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Question: Do you believe that the acount of genesis in the Old testament should be taken literally?
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Author Topic: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy  (Read 329205 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #1755 on: January 27, 2010, 02:51:14 PM »



Orthodoxy will never "force" you to do anything.  The Church will try to educate you and to help you along in your understanding, however, nothing is ever forced upon you.  Christ never forced anyone to do or believe anything....He simply explained it to them...where they could see and accept His logic (or not).

If you are asking if the Orthodox Church supports evolution in the sense that mankind evolved from chimps, then NO, the Church does NOT hold to this thinking.

God created mankind.


thanks, doesn't the roman church believe in chimp to man evolution, and also in the possibility of alien life (not really based on science, but science fiction books, and conspiracy theories in my opinion?
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« Reply #1756 on: January 27, 2010, 02:55:08 PM »

Quote
I just want a return to pre-evolution creationism.
You want this, but is this issue something necessary for salvation, or is it simply an issue that you believe is important and you believe everyone else should adopt because you believe it's correct?

I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but you are being very critical, look at the Nicene Creed, that is what we MUST believe. Almost anything else is pretty much up to debate since it won't affect our salvation...

As Liza said, the church doesn't force you to do anything, it's your choice... The only thing you have to believe is that God created all things...

Again, the Church doesn't force you to do anything... However to be Orthodox, you must accept the Creed. If you choose not to believe what the Church says you need to, then that means you are separating yourself from the Church.
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« Reply #1757 on: January 27, 2010, 02:59:24 PM »

yeah Evolution says that there was death before man (you know like the dinosaurs).
1Co 15:21  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
but the Bible says that man brought death, but survival of the fittest (avoiding death) says death or evolution brought everyone here.
these two world views are very different, and I find it impossible to reconcile the two without giving up alot of what we believe.
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« Reply #1758 on: January 27, 2010, 03:02:38 PM »

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I just want a return to pre-evolution creationism.
You want this, but is this issue something necessary for salvation, or is it simply an issue that you believe is important and you believe everyone else should adopt because you believe it's correct?

I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but you are being very critical, look at the Nicene Creed, that is what we MUST believe. Almost anything else is pretty much up to debate since it won't affect our salvation...

As Liza said, the church doesn't force you to do anything, it's your choice... The only thing you have to believe is that God created all things...

Again, the Church doesn't force you to do anything... However to be Orthodox, you must accept the Creed. If you choose not to believe what the Church says you need to, then that means you are separating yourself from the Church.

The Nicene creed mentions creationism:
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
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« Reply #1759 on: January 27, 2010, 03:06:51 PM »

and that's why I'm asking if the orthodox church believe in it. I"ve heard that they don't force you to believe either side.
Well, you're quite likely to get a full range of ideas. (I see someone has already posted the beginning of this thought, but here it is anyway) The Nicene Creed teaches "...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord, Jesus Christ...by Whom all things were made; in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of Life...." Beyond that, I'm not aware of any "Thou shalt believe..."

As for myself, it constantly amazes me that it took a whole six days for God to create the earth. He could just as easily have simply snapped His fingers, so to speak, and caused the entire universe to come into existence. But He didn't. He took the time and trouble and care to prepare this physical home for us, albeit temporary. It's clear enough that God cares for me as part of His creation. It really doesn't matter to me whether He took six milliseconds or six gazillion centuries to create the universe. You might want to ask yourself why it matters to you.
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« Reply #1760 on: January 27, 2010, 03:11:35 PM »

and that's why I'm asking if the orthodox church believe in it. I"ve heard that they don't force you to believe either side.
Well, you're quite likely to get a full range of ideas. (I see someone has already posted the beginning of this thought, but here it is anyway) The Nicene Creed teaches "...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord, Jesus Christ...by Whom all things were made; in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of Life...." Beyond that, I'm not aware of any "Thou shalt believe..."

As for myself, it constantly amazes me that it took a whole six days for God to create the earth. He could just as easily have simply snapped His fingers, so to speak, and caused the entire universe to come into existence. But He didn't. He took the time and trouble and care to prepare this physical home for us, albeit temporary. It's clear enough that God cares for me as part of His creation. It really doesn't matter to me whether He took six milliseconds or six gazillion centuries to create the universe. You might want to ask yourself why it matters to you.
I feel like evolution is affecting creationism,changing what was believed by the early church.
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« Reply #1761 on: January 27, 2010, 03:14:25 PM »

and that's why I'm asking if the orthodox church believe in it. I"ve heard that they don't force you to believe either side.
Well, you're quite likely to get a full range of ideas. (I see someone has already posted the beginning of this thought, but here it is anyway) The Nicene Creed teaches "...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord, Jesus Christ...by Whom all things were made; in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of Life...." Beyond that, I'm not aware of any "Thou shalt believe..."

