Author Topic: Old vs. New Calendar?  (Read 235179 times)

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2655 on: December 28, 2014, 04:17:25 PM »
Wait, you guys are actually girls? Freaks, since when women do theology? That's only for ugly guys who cant get girls.  :angel:
Arachne is a girl--or maybe I should say lady. I, however, am one of those ugly guys who can't get a girl. :laugh:

I don't know what you look like, Peter, but I am a theologian and I am sexy. 

Because,
 :D :D :P :)

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2656 on: December 28, 2014, 04:47:01 PM »
Wait, you guys are actually girls? Freaks, since when women do theology? That's only for ugly guys who cant get girls.  :angel:
Arachne is a girl--or maybe I should say lady. I, however, am one of those ugly guys who can't get a girl. :laugh:

I don't know what you look like, Peter, but I am a theologian and I am sexy. 

Because,
 :D :D :P :)

You are not far from the kingdom of God.

Forsooth, a kingdom to behold.

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2657 on: December 28, 2014, 04:50:53 PM »
Wait, you guys are actually girls? Freaks, since when women do theology? That's only for ugly guys who cant get girls.  :angel:
Arachne is a girl--or maybe I should say lady. I, however, am one of those ugly guys who can't get a girl. :laugh:

I don't know what you look like, Peter, but I am a theologian and I am sexy. 

Because,
 :D :D :P :)

You are not far from the kingdom of God.

Forsooth, a kingdom to behold.



This thread just keeps getting better...
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2658 on: December 28, 2014, 06:27:27 PM »
In the spirit of the above, I believe that it is important for us to celebrate feats as we always have, on the calendar of the church. So when it says Christmas is 25 December, that is when we should celebrate it, and Pascha should be the Sunday following the first full(or is it new?) moon following 21 MAR.


That said, while those dates should not be changed, the Church shouldn't bother herself with what day it is, but rather, have and celebrate the feats appointed to that day

Both new calendar and old calendar Churches must celebrate Easter at the same time, that is the only Ecumenical Council canon we still obey i think.

Could you give us a reference for this canon from an Ecumenical Council?

First Ecumenical Council, don't remember which exactly canon is it. They also condemned those who celebrate Pasha at the same time with Jews.

I don't think he was around during the First Ecumenical Council.   :-\

Offline biro

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2659 on: December 28, 2014, 08:06:24 PM »
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2660 on: December 28, 2014, 10:08:15 PM »


New calendar, bad. Old calendar, good. Why? Because it is old, and everything that is old is good in Orthodoxy.

So, "everything that is old is good in Orthodoxy"?

Tear out your iconostasis then.  Time for an older and apparently "more Orthodox" style.
"It was apparently in the fourteenth century that the iconostasis, or templon, assumed an appearance like the one we know. Previously it had been a colonnade with curtains, and the images were confined to the horizontal beam." http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8025

Be sure to let us know how that works out at your church.  :)

Offline hecma925

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2661 on: December 28, 2014, 10:13:36 PM »
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2662 on: December 29, 2014, 01:28:44 AM »
Sorry to ruin the fun (as much as I was enjoying it), but let's get back on topic
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2663 on: December 29, 2014, 01:30:23 AM »
I am fairly certain that Baba's stories would be about going to church no matter what holiday it might or might not be.......or what date it is.



Offline biro

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2664 on: December 29, 2014, 02:12:25 AM »
Is Prav saying the Church of Finland isn't Orthodox?  ???

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Offline Pravoslavac

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2665 on: December 29, 2014, 06:51:29 AM »


New calendar, bad. Old calendar, good. Why? Because it is old, and everything that is old is good in Orthodoxy.

So, "everything that is old is good in Orthodoxy"?

Tear out your iconostasis then.  Time for an older and apparently "more Orthodox" style.
"It was apparently in the fourteenth century that the iconostasis, or templon, assumed an appearance like the one we know. Previously it had been a colonnade with curtains, and the images were confined to the horizontal beam." http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8025

Be sure to let us know how that works out at your church.  :)

Iconostasis are old. ;) New calendar isn't.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2666 on: December 29, 2014, 10:34:42 AM »
I'm happy that the real-life Serbs I know would like to drink šljivovica with me and joke around rather than yammer on about my St. Tikhon's Monastery 2015 wall calendar (New Style).

In real life i don't bother People with calendar, but i also don't drink.
This settles it. You are not a real Serb.
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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2667 on: December 29, 2014, 03:14:05 PM »


New calendar, bad. Old calendar, good. Why? Because it is old, and everything that is old is good in Orthodoxy.

So, "everything that is old is good in Orthodoxy"?

