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Author Topic: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy  (Read 326439 times) Average Rating: 0
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laconicstudent
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« Reply #4140 on: May 15, 2012, 04:44:45 PM »

I watched all his stuff (letcures/debates) years ago on Google video. Literally all of it. It was great fun.

Again, you're just trolling. Have to be.

Nope.  I do not believe in evolution.
Well you don't to buy into the philosophy of social darwinism even if you accept evolution. So why don't you believe in evolution again?

Any Christian or Jew that believes in evolution, is not really a Christian or Jew.

Did my bishop repose and were you somehow consecrated without my noticing? You have no authority to be making these sort of proclamations.
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« Reply #4141 on: May 15, 2012, 04:50:30 PM »

I watched all his stuff (letcures/debates) years ago on Google video. Literally all of it. It was great fun.

Again, you're just trolling. Have to be.

Nope.  I do not believe in evolution.
Well you don't to buy into the philosophy of social darwinism even if you accept evolution. So why don't you believe in evolution again?

Any Christian or Jew that believes in evolution, is not really a Christian or Jew.

Did my bishop repose and were you somehow consecrated without my noticing? You have no authority to be making these sort of proclamations.
Oh laconicstudent, do you not know the power of oc.net posters? Everything said here is binding in the real world....


PP
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« Reply #4142 on: May 15, 2012, 04:51:34 PM »

Keep in mind...  Evolution is a THEORY.

So many claim it to be some kind of absolute fact, or speak of it as such.

Um, because it is. This would appear to be the eternal misconception that scientific theories aren't well established.

In other news, the concept that germs cause disease is a theory. Gravity is a theory. Valence bonds are theories. Cells are a theory.

If cells are a theory and humans (amongst other created things) are composed of cells, does that mean that humans are a theory, too  Shocked Grin?
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« Reply #4143 on: May 15, 2012, 04:52:35 PM »

I watched all his stuff (letcures/debates) years ago on Google video. Literally all of it. It was great fun.

Again, you're just trolling. Have to be.

Nope.  I do not believe in evolution.
Well you don't to buy into the philosophy of social darwinism even if you accept evolution. So why don't you believe in evolution again?

Any Christian or Jew that believes in evolution, is not really a Christian or Jew.

Did my bishop repose and were you somehow consecrated without my noticing? You have no authority to be making these sort of proclamations.
Oh laconicstudent, do you not know the power of oc.net posters? Everything said here is binding in the real world....


PP

Finally!!  Someone who understands!!!  Cheesy Cheesy
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laconicstudent
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« Reply #4144 on: May 15, 2012, 04:52:57 PM »

I watched all his stuff (letcures/debates) years ago on Google video. Literally all of it. It was great fun.

Again, you're just trolling. Have to be.

Nope.  I do not believe in evolution.
Well you don't to buy into the philosophy of social darwinism even if you accept evolution. So why don't you believe in evolution again?

Any Christian or Jew that believes in evolution, is not really a Christian or Jew.

Did my bishop repose and were you somehow consecrated without my noticing? You have no authority to be making these sort of proclamations.
Oh laconicstudent, do you not know the power of oc.net posters? Everything said here is binding in the real world....


PP

Oh, I'm sure some posters here desperately wish that were true.  Cheesy
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laconicstudent
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« Reply #4145 on: May 15, 2012, 04:54:01 PM »

Keep in mind...  Evolution is a THEORY.

So many claim it to be some kind of absolute fact, or speak of it as such.

Um, because it is. This would appear to be the eternal misconception that scientific theories aren't well established.

In other news, the concept that germs cause disease is a theory. Gravity is a theory. Valence bonds are theories. Cells are a theory.

If cells are a theory and humans (amongst other created things) are composed of cells, does that mean that humans are a theory, too  Shocked Grin?

No... That they are composed of cells is a theory, that is why it is called "cell theory".
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« Reply #4146 on: May 15, 2012, 04:54:51 PM »

I watched all his stuff (letcures/debates) years ago on Google video. Literally all of it. It was great fun.

Again, you're just trolling. Have to be.

Nope.  I do not believe in evolution.
Well you don't to buy into the philosophy of social darwinism even if you accept evolution. So why don't you believe in evolution again?

Any Christian or Jew that believes in evolution, is not really a Christian or Jew.

Did my bishop repose and were you somehow consecrated without my noticing? You have no authority to be making these sort of proclamations.
Oh laconicstudent, do you not know the power of oc.net posters? Everything said here is binding in the real world....


PP

Oh, I'm sure some posters here desperately wish that were true.  Cheesy

And someone who doesn't understand  Sad Sad.






 Grin
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"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #4147 on: May 15, 2012, 04:56:58 PM »

Keep in mind...  Evolution is a THEORY.

So many claim it to be some kind of absolute fact, or speak of it as such.

Yes, and I am sitting in a high-rise building that was built using stress theory. My firm maintains its financial accounts using number theory. While commuting, I listen to songs subject to music theory.

Amazing that all of these things are imaginary.

Actually it was built using steel beams and construction materials Smiley   Before steel framing, buildings were NOT high rise.  (sorry digressed)

Just because some theories appear to work, doesn't mean other theories are valid.
Number theory, there are so many paradoxes in our math system its ridiculous.

Number line for instance.