As for myself, it constantly amazes me that it took a whole six days for God to create the earth. He could just as easily have simply snapped His fingers, so to speak, and caused the entire universe to come into existence. But He didn't. He took the time and trouble and care to prepare this physical home for us, albeit temporary. It's clear enough that God cares for me as part of His creation. It really doesn't matter to me whether He took six milliseconds or six gazillion centuries to create the universe. You might want to ask yourself why it matters to you.
I feel like evolution is affecting creationism,changing what was believed by the early church.
I know what's it called, I want to know if the orthodox church believes in theistic evolution, that God guided the evolution process.
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« Reply #1762 on: January 27, 2010, 03:21:01 PM »

"theistic evolution" as well as 'creationism" are equally novel ideologies, largely foreign to the OC ,  which, as I understand, our Church has no stance on.
We are only required to assent to what the creed says: "I believe in one God...maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible...and in one Lord, Jesus Christ... through Whom all things were made...". As all these things came to pass it is not our Church's business to explain, in detail.
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« Reply #1763 on: January 27, 2010, 03:26:25 PM »

You can say that the Orthodox Church really doesn't accept Evolutionism or Creationism... Both are pretty modern ideas...

As we said, the Orthodox Church doesn't say what you have to believe on this subject, other than you must believe that God created everything. (whether he created it directly or through evolution is up to interpretation)

As augustin717 just said, our Church doesn't have a solid stance on the issue, and why should it, as it's not an issue that could destroy one's communion with God.

If you are curious about what some Church Fathers have said, look at St. Basil's Hexaemeron... However, be careful and don't apply modern ideas of creationism to his writings, it would be wrong to impose our own modern understandings/beliefs on what he was saying back then...
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf208.toc.html
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« Reply #1764 on: January 27, 2010, 03:34:15 PM »

I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but you are being very critical, look at the Nicene Creed, that is what we MUST believe. Almost anything else is pretty much up to debate since it won't affect our salvation...

So are you saying that individuals who don't believe in the Nicene Creed are damned? What do you mean by 'it won't affect our salvation...'
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« Reply #1765 on: January 27, 2010, 03:36:36 PM »

(whether he created it directly or through evolution is up to interpretation)

I think this is a false dichotomy.  Theistic Evolutionists would say that God directly created the cosmos through evolution.
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« Reply #1766 on: January 27, 2010, 03:43:45 PM »

All literal interpretations refuted through Augustine's views. You won't find his book on Creation on-line easily though.


Apostle Barnabas says in his (?) epistle that we are to interpret each day as 1.000 years, since 1.000 years are a day to our Lord.


"Our admiration is not being reduced when we discover how the way which they were made."(Hexaemeron 1:10)
"Thus whether you call it day, or whether you call it eternity, you express the same idea."(Hexaemeron 2:8)
These are St. Basil's words. The Greek text says aeon (αἰῶνας). It's funny, because that probably makes him one of the first men to ever give such a late date to the Earth's creation, right?


P.S.: I took the liberty of giving a more accurate and word-by-word translation to the words of St. Basil.
It is also being speculated that Darwin came up with the theory of evolution inspired from the process of development shown in Genesis.


EDIT: Does anyone know why did the 7th Day did not come to an end? Smiley
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« Reply #1767 on: January 27, 2010, 03:48:48 PM »

I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but you are being very critical, look at the Nicene Creed, that is what we MUST believe. Almost anything else is pretty much up to debate since it won't affect our salvation...

So are you saying that individuals who don't believe in the Nicene Creed are damned? What do you mean by 'it won't affect our salvation...'

I don't think I said that at all... But if you don't believe the Nicene Creed, you cannot be a Christian and certainly cannot be Orthodox. It is up to God who is saved and who is damned.

(whether he created it directly or through evolution is up to interpretation)

I think this is a false dichotomy.  Theistic Evolutionists would say that God directly created the cosmos through evolution.

