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Question: Do you believe that the acount of genesis in the Old testament should be taken literally?
Yes - 53 (15.9%)
No - 127 (38%)
both metaphorically and literally - 154 (46.1%)
Total Voters: 334

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Author Topic: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy  (Read 296616 times) Average Rating: 0
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jckstraw72
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« Reply #1125 on: July 07, 2009, 04:37:37 PM »

what reason do you have to believe that the Fathers interpreted Genesis according to their science of their day rather than according to divine illumination? im honestly curious about this. are there other instances where such a uniform teaching is questioned on this basis or a similar basis?
I can easily spot mistakes in the Bible. The first thing that comes to my mind is Joshua's story, where 'the Sun stood above the Earth'. Some may say that this is just an artistic view, I say it's an anti-heliocentric one. Of course, I didn't expect people in Ancient Israel to be aware of Heliocentrism.

i think your last sentence makes a crucial point -- the story in Joshua is from Joshua's POV and for all he knew the sun was standing still. But God was the only observer of creation, and Genesis is what he told Moses to write, thus its not from a human POV but rather from God's absolute POV.
I understand that Genesis was borne out of a tradition that had been passed on orally within the Hebrew peoples as they inherited it from Abraham's ancestors.  To say that it's based on what God told Moses to write may be quite misleading--much like the intrinsic belief among many Protestants that the Scriptures were uttered orally by God to the biblical authors (both Old and New Testament) and that these authors therefore made no real participation in what they wrote.  In fact, this argument is often made against the truth of any concept of "Tradition".

im thinking along these lines:

St. Ambrose writes:

Quote
Moses "spoke to God the Most High, not in a vision nor in dreams, but mouth to mouth" (Numbers 12:6-8). Plainly and clearly, not by figures nor by riddles, there was bestowed on him the gift of the Divine presence. And so Moses opened his mouth and uttered what the Lord spoke within him, according to the promise He made to him when He directed him to go to King Pharaoh: "Go therefore and I will open thy mouth and instruct thee what thou shouldest speak" (Ex. 4:12). For, if he had already accepted from God what he should say concerning the liberation of the people, how much more should you accept what He should say concerning heaven? Therefore, "not in the persuasive words of wisdom," not in philosophical fallacies, "but in the demonstration of the Spirit and power" (1 Cor. 2:4), he has ventured to say as if he were a witness of the Divine work: "In the beginning God created heaven and earth."

In a similar vein, St. Basil writes at the very beginning of his Hexaemeron:

Quote
This man, who is made equal to the angels, being considered worthy of the sight of God face to face, reports to us those things which he heard from God.

St. John Chrysostom says that, just as St. John the Theologian was a prophet of things of the fu-ture, Moses was a prophet of things of the past. He says the following:

Quote
All the other prophets spoke either of what was to occur after a long time or of what was about to happen then; but he, the blessed (Moses), who lived many generations after (the creation of the world), was vouchsafed by the guidance of the right hand of the Most High to utter what had been done by the Lord before his own birth. It is for this reason that he begins to speak thus: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth," as if calling out to us all with a loud voice: it is not by the instruction of men that I say this; He Who called them (heaven and earth) out of non-being into being - it is He Who has roused my tongue to relate of them. And therefore I entreat you, let us pay heed to these words as if we heard not Moses but the very Lord of the universe Who speaks through the tongue of Moses, and let us take leave for good of our own opinions.

In his commentary on the Fifth Day of Creation, St. John Chrysostom emphasizes the preciseness and accurateness of the order in which the creation is described.

Quote
The blessed Moses, instructed by the Spirit of God, teaches us with such detail ... so that we might clearly know both the order and the way of the creation of each thing. If God had not been concerned for our salvation and had not guided the tongue of the Prophet, it would have been sufficient to say that God created the heaven, and the earth, and the sea, and living creatures, without indicating either the order of the days or what was created earlier and what later.... But he distinguishes so clearly both the order of creation and the number of days, and instructs us about everything with great condescension, in order that we, coming to know the whole truth, would no longer heed the false teachings of those who speak of everything according to their own reasonings, but might comprehend the unutterable power of our Creator.

