

With all the things I saw and the rituals I took apart in while I was a pagan, plus what lead to me becoming an Orthodox Christian I can not not believe in God.
This may be true, but it doesn't have anything to do with creationism vs evolution.  Evolution does not eliminate the possibility of God.

Does it not do that by replacing creator with chance?
No. It states that inherited characteristics of biological populations can change as time goes on.  It does not say anything about the origin of organisms.
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« Reply #5419 on: October 23, 2013, 09:29:34 AM »

Where is 'the missing link'? Has it been found?
people will go on believing in a theory that has not been fully proven. Anything to dismiss the existence of The God.

How can you find a missing link?  If you find it, it wouldn't be missing anymore.  Wink

Has anyone filed a missing links report with the police? police

Give me a few details and I'll pop down the Jewellry Quarter and get the silversmith to knock up a replacement.  Grin

Reporting to the police? Hmmmm, can see more than a few jurisdiction problems there.  police
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« Reply #5420 on: October 23, 2013, 08:05:01 PM »

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but as you will note, you addressed death in its relationship to mankind.  I agree that man was not created for death, but that does not mean that animals, bacteria, plants, etc cannot have death in their natural cycle.

I think there is a clear difference between the death of animals and humans compared to the "death" of plants. Plants are naturally regenerative, whereas animals and humans are not. We reproduce after our kind, but we don't regenerate new fingers, toes, hands, and arms when they are severed. So I don't view plants being digested by animals prior to the fall as being an indication that death existed prior to the fall. Scripture also says that "Life is in the blood." [Leviticus 17:11] I also find it disturbing that some would essentially equate digested fruit with the death of human beings in an attempt to argue that death existed prior to sin.

Selam

I'm not sure what you mean by naturally regenerative.  When deer get into my garden and eat the tomato plants, there is no regeneration.  They tear those things out of the ground and chomp them up.  They aren't coming back.

This is an example of why I say we must interpret our scientific observations in the context of the fall. Prior to the fall, animals and humans could have easily eaten the regenerative parts of plants without destroying the plants completely.


Selam
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« Reply #5421 on: October 23, 2013, 10:33:50 PM »

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but as you will note, you addressed death in its relationship to mankind.  I agree that man was not created for death, but that does not mean that animals, bacteria, plants, etc cannot have death in their natural cycle.

I think there is a clear difference between the death of animals and humans compared to the "death" of plants. Plants are naturally regenerative, whereas animals and humans are not. We reproduce after our kind, but we don't regenerate new fingers, toes, hands, and arms when they are severed. So I don't view plants being digested by animals prior to the fall as being an indication that death existed prior to the fall. Scripture also says that "Life is in the blood." [Leviticus 17:11] I also find it disturbing that some would essentially equate digested fruit with the death of human beings in an attempt to argue that death existed prior to sin.

Selam

I'm not sure what you mean by naturally regenerative.  When deer get into my garden and eat the tomato plants, there is no regeneration.  They tear those things out of the ground and chomp them up.  They aren't coming back.

This is an example of why I say we must interpret our scientific observations in the context of the fall. Prior to the fall, animals and humans could have easily eaten the regenerative parts of plants without destroying the plants completely.


Selam
In other words, prior to the Fall, humans did not eat root vegetables, like onions or potatoes, since eating them would destroy the whole plant?
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« Reply #5422 on: October 23, 2013, 10:35:40 PM »

Jetavan, I'm truly curious, why do you continue to post in this thread?

I keep asking that here, but no one can tell me why.
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« Reply #5423 on: October 23, 2013, 10:43:02 PM »

Jetavan, I'm truly curious, why do you continue to post in this thread?

I keep asking that here, but no one can tell me why.

Some of us once asked for others threads to exist which precluded the typical creation science derailing. But I guess they won since everything continues to get put here as ever evolving appendix.
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« Reply #5424 on: October 23, 2013, 10:49:23 PM »

Jetavan, I'm truly curious, why do you continue to post in this thread?