Tear out your iconostasis then.  Time for an older and apparently "more Orthodox" style.
"It was apparently in the fourteenth century that the iconostasis, or templon, assumed an appearance like the one we know. Previously it had been a colonnade with curtains, and the images were confined to the horizontal beam." http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8025

Be sure to let us know how that works out at your church.  :)

Iconostasis are old. ;) New calendar isn't.
That's about as asinine a comment as I've ever read here. Are you aware that at one time even the Christian faith was new? That at one time even the Old Calendar was new?
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Offline Thomas

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2668 on: December 29, 2014, 03:35:12 PM »
To most of the Laity in the US, they would be just as happy with the Old Calendar as with the new Calendar. Converts usually have no issues with it, they simply keep Christmas latter and attend family celebrations with non-member family members like they always did, they just bring something fasting to the family parties or dines. It is the Old calendar and the new calendar theologians who have made such a big deal out of this, as for me when I am in an old calendar parish I use the old calendar and when I am in a New calendar Parish I use the new calendar...it is not that big of a deal.  I don't think the new calendar has brought many converts into the church (as it was presupposed it would in the Americas) and the fervor that it rises in the old  calenderist churches does nothing but divide the body of Christ.
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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2669 on: December 29, 2014, 03:55:17 PM »
To most of the Laity in the US, they would be just as happy with the Old Calendar as with the new Calendar. Converts usually have no issues with it, they simply keep Christmas latter and attend family celebrations with non-member family members like they always did, they just bring something fasting to the family parties or dines. It is the Old calendar and the new calendar theologians who have made such a big deal out of this, as for me when I am in an old calendar parish I use the old calendar and when I am in a New calendar Parish I use the new calendar...it is not that big of a deal.  I don't think the new calendar has brought many converts into the church (as it was presupposed it would in the Americas) and the fervor that it rises in the old  calenderist churches does nothing but divide the body of Christ.
+1

I actually kind of prefer the Old Calendar so I can do the commercialistic stuff on one day and the religious aspect on another. Easter is all about Easter Bunnies, baskets and cheesy Easter praise songs at my wife's church and then I can go to Pascha and actually worship on the Old Calendar.  Since my wife is Methodist, it makes it easier for us to each have our days when we celebrate holy days.  Nonetheless, we are on the New Calendar at our parish, so I go with that.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2670 on: December 29, 2014, 04:00:47 PM »
I must say that hearing the Finnish Orthodox, an EO Church, celebrate Easter on the Gregorian is interesting and rare to my ears.  Are there other EO jurisdictions that do the same?
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Offline elephant

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2671 on: December 29, 2014, 04:02:43 PM »
I like buying half-off chocolate eggs!

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2672 on: December 29, 2014, 04:32:18 PM »
I must say that hearing the Finnish Orthodox, an EO Church, celebrate Easter on the Gregorian is interesting and rare to my ears.  Are there other EO jurisdictions that do the same?
I believe that is only the Finnish Church that does so, and from what my godfather told me, it is so they can receive money from the state as a state church.

We do have some Finns here however, that could clear this up as a fact or whatever the truth behind the reasoning is.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2673 on: December 29, 2014, 04:34:10 PM »
The relationship of Orthodoxy and governments all over Europe is a little more nuanced than that.
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2674 on: December 29, 2014, 04:43:08 PM »
To most of the Laity in the US, they would be just as happy with the Old Calendar as with the new Calendar. Converts usually have no issues with it, they simply keep Christmas latter and attend family celebrations with non-member family members like they always did, they just bring something fasting to the family parties or dines. It is the Old calendar and the new calendar theologians who have made such a big deal out of this, as for me when I am in an old calendar parish I use the old calendar and when I am in a New calendar Parish I use the new calendar...it is not that big of a deal.  I don't think the new calendar has brought many converts into the church (as it was presupposed it would in the Americas) and the fervor that it rises in the old  calenderist churches does nothing but divide the body of Christ.

I grew up in Istanbul, Turkey under the Old Calendar. Cultural contaminations were very few to nonexistent. Nativity was strictly a religious holiday, with one tiny non-liturgical event: we used to dress up as shepherds and go out at o-dark-thirty to bang on fellow parishioners doors and wake them up with carols. Since we generally did not want to draw a great amount of attention to ourselves and in the spirit of the Nativity Fast, we did not put up a Christmas tree until Christmas eve. No gifts were exchanged, of course. As we grew older we learned about the Western custom and got our parents to grudgingly use New Years as the gifting holiday. But, as we were still in the Fast, we got some socks or underwear, and one book. Some years, we even got a shared, family game. It is this fasting/feasting rhythm and non-commercialization that I miss the most, but I know that the calendar had very little to do with the degeneration of both the Nativity Fast and Feast Day in the West. I am fairly sure that attending an Old calendar Church is something that I can tolerate and get used to. Indeed, it would be one of those challenges that the Lord throws our way as a means for growth. In my case, my prideful nature and an abhorrence of stupidity are the two factors that prevent me from approaching the Old Calendar with equanimity.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 04:45:19 PM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2675 on: December 29, 2014, 04:54:10 PM »
Carl -- that's a great post -- and I think somewhere in there you raised a point I find important. It's too easy for folks with a strong interest in Eastern Orthodoxy to assume things about the West. In point of fact, it wasn't too many generations ago when a lot of Western Europe and America functioned much like a village in an Orthodox land, with life revolving around the church and traditions. When and how that changed might have more to teach us than simply contrasting Eastern tradition with what the West looks like at the present moment.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2676 on: December 29, 2014, 05:14:58 PM »
I actually kind of prefer the Old Calendar so I can do the commercialistic stuff on one day and the religious aspect on another.

