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Question: Do you believe that the acount of genesis in the Old testament should be taken literally?
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Author Topic: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy  (Read 324147 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #5355 on: October 20, 2013, 04:26:48 AM »

I believe that evolution and the Scriptures are mutually exclusive in so much that they answer different questions.

I also think that Darwin caused inexcusable harm by what can be derived logically from his theory. Whether it be from eugenics to social darwinism, it has shaped our world for the worse. It places little value and worth on human beings. I can't help but shift some of the blame on to Darwin for Nazism. It would have been better to repent for his blunder, but the damage is done.

But really that is my objection against people using Darwin's theory, even more so dogmatically. I have no problem seeing in the world how things evolved on a micro and macro level, it makes the most sense to me.

Again evolution vs. creationism, or whatever is nonsense. Christ is risen. Sorry if that sounds like a cop out.

We can't blame people for things they haven't done. The only thing Darwin did was to come up with a Scientific theory. I don't blame Karl Marx for the Soviet Union either.
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« Reply #5356 on: October 20, 2013, 04:35:32 AM »

I believe that evolution and the Scriptures are mutually exclusive in so much that they answer different questions.

I also think that Darwin caused inexcusable harm by what can be derived logically from his theory. Whether it be from eugenics to social darwinism, it has shaped our world for the worse. It places little value and worth on human beings. I can't help but shift some of the blame on to Darwin for Nazism. It would have been better to repent for his blunder, but the damage is done.

But really that is my objection against people using Darwin's theory, even more so dogmatically. I have no problem seeing in the world how things evolved on a micro and macro level, it makes the most sense to me.

Again evolution vs. creationism, or whatever is nonsense. Christ is risen. Sorry if that sounds like a cop out.

We can't blame people for things they haven't done. The only thing Darwin did was to come up with a Scientific theory. I don't blame Karl Marx for the Soviet Union either.

Ideas have consequences. That's why Orthodoxy is so important. Unorthodox ideas lead to countless evils. And the theory of evolution is theologically and scientifically unorthodox.


Selam
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« Reply #5357 on: October 20, 2013, 05:04:35 AM »

I believe that evolution and the Scriptures are mutually exclusive in so much that they answer different questions.

I also think that Darwin caused inexcusable harm by what can be derived logically from his theory. Whether it be from eugenics to social darwinism, it has shaped our world for the worse. It places little value and worth on human beings. I can't help but shift some of the blame on to Darwin for Nazism. It would have been better to repent for his blunder, but the damage is done.

But really that is my objection against people using Darwin's theory, even more so dogmatically. I have no problem seeing in the world how things evolved on a micro and macro level, it makes the most sense to me.

Again evolution vs. creationism, or whatever is nonsense. Christ is risen. Sorry if that sounds like a cop out.

We can't blame people for things they haven't done. The only thing Darwin did was to come up with a Scientific theory. I don't blame Karl Marx for the Soviet Union either.

Ideas have consequences. That's why Orthodoxy is so important. Unorthodox ideas lead to countless evils. And the theory of evolution is theologically and scientifically unorthodox.


Selam

That does not justify blaming Darwin for nazism.
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« Reply #5358 on: October 20, 2013, 05:10:27 AM »

I believe that evolution and the Scriptures are mutually exclusive in so much that they answer different questions.

I also think that Darwin caused inexcusable harm by what can be derived logically from his theory. Whether it be from eugenics to social darwinism, it has shaped our world for the worse. It places little value and worth on human beings. I can't help but shift some of the blame on to Darwin for Nazism. It would have been better to repent for his blunder, but the damage is done.

But really that is my objection against people using Darwin's theory, even more so dogmatically. I have no problem seeing in the world how things evolved on a micro and macro level, it makes the most sense to me.

Again evolution vs. creationism, or whatever is nonsense. Christ is risen. Sorry if that sounds like a cop out.

We can't blame people for things they haven't done. The only thing Darwin did was to come up with a Scientific theory. I don't blame Karl Marx for the Soviet Union either.
but it's not a science theory, atleast not when he postulated it at the time
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 05:11:46 AM by Achronos » Logged

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« Reply #5359 on: October 20, 2013, 05:13:50 AM »

I believe that evolution and the Scriptures are mutually exclusive in so much that they answer different questions.

I also think that Darwin caused inexcusable harm by what can be derived logically from his theory. Whether it be from eugenics to social darwinism, it has shaped our world for the worse. It places little value and worth on human beings. I can't help but shift some of the blame on to Darwin for Nazism. It would have been better to repent for his blunder, but the damage is done.

But really that is my objection against people using Darwin's theory, even more so dogmatically. I have no problem seeing in the world how things evolved on a micro and macro level, it makes the most sense to me.

Again evolution vs. creationism, or whatever is nonsense. Christ is risen. Sorry if that sounds like a cop out.

We can't blame people for things they haven't done. The only thing Darwin did was to come up with a Scientific theory. I don't blame Karl Marx for the Soviet Union either.

Ideas have consequences. That's why Orthodoxy is so important. Unorthodox ideas lead to countless evils. And the theory of evolution is theologically and scientifically unorthodox.


Selam

That does not justify blaming Darwin for nazism.
I didn't say blame him 100% for it. But without Darwin, how could Nazism develop?
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« Reply #5360 on: October 20, 2013, 05:15:50 AM »

I believe that evolution and the Scriptures are mutually exclusive in so much that they answer different questions.