And all this is related to the reality of biological evolution, or of the quarks, or of the electromagnetic field... how?

im talking about Scripture .... and i was replying to Gamma Ray saying that its misleading to say that God spoke Genesis to Moses.
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« Reply #1126 on: July 07, 2009, 04:46:55 PM »

what reason do you have to believe that the Fathers interpreted Genesis according to their science of their day rather than according to divine illumination? im honestly curious about this. are there other instances where such a uniform teaching is questioned on this basis or a similar basis?
I can easily spot mistakes in the Bible. The first thing that comes to my mind is Joshua's story, where 'the Sun stood above the Earth'. Some may say that this is just an artistic view, I say it's an anti-heliocentric one. Of course, I didn't expect people in Ancient Israel to be aware of Heliocentrism.

i think your last sentence makes a crucial point -- the story in Joshua is from Joshua's POV and for all he knew the sun was standing still. But God was the only observer of creation, and Genesis is what he told Moses to write, thus its not from a human POV but rather from God's absolute POV.
I understand that Genesis was borne out of a tradition that had been passed on orally within the Hebrew peoples as they inherited it from Abraham's ancestors.  To say that it's based on what God told Moses to write may be quite misleading--much like the intrinsic belief among many Protestants that the Scriptures were uttered orally by God to the biblical authors (both Old and New Testament) and that these authors therefore made no real participation in what they wrote.  In fact, this argument is often made against the truth of any concept of "Tradition".

im thinking along these lines:

St. Ambrose writes:

Quote
Moses "spoke to God the Most High, not in a vision nor in dreams, but mouth to mouth" (Numbers 12:6-8). Plainly and clearly, not by figures nor by riddles, there was bestowed on him the gift of the Divine presence. And so Moses opened his mouth and uttered what the Lord spoke within him, according to the promise He made to him when He directed him to go to King Pharaoh: "Go therefore and I will open thy mouth and instruct thee what thou shouldest speak" (Ex. 4:12). For, if he had already accepted from God what he should say concerning the liberation of the people, how much more should you accept what He should say concerning heaven? Therefore, "not in the persuasive words of wisdom," not in philosophical fallacies, "but in the demonstration of the Spirit and power" (1 Cor. 2:4), he has ventured to say as if he were a witness of the Divine work: "In the beginning God created heaven and earth."

In a similar vein, St. Basil writes at the very beginning of his Hexaemeron:

Quote
This man, who is made equal to the angels, being considered worthy of the sight of God face to face, reports to us those things which he heard from God.

St. John Chrysostom says that, just as St. John the Theologian was a prophet of things of the fu-ture, Moses was a prophet of things of the past. He says the following:

Quote
All the other prophets spoke either of what was to occur after a long time or of what was about to happen then; but he, the blessed (Moses), who lived many generations after (the creation of the world), was vouchsafed by the guidance of the right hand of the Most High to utter what had been done by the Lord before his own birth. It is for this reason that he begins to speak thus: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth," as if calling out to us all with a loud voice: it is not by the instruction of men that I say this; He Who called them (heaven and earth) out of non-being into being - it is He Who has roused my tongue to relate of them. And therefore I entreat you, let us pay heed to these words as if we heard not Moses but the very Lord of the universe Who speaks through the tongue of Moses, and let us take leave for good of our own opinions.

In his commentary on the Fifth Day of Creation, St. John Chrysostom emphasizes the preciseness and accurateness of the order in which the creation is described.

Quote
The blessed Moses, instructed by the Spirit of God, teaches us with such detail ... so that we might clearly know both the order and the way of the creation of each thing. If God had not been concerned for our salvation and had not guided the tongue of the Prophet, it would have been sufficient to say that God created the heaven, and the earth, and the sea, and living creatures, without indicating either the order of the days or what was created earlier and what later.... But he distinguishes so clearly both the order of creation and the number of days, and instructs us about everything with great condescension, in order that we, coming to know the whole truth, would no longer heed the false teachings of those who speak of everything according to their own reasonings, but might comprehend the unutterable power of our Creator.

And all this is related to the reality of biological evolution, or of the quarks, or of the electromagnetic field... how?

im talking about Scripture .... and i was replying to Gamma Ray saying that its misleading to say that God spoke Genesis to Moses.