0---------------1----------------2------------------3----------->

0--------------------------------.5------------------------------1>
0--------------------------------.25-----------------------------.5>
0--------------------------------.125---------------------------.25>
0--------------------------------.0625--------------------------.125>

Or in layman's terms - you shoot an arrow at a target.  By math in order to get to the target, it must get halfway there first.   Before it can get to halfway, it must get halfway to halfway first.  Then halfway to halfway to halfway.  Then halfway to halfway to halfway to halfway.

By math & logic, the arrow can't ever hit the target because infinite halves exist between all.

I can see that you never studied calculus. Good thing you used laymen's terms so I could understand! (that's ok - Zeno did not have the benefit of calculus, either)

(that was easy)
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« Reply #4148 on: May 15, 2012, 04:58:46 PM »

Keep in mind...  Evolution is a THEORY.

So many claim it to be some kind of absolute fact, or speak of it as such.

Um, because it is. This would appear to be the eternal misconception that scientific theories aren't well established.

In other news, the concept that germs cause disease is a theory. Gravity is a theory. Valence bonds are theories. Cells are a theory.

If cells are a theory and humans (amongst other created things) are composed of cells, does that mean that humans are a theory, too  Shocked Grin?

No... That they are composed of cells is a theory, that is why it is called "cell theory".

So...that we are composed of cells is still conjectural and subject to further experimentation?








You don't need to answer that, laconicstudent.  I'm just yanking your chain  Grin.
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laconicstudent
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« Reply #4149 on: May 15, 2012, 05:01:21 PM »

Keep in mind...  Evolution is a THEORY.

So many claim it to be some kind of absolute fact, or speak of it as such.

Um, because it is. This would appear to be the eternal misconception that scientific theories aren't well established.

In other news, the concept that germs cause disease is a theory. Gravity is a theory. Valence bonds are theories. Cells are a theory.

If cells are a theory and humans (amongst other created things) are composed of cells, does that mean that humans are a theory, too  Shocked Grin?

No... That they are composed of cells is a theory, that is why it is called "cell theory".

So...that we are composed of cells is still conjectural and subject to further experimentation?








You don't need to answer that, laconicstudent.  I'm just yanking your chain  Grin.

Goody.
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« Reply #4150 on: May 15, 2012, 06:22:23 PM »

Keep in mind...  Evolution is a THEORY.

So many claim it to be some kind of absolute fact, or speak of it as such.

Um, because it is. This would appear to be the eternal misconception that scientific theories aren't well established.

In other news, the concept that germs cause disease is a theory. Gravity is a theory. Valence bonds are theories. Cells are a theory.

those are all testable and verifiable in the here and now. the theory of common descent and evolution have no such possibility. the past can only be interpreted through whichever lens we choose to see it.
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laconicstudent
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« Reply #4151 on: May 15, 2012, 06:26:47 PM »

Keep in mind...  Evolution is a THEORY.

So many claim it to be some kind of absolute fact, or speak of it as such.

Um, because it is. This would appear to be the eternal misconception that scientific theories aren't well established.

In other news, the concept that germs cause disease is a theory. Gravity is a theory. Valence bonds are theories. Cells are a theory.

those are all testable and verifiable in the here and now. the theory of common descent and evolution have no such possibility. the past can only be interpreted through whichever lens we choose to see it.

Sure it does: PCR, ERVs, fossils, the evolution we see happening in history and currently, mitochondria, etc.
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« Reply #4152 on: May 15, 2012, 06:46:41 PM »

Keep in mind...  Evolution is a THEORY.

So many claim it to be some kind of absolute fact, or speak of it as such.

Um, because it is. This would appear to be the eternal misconception that scientific theories aren't well established.

In other news, the concept that germs cause disease is a theory. Gravity is a theory. Valence bonds are theories. Cells are a theory.

those are all testable and verifiable in the here and now. the theory of common descent and evolution have no such possibility. the past can only be interpreted through whichever lens we choose to see it.

Sure it does: PCR, ERVs,....
Don't forget the CSIs: CSI evolved in 2000, giving rise to a descendant species, CSI: Miami in 2002. Both species were able to co-exist, since CSI's habitat was Las Vegas. In 2004, a population of CSI: Miami located in NYC evolved into a separate species, CSI: NY. Unfortunately, CSI: Miami soon became endangered, and the last one died in 2012.
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« Reply #4153 on: May 16, 2012, 09:19:15 AM »

I watched all his stuff (letcures/debates) years ago on Google video. Literally all of it. It was great fun.

Again, you're just trolling. Have to be.

Nope.  I do not believe in evolution.
Well you don't to buy into the philosophy of social darwinism even if you accept evolution. So why don't you believe in evolution again?

Any Christian or Jew that believes in evolution, is not really a Christian or Jew.
Nice of you to think so. Now who are you again?
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« Reply #4154 on: May 16, 2012, 09:22:18 AM »

Keep in mind...  Evolution is a THEORY.

So many claim it to be some kind of absolute fact, or speak of it as such.

Um, because it is. This would appear to be the eternal misconception that scientific theories aren't well established.

In other news, the concept that germs cause disease is a theory. Gravity is a theory. Valence bonds are theories. Cells are a theory.

If cells are a theory and humans (amongst other created things) are composed of cells, does that mean that humans are a theory, too  Shocked Grin?
Theoretically speaking, yes. Grin
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« Reply #4155 on: May 16, 2012, 09:36:43 AM »

Keep in mind...  Evolution is a THEORY.

So many claim it to be some kind of absolute fact, or speak of it as such.