I also think that Darwin caused inexcusable harm by what can be derived logically from his theory. Whether it be from eugenics to social darwinism, it has shaped our world for the worse. It places little value and worth on human beings. I can't help but shift some of the blame on to Darwin for Nazism. It would have been better to repent for his blunder, but the damage is done.

But really that is my objection against people using Darwin's theory, even more so dogmatically. I have no problem seeing in the world how things evolved on a micro and macro level, it makes the most sense to me.

Again evolution vs. creationism, or whatever is nonsense. Christ is risen. Sorry if that sounds like a cop out.

We can't blame people for things they haven't done. The only thing Darwin did was to come up with a Scientific theory. I don't blame Karl Marx for the Soviet Union either.

Ideas have consequences. That's why Orthodoxy is so important. Unorthodox ideas lead to countless evils. And the theory of evolution is theologically and scientifically unorthodox.


Selam

That does not justify blaming Darwin for nazism.

Martin Luther was not an iconoclast. He was also devoted to the Virgin Mary. But his heretical ideas lead to iconoclasm and to the disparagement of the Holy Virgin, as well as to countless other heresies. I don't blame Martin Luther for the sins of Jim Jones, but Luther's ideas certainly paved the way.


Selam
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« Reply #5361 on: October 20, 2013, 05:23:26 AM »

I believe that evolution and the Scriptures are mutually exclusive in so much that they answer different questions.

I also think that Darwin caused inexcusable harm by what can be derived logically from his theory. Whether it be from eugenics to social darwinism, it has shaped our world for the worse. It places little value and worth on human beings. I can't help but shift some of the blame on to Darwin for Nazism. It would have been better to repent for his blunder, but the damage is done.

But really that is my objection against people using Darwin's theory, even more so dogmatically. I have no problem seeing in the world how things evolved on a micro and macro level, it makes the most sense to me.

Again evolution vs. creationism, or whatever is nonsense. Christ is risen. Sorry if that sounds like a cop out.

We can't blame people for things they haven't done. The only thing Darwin did was to come up with a Scientific theory. I don't blame Karl Marx for the Soviet Union either.
but it's not a science theory, atleast not when he postulated it at the time


I have quite a different impression, and that wasn't even my point. My point was that we shouldn't go around blaming people for actions that took place long after they died, just because their thoughts and ideas had consequenses which they could never had foreseen.
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« Reply #5362 on: October 20, 2013, 05:26:41 AM »

I believe that evolution and the Scriptures are mutually exclusive in so much that they answer different questions.

I also think that Darwin caused inexcusable harm by what can be derived logically from his theory. Whether it be from eugenics to social darwinism, it has shaped our world for the worse. It places little value and worth on human beings. I can't help but shift some of the blame on to Darwin for Nazism. It would have been better to repent for his blunder, but the damage is done.

But really that is my objection against people using Darwin's theory, even more so dogmatically. I have no problem seeing in the world how things evolved on a micro and macro level, it makes the most sense to me.

Again evolution vs. creationism, or whatever is nonsense. Christ is risen. Sorry if that sounds like a cop out.

We can't blame people for things they haven't done. The only thing Darwin did was to come up with a Scientific theory. I don't blame Karl Marx for the Soviet Union either.

Ideas have consequences. That's why Orthodoxy is so important. Unorthodox ideas lead to countless evils. And the theory of evolution is theologically and scientifically unorthodox.


Selam

That does not justify blaming Darwin for nazism.

Martin Luther was not an iconoclast. He was also devoted to the Virgin Mary. But his heretical ideas lead to iconoclasm and to the disparagement of the Holy Virgin, as well as to countless other heresies. I don't blame Martin Luther for the sins of Jim Jones, but Luther's ideas certainly paved the way.

Selam

You do realise that even if Martin Luther wouldn't have existed the Reformation would still have happened?
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« Reply #5363 on: October 20, 2013, 05:59:04 AM »

I believe that evolution and the Scriptures are mutually exclusive in so much that they answer different questions.

I also think that Darwin caused inexcusable harm by what can be derived logically from his theory. Whether it be from eugenics to social darwinism, it has shaped our world for the worse. It places little value and worth on human beings. I can't help but shift some of the blame on to Darwin for Nazism. It would have been better to repent for his blunder, but the damage is done.

But really that is my objection against people using Darwin's theory, even more so dogmatically. I have no problem seeing in the world how things evolved on a micro and macro level, it makes the most sense to me.

Again evolution vs. creationism, or whatever is nonsense. Christ is risen. Sorry if that sounds like a cop out.

We can't blame people for things they haven't done. The only thing Darwin did was to come up with a Scientific theory. I don't blame Karl Marx for the Soviet Union either.

Ideas have consequences. That's why Orthodoxy is so important. Unorthodox ideas lead to countless evils. And the theory of evolution is theologically and scientifically unorthodox.


Selam

That does not justify blaming Darwin for nazism.

Martin Luther was not an iconoclast. He was also devoted to the Virgin Mary. But his heretical ideas lead to iconoclasm and to the disparagement of the Holy Virgin, as well as to countless other heresies. I don't blame Martin Luther for the sins of Jim Jones, but Luther's ideas certainly paved the way.

Selam

You do realise that even if Martin Luther wouldn't have existed the Reformation would still have happened?

If you're going to steal from Voltaire, at least steal from something less obvious.  Wink



Selam
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« Reply #5364 on: October 20, 2013, 06:44:10 AM »

I believe that evolution and the Scriptures are mutually exclusive in so much that they answer different questions.

