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Question: Do you believe that the acount of genesis in the Old testament should be taken literally?
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Author Topic: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy  (Read 348101 times) Average Rating: 0
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orthonorm
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« Reply #4185 on: July 18, 2012, 12:12:46 AM »

Every week someone tries to make a monkey out of me, why would I willingly subscribe to a philosophy that also wants to make me out of a monkey?

You prefer God to breathe life into dirt straight from the ground, rather than an evolved animal then?

Well, sure, if only because "It is written"

Although I lean towards young earth creationism as, for example, St. Ephrem the Syrian did, I have no problem with those who emphasize the allegorical dimension of Genesis as Bl. Augustine did.

I think there is room for both views in the Church since Creation sciences are by necessity speculative rather than empirical sciences.

It could have happened either way, WHICH WAY is above both our pay grades to determine.

So this will not be the thread to discuss anything seriously, obviously.
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« Reply #4186 on: July 18, 2012, 12:14:48 AM »

So orthornorm are you saying that if we evolved from apes we run into the problem of being created in the image and likeness of God?

No one but Creationists believe we evolved from apes. Evolutionary biology contends that humans and apes share a common ancestor.

None of this matters really. The worst characterization of "evolution" by the most uninformed creationist is just as problematic for Christian anthropology as the most refined statement by someone working within evolutionary biology.

Arguing over "scientific trivialities" takes away from the larger discussion and exposes a similar ideology shared by both groups: the triumph of mathematical-physical-organizational empiricism as the operative way of discussing the question.

The primary question raised against Christian anthropology by evolution by anyone's understanding is primarily the advent of death before the fall. (The question of animality is a secondary one and one which when I raised in a most simple fashion here, fell to silence, which is why I don't find putting much energy into these discussions is very productive.)

Christian theology is touched by the question, while thinking proper (philosophy) approaches the questions of origins in a more primordial, radical manner which always precedes such organizational projects like the mathematical physical sciences.


That would definitely make for an interesting discussion.
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« Reply #4187 on: July 18, 2012, 12:17:18 AM »

Every week someone tries to make a monkey out of me, why would I willingly subscribe to a philosophy that also wants to make me out of a monkey?

You prefer God to breathe life into dirt straight from the ground, rather than an evolved animal then?

Well, sure, if only because "It is written"

Although I lean towards young earth creationism as, for example, St. Ephrem the Syrian did, I have no problem with those who emphasize the allegorical dimension of Genesis as Bl. Augustine did.

I think there is room for both views in the Church since Creation sciences are by necessity speculative rather than empirical sciences.

It could have happened either way, WHICH WAY is above both our pay grades to determine.

So this will not be the thread to discuss anything seriously, obviously.

Yes, obviously. But not for the reason you think.
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« Reply #4188 on: July 18, 2012, 12:20:03 AM »

.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 12:33:16 AM by truthseeker32 » Logged
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« Reply #4189 on: July 18, 2012, 12:20:28 AM »

It could have happened either way, WHICH WAY is above both our pay grades to determine.

Give me some time, I can't do things overnight Smiley
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« Reply #4190 on: July 18, 2012, 12:21:57 AM »

I think the story of evolution is kind of neat. The development of a single human person is like an allegory of the evolution of the human species. We begin as a very simple zygote, and evolve into a human infant, then exit the womb and grow to maturity. Evolution could be compared to this journey. Our evolution from a simple cell organism to a being with reason is like our gestation and birth, and our growth from infancy to adulthood is like theosis; moving from a rational being to a deified being.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 12:23:54 AM by truthseeker32 » Logged
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« Reply #4191 on: July 18, 2012, 12:22:20 AM »

Every week someone tries to make a monkey out of me, why would I willingly subscribe to a philosophy that also wants to make me out of a monkey?
Congratulations! You just made the OCnet Quotable Quotes thread. Grin
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« Reply #4192 on: July 18, 2012, 12:25:00 AM »

Every week someone tries to make a monkey out of me, why would I willingly subscribe to a philosophy that also wants to make me out of a monkey?
Congratulations! You just made the OCnet Quotable Quotes thread. Grin

I am honored Peter, thank you.

Although I have sometimes been derided as a fundamentalist, I do hope I am more often fun than "mental".
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« Reply #4193 on: July 18, 2012, 12:25:53 AM »

Ok I think you said it earlier but the conception of death before the Fall is problematic.
If you allegorize the Garden of Eden to mean "the pre-lapsarian world", perhaps. But that is an allegorical statement that many disagree with.
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« Reply #4194 on: July 18, 2012, 12:27:15 AM »

So orthornorm are you saying that if we evolved from apes we run into the problem of being created in the image and likeness of God?

