Author Topic: Old vs. New Calendar?  (Read 274855 times)

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Offline TheMathematician

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2835 on: May 12, 2015, 11:48:01 PM »
Honest question : would to be easier to have all churches change to the new calendar , or force all back to the old?

In other words, which of the above would result in the least schism.

Offline Maria

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2836 on: May 13, 2015, 02:12:37 AM »
Honest question : would to be easier to have all churches change to the new calendar , or force all back to the old?

In other words, which of the above would result in the least schism.

Dropping the New Calendar would be the best way to go.
The majority of Orthodox Christians are following the Old Calendar.

It would certainly be a step in the right (Orthodox) direction.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2837 on: May 13, 2015, 03:42:28 AM »
Honest question : would to be easier to have all churches change to the new calendar , or force all back to the old?

In other words, which of the above would result in the least schism.
Having all churches adopt the New Calendar, or having them all return to the Old... either way would result in no schism.

Honestly, though, why pit greater astronomical accuracy against Church unity when you can have both?
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2838 on: May 20, 2015, 10:46:58 AM »
Interesting article that says a main argument by Old Calendarists is based on a lie.

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/02/old-calendarist-lie-of-codex-772.html

Offline Dominika

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2839 on: May 21, 2015, 03:38:34 PM »
Interesting article that says a main argument by Old Calendarists is based on a lie.

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/02/old-calendarist-lie-of-codex-772.html
Thanks for sharing :)
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2840 on: May 21, 2015, 03:46:42 PM »
Interesting article that says a main argument by Old Calendarists is based on a lie.

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/02/old-calendarist-lie-of-codex-772.html

Unfortunately this translation is in many parts nigh unreadable.

Offline Dominika

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2841 on: May 21, 2015, 03:48:50 PM »
Interesting article that says a main argument by Old Calendarists is based on a lie.

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/02/old-calendarist-lie-of-codex-772.html

Unfortunately this translation is in many parts nigh unreadable.
Indeed, I've also observed that translation is not of the best quality; that's quite surprising, as the author of the blog usually prepares very good articles, translated very well. Anyway, better that than nothing
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Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2842 on: June 06, 2015, 11:53:02 AM »
Interesting article that says a main argument by Old Calendarists is based on a lie.

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/02/old-calendarist-lie-of-codex-772.html
This is old news.  At least some of the Old Calendarists are already aware that the text of the sigillon has been manipulated, and have found ways to argue their position without relying on that text.
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2843 on: June 06, 2015, 12:00:22 PM »
Honest question : would to be easier to have all churches change to the new calendar , or force all back to the old?

In other words, which of the above would result in the least schism.

Why not simply allow the church in each place to pick a paschalion--Julian, Gregorian, or Milankovic--without breaking communion with the others?  You already do this in the case of Finland.  Eventually everyone would go on the Gregorian or Milankovic paschalion because the Julian paschalion is so obviously defective.  Roger Bacon's complaint in the 13th century that "any rustic can see the error in the sky" is even truer today than it was then.  Now, even city-slickers can see the error in the sky.
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2844 on: June 06, 2015, 01:11:00 PM »
Honest question : would to be easier to have all churches change to the new calendar , or force all back to the old?

In other words, which of the above would result in the least schism.

Why not simply allow the church in each place to pick a paschalion--Julian, Gregorian, or Milankovic--without breaking communion with the others?  You already do this in the case of Finland.  Eventually everyone would go on the Gregorian or Milankovic paschalion because the Julian paschalion is so obviously defective.  Roger Bacon's complaint in the 13th century that "any rustic can see the error in the sky" is even truer today than it was then.  Now, even city-slickers can see the error in the sky.

The problem is that the church also mandated celebrating Pascha on the same dates. In practice, as we saw with Finland, the other churches aren't willing to break communion even over this. It seems they only care about the issue when groups in their own jurisdictions disagree with the reforms and refuse to follow along.

Also, I doubt city-slickers would have a clue if they didn't read about it on the internet. Who actually has that kind of astronomical knowledge outside of a few hobbyists and professionals?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 01:12:05 PM by Jonathan Gress »

Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2845 on: June 06, 2015, 01:55:09 PM »
Honest question : would to be easier to have all churches change to the new calendar , or force all back to the old?

In other words, which of the above would result in the least schism.

Why not simply allow the church in each place to pick a paschalion--Julian, Gregorian, or Milankovic--without breaking communion with the others?  You already do this in the case of Finland.  Eventually everyone would go on the Gregorian or Milankovic paschalion because the Julian paschalion is so obviously defective.  Roger Bacon's complaint in the 13th century that "any rustic can see the error in the sky" is even truer today than it was then.  Now, even city-slickers can see the error in the sky.