I also think that Darwin caused inexcusable harm by what can be derived logically from his theory. Whether it be from eugenics to social darwinism, it has shaped our world for the worse. It places little value and worth on human beings. I can't help but shift some of the blame on to Darwin for Nazism. It would have been better to repent for his blunder, but the damage is done.

But really that is my objection against people using Darwin's theory, even more so dogmatically. I have no problem seeing in the world how things evolved on a micro and macro level, it makes the most sense to me.

Again evolution vs. creationism, or whatever is nonsense. Christ is risen. Sorry if that sounds like a cop out.

We can't blame people for things they haven't done. The only thing Darwin did was to come up with a Scientific theory. I don't blame Karl Marx for the Soviet Union either.
but it's not a science theory, atleast not when he postulated it at the time


I have quite a different impression, and that wasn't even my point. My point was that we shouldn't go around blaming people for actions that took place long after they died, just because their thoughts and ideas had consequenses which they could never had foreseen.
Nonsense. We should blame people that have affected the world in a worse way by their thoughts and ideas.
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« Reply #5365 on: October 20, 2013, 10:06:19 AM »

I believe that evolution and the Scriptures are mutually exclusive in so much that they answer different questions.

I also think that Darwin caused inexcusable harm by what can be derived logically from his theory. Whether it be from eugenics to social darwinism, it has shaped our world for the worse. It places little value and worth on human beings. I can't help but shift some of the blame on to Darwin for Nazism. It would have been better to repent for his blunder, but the damage is done.

But really that is my objection against people using Darwin's theory, even more so dogmatically. I have no problem seeing in the world how things evolved on a micro and macro level, it makes the most sense to me.

Again evolution vs. creationism, or whatever is nonsense. Christ is risen. Sorry if that sounds like a cop out.

We can't blame people for things they haven't done. The only thing Darwin did was to come up with a Scientific theory. I don't blame Karl Marx for the Soviet Union either.

Ideas have consequences. That's why Orthodoxy is so important. Unorthodox ideas lead to countless evils. And the theory of evolution is theologically and scientifically unorthodox.


Selam

That does not justify blaming Darwin for nazism.
I didn't say blame him 100% for it. But without Darwin, how could Nazism develop?
Without British imperialism, how could Darwinism have developed?

Et cetera.
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« Reply #5366 on: October 20, 2013, 10:11:44 AM »

If you're going to steal from Voltaire, at least steal from something less obvious.  Wink

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
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« Reply #5367 on: October 20, 2013, 02:02:51 PM »

I believe that evolution and the Scriptures are mutually exclusive in so much that they answer different questions.

I also think that Darwin caused inexcusable harm by what can be derived logically from his theory. Whether it be from eugenics to social darwinism, it has shaped our world for the worse. It places little value and worth on human beings. I can't help but shift some of the blame on to Darwin for Nazism. It would have been better to repent for his blunder, but the damage is done.

But really that is my objection against people using Darwin's theory, even more so dogmatically. I have no problem seeing in the world how things evolved on a micro and macro level, it makes the most sense to me.

Again evolution vs. creationism, or whatever is nonsense. Christ is risen. Sorry if that sounds like a cop out.

We can't blame people for things they haven't done. The only thing Darwin did was to come up with a Scientific theory. I don't blame Karl Marx for the Soviet Union either.

Ideas have consequences. That's why Orthodoxy is so important. Unorthodox ideas lead to countless evils. And the theory of evolution is theologically and scientifically unorthodox.


Selam

That does not justify blaming Darwin for nazism.
I didn't say blame him 100% for it. But without Darwin, how could Nazism develop?
Without British imperialism, how could Darwinism have developed?

Et cetera.
Let's take it to year zero.

That would make a fun thread.
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« Reply #5368 on: October 20, 2013, 02:15:41 PM »

I blame William the Conqueror for British Imperialism and thus for Darwinism and Nazism.

William the Conqueror = the First Nazi.
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« Reply #5369 on: October 20, 2013, 04:41:42 PM »

But why would there be death before Adam?
Are you asking this question of science or of faith?  Science doesn't attempt to answer the why.
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« Reply #5370 on: October 20, 2013, 05:58:14 PM »

I believe that evolution and the Scriptures are mutually exclusive in so much that they answer different questions.

I also think that Darwin caused inexcusable harm by what can be derived logically from his theory. Whether it be from eugenics to social darwinism, it has shaped our world for the worse. It places little value and worth on human beings. I can't help but shift some of the blame on to Darwin for Nazism. It would have been better to repent for his blunder, but the damage is done.

But really that is my objection against people using Darwin's theory, even more so dogmatically. I have no problem seeing in the world how things evolved on a micro and macro level, it makes the most sense to me.

Again evolution vs. creationism, or whatever is nonsense. Christ is risen. Sorry if that sounds like a cop out.

I can agree with you on this. Our existence is ultimately a mystery. I think all Christians agree that God is the author of this mystery of life. So, it's not a cop out as far as I'm concerned. But just like with theological issues where human logic tries to go beyond sufficient truth (i.e. the language of "two natures," and the filioque), we must be careful not to assert conjecture as truth. I remain open to the scientific plausibility of evolution, but I won't assert it as a fact until it is proven to be factual. And if it is proven to be factual, then I will have to compromise my theology or abandon it altogether, because if evolution is truth then the theology of death entering the world through sin is error.


Selam

I am also against people using Darwin's theory. But most of the people using Darwin's theory are those against evolution. And if you make arguments that deviate from Darwin's theory based on current science, you are rejected from the conversation. It is frustrating.