Um, because it is. This would appear to be the eternal misconception that scientific theories aren't well established.

In other news, the concept that germs cause disease is a theory. Gravity is a theory. Valence bonds are theories. Cells are a theory.

If cells are a theory and humans (amongst other created things) are composed of cells, does that mean that humans are a theory, too  Shocked Grin?
Theoretically speaking, yes. Grin

So, how do we now test and verify *that*?  Grin
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« Reply #4156 on: May 17, 2012, 03:12:53 PM »

Bummer: Old Time Prophecies of Resurrection were based on theories of Spontaneous Generation?

Wikipedia's article on Spontaneous Generation says:
Quote
Spontaneous generation or equivocal generation is an obsolete principle regarding the origin of life from inanimate matter, which held that this process was a commonplace and everyday occurrence, as distinguished from univocal generation, or reproduction from parent(s). The hypothesis was synthesized by Aristotle,[1] who compiled and expanded the work of prior natural philosophers and the various ancient explanations of the appearance of organisms; it held sway for two millennia. It is generally accepted to have been ultimately disproven in the 19th century by the experiments of Louis Pasteur, expanding upon the experiments of other scientists before him (such as Francesco Redi who had performed similar experiments in the 17th century). Ultimately, it was succeeded by germ theory and cell theory.
 
The disproof of ongoing spontaneous generation is no longer controversial, now that the life cycles of various life forms have been well documented. However, the question of abiogenesis, how living things originally arose from non-living material, remains relevant today.

Genesis 2:7 says about Adam's creation:
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Similarly, Ezekiel 37 says about Israel's resurrection:
Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.
Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.


So in both cases there is an image of life created out of some dust state.
However, unfortunately, alot of websites say Ezekiel 37 is just about Israel's political restoration.
One such website appears to be: http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/453/was-ezekiel-37-understood-as-a-prophesy-of-a-literal-resurrection

Admittedly, the website isn't really persuasive, it just makes some quotes from the Talmud on the topic of Ezekiel 37, like "It was truth; it was a parable."

In any case the Talmud explains its proof of the resurrection as follows (from the same website):
Quote
There was a Min[heretic] who said to R. Ami: You say that the dead will be restored. Does not the corpse become dust? How, then, can dust be restored? And he told him: I will give you a parable showing to what this thing is similar. A human king said to his servants: Go and build me a palace in such a place, where there is no earth and no water. And they did so: and after it collapsed he commanded the same to build it for him in a place where there was earth and water. And they answered: We cannot do so. And he became angry, saying: When you could build it in such a place where there was no earth and no water, ought you not to be able to build it where they are?

And if you don't believe it, go into a valley and see a mouse, which is half flesh and half earth (it being believed that there is a species of mice developed from earth), and to-morrow it multiplies and becomes all flesh. And should you say that it takes much time till it becomes so, go up into the mountain, and see that to-day you cannot find even one helzun, and on the morrow, after rain, you will find the mountains full of them.
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« Reply #4157 on: May 18, 2012, 10:41:26 AM »

Whoever denies the whole of Evolution is like those who believed that the earth was flat or like those who believed in geocentrism and denied heliocentrism.
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« Reply #4158 on: May 18, 2012, 12:00:17 PM »

Whoever denies the whole of Evolution is like those who believed that the earth was flat or like those who believed in geocentrism and denied heliocentrism.

What do you mean by "the whole of Evolution"?
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« Reply #4159 on: May 18, 2012, 12:46:58 PM »

Whoever denies the whole of Evolution is like those who believed that the earth was flat or like those who believed in geocentrism and denied heliocentrism.

What do you mean by "the whole of Evolution"?

Evolution is a complexity of theories...
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« Reply #4160 on: May 18, 2012, 12:53:41 PM »

Whoever denies the whole of Evolution is like those who believed that the earth was flat or like those who believed in geocentrism and denied heliocentrism.

What do you mean by "the whole of Evolution"?

Evolution is a complexity of theories...

Okay.  I thought you might have meant something different, but didn't know just what.  Hence, my question.

I'm no scientist, not even close, and forgive me if this has been asked/discussed previously, but...does that complexity of theories include the theory that one species can "evolve" into a different species?
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« Reply #4161 on: May 18, 2012, 01:07:57 PM »

Whoever denies the whole of Evolution is like those who believed that the earth was flat or like those who believed in geocentrism and denied heliocentrism.

What do you mean by "the whole of Evolution"?

Evolution is a complexity of theories...

Okay.  I thought you might have meant something different, but didn't know just what.  Hence, my question.

I'm no scientist, not even close, and forgive me if this has been asked/discussed previously, but...does that complexity of theories include the theory that one species can "evolve" into a different species?

Quote
Heredity
Further information: Introduction to genetics, Genetics, Heredity, and Norms of reaction
DNA structure. Bases are in the centre, surrounded by phosphate–sugar chains in a double helix.