Sorry that I intruded. But then, IMHO, both his post and your reply have nothing to do with the reality of biological evolution. Smiley
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« Reply #1127 on: July 07, 2009, 04:52:15 PM »

what reason do you have to believe that the Fathers interpreted Genesis according to their science of their day rather than according to divine illumination? im honestly curious about this. are there other instances where such a uniform teaching is questioned on this basis or a similar basis?
I can easily spot mistakes in the Bible. The first thing that comes to my mind is Joshua's story, where 'the Sun stood above the Earth'. Some may say that this is just an artistic view, I say it's an anti-heliocentric one. Of course, I didn't expect people in Ancient Israel to be aware of Heliocentrism.

i think your last sentence makes a crucial point -- the story in Joshua is from Joshua's POV and for all he knew the sun was standing still. But God was the only observer of creation, and Genesis is what he told Moses to write, thus its not from a human POV but rather from God's absolute POV.
I understand that Genesis was borne out of a tradition that had been passed on orally within the Hebrew peoples as they inherited it from Abraham's ancestors.  To say that it's based on what God told Moses to write may be quite misleading--much like the intrinsic belief among many Protestants that the Scriptures were uttered orally by God to the biblical authors (both Old and New Testament) and that these authors therefore made no real participation in what they wrote.  In fact, this argument is often made against the truth of any concept of "Tradition".

im thinking along these lines:

St. Ambrose writes:

Quote
Moses "spoke to God the Most High, not in a vision nor in dreams, but mouth to mouth" (Numbers 12:6-8). Plainly and clearly, not by figures nor by riddles, there was bestowed on him the gift of the Divine presence. And so Moses opened his mouth and uttered what the Lord spoke within him, according to the promise He made to him when He directed him to go to King Pharaoh: "Go therefore and I will open thy mouth and instruct thee what thou shouldest speak" (Ex. 4:12). For, if he had already accepted from God what he should say concerning the liberation of the people, how much more should you accept what He should say concerning heaven? Therefore, "not in the persuasive words of wisdom," not in philosophical fallacies, "but in the demonstration of the Spirit and power" (1 Cor. 2:4), he has ventured to say as if he were a witness of the Divine work: "In the beginning God created heaven and earth."

In a similar vein, St. Basil writes at the very beginning of his Hexaemeron:

Quote
This man, who is made equal to the angels, being considered worthy of the sight of God face to face, reports to us those things which he heard from God.

St. John Chrysostom says that, just as St. John the Theologian was a prophet of things of the fu-ture, Moses was a prophet of things of the past. He says the following:

Quote
All the other prophets spoke either of what was to occur after a long time or of what was about to happen then; but he, the blessed (Moses), who lived many generations after (the creation of the world), was vouchsafed by the guidance of the right hand of the Most High to utter what had been done by the Lord before his own birth. It is for this reason that he begins to speak thus: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth," as if calling out to us all with a loud voice: it is not by the instruction of men that I say this; He Who called them (heaven and earth) out of non-being into being - it is He Who has roused my tongue to relate of them. And therefore I entreat you, let us pay heed to these words as if we heard not Moses but the very Lord of the universe Who speaks through the tongue of Moses, and let us take leave for good of our own opinions.

In his commentary on the Fifth Day of Creation, St. John Chrysostom emphasizes the preciseness and accurateness of the order in which the creation is described.

Quote
The blessed Moses, instructed by the Spirit of God, teaches us with such detail ... so that we might clearly know both the order and the way of the creation of each thing. If God had not been concerned for our salvation and had not guided the tongue of the Prophet, it would have been sufficient to say that God created the heaven, and the earth, and the sea, and living creatures, without indicating either the order of the days or what was created earlier and what later.... But he distinguishes so clearly both the order of creation and the number of days, and instructs us about everything with great condescension, in order that we, coming to know the whole truth, would no longer heed the false teachings of those who speak of everything according to their own reasonings, but might comprehend the unutterable power of our Creator.

And all this is related to the reality of biological evolution, or of the quarks, or of the electromagnetic field... how?

im talking about Scripture .... and i was replying to Gamma Ray saying that its misleading to say that God spoke Genesis to Moses.

Sorry that I intruded. But then, IMHO, both his post and your reply have nothing to do with the reality of biological evolution. Smiley

they weren't supposed to ... (at least mine wasn't ...)
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« Reply #1128 on: July 07, 2009, 05:04:22 PM »

[quote author=jckstraw72 link=topic=12605.msg337496#msg337496 date=1246999935

And all this is related to the reality of biological evolution, or of the quarks, or of the electromagnetic field... how?

Quote
im talking about Scripture .... and i was replying to Gamma Ray saying that its misleading to say that God spoke Genesis to Moses.

Quote
Sorry that I intruded. But then, IMHO, both his post and your reply have nothing to do with the reality of biological evolution. Smiley

Quote
they weren't supposed to ... (at least mine wasn't ...)