The problem is that the church also mandated celebrating Pascha on the same dates.
Which we will eventually get back to, if we allow ourselves a transition such as I proposed above.

Also, I doubt city-slickers would have a clue if they didn't read about it on the internet. Who actually has that kind of astronomical knowledge outside of a few hobbyists and professionals?

The only astronomical knowledge that one needs in order to see that the Julian paschalion is wrong is the knowledge that a full moon does not look like this:

Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2846 on: June 06, 2015, 02:27:07 PM »
That assumes you can see the moon through the smog. :D

But yeah, I agree if the whole switched at once to a more correct calendar, that would be better.

Offline Father H

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2847 on: June 08, 2015, 12:21:27 AM »
Honest question : would to be easier to have all churches change to the new calendar , or force all back to the old?

In other words, which of the above would result in the least schism.

Why not simply allow the church in each place to pick a paschalion--Julian, Gregorian, or Milankovic--without breaking communion with the others?  You already do this in the case of Finland.  Eventually everyone would go on the Gregorian or Milankovic paschalion because the Julian paschalion is so obviously defective.  Roger Bacon's complaint in the 13th century that "any rustic can see the error in the sky" is even truer today than it was then.  Now, even city-slickers can see the error in the sky.

The problem is that the church also mandated celebrating Pascha on the same dates.
Which we will eventually get back to, if we allow ourselves a transition such as I proposed above.

Also, I doubt city-slickers would have a clue if they didn't read about it on the internet. Who actually has that kind of astronomical knowledge outside of a few hobbyists and professionals?

The only astronomical knowledge that one needs in order to see that the Julian paschalion is wrong is the knowledge that a full moon does not look like this:



14 Aviv/Nisan was never a full moon by our modern definition.  This is because the new moon (1 Aviv/Nisan) was not, in ancient times, the dark moon, but rather what we call the "young crescent."   The new moon (new month) was in ancient times defined by the first appearance of the moon AFTER it was dark, and began to appear once again. 

Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2848 on: June 08, 2015, 10:29:00 PM »
14 Aviv/Nisan was never a full moon by our modern definition.  This is because the new moon (1 Aviv/Nisan) was not, in ancient times, the dark moon, but rather what we call the "young crescent."   The new moon (new month) was in ancient times defined by the first appearance of the moon AFTER it was dark, and began to appear once again.
An average synodic lunar month is 29.530589 days.  Half of this is 14.7652945 days.  If the first day of the lunar month begins nominally 24 hours after mean conjunction, then mean opposition will occur on the 14th day of the lunar month, around noon.

Here are the oppositions for 2013-2017 (UT), together with my computation of the 14th day of the month in the Gregorian lunar calendar:

Code: [Select]
Opposition (UT) 14th of Gregorian lunar month Day of Gregorian lunar month
on which opposition occurs
Jan 27 2013 Jan 27 14
Feb 25 Feb 25 14
Mar 27 Mar 27 14
Apr 25 Apr 25 14
May 25 May 25 14
Jun 23 Jun 23 14
Jul 22 Jul 23 13
Aug 21 Aug 21 14
Sep 19 Sep 20 13
Oct 18 Oct 19 13
Nov 17 Nov 18 13
Dec 17 Dec 17 14
Jan 16 2014 Jan 15 15
Feb 14 Feb 14 14
Mar 16 Mar 15 15
Apr 15 Apr 14 15
May 14 May 13 15
Jun 13 Jun 12 15
Jul 12 Jul 11 15
Aug 10 Aug 10 14
Sep  9 Sep  8 15
Oct  8 Oct  8 14
Nov  6 Nov  6 14
Dec  6 Dec  6 14
Jan  5 2015 Jan  4 15
Feb  3 Feb  3 14
Mar  5 Mar  4 15
Apr  4 Apr  3 15
Jun  2 Jun  1 15
Jul  2 Jun 30 16
Jul 31 Jul 30 15
Aug 29 Aug 28 15
Sep 28 Sep 28 14
Oct 27 Oct 26 15
Nov 25 Nov 25 14
Dec 25 Dec 25 14
Jan 24 2016 Jan 23 15
Feb 22 Feb 21 15
Mar 23 Mar 23 14
Apr 22 Apr 21 15
May 21 May 21 14
Jun 20 Jun 19 15
Jul 19 Jul 19 14
Aug 18 Aug 17 15
Sep 16 Sep 16 14
Oct 16 Oct 15 15
Nov 14 Nov 14 14
Dec 14 Dec 13 14
Jan 12 2017 Jan 12 14
Feb 11 Feb 11 14
Mar 12 Mar 12 14
Apr 11 Apr 11 14
May 10 May 10 14
Jun  9 Jun  9 14
Jul  9 Jul  8 15
Aug  7 Aug  7 14
Sep  6 Sep  5 15
Oct  5 Oct  5 14
Nov  4 Nov  3 15
Dec  3 Dec  3 14
As you see, the true opposition wobbles about the 14th day of the Gregorian lunar month, falling sometimes as early as the 13th, sometimes as late as the 16th.  The occasions when it falls on the 13th or 14th number 36 of 60, or a majority. This is about as good a correlation between the full moon and the 14th day of the calendar lunar month as can be expected from a lunar calendar based on the mean lunation and constrained to be cyclic in the civil calendar.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 10:29:55 PM by Mockingbird »
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2849 on: June 08, 2015, 10:35:53 PM »
Good God...
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