I keep asking that here, but no one can tell me why.

Some of us once asked for others threads to exist which precluded the typical creation science derailing. But I guess they won since everything continues to get put here as ever evolving appendix.

Maybe try creating a thread with a highly specific topic and explicitly stating that it is not for discussing the scientific validity of evolutionary theory?
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« Reply #5425 on: October 23, 2013, 10:50:40 PM »

Jetavan, I'm truly curious, why do you continue to post in this thread?

I keep asking that here, but no one can tell me why.

Some of us once asked for others threads to exist which precluded the typical creation science derailing. But I guess they won since everything continues to get put here as ever evolving appendix.

Maybe try creating a thread with a highly specific topic and explicitly stating that it is not for discussing the scientific validity of evolutionary theory?

Think that happened once or something. I just don't understand why homosexuality or whatever isn't a single thread.
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« Reply #5426 on: October 23, 2013, 10:54:54 PM »

Jetavan, I'm truly curious, why do you continue to post in this thread?

I keep asking that here, but no one can tell me why.

Some of us once asked for others threads to exist which precluded the typical creation science derailing. But I guess they won since everything continues to get put here as ever evolving appendix.

Maybe try creating a thread with a highly specific topic and explicitly stating that it is not for discussing the scientific validity of evolutionary theory?

Think that happened once or something. I just don't understand why homosexuality or whatever isn't a single thread.

Did it? I kept waiting for something like it to happen. My participation here is pretty sporadic though so it's not surprising that I may have missed it.
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« Reply #5427 on: October 23, 2013, 10:56:41 PM »

This is an example of why I say we must interpret our scientific observations in the context of the fall. Prior to the fall, animals and humans could have easily eaten the regenerative parts of plants without destroying the plants completely.
Dude, have you hit your head on the balance beam?  
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« Reply #5428 on: October 23, 2013, 10:57:06 PM »

Jetavan, I'm truly curious, why do you continue to post in this thread?

I keep asking that here, but no one can tell me why.

Some of us once asked for others threads to exist which precluded the typical creation science derailing. But I guess they won since everything continues to get put here as ever evolving appendix.

Maybe try creating a thread with a highly specific topic and explicitly stating that it is not for discussing the scientific validity of evolutionary theory?

Think that happened once or something. I just don't understand why homosexuality or whatever isn't a single thread.
Weird. I was just thinking this.

I will suggest it in the better board thread. If rudeness can get four separate threads, homosexuality can get one, right?
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« Reply #5429 on: October 23, 2013, 10:58:58 PM »

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but as you will note, you addressed death in its relationship to mankind.  I agree that man was not created for death, but that does not mean that animals, bacteria, plants, etc cannot have death in their natural cycle.

I think there is a clear difference between the death of animals and humans compared to the "death" of plants. Plants are naturally regenerative, whereas animals and humans are not. We reproduce after our kind, but we don't regenerate new fingers, toes, hands, and arms when they are severed. So I don't view plants being digested by animals prior to the fall as being an indication that death existed prior to the fall. Scripture also says that "Life is in the blood." [Leviticus 17:11] I also find it disturbing that some would essentially equate digested fruit with the death of human beings in an attempt to argue that death existed prior to sin.

Selam

I'm not sure what you mean by naturally regenerative.  When deer get into my garden and eat the tomato plants, there is no regeneration.  They tear those things out of the ground and chomp them up.  They aren't coming back.

This is an example of why I say we must interpret our scientific observations in the context of the fall. Prior to the fall, animals and humans could have easily eaten the regenerative parts of plants without destroying the plants completely.


Selam
In other words, prior to the Fall, humans did not eat root vegetables, like onions or potatoes, since eating them would destroy the whole plant?

Who knows? I imagine there was sufficient nutrition for them apart from root vegetables. After all, God made all kinds of trees that were pleasing to the eye good for food. [Genesis 2:9] But even if they did eat root vegetables - which is pure speculation - I still think it's quite a stretch to equate a consumed potato with human death.