Evolution in organisms occurs through changes in heritable traits – particular characteristics of an organism. In humans, for example, eye colour is an inherited characteristic and an individual might inherit the "brown-eye trait" from one of their parents.[48] Inherited traits are controlled by genes and the complete set of genes within an organism's genome is called its genotype.[49]

The complete set of observable traits that make up the structure and behaviour of an organism is called its phenotype. These traits come from the interaction of its genotype with the environment.[50] As a result, many aspects of an organism's phenotype are not inherited. For example, suntanned skin comes from the interaction between a person's genotype and sunlight; thus, suntans are not passed on to people's children. However, some people tan more easily than others, due to differences in their genotype; a striking example are people with the inherited trait of albinism, who do not tan at all and are very sensitive to sunburn.[51]

Heritable traits are known to be passed from one generation to the next via DNA, a molecule that encodes genetic information.[49] DNA is a long polymer composed of four types of bases. The sequence of bases along a particular DNA molecule specify the genetic information, in a manner similar to a sequence of letters spelling out a sentence. Before a cell divides, the DNA is copied, so that each of the resulting two cells will inherit the DNA sequence. Portions of a DNA molecule that specify a single functional unit are called genes; different genes have different sequences of bases. Within cells, the long strands of DNA form condensed structures called chromosomes. The specific location of a DNA sequence within a chromosome is known as a locus. If the DNA sequence at a locus varies between individuals, the different forms of this sequence are called alleles. DNA sequences can change through mutations, producing new alleles. If a mutation occurs within a gene, the new allele may affect the trait that the gene controls, altering the phenotype of the organism.[52] However, while this simple correspondence between an allele and a trait works in some cases, most traits are more complex and are controlled by multiple interacting genes.[53][54]

Recent findings have confirmed important examples of heritable changes that cannot be explained by changes to the sequence of nucleotides in the DNA. These phenomena are classed as epigenetic inheritance systems.[55] DNA methylation marking chromatin, self-sustaining metabolic loops, gene silencing by RNA interference and the three dimensional conformation of proteins (such as prions) are areas where epigenetic inheritance systems have been discovered at the organismic level.[56][57] Developmental biologists suggest that complex interactions in genetic networks and communication among cells can lead to heritable variations that may underlay some of the mechanics in developmental plasticity and canalization.[58] Heritability may also occur at even larger scales. For example, ecological inheritance through the process of niche construction is defined by the regular and repeated activities of organisms in their environment. This generates a legacy of effects that modify and feed back into the selection regime of subsequent generations. Descendants inherit genes plus environmental characteristics generated by the ecological actions of ancestors.[59] Other examples of heritability in evolution that are not under the direct control of genes include the inheritance of cultural traits and symbiogenesis.[60][61]
Variation
White peppered moth
Black morph in peppered moth evolution
Further information: Genetic diversity and Population genetics

An individual organism's phenotype results from both its genotype and the influence from the environment it has lived in. A substantial part of the variation in phenotypes in a population is caused by the differences between their genotypes.[54] The modern evolutionary synthesis defines evolution as the change over time in this genetic variation. The frequency of one particular allele will become more or less prevalent relative to other forms of that gene. Variation disappears when a new allele reaches the point of fixation — when it either disappears from the population or replaces the ancestral allele entirely.[62]

Natural selection will only cause evolution if there is enough genetic variation in a population. Before the discovery of Mendelian genetics, one common hypothesis was blending inheritance. But with blending inheritance, genetic variance would be rapidly lost, making evolution by natural selection implausible. The Hardy-Weinberg principle provides the solution to how variation is maintained in a population with Mendelian inheritance. The frequencies of alleles (variations in a gene) will remain constant in the absence of selection, mutation, migration and genetic drift.[63]

Variation comes from mutations in genetic material, reshuffling of genes through sexual reproduction and migration between populations (gene flow). Despite the constant introduction of new variation through mutation and gene flow, most of the genome of a species is identical in all individuals of that species.[64] However, even relatively small differences in genotype can lead to dramatic differences in phenotype: for example, chimpanzees and humans differ in only about 5% of their genomes.[65]
Mutation
Further information: Mutation
Duplication of part of a chromosome.

Mutations are changes in the DNA sequence of a cell's genome. When mutations occur, they can either have no effect, alter the product of a gene, or prevent the gene from functioning. Based on studies in the fly Drosophila melanogaster, it has been suggested that if a mutation changes a protein produced by a gene, this will probably be harmful, with about 70% of these mutations having damaging effects, and the remainder being either neutral or weakly beneficial.[66]

Mutations can involve large sections of a chromosome becoming duplicated (usually by genetic recombination), which can introduce extra copies of a gene into a genome.[67] Extra copies of genes are a major source of the raw material needed for new genes to evolve.[68] This is important because most new genes evolve within gene families from pre-existing genes that share common ancestors.[69] For example, the human eye uses four genes to make structures that sense light: three for colour vision and one for night vision; all four are descended from a single ancestral gene.[70]

New genes can be generated from an ancestral gene when a duplicate copy mutates and acquires a new function. This process is easier once a gene has been duplicated because it increases the redundancy of the system; one gene in the pair can acquire a new function while the other copy continues to perform its original function.[71][72] Other types of mutations can even generate entirely new genes from previously noncoding DNA.[73][74]

The generation of new genes can also involve small parts of several genes being duplicated, with these fragments then recombining to form new combinations with new functions.[75][76] When new genes are assembled from shuffling pre-existing parts, domains act as modules with simple independent functions, which can be mixed together to produce new combinations with new and complex functions.[77] For example, polyketide synthases are large enzymes that make antibiotics; they contain up to one hundred independent domains that each catalyze one step in the overall process, like a step in an assembly line.[78]
Sex and recombination
Further information: Sexual reproduction, Genetic recombination, and Evolution of sexual reproduction

In asexual organisms, genes are inherited together, or linked, as they cannot mix with genes of other organisms during reproduction. In contrast, the offspring of sexual organisms contain random mixtures of their parents' chromosomes that are produced through independent assortment. In a related process called homologous recombination, sexual organisms exchange DNA between two matching chromosomes.[79] Recombination and reassortment do not alter allele frequencies, but instead change which alleles are associated with each other, producing offspring with new combinations of alleles.[80] Sex usually increases genetic variation and may increase the rate of evolution.[81][82]
Gene flow
Further information: Gene flow

Gene flow is the exchange of genes between populations and between species.[83] It can therefore be a source of variation that is new to a population or to a species. Gene flow can be caused by the movement of individuals between separate populations of organisms, as might be caused by the movement of mice between inland and coastal populations, or the movement of pollen between heavy metal tolerant and heavy metal sensitive populations of grasses.

