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Author Topic: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy  (Read 332334 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #4275 on: July 20, 2012, 08:09:05 PM »

Geocentrism is taught by the Church Fathers. Anyone who believes in Heliocentrism is following their own judgments and is not in the spirit of the Fathers.  You only have this allegory and myth nonsense to interpreting Genesis since the 15th century.

Humorism is taught by the Church Fathers. Anyone who believes in Modern Medicine is following their own judgments and is not in the spirit of the Fathers. You only have this allegory and myth nonsense to interpreting Genesis since the 19th century.

Celestial Spheres were taught by the Church Fathers. Anyone who believes in Elliptical Orbits is following their own judgments and is not in the spirit of the Fathers.  You only have this allegory and myth nonsense to interpreting Genesis since the 17th century.


This is actually a project I want someone to do, to list all the geocentric, humorist, celestial sphere quotes of the Church fathers all together.  I've already collected quotes where the first 300 years of the church, all church fathers that talked about the Nephilim believed that they were the result of angel/human mixture.
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« Reply #4276 on: July 20, 2012, 08:09:35 PM »

It is quite true that evolution is false because clearly my co-worker hasn't moved up the evolutionary chain like the rest of us have.
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« Reply #4277 on: July 20, 2012, 10:51:54 PM »

Geocentrism is taught by the Church Fathers. Anyone who believes in Heliocentrism is following their own judgments and is not in the spirit of the Fathers.  You only have this allegory and myth nonsense to interpreting Genesis since the 15th century.

Humorism is taught by the Church Fathers. Anyone who believes in Modern Medicine is following their own judgments and is not in the spirit of the Fathers. You only have this allegory and myth nonsense to interpreting Genesis since the 19th century.

Celestial Spheres were taught by the Church Fathers. Anyone who believes in Elliptical Orbits is following their own judgments and is not in the spirit of the Fathers.  You only have this allegory and myth nonsense to interpreting Genesis since the 17th century.


This is actually a project I want someone to do, to list all the geocentric, humorist, celestial sphere quotes of the Church fathers all together.  I've already collected quotes where the first 300 years of the church, all church fathers that talked about the Nephilim believed that they were the result of angel/human mixture.

Sounds interesting!
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« Reply #4278 on: July 21, 2012, 03:21:13 PM »

Geocentrism is taught by the Church Fathers. Anyone who believes in Heliocentrism is following their own judgments and is not in the spirit of the Fathers.  You only have this allegory and myth nonsense to interpreting Genesis since the 15th century.

Humorism is taught by the Church Fathers. Anyone who believes in Modern Medicine is following their own judgments and is not in the spirit of the Fathers. You only have this allegory and myth nonsense to interpreting Genesis since the 19th century.

Celestial Spheres were taught by the Church Fathers. Anyone who believes in Elliptical Orbits is following their own judgments and is not in the spirit of the Fathers.  You only have this allegory and myth nonsense to interpreting Genesis since the 17th century.


This is actually a project I want someone to do, to list all the geocentric, humorist, celestial sphere quotes of the Church fathers all together.  I've already collected quotes where the first 300 years of the church, all church fathers that talked about the Nephilim believed that they were the result of angel/human mixture.

No, thank you. Man only lives fourscore years, and this does not look like a productive way to spend them.
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« Reply #4279 on: July 22, 2012, 01:26:42 PM »

Geocentrism is taught by the Church Fathers. Anyone who believes in Heliocentrism is following their own judgments and is not in the spirit of the Fathers.  You only have this allegory and myth nonsense to interpreting Genesis since the 15th century.

Humorism is taught by the Church Fathers. Anyone who believes in Modern Medicine is following their own judgments and is not in the spirit of the Fathers. You only have this allegory and myth nonsense to interpreting Genesis since the 19th century.

Celestial Spheres were taught by the Church Fathers. Anyone who believes in Elliptical Orbits is following their own judgments and is not in the spirit of the Fathers.  You only have this allegory and myth nonsense to interpreting Genesis since the 17th century.


This is actually a project I want someone to do, to list all the geocentric, humorist, celestial sphere quotes of the Church fathers all together.  I've already collected quotes where the first 300 years of the church, all church fathers that talked about the Nephilim believed that they were the result of angel/human mixture.

