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Question: Do you believe that the acount of genesis in the Old testament should be taken literally?
Yes - 54 (15.7%)
No - 133 (38.6%)
both metaphorically and literally - 158 (45.8%)
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Author Topic: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy  (Read 342486 times) Average Rating: 0
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Riddikulus
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« Reply #1170 on: July 16, 2009, 04:23:25 AM »

^^ laugh I rest my case.
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I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
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« Reply #1171 on: July 16, 2009, 04:23:54 AM »

I thought I was in the Orthodox Joke thread for a second, the caricature was dead on...
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As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
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« Reply #1172 on: July 16, 2009, 04:55:02 PM »

I hope that Dan-Romania is kidding! Embarrassed
Probably (s)he doesn't know that Genesis accepts evolution (I'll be back with some verse).

(Boy, I wish I could find some non-Orthodox young-Earth-creationists in Greece. Grin)

GammaRay,

Glad to hear this phenomenon hasn't hit your shores. This young-earth-creationist *militancy* comes from America. (Sorry guys! angel)


there's an issue of the Orthodox Word devoted to this whole issue which gives details about Shestodnev (6 Days) -- a Russian organization that holds conferences every year on the Church's literal viewpoint on Genesis. Speakers include scientists of all kinds from all over the world and theologians. and St. Theophilus of Antioch was the first to give a dating for the earth based on a literal reading of Genesis, followed by many others. They weren't Americans.

if you can read Russian here's a website on Shestodnev http://creatio.orthodoxy.ru/
« Last Edit: July 16, 2009, 04:56:02 PM by jckstraw72 » Logged
Heorhij
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« Reply #1173 on: July 16, 2009, 07:09:19 PM »

I hope that Dan-Romania is kidding! Embarrassed
Probably (s)he doesn't know that Genesis accepts evolution (I'll be back with some verse).

(Boy, I wish I could find some non-Orthodox young-Earth-creationists in Greece. Grin)

GammaRay,

Glad to hear this phenomenon hasn't hit your shores. This young-earth-creationist *militancy* comes from America. (Sorry guys! angel)


there's an issue of the Orthodox Word devoted to this whole issue which gives details about Shestodnev (6 Days) -- a Russian organization that holds conferences every year on the Church's literal viewpoint on Genesis. Speakers include scientists of all kinds from all over the world and theologians. and St. Theophilus of Antioch was the first to give a dating for the earth based on a literal reading of Genesis, followed by many others. They weren't Americans.

if you can read Russian here's a website on Shestodnev http://creatio.orthodoxy.ru/

I certainly can read Russian. There are no biologists who participate in these discussions, and the only "scientist" who seems to be on their board is a "Candidate of Mineralogical Sciences" who has no credentials in the theory of biological evolution whatsoever.
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« Reply #1174 on: July 16, 2009, 07:12:14 PM »

I hope that Dan-Romania is kidding! Embarrassed
Probably (s)he doesn't know that Genesis accepts evolution (I'll be back with some verse).

(Boy, I wish I could find some non-Orthodox young-Earth-creationists in Greece. Grin)

GammaRay,

Glad to hear this phenomenon hasn't hit your shores. This young-earth-creationist *militancy* comes from America. (Sorry guys! angel)


there's an issue of the Orthodox Word devoted to this whole issue which gives details about Shestodnev (6 Days) -- a Russian organization that holds conferences every year on the Church's literal viewpoint on Genesis. Speakers include scientists of all kinds from all over the world and theologians. and St. Theophilus of Antioch was the first to give a dating for the earth based on a literal reading of Genesis, followed by many others. They weren't Americans.

if you can read Russian here's a website on Shestodnev http://creatio.orthodoxy.ru/

I certainly can read Russian. There are no biologists who participate in these discussions, and the only "scientist" who seems to be on their board is a "Candidate of Mineralogical Sciences" who has no credentials in the theory of biological evolution whatsoever.

well i don't know how updated that site is -- I can't read Russian and I'm pretty sure the English part has been exactly the same for several years now, but Fr. Damascene mentions many scientists who took part in the conference last year. I can get the issue later and post their names and branch of science if you want.
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« Reply #1175 on: July 16, 2009, 07:55:06 PM »

I hope that Dan-Romania is kidding! Embarrassed
Probably (s)he doesn't know that Genesis accepts evolution (I'll be back with some verse).

(Boy, I wish I could find some non-Orthodox young-Earth-creationists in Greece. Grin)

GammaRay,

Glad to hear this phenomenon hasn't hit your shores. This young-earth-creationist *militancy* comes from America. (Sorry guys! angel)


there's an issue of the Orthodox Word devoted to this whole issue which gives details about Shestodnev (6 Days) -- a Russian organization that holds conferences every year on the Church's literal viewpoint on Genesis. Speakers include scientists of all kinds from all over the world and theologians. and St. Theophilus of Antioch was the first to give a dating for the earth based on a literal reading of Genesis, followed by many others. They weren't Americans.

if you can read Russian here's a website on Shestodnev http://creatio.orthodoxy.ru/

I certainly can read Russian. There are no biologists who participate in these discussions, and the only "scientist" who seems to be on their board is a "Candidate of Mineralogical Sciences" who has no credentials in the theory of biological evolution whatsoever.

well i don't know how updated that site is -- I can't read Russian and I'm pretty sure the English part has been exactly the same for several years now, but Fr. Damascene mentions many scientists who took part in the conference last year. I can get the issue later and post their names and branch of science if you want.

And this Fr. Damascene is sure they are really scientists, experts?
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« Reply #1176 on: July 16, 2009, 08:49:36 PM »

I hope that Dan-Romania is kidding! Embarrassed
Probably (s)he doesn't know that Genesis accepts evolution (I'll be back with some verse).

(Boy, I wish I could find some non-Orthodox young-Earth-creationists in Greece. Grin)

GammaRay,

Glad to hear this phenomenon hasn't hit your shores. This young-earth-creationist *militancy* comes from America. (Sorry guys! angel)


there's an issue of the Orthodox Word devoted to this whole issue which gives details about Shestodnev (6 Days) -- a Russian organization that holds conferences every year on the Church's literal viewpoint on Genesis. Speakers include scientists of all kinds from all over the world and theologians. and St. Theophilus of Antioch was the first to give a dating for the earth based on a literal reading of Genesis, followed by many others. They weren't Americans.

if you can read Russian here's a website on Shestodnev http://creatio.orthodoxy.ru/

I can't read Russian, but here's an article from Fr. Deacon Andrey Kuraev, a Russian Orthodox believer who accepts the Theory of Evolution and who clearly believes as I do that this false war between Faith and Science is a Protestant/Fundamentalist creation (pardon the pun) imported from America.

Orthodoxy and Creationism: by Deacon Andrew Kuraev

Introduction

Numerous new books have recently been published in Russia that criticize the theory of evolution. For the most part these are the translated works of American Protestant “Creationists.” In so far as Darwinism was well established in schools and institutes as a favorite theory of the Soviets, this rush is understandable. However, we must determine whether the point of view of the Protestant fundamentalists is simply Christian or whether it has sectarian roots not necessarily true to Orthodox thought. These Creationists are not just arguing against an atheistic understanding of the process of evolution but, more generally, against the very possibility of evolution itself. For them, the pre-human world is no older than six literal days. The Earth is incapable of evolutionary development, even in response to a call from the Creator.

This position is not new; it was present in the thought of ancient Greece as well as in India — this yearning to reduce our understanding of matter to a notion of non-being. Only the spirit lives and acts, while the material world is nothing more than shackles for this life of the spirit.

However, in Christian tradition, the fundamental dualism of the philosophy of antiquity (dualism between spirit and matter) was changed to a different one — dualism between the created and the Creator (Who alone is uncreated). This united created matter and created spirit in one category, and, while the created human soul is of prime importance, there is no basis for the denial of the importance of the body. Not only the human soul, or angels, are capable of joyful obedience to the voice of God, but, as the Psalmist says, also the mountains, rivers, and waters. In pagan cosmologies inert matter dampens and counteracts the Spirit, and there can not be a constructive dialogue between them. But in Genesis we see no war between God and chaos, the world being obedient to the Creator, responding to His word, and there is no reason to transpose into the Bible the pagan idea of “theomachistic” matter.

In the Book of Genesis God names every creature and by this naming calls every creature from the abyss of non-being. In the lovely expression of St. Philaret of Moscow, the creative “Word articulates all creatures into being.” What we see here in Genesis is a dialogue. The call produces a response to God’s life-giving action. “The earth germinates, but it does not sprout that which it has but transforms that which it does not have, as much as God gives the strength to act,” wrote St. Basil the Great. The seeds of life are not found in the earth; rather, “God’s word creates beings” and plants these in earth, which, in turn, germinates them. Earth is unable to be fertile by itself, yet there is no reason to downplay its role: “Let the earth bring forth by itself without having any need of help from without.” While life proceeds from earth, the very life-giving ability of matter is a gift of the Creator.

On the one hand, biblical thinking is very much unlike the alchemy of Oparin’s materialism that follows the recipe of the sorcerer in Shakespeare’s Anthony and Cleopatra: “serpent of Egypt is bred now of your mud by the operation of your sun, so is your crocodile.”

On the other hand, unprejudiced reading of Scripture makes one notice a certain degree of activity that created matter has. It is not written that “God created grass,” but, “Let the earth bring forth grass.” Later on, God is depicted not as simply creating life out of nothing but as calling on waters so that they may “bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life.”

Of all the living creatures, God creates only man in a special way, not by way of commanding the earth or the waters. Earth’s ability to respond is apparently finite: earth is unable to bring forth man. The crucial transition between animal and man occurs not by way of God’s command but by His direct act. Even this creation of the “physiological vessel” capable of accommodating human conscience and freedom is not the end of the creation of man: a second stage of the biblical anthropogenesis follows — the “breathing in” of the spirit of life.

The emergence of life in the Book of Genesis is both evolutionary (as earth is producing plants and simple organisms), and also a “leap towards life,” occurring by the order of God.

God calls the Earth to a synergy, to a creativity that is indicative of the God-given internal creative abilities of the Earth. Different stages in the history of Creation open with God’s call upon “earth.” The world, being called to growth and development, acts in cooperation with God. This theme of cooperation of God and His creation appears in the Bible long before the creation of man. The fact that the earth in response to the Word is producing life indicates that it is not merely a lifeless substance, out of which an external action is “molding life,” overcoming inert matter. The Bible is unlike the Vedanta, and matter in it is not a synonym of death and non-being.

This is how St. Basil is describing this creative response in his Homily V: “See how, at this short word, at this brief command, the cold and sterile earth travailed and hastened to bring forth its fruit, as it casts away its sad and dismal covering to clothe itself in a more brilliant robe, proud of its proper adornment and displaying the infinite variety of plants.”

Roots of Western Creationism

Why did a part of the Protestant world resurrect the pagan attitude that matter is “passive” and make this into a principle of its faith? There are, it seems to me, three reasons for that.

1. The first one comes from a peculiar tradition of Western Christianity. A clear biblical depiction of the gradual calling into being of the different levels of being was obscured by an imprecise Latin translation of the phrase from Sirach 18:1 “He that liveth for ever Hath created all things in general,” where the Greek koine means “together,” linked together, but the Latin translation was “simul” in the Vulgate, meaning, “God created everything simultaneously” rather than “everything was created by God.” This quote from the Vulgate is closely linked to resistance against evolutionary views in the West. . . .

St. Augustine was thus already sure that God “created all simultaneously.” This view became part of tradition in Western schools of theology and so was inherited by the Protestants. It is ironic that a phrase from an “uncanonical” book still affects the thinking of those who otherwise reject these books of Scripture.

2. A strong reason is needed for a statement taken from a deuterocanonical book to be accepted by those who treat these books merely as apocryphal. This second reason is found in the Protestant principle of “salvation by faith alone,” rejection of synergy (a biblical word, 1 Cor. 3:9). The result is denial that man takes an active part in his salvation by God. Salvation is seen solely as a gift; man is only notified that his sins are paid for by the sacrifice of Christ.

If even man can not be a creator, can not act in synergy with God, how can this quality exist in the pre-human world? This is how a Seventh-Day Adventist textbook opens its criticism of the theory of evolution: “Even Paul the Apostle could not be righteous through his own efforts. He knew the perfect ideal of the law of God, but could not live accordingly.” Next, it turns out that “Calvary is overturning the theory of evolution in the most decisive manner.” The same textbook states with disapproval that “more and more Christians accept the atheistic evolutionary theory, according to which God has used an evolutionary process in creating the world.” It is unclear why people who accept that “God has used . . .” are called atheists.

3. Yet even this doctrinal reason fails to explain why these anti-evolutionary views, which are in scandalous disagreement with the views of modern science and knowledge, are not just kept as private convictions or in the obscurity of seminaries but are so persistently disseminated. The reason for the persistence of the fundamentalists, which makes this not merely a privately held belief, is social.

It is only in our current situation of fin de siecle (the end of the age) that it became possible to come into open conflict with scientific data. At the end of this century statements contrary to science have become fashionable. Astrologers, fortunetellers, magicians, and other occultists are free to say the most bizarre things. It seems that people are tired of scientific sobriety and responsibility and are ready to accept anything — “Why not?” The purest form of voluntarism and irrationality takes the place of argumentation: “This is what I feel! This is so exciting!” This massive ecstasy by irrationality makes also Protestant literalness completely into sellable goods.

Orthodoxy and Science

Orthodoxy has neither a textual nor a doctrinal basis to reject evolutionism. Neither does it make sense for Orthodox Christians to indulge the current fashion of irrationality (since any irrationality, in the end, will favor occultism and will work against the Church). Before beginning, it should be said that it is more a novelty than a tradition among the Orthodox to disclaim evolution.

First of all, according to the views of the theologians of the very traditionalist Russian Church Abroad, “the Days of creation should be understood not literally (”For a thousand years in Thine eyes, O Lord, are but as yesterday that is past, and as a watch in the night.”) but as periods!”