Selam
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« Reply #5430 on: October 23, 2013, 10:59:47 PM »

I still think it's quite a stretch to equate a consumed potato with human death.
Yet it's not a stretch on them consuming regenerative parts of plants only?
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« Reply #5431 on: October 23, 2013, 11:04:22 PM »

I still think it's quite a stretch to equate a consumed potato with human death.
Yet it's not a stretch on them consuming regenerative parts of plants only?

All we can we assert with confidence is that prior to the fall animals and humans were omnivores. Theologically, death entered the world through sin. Therefore, I think it's a huge stretch to say that death existed prior to the fall because animals and humans "killed" plants by eating them.


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« Reply #5432 on: October 23, 2013, 11:28:19 PM »

Jetavan, I'm truly curious, why do you continue to post in this thread?

I keep asking that here, but no one can tell me why.
Do you mean, why did I ask about root vegetables?
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« Reply #5433 on: October 24, 2013, 12:20:30 AM »

I still think it's quite a stretch to equate a consumed potato with human death.
Yet it's not a stretch on them consuming regenerative parts of plants only?

All we can we assert with confidence is that prior to the fall animals and humans were omnivores. Theologically, death entered the world through sin. Therefore, I think it's a huge stretch to say that death existed prior to the fall because animals and humans "killed" plants by eating them.


Selam

Gebre,
 
One can argue that every creature on earth prior to the fall was spiritually (for want of a better term) nourished directly from God. This is what I mean by stasis, animals designed for another lifestyle that are just sitting around.

If one denies this, then the ecology of a system without death does not work. If you decide that organisms that by our current definition are living organisms are in fact not living then everything  worthwhile in this conversation might fall apart due to arbitrary rules.

I have written before that there is no organism more fit and evolved for survival than bacteria (and archaea). We cannot survive without them and they can readily survive without us. Within a species they are not identical due to the error rate of DNA replication (just like we are not identical). Some bacteria have sex, some form into multicellular organisms (akin to mushrooms or long stringy-like things in the case of cyanobacteria) with specialized differentiated cells. The fact is that they die if there is no water around, they crack and lyse when some animal poops on dry land. Since bison, that need the bacteria to digest cellulose do not live in water, how do the bacteria survive?

In this forum I have been informed that they are not included in the term living and the same goes with plants.

I know they are alive.

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« Reply #5434 on: October 25, 2013, 04:47:23 PM »

Sciense can't prove evolution. There are many mistakes...
Now you say What???
Well, science means that something can be proved by act.
1+1=2 In all cases...
Theories destroy science. Because not proven theories are not science in any sense.
The theory of the stars which was used as sure and was used for many decades now was proven wrong because they found a planet at a double star. According to the theory that was not possible. So they scientists now search for new theory.
Where is the mistake? Sciense use non proven theories nowdays without having doubts...
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« Reply #5435 on: October 25, 2013, 05:30:48 PM »

Theories destroy science. Because not proven theories are not science in any sense.
The theory of the stars which was used as sure and was used for many decades now was proven wrong because they found a planet at a double star. According to the theory that was not possible. So they scientists now search for new theory.
Where is the mistake? Sciense use non proven theories nowdays without having doubts...
Wow.  Simply, wow.

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Well, science means that something can be proved by act.
1+1=2 In all cases...
All cases?  Even in base 2?
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« Reply #5436 on: October 25, 2013, 05:49:13 PM »

Theories destroy science. Because not proven theories are not science in any sense.
The theory of the stars which was used as sure and was used for many decades now was proven wrong because they found a planet at a double star. According to the theory that was not possible. So they scientists now search for new theory.
Where is the mistake? Sciense use non proven theories nowdays without having doubts...
Wow.  Simply, wow.