No, thank you. Man only lives fourscore years, and this does not look like a productive way to spend them.
Surely, you must know there's a point behind this exercise.  It's not just for fun one does something like this.
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« Reply #4280 on: July 22, 2012, 05:08:30 PM »

Mina,

We had a reading during, I think, Holy Friday, when we were breaking the fast. It was from St. Theophan the Recluse if I recall, and included humorism.
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« Reply #4281 on: July 22, 2012, 05:13:03 PM »

Mina,

We had a reading during, I think, Holy Friday, when we were breaking the fast. It was from St. Theophan the Recluse if I recall, and included humorism.

I also recently saw something about it in the 4th volume of the Philokalia, in a text by St. Gregory of Sinai.  police
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« Reply #4282 on: July 23, 2012, 04:32:41 PM »

Mina,

We had a reading during, I think, Holy Friday, when we were breaking the fast. It was from St. Theophan the Recluse if I recall, and included humorism.

You mean a 19th-century Russian was writing about humor? I didn't think it was possible.
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« Reply #4283 on: July 29, 2012, 03:51:27 PM »

I've noticed that most religious folks when dealing with evolution tend to do one of two things: they either invest time into trying to develop pseudo-science to prove that it is false, or, they try to formulate a response explaining how it is compatible to Christianity. But rarely do I ever see anyone try to solve the theological issues that evolution raises for Orthodox Christians. Here I have presented a few that I thought of and I was wondering what you fellows thought.

1) Evolution is about competition. Some creatures die. Some creatures live. We are all in an arms race to have an advantage over the next guy and/or species that will make it easier for us to reproduce and pass on our genes. The way this works is through random mutations. Most of these mutations are harmful and the creatures die from competition. But every once in a while it can be beneficial; for example, maybe an animal might develop longer arms so that it can gather food more efficiently or something etc. And in turn, that creature can live longer since it has easier access to food and attract more mates, thus passing on its genes. The other creatures who were not so lucky will either die out from the competition raised by that mutated creature or if they are lucky, they will develop an even better edge and knock that creature into extinction. Either way, someone and/or some group is going to die out while another one strives. If all of this is true, then it would have to follow that either God created the world with death or that death was introduced only after the fall. If you adhere to the former--which is more scientifically sound since evolution has been occuring a long time before humans came into existence and committed the Fall--then you have to deal with the problem of why death existed before humans fell and that God subjected the world to death before anyone even fell. If you adhere to the latter option--which is more theologically sound--you have to reconcile it with the fact that it is scientifically unsound since evolution and death have been occuring before the existence of modern man since at the very least we as humans have only been around for 100,000 years whereas evolution takes millions of years in most cases and that we have evidence of evolution and death occuring even before modern humans.

2) Humans arose from mutation, competition and the death of our rival species. If you believe that human evolution was guided by God, then you have to accept that for some reason, He gave us several advantages over our competition and allowed them all to go extinct so that we could strive. And where does one draw the line between a human and an animal? Are we to say that all of our competition was just animals and that it did not matter? I don't think so. How about the Neanderthals? They were nearly identical to humans along with several other sub-species of the Homo category. Yet for some reason, all of these species went extinct because we outgunned them in the evolutionary arms race and thus we are now the only successor in the Homo category. Why would God create these other species with the sole purpose of allowing them to go extinct for us? And are they really just as important as humans? Do they have souls? What is their fate? I have trouble accepting that modern humans were really any different than these species so why are we the special chosen ones?
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« Reply #4284 on: July 29, 2012, 04:29:20 PM »

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« Reply #4285 on: July 29, 2012, 04:42:40 PM »

The way this works is through random mutations.
Evolution has nothing inherently to do with "randomness" as such.

Mutations occur for attributable reasons, which is why they are classified into several types with several causes. For this discussion to be profitable, we must eliminate faulty notions that ascribe all sorts of false metaphysical claims to evolution. Like "evolution is a product of 'random chance", or that there is such a thing as "more evolved" and "less evolved", or that evolution is a sentient process guiding itself toward various ends ("competing for survival", etc.)

Why would God create [other hominids] with the sole purpose of allowing them to go extinct for us?

James, I don't think that all the flourishing creatures and structures which are no longer composed were created solely for the purpose of becoming extinct. I think they were creatures and arrangements that manifested beauty and vivifying powers and the myriad possible forms, which reflected something of God in their own time, and contributed to creation's offering to God. And in the end, the good and truth of those things will not be lost, but will be somehow redeemed and restored in the Coming Age.