Gene transfer between species includes the formation of hybrid organisms and horizontal gene transfer. Horizontal gene transfer is the transfer of genetic material from one organism to another organism that is not its offspring; this is most common among bacteria.[84] In medicine, this contributes to the spread of antibiotic resistance, as when one bacteria acquires resistance genes it can rapidly transfer them to other species.[85] Horizontal transfer of genes from bacteria to eukaryotes such as the yeast Saccharomyces cerevisiae and the adzuki bean beetle Callosobruchus chinensis has occurred.[86][87] An example of larger-scale transfers are the eukaryotic bdelloid rotifers, which have received a range of genes from bacteria, fungi and plants.[88] Viruses can also carry DNA between organisms, allowing transfer of genes even across biological domains.[89]

Large-scale gene transfer has also occurred between the ancestors of eukaryotic cells and bacteria, during the acquisition of chloroplasts and mitochondria. It is possible that eukaryotes themselves originated from horizontal gene transfers between bacteria and archaea.[90]
From a Neo-Darwinian perspective, evolution occurs when there are changes in the frequencies of alleles within a population of interbreeding organisms.[63] For example, the allele for black colour in a population of moths becoming more common. Mechanisms that can lead to changes in allele frequencies include natural selection, genetic drift, genetic hitchhiking, mutation and gene flow.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
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« Reply #4162 on: May 18, 2012, 01:21:21 PM »

Whoever denies the whole of Evolution is like those who believed that the earth was flat or like those who believed in geocentrism and denied heliocentrism.

What do you mean by "the whole of Evolution"?

Evolution is a complexity of theories...

Okay.  I thought you might have meant something different, but didn't know just what.  Hence, my question.

I'm no scientist, not even close, and forgive me if this has been asked/discussed previously, but...does that complexity of theories include the theory that one species can "evolve" into a different species?

Quote
All organisms on Earth are descended from a common ancestor or ancestral gene pool.[171][243] Current species are a stage in the process of evolution, with their diversity the product of a long series of speciation and extinction events.[244] The common descent of organisms was first deduced from four simple facts about organisms: First, they have geographic distributions that cannot be explained by local adaptation. Second, the diversity of life is not a set of completely unique organisms, but organisms that share morphological similarities. Third, vestigial traits with no clear purpose resemble functional ancestral traits and finally, that organisms can be classified using these similarities into a hierarchy of nested groups – similar to a family tree.[245] However, modern research has suggested that, due to horizontal gene transfer, this "tree of life" may be more complicated than a simple branching tree since some genes have spread independently between distantly related species.[246][247]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution#Origin_of_life

yes, through mutations species can change.

I understand that species can mutate and change, but into a totally different species?
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« Reply #4163 on: May 18, 2012, 01:44:04 PM »

Whoever denies the whole of Evolution is like those who believed that the earth was flat or like those who believed in geocentrism and denied heliocentrism.

What do you mean by "the whole of Evolution"?

Evolution is a complexity of theories...

Okay.  I thought you might have meant something different, but didn't know just what.  Hence, my question.

I'm no scientist, not even close, and forgive me if this has been asked/discussed previously, but...does that complexity of theories include the theory that one species can "evolve" into a different species?

Quote
All organisms on Earth are descended from a common ancestor or ancestral gene pool.[171][243] Current species are a stage in the process of evolution, with their diversity the product of a long series of speciation and extinction events.[244] The common descent of organisms was first deduced from four simple facts about organisms: First, they have geographic distributions that cannot be explained by local adaptation. Second, the diversity of life is not a set of completely unique organisms, but organisms that share morphological similarities. Third, vestigial traits with no clear purpose resemble functional ancestral traits and finally, that organisms can be classified using these similarities into a hierarchy of nested groups – similar to a family tree.[245] However, modern research has suggested that, due to horizontal gene transfer, this "tree of life" may be more complicated than a simple branching tree since some genes have spread independently between distantly related species.[246][247]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution#Origin_of_life

yes, through mutations species can change.

I understand that species can mutate and change, but into a totally different species?

Nevertheless mutations and changes are part of the theory of Evolution.. Many mechanism from the theory of Evolution have scientifical verifications.. Things like natural selection, gene flow, sexual recombination and mutation..

According to the theory of Evolution the process of Evolution needs thousands and millions of years... So species become other species in many many years...