Quote
Then maybe you guys open another thread and not use "evolution" in the title? Just a thought...

read the OP ... the question is whether or not Genesis should be interpreted literally. relevant to this is whether Moses was simply recording oral tradition or recording what he saw and heard from God.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2009, 05:05:12 PM by jckstraw72 » Logged
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« Reply #1129 on: July 07, 2009, 05:05:27 PM »


And all this is related to the reality of biological evolution, or of the quarks, or of the electromagnetic field... how?

im talking about Scripture .... and i was replying to Gamma Ray saying that its misleading to say that God spoke Genesis to Moses.

Sorry that I intruded. But then, IMHO, both his post and your reply have nothing to do with the reality of biological evolution. Smiley

they weren't supposed to ... (at least mine wasn't ...)

Then maybe you guys open another thread and not use the term "evolution" in its title? Just a thought...
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« Reply #1130 on: July 07, 2009, 05:06:54 PM »

[quote author=jckstraw72 link=topic=12605.msg337496#msg337496 date=1246999935

And all this is related to the reality of biological evolution, or of the quarks, or of the electromagnetic field... how?

Quote
im talking about Scripture .... and i was replying to Gamma Ray saying that its misleading to say that God spoke Genesis to Moses.

Quote
Sorry that I intruded. But then, IMHO, both his post and your reply have nothing to do with the reality of biological evolution. Smiley

Quote
they weren't supposed to ... (at least mine wasn't ...)

Quote
Then maybe you guys open another thread and not use "evolution" in the title? Just a thought...

read the OP ... the question is whether or not Genesis should be interpreted literally. relevant to this is whether Moses was simply recording oral tradition or recording what he saw and heard from God.

Alright, fine. Smiley But then the term "evolution" should not even feature in the title in the first place. Smiley
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« Reply #1131 on: July 07, 2009, 05:07:43 PM »

from the funeral service: "Of old thou hast created me from nothing, And honored me with thy divine image; But when I disobeyed thy commandment, Thou hast returned me to the earth whence I was taken. Lead me back again to thy likeness, Refashioning my ancient beauty."

.... so we see that physical death only enters with sin. interestingly, this is quoted by Met. KALLISTOS in the Orthodox Way.



another related topic is the Fathers' teaching that virginity is a higher path than marriage as that was the state that Adam and Eve were created in and intended to continue in.  They teach that sexual reproduction only began with the Fall -- a more passionate and animalistic method was introduced after our falling away from God. but if man is simply the product of evolution then sexual reproduction would be an inherent part of our existence. this is another way in which evolution contradicts the teachings of the Church.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2009, 05:09:57 PM by jckstraw72 » Logged
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« Reply #1132 on: July 07, 2009, 05:08:38 PM »

[quote author=jckstraw72 link=topic=12605.msg337496#msg337496 date=1246999935

And all this is related to the reality of biological evolution, or of the quarks, or of the electromagnetic field... how?

Quote
im talking about Scripture .... and i was replying to Gamma Ray saying that its misleading to say that God spoke Genesis to Moses.

Quote
Sorry that I intruded. But then, IMHO, both his post and your reply have nothing to do with the reality of biological evolution. Smiley

Quote
they weren't supposed to ... (at least mine wasn't ...)

Quote
Then maybe you guys open another thread and not use "evolution" in the title? Just a thought...

read the OP ... the question is whether or not Genesis should be interpreted literally. relevant to this is whether Moses was simply recording oral tradition or recording what he saw and heard from God.

Alright, fine. Smiley But then the term "evolution" should not even feature in the title in the first place. Smiley

perhaps, but it obviously ties in --- most people that read Genesis strictly allegorically do so because they accept evolution.
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« Reply #1133 on: July 09, 2009, 10:19:08 AM »

i think your last sentence makes a crucial point -- the story in Joshua is from Joshua's POV and for all he knew the sun was standing still. But God was the only observer of creation, and Genesis is what he told Moses to write, thus its not from a human POV but rather from God's absolute POV.
Then I suppose that god's intentions was not to hand out a scientific work to newly freed people, but rather provide them with a moral code, so that they can create and build a new society. Filling Genesis with stuff about evolution would only make it harder for them to follow God.