I realise you had a particular context in mind when you said this, but in general it is really a terrible way of looking at this issue. 
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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2677 on: December 29, 2014, 05:19:55 PM »
I actually kind of prefer the Old Calendar so I can do the commercialistic stuff on one day and the religious aspect on another.

I realise you had a particular context in mind when you said this, but in general it is really a terrible way of looking at this issue. 

Yeah, I know. And frankly, I would like to dispense with all the commercialistic stuff all together, but it means something to my family, so I have to do it. Therefore, if I have to do it, I would prefer not to have to do it on the same day that I am trying to worship. Take Christmas for example. I would really like to be able to attend Divine Liturgy on Christmas. Unfortunately, I can't because it is our family tradition for people to show up in the morning and open presents pretty much all day with some people leaving and more people coming and squeezing in going to my wife's church to see the kids do a couple songs. It is just kind of frustrating, but hell hath no fury like a woman who has her Christmas traditions taken away from her.  :-\
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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2678 on: December 29, 2014, 05:22:14 PM »
To most of the Laity in the US, they would be just as happy with the Old Calendar as with the new Calendar. Converts usually have no issues with it, they simply keep Christmas latter and attend family celebrations with non-member family members like they always did, they just bring something fasting to the family parties or dines. It is the Old calendar and the new calendar theologians who have made such a big deal out of this, as for me when I am in an old calendar parish I use the old calendar and when I am in a New calendar Parish I use the new calendar...it is not that big of a deal.  I don't think the new calendar has brought many converts into the church (as it was presupposed it would in the Americas) and the fervor that it rises in the old  calenderist churches does nothing but divide the body of Christ.

I would be a little bothered by it.
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2679 on: December 29, 2014, 05:37:29 PM »
Carl -- that's a great post -- and I think somewhere in there you raised a point I find important. It's too easy for folks with a strong interest in Eastern Orthodoxy to assume things about the West. In point of fact, it wasn't too many generations ago when a lot of Western Europe and America functioned much like a village in an Orthodox land, with life revolving around the church and traditions. When and how that changed might have more to teach us than simply contrasting Eastern tradition with what the West looks like at the present moment.

So true. I was listening recently to an NPR interview of a Dutch man, who recounted the Christmas traditions in Holland in his youth. Gifting was done on December 6th (Saint Nicholas' commemoration) and Christmas itself was celebrated strictly as a religious holy day on December 25th. This shows two things: (a) the complete irrelevance of the Old Calendar to the problem of secularization and commercialization of Nativity and (b) the change of life's rhythm from the observation of the various fasts and feasts, to a completely secularized calendar--just the way it was in the Apostolic Church that had to operate under a polytheistic society and the non-Christian Julian calendar--the civic calendar of its day. I submit to you that it will not make much of a difference even if the entire Church adopts just one civic calendar (Julian, Revised Julian or Gregorian). Unless we live a life based on the Church calendar (as individuals, congregations, dioceses and local churches), it really does not matter, even though I think not using the Revised Julian is simply stupid. I am sorry that I used that word, but there is no other way that expresses my arguments in one succinct, not weaselly word. I am of course not going to repeat my argumentation, which can be found elsewhere on this forum.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 06:00:50 PM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) »

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2680 on: December 29, 2014, 05:47:05 PM »
I'm happy that my parish (which was the only one in town when I moved here) is on the RJ calendar. After 35 years in Greece, which meant a symbiotic relationship between civic and church calendar (both RJ, of course), it would have been extremely jarring to go back to the Julian. The run-up to Christmas feels antisocial enough as it is. :-\
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Offline Pravoslavac

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2681 on: December 29, 2014, 06:04:51 PM »
Do you realize how unworthy was the Patriarch of Constantinople who first imposed new calendar. He grabbed power and became patriarch of Constantinople, Alexandria and archbishop of Athens, and he was stopped from becoming the patriarch of Jerusalem. There is something WRONG with that guy, too much smoke around him, there was fire there. He worked for the enemies of the Orthodox Church. It created schism and ecumenism which damages the purity of Orthodox faith.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 06:05:56 PM by Pravoslavac »
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2682 on: December 29, 2014, 06:50:23 PM »
Do you realize how unworthy was the Patriarch of Constantinople who first imposed new calendar. He grabbed power and became patriarch of Constantinople, Alexandria and archbishop of Athens, and he was stopped from becoming the patriarch of Jerusalem. There is something WRONG with that guy, too much smoke around him, there was fire there. He worked for the enemies of the Orthodox Church. It created schism and ecumenism which damages the purity of Orthodox faith.

This says nothing about the substance of the argument. The Revised Julian Calendar was developed by the great Serbian scientist Milutin Milanković, an astronomical delegate to the 1923 synod representing the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes.