Quote
Prokaryotes inhabited the Earth from approximately 3–4 billion years ago.[253][254] No obvious changes in morphology or cellular organisation occurred in these organisms over the next few billion years.[255] The eukaryotic cells emerged between 1.6 – 2.7 billion years ago. The next major change in cell structure came when bacteria were engulfed by eukaryotic cells, in a cooperative association called endosymbiosis.[256][257] The engulfed bacteria and the host cell then underwent co-evolution, with the bacteria evolving into either mitochondria or hydrogenosomes.[258] Another engulfment of cyanobacterial-like organisms led to the formation of chloroplasts in algae and plants.[259]

The history of life was that of the unicellular eukaryotes, prokaryotes and archaea until about 610 million years ago when multicellular organisms began to appear in the oceans in the Ediacaran period.[253][260] The evolution of multicellularity occurred in multiple independent events, in organisms as diverse as sponges, brown algae, cyanobacteria, slime moulds and myxobacteria.[261]

Soon after the emergence of these first multicellular organisms, a remarkable amount of biological diversity appeared over approximately 10 million years, in an event called the Cambrian explosion. Here, the majority of types of modern animals appeared in the fossil record, as well as unique lineages that subsequently became extinct.[262] Various triggers for the Cambrian explosion have been proposed, including the accumulation of oxygen in the atmosphere from photosynthesis.[263]

About 500 million years ago, plants and fungi colonised the land and were soon followed by arthropods and other animals.[264] Insects were particularly successful and even today make up the majority of animal species.[265] Amphibians first appeared around 364 million years ago, followed by early amniotes, then birds around 155 million years ago (both from "reptile"-like lineages), mammals around 129 million years ago, homininae around 10 million years ago and modern humans around 0.25 million years ago.[266][267][268] However, despite the evolution of these large animals, smaller organisms similar to the types that evolved early in this process continue to be highly successful and dominate the Earth, with the majority of both biomass and species being prokaryotes.[149]

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« Reply #4164 on: May 18, 2012, 01:49:13 PM »

Whoever denies the whole of Evolution is like those who believed that the earth was flat or like those who believed in geocentrism and denied heliocentrism.

What do you mean by "the whole of Evolution"?

Evolution is a complexity of theories...

Okay.  I thought you might have meant something different, but didn't know just what.  Hence, my question.

I'm no scientist, not even close, and forgive me if this has been asked/discussed previously, but...does that complexity of theories include the theory that one species can "evolve" into a different species?

Quote
All organisms on Earth are descended from a common ancestor or ancestral gene pool.[171][243] Current species are a stage in the process of evolution, with their diversity the product of a long series of speciation and extinction events.[244] The common descent of organisms was first deduced from four simple facts about organisms: First, they have geographic distributions that cannot be explained by local adaptation. Second, the diversity of life is not a set of completely unique organisms, but organisms that share morphological similarities. Third, vestigial traits with no clear purpose resemble functional ancestral traits and finally, that organisms can be classified using these similarities into a hierarchy of nested groups – similar to a family tree.[245] However, modern research has suggested that, due to horizontal gene transfer, this "tree of life" may be more complicated than a simple branching tree since some genes have spread independently between distantly related species.[246][247]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution#Origin_of_life

yes, through mutations species can change.

I understand that species can mutate and change, but into a totally different species?

Nevertheless mutations and changes are part of the theory of Evolution.. Many mechanism from the theory of Evolution have scientifical verifications.. Things like natural selection, gene flow, sexual recombination and mutation..

According to the theory of Evolution the process of Evolution needs thousands and millions of years... So species become other species in many many years...

Quote
Prokaryotes inhabited the Earth from approximately 3–4 billion years ago.[253][254] No obvious changes in morphology or cellular organisation occurred in these organisms over the next few billion years.[255] The eukaryotic cells emerged between 1.6 – 2.7 billion years ago. The next major change in cell structure came when bacteria were engulfed by eukaryotic cells, in a cooperative association called endosymbiosis.[256][257] The engulfed bacteria and the host cell then underwent co-evolution, with the bacteria evolving into either mitochondria or hydrogenosomes.[258] Another engulfment of cyanobacterial-like organisms led to the formation of chloroplasts in algae and plants.[259]

The history of life was that of the unicellular eukaryotes, prokaryotes and archaea until about 610 million years ago when multicellular organisms began to appear in the oceans in the Ediacaran period.[253][260] The evolution of multicellularity occurred in multiple independent events, in organisms as diverse as sponges, brown algae, cyanobacteria, slime moulds and myxobacteria.[261]

Soon after the emergence of these first multicellular organisms, a remarkable amount of biological diversity appeared over approximately 10 million years, in an event called the Cambrian explosion. Here, the majority of types of modern animals appeared in the fossil record, as well as unique lineages that subsequently became extinct.[262] Various triggers for the Cambrian explosion have been proposed, including the accumulation of oxygen in the atmosphere from photosynthesis.[263]

About 500 million years ago, plants and fungi colonised the land and were soon followed by arthropods and other animals.[264] Insects were particularly successful and even today make up the majority of animal species.[265] Amphibians first appeared around 364 million years ago, followed by early amniotes, then birds around 155 million years ago (both from "reptile"-like lineages), mammals around 129 million years ago, homininae around 10 million years ago and modern humans around 0.25 million years ago.[266][267][268] However, despite the evolution of these large animals, smaller organisms similar to the types that evolved early in this process continue to be highly successful and dominate the Earth, with the majority of both biomass and species being prokaryotes.[149]



Now you've given me a headache  Grin.





Think I need to just leave it at that and go lie down.  Dark room.  Soothing music.   Grin Grin
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« Reply #4165 on: May 18, 2012, 02:27:07 PM »

Whoever denies the whole of Evolution is like those who believed that the earth was flat or like those who believed in geocentrism and denied heliocentrism.