P.S.: Stop quoting quoted quotes quoting others, please. Sad
P.S. 2: Why is Chuck Norris in the thread's tags?!?! :S
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« Reply #1134 on: July 09, 2009, 03:06:11 PM »

P.S. 2: Why is Chuck Norris in the thread's tags?!?! :S

This thread is 26 pages and has gone no where.  Nothing but the all holy beard of Chuck Norris could prevent this thread from being locked a long time ago.
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« Reply #1135 on: July 09, 2009, 03:13:28 PM »

P.S. 2: Why is Chuck Norris in the thread's tags?!?! :S

This thread is 26 pages and has gone no where.  Nothing but the all holy beard of Chuck Norris could prevent this thread from being locked a long time ago.

Do I hear the plea to overrule Chuck Norris and to lock the thread? --H., mod.
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« Reply #1136 on: July 09, 2009, 06:27:54 PM »

Do I hear the plea to overrule Chuck Norris and to lock the thread? --H., mod.

Yes!  His reign of terror must end!
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« Reply #1137 on: July 09, 2009, 06:35:11 PM »

Do I hear the plea to overrule Chuck Norris and to lock the thread? --H., mod.

Yes!  His reign of terror must end!

But it's a sticky... Maybe let's just take a break from posing for a few days or weeks, and then something new might appear.
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« Reply #1138 on: July 09, 2009, 11:33:05 PM »

haha where does Chuck  Norris come from? havent heard any CN jokes in quite a while.
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« Reply #1139 on: July 09, 2009, 11:47:45 PM »

We actually have a whole thread devoted to nothing but Chuck Norris jokes.  You might want to check it out.

Chuck Norris
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« Reply #1140 on: July 10, 2009, 08:19:38 AM »

Do I hear the plea to overrule Chuck Norris and to lock the thread? --H., mod.

Yes!  His reign of terror must end!

But it's a sticky... Maybe let's just take a break from posing for a few days or weeks, and then something new might appear.
Unfortunately, as we know from science, something new will not appear in this current generation of the species, but through several generations, we might see a significant change.
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« Reply #1141 on: July 15, 2009, 03:41:10 AM »

http://www.christiananswers.net/catalog/incredible.html

Incredible Creatures That Defy Evolution

This high-quality series enters the fascinating world of animals to reveal sophisticated and complex designs that shake the traditional foundations of evolutionary theory. An evolutionary scientist comes face-to-face with exciting and clear evidence of Divine design in nature, and becomes an ardent Creationist. Beautiful and fascinating photography. Wonderful for the whole family, these films are easy to understand and uses non-technical language.

Post modified to include excerpt from the link.


Dan,

From now on, please copy and paste an excerpt from any site you link.  Thank you.

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« Reply #1142 on: July 15, 2009, 07:20:38 AM »

What's the matter with that, Dan-Romania? Are you supporting the views of this scientist on biological evolution? Why don't you try and discuss your position first?
As for me, I don't believe in biological evolution "tout court", but I support the Day-Age theory and believe in gaps in the Genesis genealogies (whose characters are historical from my point of view). I used the chonology to identify the Deluge of Noah with the 5600 BC local flood in the Black Sea, and have come to the idea that Adam (as a "special" human) was created somewhere in 12500 BC, and this allowed me to feel comfortable with official science and archeology. I don't think that the Orthodox should be striken by the concepts supported in the link you gave us, since biological evolution and the billions of years proposed by secular science don't necessarily come together... Progressive Creationists are a clear example of this!
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« Reply #1143 on: July 15, 2009, 07:50:03 AM »

What's the matter with that, Dan-Romania? Are you supporting the views of this scientist on biological evolution? Why don't you try and discuss your position first?
As for me, I don't believe in biological evolution "tout court",

There is nothing to "believe" there. Scientific theories are not a subject of belief.

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« Reply #1144 on: July 15, 2009, 08:23:25 AM »

If you are going to read works by Dr. Jobe Martin, you should at least read works by Dr. Thomas Eisner as well then.  He proposes many thorough opposing arguments to Dr. Martin's new-found creationist views, especially when Dr. Martin's ID-Bugs (i.e.: bombardier beetles) are used as 'proof'.
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« Reply #1145 on: July 15, 2009, 08:41:05 AM »

you know what is the most common result i found upon evolution ? missing fossiles :-} ; everybody who says evolution is a fact is a liar;The theory of Evolution is bogus ; Sure it is an interesting and captivating story and opinion , but nothing more.I`m tottaly in for biology , but evolution crosses the line of reality , and bounderies , if a forced theory a deceivement lie.
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« Reply #1146 on: July 15, 2009, 08:50:50 AM »

you know what is the most common result i found upon evolution ? missing fossiles :-} ; everybody who says evolution is a fact is a liar;The theory of Evolution is bogus ; Sure it is an interesting and captivating story and opinion , but nothing more.I`m tottaly in for biology , but evolution crosses the line of reality , and bounderies , if a forced theory a deceivement lie.