What I meant when I said "directly" was the only way I could think to describe creationism, I'm not doubting it would have been direct creation through evolution, I was just trying to illustrate that he could have created by either means, I wasn't trying to make a theological statement.
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« Reply #1768 on: January 27, 2010, 04:17:32 PM »

Exo 20:8  Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9  Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10  But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11  For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
(from the ten commandments.)
Does the orthodox church believe that God made Heaven and earth and all that in them is in six days then rested on the seventh as the ten commandment says?
please don't tell me that 6 days is really longer than 24 hour days,because the Jews would have been working for from day 1 and 2 thousands of years, and maybe even millions of years before taking the sabbath day, for those who want to reconcile scripture to the world.

Personally I can't become roman catholic because they compromised the early church and ancient Israel's belief, with the world, they gave up, they no longer believe in 6 days, but in the first millennium God made this, then the second millennium God made this, if the orthodox can't even belief the first chapter of the Bible without worldy athiestic interpretation, then I might as well not be orthodox, not even christian anything.
So, you've decided what the authoritative interpretation of Scripture is and that you cannot be in communion with any church that does not submit to this interpretation? Huh
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« Reply #1769 on: January 27, 2010, 04:35:21 PM »

Exo 20:8  Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9  Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10  But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11  For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
(from the ten commandments.)
Does the orthodox church believe that God made Heaven and earth and all that in them is in six days then rested on the seventh as the ten commandment says?
please don't tell me that 6 days is really longer than 24 hour days,because the Jews would have been working for from day 1 and 2 thousands of years, and maybe even millions of years before taking the sabbath day, for those who want to reconcile scripture to the world.

Personally I can't become roman catholic because they compromised the early church and ancient Israel's belief, with the world, they gave up, they no longer believe in 6 days, but in the first millennium God made this, then the second millennium God made this, if the orthodox can't even belief the first chapter of the Bible without worldy athiestic interpretation, then I might as well not be orthodox, not even christian anything.

Is this supposed to be funny?
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« Reply #1770 on: January 27, 2010, 04:44:12 PM »



Orthodoxy will never "force" you to do anything.  The Church will try to educate you and to help you along in your understanding, however, nothing is ever forced upon you.  Christ never forced anyone to do or believe anything....He simply explained it to them...where they could see and accept His logic (or not).

If you are asking if the Orthodox Church supports evolution in the sense that mankind evolved from chimps, then NO, the Church does NOT hold to this thinking.

God created mankind.



Anyone who holds to such thinking doesn't understand the theory of evolution. According to the theory of evolution, man and chimps are modern creatures which share an ancient common ancestor.

While some Orthodox Christians might believe only in creationism in the modern sense of a literal understanding of the Genesis account of the Creation, others accept the theory of evolution to explain the emergence of mankind and the diversity of life on this planet. The theory of evolution does not speak of life's origins. All Orthodox Christians accept that God created all things, seen and unseen.
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« Reply #1771 on: January 27, 2010, 04:51:57 PM »

All literal interpretations refuted through Augustine's views. You won't find his book on Creation on-line easily though.


Apostle Barnabas says in his (?) epistle that we are to interpret each day as 1.000 years, since 1.000 years are a day to our Lord.


"Our admiration is not being reduced when we discover how the way which they were made."(Hexaemeron 1:10)
"Thus whether you call it day, or whether you call it eternity, you express the same idea."(Hexaemeron 2:8)
These are St. Basil's words. The Greek text says aeon (αἰῶνας). It's funny, because that probably makes him one of the first men to ever give such a late date to the Earth's creation, right?


P.S.: I took the liberty of giving a more accurate and word-by-word translation to the words of St. Basil.
It is also being speculated that Darwin came up with the theory of evolution inspired from the process of development shown in Genesis.


EDIT: Does anyone know why did the 7th Day did not come to an end? Smiley
«Apostle Barnabas says in his (?) epistle that we are to interpret each day as 1.000 years, since 1.000 years are a day to our Lord.»
but then does that mean God meant that the Jews were suppose to work 6000 years and rest for 1000?
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« Reply #1772 on: January 27, 2010, 05:03:35 PM »

All literal interpretations refuted through Augustine's views. You won't find his book on Creation on-line easily though.


Apostle Barnabas says in his (?) epistle that we are to interpret each day as 1.000 years, since 1.000 years are a day to our Lord.