Quote
Well, science means that something can be proved by act.
1+1=2 In all cases...
All cases?  Even in base 2?
laugh
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« Reply #5437 on: October 25, 2013, 07:09:36 PM »

With all the things I saw and the rituals I took apart in while I was a pagan, plus what lead to me becoming an Orthodox Christian I can not not believe in God.
This may be true, but it doesn't have anything to do with creationism vs evolution.  Evolution does not eliminate the possibility of God.

Does it not do that by replacing creator with chance?
No. It states that inherited characteristics of biological populations can change as time goes on.  It does not say anything about the origin of organisms.

Funny how people keep pointing that out and getting politely ignored.  Cool
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« Reply #5438 on: October 25, 2013, 07:42:52 PM »

With all the things I saw and the rituals I took apart in while I was a pagan, plus what lead to me becoming an Orthodox Christian I can not not believe in God.
This may be true, but it doesn't have anything to do with creationism vs evolution.  Evolution does not eliminate the possibility of God.

Does it not do that by replacing creator with chance?
No. It states that inherited characteristics of biological populations can change as time goes on.  It does not say anything about the origin of organisms.

Funny how people keep pointing that out and getting politely ignored.  Cool

I've heard that the possibility of Evolution to the extent that it has occurred is so impossible that it's a miracle that it happened and therefore evidence for God. And it's exactly as TheTrisagion pointed out. Some more 'radical' Evolutionists would try to trace Evolution back to the 'Primordial soup' but most don't. Because as you go further back, it's harder to understand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUxm8dXLRpA
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« Reply #5439 on: October 25, 2013, 08:21:58 PM »

I still think it's quite a stretch to equate a consumed potato with human death.
Yet it's not a stretch on them consuming regenerative parts of plants only?

All we can we assert with confidence is that prior to the fall animals and humans were omnivores. Theologically, death entered the world through sin. Therefore, I think it's a huge stretch to say that death existed prior to the fall because animals and humans "killed" plants by eating them.


Selam

Gebre,
 
One can argue that every creature on earth prior to the fall was spiritually (for want of a better term) nourished directly from God. This is what I mean by stasis, animals designed for another lifestyle that are just sitting around.


I don't agree that creatures being nourished directly from God equates to stasis, if you define stasis by "just sitting around." I think the pre-fall condition of humans and animals was more vibrant and alive than the condition post fall.
But I may be misunderstanding you here.



I have written before that there is no organism more fit and evolved for survival than bacteria (and archaea). We cannot survive without them and they can readily survive without us. Within a species they are not identical due to the error rate of DNA replication (just like we are not identical). Some bacteria have sex, some form into multicellular organisms (akin to mushrooms or long stringy-like things in the case of cyanobacteria) with specialized differentiated cells. The fact is that they die if there is no water around, they crack and lyse when some animal poops on dry land. Since bison, that need the bacteria to digest cellulose do not live in water, how do the bacteria survive?

In this forum I have been informed that they are not included in the term living and the same goes with plants.

I know they are alive.


I don't deny that plants have biological life. What I am arguing is that biological plant life is radically different from human and animal life. And I still point out that it is merely speculation to assume that plants "died" prior to the fall. But assuming they did, that still does not prove that death in the scriptural and patristic sense existed before sin. Evolutionary theory is predicated on the process of death, and that violates our Orthodox theology which teaches that death was the result of sin, not the result of a divinely-initiated evolutionary process.


Selam
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« Reply #5440 on: October 25, 2013, 08:47:27 PM »

To be honest, I think that you are all full of poop in this regard. I don't find any of this pseudo-science Protestant stuff very convincing, and I also don't have much respect for these evolution-is-100%-compatible-with-Orthodoxy moderndox people. If someone seriously examines it, they will see that evolution and theology do in fact conflict to some extent. The way I see it is like this; if you can accept that bread and wine becomes God in a mystical way that we can't quite understand and that God is 3 yet 1, why can't you accept that there is some Divine, mystical mystery to Creation that we can't quite understand? I at least find this much more sincere than the pseudo science that Creationists rely on.
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« Reply #5441 on: October 25, 2013, 08:55:33 PM »