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2683 on: December 29, 2014, 07:16:52 PM »
Do you realize how unworthy was the Patriarch of Constantinople who first imposed new calendar. He grabbed power and became patriarch of Constantinople, Alexandria and archbishop of Athens, and he was stopped from becoming the patriarch of Jerusalem. There is something WRONG with that guy, too much smoke around him, there was fire there. He worked for the enemies of the Orthodox Church. It created schism and ecumenism which damages the purity of Orthodox faith.

This says nothing about the substance of the argument. The Revised Julian Calendar was developed by the great Serbian scientist Milutin Milanković, an astronomical delegate to the 1923 synod representing the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes.
And there are many Orthodox jurisdictions in the world that adopted the Revised Julian Calendar apart from any work of coercion, or corruption, or whatever you want to call it from Patriarch Meletios or Constantinople.
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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2684 on: December 29, 2014, 07:24:56 PM »
Do you realize how unworthy was the Patriarch of Constantinople who first imposed new calendar. He grabbed power and became patriarch of Constantinople, Alexandria and archbishop of Athens, and he was stopped from becoming the patriarch of Jerusalem. There is something WRONG with that guy, too much smoke around him, there was fire there. He worked for the enemies of the Orthodox Church. It created schism and ecumenism which damages the purity of Orthodox faith.

This says nothing about the substance of the argument. The Revised Julian Calendar was developed by the great Serbian scientist Milutin Milanković, an astronomical delegate to the 1923 synod representing the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes.

I know, but the Church wasn't ready for it, nor there was consensus, and it was imposed by a guy who was sitting on three thrones, what sorcery he used to do that?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 07:25:09 PM by Pravoslavac »
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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2685 on: December 29, 2014, 07:38:55 PM »
Do you realize how unworthy was the Patriarch of Constantinople who first imposed new calendar. He grabbed power and became patriarch of Constantinople, Alexandria and archbishop of Athens, and he was stopped from becoming the patriarch of Jerusalem. There is something WRONG with that guy, too much smoke around him, there was fire there. He worked for the enemies of the Orthodox Church. It created schism and ecumenism which damages the purity of Orthodox faith.

This says nothing about the substance of the argument. The Revised Julian Calendar was developed by the great Serbian scientist Milutin Milanković, an astronomical delegate to the 1923 synod representing the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes.

I know, but the Church wasn't ready for it, nor there was consensus, and it was imposed by a guy who was sitting on three thrones, what sorcery he used to do that?
Patriarch Meletios wasn't the only person responsible for the adoption of the Revised Julian Calendar. To my knowledge, the Russian Orthodox Metropolia in North America, now known as the OCA, adopted the Revised Julian Calendar of their own free will without any pressure from an outside body.
Not all who wander are lost.

Online Justin Kissel

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2686 on: December 29, 2014, 07:50:31 PM »
I must say that hearing the Finnish Orthodox, an EO Church, celebrate Easter on the Gregorian is interesting and rare to my ears.  Are there other EO jurisdictions that do the same?

I don't think so--not right now anyway--though apparently some in Estonia did celebrate western Easter until recently...

Is it true that, in addition to Finland, the Church in Estonia (under the Pat. of Constantinople?) also celebrates western easter?

It was true until this year. Before that they had both parishes entirely on the Gregorian Calendar and at the same some parishes, which for "pastoral reasons" were entirely on the Julian Calendar, so they actually celebrated Pascha on different dates. In June 2011 they decided that they would celebrate Pascha and moveable feasts on one date according to the Julian Calendar.

http://www.orthodoxa.org/FR/estonie/presse/presse%20calendrier.htm

EDIT--Google Translate does a decent enough job with this one...
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 07:52:03 PM by Justin Kissel »
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Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2687 on: January 02, 2015, 10:43:56 AM »
Pascha should be the Sunday following the first full(or is it new?) moon following 21 MAR.
Julian Easter is already the first Sunday after the first ecclesiastical full moon that falls
on or after March 21 Julian.  The problem is that the ecclesiastical full moon is some 4 days later
than the visible full moon one can see in the sky, and Julian 21 March is some 13 days later than
the equinox.
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2688 on: January 02, 2015, 11:04:55 AM »
Pascha should be the Sunday following the first full(or is it new?) moon following 21 MAR.
Julian Easter is already the first Sunday after the first ecclesiastical full moon that falls
on or after March 21 Julian.  The problem is that the ecclesiastical full moon is some 4 days later
than the visible full moon one can see in the sky, and Julian 21 March is some 13 days later than
the equinox.

It is quite ironic indeed that a church that prides itself in its adherence to the Ecumenical Councils fails so miserably in implementing the decision of the First Ecumenical Council.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2689 on: January 02, 2015, 11:59:53 AM »
Pascha should be the Sunday following the first full(or is it new?) moon following 21 MAR.
Julian Easter is already the first Sunday after the first ecclesiastical full moon that falls
on or after March 21 Julian.  The problem is that the ecclesiastical full moon is some 4 days later
than the visible full moon one can see in the sky, and Julian 21 March is some 13 days later than
the equinox.