"Our admiration is not being reduced when we discover how the way which they were made."(Hexaemeron 1:10)
"Thus whether you call it day, or whether you call it eternity, you express the same idea."(Hexaemeron 2:8)
These are St. Basil's words. The Greek text says aeon (αἰῶνας). It's funny, because that probably makes him one of the first men to ever give such a late date to the Earth's creation, right?


P.S.: I took the liberty of giving a more accurate and word-by-word translation to the words of St. Basil.
It is also being speculated that Darwin came up with the theory of evolution inspired from the process of development shown in Genesis.


EDIT: Does anyone know why did the 7th Day did not come to an end? Smiley
«Apostle Barnabas says in his (?) epistle that we are to interpret each day as 1.000 years, since 1.000 years are a day to our Lord.»
but then does that mean God meant that the Jews were suppose to work 6000 years and rest for 1000?
Only if you accept the Epistle of Barnabas as bearing authority equal to that of the Scriptures and New Testament, which we don't.
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« Reply #1773 on: January 27, 2010, 05:10:22 PM »

+ Irini nem ehmot,

I think GammaRay meant the second Epistle of Peter, not the Epistle of Barnabas.

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« Reply #1774 on: January 27, 2010, 05:54:19 PM »

Exo 20:10  But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11  For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

I'm not sure, but I think most of the people who hold to the literal interpretation of verse 11 do not hold to the same literal interpretation of verse 10. What do you think the purpose was for resting on the seventh day?
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« Reply #1775 on: January 27, 2010, 06:06:38 PM »

I like when the Church Fathers would see parts of the Genesis story as being simultaneously literal and spiritual (e.g. with their understanding of what the "garments of skin" referred to). I sometimes wonder if such facts makes the heads of literalists nearly explode.
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« Reply #1776 on: January 27, 2010, 06:20:02 PM »

I like when the Church Fathers would see parts of the Genesis story as being simultaneously literal and spiritual (e.g. with their understanding of what the "garments of skin" referred to). I sometimes wonder if such facts makes the heads of literalists nearly explode.
1Co 15:21  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
Why do you think animals die?
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« Reply #1777 on: January 27, 2010, 06:30:09 PM »

No, no - I did mean the Epistle of Barnabas. But, since you mentioned it, both Psalms and 2 Peter speak of this, but only Barnabas uses this on interpreting Genesis.

but then does that mean God meant that the Jews were suppose to work 6000 years and rest for 1000?
Would be totally awesome, wouldn't it? Cheesy
Tell me, Christianus. When did the 7th Day come to an end? What happened then? No setting sun?
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« Reply #1778 on: January 27, 2010, 06:36:06 PM »

No, no - I did mean the Epistle of Barnabas. But, since you mentioned it, both Psalms and 2 Peter speak of this, but only Barnabas uses this on interpreting Genesis.

but then does that mean God meant that the Jews were suppose to work 6000 years and rest for 1000?
Would be totally awesome, wouldn't it? Cheesy
Tell me, Christianus. When did the 7th Day come to an end? What happened then? No setting sun?
it ended like any holy sabbath day ends, if not then we get to rest forever on saturday because it never ends, no more work anymore because sunday is never coming again. haha
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« Reply #1779 on: January 27, 2010, 06:38:24 PM »

Quote
Why do you think animals die?

Animals die because a woman made from a rib got tricked by a talking snake into eating from a magical tree. The woman then convinced her husband to take a bit as well. Then a single God made up of three people threw this woman and her husband out of a magical garden. I don't know why those dastardly atheist types find this stuff so hard to believe. *shrugs*  angel
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« Reply #1780 on: January 27, 2010, 06:45:38 PM »

I like when the Church Fathers would see parts of the Genesis story as being simultaneously literal and spiritual (e.g. with their understanding of what the "garments of skin" referred to). I sometimes wonder if such facts makes the heads of literalists nearly explode.
1Co 15:21  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
Why do you think animals die?

"Here we must contemplate the meanings of the words death and sin as applied to man and to animals and plants. The word death is full of uniquely human tragic meaning. Can we really apply this word, with its human implications, to the non-human world? Death is, for humans, a tragedy, something that clearly "should not happen." It is not surprising that in Russian philosophy the human fear of death is perceived as empirical evidence of our "otherworldly" origin and destination: if man appeared as a result of natural evolution and of the struggle for survival, he would not find so repulsive that which is "natural." Death has entered the human world through sin — this is certain. Death is evil and was not created by God — this is also an axiom of biblical theology.