To be honest, I think that you are all full of poop in this regard. I don't find any of this pseudo-science Protestant stuff very convincing, and I also don't have much respect for these evolution-is-100%-compatible-with-Orthodoxy moderndox people. If someone seriously examines it, they will see that evolution and theology do in fact conflict to some extent. The way I see it is like this; if you can accept that bread and wine becomes God in a mystical way that we can't quite understand and that God is 3 yet 1, why can't you accept that there is some Divine, mystical mystery to Creation that we can't quite understand? I at least find this much more sincere than the pseudo science that Creationists rely on.

I posted the same analogy with the Eucharist a few million posts ago.  Smiley
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« Reply #5442 on: October 25, 2013, 09:19:06 PM »

To be honest, I think that you are all full of poop in this regard. I don't find any of this pseudo-science Protestant stuff very convincing, and I also don't have much respect for these evolution-is-100%-compatible-with-Orthodoxy moderndox people. If someone seriously examines it, they will see that evolution and theology do in fact conflict to some extent. The way I see it is like this; if you can accept that bread and wine becomes God in a mystical way that we can't quite understand and that God is 3 yet 1, why can't you accept that there is some Divine, mystical mystery to Creation that we can't quite understand? I at least find this much more sincere than the pseudo science that Creationists rely on.

Works for me, JamesR. Well said.
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« Reply #5443 on: October 25, 2013, 10:18:10 PM »

To be honest, I think that you are all full of poop in this regard. I don't find any of this pseudo-science Protestant stuff very convincing, and I also don't have much respect for these evolution-is-100%-compatible-with-Orthodoxy moderndox people. If someone seriously examines it, they will see that evolution and theology do in fact conflict to some extent. The way I see it is like this; if you can accept that bread and wine becomes God in a mystical way that we can't quite understand and that God is 3 yet 1, why can't you accept that there is some Divine, mystical mystery to Creation that we can't quite understand? I at least find this much more sincere than the pseudo science that Creationists rely on.

Not sure who you are addressing here. I certainly have never advocated "Creationist science." I am 100% in favor of science. I object to  philosophy that masquerades as science, and there are evolutionists and creationists who are guilty of this. My main concern is upholding Orthodox theology. And to make God - rather than sin - responsible for death is blasphemous. I'm with you completely that the origin of life is a divinely authored mystery. Let's allow science to explain what it can while acknowledging that science has limits. Philosophical plausibility does not equal scientific reality. Evolutionists conflate the two.


Selam
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« Reply #5444 on: October 26, 2013, 11:08:35 PM »

To be honest, I think that you are all full of poop in this regard. I don't find any of this pseudo-science Protestant stuff very convincing, and I also don't have much respect for these evolution-is-100%-compatible-with-Orthodoxy moderndox people. If someone seriously examines it, they will see that evolution and theology do in fact conflict to some extent. The way I see it is like this; if you can accept that bread and wine becomes God in a mystical way that we can't quite understand and that God is 3 yet 1, why can't you accept that there is some Divine, mystical mystery to Creation that we can't quite understand? I at least find this much more sincere than the pseudo science that Creationists rely on.

Not sure who you are addressing here. I certainly have never advocated "Creationist science." I am 100% in favor of science. I object to  philosophy that masquerades as science, and there are evolutionists and creationists who are guilty of this. My main concern is upholding Orthodox theology. And to make God - rather than sin - responsible for death is blasphemous. I'm with you completely that the origin of life is a divinely authored mystery. Let's allow science to explain what it can while acknowledging that science has limits. Philosophical plausibility does not equal scientific reality. Evolutionists conflate the two.


Selam

I hope it is not addressed to you as well.

When we discuss this issue you should know that I have never taken an evolutionary biology course nor an ecology course. I possibly will not be able to answer particular questions in these fields. What I do know is how evolution occurs.

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