It is quite ironic indeed that a church that prides itself in its adherence to the Ecumenical Councils fails so miserably in implementing the decision of the First Ecumenical Council.

The 'ecclesiastical full moon'...that concept is one ripe for a lot of heated debate if we are truly honest about the calendar...especially for those who cling to the argument that the Julian was 'God's calendar' as it was sort of in use at the time of Christ - but not in Palestine apparently.  I shall be posting a reflection on my recent experience on the so-called New Calendar later today.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2690 on: January 02, 2015, 12:30:46 PM »
As long time followers of this forum know by now, I am a cradle Orthodox, in my sixties and from a family of parish priests. On Tuesday of this week, my wife and I returned from my son's new home in Georgia where he has been assigned by his Bishop to serve as pastor of a small, but growing parish north of Atlanta, Georgia. All mission parishes in our jurisdiction are required to be on the RJC (i.e. the 'New' Calendar) and our home parish in upstate New York is most decidedly 'Old Calendar'. So, for the first time in our family's life, a 'real' New Calendar Christmas was to be observed.

I should note that I've 'celebrated' Christmas on the 25th in some way or another most of my life. When I was a child, my parents and my godparents would come home to New Jersey to my grandparents' home for a family gathering on the 25th of December. We were all Old Calendar and both my dad and my Godfather - married to my mom's sister - were Orthodox priests and back then - there was only one calendar for the Slavic Orthodox. So the 25th was Baba's big day - a meal for the whole family - about forty of us - and yes, most of us said a prayer, winked and broke the fast - and cousins shared Santa's bounty an. Good times and loving memories forged the feast. But - what kept this Rockwellian image from really being Christmas was that we lacked the participation of our families in the cycle of services which define the Nativity for Orthodox Christians. (It was only 'Christmas' dinner - not the Holy Night/Svatyj Vecer meal.) We sing a few secular carols and a few church carols beloved to many of the Slavs but that was it. 'Little Christmas' would end and back home we would go to prepare for the ' Big Christmas' at home. Pop would visit the homebound, those in nursing homes, hear confessions for what seemed endless hours, he would labor over the typewriter preparing 'stencils' to run off on the mimeograph for the Church Christmas bulletin and of course, the seemingly endless cycle of services would began in earnest.

Meanwhile, back at the house, my mom would spend days baking traditional Christmas pastry and cookies, as the 5th and 6th of January arrived the smells of the Holy Supper foods would dominate - some were wonderful - others not so much! But it was hustle and bustle and of course the wrapping of presents behind closed doors.  It often seemed as if every family in the parish got something and in turn the doorbell never stopped ringing it seemed with friends bringing little, and not so little, thank you's for my parents with the booming greeting of 'Christos Razdajetsja.'

As the 7th neared, the Holy Supper was set and served, the evening was followed by Church and caroling...in the morning - no presents until AFTER Liturgy - which seemed like eternity to the minds of all of the children in the family. (That still seems the same!)
We gathered again at the table after Liturgy and gave thanks as Pop lead us in prayer and blessed the food. Friends would come over in the evening and extend their greetings and in the morning - all over again for what seemed days - we repeated the liturgy and in the evening Vespers soon followed. At some of the parishes my dad served, it was the custom for the choir and parishioners to come to the rectory for light snacks, carols and libations following liturgy as well. In others, the doorbell and phone rang continuously with greetings and well-wishers – Christ is Born Christos Razdajetsja!

After we were married, my wife and I would bundle the children into the car, drive through the crazy upstate weather to Buffalo and join her family in the celebration. But about twenty years ago my wife's parents' parish 'voted' to change the calendar in what was a controversial meeting. It was hardly a glorious occasion the first year we visited there on the 25th, the in-laws were not happy with the change, nor was a majority of the congregation. Some waiting until the 7th and attended at the local Ukrainian or Serbian church, others were simply AWOL.  As the years passed, things improved, but our contact with the New Calendar was limited to a brief in and out stopover for a day.

This year, as I said my youngest son was ordained to the priesthood and sent by our Bishop to a new parish in the South. We planned out trip for a few weeks and in the days leading up to our departure on the 21st of December we were busy on two calendars – preparing for our home parish’s St. Nicholas celebration and breakfast (we served over 240) and baking and preparing traditional Christmas foods and goodies for our trip.  For the first time in my life our house was decorated by St. Nicholas Day and the kitchen smelled as I remembered over the generations with the time honored aroma of various foods and baked goods.

We packed our little car to the gills as they say and off we went, arriving in the Atlanta area the next morning after a long, misty and foggy ride down the spine of the Appalachian Mountains from central New York to north Georgia. When we arrived, the rectory was resplendent in Christmas lights with a beautiful tree. My son had ‘claimed’ many of his grandparents Christmas items which were displayed around the house as they had always been at home in my memory.