It's a miracle that we have ANY fossils at all...

As for lies, please understand: scientific theories are true UNTIL or UNLESS they are disproved. So far, nothing really disproves the theory of biological evolution. What some people think as a "disproof" is, actually, not even addressing the theory of biological evolution; rather, it is a "disproof" of what THEY erroneously think the theory of biological evolution is.

In logic, it's called "strawman argument." Create something that in your mind is a certain theory (while in fact it is not), and attack it. People do it all the time.
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« Reply #1147 on: July 15, 2009, 09:04:23 AM »

everybody who says evolution is a fact is a liar
Yes. Evolution is the theory that explains the facts. I would submit also that everybody who says evolution is a fact does not understand science.
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« Reply #1148 on: July 15, 2009, 09:43:58 AM »

you know what is the most common result i found upon evolution ? missing fossiles :-}

What "missing fossils" are you thinking of, please?   What study have you made of Paleontology?  How do you know that there are fossils "missing" rather then not found as yet?

Quote
Sure it is an interesting and captivating story and opinion , but nothing more.

Why do you think that it is "captivating"? 

Along with the link you gave, will you tell us what authors or sites you base your opinion on, please? 

Ebor
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« Reply #1149 on: July 15, 2009, 10:17:56 AM »

everybody who says evolution is a fact is a liar
Yes. Evolution is the theory that explains the facts. I would submit also that everybody who says evolution is a fact does not understand science.

Well, that life evolves (i.e. that the genetic makeup of populations changes over time) is a fact. A statement that because of this change in the genetic makeup of populations, driven by mutations, natural selection, genetic drift, gene flow, non-random sexual reproduction and other factors, new taxonomic forms descend from older taxonomic forms - that, of course, is a theory.
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« Reply #1150 on: July 15, 2009, 11:35:39 AM »

everybody who says evolution is a fact is a liar
Yes. Evolution is the theory that explains the facts. I would submit also that everybody who says evolution is a fact does not understand science.

Well, that life evolves (i.e. that the genetic makeup of populations changes over time) is a fact. A statement that because of this change in the genetic makeup of populations, driven by mutations, natural selection, genetic drift, gene flow, non-random sexual reproduction and other factors, new taxonomic forms descend from older taxonomic forms - that, of course, is a theory.
Exactly. Thank you for the clarification; I certainly do not want to add to the enormous (in the truest sense of the word) amount of misleading information on this topic.
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« Reply #1151 on: July 15, 2009, 11:52:50 AM »

^^You are most welcome. It should be said, also, that people tend to misunderstand and misuse the term "theory." From Dan's posts, it seems like to him, a theory is just a "nice story," something that people make up. But theories are not merely "stories." Newton's mechanics was, essentially, a theory (even though it consists of three "laws" - which are, in fact, three hypotheses) - but it was based on a huge number of factual observations, Newton's own, and Galileo's, and other people's. Same thing Darwin's theory.
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« Reply #1152 on: July 15, 2009, 02:22:27 PM »

you evolutionist i don`t give a .... on your evolution , this thread should be closed btw , it is going to astrayed because when people fallow something wich is not true they tend to get mischiavious , lie about their beliefs , attack those who don`t agree with them . Yes it is beautifull to understand things in the light of true science , but stupid things such as evolutionist theories makes from christians an ass.
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« Reply #1153 on: July 15, 2009, 02:37:11 PM »

you evolutionist i don`t give a .... on your evolution , this thread should be closed btw , it is going to astrayed because when people fallow something wich is not true they tend to get mischiavious , lie about their beliefs , attack those who don`t agree with them . Yes it is beautifull to understand things in the light of true science , but stupid things such as evolutionist theories makes from christians an ass.
You're arguing from nothing more than raw emotion.  Can you give any good rational arguments for why Christians should reject evolution?  You haven't done so yet.
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« Reply #1154 on: July 15, 2009, 02:51:28 PM »

you evolutionist i don`t give a .... on your evolution , this thread should be closed btw , it is going to astrayed because when people fallow something wich is not true they tend to get mischiavious , lie about their beliefs , attack those who don`t agree with them . Yes it is beautifull to understand things in the light of true science , but stupid things such as evolutionist theories makes from christians an ass.
You're arguing from nothing more than raw emotion.  Can you give any good rational arguments for why Christians should reject evolution?  You haven't done so yet.