Evolution is a fact in that we can see it in real time.

Here is what I think is the problem. To reject evolution leads to the concept of a world that is in stasis.

There are whales and fish that only survive on microorganisms. Lions cannot survive on plants for a simple example, their digestive system is designed for a carnivore. Their only way to survive is to be fed by God directly.

There are insects that also live solely on the dead cells that we shed. To take this position is to believe in a world that dandruff is not possible.

I could go on Gebre, but my main gripe is a world that is in stasis with no purpose and I do not include reproduction into this spiritual equation.

I hope what  bothers me is clear.
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« Reply #5371 on: October 20, 2013, 06:25:36 PM »

I blame William the Conqueror for British Imperialism and thus for Darwinism and Nazism.

William the Conqueror = the First Nazi.

Arrrghh! <In order to save on band-width just *imagine* a double face-palm here>

 No, the Anglo-Saxon/Norman is in another thread!

And besides What about the coming of the Angles, Saxons and Jutes to Britain?  What about the Roman legions invading Britain?
Why not the invasions in the mist of legend of the Celts? 

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« Reply #5372 on: October 20, 2013, 06:30:55 PM »

I blame William the Conqueror for British Imperialism and thus for Darwinism and Nazism.

William the Conqueror = the First Nazi.

Arrrghh! <In order to save on band-width just *imagine* a double face-palm here>

 No, the Anglo-Saxon/Norman is in another thread!

And besides What about the coming of the Angles, Saxons and Jutes to Britain?  What about the Roman legions invading Britain?
Why not the invasions in the mist of legend of the Celts? 

SIGH
Do the Celts have legends about their 'invasion' of Albion?
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« Reply #5373 on: October 20, 2013, 06:54:10 PM »

To take this position is to believe in a world that dandruff is not possible.

How I wish you would post more often and I would read it.
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« Reply #5374 on: October 20, 2013, 07:15:54 PM »

To take this position is to believe in a world that dandruff is not possible.

How I wish you would post more often and I would read it.
He killed it.

Lock it up mods.
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« Reply #5375 on: October 20, 2013, 07:49:41 PM »

I believe that evolution and the Scriptures are mutually exclusive in so much that they answer different questions.

I also think that Darwin caused inexcusable harm by what can be derived logically from his theory. Whether it be from eugenics to social darwinism, it has shaped our world for the worse. It places little value and worth on human beings. I can't help but shift some of the blame on to Darwin for Nazism. It would have been better to repent for his blunder, but the damage is done.

But really that is my objection against people using Darwin's theory, even more so dogmatically. I have no problem seeing in the world how things evolved on a micro and macro level, it makes the most sense to me.

Again evolution vs. creationism, or whatever is nonsense. Christ is risen. Sorry if that sounds like a cop out.

I can agree with you on this. Our existence is ultimately a mystery. I think all Christians agree that God is the author of this mystery of life. So, it's not a cop out as far as I'm concerned. But just like with theological issues where human logic tries to go beyond sufficient truth (i.e. the language of "two natures," and the filioque), we must be careful not to assert conjecture as truth. I remain open to the scientific plausibility of evolution, but I won't assert it as a fact until it is proven to be factual. And if it is proven to be factual, then I will have to compromise my theology or abandon it altogether, because if evolution is truth then the theology of death entering the world through sin is error.


Selam

I am also against people using Darwin's theory. But most of the people using Darwin's theory are those against evolution. And if you make arguments that deviate from Darwin's theory based on current science, you are rejected from the conversation. It is frustrating.

Evolution is a fact in that we can see it in real time.

Here is what I think is the problem. To reject evolution leads to the concept of a world that is in stasis.

There are whales and fish that only survive on microorganisms. Lions cannot survive on plants for a simple example, their digestive system is designed for a carnivore. Their only way to survive is to be fed by God directly.

There are insects that also live solely on the dead cells that we shed. To take this position is to believe in a world that dandruff is not possible.

I could go on Gebre, but my main gripe is a world that is in stasis with no purpose and I do not include reproduction into this spiritual equation.

I hope what  bothers me is clear.

The world is constantly in flux. Evolution occurs within species. Adaptation and catastrophism constantly manufacture change. So the rejection of evolution does not lead to the concept of a world that is in stasis.


Selam
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« Reply #5376 on: October 20, 2013, 08:01:33 PM »

Honest question.  To those who are against evolution, have any of you read the entire Origin of the Species by Darwin?  I'm not talking about the bits that people pull out of it, but the actual whole book?

There are many people against what they think Darwin taught, but if you read what he ACTUALLY wrote, it is not really that horrifying or an assault on religion in any respect.
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« Reply #5377 on: October 20, 2013, 08:07:56 PM »

Honest question.  To those who are against evolution, have any of you read the entire Origin of the Species by Darwin?  I'm not talking about the bits that people pull out of it, but the actual whole book?

There are many people against what they think Darwin taught, but if you read what he ACTUALLY wrote, it is not really that horrifying or an assault on religion in any respect.

Yes, got the book and read it. Didn't win me over, so to speak.
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« Reply #5378 on: October 20, 2013, 08:16:13 PM »

Honest question.  To those who are against evolution, have any of you read the entire Origin of the Species by Darwin?  I'm not talking about the bits that people pull out of it, but the actual whole book?

There are many people against what they think Darwin taught, but if you read what he ACTUALLY wrote, it is not really that horrifying or an assault on religion in any respect.

Yes, got the book and read it. Didn't win me over, so to speak.
Not even the chapters on biogeography?
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« Reply #5379 on: October 20, 2013, 08:33:30 PM »


[/quote]Not even the chapters on biogeography?
[/quote]

He did not win me over, but I didn't want to run down to the ecclesiastical hardware store and purchase bell, book and candle as a response either.

Sorry, it is late and I am up for a second night with an infection. So neurones haven't shrunk and been washed by CSF, consequently my brain isn't functioning too well. Sleep deprivation doesn't make one a great conversationalist, I am afraid.

Maybe others who are not held captive by the Theory of Evolution have more interesting responses than mine. Sorry.
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« Reply #5380 on: October 20, 2013, 09:02:55 PM »

Ho hum, 122 pages and no one has, or will, change their minds.

Bottom line: if evolution is true (and it seems to fit most of the known facts), then evolution is a tool in God's creation toolbox and should be respected, and viewed, as such. Like it or not, God doesn't do things the way we think He should.

Also, evolution has nothing to do with how life BEGAN, only with how it developed AFTER it began - so no reason for either side to get all huffy about it.

There - fixed it! New thread now, please? ;-)
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« Reply #5381 on: October 20, 2013, 09:06:09 PM »

Ho hum, 122 pages and no one has, or will, change their minds.

Bottom line: if evolution is true (and it seems to fit most of the known facts), then evolution is a tool in God's creation toolbox and should be respected, and viewed, as such. Like it or not, God doesn't do things the way we think He should.

Also, evolution has nothing to do with how life BEGAN, only with how it developed AFTER it began - so no reason for either side to get all huffy about it.

There - fixed it! New thread now, please? ;-)
What?!?!  We still have another good 180 pages to go in this discussion.  Wink
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« Reply #5382 on: October 20, 2013, 09:07:34 PM »

I believe that evolution and the Scriptures are mutually exclusive in so much that they answer different questions.

I also think that Darwin caused inexcusable harm by what can be derived logically from his theory. Whether it be from eugenics to social darwinism, it has shaped our world for the worse. It places little value and worth on human beings. I can't help but shift some of the blame on to Darwin for Nazism. It would have been better to repent for his blunder, but the damage is done.

But really that is my objection against people using Darwin's theory, even more so dogmatically. I have no problem seeing in the world how things evolved on a micro and macro level, it makes the most sense to me.

Again evolution vs. creationism, or whatever is nonsense. Christ is risen. Sorry if that sounds like a cop out.

I can agree with you on this. Our existence is ultimately a mystery. I think all Christians agree that God is the author of this mystery of life. So, it's not a cop out as far as I'm concerned. But just like with theological issues where human logic tries to go beyond sufficient truth (i.e. the language of "two natures," and the filioque), we must be careful not to assert conjecture as truth. I remain open to the scientific plausibility of evolution, but I won't assert it as a fact until it is proven to be factual. And if it is proven to be factual, then I will have to compromise my theology or abandon it altogether, because if evolution is truth then the theology of death entering the world through sin is error.


Selam

I am also against people using Darwin's theory. But most of the people using Darwin's theory are those against evolution. And if you make arguments that deviate from Darwin's theory based on current science, you are rejected from the conversation. It is frustrating.

Evolution is a fact in that we can see it in real time.

Here is what I think is the problem. To reject evolution leads to the concept of a world that is in stasis.

There are whales and fish that only survive on microorganisms. Lions cannot survive on plants for a simple example, their digestive system is designed for a carnivore. Their only way to survive is to be fed by God directly.

There are insects that also live solely on the dead cells that we shed. To take this position is to believe in a world that dandruff is not possible.

I could go on Gebre, but my main gripe is a world that is in stasis with no purpose and I do not include reproduction into this spiritual equation.

I hope what  bothers me is clear.

The world is constantly in flux. Evolution occurs within species. Adaptation and catastrophism constantly manufacture change. So the rejection of evolution does not lead to the concept of a world that is in stasis.


Selam

I don't know what this means, but it sounds impressive:

"In reality, the condition of perfection is anathema to a dynamic civilization since it means stasis, and therefore ruin and decay." http://sentence.yourdictionary.com/stasis (How to use stasis in a sentence.)
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 09:08:46 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
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« Reply #5383 on: October 20, 2013, 09:14:35 PM »

I believe that evolution and the Scriptures are mutually exclusive in so much that they answer different questions.

I also think that Darwin caused inexcusable harm by what can be derived logically from his theory. Whether it be from eugenics to social darwinism, it has shaped our world for the worse. It places little value and worth on human beings. I can't help but shift some of the blame on to Darwin for Nazism. It would have been better to repent for his blunder, but the damage is done.

But really that is my objection against people using Darwin's theory, even more so dogmatically. I have no problem seeing in the world how things evolved on a micro and macro level, it makes the most sense to me.

Again evolution vs. creationism, or whatever is nonsense. Christ is risen. Sorry if that sounds like a cop out.

I can agree with you on this. Our existence is ultimately a mystery. I think all Christians agree that God is the author of this mystery of life. So, it's not a cop out as far as I'm concerned. But just like with theological issues where human logic tries to go beyond sufficient truth (i.e. the language of "two natures," and the filioque), we must be careful not to assert conjecture as truth. I remain open to the scientific plausibility of evolution, but I won't assert it as a fact until it is proven to be factual. And if it is proven to be factual, then I will have to compromise my theology or abandon it altogether, because if evolution is truth then the theology of death entering the world through sin is error.