The kitchen smelled of baked prosphora and other items and my son was busy working on the service booklets and bulletin for the Nativity. Just like I always remembered with my dad and brother, I thought as we unpacked and settled in.
The next day was the eve of the nativity and the cycle of services took place. In the evening, instead of a family Holy Supper there was a communal one with all of the traditional foods brought in ‘pot luck’ style by cradle and convert families alike. It was beautiful. The Complines of Christmas followed and I was honored to cantor the service with my son. At the end the Church was darkened and we all sang traditional kolady/carols as has been the case with my people since – well forever in memory at least
.
The next morning was Christmas and off to Church for liturgy. The choir sang familiar responses and melodies. Afterwards, all were invited to the parish house for refreshments and fellowship.

In the afternoon, when the dust had settled we finally opened gifts and we all fell asleep – exhausted as those who grew up in priestly families can well relate! The cycle of services was repeated on the next three days through Sunday the 28th.  My son was asked to come to an ailing parishioner’s home to distribute communion and he asked me along – as my father did when I was a boy long ago. We chatted, sang a few songs, ate some cake with the wife of the ailing man and went on our way.  With hearts both filled with joy and heavy at the thought of departing my wife and I  headed north to New York.
As I write this, it is January 2nd. My kitchen smells of the traditional preparations, we have a choir concert at our church tonight with other Orthodox choirs and the cycle of anticipation, excitement and exhaustion begins anew. The rest of my family, including my sixteen month old grandson will soon arrive and it will be Christmas again.

So…I never really ‘got it’ when people would say the ‘date is unimportant’.

Somehow I thought separating the great day from the commercialism of the secular made our way ‘better.’ Well, on the long drive home, we had time to reflect upon these things and we realized that Christmas was not really just a date – it is far more than that and our New Calendar Christmas with our fellow Orthodox Christians in that little parish far away – and I am sure in my neighboring OCA, GOA and other ‘new calendar’ parishes here in town was in fact Christmas. And I suspect, it had much more of what Christmas really is all about in the hearts and souls of those present than among some of us who are so wedded to a date that we can not see the forest for the trees.

Christ is Born!  Glorify Him!
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 12:31:22 PM by podkarpatska »

Offline HANS33

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2691 on: January 03, 2015, 12:35:16 PM »
Hello,
after lurking here for some months, I found the previous post of podkarpatska so beautiful I just wanted to say thanks :-)
Even when I'm not personally affected by this "different calendars stuff" it was refreshing to read and made me smile.

I came across this link about the subject which might be of interest to those who hadn't yet seen it:
http://myocn.net/calendar-question/
Quote
The Church uses the best science that it has available, and that science gives us a more accurate calendar to use as basis for our own Church feasts.  And what about those Orthodox churches using the old Julian calendar? Whatever they decide is fine with me.  I would not presume to correct my friend when visiting his home, and if he has no objection to the clock on his wall running a bit slow, then it is no business of mine.  As we walk side by side throughout the world, there are more important challenges that we both have to face together than clocks on the wall, or calendars giving the dates for our feasts.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 12:38:45 PM by HANS33 »

Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2692 on: January 03, 2015, 01:56:22 PM »
It was the new calendarists who started hurling anathemas.
The anathemas of the 16th century, behind which some (not all) old calendarists seem sometimes to hide from a discussion of the question on the merits, were not "hurled" by "new calendarists."

What is needed is an "indifferent canon" according to which any diocese, or any local church, could adopt the Milankovitch Paschalion, or follow the Finns in adopting the Gregorian paschalion, without breaking communion with the churches who still use the old calendar for some or all purposes. 
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2693 on: January 03, 2015, 02:07:14 PM »
Pascha should be the Sunday following the first full(or is it new?) moon following 21 MAR.
Julian Easter is already the first Sunday after the first ecclesiastical full moon that falls
on or after March 21 Julian.  The problem is that the ecclesiastical full moon is some 4 days later
than the visible full moon one can see in the sky, and Julian 21 March is some 13 days later than
the equinox.

It is quite ironic indeed that a church that prides itself in its adherence to the Ecumenical Councils fails so miserably in implementing the decision of the First Ecumenical Council.
Your present situation is the worst of all possible worlds.  The Nicene council's decision was for the purposes of achieving greater unity and greater accuracy than was available under the traditional approach, which was to set Easter to the Sunday falling in the week of Unleavened Bread as defined by the nearby Jewish community.  But now you have neither unity nor accuracy.  The sensible Finns are on the Gregorian paschalion, creating an exception to unity.  Everyone else's "full moon" looks like this: 
" border="0
obviating accuracy.
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2694 on: January 04, 2015, 07:34:06 PM »
As long time followers of this forum know by now, I am a cradle Orthodox, in my sixties and from a family of parish priests. On Tuesday of this week, my wife and I returned from my son's new home in Georgia where he has been assigned by his Bishop to serve as pastor of a small, but growing parish north of Atlanta, Georgia. All mission parishes in our jurisdiction are required to be on the RJC (i.e. the 'New' Calendar) and our home parish in upstate New York is most decidedly 'Old Calendar'. So, for the first time in our family's life, a 'real' New Calendar Christmas was to be observed.