No one but Creationists believe we evolved from apes. Evolutionary biology contends that humans and apes share a common ancestor.

None of this matters really. The worst characterization of "evolution" by the most uninformed creationist is just as problematic for Christian anthropology as the most refined statement by someone working within evolutionary biology.

Arguing over "scientific trivialities" takes away from the larger discussion and exposes a similar ideology shared by both groups: the triumph of mathematical-physical-organizational empiricism as the operative way of discussing the question.

The primary question raised against Christian anthropology by evolution by anyone's understanding is primarily the advent of death before the fall. (The question of animality is a secondary one and one which when I raised in a most simple fashion here, fell to silence, which is why I don't find putting much energy into these discussions is very productive.)

Christian theology is touched by the question, while thinking proper (philosophy) approaches the questions of origins in a more primordial, radical manner which always precedes such organizational projects like the mathematical physical sciences.


That would definitely make for an interesting discussion.

I've had the pleasure of having discussed this seriously with Priests and Orthodox thinkers concerned about it.

Frankly I am more interested in the second question concerning animality, especially as my body continues to breakdown in wonderfully new ways.

Posts within the thread that touched on the issue:

The real answer to this would probably take a fairly large tome to explain. Actually, strike that, from what I've read, Christians throughout the centuries admitted that they couldn't precisely put their finger on this. If we are made in the image of God, and God is as mysterious as we say, then it stands to reason that we also are beyond being fully understandable (for a somewhat more philosophical version of this, see St. Gregory of Nyssa's On the Making of Man, 11). However, if someone put a gun to my head and asked me to sum things up in one statement, it'd probably be something along the lines of: a person is an animal with the ability to be deified.

Animality might not be proper to persons from a fundamental ontology.

Certainly it is not from a traditional Christian viewpoint.

After all two persons of the Trinity certainly are outside of the animal kingdom no matter how anyone cuts it.

Then you have the matter of the noetic beings. Are they persons?

You can check out the rest of the thread.

Start a thread strictly about the advent of death before the fall, but I think animality and whether persons are radically animal becomes a problem along the way.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 12:28:02 AM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #4195 on: July 18, 2012, 12:27:26 AM »

Every week someone tries to make a monkey out of me, why would I willingly subscribe to a philosophy that also wants to make me out of a monkey?
Why the low view of primates?
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« Reply #4196 on: July 18, 2012, 12:28:25 AM »

Every week someone tries to make a monkey out of me, why would I willingly subscribe to a philosophy that also wants to make me out of a monkey?
Congratulations! You just made the OCnet Quotable Quotes thread. Grin

I am honored Peter, thank you.

Although I have sometimes been derided as a fundamentalist, I do hope I am more often fun than "mental".
Yeah, I got a good laugh out of your play on words, so I'd say you succeeded at being more fun than mental.
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« Reply #4197 on: July 18, 2012, 12:29:17 AM »

Every week someone tries to make a monkey out of me, why would I willingly subscribe to a philosophy that also wants to make me out of a monkey?
Why the low view of primates?

I will tell you after I run out of Kleenex, that hurt my feelings *sniff*
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« Reply #4198 on: July 18, 2012, 12:31:22 AM »

Ok I think you said it earlier but the conception of death before the Fall is problematic.
If you allegorize the Garden of Eden to mean "the pre-lapsarian world", perhaps. But that is an allegorical statement that many disagree with.

The Garden of Eden is not an allegory. It is a myth. Whether allegory is proper to myth is another question.

This is where knowing your genre is helpful.

But this is old news and boring. Anyone who tries to allegorize it to fit science or simply to take it as science it just missing the point completely and uninteresting.
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« Reply #4199 on: July 18, 2012, 12:35:57 AM »

Gabriel, for a new look at Evolution I suggest you go visit one of the Creationist 'museums'  *** Shudders**
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« Reply #4200 on: July 18, 2012, 12:38:37 AM »

Ok I think you said it earlier but the conception of death before the Fall is problematic.
If you allegorize the Garden of Eden to mean "the pre-lapsarian world", perhaps. But that is an allegorical statement that many disagree with.

The Garden of Eden is not an allegory. It is a myth. Whether allegory is proper to myth is another question.

This is where knowing your genre is helpful.
I agree. And I'm saying that fundamentalist protestants and the like allegorize Eden in the Genesis myth as "the unfallen world."
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« Reply #4201 on: July 18, 2012, 12:40:42 AM »

Gabriel, for a new look at Evolution I suggest you go visit one of the Creationist 'museums'  *** Shudders**

No one will go with me. I've been dying to go. Well some people want to drag me, I work with people who gave thousands to the place. Everyone else thinks I just want to go and laugh for a few hours.