What do you mean by "the whole of Evolution"?

Evolution is a complexity of theories...

Okay.  I thought you might have meant something different, but didn't know just what.  Hence, my question.

I'm no scientist, not even close, and forgive me if this has been asked/discussed previously, but...does that complexity of theories include the theory that one species can "evolve" into a different species?

Quote
All organisms on Earth are descended from a common ancestor or ancestral gene pool.[171][243] Current species are a stage in the process of evolution, with their diversity the product of a long series of speciation and extinction events.[244] The common descent of organisms was first deduced from four simple facts about organisms: First, they have geographic distributions that cannot be explained by local adaptation. Second, the diversity of life is not a set of completely unique organisms, but organisms that share morphological similarities. Third, vestigial traits with no clear purpose resemble functional ancestral traits and finally, that organisms can be classified using these similarities into a hierarchy of nested groups – similar to a family tree.[245] However, modern research has suggested that, due to horizontal gene transfer, this "tree of life" may be more complicated than a simple branching tree since some genes have spread independently between distantly related species.[246][247]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution#Origin_of_life

yes, through mutations species can change.

I understand that species can mutate and change, but into a totally different species?

Nevertheless mutations and changes are part of the theory of Evolution.. Many mechanism from the theory of Evolution have scientifical verifications.. Things like natural selection, gene flow, sexual recombination and mutation..

According to the theory of Evolution the process of Evolution needs thousands and millions of years... So species become other species in many many years...

Quote
Prokaryotes inhabited the Earth from approximately 3–4 billion years ago.[253][254] No obvious changes in morphology or cellular organisation occurred in these organisms over the next few billion years.[255] The eukaryotic cells emerged between 1.6 – 2.7 billion years ago. The next major change in cell structure came when bacteria were engulfed by eukaryotic cells, in a cooperative association called endosymbiosis.[256][257] The engulfed bacteria and the host cell then underwent co-evolution, with the bacteria evolving into either mitochondria or hydrogenosomes.[258] Another engulfment of cyanobacterial-like organisms led to the formation of chloroplasts in algae and plants.[259]

The history of life was that of the unicellular eukaryotes, prokaryotes and archaea until about 610 million years ago when multicellular organisms began to appear in the oceans in the Ediacaran period.[253][260] The evolution of multicellularity occurred in multiple independent events, in organisms as diverse as sponges, brown algae, cyanobacteria, slime moulds and myxobacteria.[261]

Soon after the emergence of these first multicellular organisms, a remarkable amount of biological diversity appeared over approximately 10 million years, in an event called the Cambrian explosion. Here, the majority of types of modern animals appeared in the fossil record, as well as unique lineages that subsequently became extinct.[262] Various triggers for the Cambrian explosion have been proposed, including the accumulation of oxygen in the atmosphere from photosynthesis.[263]

About 500 million years ago, plants and fungi colonised the land and were soon followed by arthropods and other animals.[264] Insects were particularly successful and even today make up the majority of animal species.[265] Amphibians first appeared around 364 million years ago, followed by early amniotes, then birds around 155 million years ago (both from "reptile"-like lineages), mammals around 129 million years ago, homininae around 10 million years ago and modern humans around 0.25 million years ago.[266][267][268] However, despite the evolution of these large animals, smaller organisms similar to the types that evolved early in this process continue to be highly successful and dominate the Earth, with the majority of both biomass and species being prokaryotes.[149]



Now you've given me a headache  Grin.





Think I need to just leave it at that and go lie down.  Dark room.  Soothing music.   Grin Grin

Now i`m not the only one having an headache.. Mine is probably caused from a though day at work..
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« Reply #4166 on: May 20, 2012, 01:55:47 PM »

Genesis 1 indicates an origin of humanity compatible with evolutionary theory. Genesis 2 discusses the life of the first priest, Adam.
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« Reply #4167 on: May 21, 2012, 12:04:36 PM »

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/series/darwin_and_christianityexcellent excellent.
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« Reply #4168 on: May 21, 2012, 12:43:44 PM »

Evolution seems to be the best theory that there is , but it fails to take God into account. Personally, I believe that God initiated the evolutionary process, and that He tweaks it periodically, by modifying species so that they can suvive environmental changes.
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« Reply #4169 on: June 07, 2012, 03:38:24 PM »

Evolution seems to be the best theory that there is , but it fails to take God into account. Personally, I believe that God initiated the evolutionary process, and that He tweaks it periodically, by modifying species so that they can suvive environmental changes.

That's a very good theory, and also what I believe. I am in university in the Paleozoology/Evolutionary Biology field and sadly, if I talk about God I feel like the pink elephant in the room. I'm afraid when I start teaching that if I so much as mention God in one of those courses I'll lose my job.  Embarrassed

Because, for whatever reason, people think that Christians are Y.E. believers and that Evolutionists are Atheists. It's just absurd.
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« Reply #4170 on: July 17, 2012, 11:18:09 PM »

There seems to be several types of evolution and I was hoping someone could give me a precise meaning when they say 'evolution'.  Also, is it compatible within a Christian view, or does it weaken Christianity?
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« Reply #4171 on: July 17, 2012, 11:24:35 PM »

The simplest (or shortest anyway) definition I've heard is the "descent with modification" answer, which this seems to sum up well...