I should note that I've 'celebrated' Christmas on the 25th in some way or another most of my life. When I was a child, my parents and my godparents would come home to New Jersey to my grandparents' home for a family gathering on the 25th of December. We were all Old Calendar and both my dad and my Godfather - married to my mom's sister - were Orthodox priests and back then - there was only one calendar for the Slavic Orthodox. So the 25th was Baba's big day - a meal for the whole family - about forty of us - and yes, most of us said a prayer, winked and broke the fast - and cousins shared Santa's bounty an. Good times and loving memories forged the feast. But - what kept this Rockwellian image from really being Christmas was that we lacked the participation of our families in the cycle of services which define the Nativity for Orthodox Christians. (It was only 'Christmas' dinner - not the Holy Night/Svatyj Vecer meal.) We sing a few secular carols and a few church carols beloved to many of the Slavs but that was it. 'Little Christmas' would end and back home we would go to prepare for the ' Big Christmas' at home. Pop would visit the homebound, those in nursing homes, hear confessions for what seemed endless hours, he would labor over the typewriter preparing 'stencils' to run off on the mimeograph for the Church Christmas bulletin and of course, the seemingly endless cycle of services would began in earnest.

Meanwhile, back at the house, my mom would spend days baking traditional Christmas pastry and cookies, as the 5th and 6th of January arrived the smells of the Holy Supper foods would dominate - some were wonderful - others not so much! But it was hustle and bustle and of course the wrapping of presents behind closed doors.  It often seemed as if every family in the parish got something and in turn the doorbell never stopped ringing it seemed with friends bringing little, and not so little, thank you's for my parents with the booming greeting of 'Christos Razdajetsja.'

As the 7th neared, the Holy Supper was set and served, the evening was followed by Church and caroling...in the morning - no presents until AFTER Liturgy - which seemed like eternity to the minds of all of the children in the family. (That still seems the same!)
We gathered again at the table after Liturgy and gave thanks as Pop lead us in prayer and blessed the food. Friends would come over in the evening and extend their greetings and in the morning - all over again for what seemed days - we repeated the liturgy and in the evening Vespers soon followed. At some of the parishes my dad served, it was the custom for the choir and parishioners to come to the rectory for light snacks, carols and libations following liturgy as well. In others, the doorbell and phone rang continuously with greetings and well-wishers – Christ is Born Christos Razdajetsja!

After we were married, my wife and I would bundle the children into the car, drive through the crazy upstate weather to Buffalo and join her family in the celebration. But about twenty years ago my wife's parents' parish 'voted' to change the calendar in what was a controversial meeting. It was hardly a glorious occasion the first year we visited there on the 25th, the in-laws were not happy with the change, nor was a majority of the congregation. Some waiting until the 7th and attended at the local Ukrainian or Serbian church, others were simply AWOL.  As the years passed, things improved, but our contact with the New Calendar was limited to a brief in and out stopover for a day.

This year, as I said my youngest son was ordained to the priesthood and sent by our Bishop to a new parish in the South. We planned out trip for a few weeks and in the days leading up to our departure on the 21st of December we were busy on two calendars – preparing for our home parish’s St. Nicholas celebration and breakfast (we served over 240) and baking and preparing traditional Christmas foods and goodies for our trip.  For the first time in my life our house was decorated by St. Nicholas Day and the kitchen smelled as I remembered over the generations with the time honored aroma of various foods and baked goods.

We packed our little car to the gills as they say and off we went, arriving in the Atlanta area the next morning after a long, misty and foggy ride down the spine of the Appalachian Mountains from central New York to north Georgia. When we arrived, the rectory was resplendent in Christmas lights with a beautiful tree. My son had ‘claimed’ many of his grandparents Christmas items which were displayed around the house as they had always been at home in my memory.

The kitchen smelled of baked prosphora and other items and my son was busy working on the service booklets and bulletin for the Nativity. Just like I always remembered with my dad and brother, I thought as we unpacked and settled in.
The next day was the eve of the nativity and the cycle of services took place. In the evening, instead of a family Holy Supper there was a communal one with all of the traditional foods brought in ‘pot luck’ style by cradle and convert families alike. It was beautiful. The Complines of Christmas followed and I was honored to cantor the service with my son. At the end the Church was darkened and we all sang traditional kolady/carols as has been the case with my people since – well forever in memory at least
.
The next morning was Christmas and off to Church for liturgy. The choir sang familiar responses and melodies. Afterwards, all were invited to the parish house for refreshments and fellowship.

In the afternoon, when the dust had settled we finally opened gifts and we all fell asleep – exhausted as those who grew up in priestly families can well relate! The cycle of services was repeated on the next three days through Sunday the 28th.  My son was asked to come to an ailing parishioner’s home to distribute communion and he asked me along – as my father did when I was a boy long ago. We chatted, sang a few songs, ate some cake with the wife of the ailing man and went on our way.  With hearts both filled with joy and heavy at the thought of departing my wife and I  headed north to New York.
As I write this, it is January 2nd. My kitchen smells of the traditional preparations, we have a choir concert at our church tonight with other Orthodox choirs and the cycle of anticipation, excitement and exhaustion begins anew. The rest of my family, including my sixteen month old grandson will soon arrive and it will be Christmas again.