I'd also like to note that the Neanderthals, although they went extinct as a species, did not completely die out in every sense. Enough of them interbred with us that a significant amount of their DNA persists in many populations, especially in Europe and Asia.

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« Reply #4286 on: July 29, 2012, 04:55:43 PM »

I think Nicholas has already done a good job of pointing out an underlying flaw in the OP perspective concerning the theory of evolution, natural selection, etc., so I won't address it myself. I also think the first question is steeped in that understanding, so I'll avoid addressing it for now. I do, however, have a few things to add concerning the second question:

And where does one draw the line between a human and an animal?

"Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” (Genesis 1:26)

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." (Genesis 2:7)

These are the unique properties of humanity from the Genesis narrative. We are crafted especially by God, molded into his image and vivified with his Spirit. No other creature claims these attributes, no matter how sentient or humanoid they are.

Why would God create these other species with the sole purpose of allowing them to go extinct for us? And are they really just as important as humans? Do they have souls? What is their fate? I have trouble accepting that modern humans were really any different than these species so why are we the special chosen ones?

Why was Abraham selected, when he was simply a pagan man in Chaldea? Why does Israel become the Chosen People? Yes, Abraham was faithful, but he had done nothing but be a good pagan up until the time God calls him. There are plenty of other "good pagans" in the Scripture, but God wipes them out. Why?

I think it's a similar question.
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« Reply #4287 on: July 29, 2012, 09:53:51 PM »

Subscribing.
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« Reply #4288 on: July 30, 2012, 04:00:02 AM »

What is evolution? Is that like Satan's baby?
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« Reply #4289 on: August 04, 2012, 08:06:25 PM »

Death is the enemy so how could god Create a system in which animals die which would lead to us?

"Forming light, preparing darkness; making peace, preparing evil: I am the Lord, doing all these things." -Isaiah 45

God brings good out of chaos, does he not?


That's a good point. If suffering is permitted by God because it is beneficial to one's salvation, why could not mankind have sprung from death? I am no theologian but this seems to support Patristic principles.  Huh

However that still leaves us with the problem of how to interpret the Fall and Adam/Eve. Literalism is impossible if this former view is accepted.
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« Reply #4290 on: August 04, 2012, 11:26:10 PM »

What is evolution? Is that like Satan's baby?

No bites.  Undecided
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« Reply #4291 on: August 05, 2012, 07:19:36 PM »

These are the unique properties of humanity from the Genesis narrative. We are crafted especially by God, molded into his image and vivified with his Spirit. No other creature claims these attributes, no matter how sentient or humanoid they are.
Genesis says humans are made in the image of God. Genesis does not say that other creatures are not made in the image of God.

Besides, every created thing is, in some fashion, to some degree, a reflection or image of the Creator.
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« Reply #4292 on: August 05, 2012, 07:24:28 PM »

Genesis says humans are made in the image of God. Genesis does not say that other creatures are not made in the image of God.

This might have some weight if we were sola scripturists...  Wink
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« Reply #4293 on: August 05, 2012, 07:31:36 PM »

These are the unique properties of humanity from the Genesis narrative. We are crafted especially by God, molded into his image and vivified with his Spirit. No other creature claims these attributes, no matter how sentient or humanoid they are.
Genesis says humans are made in the image of God. Genesis does not say that other creatures are not made in the image of God.

Besides, every created thing is, in some fashion, to some degree, a reflection or image of the Creator.
The scriptures do NOT say a lot of things.
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« Reply #4294 on: August 06, 2012, 05:21:11 PM »

These are the unique properties of humanity from the Genesis narrative. We are crafted especially by God, molded into his image and vivified with his Spirit. No other creature claims these attributes, no matter how sentient or humanoid they are.
Genesis says humans are made in the image of God. Genesis does not say that other creatures are not made in the image of God.

Besides, every created thing is, in some fashion, to some degree, a reflection or image of the Creator.
The scriptures do NOT say a lot of things.

They do not say that evolutionary biology is false, for instance.  Wink
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« Reply #4295 on: August 06, 2012, 05:42:19 PM »

These are the unique properties of humanity from the Genesis narrative. We are crafted especially by God, molded into his image and vivified with his Spirit. No other creature claims these attributes, no matter how sentient or humanoid they are.
Genesis says humans are made in the image of God. Genesis does not say that other creatures are not made in the image of God.

Besides, every created thing is, in some fashion, to some degree, a reflection or image of the Creator.
The scriptures do NOT say a lot of things.

They do not say that evolutionary biology is false, for instance.  Wink
Very true. Smiley
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« Reply #4296 on: August 18, 2012, 06:26:50 PM »

It is totally possible that God jump-started evolution, and has been tinkering with the process ever since. But on the other hand, we may never know.
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« Reply #4297 on: August 18, 2012, 09:04:01 PM »

It is totally possible that God jump-started evolution, and has been tinkering with the process ever since. But on the other hand, we may never know.
God jump starts everything, all the time.
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« Reply #4298 on: August 18, 2012, 11:32:39 PM »

It is totally possible that God jump-started evolution, and has been tinkering with the process ever since. But on the other hand, we may never know.
If evolution were true, I would agree, but then my view of God would be altered.
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« Reply #4299 on: August 20, 2012, 09:24:07 PM »

It is totally possible that God jump-started evolution, and has been tinkering with the process ever since. But on the other hand, we may never know.

I am reminded of this quote that I've posted before:

"Any deity worthy of a graven image can cobble up a working universe complete with fake fossils in under a week - hey, if you're not omnipotent, there's no real point in being a god. But to start with a big ball of elementary particles and end up with the duckbill platypus without constant twiddling requires a degree of subtlety and the ability to Think Things Through: exactly the qualities I'm looking for when I'm shopping for a Supreme Being." ---  Lee DeRaud
 Smiley
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« Reply #4300 on: August 21, 2012, 02:13:47 AM »

It is totally possible that God jump-started evolution, and has been tinkering with the process ever since. But on the other hand, we may never know.

I am reminded of this quote that I've posted before:

"Any deity worthy of a graven image can cobble up a working universe complete with fake fossils in under a week - hey, if you're not omnipotent, there's no real point in being a god. But to start with a big ball of elementary particles and end up with the duckbill platypus without constant twiddling requires a degree of subtlety and the ability to Think Things Through: exactly the qualities I'm looking for when I'm shopping for a Supreme Being." ---  Lee DeRaud
 Smiley
Awesome quote!

Forgive my ignorance, but who is Lee Deraud?
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« Reply #4301 on: August 21, 2012, 11:22:58 AM »

It is totally possible that God jump-started evolution, and has been tinkering with the process ever since. But on the other hand, we may never know.

I am reminded of this quote that I've posted before:

"Any deity worthy of a graven image can cobble up a working universe complete with fake fossils in under a week - hey, if you're not omnipotent, there's no real point in being a god. But to start with a big ball of elementary particles and end up with the duckbill platypus without constant twiddling requires a degree of subtlety and the ability to Think Things Through: exactly the qualities I'm looking for when I'm shopping for a Supreme Being." ---  Lee DeRaud
 Smiley
Awesome quote!

Forgive my ignorance, but who is Lee Deraud?

I had the same question. Apparently he is the same person that comes up when you google his name, actually Lee DeRaud. He programmed navigation and sonar software for submarines at Rockwell/Boeing. Retired and went into woodworking. He penned the quote in the 1990s at the USENET group rec.arts.sf.written. I have only been able to go back to 2000 in this group, so I cannot vouch for the information but I have no reason to doubt it.
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« Reply #4302 on: August 21, 2012, 08:31:40 PM »

I'm glad that you like the quote.   Smiley

Lee DeRaud's "just this guy, you know?"  (Look out! I have a case of Quotations.  Grin)

He does some very nice woodworking.
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« Reply #4303 on: September 01, 2012, 12:05:52 AM »

Info on Evolution
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« Reply #4304 on: September 01, 2012, 11:11:08 PM »

Genesis, Creation, and Early Man is not a book about biology by a theologian as you're obviously suggesting. Its a theology book by a monastic-theologian. It also contains articles on science by scientists. Nowhere in the book are any of the observations of modern science denied by either Fr. Seraphim or the scientist authors who wrote appendices.