Secondly, the idea of evolution, given its separation from its atheist interpretation, is discussed quite positively in works by Orthodox authors. Prof. John M. Andreev, having rejected the idea that man evolved from monkey, says: “In everything else, Darwinism does not contradict the biblical teaching on the creation of living things because evolution does not address the question of who created the first animals.”

Professor of the St. Petersburg Theological Academy, Archbishop Michael (Mudyugin) writes: “The process of evolution of the organic world belongs to the category of phenomena in whose description in the Bible and in the pages of any biology textbook it is easy to see an amazing degree of similarity. The biblical terminology itself fits into the same surprising coincidence — it is said: “Let the water bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life.” “Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle and creeping things, and beast of the earth after his kind.” Here the verb “bring forth” points to the link between distinct phases in formation of the animal world, moreover, to the connection between nonliving and living matter.”

Professor Alexis I. Osipov, of the Moscow Theological Academy supposes: “For theology, both the creationist and evolutionary hypotheses are permissible, in principle. That is with the condition that in both cases the Lawgiver and the Creator of the world is God. All existing species He could create either by “days,” at once and in final form, or gradually, in the course of “days” to “bring them forth” from water and earth, from lower forms to the highest by way of laws that He built into nature.”

Professor of St. Vladimir’s Theological Seminary in New York, Fr. Basil Zenkovsky also emphasized the biblical “creative potential” of the earth: “It is clearly stated in the text of the Bible that the Lord gives an order to the earth to act with its own strength . . . This inherent creative activity of nature, “elan vital” (in the expression of Bergson) — the aspiration to life, helps to understand an indisputable fact of evolution of life on earth.”

One of the leading authors of the Journal of the Moscow Patriarchate in the 1960’s and 70’s, Archpriest Nicholas Ivanov was in agreement with the idea of evolutionary development: “The act of the creation of the world and its shaping are manifestations of God’s omnipotence, His will; yet, for Nature, the realization of His will is a long and gradual process, an act of maturation that takes place in time. Numerous transient forms can appear during the process of development, sometimes merely serving as steps in emergence of the more advanced forms, that are linked to eternity.”

Professor N. N. Fioletov, who took part in the Local Council of 1917-1918, thought that “in itself the idea of evolution appears not to be alien to the Christian conscience, or in contradiction with it.”

In 1917, hieromartyr archpriest Michael Cheltsov, touching on the question of the relationship between Christianity and science, wrote: “Deeper and more-thoughtful and spiritual explanation and understanding of many places of the Bible have contributed not a little towards the overcoming of animosity between science and religion. It sufficed to read the biblical account of the creation of the world to realize that the Bible gives no support to understanding of the days of creation as 24-hour intervals, and the wall between biblical accounts and scientific data on the indefinitely long period of Earth’s existence prior to the appearance of mankind collapsed.”

Before that, it was V. S. Solovyev, who showed the way of direct Christian interpretation of the idea of evolution: “If I were facing the task of pointing out parallelisms between modern science and the Mosaic world view, I’d say that his [Moses’s] vision of the origins of life is similar to the theory of directed evolution.”

Vladimir Solovyev clearly expressed the philosophical basis of this theory, developed in biology by L. Berg and Teilhard de Chardin: “The fact that the highest forms and types of creation appear or are revealed after the lowest does not mean that they are the product or creation of the simplest forms. The level of being is not the same as the order of appearance. Higher, more positive, and complete images of being metaphysically existed prior to the lower ones, even when they appear or are revealed after these. This does not deny evolution: evolution can not be denied; it is a fact. But to claim that evolution is able to fully create higher forms from lower, and, in the end, from nothing — means putting logical nonsense under the cover of this fact. Evolution of the lower levels of being can not, by itself, produce the higher ones, yet it produces the material conditions or provides the proper environment for the coming or the revelation of the higher type. Thus, each appearance of the higher level of being is, in a way, a new creation: the type of creation, of which the least of all can be called “creation from nothing.” First of all, the old type is forming as the material basis for the new one, and, second, the proper positive content of the new type does not appear fresh from non-being but merely steps into the new sphere of existence, (in due time) into the world of things. Conditions are the result of the evolution of nature, while that which is revealed comes from God.”

Later on, evolutionary theory was not considered “anti-biblical” or “atheistic” by the philosopher I. N. Ilyin, (The Six Days of Creation. Paris), by the Serb theologians Fr. Stephan Lyashevsky and Prof. Lazarus Milin, by the famous Romanian priest and theologian Demetrius Staniloae, and by Bishop Basil (Rodzianko).
[translator’s note: similarly non-literalist commentary on Genesis was made in the 19th century by St. Philaret (Drozdov), Metropolitan of Moscow.]

Inconsistency of Protestant Creationist Views

Acceptance of the arguments of Protestant Creationists by Protestant-influenced Orthodox preachers is a clear innovation, while a calm attitude towards evolutionism is an established tradition of orthodox academic theology. Perhaps the best known writer who criticized the very idea of evolution was the late hieromonk Fr. Seraphim (Rose).

His first argument: evolution implies a change of generations. A change of generations implies death. The heart of the matter is this: if death existed prior to the creation of man and his fall, we would have to say that death was present in the world prior to human sin. But death is a consequence of sin, and of human sin in particular. As there was no sin in the pre-human world, it is theologically impossible to suggest the presence of death there either.

But if, on the contrary, the pre-human world knew death, this would indicate that “contrary to biblical faith,” the Universe suffered a fall not through man. So, was there death in the pre-human world? I would say that both of these alternative answers are incorrect.

Here we must contemplate the meanings of the words death and sin as applied to man and to animals and plants. The word death is full of uniquely human tragic meaning. Can we really apply this word, with its human implications, to the non-human world? Death is, for humans, a tragedy, something that clearly “should not happen.” It is not surprising that in Russian philosophy the human fear of death is perceived as empirical evidence of our “otherworldly” origin and destination: if man appeared as a result of natural evolution and of the struggle for survival, he would not find so repulsive that which is “natural.” Death has entered the human world through sin — this is certain. Death is evil and was not created by God — this is also an axiom of biblical theology.

It seems to me there is only one possible conclusion that can be drawn from this: the “death” of animals is not similar to human death. If we say “Socrates died,” the meaning and implications of this are quite dissimilar to such expressions as the “death of a dog” or the “death of a star” or the “death of a chair.” Animals terminate their being, “died,” but in application to them, this word is used in a metaphoric sense, and termination of the physiological processes in, say, a monkey, is not the same thing as human death. Animals did cease to exist in the pre-human world. But this is not death — in theology and philosophy we can not discuss the phenomenon of death in the non-human world.

Yes, death is a consequence of sin. But what is sin? It is the violation of the will of the Creator. Can we be sure that the death of animals is a violation of the Creator’s will? Did God create animals for immortality? Was it His will to make them the communicants of eternity? Did He offer them the Bread of Life and the Eucharist?

If not, then the temporal finiteness of animal (and plant, bacterial, and fungal) life is not a violation of the design of the Creator, and is neither a sin nor a distortion of the Creator’s will. If Holy Communion is the only Bread of Life, and yet, obviously, we do not see animals receiving it in churches, this Bread, and this Eternity — are not meant for them. The death of animals is not a violation of the Divine will also because the Bible does not promise eternity to this world in general either; only humans inherit eternity, and the words of the Saviour in Mat. 25:34, “Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world,” are addressed to them, and not to animals or other living beings. The rest will burn away, and if upon the new creation (not resurrection, but creation of the “new earth and new heavens”) God will want to plant animals there too, they will appear as well, but they will not necessarily be the “immortalized” animals of our current world.

God did not create animals for immortality — and this is why there is no violation of the will of God, no sin — in their departure from existence. St. Augustine wrote, “Animals were created mortal.” Prior to him, a similar view is characteristic of St. Methodius of Patara.

“There is usually similarity between the one that produces something and the product. God is immortality, life, and incorruption: a man is a creature of God, and, being produced by immortality, man is immortal as well. This is why God has directly produced man, while He gave orders to the air, earth, and waters to produce the other types of animals . . . and while animals received the ability to live from air, Adam received it from the immortal Being, for He breathed into him the breath of life.”

Not being a violation of the Divine will, the death of animals does not imply some defect in the goodness of the original, created world. It is only after the only creature that truly is made in the image and likeness of the Creator, man, himself steps down to the level of the animal world and makes himself subject to the laws of the struggle for existence, life and death, that are present in the pre-human world — this is when we see the violation of the will of God. It seems that we got used to equalizing ourselves to animals too much — to the extent that non-Christians make out of it reasons to justify their own passions and lawlessness, while Christians are inclined to extend the gifts of the Holy Spirit, granted to them, to the animal world . . .

Besides, can we describe the behavior of animals in terms of “sin” and “virtue”? If the word sin is inapplicable to descriptions of animal life, a related word, death, can not be strictly applied to them either, in the sense derived from human existence.

The Fathers clearly say that sin has entered the world through man and that only man can sin in the world (for the present we are not discussing the angelic beings). St. Methodius asks: “What other evil act, besides what is happening among men, can you find? All the other creatures by necessity obey the Divine will, and none of them can do anything beyond what it was created for.” This means that there is no evil in the animal world, and the death of animals, unless humans cause it, is not an evil, because animals have no freedom in that.

It can be pointed out that the “struggle for survival” can be given, in God’s plan, a positive and pedagogic sense — at least St. Augustine says that witnessing the struggle for life among animals may serve a human as an example of how he himself should struggle for his spiritual salvation.

The second argument of Orthodox anti-evolutionists is built around some patristic texts that deny the existence of sufferings and death in the Garden of Eden. According to patristic tradition, there not only man but also animals were in a blessed state, and there, suffering and death, implied by the process of evolution, are theologically untenable.
This argument against evolution is also weak.

First, the Garden of Eden was certainly not the whole world. Paradise is not the synonym of the world prior to the Fall. Eden did not involve all of the world — rivers that water the Garden, in which man is placed, are flowing from Eden. Neither is that Garden and Eden one and the same thing. “And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed” (Gen. 2:8.).

Linguistic analysis shows that the Hebrew word gan comes from the verb ganon, to protect. Similarly, in English garden — a protected and enclosed place — is related to the verb guard. Other languages also have this link between garden and protection — in French, jardin and the verb garder, to protect, and in German — Garten.

This is not only an enclosed Garden, but the man placed there is given the task of “keeping it” (”And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it,” Gen. 2:15). The garden near Eden is a protected place — to keep against what? To keep the world safe from man, or to keep the man safe from the world? Man gave protection to the garden, or the garden gave protection to man? Eden means “joy”; from it flowed the river for the watering of this “paradise” — the “garden” that was planted at Eden (”paradeison an Eden”), and while the “paradise” was meant for man to live in and to keep him (man), Eden was meant to give joy. Man did not enter Eden but was in a garden by Eden.

So Scripture is not saying that the rest of the world lived according to the laws of the Garden of Eden. And while the Bible is not describing directly the world beyond it, this “kept” zone is perceived in opposition to the wild, unkept one — to the point of the need for protection. From whom was this protection and separation meant? As we know, it did not protect against spiritual danger, such as the Devil. There were perhaps some non-spiritual threats to the newly-created man, for the protection against which he is taken from the rest of the world and placed in a sort of “cradle,” having strict spatial limits according to the four rivers.

It is quite possible that beyond these borders of Eden, the laws of struggle for existence already worked at that time. God is warning man that he shall die if he eats of the tree (”But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die,” Gen 2:17). And if God spoke just so — it means that the experience of death was known to people (more exactly — the observation of the death of others). Man could have been familiar with the meaning of it from observing the death of animals. And this then means that death existed in the pre-human world, in the world of animals.

Yet man was, for the time being, protected from all of it, and only by his sin did he destroy the protection of the Garden of Eden and did the laws of the external world, of Darwinian biology, then gush into the world of man.

The connection of sin and death is dogmatically established by the words of the Apostle Paul (”Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned,” Rom. 5:12). Sin came through man: through human sin, death fell upon humans. However, it does not at all follow from this that prior to Adam’s sin animals were immortal.

Orthodox opponents of evolution do not take another thing into account: Eden is not only limited in space, but also in time. Not only is the Garden of Eden not the whole world, but it was planted after the creation of man. Already after the Six Days, by a special act did God plant the garden at Eden and place there Adam, whom He had created. An already-created man is placed into the specially-planted garden (”And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed,” Gen. 2:8. “And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it,” Gen. 2:15), — man is “taken,” selected (as Levites were “selected” from other tribes), and the garden of Eden is not a place of our origination, but our destination.

According to the Bible, upon his creation, man was taken from the world where he was created; he was moved from nature, into the garden.

Perhaps man needs to be protected from the world in which he was created; perhaps that world contains something destructive, something that is not sin and not moral evil (this is still a pre-Fall world), perhaps there is something in the laws and cycles of the greater world that is good for that world but dangerous for man. Maybe there is something there without which the development of the world all the way to pre-human times was impossible — but that man must be exempt from, now that this type of growth has reached its limits.

The world can not produce new things without the decay of the old. Life can not grow without constant renovation and leaving something outside of its limits, the limits of life. The world knows no building up without destroying. But this is only in the cosmos — and not in the world of man. Man must be protected from this — and such protection can only come from the One above the world, the Creator of it. Having rejected Him, we came down and became part of the world in which all the pagan philosophers saw inevitable unity of good and evil, birth and death. Yes, the human world has radically changed as a result of our sin. But must we believe that the non-human and pre-human world was different prior to that? Could it be that by his sin, Adam erased that border of grace that separated and super-naturally kept him from the rest of the world?

The world into which Adam was placed, the garden at Eden, may have been free from animal death — but this is not necessarily the case with the world from which he was taken. We need not confuse the point of destination with the point of origination. The Serbian theologian Fr. Stephen Lyashevskij wrote that death was absent only in Eden. Upon the creation of man, “a new world has appeared in Paradise, where blood no longer flowed before the face of immortal Adam, and violent death among the animals has disappeared, for God has given everyone in Paradise grass and fruits, and all the animals were obedient to man.”