And also why Christians should reject (or accept) the general and special relativity theory, quantum mechanics, the theory of atomic and molecular structure of matter, quarks, etc.? Smiley
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« Reply #1155 on: July 15, 2009, 02:57:45 PM »

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
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« Reply #1156 on: July 15, 2009, 03:19:27 PM »

God was first , the Maker ... as I said true science is appreciable ... the revealing of things in the light of true science is beautifull , wich is not the case here.I don`t give a .... on you being a biology teacher Heorji , I don`t like you and this time i`m not going to apologise , as long as your not coming with anything real about this , not just fairytales I don`t see why this topic must exist.I propose to put and end to this nonsense and to this stupidity and close this topic temporarily untill of a request from someone who really has something new to come with not just picking up fights .I don`t like you evolutionists.You are a bunch of apes , who think "pigs can fly".None of your arguments make any sense.And as a biology teacher Heorji you should of know things better.


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« Reply #1157 on: July 15, 2009, 03:22:34 PM »

Or to build a seppareted tread just for Evolution.I think the term creationist is used incorectly.Make their own thread better , and close this one.Moderate get on it.Cease the stupidity , let them have their own thread and discuss it there what they please and think about their Evolution , without having the need of arguing with people who are "creationists".
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« Reply #1158 on: July 15, 2009, 03:29:05 PM »

God was first , the Maker ... as I said true science is appreciable ... the revealing of things in the light of true science is beautifull ,

OK, but just HOW were things "revealed" in schience? Before 1543, pretty much everyone thought that the Sun is orbiting the Earth. But in 1543, Copernicus published his book, in which he showed, very "theoretically," using mathematical equasions, that it is more consistent with the existing evidence to think that the Earth is orbiting the Sun. Do you realize how many people in those days said, "he is crazy, he is saying that the pigs can fly! It's just so obvious that the earth is immobile and that the sun moves around it!"?
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« Reply #1159 on: July 15, 2009, 03:31:25 PM »

I hope that Dan-Romania is kidding! Embarrassed
Probably (s)he doesn't know that Genesis accepts evolution (I'll be back with some verse).

(Boy, I wish I could find some non-Orthodox young-Earth-creationists in Greece. Grin)
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« Reply #1160 on: July 15, 2009, 03:33:24 PM »

I hope that Dan-Romania is kidding! Embarrassed
Probably (s)he doesn't know that Genesis accepts evolution (I'll be back with some verse).

(Boy, I wish I could find some non-Orthodox young-Earth-creationists in Greece. Grin)

You are an idiot , I bet you don`t even know what evolution states
You have been warned before (for earlier actions on this thread, no less) to not attack other posters with ad hominems.  Since this is the second time you have done this in little more than a month, you are now on Warned status for three weeks beginning today.  If you engage in such personal attacks again during the time of your warning, you will be placed on Post Moderation--i.e., your posts will then need moderatorial approval to appear on the forum.  Please appeal my decision to cleveland, the global moderator responsible for this section, if you feel this warning is unfair.

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« Reply #1161 on: July 15, 2009, 03:34:08 PM »

I hope that Dan-Romania is kidding! Embarrassed
Probably (s)he doesn't know that Genesis accepts evolution (I'll be back with some verse).

(Boy, I wish I could find some non-Orthodox young-Earth-creationists in Greece. Grin)

I think he is  not kidding, and we are right now not talking about Genesis. I know the OP was about Genesis, but here, I am just trying to explain to Dan, what scientific theories really are...
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« Reply #1162 on: July 15, 2009, 03:46:28 PM »

Dan-Romania, are you talking about the survival of the fittest and the mutations? Where exactly do you find evolution to be contradictory to the Scripture?