Guess what? Evolution is the framework of all biology so yes, any writing about evolution is a writing about biology. If he denies evolution, he denies the observations of modern science.
No, he simply denies evolution. Evolution is not observed in nature and has never been observed in nature. By "evolution" I mean evolution in Darwinian sense.
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« Reply #4305 on: September 01, 2012, 11:37:25 PM »

Although Gebre does not agree with evolution or old earth, perhaps the language itself "believe in" would be reserved for a way of life, as in faith, and not materialistic existence.  Perhaps one is better to say I acknowledge a material reality, but I believe in a certain faith.  Even non-believers will not use the term "believe in" to describe their trust in the scientific method and principles.

St Gregory the Theologian made this very point! We can distinguish between "believe", as in acknowledge a fact or truth, and "believe in", i.e. make a truth the foundation of our moral life.

+1


I absolutely agree. It is ridiculous for evolutionists to claim that they "believe in biology" and that the rest of us don't. I believe in biology; i.e. I know that biology exists. Now, how one understands and interprets the science of biology is essentially the issue at hand with this whole discussion. What I have noticed is that rather than actually providing empirical evidence for the theory of evolution, the evolutionists on this thread instead resort to accusing the rest of us of not "believing in science," which is neither a fact nor an argument for the evolutionary position.


Selam
They have no empirical evidence and that's where all these fallacies come from. For you and me (and many others) it is not difficult to say that our faith is simply faith, we don't need explanation for it. For some people if you tell them their science is just another faith they get offended.
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« Reply #4306 on: September 01, 2012, 11:57:24 PM »

Genesis, Creation, and Early Man is not a book about biology by a theologian as you're obviously suggesting. Its a theology book by a monastic-theologian. It also contains articles on science by scientists. Nowhere in the book are any of the observations of modern science denied by either Fr. Seraphim or the scientist authors who wrote appendices.

Guess what? Evolution is the framework of all biology so yes, any writing about evolution is a writing about biology. If he denies evolution, he denies the observations of modern science.
No, he simply denies evolution. Evolution is not observed in nature and has never been observed in nature. By "evolution" I mean evolution in Darwinian sense.

Can you elaborate?
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« Reply #4307 on: September 02, 2012, 12:03:20 AM »

What is evolution? Is that like Satan's baby?

The idea of evolution may well be.  It provokes thought.  Thought begets heresy and heresy begets retribution.  Yes, probably from the Devil.  Blessed is the mind too small for doubt!
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« Reply #4308 on: September 02, 2012, 12:20:01 AM »

What is evolution? Is that like Satan's baby?

The idea of evolution may well be.  It provokes thought.  Thought begets heresy and heresy begets retribution.  Yes, probably from the Devil.  Blessed is the mind too small for doubt!
Congratulations on 3,000 posts! Smiley
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« Reply #4309 on: September 02, 2012, 12:27:16 AM »

What is evolution? Is that like Satan's baby?

The idea of evolution may well be.  It provokes thought.  Thought begets heresy and heresy begets retribution.  Yes, probably from the Devil.  Blessed is the mind too small for doubt!
Congratulations on 3,000 posts! Smiley

Thank you.  I thought some quotes from Warhammer 40K would be appropriate. 
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« Reply #4310 on: September 02, 2012, 12:27:46 AM »

They have no empirical evidence and that's where all these fallacies come from. For you and me (and many others) it is not difficult to say that our faith is simply faith, we don't need explanation for it. For some people if you tell them their science is just another faith they get offended.

The problem for me is that there is empirical evidence. The problem that I see is that to reject this empirical evidence is to accept that God is the Great Deceiver which I reject. I think this is the third or fourth time I mentioned this on this particular thread without response. Perhaps the lack of response is one of kindness because I am clueless in regard to an obvious answer, but this is an important issue for me and I learn nothing from kindness.
Also, it is ridiculous to limit oneself to ~100 yr old Darwinian evolution. It is not relevant to the discussion.

I realize now that there are three more posts since starting this one.
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« Reply #4311 on: September 02, 2012, 12:39:30 AM »

minasoliman

Orthodox teaching says that human is composed of spirit, soul and body as opposed to animals who are composed of soul and body only. Let me make a little clarification of the terms so that terms don't get on our way. By "soul" I mean that immortal thing that God put in man and that make man man and that make man different from animals. By "spirit" I mean something immaterial that gives every living organism it feature of being alive. Basically let's call "soul" that thing which puts man as a special one in creation.