It seems to me there is only one possible conclusion that can be drawn from this: the "death" of animals is not similar to human death. If we say "Socrates died," the meaning and implications of this are quite dissimilar to such expressions as the "death of a dog" or the "death of a star" or the "death of a chair." Animals terminate their being, "died," but in application to them, this word is used in a metaphoric sense, and termination of the physiological processes in, say, a monkey, is not the same thing as human death. Animals did cease to exist in the pre-human world. But this is not death — in theology and philosophy we can not discuss the phenomenon of death in the non-human world.

Yes, death is a consequence of sin. But what is sin? It is the violation of the will of the Creator. Can we be sure that the death of animals is a violation of the Creator’s will? Did God create animals for immortality? Was it His will to make them the communicants of eternity? Did He offer them the Bread of Life and the Eucharist?

If not, then the temporal finiteness of animal (and plant, bacterial, and fungal) life is not a violation of the design of the Creator, and is neither a sin nor a distortion of the Creator’s will. If Holy Communion is the only Bread of Life, and yet, obviously, we do not see animals receiving it in churches, this Bread, and this Eternity — are not meant for them. The death of animals is not a violation of the Divine will also because the Bible does not promise eternity to this world in general either; only humans inherit eternity, and the words of the Saviour in Mat. 25:34, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world," are addressed to them, and not to animals or other living beings. The rest will burn away, and if upon the new creation (not resurrection, but creation of the "new earth and new heavens") God will want to plant animals there too, they will appear as well, but they will not necessarily be the "immortalized" animals of our current world.

God did not create animals for immortality — and this is why there is no violation of the will of God, no sin — in their departure from existence. St. Augistine wrote, "Animals were created mortal." Prior to him, a similar view is characteristic of St. Methodios of Patara.

"There is usually similarity between the one that produces something and the product. God is immortality, life, and incorruption: a man is a creature of God, and, being produced by immortality, man is immortal as well. This is why God has directly produced man, while He gave orders to the air, earth, and waters to produce the other types of animals . . . and while animals received the ability to live from air, Adam received it from the immortal Being, for He breathed into him the breath of life."

Not being a violation of the Divine will, the death of animals does not imply some defect in the goodness of the original, created world. It is only after the only creature that truly is made in the image and likeness of the Creator, man, himself steps down to the level of the animal world and makes himself subject to the laws of the struggle for existence, life and death, that are present in the pre-human world — this is when we see the violation of the will of God. It seems that we got used to equalizing ourselves to animals too much — to the extent that non-Christians make out of it reasons to justify their own passions and lawlessness, while Christians are inclined to extend the gifts of the Holy Spirit, granted to them, to the animal world . . ."

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/evolution_kuraev.htm

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« Reply #1781 on: January 27, 2010, 06:50:54 PM »

No, no - I did mean the Epistle of Barnabas. But, since you mentioned it, both Psalms and 2 Peter speak of this, but only Barnabas uses this on interpreting Genesis.

but then does that mean God meant that the Jews were suppose to work 6000 years and rest for 1000?
Would be totally awesome, wouldn't it? Cheesy
Tell me, Christianus. When did the 7th Day come to an end? What happened then? No setting sun?
plus today's Wednesday, not Saturday, so days change
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« Reply #1782 on: January 27, 2010, 07:00:54 PM »

Exo 20:10  But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11  For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

I'm not sure, but I think most of the people who hold to the literal interpretation of verse 11 do not hold to the same literal interpretation of verse 10. What do you think the purpose was for resting on the seventh day?
I hold both verse to mean days, just as the Bible says.
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« Reply #1783 on: January 27, 2010, 07:02:22 PM »

Exo 20:10  But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11  For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

I'm not sure, but I think most of the people who hold to the literal interpretation of verse 11 do not hold to the same literal interpretation of verse 10. What do you think the purpose was for resting on the seventh day?
I hold both verse to mean days, just as the Bible says.
But what does "day" mean?
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« Reply #1784 on: January 27, 2010, 07:08:28 PM »

I like when the Church Fathers would see parts of the Genesis story as being simultaneously literal and spiritual (e.g. with their understanding of what the "garments of skin" referred to). I sometimes wonder if such facts makes the heads of literalists nearly explode.
1Co 15:21  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
Why do you think animals die?

"Here we must contemplate the meanings of the words death and sin as applied to man and to animals and plants. The word death is full of uniquely human tragic meaning. Can we really apply this word, with its human implications, to the non-human world? Death is, for humans, a tragedy, something that clearly "should not happen." It is not surprising that in Russian philosophy the human fear of death is perceived as empirical evidence of our "otherworldly" origin and destination: if man appeared as a result of natural evolution and of the struggle for survival, he would not find so repulsive that which is "natural." Death has entered the human world through sin — this is certain. Death is evil and was not created by God — this is also an axiom of biblical theology.

It seems to me there is only one possible conclusion that can be drawn from this: the "death" of animals is not similar to human death. If we say "Socrates died," the meaning and implications of this are quite dissimilar to such expressions as the "death of a dog" or the "death of a star" or the "death of a chair." Animals terminate their being, "died," but in application to them, this word is used in a metaphoric sense, and termination of the physiological processes in, say, a monkey, is not the same thing as human death. Animals did cease to exist in the pre-human world. But this is not death — in theology and philosophy we can not discuss the phenomenon of death in the non-human world.

Yes, death is a consequence of sin. But what is sin? It is the violation of the will of the Creator. Can we be sure that the death of animals is a violation of the Creator’s will? Did God create animals for immortality? Was it His will to make them the communicants of eternity? Did He offer them the Bread of Life and the Eucharist?

If not, then the temporal finiteness of animal (and plant, bacterial, and fungal) life is not a violation of the design of the Creator, and is neither a sin nor a distortion of the Creator’s will. If Holy Communion is the only Bread of Life, and yet, obviously, we do not see animals receiving it in churches, this Bread, and this Eternity — are not meant for them. The death of animals is not a violation of the Divine will also because the Bible does not promise eternity to this world in general either; only humans inherit eternity, and the words of the Saviour in Mat. 25:34, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world," are addressed to them, and not to animals or other living beings. The rest will burn away, and if upon the new creation (not resurrection, but creation of the "new earth and new heavens") God will want to plant animals there too, they will appear as well, but they will not necessarily be the "immortalized" animals of our current world.

God did not create animals for immortality — and this is why there is no violation of the will of God, no sin — in their departure from existence. St. Augistine wrote, "Animals were created mortal." Prior to him, a similar view is characteristic of St. Methodios of Patara.

"There is usually similarity between the one that produces something and the product. God is immortality, life, and incorruption: a man is a creature of God, and, being produced by immortality, man is immortal as well. This is why God has directly produced man, while He gave orders to the air, earth, and waters to produce the other types of animals . . . and while animals received the ability to live from air, Adam received it from the immortal Being, for He breathed into him the breath of life."

Not being a violation of the Divine will, the death of animals does not imply some defect in the goodness of the original, created world. It is only after the only creature that truly is made in the image and likeness of the Creator, man, himself steps down to the level of the animal world and makes himself subject to the laws of the struggle for existence, life and death, that are present in the pre-human world — this is when we see the violation of the will of God. It seems that we got used to equalizing ourselves to animals too much — to the extent that non-Christians make out of it reasons to justify their own passions and lawlessness, while Christians are inclined to extend the gifts of the Holy Spirit, granted to them, to the animal world . . ."

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/evolution_kuraev.htm


animals didn't die before adam's sin, I'm sure there are millions of children who cry because their pets die, and animals won't die in Jesus' kingdom, even in heaven you have animal like creatures that probably don't die, like in  Rev 4:7-8.
Animals don't die because of their own sins, rather that man brought death to the whole world, to animals, and to our Saviour Jesus Christ, who did not die because he was a sinner, but for us and our sins, so you have people dying and suffering because of someone else's sins.
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« Reply #1785 on: January 27, 2010, 07:10:01 PM »

Exo 20:10  But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11  For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

I'm not sure, but I think most of the people who hold to the literal interpretation of verse 11 do not hold to the same literal interpretation of verse 10. What do you think the purpose was for resting on the seventh day?
I hold both verse to mean days, just as the Bible says.
But what does "day" mean?
verse ten probably is the best meaning, as 24 hour days, if it were a day equals a thousand years, then you have Jews working for 6000 years, then not working for a thousand years.
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« Reply #1786 on: January 27, 2010, 07:12:06 PM »

+ Irini nem ehmot,

No, no - I did mean the Epistle of Barnabas. But, since you mentioned it, both Psalms and 2 Peter speak of this, but only Barnabas uses this on interpreting Genesis.


My apologies.  I should have read the Epistle of Barnabas first before jumping to conclusions.
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« Reply #1787 on: January 27, 2010, 07:16:29 PM »

Exo 20:10  But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11  For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

I'm not sure, but I think most of the people who hold to the literal interpretation of verse 11 do not hold to the same literal interpretation of verse 10. What do you think the purpose was for resting on the seventh day?
I hold both verse to mean days, just as the Bible says.

What I mean to say is that out of all the strict 6 24-hour day creationists, I think the majority of them do not keep the sabbath on the seventh day of the week as stated.
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« Reply #1788 on: January 27, 2010, 07:18:12 PM »

Also, what do you believe the point of the rest on the seventh day was?
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« Reply #1789 on: January 27, 2010, 07:20:44 PM »

Exo 20:10  But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11  For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

I'm not sure, but I think most of the people who hold to the literal interpretation of verse 11 do not hold to the same literal interpretation of verse 10. What do you think the purpose was for resting on the seventh day?
I hold both verse to mean days, just as the Bible says.

What I mean to say is that out of all the strict 6 24-hour day creationists, I think the majority of them do not keep the sabbath on the seventh day of the week as stated.
well the unliteral person tells me that a day is a 1000 years, so I have to work for 6000 years before I get keep the sabbath.
but just believe the plain words of day, Jesus was dead for three literal days, he wasn't dead for 3000 years.
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« Reply #1790 on: January 27, 2010, 07:32:07 PM »

Animals didn't die before Adam's sin,

A statement open to debate and unprovable, the Fall was an event that was cosmic in its distortions (the Resurrection was just as cosmic) and thus it is impossible to reach conclusions about a pre-Fall world. I, for one, just posted the opinion of one theologian. I'm not passing it off as a infallible or dogma or the voice of God.

Quote
I'm sure there are millions of children who cry because their pets die

Of course. But what the theologian is questioning is whether or not animals actually fear death in the sense we do. Suffice it to say that there are not baboons in Africa sitting around having philosophical discussions on the nature of death.

Quote
and animals won't die in Jesus' kingdom

Debatable.

Quote
even in heaven you have animal like creatures that probably don't die, like in  Rev 4:7-8.

Trying to interpret Revelation is pointless (and dangerous).

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« Reply #1791 on: January 27, 2010, 07:50:58 PM »

Animals didn't die before Adam's sin,

A statement open to debate and unprovable, the Fall was an event that was cosmic in its distortions (the Resurrection was just as cosmic) and thus it is impossible to reach conclusions about a pre-Fall world. I, for one, just posted the opinion of one theologian. I'm not passing it off as a infallible or dogma or the voice of God.

Quote
I'm sure there are millions of children who cry because their pets die

Of course. But what the theologian is questioning is whether or not animals actually fear death in the sense we do. Suffice it to say that there are not baboons in Africa sitting around having philosophical discussions on the nature of death.

Quote
and animals won't die in Jesus' kingdom

Debatable.

Quote
even in heaven you have animal like creatures that probably don't die, like in  Rev 4:7-8.

Trying to interpret Revelation is pointless (and dangerous).


then why do animals die then? I say because of adam's sin.
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« Reply #1792 on: January 27, 2010, 07:59:14 PM »

Exo 20:10  But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11  For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

I'm not sure, but I think most of the people who hold to the literal interpretation of verse 11 do not hold to the same literal interpretation of verse 10. What do you think the purpose was for resting on the seventh day?
I hold both verse to mean days, just as the Bible says.

What I mean to say is that out of all the strict 6 24-hour day creationists, I think the majority of them do not keep the sabbath on the seventh day of the week as stated.
well the unliteral person tells me that a day is a 1000 years, so I have to work for 6000 years before I get keep the sabbath.
but just believe the plain words of day, Jesus was dead for three literal days, he wasn't dead for 3000 years.

Forgive me, but I think you are missing the point. Saturday is the seventh day of the week, and no one, with the exception of Seventh Day Adventists, keeps the sabbath on the sabbath, which is literally sarurday. That is the inconsistency in the literal interpretation of groups who hold that interpretation.

God created us. Out of nothing. Out of love. In His image and likeness. To have dominion over creation. To worship and glorify Him.

Scripture tells us who God is, who we are (both who we actually are and who we are intended to be), and how we relate to God - which is through Jesus Christ. That is the purpose and point of scripture. That is it's only purpose and point. It's like Peter when he got out of the boat. He did not have any trouble whatsoever walking on water until he took his eyes off Christ. That's when he sank. It does no good to know "what" is written if you don't know "why" which must be looked at in relation to Jesus Christ. You will sink the second you take your eyes off of Christ. It's ok to have opinions about things, but it's not ok to believe that anyone's personal opinions are universally dogmatically binding on everyone, especially when they don't concern how we relate to God.

Which brings us back to asking what is so special about the sabbath and resting on the sabbath?
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« Reply #1793 on: January 27, 2010, 08:14:46 PM »

then why do animals die then?

Does it matter what the answer is??


Quote
I say because of Adam's sin.

I, I, I....
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« Reply #1794 on: January 27, 2010, 08:24:00 PM »

then why do animals die then?

Does it matter what the answer is??


Quote
I say because of Adam's sin.

I, I, I....
Sorry man, but I have to use I English forces me to, if it were Greek or Spanish, then I could conjugate the saying without saying I. English is so pronoun saturated.
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« Reply #1795 on: January 27, 2010, 08:24:56 PM »

Sorry man, but I have to use I English forces me to, if it were Greek or Spanish, then I could conjugate the saying without saying I. English is so pronoun saturated.

My issue wasn't with your grammar...
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« Reply #1796 on: January 27, 2010, 10:44:19 PM »

Animals didn't die before Adam's sin,

A statement open to debate and unprovable, the Fall was an event that was cosmic in its distortions (the Resurrection was just as cosmic) and thus it is impossible to reach conclusions about a pre-Fall world. I, for one, just posted the opinion of one theologian. I'm not passing it off as a infallible or dogma or the voice of God.

Quote
I'm sure there are millions of children who cry because their pets die

Of course. But what the theologian is questioning is whether or not animals actually fear death in the sense we do. Suffice it to say that there are not baboons in Africa sitting around having philosophical discussions on the nature of death.

Quote
and animals won't die in Jesus' kingdom

Debatable.

Quote
even in heaven you have animal like creatures that probably don't die, like in  Rev 4:7-8.

Trying to interpret Revelation is pointless (and dangerous).


then why do animals die then? I say because of adam's sin.
But then you're setting yourself up to be the authoritative arbiter of truth, which appears to be the very reason this thread exists in the first place.  You will not join any church that disagrees with your interpretation of Scripture.  I think that's the point Ukiemeister wanted to make by pointing out your use of the first-person pronoun "I".
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« Reply #1797 on: January 28, 2010, 12:03:46 AM »


...besides...if this is what you base your "Christianity" on...then you are completely missing what truly is Christianity.

Take a deep breath...and begin, again.

He/She is probably a kid. The tone of the post seemed as if it came from someone young.





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« Reply #1798 on: January 28, 2010, 12:04:02 AM »

A statement open to debate and unprovable, the Fall was an event that was cosmic in its distortions (the Resurrection was just as cosmic) and thus it is impossible to reach conclusions about a pre-Fall world. I, for one, just posted the opinion of one theologian. I'm not passing it off as a infallible or dogma or the voice of God.

I'd say that is debatable.  How do you know that somewhere our galaxy or the Universe the Word did not become (insert alien descriptor) as well?
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« Reply #1799 on: January 28, 2010, 12:07:42 AM »

Exo 20:8  Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9  Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10  But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11  For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
(from the ten commandments.)
Does the orthodox church believe that God made Heaven and earth and all that in them is in six days then rested on the seventh as the ten commandment says?
please don't tell me that 6 days is really longer than 24 hour days,because the Jews would have been working for from day 1 and 2 thousands of years, and maybe even millions of years before taking the sabbath day, for those who want to reconcile scripture to the world.

Personally I can't become roman catholic because they compromised the early church and ancient Israel's belief, with the world, they gave up, they no longer believe in 6 days, but in the first millennium God made this, then the second millennium God made this, if the orthodox can't even belief the first chapter of the Bible without worldy athiestic interpretation, then I might as well not be orthodox, not even christian anything.
Your loss.

As Rosehip says, this allegorical interpretation is neither atheist, nor modern. It is quite old. For one thing, how was there literal evening and morning before the creation of the sun?

I could be wrong, but I think Origen asked the same question.





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