"Biological evolution, simply put, is descent with modification. This definition encompasses small-scale evolution (changes in gene frequency in a population from one generation to the next) and large-scale evolution (the descent of different species from a common ancestor over many generations). Evolution helps us to understand the history of life." - Source
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« Reply #4172 on: July 17, 2012, 11:35:29 PM »

There seems to be several types of evolution and I was hoping someone could give me a precise meaning when they say 'evolution'.  Also, is it compatible within a Christian view, or does it weaken Christianity?

The evolution thread seems to cover this topic in detail.

A thread again dealing strictly with the problems introduced by evolution into Christianity would be interesting, those who aren't using their Bible as a scientific text are discussing the problems.

Problems of various scientific endeavors could create problems for a Christian view.

Americans for reasons, which I am not quite clear yet about, find their lightening rod in evolution.
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« Reply #4173 on: July 17, 2012, 11:37:10 PM »

There seems to be several types of evolution and I was hoping someone could give me a precise meaning when they say 'evolution'.  Also, is it compatible within a Christian view, or does it weaken Christianity?

The evolution thread seems to cover this topic in detail.
Here is the evolution thread: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #4174 on: July 17, 2012, 11:37:56 PM »

So orthornorm are you saying that if we evolved from apes we run into the problem of being created in the image and likeness of God?
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« Reply #4175 on: July 17, 2012, 11:38:49 PM »

So orthornorm are you saying that if we evolved from apes we run into the problem of being created in the image and likeness of God?

No.
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« Reply #4176 on: July 17, 2012, 11:41:35 PM »

Ok I think you said it earlier but the conception of death before the Fall is problematic.

However I am not as readily accepting of evolution because of its philosophical implications.
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« Reply #4177 on: July 17, 2012, 11:42:59 PM »

Ok I think you said it earlier but the conception of death before the Fall is problematic.

However I am not as readily accepting of evolution because of its philosophical implications.

It really has no "philosophical" implications.
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« Reply #4178 on: July 17, 2012, 11:50:38 PM »

So orthornorm are you saying that if we evolved from apes we run into the problem of being created in the image and likeness of God?

No one but Creationists believe we evolved from apes. Evolutionary biology contends that humans and apes share a common ancestor.

ETA: Unless by "apes" you mean Great Apes (Hominidae, thank you Google).
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« Reply #4179 on: July 17, 2012, 11:53:27 PM »

There seems to be several types of evolution and I was hoping someone could give me a precise meaning when they say 'evolution'.  Also, is it compatible within a Christian view, or does it weaken Christianity?

The evolution thread seems to cover this topic in detail.
Here is the evolution thread: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy.

That's it!  Thanks PtA!  Smiley
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« Reply #4180 on: July 18, 2012, 12:00:21 AM »

Every week someone tries to make a monkey out of me, why would I willingly subscribe to a philosophy that also wants to make me out of a monkey?
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« Reply #4181 on: July 18, 2012, 12:03:33 AM »

So orthornorm are you saying that if we evolved from apes we run into the problem of being created in the image and likeness of God?

No one but Creationists believe we evolved from apes. Evolutionary biology contends that humans and apes share a common ancestor.

None of this matters really. The worst characterization of "evolution" by the most uninformed creationist is just as problematic for Christian anthropology as the most refined statement by someone working within evolutionary biology.

Arguing over "scientific trivialities" takes away from the larger discussion and exposes a similar ideology shared by both groups: the triumph of mathematical-physical-organizational empiricism as the operative way of discussing the question.

The primary question raised against Christian anthropology by evolution by anyone's understanding is primarily the advent of death before the fall. (The question of animality is a secondary one and one which when I raised in a most simple fashion here, fell to silence, which is why I don't find putting much energy into these discussions is very productive.)

Christian theology is touched by the question, while thinking proper (philosophy) approaches the questions of origins in a more primordial, radical manner which always precedes such organizational projects like the mathematical physical sciences.



« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 12:04:28 AM by orthonorm » Logged

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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #4182 on: July 18, 2012, 12:04:15 AM »

Every week someone tries to make a monkey out of me, why would I willingly subscribe to a philosophy that also wants to make me out of a monkey?

You prefer God to breathe life into dirt straight from the ground, rather than an evolved animal then?
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« Reply #4183 on: July 18, 2012, 12:05:51 AM »

There seems to be several types of evolution and I was hoping someone could give me a precise meaning when they say 'evolution'.  Also, is it compatible within a Christian view, or does it weaken Christianity?

The evolution thread seems to cover this topic in detail.
Here is the evolution thread: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy.

That's it!  Thanks PtA!  Smiley

When you finish reading, let's talk.

See you in a year or two!

//:=)
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« Reply #4184 on: July 18, 2012, 12:10:33 AM »

Every week someone tries to make a monkey out of me, why would I willingly subscribe to a philosophy that also wants to make me out of a monkey?

You prefer God to breathe life into dirt straight from the ground, rather than an evolved animal then?

Well, sure, if only because "It is written"

Although I lean towards young earth creationism as, for example, St. Ephrem the Syrian did, I have no problem with those who emphasize the allegorical dimension of Genesis as Bl. Augustine did.

I think there is room for both views in the Church since Creation sciences are by necessity speculative rather than empirical sciences.

It could have happened either way, WHICH WAY is above both our pay grades to determine.
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Tags: science Theory of Evolution evolution creationism cheval mort 
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