Now, Orthodox evolutionists adhere to an idea that man was evolved from something non-man. There has to be the very first being (or first beings if such being got souls at the same time on time scale) who received soul. Let's call that one "Lucky" and denote it by letter L. Now my questions are: 1) What was the genetic composition of that first body L that qualified to be called man and that received the soul? Here I don't expect a detailed genetic map but more of an answer if L's genetics was exactly like ours. 2) Certainly, L's parents did not have the soul since L was the first one who got the soul. L's parents would not be much different from L himself since L would have inherited from his parents genetic material same way it is inherited now. There could have been maybe a little bit of point mutations in L's parents gametes but L would still look like their parents like us who look like our mothers and fathers. Why would these unfortunate parents not receive the immortal soul? Weren't they genetically men?

and lastly: 3) Did All-Mighty and Omniscient  God wait in time until certain genetic combination would come through evolution before God would impart the immortal soul to such a being? And how did He know that through some random mutations such a combination would be reached at some point of time?

I'd love to know how one can claim to be Orthodox, have answers to these and be also evolutionist.
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« Reply #4312 on: September 02, 2012, 12:49:25 AM »

Genesis, Creation, and Early Man is not a book about biology by a theologian as you're obviously suggesting. Its a theology book by a monastic-theologian. It also contains articles on science by scientists. Nowhere in the book are any of the observations of modern science denied by either Fr. Seraphim or the scientist authors who wrote appendices.

Guess what? Evolution is the framework of all biology so yes, any writing about evolution is a writing about biology. If he denies evolution, he denies the observations of modern science.

Can you elaborate?
No, he simply denies evolution. Evolution is not observed in nature and has never been observed in nature. By "evolution" I mean evolution in Darwinian sense.
No random point mutations will create new species. It is possible to create species but this will be only creation through intelligence. For example, their can be certain intelligent mechanisms in nature (like transfer of genetic materials) that could account the appearance of a new feature in a given organism (but not a new feature in nature). You could call this new organism a new species if you want to. You can call this an example of evolution if you want to. But this is all. What is more important You can't explain the appearance of such a clever mechanism itself. If you want to explain the appearance of such a mechanism by another clever mechanism and call it an evolution that is fine to me too. But you are left with this mechanism that needs still explanation through Neo-Darwinian process of point random mutations. Nothing like this ever been observed.

Now can evolutionist give an example of evolution?
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« Reply #4313 on: September 02, 2012, 12:55:49 AM »

They have no empirical evidence and that's where all these fallacies come from. For you and me (and many others) it is not difficult to say that our faith is simply faith, we don't need explanation for it. For some people if you tell them their science is just another faith they get offended.

The problem for me is that there is empirical evidence. The problem that I see is that to reject this empirical evidence is to accept that God is the Great Deceiver which I reject. I think this is the third or fourth time I mentioned this on this particular thread without response. Perhaps the lack of response is one of kindness because I am clueless in regard to an obvious answer, but this is an important issue for me and I learn nothing from kindness.
Also, it is ridiculous to limit oneself to ~100 yr old Darwinian evolution. It is not relevant to the discussion.

I realize now that there are three more posts since starting this one.
Which empirical evidence? can you name one, please?
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« Reply #4314 on: September 06, 2012, 04:35:11 PM »

The problem for me is that there is empirical evidence...
Which empirical evidence? can you name one, please?
How about the observation that numerous organisms exist today which didn't previously exist?  Clearly, new species come from somewhere.  If evolution doesn't explain this satisfactorily, then what is your alternative hypothesis?
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« Reply #4315 on: September 07, 2012, 06:43:40 AM »

The problem for me is that there is empirical evidence...
Which empirical evidence? can you name one, please?
How about the observation that numerous organisms exist today which didn't previously exist?  Clearly, new species come from somewhere.  If evolution doesn't explain this satisfactorily, then what is your alternative hypothesis?
Maybe they did exist and we just didn't know it.
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« Reply #4316 on: September 09, 2012, 03:22:56 AM »

The problem for me is that there is empirical evidence...
Which empirical evidence? can you name one, please?
How about the observation that numerous organisms exist today which didn't previously exist?  Clearly, new species come from somewhere.  If evolution doesn't explain this satisfactorily, then what is your alternative hypothesis?
Maybe they did exist and we just didn't know it.
But science doesn't delve too deeply into maybes.  It attempts to cohesively explain all known observations.  If our observation is that mammals didn't exist during the Precambrian, for example, and your hypothesis is that they really did exist but weren't fossilized at the time, then you'd need to explain how that might happen and how this explanation is consistent with everything else we know.