You already put it very well by clarifying that it's more of a concept/theorem (?) rather than an assumption, I believe, Heorhij.
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« Reply #1163 on: July 15, 2009, 03:53:41 PM »

The theory of evolution claims something else GammaRay.That from a specy of animal i think fish , evolved all beings , that they transformed itself into reptiles , amphibians ,birds , and that the human beings are evolved apes.You figure it out how that is in line with the Scripture GammaRay.
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« Reply #1164 on: July 15, 2009, 04:31:59 PM »

The theory of evolution claims something else GammaRay.That from a specy of animal i think fish , evolved all beings , that they transformed itself into reptiles , amphibians ,birds , and that the human beings are evolved apes.You figure it out how that is in line with the Scripture GammaRay.

"11. And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.


12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. (...)


20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.


21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.


22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth."

So, what's there you think inconsistent with the Scriptures? "Water" and "earth" are natural forces (including mutations,natural selection, etc.)
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« Reply #1165 on: July 15, 2009, 05:13:16 PM »

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

chicken!
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« Reply #1166 on: July 15, 2009, 05:38:34 PM »

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

the chicken egg which was laid by a proto-chicken. 
 Wink
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« Reply #1167 on: July 15, 2009, 06:02:30 PM »

Or to build a seppareted tread just for Evolution.I think the term creationist is used incorectly.Make their own thread better , and close this one.Moderate get on it.Cease the stupidity , let them have their own thread and discuss it there what they please and think about their Evolution , without having the need of arguing with people who are "creationists".
I also don't appreciate your rudeness to my colleagues on the Moderator Team by demanding publicly that we take the action you desire.  If you really think we need to take action on a particular problem, please bring the issue to our attention in private by using such media as the private message system or the "Report to Moderator" function.
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« Reply #1168 on: July 15, 2009, 08:53:07 PM »

I hope that Dan-Romania is kidding! Embarrassed
Probably (s)he doesn't know that Genesis accepts evolution (I'll be back with some verse).

(Boy, I wish I could find some non-Orthodox young-Earth-creationists in Greece. Grin)

GammaRay,

Glad to hear this phenomenon hasn't hit your shores. This young-earth-creationist *militancy* comes from America. (Sorry guys! angel) Some decades ago it was unheard of in the UK, Australia and NZ, but in recent years - probably since the 90s - it has begun to get a noisy hold in those countries, too. Sadly people like those from Answers in Genesis and similar groups attract the ignorant and the fanatical, whose only recourse is to resort to ad hominem because they really have no other ammunition.   

The prevailing assumption with creationists, which has been spread and encouraged by the "Christian Right", is that the standard scientific model of evolution contradicts orthodox Christian beliefs. And no amount of argument will convince them otherwise. To such people, it's not possible to adhere to orthodox Christianity while also accepting the truth of evolution.

Although the existence of Christians who do accept the truth of evolution should make it clear that evolution and Christianity are not mutually incompatible, opponents of evolution will quickly argue that only “unorthodox Christians” accept evolution — that these Christians do not accept orthodox Christian doctrines and therefore aren’t even “real” Christians in the first place.

One would think that something is wrong with such a claim is demonstrated by the existence of so many scientists who are Christian, along with the mountains of evidence we have for evolution. Unfortunately, Creationist opposition to the theory of evolution is not predicated on the belief that it isn’t supported by the evidence. That might be what they argue, but that’s not the reason for rejecting it. Opposition to evolution is predicated on the idea that the acceptance of evolution leads to contradictions of basic Christians beliefs; especially, as we have seen from this thread, the literal interpretation of the Genesis account of creation.

However, Christians had managed to live in harmony with Darwin's theory for many years before this phenomenon hit, and we can continue to do so. Grin

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« Reply #1169 on: July 16, 2009, 03:18:56 AM »

I don`t think you know the orthodox beliefs Riddikulus , you are a convert after all ;The "truth" of evolution does not exist is only a fairy tale.A theory wich hasn`t been proven.You forgot verses 24-28 Heorji.Let me put them out for you :

24And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

26Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth,b and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27So God created man in his own image,

in the image of God he created him;

male and female he created them.

28God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

1) God made all the creatures that crowl on earth after making the animals from the waters, the fishes.
2)God created man in his own image , not after the image of some dumb primate ape , He did not said : Let us make from ape a human being.

the next point i`m not an literalist interpreter of Genesis , you idiot heretic convert Riddikulus ; Just because I light the error in the evolution theory doesn`t mean I`m a literalist interpreter; The forum is full of protestant converts leaches or catholic biologist.Screw you all evolutionists. I`m not going to post on this thread anymore.Make your monkey asses dumb between yourselfs evolutionist . Bye.
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