Selam

I am also against people using Darwin's theory. But most of the people using Darwin's theory are those against evolution. And if you make arguments that deviate from Darwin's theory based on current science, you are rejected from the conversation. It is frustrating.

Evolution is a fact in that we can see it in real time.

Here is what I think is the problem. To reject evolution leads to the concept of a world that is in stasis.

There are whales and fish that only survive on microorganisms. Lions cannot survive on plants for a simple example, their digestive system is designed for a carnivore. Their only way to survive is to be fed by God directly.

There are insects that also live solely on the dead cells that we shed. To take this position is to believe in a world that dandruff is not possible.

I could go on Gebre, but my main gripe is a world that is in stasis with no purpose and I do not include reproduction into this spiritual equation.

I hope what  bothers me is clear.

The world is constantly in flux. Evolution occurs within species. Adaptation and catastrophism constantly manufacture change. So the rejection of evolution does not lead to the concept of a world that is in stasis.


Selam

Hi Gebre

I need an editor. What I was  referring to was the pre-fall absence of death based on prior posts in the thread. It seems to be crucial yet perplexing to me.

The confusion is perhaps because I chose you discuss this matter in a quiet and respectful way, slowly, and ignoring the noise inherent in this forum. The  only thing that might get me upset is the notion that God would purposely deceive us in order to test us. I have thankfully never seen that notion rear its head on this website.

I also don't mind proceeding entirely privately, I just need to understand what I currently do not understand. This  requires a conversation (I think) and not an argument.
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« Reply #5384 on: October 20, 2013, 09:30:05 PM »

Ho hum, 122 pages and no one has, or will, change their minds.

Bottom line: if evolution is true (and it seems to fit most of the known facts), then evolution is a tool in God's creation toolbox and should be respected, and viewed, as such. Like it or not, God doesn't do things the way we think He should.

Also, evolution has nothing to do with how life BEGAN, only with how it developed AFTER it began - so no reason for either side to get all huffy about it.

There - fixed it! New thread now, please? ;-)

A new thread will be great, but if it is remotely connected to this topic it will sooner or later end up here. Personally my best student essays end up in politics even though I do not post in that realm of thought. I think my reputation precedes me.

In this case I think Gebre is a kind and loving person and I really do not care that much about my disagreement with him about evolution, etc. What I think is essential is present in him. My happiness lies there.
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« Reply #5385 on: October 20, 2013, 09:34:14 PM »

Ho hum, 122 pages and no one has, or will, change their minds.

Bottom line: if evolution is true (and it seems to fit most of the known facts), then evolution is a tool in God's creation toolbox and should be respected, and viewed, as such. Like it or not, God doesn't do things the way we think He should.

Also, evolution has nothing to do with how life BEGAN, only with how it developed AFTER it began - so no reason for either side to get all huffy about it.

There - fixed it! New thread now, please? ;-)

Thanks for laying out the bottom line for all of us plebeians, your eminence, and for declaring that we need not concern ourselves with debating matters beyond our means.
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« Reply #5386 on: October 20, 2013, 09:43:11 PM »

Ho hum, 122 pages and no one has, or will, change their minds.

Bottom line: if evolution is true (and it seems to fit most of the known facts), then evolution is a tool in God's creation toolbox and should be respected, and viewed, as such. Like it or not, God doesn't do things the way we think He should.

Also, evolution has nothing to do with how life BEGAN, only with how it developed AFTER it began - so no reason for either side to get all huffy about it.

There - fixed it! New thread now, please? ;-)

Thanks for laying out the bottom line for all of us plebeians, your eminence, and for declaring that we need not concern ourselves with debating matters beyond our means.

It was pretty much spot on. What is your gripe? What is the point of being vague? Why are you reading into a post more than is present. I am trying to respond to the Rude post thread and what my role might be. Any comment in that regard would be informative.

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« Reply #5387 on: October 20, 2013, 09:49:35 PM »

Ho hum, 122 pages and no one has, or will, change their minds.

Bottom line: if evolution is true (and it seems to fit most of the known facts), then evolution is a tool in God's creation toolbox and should be respected, and viewed, as such. Like it or not, God doesn't do things the way we think He should.

Also, evolution has nothing to do with how life BEGAN, only with how it developed AFTER it began - so no reason for either side to get all huffy about it.

There - fixed it! New thread now, please? ;-)

Thanks for laying out the bottom line for all of us plebeians, your eminence, and for declaring that we need not concern ourselves with debating matters beyond our means.

It was pretty much spot on. What is your gripe? What is the point of being vague? Why are you reading into a post more than is present. I am trying to respond to the Rude post thread and what my role might be. Any comment in that regard would be informative.

Well theistgal is not currently involved in any of this thread's ongoing discussions, so I really don't see why she feels the need to tell those of us who are that we need to stop.
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« Reply #5388 on: October 20, 2013, 09:58:29 PM »

Ho hum, 122 pages and no one has, or will, change their minds.

Bottom line: if evolution is true (and it seems to fit most of the known facts), then evolution is a tool in God's creation toolbox and should be respected, and viewed, as such. Like it or not, God doesn't do things the way we think He should.

Also, evolution has nothing to do with how life BEGAN, only with how it developed AFTER it began - so no reason for either side to get all huffy about it.

There - fixed it! New thread now, please? ;-)

Thanks for laying out the bottom line for all of us plebeians, your eminence, and for declaring that we need not concern ourselves with debating matters beyond our means.

It was pretty much spot on. What is your gripe? What is the point of being vague? Why are you reading into a post more than is present. I am trying to respond to the Rude post thread and what my role might be. Any comment in that regard would be informative.

Well theistgal is not currently involved in any of this thread's ongoing discussions, so I really don't see why she feels the need to tell those of us who are that we need to stop.

She isn't telling you to do anything. She has posted in this thread well before you were around. When she posts in this thread she is part of the on going conversation and she is appreciated by moi.

Calm down.


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« Reply #5389 on: October 20, 2013, 10:01:48 PM »

Ho hum, 122 pages and no one has, or will, change their minds.

Bottom line: if evolution is true (and it seems to fit most of the known facts), then evolution is a tool in God's creation toolbox and should be respected, and viewed, as such. Like it or not, God doesn't do things the way we think He should.

Also, evolution has nothing to do with how life BEGAN, only with how it developed AFTER it began - so no reason for either side to get all huffy about it.

There - fixed it! New thread now, please? ;-)

Thanks for laying out the bottom line for all of us plebeians, your eminence, and for declaring that we need not concern ourselves with debating matters beyond our means.

It was pretty much spot on. What is your gripe? What is the point of being vague? Why are you reading into a post more than is present. I am trying to respond to the Rude post thread and what my role might be. Any comment in that regard would be informative.

Well theistgal is not currently involved in any of this thread's ongoing discussions, so I really don't see why she feels the need to tell those of us who are that we need to stop.

She isn't telling you to do anything. She has posted in this thread well before you were around. When she posts in this thread she is part of the on going conversation and she is appreciated by moi.

Calm down.

What makes you think that I'm not calm? I don't usually get emotional about the internet.

But someone interjecting "no one is going to change their minds, here's the ultimate answer" into an ongoing discussion does not seem like good form to me.
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« Reply #5390 on: October 20, 2013, 10:16:31 PM »

Ho hum, 122 pages and no one has, or will, change their minds.

Bottom line: if evolution is true (and it seems to fit most of the known facts), then evolution is a tool in God's creation toolbox and should be respected, and viewed, as such. Like it or not, God doesn't do things the way we think He should.

Also, evolution has nothing to do with how life BEGAN, only with how it developed AFTER it began - so no reason for either side to get all huffy about it.

There - fixed it! New thread now, please? ;-)

Thanks for laying out the bottom line for all of us plebeians, your eminence, and for declaring that we need not concern ourselves with debating matters beyond our means.

It was pretty much spot on. What is your gripe? What is the point of being vague? Why are you reading into a post more than is present. I am trying to respond to the Rude post thread and what my role might be. Any comment in that regard would be informative.

Well theistgal is not currently involved in any of this thread's ongoing discussions, so I really don't see why she feels the need to tell those of us who are that we need to stop.

She isn't telling you to do anything. She has posted in this thread well before you were around. When she posts in this thread she is part of the on going conversation and she is appreciated by moi.

Calm down.

What makes you think that I'm not calm? I don't usually get emotional about the internet.

But someone interjecting "no one is going to change their minds, here's the ultimate answer" into an ongoing discussion does not seem like good form to me.

Excellent William. This should have been your comment to begin with. But I will say that changing minds is better done by example and reason rather than argumentation. Wish it were not so. Life would be easier, but it is also not a disaster.
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« Reply #5391 on: October 20, 2013, 10:34:08 PM »

You're entitled to your opinion, William -- as am I. My opinion being based on reading and participating in pretty much this exact same discussion, from both sides, on just about every form of religious/agnostic bulletin board/chat room/discussion forum since lo, these many eons of Internet existence.
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« Reply #5392 on: October 21, 2013, 12:52:17 AM »

I believe that evolution and the Scriptures are mutually exclusive in so much that they answer different questions.

I also think that Darwin caused inexcusable harm by what can be derived logically from his theory. Whether it be from eugenics to social darwinism, it has shaped our world for the worse. It places little value and worth on human beings. I can't help but shift some of the blame on to Darwin for Nazism. It would have been better to repent for his blunder, but the damage is done.

But really that is my objection against people using Darwin's theory, even more so dogmatically. I have no problem seeing in the world how things evolved on a micro and macro level, it makes the most sense to me.

Again evolution vs. creationism, or whatever is nonsense. Christ is risen. Sorry if that sounds like a cop out.

I can agree with you on this. Our existence is ultimately a mystery. I think all Christians agree that God is the author of this mystery of life. So, it's not a cop out as far as I'm concerned. But just like with theological issues where human logic tries to go beyond sufficient truth (i.e. the language of "two natures," and the filioque), we must be careful not to assert conjecture as truth. I remain open to the scientific plausibility of evolution, but I won't assert it as a fact until it is proven to be factual. And if it is proven to be factual, then I will have to compromise my theology or abandon it altogether, because if evolution is truth then the theology of death entering the world through sin is error.


Selam

I am also against people using Darwin's theory. But most of the people using Darwin's theory are those against evolution. And if you make arguments that deviate from Darwin's theory based on current science, you are rejected from the conversation. It is frustrating.

Evolution is a fact in that we can see it in real time.

Here is what I think is the problem. To reject evolution leads to the concept of a world that is in stasis.

There are whales and fish that only survive on microorganisms. Lions cannot survive on plants for a simple example, their digestive system is designed for a carnivore. Their only way to survive is to be fed by God directly.

There are insects that also live solely on the dead cells that we shed. To take this position is to believe in a world that dandruff is not possible.

I could go on Gebre, but my main gripe is a world that is in stasis with no purpose and I do not include reproduction into this spiritual equation.

I hope what  bothers me is clear.

The world is constantly in flux. Evolution occurs within species. Adaptation and catastrophism constantly manufacture change. So the rejection of evolution does not lead to the concept of a world that is in stasis.


Selam

Hi Gebre

I need an editor. What I was  referring to was the pre-fall absence of death based on prior posts in the thread. It seems to be crucial yet perplexing to me.

The confusion is perhaps because I chose you discuss this matter in a quiet and respectful way, slowly, and ignoring the noise inherent in this forum. The  only thing that might get me upset is the notion that God would purposely deceive us in order to test us. I have thankfully never seen that notion rear its head on this website.

I also don't mind proceeding entirely privately, I just need to understand what I currently do not understand. This  requires a conversation (I think) and not an argument.

Thanks for the kind and respectful comments. I agree that it is better to converse than to argue. Again, our existence is full of mystery, and I personally think it's dangerous to be too cock sure about any of it - other than to assert with faith that we are here because of our Creator. And that's one of the main reasons why I challenge evolutionists. Most of them are too full of certainty about things that are by no means certain. That makes them no different than those who claim with certainty that the world was created in a literal six 24 hour day timeframe.

I agree with you that God does not purposely deceive us to test our faith. But satan does deceive us, and nature in our fallen world is also deceptive. Everything is not as it appears, so we have to analyze our scientific observations in the context of the fall, always casting a skeptical eye until our theories are proven beyond the shadow of doubt.


Selam
« Last Edit: October 21, 2013, 12:53:22 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

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« Reply #5393 on: October 21, 2013, 08:09:24 AM »

I do accept the theory of evolution although I hesitate to label myself as an "evolutionist" as it does seem to take a theory and change it from a scientific concept to some sort of ideological dogma. I have absolutely no problem with people believing in a literal interpretation to Genesis as I believe it to be a viable interpretation of Scripture even if I happen not to agree with it.  I take a similar position to you do, Gebre, in that I feel uncomfortable by those who would seek to dogmatize either position.

I do like this thread because I feel that for the most part, the dialogue has been respectful and has caused me to think a lot and refine my own position by good points that have been brought out by people on both sides.
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« Reply #5394 on: October 21, 2013, 03:07:44 PM »

If God made us perfect from the beginning, then why do I breathe and swallow food through the same hole? Didn't God know about choking?  Grin

Seriously, though, David Bentley Hart gave an excellent lecture on Genesis and why interpreting scripture is a bad idea, in his opinion. I think he makes a lot of good points:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOShHXaqt0M


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« Reply #5395 on: October 21, 2013, 03:15:46 PM »

Ho hum, 122 pages and no one has, or will, change their minds.

Bottom line: if evolution is true (and it seems to fit most of the known facts), then evolution is a tool in God's creation toolbox and should be respected, and viewed, as such. Like it or not, God doesn't do things the way we think He should.

Also, evolution has nothing to do with how life BEGAN, only with how it developed AFTER it began - so no reason for either side to get all huffy about it.

There - fixed it! New thread now, please? ;-)

Thanks for laying out the bottom line for all of us plebeians, your eminence, and for declaring that we need not concern ourselves with debating matters beyond our means.

It was pretty much spot on. What is your gripe? What is the point of being vague? Why are you reading into a post more than is present. I am trying to respond to the Rude post thread and what my role might be. Any comment in that regard would be informative.

Well theistgal is not currently involved in any of this thread's ongoing discussions, so I really don't see why she feels the need to tell those of us who are that we need to stop.

She isn't telling you to do anything. She has posted in this thread well before you were around. When she posts in this thread she is part of the on going conversation and she is appreciated by moi.

Calm down.

What makes you think that I'm not calm?

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« Reply #5396 on: October 21, 2013, 03:17:25 PM »

You're entitled to your opinion, William

The only entitlement I've ever been against.
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« Reply #5397 on: October 21, 2013, 03:19:55 PM »

You're entitled to your opinion, William

The only entitlement I've ever been against.

"So the next time some *%?hole says to you, "I have a right to my opinion," you say, "Oh yeah? Well, I have a right to my opinion, and my opinion is that you have no right to your opinion." Then shoot the %#@! and walk away! " - Georg Carlin
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« Reply #5398 on: October 21, 2013, 03:21:40 PM »

Seriously, though, David Bentley Hart gave an excellent lecture on Genesis and why interpreting scripture is a bad idea, in his opinion.

I can't watch the youtube clip at the moment, seriously though, I can't imagine David Hart making such a ridiculous statement without tons of caveats which would render it practically meaningless to anyone without a PhD in hermeneutics.
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« Reply #5399 on: October 21, 2013, 03:27:16 PM »

Seriously, though, David Bentley Hart gave an excellent lecture on Genesis and why interpreting scripture is a bad idea, in his opinion.

I can't watch the youtube clip at the moment, seriously though, I can't imagine David Hart making such a ridiculous statement without tons of caveats which would render it practically meaningless to anyone without a PhD in hermeneutics.
I can't watch it at work either.

Truth, what do you mean about interpreting scripture is a bad idea?  Does he mean interpreting it literally vs metaphorically is bad?  If you say interpreting scripture in general is bad, then I don't think I follow as any time you read the Bible you are gleaning some sort of interpretation from it unless you are reading in an unknown foreign language at which point, it is all just unintelligible gibberish.
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