So…I never really ‘got it’ when people would say the ‘date is unimportant’.

Somehow I thought separating the great day from the commercialism of the secular made our way ‘better.’ Well, on the long drive home, we had time to reflect upon these things and we realized that Christmas was not really just a date – it is far more than that and our New Calendar Christmas with our fellow Orthodox Christians in that little parish far away – and I am sure in my neighboring OCA, GOA and other ‘new calendar’ parishes here in town was in fact Christmas. And I suspect, it had much more of what Christmas really is all about in the hearts and souls of those present than among some of us who are so wedded to a date that we can not see the forest for the trees.

Christ is Born!  Glorify Him!


Great post!

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2695 on: January 04, 2015, 07:45:01 PM »
Pascha should be the Sunday following the first full(or is it new?) moon following 21 MAR.
Julian Easter is already the first Sunday after the first ecclesiastical full moon that falls
on or after March 21 Julian.  The problem is that the ecclesiastical full moon is some 4 days later
than the visible full moon one can see in the sky, and Julian 21 March is some 13 days later than
the equinox.

It is quite ironic indeed that a church that prides itself in its adherence to the Ecumenical Councils fails so miserably in implementing the decision of the First Ecumenical Council.
Your present situation is the worst of all possible worlds.  The Nicene council's decision was for the purposes of achieving greater unity and greater accuracy than was available under the traditional approach, which was to set Easter to the Sunday falling in the week of Unleavened Bread as defined by the nearby Jewish community.  But now you have neither unity nor accuracy.  The sensible Finns are on the Gregorian paschalion, creating an exception to unity.  Everyone else's "full moon" looks like this: 
" border="0
obviating accuracy.

The decision, as relayed in St Constantine the Great's letter was in two parts:

1. We would not celebrate (or calculate) with the Jews. IOW, we would not use the Jewish calculations for Passover.

2. All Christian churches would celebrate Pascha on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox as calculated by the Church of Alexandria (because that city was blessed with the most accurate astrologers). Since the Equinox varies slightly year to year, a later council simplified the calculations by substituting March 21st for the actual date of the Equinox, meaning the actual Equinox either fell on that date or was separated from it by one or two days.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2696 on: January 04, 2015, 07:49:43 PM »
I would like to recommend a wonderful essay by Father Stephen Freeman on the critical role that the Church Calendar should play in our lives. Here is a teaser:

"As we entertain ourselves to death, we become more and more abstracted from both space and time. Wandering in a digital world we have forgotten how to return to ourselves and simply be present to a particular point. Tragically, that particular point is always (and only) the place where we meet God. The calendar is thus something like an “appointment device.” This feast, this day, this time in my life, if I will keep the appointment, I can meet God."

http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/2015/01/03/living-calendar/


Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2697 on: February 22, 2015, 05:31:43 PM »
I like the concept of "sanctification of time" which can be found in the writings of Abraham Joshua Heschel and Dom Gregory Dix.  Even more I like the concept of "sacrament of time" which can be found in the writings of Alexander Schmemann.

This year, 2015, the Julian and Gregorian Easters are a week apart because the Western moon is full on Friday April 3rd Gregorian, while the Eastern Orthodox moon (except in Finland) is not full until Tuesday April 7th Gregorian.  The Sunday following April 3rd is April 5th, that following April 7th is April 12th.  And that is all.  Any explanation in terms of the Rabbinic Jewish calendar is spurious.

The decision, as relayed in St Constantine the Great's letter was in two parts:

1. We would not celebrate (or calculate) with the Jews. IOW, we would not use the Jewish calculations for Passover.

2. All Christian churches would celebrate Pascha on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox as calculated by the Church of Alexandria (because that city was blessed with the most accurate astrologers). Since the Equinox varies slightly year to year, a later council simplified the calculations by substituting March 21st for the actual date of the Equinox, meaning the actual Equinox either fell on that date or was separated from it by one or two days.

I agree with the first, but I would qualify the second as follows: 

a) The Council gave no special privileges to Alexandria.  This myth sprang up in later generations.  What the Council seems to have expected, and what in any case the subsequent history shows actually happening, was that the bishops of the most important cities, in particular Rome and Alexandria, would agree on a date and each make it known within his territory.

b) The variability of the equinox may have been known to the most sophisticated astronomers at the time, but no Christian writer of the pre-Nicene and Nicene generations shows any awareness of it.  The closest anyone comes (and this is still far away) is Anatolius, who defines the equinox as an event lasting over several days.  His intention seemed to be to reconcile the March 21st party with the March 25th party by defining an equinox that could satisfy both.  (Here I follow those scholars who hold that Anatolius's surviving book is genuine, and not a later forgery.)  The Julian calendar date of March 21st was used because it was a good-enough approximation at the time for a lunar calendar in which everything is rounded off to the nearest day.


« Last Edit: February 22, 2015, 05:36:33 PM by Mockingbird »
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey