Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy

[DavidH]

I like to think you are using this translation:

Friends love through all kinds of weather,
   and families stick together in all kinds of trouble.

What translation is that, Norm?

I was looking at the RSV-CE2 "A friend loves at all times, and a brother is born for adversity."

Since we have been at odds tonight and we are both Orthodox I am just considering it as brothers arguing- so what?- that's what brothers do.

[orthonorm]

I like to think you are using this translation:

Friends love through all kinds of weather,
   and families stick together in all kinds of trouble.

What translation is that, Norm?

I was looking at the RSV-CE2 "A friend loves at all times, and a brother is born for adversity."

Since we have been at odds tonight and we are both Orthodox I am just considering it as brothers arguing- so what?- that's what brothers do.

I know your point and it is well taken in its charity. I just like to get The Message translation out there whenever I can.

Although this is not one of its finer moments (it is often more humorous or insightful or both).

[DavidH]

I like to think you are using this translation:

Friends love through all kinds of weather,
   and families stick together in all kinds of trouble.

What translation is that, Norm?

I was looking at the RSV-CE2 "A friend loves at all times, and a brother is born for adversity."

Since we have been at odds tonight and we are both Orthodox I am just considering it as brothers arguing- so what?- that's what brothers do.

I know your point and it is well taken in its charity. I just like to get The Message translation out there whenever I can.

Although this is not one of its finer moments (it is often more humorous or insightful or both).

"The Message"- SERIOUSLY?- now we are at odds again! That paraphrase makes my eyes and ears bleed! I can't believe someone actually quoted The Message on me! That's worse than your servile adherence to the secularist creation myth from the Book of Darwin, geez!

[Hiwot]

I like to think you are using this translation:

Friends love through all kinds of weather,
   and families stick together in all kinds of trouble.

What translation is that, Norm?

I was looking at the RSV-CE2 "A friend loves at all times, and a brother is born for adversity."

Since we have been at odds tonight and we are both Orthodox I am just considering it as brothers arguing- so what?- that's what brothers do.

I know your point and it is well taken in its charity. I just like to get The Message translation out there whenever I can.

Although this is not one of its finer moments (it is often more humorous or insightful or both).

"The Message"- SERIOUSLY?- now we are at odds again! That paraphrase makes my eyes and ears bleed! I can't believe someone actually quoted The Message on me! That's worse than your servile adherence to the secularist creation myth from the Book of Darwin, geez!

LOL!!! I am still recovering from Psalm 1 of The Message, actually I do not think I will ever recover from that trauma.

[orthonorm]

I like to think you are using this translation:

Friends love through all kinds of weather,
   and families stick together in all kinds of trouble.

What translation is that, Norm?

I was looking at the RSV-CE2 "A friend loves at all times, and a brother is born for adversity."

Since we have been at odds tonight and we are both Orthodox I am just considering it as brothers arguing- so what?- that's what brothers do.

I know your point and it is well taken in its charity. I just like to get The Message translation out there whenever I can.

Although this is not one of its finer moments (it is often more humorous or insightful or both).

"The Message"- SERIOUSLY?- now we are at odds again! That paraphrase makes my eyes and ears bleed! I can't believe someone actually quoted The Message on me! That's worse than your servile adherence to the secularist creation myth from the Book of Darwin, geez!

It is not a paraphrase. It is a translation in English from respected sources phrased "dynamically". And really, I highly suggest without irony that every Christian with a serious Biblical background, like yourself obviously, get a copy.

I promise you laugh at times till you cry or cry in frustration. And you will find some rather insightful stuff. Seriously.

I heard it mocked and vilified. Then I actually looked at it. And I laughed at it and was surprised by it more often than I thought I could be.

Like most things, it is not so simple. This is getting tangential. But I am not joking here.

[orthonorm]

I like to think you are using this translation:

Friends love through all kinds of weather,
   and families stick together in all kinds of trouble.

What translation is that, Norm?

I was looking at the RSV-CE2 "A friend loves at all times, and a brother is born for adversity."

Since we have been at odds tonight and we are both Orthodox I am just considering it as brothers arguing- so what?- that's what brothers do.

I know your point and it is well taken in its charity. I just like to get The Message translation out there whenever I can.

Although this is not one of its finer moments (it is often more humorous or insightful or both).

"The Message"- SERIOUSLY?- now we are at odds again! That paraphrase makes my eyes and ears bleed! I can't believe someone actually quoted The Message on me! That's worse than your servile adherence to the secularist creation myth from the Book of Darwin, geez!

LOL!!! I am still recovering from Psalm 1 of The Message, actually I do not think I will ever recover from that trauma.

Psalm 1


   How well God must like you— you don't hang out at Sin Saloon, you don't slink along Dead-End Road,
   you don't go to Smart-Mouth College.

 2-3 Instead you thrill to God's Word,
      you chew on Scripture day and night.
   You're a tree replanted in Eden,
      bearing fresh fruit every month,
   Never dropping a leaf,
      always in blossom.

 4-5 You're not at all like the wicked,
      who are mere windblown dust—
   Without defense in court,
      unfit company for innocent people.

 6 God charts the road you take.
   The road they take is Skid Row.

EDIT: Dying here.

EDIT: I don't know if I have to link to quoted named translations of Scripture, but just in case: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms%201&version=MSG

[DavidH]

I like to think you are using this translation:

Friends love through all kinds of weather,
   and families stick together in all kinds of trouble.

What translation is that, Norm?

I was looking at the RSV-CE2 "A friend loves at all times, and a brother is born for adversity."

Since we have been at odds tonight and we are both Orthodox I am just considering it as brothers arguing- so what?- that's what brothers do.

I know your point and it is well taken in its charity. I just like to get The Message translation out there whenever I can.

Although this is not one of its finer moments (it is often more humorous or insightful or both).

"The Message"- SERIOUSLY?- now we are at odds again! That paraphrase makes my eyes and ears bleed! I can't believe someone actually quoted The Message on me! That's worse than your servile adherence to the secularist creation myth from the Book of Darwin, geez!

It is not a paraphrase. It is a translation in English from respected sources phrased "dynamically". And really, I highly suggest without irony that every Christian with a serious Biblical background, like yourself obviously, get a copy.

I promise you laugh at times till you cry or cry in frustration. And you will find some rather insightful stuff. Seriously.

I heard it mocked and vilified. Then I actually looked at it. And I laughed at it and was surprised by it more often than I thought I could be.

Like most things, it is not so simple. This is getting tangential. But I am not joking here.

Well, I read the New Testament in Greek and I muddle around in the LXX so it would be interesting to look at if you think it is a translation rather than a paraphrase (honestly, I am not sure which it is off hand).... worse comes to worse, I HAVE been looking for a new dartboard cover....

[DavidH]

I like to think you are using this translation:

Friends love through all kinds of weather,
   and families stick together in all kinds of trouble.

What translation is that, Norm?

I was looking at the RSV-CE2 "A friend loves at all times, and a brother is born for adversity."

Since we have been at odds tonight and we are both Orthodox I am just considering it as brothers arguing- so what?- that's what brothers do.

I know your point and it is well taken in its charity. I just like to get The Message translation out there whenever I can.

Although this is not one of its finer moments (it is often more humorous or insightful or both).

"The Message"- SERIOUSLY?- now we are at odds again! That paraphrase makes my eyes and ears bleed! I can't believe someone actually quoted The Message on me! That's worse than your servile adherence to the secularist creation myth from the Book of Darwin, geez!

LOL!!! I am still recovering from Psalm 1 of The Message, actually I do not think I will ever recover from that trauma.

Psalm 1


   How well God must like you— you don't hang out at Sin Saloon, you don't slink along Dead-End Road,
   you don't go to Smart-Mouth College.

 2-3 Instead you thrill to God's Word,
      you chew on Scripture day and night.
   You're a tree replanted in Eden,
      bearing fresh fruit every month,
   Never dropping a leaf,
      always in blossom.

 4-5 You're not at all like the wicked,
      who are mere windblown dust—
   Without defense in court,
      unfit company for innocent people.

 6 God charts the road you take.
   The road they take is Skid Row.

EDIT: Dying here.

Dude. Really. The city of Augsburg in the Middle Ages declared the selling of bad beer as a crime against Christian love. This rendition of Psalm 1 is marginally worse. And it requires a beer to recover from.

[ZealousZeal]

I like to think you are using this translation:

Friends love through all kinds of weather,
   and families stick together in all kinds of trouble.

What translation is that, Norm?

I was looking at the RSV-CE2 "A friend loves at all times, and a brother is born for adversity."

Since we have been at odds tonight and we are both Orthodox I am just considering it as brothers arguing- so what?- that's what brothers do.

I know your point and it is well taken in its charity. I just like to get The Message translation out there whenever I can.

Although this is not one of its finer moments (it is often more humorous or insightful or both).

"The Message"- SERIOUSLY?- now we are at odds again! That paraphrase makes my eyes and ears bleed! I can't believe someone actually quoted The Message on me! That's worse than your servile adherence to the secularist creation myth from the Book of Darwin, geez!

LOL!!! I am still recovering from Psalm 1 of The Message, actually I do not think I will ever recover from that trauma.

Psalm 1


   How well God must like you— you don't hang out at Sin Saloon, you don't slink along Dead-End Road,
   you don't go to Smart-Mouth College.

 2-3 Instead you thrill to God's Word,
      you chew on Scripture day and night.
   You're a tree replanted in Eden,
      bearing fresh fruit every month,
   Never dropping a leaf,
      always in blossom.

 4-5 You're not at all like the wicked,
      who are mere windblown dust—
   Without defense in court,
      unfit company for innocent people.

 6 God charts the road you take.
   The road they take is Skid Row.

EDIT: Dying here.

EDIT: I don't know if I have to link to quoted named translations of Scripture, but just in case: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms%201&version=MSG

I wish I hadn't put my acceptance letter to my school in the mail yesterday, because I totally would apply instead to Smart-Mouth College. I always hear about these things too late.

[orthonorm]

I like to think you are using this translation:

Friends love through all kinds of weather,
   and families stick together in all kinds of trouble.

What translation is that, Norm?

I was looking at the RSV-CE2 "A friend loves at all times, and a brother is born for adversity."

Since we have been at odds tonight and we are both Orthodox I am just considering it as brothers arguing- so what?- that's what brothers do.

I know your point and it is well taken in its charity. I just like to get The Message translation out there whenever I can.

Although this is not one of its finer moments (it is often more humorous or insightful or both).

"The Message"- SERIOUSLY?- now we are at odds again! That paraphrase makes my eyes and ears bleed! I can't believe someone actually quoted The Message on me! That's worse than your servile adherence to the secularist creation myth from the Book of Darwin, geez!

It is not a paraphrase. It is a translation in English from respected sources phrased "dynamically". And really, I highly suggest without irony that every Christian with a serious Biblical background, like yourself obviously, get a copy.

I promise you laugh at times till you cry or cry in frustration. And you will find some rather insightful stuff. Seriously.

I heard it mocked and vilified. Then I actually looked at it. And I laughed at it and was surprised by it more often than I thought I could be.

Like most things, it is not so simple. This is getting tangential. But I am not joking here.

Well, I read the New Testament in Greek and I muddle around in the LXX so it would be interesting to look at if you think it is a translation rather than a paraphrase (honestly, I am not sure which it is off hand).... worse comes to worse, I HAVE been looking for a new dartboard cover....

It is a translation. I can assure you.

Though The Message is often considered a paraphrase, it is not explicitly; The Message was translated by Peterson from the original languages.[3] Thus, it is a highly idiomatic translation, and as such falls on the extreme dynamic end of the dynamic and formal equivalence spectrum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Message_(Bible)

People get sloppy with "paraphrase". It is just very "dynamic".

[orthonorm]

I like to think you are using this translation:

Friends love through all kinds of weather,
   and families stick together in all kinds of trouble.

What translation is that, Norm?

I was looking at the RSV-CE2 "A friend loves at all times, and a brother is born for adversity."

Since we have been at odds tonight and we are both Orthodox I am just considering it as brothers arguing- so what?- that's what brothers do.

I know your point and it is well taken in its charity. I just like to get The Message translation out there whenever I can.

Although this is not one of its finer moments (it is often more humorous or insightful or both).

"The Message"- SERIOUSLY?- now we are at odds again! That paraphrase makes my eyes and ears bleed! I can't believe someone actually quoted The Message on me! That's worse than your servile adherence to the secularist creation myth from the Book of Darwin, geez!

LOL!!! I am still recovering from Psalm 1 of The Message, actually I do not think I will ever recover from that trauma.

Psalm 1


   How well God must like you— you don't hang out at Sin Saloon, you don't slink along Dead-End Road,
   you don't go to Smart-Mouth College.

 2-3 Instead you thrill to God's Word,
      you chew on Scripture day and night.
   You're a tree replanted in Eden,
      bearing fresh fruit every month,
   Never dropping a leaf,
      always in blossom.

 4-5 You're not at all like the wicked,
      who are mere windblown dust—
   Without defense in court,
      unfit company for innocent people.

 6 God charts the road you take.
   The road they take is Skid Row.

EDIT: Dying here.

Dude. Really. The city of Augsburg in the Middle Ages declared the selling of bad beer as a crime against Christian love. This rendition of Psalm 1 is marginally worse. And it requires a beer to recover from.

Ecclesiastes is great.

A fellow board member once said:

"The Message succeeds in making Ecclesiastes even more depressing."

[Nicene]

I've struggled with evolution recently, I was at once a rabid fundamentalist who was fully into the Old earth creation idea till I saw what evidence there was scientifically and I could not answer the evolutionists anymore and It soon became apparent I was wrong.

But when I found orthodoxy I realised something fundamental to Christainity, that is the ressurection and death. Death is the enemy so how could god Create a system in which animals die which would lead to us? I find this to be the only real problem concerning evolution in my mind, the problem of death and how it merges with Christanity and what Paul says, that death is the enemy.

At this moment I don't know, I don't begrudge the ardent evolutionist nor really the creationist, I simply see it as an issue which is of little importance when compared to the ressurection.

[NicholasMyra]

Death is the enemy so how could god Create a system in which animals die which would lead to us?

"Forming light, preparing darkness; making peace, preparing evil: I am the Lord, doing all these things." -Isaiah 45

God brings good out of chaos, does he not?

[Achronos]

I believe that evolution for people can be very axiomatic but I must reject that, as I also believe it to be interconnected with nihilism. It is extremely odious to rationally accept that the "germation" period from which man was wrought indicates its true value. The assured fact that you are the direct result of amino acids and proteins from a cauldron shows that man's worth is essentially worthless. I also outright reject any notion to classify or categorize man, because the best answer for a man is simply mystery. Man is against the entirety of the animals based on his being and to box him into a nice little chart about what he supposedly is, simply is futile. Man can be animalistic, yes, but he can also be divine. However in order to understand the full scope of man it must be viewed in the lens of God creating man in His own image and likeness. If we remove the latter, then there is nothing remarkable about man and his supposed origin does nothing but undermine him. Now I'm not entirely obdurate in my position, and I do remain a strong agnostic but I am less hesitant than I was a year ago on being more receptive to evolution because I do feel it has consequences. Whatever happened with death before the Fall has no bearing on my faith and I'm sure with enough cerebration I can resolve it. But I don't need to give it much attention or thought, leaving man as a mystery more than fulfills me.

[Aindriú]

I think that's the first time I've agreed with you, Achronos.

[Tallitot]

one hypothosis on prehistoric human behavior:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zX53PVe8Rck

[orthonorm]

Redacted.

[Achronos]

Also even with what I said, the most important part about man is the less he is like Christ the less human he is. Just like the more one becomes Christ the more he is human.

[neon_knights]

Also even with what I said, the most important part about man is the less he is like Christ the less human he is. Just like the more one becomes Christ the more he is human.

I like this idea.

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

Also even with what I said, the most important part about man is the less he is like Christ the less human he is. Just like the more one becomes Christ the more he is human.

I like this idea.

I understand the sentiment behind this comment, and I think I essentially agree with it. However, the wording troubles me. I think we have to be careful about assessing "how human" people are. Such assessments can lead to insidious consequences. I would prefer to say that "the less he is like Christ, the less he is acting in accordance with his divine image. Just like the more one become like Christ, the more he is acting in accordance with his divine image."



Selam

[Achronos]

As Pascal said, we do not even know ourselves except through Jesus Christ.

[Rufus]

Every time I see new posts in the thread, I cringe. But this time, I actually thought some people were raising some interesting points.

I've had several Evolution discussions with friends, but I always come away disappointed. It seems that very, very few Christians actually think about the real implications of Evolution. For the record, I believe in the theory without reservations, and I'm really uncomfortable with the fact that educated people continue to deny its existence publically. That's a much bigger problem than any theological issues.

Ok I think you said it earlier but the conception of death before the Fall is problematic.

If you allegorize the Garden of Eden to mean "the pre-lapsarian world", perhaps. But that is an allegorical statement that many disagree with.

The Garden of Eden is not an allegory. It is a myth. Whether allegory is proper to myth is another question.

This is where knowing your genre is helpful.

But this is old news and boring. Anyone who tries to allegorize it to fit science or simply to take it as science it just missing the point completely and uninteresting.

Historically, there have been three Christian views on the Creation and Eden narratives: either they are literally true, or they are allegories, or some combination of the two. I agree with you that "myth" is the proper description. There is no way to fit the stories to the known narrative of the human past without obfuscating their point. This compells some of us to say that the Church Fathers were generally incorrect in their precise understanding of these passages, a fact which makes it impossible to discuss these issues within some Orthodox circles. I'm willing to bite the bullet on "following" the Church Fathers when it comes to things like this.

The big problem is clearly mortality before the Fall. There are various solutions to this issue, none without their own problems.

But the issue of prelapsarian death doesn't occurr to most people. Most people get caught up on the question of whether humans are animals. I say that humans are, indeed, animals. The fact that we have relatively powerful intellects doesn't change that. I think this is a non-problem.

I don't know what other questions Evolution raises for us. I haven't been able to think of any.

Ruf

[minasoliman]

Every time I see new posts in the thread, I cringe. But this time, I actually thought some people were raising some interesting points.

I've had several Evolution discussions with friends, but I always come away disappointed. It seems that very, very few Christians actually think about the real implications of Evolution. For the record, I believe in the theory without reservations, and I'm really uncomfortable with the fact that educated people continue to deny its existence publically. That's a much bigger problem than any theological issues.

Ok I think you said it earlier but the conception of death before the Fall is problematic.

If you allegorize the Garden of Eden to mean "the pre-lapsarian world", perhaps. But that is an allegorical statement that many disagree with.

The Garden of Eden is not an allegory. It is a myth. Whether allegory is proper to myth is another question.

This is where knowing your genre is helpful.

But this is old news and boring. Anyone who tries to allegorize it to fit science or simply to take it as science it just missing the point completely and uninteresting.

Historically, there have been three Christian views on the Creation and Eden narratives: either they are literally true, or they are allegories, or some combination of the two. I agree with you that "myth" is the proper description. There is no way to fit the stories to the known narrative of the human past without obfuscating their point. This compells some of us to say that the Church Fathers were generally incorrect in their precise understanding of these passages, a fact which makes it impossible to discuss these issues within some Orthodox circles. I'm willing to bite the bullet on "following" the Church Fathers when it comes to things like this.

The big problem is clearly mortality before the Fall. There are various solutions to this issue, none without their own problems.

But the issue of prelapsarian death doesn't occurr to most people. Most people get caught up on the question of whether humans are animals. I say that humans are, indeed, animals. The fact that we have relatively powerful intellects doesn't change that. I think this is a non-problem.

I don't know what other questions Evolution raises for us. I haven't been able to think of any.

Ruf

I would say Scriptural literalism is a problem with Protestants primarily.  With Orthodox, it's primarily preAdamic mortality.  The idea that humans are animals is just an added ridicule mixed with semantics by any group who grows to loathe evolution.

[Achronos]

nvm forget it

[Rufus]

I would say Scriptural literalism is a problem with Protestants primarily.  With Orthodox, it's primarily preAdamic mortality.  The idea that humans are animals is just an added ridicule mixed with semantics by any group who grows to loathe evolution.

Oh, I don't know. It's certainly more of a problem for Evangelicals, but I know more Orthodox than I'd like to think who insist on Scriptural literalism. It is, after all, the predominant traditional view in the Orthodox Church, although not so much among theologians.

[Manalive]

Creation is taught by the Church Fathers. Anyone who believes in evolution is following their own judgments and is not in the spirit of the Fathers.  You only have this allegory and myth nonsense to interpreting Genesis since the 19th century.

I would say Scriptural literalism is a problem with Protestants primarily.  With Orthodox, it's primarily preAdamic mortality.  The idea that humans are animals is just an added ridicule mixed with semantics by any group who grows to loathe evolution.

This is the stuff Chesterton talks about in "The Everlasting Man" and "Orthodoxy"-- people have replaced their ability to imagine with a rationalistic mindset that takes everything at face value. The world was different before the Fall. Who knows what anything was like before then? The science of fallen man can't understand or measure the world before the Fall. I don't have a problem believing in Six Days of Creation because the principles of nature were drastically different before then.

"Of what use men are geometry--the calculations of arithmetic--the study of solids and far-famed astronomy, this laborious vanity, if those who pursue them imagine that this visible world is co-eternal with the Creator of all things, with God Himself; if they attribute to this limited world, which has a material body, the same glory as to the incomprehensible and invisible nature; if they cannot conceive that a whole, of which the parts are subject to corruption and change, must of necessity end by itself submitting to the fate of its parts? But they have become "vain in their imaginations and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." Some have affirmed that heaven co-exists with God from all eternity; others that it is God Himself without beginning or end, and the cause of the particular arrangement of all things...  At all events let us prefer the simplicity of faith to the demonstrations of reason.

On The Hexaemeron by St. Basil the Great
http://www.fisheaters.com/hexaemeron.html

[Tzimis]

Creation is taught by the Church Fathers. Anyone who believes in evolution is following their own judgments and is not in the spirit of the Fathers.  You only have this allegory and myth nonsense to interpreting Genesis since the 19th century.

I would say Scriptural literalism is a problem with Protestants primarily.  With Orthodox, it's primarily preAdamic mortality.  The idea that humans are animals is just an added ridicule mixed with semantics by any group who grows to loathe evolution.

This is the stuff Chesterton talks about in "The Everlasting Man" and "Orthodoxy"-- people have replaced their ability to imagine with a rationalistic mindset that takes everything at face value. The world was different before the Fall. Who knows what anything was like before then? The science of fallen man can't understand or measure the world before the Fall. I don't have a problem believing in Six Days of Creation because the principles of nature were drastically different before then.

"Of what use men are geometry--the calculations of arithmetic--the study of solids and far-famed astronomy, this laborious vanity, if those who pursue them imagine that this visible world is co-eternal with the Creator of all things, with God Himself; if they attribute to this limited world, which has a material body, the same glory as to the incomprehensible and invisible nature; if they cannot conceive that a whole, of which the parts are subject to corruption and change, must of necessity end by itself submitting to the fate of its parts? But they have become "vain in their imaginations and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." Some have affirmed that heaven co-exists with God from all eternity; others that it is God Himself without beginning or end, and the cause of the particular arrangement of all things...  At all events let us prefer the simplicity of faith to the demonstrations of reason.

On The Hexaemeron by St. Basil the Great
http://www.fisheaters.com/hexaemeron.html

I don't think that anyone here is denying a creative act by a deity. Why couldn't god be the creator of the big bang for instance. This entire mystery of the universe is tied intrinsically into our understanding of our own nature. Clarity is a gift from god and than. The rendition of the creation narrative is view in a different light.

[Manalive]

Creation is taught by the Church Fathers. Anyone who believes in evolution is following their own judgments and is not in the spirit of the Fathers.  You only have this allegory and myth nonsense to interpreting Genesis since the 19th century.

I would say Scriptural literalism is a problem with Protestants primarily.  With Orthodox, it's primarily preAdamic mortality.  The idea that humans are animals is just an added ridicule mixed with semantics by any group who grows to loathe evolution.

This is the stuff Chesterton talks about in "The Everlasting Man" and "Orthodoxy"-- people have replaced their ability to imagine with a rationalistic mindset that takes everything at face value. The world was different before the Fall. Who knows what anything was like before then? The science of fallen man can't understand or measure the world before the Fall. I don't have a problem believing in Six Days of Creation because the principles of nature were drastically different before then.

"Of what use men are geometry--the calculations of arithmetic--the study of solids and far-famed astronomy, this laborious vanity, if those who pursue them imagine that this visible world is co-eternal with the Creator of all things, with God Himself; if they attribute to this limited world, which has a material body, the same glory as to the incomprehensible and invisible nature; if they cannot conceive that a whole, of which the parts are subject to corruption and change, must of necessity end by itself submitting to the fate of its parts? But they have become "vain in their imaginations and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." Some have affirmed that heaven co-exists with God from all eternity; others that it is God Himself without beginning or end, and the cause of the particular arrangement of all things...  At all events let us prefer the simplicity of faith to the demonstrations of reason.

On The Hexaemeron by St. Basil the Great
http://www.fisheaters.com/hexaemeron.html

I don't think that anyone here is denying a creative act by a deity. Why couldn't god be the creator of the big bang for instance. This entire mystery of the universe is tied intrinsically into our understanding of our own nature. Clarity is a gift from god and than. The rendition of the creation narrative is view in a different light.

I'm not arguing anyone is denying a creative act by God. I'm arguing the Fathers interpreted Genesis literally. Why couldn't God be the creator of things as is understood by the Fathers?

[PeterTheAleut]

Creation is taught by the Church Fathers. Anyone who believes in evolution is following their own judgments and is not in the spirit of the Fathers.  You only have this allegory and myth nonsense to interpreting Genesis since the 19th century.

I would say Scriptural literalism is a problem with Protestants primarily.  With Orthodox, it's primarily preAdamic mortality.  The idea that humans are animals is just an added ridicule mixed with semantics by any group who grows to loathe evolution.

This is the stuff Chesterton talks about in "The Everlasting Man" and "Orthodoxy"-- people have replaced their ability to imagine with a rationalistic mindset that takes everything at face value. The world was different before the Fall. Who knows what anything was like before then? The science of fallen man can't understand or measure the world before the Fall. I don't have a problem believing in Six Days of Creation because the principles of nature were drastically different before then.

So the fall of man from grace totally and radically changed the whole universe, including those quasars billions of light years away from earth?

[Kerdy]

"Knowledge will increase, but it will not save them."

As a result of the repeated errors made by scientists, I have little faith in there massive claims and hold firmly to the biblical account of creationism.  I find it impossible to merge evolution with the biblical account of creation.  Of course, those who believe in evolution think me foolish and ridicule my views, but they never are able to answer some very basic questions and repeat the mantra, "We are learning more everyday." That is when I start to remember bits of scripture related to mankind in the, then, future.  In our self-righteous quest to control all things and be the biggest brain on the block, we have lost our path in relation to God.  When someone can prove evolution, I will believe it.  So far, no one has been able to do so.  Their inability is the force which drove me away from it.  And please do not ask me what I need proven.  I need nothing after decades of failure.  I know what I now believe after extensive investigation.  I only provide my thoughts here.

[Manalive]

Creation is taught by the Church Fathers. Anyone who believes in evolution is following their own judgments and is not in the spirit of the Fathers.  You only have this allegory and myth nonsense to interpreting Genesis since the 19th century.

I would say Scriptural literalism is a problem with Protestants primarily.  With Orthodox, it's primarily preAdamic mortality.  The idea that humans are animals is just an added ridicule mixed with semantics by any group who grows to loathe evolution.

This is the stuff Chesterton talks about in "The Everlasting Man" and "Orthodoxy"-- people have replaced their ability to imagine with a rationalistic mindset that takes everything at face value. The world was different before the Fall. Who knows what anything was like before then? The science of fallen man can't understand or measure the world before the Fall. I don't have a problem believing in Six Days of Creation because the principles of nature were drastically different before then.

So the fall of man from grace totally and radically changed the whole universe, including those quasars billions of light years away from earth?

In as much as we've contacted it, I might guess. I have little knowledge about our own earth I walk on, much less something far away. I know the entire natural world was corrupted by our fall.

 Are Adam and Eve real or allegorical to you Peter?

[PeterTheAleut]

Creation is taught by the Church Fathers. Anyone who believes in evolution is following their own judgments and is not in the spirit of the Fathers.  You only have this allegory and myth nonsense to interpreting Genesis since the 19th century.

I would say Scriptural literalism is a problem with Protestants primarily.  With Orthodox, it's primarily preAdamic mortality.  The idea that humans are animals is just an added ridicule mixed with semantics by any group who grows to loathe evolution.

This is the stuff Chesterton talks about in "The Everlasting Man" and "Orthodoxy"-- people have replaced their ability to imagine with a rationalistic mindset that takes everything at face value. The world was different before the Fall. Who knows what anything was like before then? The science of fallen man can't understand or measure the world before the Fall. I don't have a problem believing in Six Days of Creation because the principles of nature were drastically different before then.

So the fall of man from grace totally and radically changed the whole universe, including those quasars billions of light years away from earth?

In as much as we've contacted it, I might guess. I have little knowledge about our own earth I walk on, much less something far away. I know the entire natural world was corrupted by our fall.

 Are Adam and Eve real or allegorical to you Peter?

Why only those two options?

[ZealousZeal]

Creation is taught by the Church Fathers. Anyone who believes in evolution is following their own judgments and is not in the spirit of the Fathers.  You only have this allegory and myth nonsense to interpreting Genesis since the 19th century.

By default- they did not have access to the science that we now do. The Fathers could have believed the earth was flat or that the sun revolved around the earth, would we be bound to believe that, too?

[Kerdy]

Creation is taught by the Church Fathers. Anyone who believes in evolution is following their own judgments and is not in the spirit of the Fathers.  You only have this allegory and myth nonsense to interpreting Genesis since the 19th century.

I would say Scriptural literalism is a problem with Protestants primarily.  With Orthodox, it's primarily preAdamic mortality.  The idea that humans are animals is just an added ridicule mixed with semantics by any group who grows to loathe evolution.

This is the stuff Chesterton talks about in "The Everlasting Man" and "Orthodoxy"-- people have replaced their ability to imagine with a rationalistic mindset that takes everything at face value. The world was different before the Fall. Who knows what anything was like before then? The science of fallen man can't understand or measure the world before the Fall. I don't have a problem believing in Six Days of Creation because the principles of nature were drastically different before then.

So the fall of man from grace totally and radically changed the whole universe, including those quasars billions of light years away from earth?

In as much as we've contacted it, I might guess. I have little knowledge about our own earth I walk on, much less something far away. I know the entire natural world was corrupted by our fall.

 Are Adam and Eve real or allegorical to you Peter?

Why only those two options?

Peter, please forgive my intrusion into your conversation.  I was hoping you could elaborate and explain what other options are possible outside real or not real.  I am genuinely curious.  Thank you.

[Asteriktos]

I don't understand this antipatristic stand for literalism. For example, was the phrase "garments of skin" taken literally or allegorically by the Fathers? The answer is both, and they gave an interpretation that rose above both and resulted in a unified interpretation that got at the spiritually important (=deathly important) stuff involved in such passages.

[PeterTheAleut]

Creation is taught by the Church Fathers. Anyone who believes in evolution is following their own judgments and is not in the spirit of the Fathers.  You only have this allegory and myth nonsense to interpreting Genesis since the 19th century.

I would say Scriptural literalism is a problem with Protestants primarily.  With Orthodox, it's primarily preAdamic mortality.  The idea that humans are animals is just an added ridicule mixed with semantics by any group who grows to loathe evolution.

This is the stuff Chesterton talks about in "The Everlasting Man" and "Orthodoxy"-- people have replaced their ability to imagine with a rationalistic mindset that takes everything at face value. The world was different before the Fall. Who knows what anything was like before then? The science of fallen man can't understand or measure the world before the Fall. I don't have a problem believing in Six Days of Creation because the principles of nature were drastically different before then.

So the fall of man from grace totally and radically changed the whole universe, including those quasars billions of light years away from earth?

In as much as we've contacted it, I might guess. I have little knowledge about our own earth I walk on, much less something far away. I know the entire natural world was corrupted by our fall.

 Are Adam and Eve real or allegorical to you Peter?

Why only those two options?

Peter, please forgive my intrusion into your conversation.  I was hoping you could elaborate and explain what other options are possible outside real or not real.  I am genuinely curious.  Thank you.

I'm questioning only Manalive's dichotomy between real and allegorical. You're bringing up a different dichotomy, that of real vs. unreal. I don't believe that allegorical necessarily equals not real.

[Kerdy]

Creation is taught by the Church Fathers. Anyone who believes in evolution is following their own judgments and is not in the spirit of the Fathers.  You only have this allegory and myth nonsense to interpreting Genesis since the 19th century.

I would say Scriptural literalism is a problem with Protestants primarily.  With Orthodox, it's primarily preAdamic mortality.  The idea that humans are animals is just an added ridicule mixed with semantics by any group who grows to loathe evolution.

This is the stuff Chesterton talks about in "The Everlasting Man" and "Orthodoxy"-- people have replaced their ability to imagine with a rationalistic mindset that takes everything at face value. The world was different before the Fall. Who knows what anything was like before then? The science of fallen man can't understand or measure the world before the Fall. I don't have a problem believing in Six Days of Creation because the principles of nature were drastically different before then.

So the fall of man from grace totally and radically changed the whole universe, including those quasars billions of light years away from earth?

In as much as we've contacted it, I might guess. I have little knowledge about our own earth I walk on, much less something far away. I know the entire natural world was corrupted by our fall.

 Are Adam and Eve real or allegorical to you Peter?

Why only those two options?

Peter, please forgive my intrusion into your conversation.  I was hoping you could elaborate and explain what other options are possible outside real or not real.  I am genuinely curious.  Thank you.

I'm questioning only Manalive's dichotomy between real and allegorical. You're bringing up a different dichotomy, that of real vs. unreal. I don't believe that allegorical necessarily equals not real.

I understand and see now where I became confused.  Thank you for explaining.

[chrevbel]

The world was different before the Fall. Who knows what anything was like before then? The science of fallen man can't understand or measure the world before the Fall.

Science doesn't attempt to address the Fall at all.  But what science can do is to understand that animals existed and were killing and eating each other for many millions of years before man even existed, and to measure the time in which they were doing that.

Creation is taught by the Church Fathers.

And understanding evolution doesn't require denying creation.

Anyone who believes in evolution is following their own judgments and is not in the spirit of the Fathers.

There was a time that the liturgy included praying for those traveling by land and by sea.  Later, it included those traveling by air.  And later it included those traveling by space.  How does learning new things and achieving greater understanding violate the spirit of the Fathers?

[Rufus]

I see this thread has reverted to form overnight.

[PeterTheAleut]

I see this thread has reverted to form overnight.

YYYUP!

[orthonorm]

I see this thread has reverted to form overnight.

I'm working on it.

[Achronos]

I see this thread has reverted to form overnight.

I'm working on it.

I won't allow you to evolve this discussion.

[Asteriktos]

Creation is taught by the Church Fathers. Anyone who believes in evolution is following their own judgments and is not in the spirit of the Fathers.  You only have this allegory and myth nonsense to interpreting Genesis since the 19th century.

By default- they did not have access to the science that we now do. The Fathers could have believed the earth was flat or that the sun revolved around the earth, would we be bound to believe that, too?

Another one--one we still use in our hymns, as far as I know--is the concept of the four elements making up everything that exists.

[NicholasMyra]

Geocentrism is taught by the Church Fathers. Anyone who believes in Heliocentrism is following their own judgments and is not in the spirit of the Fathers.  You only have this allegory and myth nonsense to interpreting Genesis since the 15th century.

Humorism is taught by the Church Fathers. Anyone who believes in Modern Medicine is following their own judgments and is not in the spirit of the Fathers. You only have this allegory and myth nonsense to interpreting Genesis since the 19th century.

Celestial Spheres were taught by the Church Fathers. Anyone who believes in Elliptical Orbits is following their own judgments and is not in the spirit of the Fathers.  You only have this allegory and myth nonsense to interpreting Genesis since the 17th century.

[Achronos]

It is quite true that evolution is false because clearly my co-worker hasn't moved up the evolutionary chain like the rest of us have.

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