They are correct but only afterward.

I sincerely want to see the place in action and take in the all the insight. Their "science fair" guidelines were something of genius. Probably the most sophisticated development of what should pass for a science project, until the proof-text caveats. I wonder if they are still posted . . .

I have to see that place some day.
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« Reply #4202 on: July 18, 2012, 12:41:11 AM »

Ok I think you said it earlier but the conception of death before the Fall is problematic.
If you allegorize the Garden of Eden to mean "the pre-lapsarian world", perhaps. But that is an allegorical statement that many disagree with.

The Garden of Eden is not an allegory. It is a myth. Whether allegory is proper to myth is another question.

This is where knowing your genre is helpful.

But this is old news and boring. Anyone who tries to allegorize it to fit science or simply to take it as science it just missing the point completely and uninteresting.

But, Norm, when the Church says something is allegorical it does not mean we are trying to fit it to science. Allegory is trying to fit the details of what may or may not be literal history to a Truth of the Faith.

Using the early Christian Quadriga method of Scriptural interpretation there are literal, allegorical, tropological and anagogical meanings co-existing and complementing one another in many verses of Scripture without cancelling each other out.

Knowing our genres is helpful but we must know those genres in their original context rather than defining the genres of ancient texts with modern definitions.

Is the creation account of Genesis literal or allegorical? The answer is, "Yes."
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« Reply #4203 on: July 18, 2012, 12:43:29 AM »

Not nearly as formalized as when I last checked but interesting nonetheless:

Quote
We recommend that you follow the basic guidelines found in the Intel Science and Engineering Fair Rules and Regulations (off-site link). Following these guidelines will insure that you will have the opportunity to submit your project to a local or regional science fair that uses these guidelines. Specific guidelines for the presentation of projects and research will be provided to those selected for the final competition.

Link below for guidelines.

http://creationmuseum.org/special-events/science-fair/guidelines/
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« Reply #4204 on: July 18, 2012, 12:45:31 AM »

I'm sure the thread that PtA linked will go over this somewhere (I haven't read it- too long), but I'll take a crack at the OP and try to be brief:

There seems to be several types of evolution and I was hoping someone could give me a precise meaning when they say 'evolution'.  Also, is it compatible within a Christian view, or does it weaken Christianity?

I presume you are talking about (and I could be wrong, so if I am feel free to disregard) what is popularly referred to as "microevolution" and "macroevolution". Microevolution is taken to mean merely changes within a species that do not change the species itself (like the color of wings on a moth, or why we have Golden Retrievers and Chihuahuas, though both are dogs), and macroevolution is usually used interchangeably with speciation. They are often considered two separate concepts entirely in some Christian circles, and I've known many a Christian to say "I believe in microevolution, not macroevolution."

However, biologists use the terms microevolution and macroevolution to refer to the same process (evolution), with micro and macro distinguishing time. Wikipedia explains this well:

Quote
Scientific organizations such as the American Association for the Advancement of Science describe microevolution as small scale change within species, and macroevolution as the formation of new species, but otherwise not being different from microevolution. In macroevolution, an accumulation of microevolutionary changes leads to speciation.[50] The main difference between the two processes is that one occurs within a few generations, whilst the other takes place over thousands of years (i.e. a quantitative difference).[51] Essentially they describe the same process; although evolution beyond the species level results in beginning and ending generations which could not interbreed, the intermediate generations could. Even changes in the number of chromosomes can be accounted for by intermediate stages in which a single chromosome divides in generational stages, or multiple chromosomes fuse. A well documented example is the chromosome difference between humans and great apes.[52] Contrary to the claims of some antievolution proponents, evolution of life forms beyond the species level ("macroevolution", i.e. speciation) has indeed been observed and documented by scientists on numerous occasions.

The difference is quantitative, not qualitative. Hope that helps!
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« Reply #4205 on: July 18, 2012, 12:46:17 AM »

Ok I think you said it earlier but the conception of death before the Fall is problematic.
If you allegorize the Garden of Eden to mean "the pre-lapsarian world", perhaps. But that is an allegorical statement that many disagree with.

The Garden of Eden is not an allegory. It is a myth. Whether allegory is proper to myth is another question.

This is where knowing your genre is helpful.

But this is old news and boring. Anyone who tries to allegorize it to fit science or simply to take it as science it just missing the point completely and uninteresting.

But, Norm, when the Church says something is allegorical it does not mean we are trying to fit it to science. Allegory is trying to fit the details of what may or may not be literal history to a Truth of the Faith.

Using the early Christian Quadriga method of Scriptural interpretation there are literal, allegorical, tropological and anagogical meanings co-existing and complementing one another in many verses of Scripture without cancelling each other out.

Knowing our genres is helpful but we must know those genres in their original context rather than defining the genres of ancient texts with modern definitions.

Is the creation account of Genesis literal or allegorical? The answer is, "Yes."

David, trust me, I simplify here as not to waste my energy on pointless sophistication. Really, you ain't saying nothing interesting or productive here. You have your "tradition".

Enjoy it.

But don't assume that those who find your approach to be tiresome and well trod and lacking to be ignorant.
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« Reply #4206 on: July 18, 2012, 12:49:36 AM »

Oh forget it. You guys went down all kinds of other roads while I was typing.  Cheesy

Gabriel- get yourself a large bowl of popcorn or a few pizzas or whatever it is you enjoy, set yourself up with some intravenous hydration and settle down for a couple of years as orthonorm suggested while reading that thread. All will be revealed! Or obfuscated! Who can say, really?

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« Reply #4207 on: July 18, 2012, 12:53:44 AM »

Oh, my work is finished here. And I think that your explanation Zealous to Gabriel is a good one. I am not sure why lay persons think they need to get caught up in all the minutiae over evolution. Why not other problematic issues?

Why aren't Christians so disturbed by the Uncertainty Principle?
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« Reply #4208 on: July 18, 2012, 12:54:19 AM »

"Students should be able, with a clear conscience, to sign the AiG Statement of Faith, which upholds the belief in the creation of the universe in six, twenty-four-hour days about 6,000 years ago by the Creator God as revealed in the Bible."

That's one of the silliest things I have ever read.

Every Orthodox Christian worth his salt and who follows the Septuagint knows that the REAL Etos Kosmou is closer to like 7521 Anno Mundi. Well, everyone except Blessed Augustine who, although he sparred with Blessed Jerome over his own preference for the LXX did express more trust in the Hebrew chronology in the City of God. But I digress....
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« Reply #4209 on: July 18, 2012, 12:55:32 AM »

So orthornorm are you saying that if we evolved from apes we run into the problem of being created in the image and likeness of God?

No one but Creationists believe we evolved from apes. Evolutionary biology contends that humans and apes share a common ancestor.

None of this matters really. The worst characterization of "evolution" by the most uninformed creationist is just as problematic for Christian anthropology as the most refined statement by someone working within evolutionary biology.

Arguing over "scientific trivialities" takes away from the larger discussion and exposes a similar ideology shared by both groups: the triumph of mathematical-physical-organizational empiricism as the operative way of discussing the question.

The primary question raised against Christian anthropology by evolution by anyone's understanding is primarily the advent of death before the fall. (The question of animality is a secondary one and one which when I raised in a most simple fashion here, fell to silence, which is why I don't find putting much energy into these discussions is very productive.)

Christian theology is touched by the question, while thinking proper (philosophy) approaches the questions of origins in a more primordial, radical manner which always precedes such organizational projects like the mathematical physical sciences.


That would definitely make for an interesting discussion.

I've had the pleasure of having discussed this seriously with Priests and Orthodox thinkers concerned about it.

Frankly I am more interested in the second question concerning animality, especially as my body continues to breakdown in wonderfully new ways.

Posts within the thread that touched on the issue:

The real answer to this would probably take a fairly large tome to explain. Actually, strike that, from what I've read, Christians throughout the centuries admitted that they couldn't precisely put their finger on this. If we are made in the image of God, and God is as mysterious as we say, then it stands to reason that we also are beyond being fully understandable (for a somewhat more philosophical version of this, see St. Gregory of Nyssa's On the Making of Man, 11). However, if someone put a gun to my head and asked me to sum things up in one statement, it'd probably be something along the lines of: a person is an animal with the ability to be deified.

Animality might not be proper to persons from a fundamental ontology.

Certainly it is not from a traditional Christian viewpoint.

After all two persons of the Trinity certainly are outside of the animal kingdom no matter how anyone cuts it.

Then you have the matter of the noetic beings. Are they persons?

You can check out the rest of the thread.

Start a thread strictly about the advent of death before the fall, but I think animality and whether persons are radically animal becomes a problem along the way.


I really doubt that I could hold my own in such a conversation. I'm not sure that my brain works quite so philosophically, if that's even the best word to describe it. I would find a conversation on animality as it relates to us very interesting, but I have no idea what to even begin to say on the topic myself. That said, I agree that animality would absolutely become a problem along the way, and rather quickly at that. Without even fleshing out my initial thoughts on death before the fall, I can tell you that the topic of animality becomes immediately an issue.
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« Reply #4210 on: July 18, 2012, 12:56:49 AM »

Ok I think you said it earlier but the conception of death before the Fall is problematic.
If you allegorize the Garden of Eden to mean "the pre-lapsarian world", perhaps. But that is an allegorical statement that many disagree with.

The Garden of Eden is not an allegory. It is a myth. Whether allegory is proper to myth is another question.

This is where knowing your genre is helpful.

But this is old news and boring. Anyone who tries to allegorize it to fit science or simply to take it as science it just missing the point completely and uninteresting.

But, Norm, when the Church says something is allegorical it does not mean we are trying to fit it to science. Allegory is trying to fit the details of what may or may not be literal history to a Truth of the Faith.

Using the early Christian Quadriga method of Scriptural interpretation there are literal, allegorical, tropological and anagogical meanings co-existing and complementing one another in many verses of Scripture without cancelling each other out.

Knowing our genres is helpful but we must know those genres in their original context rather than defining the genres of ancient texts with modern definitions.

Is the creation account of Genesis literal or allegorical? The answer is, "Yes."

David, trust me, I simplify here as not to waste my energy on pointless sophistication. Really, you ain't saying nothing interesting or productive here. You have your "tradition".

Enjoy it.

But don't assume that those who find your approach to be tiresome and well trod and lacking to be ignorant.

Your condescension is, as always, amusing.
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« Reply #4211 on: July 18, 2012, 12:57:04 AM »

"Students should be able, with a clear conscience, to sign the AiG Statement of Faith, which upholds the belief in the creation of the universe in six, twenty-four-hour days about 6,000 years ago by the Creator God as revealed in the Bible."

That's one of the silliest things I have ever read.

Every Orthodox Christian worth his salt and who follows the Septuagint knows that the REAL Etos Kosmou is closer to like 7521 Anno Mundi. Well, everyone except Blessed Augustine who, although he sparred with Blessed Jerome over his own preference for the LXX did express more trust in the Hebrew chronology in the City of God. But I digress....

Nice!

No don't digress. That is post awesomeness! Click around that site. And envy my proximity to the place!
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« Reply #4212 on: July 18, 2012, 01:00:20 AM »

Ok I think you said it earlier but the conception of death before the Fall is problematic.
If you allegorize the Garden of Eden to mean "the pre-lapsarian world", perhaps. But that is an allegorical statement that many disagree with.

The Garden of Eden is not an allegory. It is a myth. Whether allegory is proper to myth is another question.

This is where knowing your genre is helpful.

But this is old news and boring. Anyone who tries to allegorize it to fit science or simply to take it as science it just missing the point completely and uninteresting.

But, Norm, when the Church says something is allegorical it does not mean we are trying to fit it to science. Allegory is trying to fit the details of what may or may not be literal history to a Truth of the Faith.

Using the early Christian Quadriga method of Scriptural interpretation there are literal, allegorical, tropological and anagogical meanings co-existing and complementing one another in many verses of Scripture without cancelling each other out.

Knowing our genres is helpful but we must know those genres in their original context rather than defining the genres of ancient texts with modern definitions.

Is the creation account of Genesis literal or allegorical? The answer is, "Yes."

David, trust me, I simplify here as not to waste my energy on pointless sophistication. Really, you ain't saying nothing interesting or productive here. You have your "tradition".

Enjoy it.

But don't assume that those who find your approach to be tiresome and well trod and lacking to be ignorant.

Your condescension is, as always, amusing.

Why does condescension get such a bad wrap? It's what Christ did.

Sorry if that your lecture was not needed. I'll be more humble next time and thank you for it.
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« Reply #4213 on: July 18, 2012, 01:00:48 AM »

"Students should be able, with a clear conscience, to sign the AiG Statement of Faith, which upholds the belief in the creation of the universe in six, twenty-four-hour days about 6,000 years ago by the Creator God as revealed in the Bible."

That's one of the silliest things I have ever read.

Every Orthodox Christian worth his salt and who follows the Septuagint knows that the REAL Etos Kosmou is closer to like 7521 Anno Mundi. Well, everyone except Blessed Augustine who, although he sparred with Blessed Jerome over his own preference for the LXX did express more trust in the Hebrew chronology in the City of God. But I digress....

Nice!

No don't digress. That is post awesomeness! Click around that site. And envy my proximity to the place!

Cute, Norm, put on your garanimals, eat your cookies, and goodnight :-)
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« Reply #4214 on: July 18, 2012, 01:02:05 AM »

Gabriel, for a new look at Evolution I suggest you go visit one of the Creationist 'museums'  *** Shudders**

No one will go with me. I've been dying to go. Well some people want to drag me, I work with people who gave thousands to the place. Everyone else thinks I just want to go and laugh for a few hours.

They are correct but only afterward.

I sincerely want to see the place in action and take in the all the insight. Their "science fair" guidelines were something of genius. Probably the most sophisticated development of what should pass for a science project, until the proof-text caveats. I wonder if they are still posted . . .

I have to see that place some day.

hehehe, that would be a really fun place to go to, although I have not been to one either, there was a promotional video that I saw, and it was  more than enough for me to know about the 'scientific' nature of the place, however its outrageous and  fun,so I would love to see the place too. one baptist was raving about it to me and  It was a torture by itself not to cry out ' are you kidding me!' as I have learnt a long time ago that you do not start an argument with a baptist. lol anyway its one of those places I think would be fun to see as well. Grin
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« Reply #4215 on: July 18, 2012, 01:05:13 AM »

Gabriel, for a new look at Evolution I suggest you go visit one of the Creationist 'museums'  *** Shudders**

No one will go with me. I've been dying to go. Well some people want to drag me, I work with people who gave thousands to the place. Everyone else thinks I just want to go and laugh for a few hours.

They are correct but only afterward.

I sincerely want to see the place in action and take in the all the insight. Their "science fair" guidelines were something of genius. Probably the most sophisticated development of what should pass for a science project, until the proof-text caveats. I wonder if they are still posted . . .

I have to see that place some day.

hehehe, that would be a really fun place to go to, although I have not been to one either, there was a promotional video that I saw, and it was  more than enough for me to know about the 'scientific' nature of the place, however its outrageous and  fun,so I would love to see the place too. one baptist was raving about it to me and  It was a torture by itself not to cry out ' are you kidding me!' as I have learnt a long time ago that you do not start an argument with a baptist. lol anyway its one of those places I think would be fun to see as well. Grin

I always say, only three countries on the planet have creation museums:

Billybangeroo, Australia
KY, USA
and
Texas

And evidently I am pretty close to what the experts consider the best.
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« Reply #4216 on: July 18, 2012, 01:08:01 AM »

"Students should be able, with a clear conscience, to sign the AiG Statement of Faith, which upholds the belief in the creation of the universe in six, twenty-four-hour days about 6,000 years ago by the Creator God as revealed in the Bible."

That's one of the silliest things I have ever read.

Every Orthodox Christian worth his salt and who follows the Septuagint knows that the REAL Etos Kosmou is closer to like 7521 Anno Mundi. Well, everyone except Blessed Augustine who, although he sparred with Blessed Jerome over his own preference for the LXX did express more trust in the Hebrew chronology in the City of God. But I digress....

Nice!

No don't digress. That is post awesomeness! Click around that site. And envy my proximity to the place!

Cute, Norm, put on your garanimals, eat your cookies, and goodnight :-)


Garanimals!

Nice!

See, if you keep posting like this, I might have take back a bit of my off handedness.

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« Reply #4217 on: July 18, 2012, 01:09:02 AM »

^The youtube vids of the atheists going to the creationist museum en masse was somewhat of a let down.
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« Reply #4218 on: July 18, 2012, 01:09:54 AM »

I didn't realize it was so close to me, either.
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« Reply #4219 on: July 18, 2012, 01:11:12 AM »

So orthornorm are you saying that if we evolved from apes we run into the problem of being created in the image and likeness of God?

No one but Creationists believe we evolved from apes. Evolutionary biology contends that humans and apes share a common ancestor.

None of this matters really. The worst characterization of "evolution" by the most uninformed creationist is just as problematic for Christian anthropology as the most refined statement by someone working within evolutionary biology.

Arguing over "scientific trivialities" takes away from the larger discussion and exposes a similar ideology shared by both groups: the triumph of mathematical-physical-organizational empiricism as the operative way of discussing the question.

The primary question raised against Christian anthropology by evolution by anyone's understanding is primarily the advent of death before the fall. (The question of animality is a secondary one and one which when I raised in a most simple fashion here, fell to silence, which is why I don't find putting much energy into these discussions is very productive.)

Christian theology is touched by the question, while thinking proper (philosophy) approaches the questions of origins in a more primordial, radical manner which always precedes such organizational projects like the mathematical physical sciences.


That would definitely make for an interesting discussion.

I've had the pleasure of having discussed this seriously with Priests and Orthodox thinkers concerned about it.

Frankly I am more interested in the second question concerning animality, especially as my body continues to breakdown in wonderfully new ways.

Posts within the thread that touched on the issue:

The real answer to this would probably take a fairly large tome to explain. Actually, strike that, from what I've read, Christians throughout the centuries admitted that they couldn't precisely put their finger on this. If we are made in the image of God, and God is as mysterious as we say, then it stands to reason that we also are beyond being fully understandable (for a somewhat more philosophical version of this, see St. Gregory of Nyssa's On the Making of Man, 11). However, if someone put a gun to my head and asked me to sum things up in one statement, it'd probably be something along the lines of: a person is an animal with the ability to be deified.

Animality might not be proper to persons from a fundamental ontology.

Certainly it is not from a traditional Christian viewpoint.

After all two persons of the Trinity certainly are outside of the animal kingdom no matter how anyone cuts it.

Then you have the matter of the noetic beings. Are they persons?

You can check out the rest of the thread.

Start a thread strictly about the advent of death before the fall, but I think animality and whether persons are radically animal becomes a problem along the way.


I really doubt that I could hold my own in such a conversation. I'm not sure that my brain works quite so philosophically, if that's even the best word to describe it. I would find a conversation on animality as it relates to us very interesting, but I have no idea what to even begin to say on the topic myself. That said, I agree that animality would absolutely become a problem along the way, and rather quickly at that. Without even fleshing out my initial thoughts on death before the fall, I can tell you that the topic of animality becomes immediately an issue.

I am not clear at all on the matter. It is clear to me that the tradition, Orthodox or otherwise, isn't either.

Oh well.
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« Reply #4220 on: July 18, 2012, 01:13:22 AM »

"Students should be able, with a clear conscience, to sign the AiG Statement of Faith, which upholds the belief in the creation of the universe in six, twenty-four-hour days about 6,000 years ago by the Creator God as revealed in the Bible."

That's one of the silliest things I have ever read.

Every Orthodox Christian worth his salt and who follows the Septuagint knows that the REAL Etos Kosmou is closer to like 7521 Anno Mundi. Well, everyone except Blessed Augustine who, although he sparred with Blessed Jerome over his own preference for the LXX did express more trust in the Hebrew chronology in the City of God. But I digress....

Nice!

No don't digress. That is post awesomeness! Click around that site. And envy my proximity to the place!

Cute, Norm, put on your garanimals, eat your cookies, and goodnight :-)


Garanimals!

Nice!

See, if you keep posting like this, I might have take back a bit of my off handedness.



Dude, you're gonna post whatever you want to post because you hold those who follow the older understanding of Creation in disdain. If you can't take any blow back on being opinionated don't post.
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« Reply #4221 on: July 18, 2012, 01:14:24 AM »

^The youtube vids of the atheists going to the creationist museum en masse was somewhat of a let down.

Yeah, I have the snickering crowd who wants to go. Which would be stupid and boring.

Or true believers with backstage passes for giving the place upwards of $10k. Also stupid and boring.

Or people who rightfully are concerned I might lose my mind in such a land of absurdity.

A kindred spirit, I do lack!

I think I might have found the perfect companion. Now it is a matter of when. I have to see the kids outside playing with dinosaurs and Adam and Eve.
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« Reply #4222 on: July 18, 2012, 01:15:25 AM »

"Students should be able, with a clear conscience, to sign the AiG Statement of Faith, which upholds the belief in the creation of the universe in six, twenty-four-hour days about 6,000 years ago by the Creator God as revealed in the Bible."

That's one of the silliest things I have ever read.

Every Orthodox Christian worth his salt and who follows the Septuagint knows that the REAL Etos Kosmou is closer to like 7521 Anno Mundi. Well, everyone except Blessed Augustine who, although he sparred with Blessed Jerome over his own preference for the LXX did express more trust in the Hebrew chronology in the City of God. But I digress....

Nice!

No don't digress. That is post awesomeness! Click around that site. And envy my proximity to the place!

Cute, Norm, put on your garanimals, eat your cookies, and goodnight :-)


Garanimals!

Nice!

See, if you keep posting like this, I might have take back a bit of my off handedness.



Dude, you're gonna post whatever you want to post because you hold those who follow the older understanding of Creation in disdain. If you can't take any blow back on being opinionated don't post.

You really don't get the fact, I actually enjoy the posts I am pointing out of yours?

Like srsly.

EDIT: It is called a healthy sense of humor and self deprecation.
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« Reply #4223 on: July 18, 2012, 01:17:17 AM »

John Scalzi wrote a (IMO) humorous review of the Creation Museum. I'll forewarn those who may be bothered by it that it is loaded with snark and some profanity:

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2007/11/12/your-creation-museum-report/
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« Reply #4224 on: July 18, 2012, 01:19:31 AM »

"Students should be able, with a clear conscience, to sign the AiG Statement of Faith, which upholds the belief in the creation of the universe in six, twenty-four-hour days about 6,000 years ago by the Creator God as revealed in the Bible."

That's one of the silliest things I have ever read.

Every Orthodox Christian worth his salt and who follows the Septuagint knows that the REAL Etos Kosmou is closer to like 7521 Anno Mundi. Well, everyone except Blessed Augustine who, although he sparred with Blessed Jerome over his own preference for the LXX did express more trust in the Hebrew chronology in the City of God. But I digress....

Nice!

No don't digress. That is post awesomeness! Click around that site. And envy my proximity to the place!

Cute, Norm, put on your garanimals, eat your cookies, and goodnight :-)


Garanimals!

Nice!

See, if you keep posting like this, I might have take back a bit of my off handedness.



Dude, you're gonna post whatever you want to post because you hold those who follow the older understanding of Creation in disdain. If you can't take any blow back on being opinionated don't post.

You really don't get the fact, I actually enjoy the posts I am pointing out of yours?

Like srsly.

EDIT: It is called a healthy sense of humor and self deprecation.

SELF-deprecation? To quote our shoulda-been Father among the saints Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
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« Reply #4225 on: July 18, 2012, 01:20:02 AM »

Dude, you're gonna post whatever you want to post because you hold those who follow the older understanding of Creation in disdain. If you can't take any blow back on being opinionated don't post.

Now seriously to your point (when I write NICE! it is a COMPLIMENT, srsly, you need to read more of my posts), you are correct.

That is why I explicitly said it would be great to have people who are out to lunch on the issue (like you) stay out of a conversation about the real problems people who are reasonable must actually deal with if they affirm evolution.

I don't mince words.

I already said this.

And I love your posts about the timeline and garanimals. I am crazy like that.

Sense of humor > just about anything else.

So lighten up.
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« Reply #4226 on: July 18, 2012, 01:21:01 AM »

"Students should be able, with a clear conscience, to sign the AiG Statement of Faith, which upholds the belief in the creation of the universe in six, twenty-four-hour days about 6,000 years ago by the Creator God as revealed in the Bible."

That's one of the silliest things I have ever read.

Every Orthodox Christian worth his salt and who follows the Septuagint knows that the REAL Etos Kosmou is closer to like 7521 Anno Mundi. Well, everyone except Blessed Augustine who, although he sparred with Blessed Jerome over his own preference for the LXX did express more trust in the Hebrew chronology in the City of God. But I digress....

Nice!

No don't digress. That is post awesomeness! Click around that site. And envy my proximity to the place!

Cute, Norm, put on your garanimals, eat your cookies, and goodnight :-)


Garanimals!

Nice!

See, if you keep posting like this, I might have take back a bit of my off handedness.



Dude, you're gonna post whatever you want to post because you hold those who follow the older understanding of Creation in disdain. If you can't take any blow back on being opinionated don't post.

You really don't get the fact, I actually enjoy the posts I am pointing out of yours?

Like srsly.

EDIT: It is called a healthy sense of humor and self deprecation.

SELF-deprecation? To quote our shoulda-been Father among the saints Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Wow. You can't take a compliment or an insult well. Oh well.

Won't stop me from enjoying your clever rejoinders when they happen.
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« Reply #4227 on: July 18, 2012, 01:22:52 AM »

"Students should be able, with a clear conscience, to sign the AiG Statement of Faith, which upholds the belief in the creation of the universe in six, twenty-four-hour days about 6,000 years ago by the Creator God as revealed in the Bible."

That's one of the silliest things I have ever read.

Every Orthodox Christian worth his salt and who follows the Septuagint knows that the REAL Etos Kosmou is closer to like 7521 Anno Mundi. Well, everyone except Blessed Augustine who, although he sparred with Blessed Jerome over his own preference for the LXX did express more trust in the Hebrew chronology in the City of God. But I digress....

PotM!
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« Reply #4228 on: July 18, 2012, 01:25:38 AM »

"Students should be able, with a clear conscience, to sign the AiG Statement of Faith, which upholds the belief in the creation of the universe in six, twenty-four-hour days about 6,000 years ago by the Creator God as revealed in the Bible."

That's one of the silliest things I have ever read.

Every Orthodox Christian worth his salt and who follows the Septuagint knows that the REAL Etos Kosmou is closer to like 7521 Anno Mundi. Well, everyone except Blessed Augustine who, although he sparred with Blessed Jerome over his own preference for the LXX did express more trust in the Hebrew chronology in the City of God. But I digress....

PotM!

Thank you, brother Orthonorm, for the nomination and for proving the truth of Proverbs 17:17.
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« Reply #4229 on: July 18, 2012, 01:28:16 AM »

I like to think you are using this translation:

Quote
Friends love through all kinds of weather,
   and families stick together in all kinds of trouble.
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