...Mor Ephrem has the infallible power of Christ over all doctrine taught on this board.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2850 on: June 08, 2015, 10:41:39 PM »
^ what he said.
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2851 on: July 04, 2015, 01:33:37 PM »
14 Aviv/Nisan was never a full moon by our modern definition.  This is because the new moon (1 Aviv/Nisan) was not, in ancient times, the dark moon, but rather what we call the "young crescent."   The new moon (new month) was in ancient times defined by the first appearance of the moon AFTER it was dark, and began to appear once again.
In my last post I demonstrated how it was rational to associate the full moon with the 14th day of the lunar month in the Gregorian lunar calendar.  Here I show that this association of the full moon with the 14th day of the month is consistent with our knowledge of 1st-century A.D. Judean practice.

Philo of Alexandria writes (died c. A.D. 50) in his Life of Moses 2.222,224 that

Quote from: Philo of Alexandria
Moses dates the first month of the year's revolution at the beginning of the spring equinox…In this month, about the fourteenth day, when the disc of the moon is becoming full, is held the commemoration of the crossing, a public festival called in Hebrew Pascha, on which the victims are not brought to the altar by the laity and sacrificed by the priests, but, as commanded by the law, the whole nation acts a priest, each individual bringing what he offers on his own behalf and dealing with it with his own hands.

The same author writes in Special Laws 2.155 that

Quote from: Philo of Alexandria
The feast [of Unleavened Bread] begins at the middle of the month, on the fifteenth day, when the moon is full, a day purposely chosen because then there is no darkness, but everything is continuously lighted up as the sun chines from morning to evening and the moon from evening to morning

So if the moon is "becoming full" on the 14th day, and the 15th day begins with the rising of a full moon at sunset, then arguably the moment of opposition must have occurred sometime on the 14th day, nearer to the end of the day than to the beginning.
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2852 on: July 04, 2015, 01:43:57 PM »
« Last Edit: July 04, 2015, 01:45:28 PM by Iconodule »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2853 on: July 06, 2015, 01:27:39 AM »

And how does that contribute to discussion of the subject of the calendar?
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2854 on: July 06, 2015, 07:04:00 AM »

And how does that contribute to discussion of the subject of the calendar?


Offline Father H

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2855 on: July 06, 2015, 11:12:51 AM »
14 Aviv/Nisan was never a full moon by our modern definition.  This is because the new moon (1 Aviv/Nisan) was not, in ancient times, the dark moon, but rather what we call the "young crescent."   The new moon (new month) was in ancient times defined by the first appearance of the moon AFTER it was dark, and began to appear once again.
An average synodic lunar month is 29.530589 days.  Half of this is 14.7652945 days.  If the first day of the lunar month begins nominally 24 hours after mean conjunction, then mean opposition will occur on the 14th day of the lunar month, around noon.

Here are the oppositions for 2013-2017 (UT), together with my computation of the 14th day of the month in the Gregorian lunar calendar:

Code: [Select]
Opposition (UT) 14th of Gregorian lunar month Day of Gregorian lunar month
on which opposition occurs
Jan 27 2013 Jan 27 14
Feb 25 Feb 25 14
Mar 27 Mar 27 14
Apr 25 Apr 25 14
May 25 May 25 14
Jun 23 Jun 23 14
Jul 22 Jul 23 13
Aug 21 Aug 21 14
Sep 19 Sep 20 13
Oct 18 Oct 19 13
Nov 17 Nov 18 13
Dec 17 Dec 17 14
Jan 16 2014 Jan 15 15
Feb 14 Feb 14 14
Mar 16 Mar 15 15
Apr 15 Apr 14 15
May 14 May 13 15
Jun 13 Jun 12 15
Jul 12 Jul 11 15
Aug 10 Aug 10 14
Sep  9 Sep  8 15
Oct  8 Oct  8 14
Nov  6 Nov  6 14
Dec  6 Dec  6 14
Jan  5 2015 Jan  4 15
Feb  3 Feb  3 14
Mar  5 Mar  4 15
Apr  4 Apr  3 15
Jun  2 Jun  1 15
Jul  2 Jun 30 16
Jul 31 Jul 30 15
Aug 29 Aug 28 15
Sep 28 Sep 28 14
Oct 27 Oct 26 15
Nov 25 Nov 25 14
Dec 25 Dec 25 14
Jan 24 2016 Jan 23 15
Feb 22 Feb 21 15
Mar 23 Mar 23 14
Apr 22 Apr 21 15
May 21 May 21 14
Jun 20 Jun 19 15
Jul 19 Jul 19 14
Aug 18 Aug 17 15
Sep 16 Sep 16 14
Oct 16 Oct 15 15
Nov 14 Nov 14 14
Dec 14 Dec 13 14
Jan 12 2017 Jan 12 14
Feb 11 Feb 11 14
Mar 12 Mar 12 14
Apr 11 Apr 11 14
May 10 May 10 14
Jun  9 Jun  9 14
Jul  9 Jul  8 15
Aug  7 Aug  7 14
Sep  6 Sep  5 15
Oct  5 Oct  5 14
Nov  4 Nov  3 15
Dec  3 Dec  3 14
As you see, the true opposition wobbles about the 14th day of the Gregorian lunar month, falling sometimes as early as the 13th, sometimes as late as the 16th.  The occasions when it falls on the 13th or 14th number 36 of 60, or a majority. This is about as good a correlation between the full moon and the 14th day of the calendar lunar month as can be expected from a lunar calendar based on the mean lunation and constrained to be cyclic in the civil calendar.

You missed the point.  The point is that today we consider the "dark moon" as the New Moon.  It was not so with the ancient Hebrews, for whom the New Moon was what we today call a "young crescent" (i.e. the New Moon was the day in which was moon began to appear again after having been completely darkened).  So showing the Gregorian lunar month means nothing since the first day is by definition at least one day earlier than it is in the Hebrew lunar month. 

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2856 on: July 06, 2015, 02:24:11 PM »

And how does that contribute to discussion of the subject of the calendar?


Does anyone give a damn that you don't give a damn?
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2857 on: July 06, 2015, 03:45:47 PM »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2858 on: July 06, 2015, 08:19:18 PM »

And how does that contribute to discussion of the subject of the calendar?


Does anyone give a damn that you don't give a damn?


Apparently you
And you apparently give a damn about me giving a damn that Iconodule gives enough of a damn to say he doesn't give a damn. ;) :laugh:
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2859 on: July 06, 2015, 08:22:14 PM »
untrue.


i just felt the need to stop the vicious cycle

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2860 on: July 06, 2015, 08:45:55 PM »
untrue.


i just felt the need to stop the vicious cycle
Well, ma'am, you just walked right into it and became a part of it. ;)
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline genesisone

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2861 on: July 06, 2015, 08:57:47 PM »
untrue.


i just felt the need to stop the vicious cycle
Well, ma'am, you just walked right into it and became a part of it. ;)
And the wheels on the bus go round and round....

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2862 on: July 06, 2015, 09:10:54 PM »
untrue.


i just felt the need to stop the vicious cycle
Well, ma'am, you just walked right into it and became a part of it. ;)
And the wheels on the bus go round and round....
Now that we've all had our bit of fun, can we all give enough of a damn to get this thread back on topic? :police:
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Offline Father H

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2863 on: July 06, 2015, 10:22:56 PM »
untrue.


i just felt the need to stop the vicious cycle
Well, ma'am, you just walked right into it and became a part of it. ;)
And the wheels on the bus go round and round....

Oh, I did not look at video but you put that song into my head.  For shame, for shame...

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2864 on: July 06, 2015, 11:36:30 PM »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2865 on: Yesterday at 02:34:31 AM »
At least someone is admitting that the calendar is crucial




http://www.rawstory.com/2015/07/duck-dynasty-star-si-robertson-atheists-dont-exist-because-they-use-calendars/
So how does that address the debate within Orthodox circles over whether to use the Old Calendar or the New?
Not all who wander are lost.