The atmosphere of grace into which the first man was lead embraced Eden. But we do not know what the world was like beyond the borders of Paradise, as the Bible speaks nothing in detail about the world prior to, or outside of, Eden. Making guesses about this world based on what we think of Eden is hardly correct.

The third argument of the opponents to evolution is based on Gen. 1:30, “And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein [there is] life, [I have given] every green herb for meat: and it was so.” It means, in their eyes, that prior to the human fall, the world had no carnivores, and this means that scientific theories are in direct conflict with the Bible.

The main question here is, where were these words pronounced, and when? The Book of Genesis speaks about the creation of man twice, in the first and the second chapters, and one of the traditionally complicated tasks of biblical exegesis is the coordination of these two stories. Did the Creator speak to Adam prior to creating Eden — or after, and in Paradise? If we take these words as said at Eden, there is no conflict with science, as science can study only the world outside of Eden.

The concept of evolution and the associated disappearance of animals is thus not in conflict with either the letter or the sense of Revelation. The Scriptures do not describe the details of the development of life, and we have no reason to be in conflict with science over this.

The same thing can be said about Church Tradition, and a number of the ideas in the natural philosophy of antiquity and of the Middle Ages that we see in Medieval commentaries on the Six Days have no bearing on our confession of faith. That St. Basil made use of the encyclopedic knowledge of his day and age does not mean that the natural sciences of the forth century must be sanctified by the name of the great saint and be forever enshrined as part of Orthodox theology — rather, that the faith-driven attempts at a “churching” dialogue with the world of secular thought and knowledge is blessed by the example of the great Cappadocian Father. Likewise, St. John of Damascus also included some views of the science of his time in his “Precise Exposition . . . ” — but this only means that Orthodox thought is interested in knowledge of the God-created world as well. From the fact that Fathers did let into their works the data of contemporary science, does not at all follow that we must be enemies to our contemporary science.

As to the details of biogenesis, in the nineteenth century Count A. K. Tolstoy already wrote — (from the “epistle to M. Loginov on Darwinism”)

“Sposob, kak tvoril Sozdatel’
Chto schital On bol’e kstati
Znat’ ne mozhet predsedatel’
Komiteta po pechati.”

(”The way, how the Creator worked, and what He considered to be better, can not be known to the chairman of the censorship committee.”)

Three features are inherent in the biblical account of Creation:

1. Life appears (as the rest of the world) gradually.

2. The world is capable of responding to God’s call.

3. Without the guiding Reason, evolution by itself would lead nowhere.
[translator’s note: Given that God is omnipresent, and the Holy Spirit is "everywhere and fillest all . . . the Giver of Life," the world simply can not exist "by itself," as our world and everything in it exists by God.]

Matter is not eternal, it is created, and thus it needs an external push. And precisely because it is created by this push, matter keeps the creative stimulus. And therefore the world is capable of movement and development. However, the balancing judgment is true and different: although the world is capable of development, it receives the creative impulses from without.

The transition from one kingdom to another in the Bible is depicted as inexplicable by the internal development of the world. This discontinuity is produced by the will of the Creator.

The very essence of the process of the unfolding of Creation remains the same regardless of the speed with which it happens. The view of some, that if we extend the process of Creation in time, “God will become unnecessary” is as naive as that of others who think that creation in anything more than six regular days diminishes the glory of the Creator. We must only remember that nothing stood in the way or limited the creative action, and everything happened according to the will of the Creator. We do not know whether this will consisted in creating the world in one moment, or in six days, or six thousand years, or billions. For “who can number . . . the days of eternity?” (Sirach 1:2).

Conclusion

In Orthodox theology, those questions that are essential and in which no dissent is allowable are put in this particular way: what does it mean, “for the sake of us men and for our salvation?” Besides such dogmas, there are also certain private theological views, theologoumena, that:

* have no direct soteriological application,
* are not explicitly condemned by a Church council,
* are not leading, in their logical development, towards some conflict with established dogmas of the Church teachings on faith, and
* may differ from the opinion of some Fathers yet still have foundation in at least some other testament of the Church Tradition.

Such private theological opinions can conflict with each other. Besides quoting the famous expression of St. Paul in 1 Cor. 11:19 (”For there must also be heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you”), the history of the Church knows a number of such opinions.

Theologically, the idea that evolution is unacceptable to an Orthodox way of thinking can be proven only if it can be shown that the idea that a change of generations existed in the pre-human world outside Eden can damage the conscious participation of a Christian in the salvific Mysteries of the Church.

In accepting a given interpretation of the Scriptures, it is useful to ask the question, why am I leaning towards accepting this interpretation? Also, in rejecting some interpretation, a precise motivation is needed: what do I find unacceptable in it? And in condemnation of some interpretation, the question should be even more precise: what is harmful to the cause of salvation, in the opinion that I am condemning?

Views and opinions of radical creationists can not be accepted because they use scientific data in an arbitrary and non-objective way, by which they produce fair objections from those who are professionally involved in science. There is a real danger here that a biologist, having read some arrogant creationist book, will apply the word “rubbish” to Christianity in general.

An Afterword

I was recently invited to give several lectures at the department of biology at Moscow State University. Normally, I easily establish contact with students during lectures at MSU, but here the coolness of the auditorium surprised me. After the first lecture, I asked my hosts about the reasons for such a strange reception. “Oh, excuse us, Fr. Andrew . . . we didn’t warn you,” they said, “that a week before, some American Baptists were here, and they tried to persuade our audience that there was no evolution and that the world was created in six days. But our students (not to mention professors) noticed how they manipulated and misused scientific data, lining up some evidence and suppressing other. Maybe the students decided that this approach to the data of their science is common to all you Christians — and saw you as a colleague of those American dilettantes.” At the next lecture, I talked about the other way of understanding the first chapters of Genesis, and contact with the audience was regained, and they were very receptive to discussion of the Gospels and Orthodoxy.

So I have a missionary interest in not accepting the views of extreme anti-evolutionists and in trying to find a possible evolutionary understanding of the Six Days. I have no personal problem in believing that God created the world at once or in six days, nor do I have a problem in saying something that is, a priori, unacceptable to an audience (and I have to do this very often), but it is not good pastoral practice to lay on people burdens that are too heavy. Yes, there are, in Christianity, instances of a necessary “sacrifice of reason,” but I think that such a “sacrifice” is better offered to the dogma of the Trinity, rather than to a “dogma” of the precise number of hours of creation.

Finally, it’s useful to look closely at our own, internal motives leading us to accept this or that view. A popular hobby of far too many people in our parishes, monasteries, and even seminaries — is to prove to each other their “arch-Orthodoxy.” Towards this goal, denunciation of “heretic evolutionists” is a very suitable means. But if a man is interested not in acquiring the reputation of a super-Orthodox among like-minded friends but in trying to lead people who are still far from the Church towards Her doorstep — it may be better to reject the joy of feeling one’s own strictness or of finding and condemning another “heretic.”

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/evolution_kuraev.htm
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« Reply #1177 on: July 16, 2009, 09:22:11 PM »

An interesting history of how the Theory of Evolution was received by fundamentalists in the States is Evolution by Edward Larson. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming Americans in general for this present furore between Christian brethren; but where there might have been pockets of fundamentalists in other countries who adhered to a young earth creationism, most Christians accepted the Theory of Evolution as valid science without it impacting upon their faith. However, American fundamentalists seem to have been the ones who have made it their business to make this an issue of testing one's Christianity and in so doing have fabricated a fallacious dichotomy between science and faith. In recent decades, this has had a growing impact in other countries. 

Concerns have been mounting for some years in the UK regarding this fundamentalist push to undermine science, especially in British schools. For anyone interested, this matter is considered in this article; Creationism: bad science, bad religion, bad education. by Derek Gillard, April 2002...  http://www.dg.dial.pipex.com/articles/educ23.shtml





 
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« Reply #1178 on: July 17, 2009, 08:54:47 AM »

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

the chicken egg which was laid by a proto-chicken. 
 Wink


First among chickens eh? Is the proto-chicken the one who I had for dinner last night (because he was certainly first among tasties) or was that his brother?  Grin

In all seriousness, the chicken would have to come first. Going to the sciences, we can prove that DNA transfer cannot start with an egg that exists. The DNA to create the chicken would need to come from a live chicken, which means it would need to have been created. An egg cannot pass DNA on to the next of lineage.




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« Reply #1179 on: July 17, 2009, 03:10:48 PM »

I hope that Dan-Romania is kidding! Embarrassed
Probably (s)he doesn't know that Genesis accepts evolution (I'll be back with some verse).

(Boy, I wish I could find some non-Orthodox young-Earth-creationists in Greece. Grin)

GammaRay,

Glad to hear this phenomenon hasn't hit your shores. This young-earth-creationist *militancy* comes from America. (Sorry guys! angel)


there's an issue of the Orthodox Word devoted to this whole issue which gives details about Shestodnev (6 Days) -- a Russian organization that holds conferences every year on the Church's literal viewpoint on Genesis. Speakers include scientists of all kinds from all over the world and theologians. and St. Theophilus of Antioch was the first to give a dating for the earth based on a literal reading of Genesis, followed by many others. They weren't Americans.

if you can read Russian here's a website on Shestodnev http://creatio.orthodoxy.ru/

I certainly can read Russian. There are no biologists who participate in these discussions, and the only "scientist" who seems to be on their board is a "Candidate of Mineralogical Sciences" who has no credentials in the theory of biological evolution whatsoever.

well i don't know how updated that site is -- I can't read Russian and I'm pretty sure the English part has been exactly the same for several years now, but Fr. Damascene mentions many scientists who took part in the conference last year. I can get the issue later and post their names and branch of science if you want.

And this Fr. Damascene is sure they are really scientists, experts?

i guess they could be completely lying to him ...

the article says that Shestodnev was founded in 2000 with the blessing of His Holiness Alexei II, and has featured talks from speakers from all over the world including doctors and professors of biology (biochemistry, molecular and population genetics, zoology), physics, mathematics, geology, and astronomy who are currently working in secular/scientific institutions, and each year the conference is presided over by hierarchs of the Russian Church.


but anyways my point wasn't how qualified or unqualified the speakers are, but that it is dishonest to caricature creationism as an American fundamentalist phenomenon.   
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« Reply #1180 on: July 17, 2009, 08:37:28 PM »

I hope that Dan-Romania is kidding! Embarrassed
Probably (s)he doesn't know that Genesis accepts evolution (I'll be back with some verse).

(Boy, I wish I could find some non-Orthodox young-Earth-creationists in Greece. Grin)

GammaRay,

Glad to hear this phenomenon hasn't hit your shores. This young-earth-creationist *militancy* comes from America. (Sorry guys! angel)


there's an issue of the Orthodox Word devoted to this whole issue which gives details about Shestodnev (6 Days) -- a Russian organization that holds conferences every year on the Church's literal viewpoint on Genesis. Speakers include scientists of all kinds from all over the world and theologians. and St. Theophilus of Antioch was the first to give a dating for the earth based on a literal reading of Genesis, followed by many others. They weren't Americans.

if you can read Russian here's a website on Shestodnev http://creatio.orthodoxy.ru/

I certainly can read Russian. There are no biologists who participate in these discussions, and the only "scientist" who seems to be on their board is a "Candidate of Mineralogical Sciences" who has no credentials in the theory of biological evolution whatsoever.

well i don't know how updated that site is -- I can't read Russian and I'm pretty sure the English part has been exactly the same for several years now, but Fr. Damascene mentions many scientists who took part in the conference last year. I can get the issue later and post their names and branch of science if you want.

And this Fr. Damascene is sure they are really scientists, experts?

i guess they could be completely lying to him ...

the article says that Shestodnev was founded in 2000 with the blessing of His Holiness Alexei II, and has featured talks from speakers from all over the world including doctors and professors of biology (biochemistry, molecular and population genetics, zoology), physics, mathematics, geology, and astronomy who are currently working in secular/scientific institutions, and each year the conference is presided over by hierarchs of the Russian Church.


but anyways my point wasn't how qualified or unqualified the speakers are, but that it is dishonest to caricature creationism as an American fundamentalist phenomenon.   

Yes, 2000 would sound about right. Seems to be about the time that this American Fundamentalist phenomenom was noticed as gathering momentum in other English-speaking countries, too. The article regarding concerns in Britain is dated 2002.

I sorry you don't like the facts, jckstraw72, but I'm not in the habit of being dishonest and don't appreciate your accusation that I have been. However, I suppose, in mitigation, if you have been witnessing this war over creationism and evolution within American Christendom all your life, you are to be excused for believing that other countries have always mimicked this trend. Whatever you believe, such is not the case. 

Certainly, in my younger days as Anglican, I had never heard of any conflict on this issue; nor had I any knowledge of any such denial of science with any of my Catholic friends and acquaintances. Only when I came into contact with fundamentalist circles, did I encounter this hositility to evolution. All such fundamentalist groups were to be fueled in their fervour by American Fundamentalist literature which started flowing into NZ in the 90s. Up to that point, I can think of very little of such literature, if any, being circulated in New Zealand on this topic. Interestingly, Ken Ham, president of Answers in Genesis, is an Australian school teacher who made a name for himself on the fundamentalist circuits after moving to America in 1987. Around that time, Answers in Genesis was still known as "Creation Science" and was producing a bi-monthly (if I remember correctly) magazine. I actually attended some *lectures* of Ham's in the early 90s. His books were received with great elation that at last there was information on creationism available. I know people who consider his works, and those of other creationists next in authority to the Bible; and unless one believes as they do one is not considered to be a Christian. This "line in the sand" drawn by creationists was not a trend in any other Christian group in NZ or Britain before that. That this attitude has infiltrated Orthodoxy is abhorrent. 

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« Reply #1181 on: July 18, 2009, 08:38:14 AM »

you know what is the most common result i found upon evolution ? missing fossiles :-} ; everybody who says evolution is a fact is a liar;The theory of Evolution is bogus ; Sure it is an interesting and captivating story and opinion , but nothing more.I`m tottaly in for biology , but evolution crosses the line of reality , and bounderies , if a forced theory a deceivement lie.
My friend, it's sad, that the "scientific community" is so stuck upon what Charles Darwin(who btw wrote that all the great minds of the world thought that there was a Creator and a Governor of the Universe....) taught more than one century ago. There can be evolution beyond dogmatic darwinism or neodarwinist synthesis (synthesis with genetics, that is). I mean there can certainly can be an evolutionary creation theory or, more specifically, a Patristic evolutionary creation theory. And it was striking a lot reading that people such as (atheist) evolutionary biologist St. J. Gould thought that macroevolution was/has always been a result of a "saltum", a large "jump" that is .  Smiley He said, basically, that all the species -this is punctuated equilibria theory, I think-  somehow ...appeared through an immense, let's say, a huge evolutionary saltum. And this could not be any closer to Patristic evolutionary creation, of course...  Smiley

Anyways, it's important to know that a lot of Orthodox theologists and professors, such as Fr. N. Loudovikos at the Orthodox Institute of Cambridge, for instance, support their concept of Patristic evolution or evolutionary creation via certain views of , mostly, two Fathers of the Church: and that is St. Basil's the Great's "Hexaemeron" and his younger brother's St. Gregory of Nyssa's work on the same issue(that ensued and followed St. Basil's intepretation). There are actually two most important excerpts that I don't know if I can find in english right now, so that we could have a look.....
 Embarrassed
Oh, and about the Deluge, there are a lot of mythological traditions that say that there was indeed a Flood. Plato, greek mythology and assyrian mythology, for instance...  Interesting, to say the least... Wink  Smiley
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« Reply #1182 on: July 18, 2009, 10:09:12 AM »

I hope that Dan-Romania is kidding! Embarrassed
Probably (s)he doesn't know that Genesis accepts evolution (I'll be back with some verse).

(Boy, I wish I could find some non-Orthodox young-Earth-creationists in Greece. Grin)

GammaRay,

Glad to hear this phenomenon hasn't hit your shores. This young-earth-creationist *militancy* comes from America. (Sorry guys! angel)


there's an issue of the Orthodox Word devoted to this whole issue which gives details about Shestodnev (6 Days) -- a Russian organization that holds conferences every year on the Church's literal viewpoint on Genesis. Speakers include scientists of all kinds from all over the world and theologians. and St. Theophilus of Antioch was the first to give a dating for the earth based on a literal reading of Genesis, followed by many others. They weren't Americans.

if you can read Russian here's a website on Shestodnev http://creatio.orthodoxy.ru/

I certainly can read Russian. There are no biologists who participate in these discussions, and the only "scientist" who seems to be on their board is a "Candidate of Mineralogical Sciences" who has no credentials in the theory of biological evolution whatsoever.

well i don't know how updated that site is -- I can't read Russian and I'm pretty sure the English part has been exactly the same for several years now, but Fr. Damascene mentions many scientists who took part in the conference last year. I can get the issue later and post their names and branch of science if you want.

And this Fr. Damascene is sure they are really scientists, experts?

i guess they could be completely lying to him ...

the article says that Shestodnev was founded in 2000 with the blessing of His Holiness Alexei II, and has featured talks from speakers from all over the world including doctors and professors of biology (biochemistry, molecular and population genetics, zoology), physics, mathematics, geology, and astronomy who are currently working in secular/scientific institutions, and each year the conference is presided over by hierarchs of the Russian Church.


but anyways my point wasn't how qualified or unqualified the speakers are, but that it is dishonest to caricature creationism as an American fundamentalist phenomenon.   

Yes, 2000 would sound about right. Seems to be about the time that this American Fundamentalist phenomenom was noticed as gathering momentum in other English-speaking countries, too. The article regarding concerns in Britain is dated 2002.

I sorry you don't like the facts, jckstraw72, but I'm not in the habit of being dishonest and don't appreciate your accusation that I have been. However, I suppose, in mitigation, if you have been witnessing this war over creationism and evolution within American Christendom all your life, you are to be excused for believing that other countries have always mimicked this trend. Whatever you believe, such is not the case. 

Certainly, in my younger days as Anglican, I had never heard of any conflict on this issue; nor had I any knowledge of any such denial of science with any of my Catholic friends and acquaintances. Only when I came into contact with fundamentalist circles, did I encounter this hositility to evolution. All such fundamentalist groups were to be fueled in their fervour by American Fundamentalist literature which started flowing into NZ in the 90s. Up to that point, I can think of very little of such literature, if any, being circulated in New Zealand on this topic. Interestingly, Ken Ham, president of Answers in Genesis, is an Australian school teacher who made a name for himself on the fundamentalist circuits after moving to America in 1987. Around that time, Answers in Genesis was still known as "Creation Science" and was producing a bi-monthly (if I remember correctly) magazine. I actually attended some *lectures* of Ham's in the early 90s. His books were received with great elation that at last there was information on creationism available. I know people who consider his works, and those of other creationists next in authority to the Bible; and unless one believes as they do one is not considered to be a Christian. This "line in the sand" drawn by creationists was not a trend in any other Christian group in NZ or Britain before that. That this attitude has infiltrated Orthodoxy is abhorrent. 



St. Nektarios, St. John of Kronstadt, St. Justin Popovich, Elder Paisios, St. Barsanuphius of Optina --- which one of them was American?
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« Reply #1183 on: July 18, 2009, 11:25:51 AM »

St. Nektarios, St. John of Kronstadt, St. Justin Popovich, Elder Paisios, St. Barsanuphius of Optina --- which one of them was American?
Did any of them really care to take sides in the creationism/evolution debate, or is this merely a concern you have projected onto them?
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« Reply #1184 on: July 18, 2009, 07:11:56 PM »

I hope that Dan-Romania is kidding! Embarrassed
Probably (s)he doesn't know that Genesis accepts evolution (I'll be back with some verse).

(Boy, I wish I could find some non-Orthodox young-Earth-creationists in Greece. Grin)

GammaRay,

Glad to hear this phenomenon hasn't hit your shores. This young-earth-creationist *militancy* comes from America. (Sorry guys! angel)


there's an issue of the Orthodox Word devoted to this whole issue which gives details about Shestodnev (6 Days) -- a Russian organization that holds conferences every year on the Church's literal viewpoint on Genesis. Speakers include scientists of all kinds from all over the world and theologians. and St. Theophilus of Antioch was the first to give a dating for the earth based on a literal reading of Genesis, followed by many others. They weren't Americans.

if you can read Russian here's a website on Shestodnev http://creatio.orthodoxy.ru/

I certainly can read Russian. There are no biologists who participate in these discussions, and the only "scientist" who seems to be on their board is a "Candidate of Mineralogical Sciences" who has no credentials in the theory of biological evolution whatsoever.

well i don't know how updated that site is -- I can't read Russian and I'm pretty sure the English part has been exactly the same for several years now, but Fr. Damascene mentions many scientists who took part in the conference last year. I can get the issue later and post their names and branch of science if you want.

And this Fr. Damascene is sure they are really scientists, experts?

i guess they could be completely lying to him ...

the article says that Shestodnev was founded in 2000 with the blessing of His Holiness Alexei II, and has featured talks from speakers from all over the world including doctors and professors of biology (biochemistry, molecular and population genetics, zoology), physics, mathematics, geology, and astronomy who are currently working in secular/scientific institutions, and each year the conference is presided over by hierarchs of the Russian Church.


but anyways my point wasn't how qualified or unqualified the speakers are, but that it is dishonest to caricature creationism as an American fundamentalist phenomenon.   

Yes, 2000 would sound about right. Seems to be about the time that this American Fundamentalist phenomenom was noticed as gathering momentum in other English-speaking countries, too. The article regarding concerns in Britain is dated 2002.

I sorry you don't like the facts, jckstraw72, but I'm not in the habit of being dishonest and don't appreciate your accusation that I have been. However, I suppose, in mitigation, if you have been witnessing this war over creationism and evolution within American Christendom all your life, you are to be excused for believing that other countries have always mimicked this trend. Whatever you believe, such is not the case. 

Certainly, in my younger days as Anglican, I had never heard of any conflict on this issue; nor had I any knowledge of any such denial of science with any of my Catholic friends and acquaintances. Only when I came into contact with fundamentalist circles, did I encounter this hositility to evolution. All such fundamentalist groups were to be fueled in their fervour by American Fundamentalist literature which started flowing into NZ in the 90s. Up to that point, I can think of very little of such literature, if any, being circulated in New Zealand on this topic. Interestingly, Ken Ham, president of Answers in Genesis, is an Australian school teacher who made a name for himself on the fundamentalist circuits after moving to America in 1987. Around that time, Answers in Genesis was still known as "Creation Science" and was producing a bi-monthly (if I remember correctly) magazine. I actually attended some *lectures* of Ham's in the early 90s. His books were received with great elation that at last there was information on creationism available. I know people who consider his works, and those of other creationists next in authority to the Bible; and unless one believes as they do one is not considered to be a Christian. This "line in the sand" drawn by creationists was not a trend in any other Christian group in NZ or Britain before that. That this attitude has infiltrated Orthodoxy is abhorrent. 



St. Nektarios, St. John of Kronstadt, St. Justin Popovich, Elder Paisios, St. Barsanuphius of Optina --- which one of them was American?

Again you seem to be missing the point, but then this thread seems to be the place for that. Did any of those you mention above write copious amounts regarding "Creation Science" as an alternative *theory* to combat evolution and were any of them militant Creationists bent on getting their alternative *theory* into as many countries as they could? Did any of them do the *lecture* circuit, and did any of them deny the Christianity of those who disagreed with them? Please read what I said about this American Fundamentalist phenenom again and try this time not to let misplaced nationalistic pride get in the way. I repeat: but where there might have been pockets of fundamentalists in other countries who adhered to a young earth creationism, most Christians accepted the Theory of Evolution as valid science without it impacting upon their faith. However, American fundamentalists seem to have been the ones who have made it their business to make this an issue of testing one's Christianity and in so doing have fabricated a fallacious dichotomy between science and faith. In recent decades, this has had a growing impact in other countries.



 
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« Reply #1185 on: July 19, 2009, 05:35:43 PM »

St. Nektarios, St. John of Kronstadt, St. Justin Popovich, Elder Paisios, St. Barsanuphius of Optina --- which one of them was American?
Did any of them really care to take sides in the creationism/evolution debate, or is this merely a concern you have projected onto them?

well despite your refusal to believe that Orthodox Saints could actually interpret Genesis literally, they did. I have already posted quotes from most of them listed in which they specifically spoke/wrote against evolution. Elder Paisios said the notion that Christ is descendent of non-human life forms is blasphemy, St. Justin Popovich said evolution is new age, St. John of Kronstadt said that every person in the Bible is literally real and that we must look to Tradition for hte answers to our origin, not to the soulless strata of the earth, and i forget what St. Barsanuphius and St. Nektarios had to say specifically but Im pretty sure ive already quoted them somewhere in this thread.


ok heres the quotes that i already posted in this thread:

St. Barsanuphius of Optina: "The English philosopher Darwin created an entire system according to which life is a struggle for existence, a struggle of the strong against the weak, where those that are conquered are doomed to destruction . . . This is already the beginning of a bestial philosophy, and those who come to believe in it wouldn't think twice about killing a man, assaulting a woman, or robbing their closest friend -- and they would do all this calmly, with a full recognition of their right to commit these crimes." From Elder Barsanuphius of Optina, published by St. Herman's

St. Nektarios: "The two volumes of the work Philosphie zoologique are in their entirety intended to uphold the degrading evolutionary theory regarding man. The first volume seeks to prove that the human organism evolved from that of an ape, as a result of chance circumstances. And the second volume seeks to prove that the distinctive excellences of the human mind are nothing but an extension of a power which the animals have, differing only in degree. Having weak and badly set foundations . . . Lamarck claims to prove that in earlier times nature produced through marvelous evolution one species from another, earlier one. He seeks to establish a gradual chain having successive (not contemporaneous) links and thus to produce finally the human species through a metamorphosis that is the reverse of the truth, and not less marvelous than the transformations one reads about in myths!" -- quoted in Constantine Cavarnos' Biological Evolutionism.

This article http://orthodoxnorth.net/evolution_new_fundamentalism_pt_1.htm tells us that St. Justin Popovich identified Darnwin's ideas with new age religion

Elder Paisios: "...And if one thinks that from a human being, the Most Holy Theotokos, Christ was born! Then what we are saying is that a monkey was an ancestor of Christ? What blasphemy!!" --Elder Paisios of Mount Athos --- from the forthcoming updated Genesis, Creation, and Early Man

St. John of Kronstadt:  "The Holy Scriptures speak more truly and more clearly of the world than the world itself or the arrangement of the earthly strata; the scriptures of nature within it, being dead and voiceless, cannot express anything definite. "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?" Were you with God when He created the universe? "Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being His counseller, hath taught Him?" And yet you geologists boast that you have understood the mind of the Lord, in the arrangement of strata, and maintained it in spite of Holy Writ! You believe more in the dead letters of the earthly strata, in the soulless earth, than in the Divinely-inspired words of the great prophet Moses, who saw God." --- My Life in Christ
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« Reply #1186 on: July 19, 2009, 09:01:07 PM »

St. Nektarios, St. John of Kronstadt, St. Justin Popovich, Elder Paisios, St. Barsanuphius of Optina --- which one of them was American?
Did any of them really care to take sides in the creationism/evolution debate, or is this merely a concern you have projected onto them?

well despite your refusal to believe that Orthodox Saints could actually interpret Genesis literally, they did.
Projecting onto me something I never said is not necessary.  You only weaken your argument when you misrepresent your opponent's position like that.  I never stated any disbelief that Orthodox saints could interpret Genesis literally.  All I stated was that I'm not sure we can be so dogmatic as to restrict our interpretation of Genesis solely to the literalist approach that many of the Fathers did use.  If you're going to represent my point of view, make sure you represent it truthfully and accurately.

I have already posted quotes from most of them listed in which they specifically spoke/wrote against evolution. Elder Paisios said the notion that Christ is descendent of non-human life forms is blasphemy, St. Justin Popovich said evolution is new age, St. John of Kronstadt said that every person in the Bible is literally real and that we must look to Tradition for hte answers to our origin, not to the soulless strata of the earth, and i forget what St. Barsanuphius and St. Nektarios had to say specifically but Im pretty sure ive already quoted them somewhere in this thread.


ok heres the quotes that i already posted in this thread:

St. Barsanuphius of Optina: "The English philosopher Darwin created an entire system according to which life is a struggle for existence, a struggle of the strong against the weak, where those that are conquered are doomed to destruction . . . This is already the beginning of a bestial philosophy, and those who come to believe in it wouldn't think twice about killing a man, assaulting a woman, or robbing their closest friend -- and they would do all this calmly, with a full recognition of their right to commit these crimes." From Elder Barsanuphius of Optina, published by St. Herman's

St. Nektarios: "The two volumes of the work Philosphie zoologique are in their entirety intended to uphold the degrading evolutionary theory regarding man. The first volume seeks to prove that the human organism evolved from that of an ape, as a result of chance circumstances. And the second volume seeks to prove that the distinctive excellences of the human mind are nothing but an extension of a power which the animals have, differing only in degree. Having weak and badly set foundations . . . Lamarck claims to prove that in earlier times nature produced through marvelous evolution one species from another, earlier one. He seeks to establish a gradual chain having successive (not contemporaneous) links and thus to produce finally the human species through a metamorphosis that is the reverse of the truth, and not less marvelous than the transformations one reads about in myths!" -- quoted in Constantine Cavarnos' Biological Evolutionism.

This article http://orthodoxnorth.net/evolution_new_fundamentalism_pt_1.htm tells us that St. Justin Popovich identified Darnwin's ideas with new age religion

Elder Paisios: "...And if one thinks that from a human being, the Most Holy Theotokos, Christ was born! Then what we are saying is that a monkey was an ancestor of Christ? What blasphemy!!" --Elder Paisios of Mount Athos --- from the forthcoming updated Genesis, Creation, and Early Man

St. John of Kronstadt:  "The Holy Scriptures speak more truly and more clearly of the world than the world itself or the arrangement of the earthly strata; the scriptures of nature within it, being dead and voiceless, cannot express anything definite. "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?" Were you with God when He created the universe? "Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being His counseller, hath taught Him?" And yet you geologists boast that you have understood the mind of the Lord, in the arrangement of strata, and maintained it in spite of Holy Writ! You believe more in the dead letters of the earthly strata, in the soulless earth, than in the Divinely-inspired words of the great prophet Moses, who saw God." --- My Life in Christ
So what if many of our saints spoke against evolution?  Were they infallible?

I know I'm hammering on a question I've asked many times before, but I'm not yet satisfied with any of the answers you've given.  Besides, you've been beating this dead horse pretty hard; I don't see why I shouldn't join you. Tongue
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« Reply #1187 on: July 20, 2009, 12:53:26 PM »

St. Nektarios, St. John of Kronstadt, St. Justin Popovich, Elder Paisios, St. Barsanuphius of Optina --- which one of them was American?
Did any of them really care to take sides in the creationism/evolution debate, or is this merely a concern you have projected onto them?

well despite your refusal to believe that Orthodox Saints could actually interpret Genesis literally, they did.
Projecting onto me something I never said is not necessary.  You only weaken your argument when you misrepresent your opponent's position like that.  I never stated any disbelief that Orthodox saints could interpret Genesis literally.  All I stated was that I'm not sure we can be so dogmatic as to restrict our interpretation of Genesis solely to the literalist approach that many of the Fathers did use.  If you're going to represent my point of view, make sure you represent it truthfully and accurately.

I have already posted quotes from most of them listed in which they specifically spoke/wrote against evolution. Elder Paisios said the notion that Christ is descendent of non-human life forms is blasphemy, St. Justin Popovich said evolution is new age, St. John of Kronstadt said that every person in the Bible is literally real and that we must look to Tradition for hte answers to our origin, not to the soulless strata of the earth, and i forget what St. Barsanuphius and St. Nektarios had to say specifically but Im pretty sure ive already quoted them somewhere in this thread.


ok heres the quotes that i already posted in this thread:

St. Barsanuphius of Optina: "The English philosopher Darwin created an entire system according to which life is a struggle for existence, a struggle of the strong against the weak, where those that are conquered are doomed to destruction . . . This is already the beginning of a bestial philosophy, and those who come to believe in it wouldn't think twice about killing a man, assaulting a woman, or robbing their closest friend -- and they would do all this calmly, with a full recognition of their right to commit these crimes." From Elder Barsanuphius of Optina, published by St. Herman's

St. Nektarios: "The two volumes of the work Philosphie zoologique are in their entirety intended to uphold the degrading evolutionary theory regarding man. The first volume seeks to prove that the human organism evolved from that of an ape, as a result of chance circumstances. And the second volume seeks to prove that the distinctive excellences of the human mind are nothing but an extension of a power which the animals have, differing only in degree. Having weak and badly set foundations . . . Lamarck claims to prove that in earlier times nature produced through marvelous evolution one species from another, earlier one. He seeks to establish a gradual chain having successive (not contemporaneous) links and thus to produce finally the human species through a metamorphosis that is the reverse of the truth, and not less marvelous than the transformations one reads about in myths!" -- quoted in Constantine Cavarnos' Biological Evolutionism.

This article http://orthodoxnorth.net/evolution_new_fundamentalism_pt_1.htm tells us that St. Justin Popovich identified Darnwin's ideas with new age religion

Elder Paisios: "...And if one thinks that from a human being, the Most Holy Theotokos, Christ was born! Then what we are saying is that a monkey was an ancestor of Christ? What blasphemy!!" --Elder Paisios of Mount Athos --- from the forthcoming updated Genesis, Creation, and Early Man

St. John of Kronstadt:  "The Holy Scriptures speak more truly and more clearly of the world than the world itself or the arrangement of the earthly strata; the scriptures of nature within it, being dead and voiceless, cannot express anything definite. "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?" Were you with God when He created the universe? "Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being His counseller, hath taught Him?" And yet you geologists boast that you have understood the mind of the Lord, in the arrangement of strata, and maintained it in spite of Holy Writ! You believe more in the dead letters of the earthly strata, in the soulless earth, than in the Divinely-inspired words of the great prophet Moses, who saw God." --- My Life in Christ
So what if many of our saints spoke against evolution?  Were they infallible?

I know I'm hammering on a question I've asked many times before, but I'm not yet satisfied with any of the answers you've given.  Besides, you've been beating this dead horse pretty hard; I don't see why I shouldn't join you. Tongue

the point is that Creationism is not an American nor a Protestant phenomenon. Orthodox Saints have been against Evolution since it came out.
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« Reply #1188 on: July 20, 2009, 01:22:43 PM »

Quote
The Hebrew word bara, which we translate as "to create," is used in Genesis I. To determine what this word meant to the ancient Hebrews, Walton examines how it is used in other scriptural contexts. He found that it is used 55 times. Repeatedly, the context in which it is used is that of bringing about new function, or order, to something that pre-existed. It is never unambiguously used in the context of creating some new entity....

The ancient Israelites, Walton says, would have understood Genesis I to be literally true. But it was not the story of the beginning of the cosmos or the beginning of life. It was the story of how all of this came to be ordered by God, functioning in God's kingdom. It was their divinely inspired answer to the question that everyone around them was asking. Although in our materially focused culture we want to know how and when the stuff of the universe originated, this was of no interest to the ancient people; it is likely they never even thought to ask it.

Although many people in today's society insist we take Genesis I literally, Walton says that in the true, literal reading, the story is not about cosmological or biological origins at all. The Bible, he says, is actually silent about this. He tells us that true respect for the authority of Scripture means that we don't demand that it answer questions it was not addressing.
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« Reply #1189 on: July 20, 2009, 01:56:05 PM »

the point is that Creationism is not an American nor a Protestant phenomenon. Orthodox Saints have been against Evolution since it came out.
I don't care if they were saints. If they don't know jack squat about science, then I don't want to hear their opinion on science--and that's all it is.
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« Reply #1190 on: July 20, 2009, 02:03:57 PM »

Quote
Elder Paisios
I think I have read everything that Elder Paisios had said about this issue and in public.  Smiley
Moreover, it is said that, he was then within a state of "holy wrath".
Nevertheless, it is important to notice that elder Paisios spoke against darwinism of a sort, not biological evolution in general. (Evolution is a very-very old concept, that dates back to Aristotle!!!! And some of its supporters were intimately Christian, as Lamarck, if I remember correctly.) And certainly not against evolutionary creation. He said, for example, that God did not use some kind of ape as a first material for building Adam, as he did not need any substitutes(apparently)... Smiley

The fact that "species", let's say, evolve is not sth incompatible with their creation by God. Is this complicated?  Huh Smiley Of course, darwinism has other philosophical implications as well, such as social darwinism of "unfettered" capitalism or even Nazism. But this is another subject...  Wink Smiley
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« Reply #1191 on: July 20, 2009, 02:08:09 PM »

the point is that Creationism is not an American nor a Protestant phenomenon. Orthodox Saints have been against Evolution since it came out.
I don't care if they were saints. If they don't know jack squat about science, then I don't want to hear their opinion on science--and that's all it is.

Bingo.
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« Reply #1192 on: July 20, 2009, 02:15:22 PM »

the point is that Creationism is not an American nor a Protestant phenomenon. Orthodox Saints have been against Evolution since it came out.
I don't care if they were saints. If they don't know jack squat about science, then I don't want to hear their opinion on science--and that's all it is.

Bingo.
This is a difficult issue. And we have to discern pure science from theoretical or humanistic or social(sociology, psychology/psychiatry, economics, political science etc.) science or some scientific theories with certain philosophical(e.g "materialism of physical sciences", malthusian economic theory) basis. And it is an oppurtunity to note, that Fr. J. Romanides always taught, that Orthodox theology is positive science, falls, thus, to the first category. 

Moreover, it is important to know that saint Basil the Great in his interpretation of the Hexaemeron refers to, let's say, research as a means of undestanding the universe that God built, besides revelation through the Scriptures etc. Smiley

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« Reply #1193 on: July 20, 2009, 02:40:58 PM »

the point is that Creationism is not an American nor a Protestant phenomenon. Orthodox Saints have been against Evolution since it came out.
Okay, so some saints with no connection to the American Protestant scene spoke against evolution. Undecided You've never yet satisfactorily answered my question of whether these saints were infallible.  So what do you have to say about that?  Why should their teaching be dogmatically binding upon all Orthodox Christians such that one--in the words of an author you cited earlier on this thread--cannot be an Orthodox Christian and believe in evolution?

Additionally, their mere opposition to evolutionary theory is not yet the pseudo-science of Creationism that American Protestants have advanced to rival evolutionary theory.  I just put that forth to help us all come to a common understanding of what Creationism is and what it is not.
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« Reply #1194 on: July 20, 2009, 02:46:43 PM »

Quote
The Hebrew word bara, which we translate as "to create," is used in Genesis I. To determine what this word meant to the ancient Hebrews, Walton examines how it is used in other scriptural contexts. He found that it is used 55 times. Repeatedly, the context in which it is used is that of bringing about new function, or order, to something that pre-existed. It is never unambiguously used in the context of creating some new entity....

The ancient Israelites, Walton says, would have understood Genesis I to be literally true. But it was not the story of the beginning of the cosmos or the beginning of life. It was the story of how all of this came to be ordered by God, functioning in God's kingdom. It was their divinely inspired answer to the question that everyone around them was asking. Although in our materially focused culture we want to know how and when the stuff of the universe originated, this was of no interest to the ancient people; it is likely they never even thought to ask it.

Although many people in today's society insist we take Genesis I literally, Walton says that in the true, literal reading, the story is not about cosmological or biological origins at all. The Bible, he says, is actually silent about this. He tells us that true respect for the authority of Scripture means that we don't demand that it answer questions it was not addressing.

Correct.

"The creative moments of the direct interference of God into led by Him, and subordinated to those set by Him laws, process, are mentioned in the Bible (in Hebrew) with the Hebrew word “bara,” which is very well translated in Russian with the word “to create,” in opposition to the Hebrew word “asa,” which in Russian means “to design, bring forth.”
In the Biblical narration about the creation of the world the word “bara” is used only thrice, in the meaning “to create from nothing” (as a poet creates his poem not from a pencil and a piece of paper, but from himself):

• In the beginning, when God created the immaterial and material world,
• with the creation of living creatures — the animal world and
• With the creation of the man.

In all the other cases the word “asa,” “to bring forth,” is used. God brought forth, but not created the outward seen sky, brought forth, but not created the heavenly bodies. Having created the living creatures in water, God created, but did not bring forth the beasts of the earth.
In this one should see the indication of the Bible of the process of evolution, the provenance of the beasts of the earth from the water creatures. And, finally, he created, but not brought forth the man in His image, after His likeness. But still concerning this part we should understand that it is our spirit that is created in His image and similarity. What is said about the body is: “The LORD God formed (but not “brought forth”) man of the dust of the ground,” i.e. from the terrestrial elements."

http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/readings/talks/origin.shtml
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« Reply #1195 on: July 20, 2009, 10:16:26 PM »

St. Nektarios, St. John of Kronstadt, St. Justin Popovich, Elder Paisios, St. Barsanuphius of Optina --- which one of them was American?
Did any of them really care to take sides in the creationism/evolution debate, or is this merely a concern you have projected onto them?

well despite your refusal to believe that Orthodox Saints could actually interpret Genesis literally, they did.
Projecting onto me something I never said is not necessary.  You only weaken your argument when you misrepresent your opponent's position like that.  I never stated any disbelief that Orthodox saints could interpret Genesis literally.  All I stated was that I'm not sure we can be so dogmatic as to restrict our interpretation of Genesis solely to the literalist approach that many of the Fathers did use.  If you're going to represent my point of view, make sure you represent it truthfully and accurately.

I have already posted quotes from most of them listed in which they specifically spoke/wrote against evolution. Elder Paisios said the notion that Christ is descendent of non-human life forms is blasphemy, St. Justin Popovich said evolution is new age, St. John of Kronstadt said that every person in the Bible is literally real and that we must look to Tradition for hte answers to our origin, not to the soulless strata of the earth, and i forget what St. Barsanuphius and St. Nektarios had to say specifically but Im pretty sure ive already quoted them somewhere in this thread.


ok heres the quotes that i already posted in this thread:

St. Barsanuphius of Optina: "The English philosopher Darwin created an entire system according to which life is a struggle for existence, a struggle of the strong against the weak, where those that are conquered are doomed to destruction . . . This is already the beginning of a bestial philosophy, and those who come to believe in it wouldn't think twice about killing a man, assaulting a woman, or robbing their closest friend -- and they would do all this calmly, with a full recognition of their right to commit these crimes." From Elder Barsanuphius of Optina, published by St. Herman's

St. Nektarios: "The two volumes of the work Philosphie zoologique are in their entirety intended to uphold the degrading evolutionary theory regarding man. The first volume seeks to prove that the human organism evolved from that of an ape, as a result of chance circumstances. And the second volume seeks to prove that the distinctive excellences of the human mind are nothing but an extension of a power which the animals have, differing only in degree. Having weak and badly set foundations . . . Lamarck claims to prove that in earlier times nature produced through marvelous evolution one species from another, earlier one. He seeks to establish a gradual chain having successive (not contemporaneous) links and thus to produce finally the human species through a metamorphosis that is the reverse of the truth, and not less marvelous than the transformations one reads about in myths!" -- quoted in Constantine Cavarnos' Biological Evolutionism.

This article http://orthodoxnorth.net/evolution_new_fundamentalism_pt_1.htm tells us that St. Justin Popovich identified Darnwin's ideas with new age religion

Elder Paisios: "...And if one thinks that from a human being, the Most Holy Theotokos, Christ was born! Then what we are saying is that a monkey was an ancestor of Christ? What blasphemy!!" --Elder Paisios of Mount Athos --- from the forthcoming updated Genesis, Creation, and Early Man

St. John of Kronstadt:  "The Holy Scriptures speak more truly and more clearly of the world than the world itself or the arrangement of the earthly strata; the scriptures of nature within it, being dead and voiceless, cannot express anything definite. "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?" Were you with God when He created the universe? "Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being His counseller, hath taught Him?" And yet you geologists boast that you have understood the mind of the Lord, in the arrangement of strata, and maintained it in spite of Holy Writ! You believe more in the dead letters of the earthly strata, in the soulless earth, than in the Divinely-inspired words of the great prophet Moses, who saw God." --- My Life in Christ
So what if many of our saints spoke against evolution?  Were they infallible?

I know I'm hammering on a question I've asked many times before, but I'm not yet satisfied with any of the answers you've given.  Besides, you've been beating this dead horse pretty hard; I don't see why I shouldn't join you. Tongue

the point is that Creationism is not an American nor a Protestant phenomenon. Orthodox Saints have been against Evolution since it came out.

Ok - Let me flog this horse again. First of all, to make the Church Fathers followers of modern Creationism is anachronistic. I realise that I'm wasting my time posting the following, but here goes with a brief explanation of the modern American, anti-science, Creationist movement:

As organic evolution became a generally accepted scientific principle and an element in school curricula in the early years of the twentieth century, American Christianity was experiencing the rise of fundamentalism. These two cultural developments collided dramatically in the 1920s as fundamentalist-led movements in twenty states sought to outlaw the teaching of evolution in public schools. Although their challenges to evolutionary theory were rooted in its incompatibility with a literal interpretation of the Bible, Christian critics also made opportunistic use of criticisms raised about the scientific merits of Darwin's theory. The conflict between supporters of evolutionary theory and the theory's fundamentalist opponents reached a high point in 1925, when a Tennessee high school teacher, John Thomas Scopes, confessed to violating that state's new law forbidding the teaching of evolution. The courtroom clash between defense attorney Clarence Darrow and Williams Jennings Bryan ended badly for the creationist movement, despite their guilty verdict, as Bryan—elderly and poorly prepared—failed to present a coherent challenge to the evolutionists.

The creationist movement, as it was now known, received less publicity during the four decades following the Scopes Trial. Nevertheless, a strong constituency opposed to evolution remained among American Christians, especially conservative fundamentalists and evangelicals. For the first time, a significant number of individuals with advanced scientific training became active in the movement. This gave the creationists a more effective voice in criticizing evolutionary theory for its scientific flaws as they organized groups such as the Creation Research Society (founded in 1963). Increasingly, the debate between creationists and evolutionists used the language, credentials, and style of science.

The goal of scientific creationism, as the movement came to be known in the 1970s, differed from that of earlier creationist movements. Rather than trying to outlaw the teaching of evolution, scientific creationists argued for equal curriculum time. By working to demonstrate that evolution and creationism were two competing, legitimate scientific theories, they portrayed the exclusion of creationism from textbooks and classrooms as an act of prejudice rather than a defensible exclusion of religion from scientific education. This tactic brought significant victories. More than twenty state legislatures considered balanced treatment laws, and several passed them. While most of these legal victories were quickly reversed, the debate's impact on textbooks, teachers, and local school boards was subtle and long-lived. Particularly in the South and Midwest, where fundamentalist Christianity had the greatest influence, the argument for a balanced science curriculum swayed classroom content away from the rigorous teaching of evolutionary theory. The universal condemnation of scientific creationism by accepted scientific authorities was labeled intolerance By the creationists.

By the end of the twentieth century, the American-based creationist movement had inspired similar movements in a number of other countries. While evolutionary theory retained the full confidence of practicing scientists, the wider public remained more skeptical, with sizable fractions of the population around the country professing not to accept evolution. Clearly, the persistence of the creationist movement helped this belief survive well beyond the community of fundamentalist Christians.

Bibliography

Godfrey, Laurie R., ed. Scientists Confront Creationism. New York: Norton, 1983.

Numbers, Ronald L. The Creationists: The Evolution of Scientific Creationism. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1993.

———. Darwinism Comes to America. Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press, 1998.

Ruse, Michael, ed. But Is It Science? The Philosophical Question in the Creation/Evolution Controversy. Amherst, N.Y.: Prometheus, 1996.

http://www.answers.com/creationism


The point that I was making is that however many "Creationists" there might have been on other countries in earlier times, the militant, anti-science movement that we are witnessing in the States and now elsewhere is one that is American; is fundamentalist; and in the main Protestant; except for the odd character like Fr Seraphim Rose; whose use of "Creation Science" literature shows him to fall into the category that ytterbiumanalyst mentions. He knew - as did earlier church Fathers - next to nothing about science and fell prey to the Creationist movement as is evidenced by his use of their literature. As such, any opinions he or any of the other fathers you mention might have had on evolution are of little or no value in the discussion as to whether or not Genesis is a scientific explanation of creation and should, therefore, be adherred to as literal. It's not - and it's not surprising that it has come to be catergorised as theological allegory rather than science. To do otherwise, insists that Christians adher to an ancient and erroneous understanding of God's Creation; as once was the case with geocentrism. In the light of modern scientific evidence and interpreting methods, a literal understanding of Genesis is either impossible or God is deceitful for planting false evidence that contradicts revelation.

Quoting from Finding Darwin's God, by Kenneth R. Miller.

I do not dispute that fact that many people find what they believe to be divine revelation preferable to scientific knowledge. Our modern-day creationists are certainly not the first people in history to make that choice, although ironically they may be the first to invoke the name of science itself, as in "scientific creationism" even as they reject science. This lack of honestly is most revealing.

What saddens me is the view of the Creator that their intellectual contortions force them to hold. In order to defend God against the challenge they see from evolution, they have had to make Him into a schemer, a trickster and a charlatan. Their version of God is one who intentionally plants misleading clues beneath our feet and in the heavens themselves. Their version of God is one who has filled the universe with so much bogus evidence that the tools of science can give us nothing more than a phony version of reality. In other words, their God has negated science by rigging the universe with fiction and deception. To embrace that God, we must reject science and worship deception itself.

On a scientific basis, the claims of the creationists are especially easy to refute. Most scientists, quite rightly, have ignored the religious claims of the creationists, but those claims are worth noting if only to emphasize the insidious danger they present to both science and religion. One can, of course, imagine a Creator who could have produced all the illusions that the creationists claim to find in nature. In order to do so, we must simultaneously conclude that science can tell us nothing about nature, and the the Creator to whom many of us pray is inherently deceitful. Such so-called creation science, thoroughly analyzed, corrupts both science and religion, and it deserves a place in the intellectual wastebasket.


Bravo, Professor Miller. I definitely couldn't have said it better myself.

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« Reply #1196 on: July 21, 2009, 06:01:02 PM »

the point is that Creationism is not an American nor a Protestant phenomenon. Orthodox Saints have been against Evolution since it came out.
I don't care if they were saints. If they don't know jack squat about science, then I don't want to hear their opinion on science--and that's all it is.

and you therefore dont care what they have to say about Genesis either, do you?
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« Reply #1197 on: July 21, 2009, 06:02:09 PM »

St. Nektarios, St. John of Kronstadt, St. Justin Popovich, Elder Paisios, St. Barsanuphius of Optina --- which one of them was American?
Did any of them really care to take sides in the creationism/evolution debate, or is this merely a concern you have projected onto them?

well despite your refusal to believe that Orthodox Saints could actually interpret Genesis literally, they did.
Projecting onto me something I never said is not necessary.  You only weaken your argument when you misrepresent your opponent's position like that.  I never stated any disbelief that Orthodox saints could interpret Genesis literally.  All I stated was that I'm not sure we can be so dogmatic as to restrict our interpretation of Genesis solely to the literalist approach that many of the Fathers did use.  If you're going to represent my point of view, make sure you represent it truthfully and accurately.

I have already posted quotes from most of them listed in which they specifically spoke/wrote against evolution. Elder Paisios said the notion that Christ is descendent of non-human life forms is blasphemy, St. Justin Popovich said evolution is new age, St. John of Kronstadt said that every person in the Bible is literally real and that we must look to Tradition for hte answers to our origin, not to the soulless strata of the earth, and i forget what St. Barsanuphius and St. Nektarios had to say specifically but Im pretty sure ive already quoted them somewhere in this thread.


ok heres the quotes that i already posted in this thread:

St. Barsanuphius of Optina: "The English philosopher Darwin created an entire system according to which life is a struggle for existence, a struggle of the strong against the weak, where those that are conquered are doomed to destruction . . . This is already the beginning of a bestial philosophy, and those who come to believe in it wouldn't think twice about killing a man, assaulting a woman, or robbing their closest friend -- and they would do all this calmly, with a full recognition of their right to commit these crimes." From Elder Barsanuphius of Optina, published by St. Herman's

St. Nektarios: "The two volumes of the work Philosphie zoologique are in their entirety intended to uphold the degrading evolutionary theory regarding man. The first volume seeks to prove that the human organism evolved from that of an ape, as a result of chance circumstances. And the second volume seeks to prove that the distinctive excellences of the human mind are nothing but an extension of a power which the animals have, differing only in degree. Having weak and badly set foundations . . . Lamarck claims to prove that in earlier times nature produced through marvelous evolution one species from another, earlier one. He seeks to establish a gradual chain having successive (not contemporaneous) links and thus to produce finally the human species through a metamorphosis that is the reverse of the truth, and not less marvelous than the transformations one reads about in myths!" -- quoted in Constantine Cavarnos' Biological Evolutionism.

This article http://orthodoxnorth.net/evolution_new_fundamentalism_pt_1.htm tells us that St. Justin Popovich identified Darnwin's ideas with new age religion

Elder Paisios: "...And if one thinks that from a human being, the Most Holy Theotokos, Christ was born! Then what we are saying is that a monkey was an ancestor of Christ? What blasphemy!!" --Elder Paisios of Mount Athos --- from the forthcoming updated Genesis, Creation, and Early Man

St. John of Kronstadt:  "The Holy Scriptures speak more truly and more clearly of the world than the world itself or the arrangement of the earthly strata; the scriptures of nature within it, being dead and voiceless, cannot express anything definite. "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?" Were you with God when He created the universe? "Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being His counseller, hath taught Him?" And yet you geologists boast that you have understood the mind of the Lord, in the arrangement of strata, and maintained it in spite of Holy Writ! You believe more in the dead letters of the earthly strata, in the soulless earth, than in the Divinely-inspired words of the great prophet Moses, who saw God." --- My Life in Christ
So what if many of our saints spoke against evolution?  Were they infallible?

I know I'm hammering on a question I've asked many times before, but I'm not yet satisfied with any of the answers you've given.  Besides, you've been beating this dead horse pretty hard; I don't see why I shouldn't join you. Tongue

the point is that Creationism is not an American nor a Protestant phenomenon. Orthodox Saints have been against Evolution since it came out.

Ok - Let me flog this horse again. First of all, to make the Church Fathers followers of modern Creationism is anachronistic. I realise that I'm wasting my time posting the following, but here goes with a brief explanation of the modern American, anti-science, Creationist movement:

As organic evolution became a generally accepted scientific principle and an element in school curricula in the early years of the twentieth century, American Christianity was experiencing the rise of fundamentalism. These two cultural developments collided dramatically in the 1920s as fundamentalist-led movements in twenty states sought to outlaw the teaching of evolution in public schools. Although their challenges to evolutionary theory were rooted in its incompatibility with a literal interpretation of the Bible, Christian critics also made opportunistic use of criticisms raised about the scientific merits of Darwin's theory. The conflict between supporters of evolutionary theory and the theory's fundamentalist opponents reached a high point in 1925, when a Tennessee high school teacher, John Thomas Scopes, confessed to violating that state's new law forbidding the teaching of evolution. The courtroom clash between defense attorney Clarence Darrow and Williams Jennings Bryan ended badly for the creationist movement, despite their guilty verdict, as Bryan—elderly and poorly prepared—failed to present a coherent challenge to the evolutionists.

The creationist movement, as it was now known, received less publicity during the four decades following the Scopes Trial. Nevertheless, a strong constituency opposed to evolution remained among American Christians, especially conservative fundamentalists and evangelicals. For the first time, a significant number of individuals with advanced scientific training became active in the movement. This gave the creationists a more effective voice in criticizing evolutionary theory for its scientific flaws as they organized groups such as the Creation Research Society (founded in 1963). Increasingly, the debate between creationists and evolutionists used the language, credentials, and style of science.

The goal of scientific creationism, as the movement came to be known in the 1970s, differed from that of earlier creationist movements. Rather than trying to outlaw the teaching of evolution, scientific creationists argued for equal curriculum time. By working to demonstrate that evolution and creationism were two competing, legitimate scientific theories, they portrayed the exclusion of creationism from textbooks and classrooms as an act of prejudice rather than a defensible exclusion of religion from scientific education. This tactic brought significant victories. More than twenty state legislatures considered balanced treatment laws, and several passed them. While most of these legal victories were quickly reversed, the debate's impact on textbooks, teachers, and local school boards was subtle and long-lived. Particularly in the South and Midwest, where fundamentalist Christianity had the greatest influence, the argument for a balanced science curriculum swayed classroom content away from the rigorous teaching of evolutionary theory. The universal condemnation of scientific creationism by accepted scientific authorities was labeled intolerance By the creationists.

By the end of the twentieth century, the American-based creationist movement had inspired similar movements in a number of other countries. While evolutionary theory retained the full confidence of practicing scientists, the wider public remained more skeptical, with sizable fractions of the population around the country professing not to accept evolution. Clearly, the persistence of the creationist movement helped this belief survive well beyond the community of fundamentalist Christians.

Bibliography

Godfrey, Laurie R., ed. Scientists Confront Creationism. New York: Norton, 1983.

Numbers, Ronald L. The Creationists: The Evolution of Scientific Creationism. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1993.

———. Darwinism Comes to America. Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press, 1998.

Ruse, Michael, ed. But Is It Science? The Philosophical Question in the Creation/Evolution Controversy. Amherst, N.Y.: Prometheus, 1996.

http://www.answers.com/creationism


The point that I was making is that however many "Creationists" there might have been on other countries in earlier times, the militant, anti-science movement that we are witnessing in the States and now elsewhere is one that is American; is fundamentalist; and in the main Protestant; except for the odd character like Fr Seraphim Rose; whose use of "Creation Science" literature shows him to fall into the category that ytterbiumanalyst mentions. He knew - as did earlier church Fathers - next to nothing about science and fell prey to the Creationist movement as is evidenced by his use of their literature. As such, any opinions he or any of the other fathers you mention might have had on evolution are of little or no value in the discussion as to whether or not Genesis is a scientific explanation of creation and should, therefore, be adherred to as literal. It's not - and it's not surprising that it has come to be catergorised as theological allegory rather than science. To do otherwise, insists that Christians adher to an ancient and erroneous understanding of God's Creation; as once was the case with geocentrism. In the light of modern scientific evidence and interpreting methods, a literal understanding of Genesis is either impossible or God is deceitful for planting false evidence that contradicts revelation.

Quoting from Finding Darwin's God, by Kenneth R. Miller.

I do not dispute that fact that many people find what they believe to be divine revelation preferable to scientific knowledge. Our modern-day creationists are certainly not the first people in history to make that choice, although ironically they may be the first to invoke the name of science itself, as in "scientific creationism" even as they reject science. This lack of honestly is most revealing.

What saddens me is the view of the Creator that their intellectual contortions force them to hold. In order to defend God against the challenge they see from evolution, they have had to make Him into a schemer, a trickster and a charlatan. Their version of God is one who intentionally plants misleading clues beneath our feet and in the heavens themselves. Their version of God is one who has filled the universe with so much bogus evidence that the tools of science can give us nothing more than a phony version of reality. In other words, their God has negated science by rigging the universe with fiction and deception. To embrace that God, we must reject science and worship deception itself.

On a scientific basis, the claims of the creationists are especially easy to refute. Most scientists, quite rightly, have ignored the religious claims of the creationists, but those claims are worth noting if only to emphasize the insidious danger they present to both science and religion. One can, of course, imagine a Creator who could have produced all the illusions that the creationists claim to find in nature. In order to do so, we must simultaneously conclude that science can tell us nothing about nature, and the the Creator to whom many of us pray is inherently deceitful. Such so-called creation science, thoroughly analyzed, corrupts both science and religion, and it deserves a place in the intellectual wastebasket.


Bravo, Professor Miller. I definitely couldn't have said it better myself.



it really doesnt matter if they fit into the mold you call Creationist, they were against evolution and they read Genesis by and large literally. If thats not what you call Creationism then fine, but thems the facts
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« Reply #1198 on: July 21, 2009, 09:42:50 PM »

the point is that Creationism is not an American nor a Protestant phenomenon. Orthodox Saints have been against Evolution since it came out.
I don't care if they were saints. If they don't know jack squat about science, then I don't want to hear their opinion on science--and that's all it is.

and you therefore dont care what they have to say about Genesis either, do you?

But you are misusing their opinions about Genesis. By insisting that we need to take Genesis as literally as many of them did, you are making them the arbitrators of what scientific model we can accept. You wish to negate the advances mankind has made in modern science; specifically the area of biology, while you overlook the unanimous ignorance of the Fathers in the area of cosmology. The Fathers, and later saints, can not be used to speak against the discoveries and advances of science, for they are disqualified by a dearth of knowledge. They are completely unaware of the discoveries and advances we have made; especially in the area of genetics. You are making this an issue of literal interpretation, because you deny an accepted scientific model, and therefore it is your desire to anchor us in the ignorance of our ancestors, simply because they are Fathers or saints.

As ytterbiumanalyst so colourfully states; they don't know jack squat about science. If they ever believed that Scripture was a scientific revelation of natural processes, we know better now. If they were wrong about that, just as they were wrong in arguing the case for geocentricism from Scripture, it really doesn't shake my faith, at all. I accept that they were ignorant of science; their views on Theological issues are another matter.

Quote
it really doesnt matter if they fit into the mold you call Creationist, they were against evolution and they read Genesis by and large literally. If thats not what you call Creationism then fine, but thems the facts

 Huh

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« Reply #1199 on: July 22, 2009, 01:23:46 PM »

and you therefore dont care what they have to say about Genesis either, do you?
Oh, I want to hear what they have to say about Genesis, as I consider the Saints reputable authorities on matters of faith. But unless they have another qualification in an additional area, I consider faith their only area of expertise.
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« Reply #1200 on: July 22, 2009, 03:08:15 PM »

and you therefore dont care what they have to say about Genesis either, do you?
Oh, I want to hear what they have to say about Genesis, as I consider the Saints reputable authorities on matters of faith. But unless they have another qualification in an additional area, I consider faith their only area of expertise.

ok, then you should listen to them when it comes to interpreting Genesis ... and Ive already posted many Saints on the subject, but that seems to have been in large part overlooked.

you can find many Saints quoted here: http://www.creatio.orthodoxy.ru/english/rose_genesis/index.html and I can post more sometime ... im working on job applications right now

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« Reply #1201 on: July 22, 2009, 03:37:49 PM »

the point is that Creationism is not an American nor a Protestant phenomenon. Orthodox Saints have been against Evolution since it came out.
I don't care if they were saints. If they don't know jack squat about science, then I don't want to hear their opinion on science--and that's all it is.

and you therefore dont care what they have to say about Genesis either, do you?

But you are misusing their opinions about Genesis. By insisting that we need to take Genesis as literally as many of them did, you are making them the arbitrators of what scientific model we can accept.


im doing nothing more than making them, and the Church as a whole, the interpreter of Scripture. if that has scientific implications you're uncomfortable with, then i guess thats something you have to work out.
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« Reply #1202 on: July 22, 2009, 03:46:10 PM »

"It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation." (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 1:19–20, Chapt. 19 [AD 408])

"With the scriptures it is a matter of treating about the faith. For that reason, as I have noted repeatedly, if anyone, not understanding the mode of divine eloquence, should find something about these matters [about the physical universe] in our books, or hear of the same from those books, of such a kind that it seems to be at variance with the perceptions of his own rational faculties, let him believe that these other things are in no way necessary to the admonitions or accounts or predictions of the scriptures. In short, it must be said that our authors knew the truth about the nature of the skies, but it was not the intention of the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, to teach men anything that would not be of use to them for their salvation." (ibid, 2:9)
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« Reply #1203 on: July 22, 2009, 04:17:33 PM »

"It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation." (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 1:19–20, Chapt. 19 [AD 408])

"With the scriptures it is a matter of treating about the faith. For that reason, as I have noted repeatedly, if anyone, not understanding the mode of divine eloquence, should find something about these matters [about the physical universe] in our books, or hear of the same from those books, of such a kind that it seems to be at variance with the perceptions of his own rational faculties, let him believe that these other things are in no way necessary to the admonitions or accounts or predictions of the scriptures. In short, it must be said that our authors knew the truth about the nature of the skies, but it was not the intention of the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, to teach men anything that would not be of use to them for their salvation." (ibid, 2:9)

1. and yet St. Augustine interpreted Genesis literally
2. you assume St. Augustine would apply these quotes to "Creationists." Studying biology in what is seen today is one thing -- extrapolating into the distant past based on the present is a philosophy.
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« Reply #1204 on: July 22, 2009, 04:18:37 PM »

and you therefore dont care what they have to say about Genesis either, do you?
Oh, I want to hear what they have to say about Genesis, as I consider the Saints reputable authorities on matters of faith. But unless they have another qualification in an additional area, I consider faith their only area of expertise.
It is true, that the Saints, and according to the spiritual charisma they had, were receiving internal information from God for a great deal of other matters. For example, Elder Porphyrius, was able to conduct charismatic diagnosis, and therefore correct the errors of several doctors who judged superficially at times.
Of course, we are not sure which of the views of the Saints were actually from God and which of them were simple views at topics that were "theologoumena"... And it is true that most Saints had charisma of dicretion of spirits, and, so, they knew which thoughts were from God and which from their own soul and personality, and which from the demonic spirits......  Smiley
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« Reply #1205 on: July 22, 2009, 04:28:01 PM »

and you therefore dont care what they have to say about Genesis either, do you?
Oh, I want to hear what they have to say about Genesis, as I consider the Saints reputable authorities on matters of faith. But unless they have another qualification in an additional area, I consider faith their only area of expertise.
It is true, that the Saints, and according to the spiritual charisma they had, were receiving internal information from God for a great deal of other matters. For example, Elder Porphyrius, was able to conduct charismatic diagnosis, and therefore correct the errors of several doctors who judged superficially at times.
Of course, we are not sure which of the views of the Saints were actually from God and which of them were simple views at topics that were "theologoumena"... And it is true that most Saints had charisma of dicretion of spirits, and, so, they knew which thoughts were from God and which from their own soul and personality, and which from the demonic spirits......  Smiley

we can know what is truly the mind of the Church as opposed to theologumena when the teaching appears similarly in all Fathers who comment on the subject and in all areas of the Church's teachings.
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« Reply #1206 on: July 22, 2009, 05:47:03 PM »

and you therefore dont care what they have to say about Genesis either, do you?
Oh, I want to hear what they have to say about Genesis, as I consider the Saints reputable authorities on matters of faith. But unless they have another qualification in an additional area, I consider faith their only area of expertise.
It is true, that the Saints, and according to the spiritual charisma they had, were receiving internal information from God for a great deal of other matters. For example, Elder Porphyrius, was able to conduct charismatic diagnosis, and therefore correct the errors of several doctors who judged superficially at times.
Of course, we are not sure which of the views of the Saints were actually from God and which of them were simple views at topics that were "theologoumena"... And it is true that most Saints had charisma of dicretion of spirits, and, so, they knew which thoughts were from God and which from their own soul and personality, and which from the demonic spirits......  Smiley

we can know what is truly the mind of the Church as opposed to theologumena when the teaching appears similarly in all Fathers who comment on the subject and in all areas of the Church's teachings.
Where can we find this teaching (i.e., the Fathers, when speaking in consensus, constitute the "mind of the Church") in the doctrines of the Fathers?
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« Reply #1207 on: July 22, 2009, 05:48:33 PM »

"It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation." (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 1:19–20, Chapt. 19 [AD 408])

"With the scriptures it is a matter of treating about the faith. For that reason, as I have noted repeatedly, if anyone, not understanding the mode of divine eloquence, should find something about these matters [about the physical universe] in our books, or hear of the same from those books, of such a kind that it seems to be at variance with the perceptions of his own rational faculties, let him believe that these other things are in no way necessary to the admonitions or accounts or predictions of the scriptures. In short, it must be said that our authors knew the truth about the nature of the skies, but it was not the intention of the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, to teach men anything that would not be of use to them for their salvation." (ibid, 2:9)

1. and yet St. Augustine interpreted Genesis literally
And, according to the statements he made in the above quotes, he did so while taking great care to not make statements that the scientists of his day could easily prove foolish.
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« Reply #1208 on: July 22, 2009, 06:25:33 PM »

the point is that Creationism is not an American nor a Protestant phenomenon. Orthodox Saints have been against Evolution since it came out.
I don't care if they were saints. If they don't know jack squat about science, then I don't want to hear their opinion on science--and that's all it is.

and you therefore dont care what they have to say about Genesis either, do you?

But you are misusing their opinions about Genesis. By insisting that we need to take Genesis as literally as many of them did, you are making them the arbitrators of what scientific model we can accept.


im doing nothing more than making them, and the Church as a whole, the interpreter of Scripture. if that has scientific implications you're uncomfortable with, then i guess thats something you have to work out.

I'm far from uncomfortable with the scientific implications. Smiley
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« Reply #1209 on: July 22, 2009, 06:31:03 PM »

"It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation." (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 1:19–20, Chapt. 19 [AD 408])

"With the scriptures it is a matter of treating about the faith. For that reason, as I have noted repeatedly, if anyone, not understanding the mode of divine eloquence, should find something about these matters [about the physical universe] in our books, or hear of the same from those books, of such a kind that it seems to be at variance with the perceptions of his own rational faculties, let him believe that these other things are in no way necessary to the admonitions or accounts or predictions of the scriptures. In short, it must be said that our authors knew the truth about the nature of the skies, but it was not the intention of the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, to teach men anything that would not be of use to them for their salvation." (ibid, 2:9)

1. and yet St. Augustine interpreted Genesis literally
2. you assume St. Augustine would apply these quotes to "Creationists." Studying biology in what is seen today is one thing -- extrapolating into the distant past based on the present is a philosophy.

No, St Augustine did not interpret Genesis literally. And please don't say that he just didn't interpret the six days as literal days, because that means he didn't interpret Genesis literally. St Augustine would apply these quotes to anyone making fools of themselves in speaking idiotically about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. Too many, if not all, modern Creationists certainly would qualify on that score. 

Forgive me if I cause offence, but quite honestly it seems to me that this decomposing equine should be laid to rest.  Wink
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« Reply #1210 on: July 22, 2009, 06:47:51 PM »

"It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation." (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 1:19–20, Chapt. 19 [AD 408])

"With the scriptures it is a matter of treating about the faith. For that reason, as I have noted repeatedly, if anyone, not understanding the mode of divine eloquence, should find something about these matters [about the physical universe] in our books, or hear of the same from those books, of such a kind that it seems to be at variance with the perceptions of his own rational faculties, let him believe that these other things are in no way necessary to the admonitions or accounts or predictions of the scriptures. In short, it must be said that our authors knew the truth about the nature of the skies, but it was not the intention of the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, to teach men anything that would not be of use to them for their salvation." (ibid, 2:9)

1. and yet St. Augustine interpreted Genesis literally
And, according to the statements he made in the above quotes, he did so while taking great care to not make statements that the scientists of his day could easily prove foolish.

It does seem that St. Augustine was ahead of his time when he described his philosophy on Biblical interpretation; particularly when the inferences appear to conflict with science and reason.
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Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
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« Reply #1211 on: July 23, 2009, 05:06:34 PM »

and you therefore dont care what they have to say about Genesis either, do you?
Oh, I want to hear what they have to say about Genesis, as I consider the Saints reputable authorities on matters of faith. But unless they have another qualification in an additional area, I consider faith their only area of expertise.
It is true, that the Saints, and according to the spiritual charisma they had, were receiving internal information from God for a great deal of other matters. For example, Elder Porphyrius, was able to conduct charismatic diagnosis, and therefore correct the errors of several doctors who judged superficially at times.
Of course, we are not sure which of the views of the Saints were actually from God and which of them were simple views at topics that were "theologoumena"... And it is true that most Saints had charisma of dicretion of spirits, and, so, they knew which thoughts were from God and which from their own soul and personality, and which from the demonic spirits......  Smiley

we can know what is truly the mind of the Church as opposed to theologumena when the teaching appears similarly in all Fathers who comment on the subject and in all areas of the Church's teachings.
Where can we find this teaching (i.e., the Fathers, when speaking in consensus, constitute the "mind of the Church") in the doctrines of the Fathers?

St. Basil's Hexaemeron, St. Ephrem's Hexaemeron, St. Ambrose's Hexaemeron, St. Augustine's the City of God, St. John Chrysostom's homilies on Genesis, and lots of other places. References to Genesis are scattered all throughout the ECF's writings. They reference Genesis on many subjects.
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« Reply #1212 on: July 23, 2009, 05:15:48 PM »

"It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation." (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 1:19–20, Chapt. 19 [AD 408])

"With the scriptures it is a matter of treating about the faith. For that reason, as I have noted repeatedly, if anyone, not understanding the mode of divine eloquence, should find something about these matters [about the physical universe] in our books, or hear of the same from those books, of such a kind that it seems to be at variance with the perceptions of his own rational faculties, let him believe that these other things are in no way necessary to the admonitions or accounts or predictions of the scriptures. In short, it must be said that our authors knew the truth about the nature of the skies, but it was not the intention of the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, to teach men anything that would not be of use to them for their salvation." (ibid, 2:9)

1. and yet St. Augustine interpreted Genesis literally
2. you assume St. Augustine would apply these quotes to "Creationists." Studying biology in what is seen today is one thing -- extrapolating into the distant past based on the present is a philosophy.

No, St Augustine did not interpret Genesis literally. And please don't say that he just didn't interpret the six days as literal days, because that means he didn't interpret Genesis literally. St Augustine would apply these quotes to anyone making fools of themselves in speaking idiotically about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. Too many, if not all, modern Creationists certainly would qualify on that score. 

Forgive me if I cause offence, but quite honestly it seems to me that this decomposing equine should be laid to rest.  Wink

St. Augustine most certainly did interpret Genesis literally. You continually point to one very minor aspect, bc thats all you can cling to when it comes to the Fathers. If you want to honestly look at what St. Augustine believed you need to look at his entire view of Genesis, not just one minor aspect.

He said:

Quote
In vain, then, do some babble with most empty presumption, saying that Egypt has understood the reckoning of the stars for more than a hundred thousand years. For in what books have they collected that number who learned letters from Isis their mistress, not much more than two thousand years ago? Varro, who has declared this, is no small authority in history, and it does not disagree with the truth of the divine books. For as it is not yet six thousand years since the first man, who is called Adam, are not those to be ridiculed rather than refuted who try to persuade us of anything regarding a space of time so different from, and contrary to, the ascertained truth? For what historian of the past should we credit more than him who has also predicted things to come which we now see fulfilled? City of God, Book XVIII.XL 

see? he says no historian of the past (including biological history) is more trustworthy than Moses. He says stick to the timeline give in the ascertained truth. His timeline differed from the other Fathers by 6 or 7 days, not the billions of years ya'll propose.



and why do you keep referring back to St. Augustine's quote about science, yet keep telling us that the Fathers aren't an authority on science?! make up your mind! do you care what the Fathers think about Genesis or not?!

he also says:
Quote
St. Augustine, City of God, Book XIII.XXI
On this account some allegorize all that concerns Paradise itself, where the first men, the parents of the human race, are, according to the truth of holy Scripture, recorded to have been; and they understand all its trees and fruit-bearing plants as virtues and habits of life, as if they had no existence in the external world, but were only so spoken of or related for the sake of spiritual meanings. As if there could not be a real terrestrial Paradise! As if there never existed these two women, Sarah and Hagar, nor the two sons who were born to Abraham, the one of the bond woman, the other of the free, because the apostle says that in them the two covenants were prefigured; or as if water never flowed from the rock when Moses struck it, because therein Christ can be seen in a figure, as the same apostle says, "Now that rock was Christ!" No one, then, denies that Paradise may signify the life of the blessed; its four rivers, the four virtues, prudence, fortitude, temperance, and justice; its trees, all useful knowledge; its fruits, the customs of the godly; its tree of life, wisdom herself, the mother of all good; and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the experience of a broken commandment. The punishment which God appointed was in itself, a just, and therefore a good thing; but man's experience of it is not good.
. . .These and similar allegorical interpretations may be suitably put upon Paradise without giving offence to any one, while yet we believe the strict truth of the history, confirmed by its circumstantial narrative of facts.

your evolutionary view is impossible to harmonize with St. Augustine

some more:

Quote
so we cannot believe that Adam was deceived, and supposed the devil's word to be truth, and therefore transgressed God's law, but that he by the drawings of kindred yielded to the woman, the husband to the wife, the one human being to the only other human being. City of God, Book XIV.XII


.... Adam and Eve were literally the only human beings alive at the time they were created.

Quote
Augustine, City of God, Book XIII.XII
When, therefore, it is asked what death it was with which God threatened our first parents if they should transgress the commandment they had received from Him, and should fail to preserve their obedience,—whether it was the death of soul, or of body, or of the whole man, or that which is called second death,—we must answer, It is all. For the first consists of two; the second is the complete death, which consists of all. For, as the whole earth consists of many lands, and the Church universal of many churches, so death universal consists of all deaths.

Quote
For the body would not return to the earth from which it was made, save only by the death proper to itself, which occurs when it is forsaken of the soul, its life. And therefore it is agreed among all Christians who truthfully hold the catholic faith, that we are subject to the death of the body, not by the law of nature, by which God ordained no death for man, but by His righteous infliction on account of sin; for God, taking vengeance on sin, said to the man, in whom we all then were, "Dust you are, and unto dust shall you return." Book XIII.XV

bodily death occurs because of sin, not because God created the evolutionary process ...

Quote
St. Augustine, City of God, Book XII.XVIII
For there is nothing so social by nature, so unsocial by its corruption, as this race. And human nature has nothing more appropriate, either for the prevention of discord, or for the healing of it, where it exists, than the remembrance of that first parent of us all, whom God was pleased to create alone, that all men might be derived from one, and that they might thus be admonished to preserve unity among their whole multitude. But from the fact that the woman was made for him from his side, it was plainly meant that we should learn how dear the bond between man and wife should be.

Quote
St. Augustine, City of God, Book XII.24
For we are not to conceive of this work in a carnal fashion, as if God wrought as we commonly see artisans, who use their hands, and material furnished to them, that by their artistic skill they may fashion some material object. God's hand is God's power; and He, working invisibly, effects visible results. But this seems fabulous rather than true to men, who measure by customary and everyday works the power and wisdom of God, whereby He understands and produces without seeds even seeds themselves; and because they cannot understand the things which at the beginning were created, they are sceptical regarding them—as if the very things which they do know about human propagation, conceptions and births, would seem less incredible if told to those who had no experience of them; though these very things, too, are attributed by many rather to physical and natural causes than to the work of the divine mind.
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« Reply #1213 on: July 23, 2009, 05:55:51 PM »

"It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation." (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 1:19–20, Chapt. 19 [AD 408])

"With the scriptures it is a matter of treating about the faith. For that reason, as I have noted repeatedly, if anyone, not understanding the mode of divine eloquence, should find something about these matters [about the physical universe] in our books, or hear of the same from those books, of such a kind that it seems to be at variance with the perceptions of his own rational faculties, let him believe that these other things are in no way necessary to the admonitions or accounts or predictions of the scriptures. In short, it must be said that our authors knew the truth about the nature of the skies, but it was not the intention of the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, to teach men anything that would not be of use to them for their salvation." (ibid, 2:9)

1. and yet St. Augustine interpreted Genesis literally
2. you assume St. Augustine would apply these quotes to "Creationists." Studying biology in what is seen today is one thing -- extrapolating into the distant past based on the present is a philosophy.

No, St Augustine did not interpret Genesis literally. And please don't say that he just didn't interpret the six days as literal days, because that means he didn't interpret Genesis literally. St Augustine would apply these quotes to anyone making fools of themselves in speaking idiotically about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. Too many, if not all, modern Creationists certainly would qualify on that score. 

Forgive me if I cause offence, but quite honestly it seems to me that this decomposing equine should be laid to rest.  Wink

you merely assume that St. Augustine would agree with you about Creationists. However, since evolution involves many assumptions, and it has never been observed on the marco-scale, it is a philosophy, not a science.

Dating methods are flawed because they must assume the amount of the daughter element present in the object being dated at its creation, and they must also assume a constant rate of decay. It is also an assumption that micro-changes will necessarily compound into macro-changes, such as all living things coming from one common ancestor. no such thing has ever been observed.

even some scientists are honest enough to admit the assumptions and absurdities:

Quote
"We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counterintuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door." Richard Lewontin, "Billions and Billions of Demons," in the New York Review of Books, January 9, 1997, pp. 28, 31

Quote
Stephen Jay Gould, speaking of Charles Lyell who first proposed uniformitarianism, "Lyell relied upon true bits of cunning to establish his uniformitarian view as the only true geology ... Lyell imposed his imagination upon the evidence" (Gould, Ever Since Darwin, pp. 149-150)

Quote
leading British evolutionary biologist, Prof. L. Harrison Matthews, in a foreword to the 1971 edition of Darwin's Origin of Species: "The fact of evolution is the backbone of biology, and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on an unproven theory -- is it then a science or a faith? ... Belief in evolution is thus exactly parallel to belief in special creation -- both are concepts which believers know to be true but neither, up to the present, has been capable of proof."
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Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #1214 on: July 23, 2009, 06:06:52 PM »

and you therefore dont care what they have to say about Genesis either, do you?
Oh, I want to hear what they have to say about Genesis, as I consider the Saints reputable authorities on matters of faith. But unless they have another qualification in an additional area, I consider faith their only area of expertise.
It is true, that the Saints, and according to the spiritual charisma they had, were receiving internal information from God for a great deal of other matters. For example, Elder Porphyrius, was able to conduct charismatic diagnosis, and therefore correct the errors of several doctors who judged superficially at times.
Of course, we are not sure which of the views of the Saints were actually from God and which of them were simple views at topics that were "theologoumena"... And it is true that most Saints had charisma of dicretion of spirits, and, so, they knew which thoughts were from God and which from their own soul and personality, and which from the demonic spirits......  Smiley

we can know what is truly the mind of the Church as opposed to theologumena when the teaching appears similarly in all Fathers who comment on the subject and in all areas of the Church's teachings.
Where can we find this teaching (i.e., the Fathers, when speaking in consensus, constitute the "mind of the Church") in the doctrines of the Fathers?

St. Basil's Hexaemeron, St. Ephrem's Hexaemeron, St. Ambrose's Hexaemeron, St. Augustine's the City of God, St. John Chrysostom's homilies on Genesis, and lots of other places. References to Genesis are scattered all throughout the ECF's writings. They reference Genesis on many subjects.
You totally missed my point.  I asked you where you can find in the Fathers the teaching that the Fathers, when speaking in consensus, constitute the "mind of the Church".
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