Mammals are very readily fossilized.  It strains credulity to try to imagine conditions in which bacteria would fossilize but in which mammals would not.  But is this what you are proposing?
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« Reply #4317 on: September 09, 2012, 04:59:50 PM »

The problem for me is that there is empirical evidence...
Which empirical evidence? can you name one, please?
How about the observation that numerous organisms exist today which didn't previously exist?  Clearly, new species come from somewhere.  If evolution doesn't explain this satisfactorily, then what is your alternative hypothesis?
Maybe they did exist and we just didn't know it.
But science doesn't delve too deeply into maybes.  It attempts to cohesively explain all known observations.  If our observation is that mammals didn't exist during the Precambrian, for example, and your hypothesis is that they really did exist but weren't fossilized at the time, then you'd need to explain how that might happen and how this explanation is consistent with everything else we know.

Mammals are very readily fossilized.  It strains credulity to try to imagine conditions in which bacteria would fossilize but in which mammals would not.  But is this what you are proposing?

False, the scientific method (as opposed to the mythical "science" creature that glows and pee's nectar) deals purely in maybes and evidence that supports a variety of maybes. Ideally, the more strongly supported by evidence is deemed more correct.

The maybe he talks about is a possibility that the lack of discovery does not reject the reality of the evidence. Though pure speculation, like many hypotheses, it could be further supported showing previous cases with positive outcomes or of course discovering desired evidence.

Yes, it does happen. Pure rejection shows your bias, rejection with supported evidence is a bit stronger.
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« Reply #4318 on: September 09, 2012, 06:05:16 PM »

The problem for me is that there is empirical evidence...
Which empirical evidence? can you name one, please?
How about the observation that numerous organisms exist today which didn't previously exist?  Clearly, new species come from somewhere.  If evolution doesn't explain this satisfactorily, then what is your alternative hypothesis?
Maybe they did exist and we just didn't know it.
But science doesn't delve too deeply into maybes.  It attempts to cohesively explain all known observations.  If our observation is that mammals didn't exist during the Precambrian, for example, and your hypothesis is that they really did exist but weren't fossilized at the time, then you'd need to explain how that might happen and how this explanation is consistent with everything else we know.

Mammals are very readily fossilized.  It strains credulity to try to imagine conditions in which bacteria would fossilize but in which mammals would not.  But is this what you are proposing?

False, the scientific method (as opposed to the mythical "science" creature that glows and pee's nectar) deals purely in maybes and evidence that supports a variety of maybes. Ideally, the more strongly supported by evidence is deemed more correct.

The maybe he talks about is a possibility that the lack of discovery does not reject the reality of the evidence. Though pure speculation, like many hypotheses, it could be further supported showing previous cases with positive outcomes or of course discovering desired evidence.

Yes, it does happen. Pure rejection shows your bias, rejection with supported evidence is a bit stronger.

Actually I though Kerdy's answer was cute. I wish I said it.
Your answer should have been based on the fact that Chrevbel's observations does not take into account the disparity between the number of bacteria vs the number of mammals.

Now I want to take you back in time when you were Azurestone. As far as I can remember you did not comment on Ortho_cat's post:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,4959.msg496709.html#msg496709

I did not respond to Ativan because he demands that I convert a dog into a cat despite the fact that it would be easier to convert a dog into a whale. I did do a cost analysis of how much money and time it would take to generate legs in a lung fish. It was quite prohibitive (I have to see if it is still there on another computer). My question was not addressed and as long as I continue to see things the way that I do, I will not support you.

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« Reply #4319 on: September 09, 2012, 06:35:03 PM »

The problem for me is that there is empirical evidence...
Which empirical evidence? can you name one, please?
How about the observation that numerous organisms exist today which didn't previously exist?  Clearly, new species come from somewhere.  If evolution doesn't explain this satisfactorily, then what is your alternative hypothesis?
Maybe they did exist and we just didn't know it.
But science doesn't delve too deeply into maybes.  
Huh
Evolution...It's mostly guess work, like a lot of science.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 06:40:39 PM by Kerdy » Logged
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