Author Topic: Old vs. New Calendar?  (Read 251692 times)

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Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2745 on: April 20, 2015, 09:26:01 PM »
Here is Nicephoras Gregoras's proposed adjustment to the paschalion.  The information is taken from Petavius's Uranologion of 1630.  All dates are in the Julian calendar.  The numbering of the years of the 19-year cycle is according to the western count.

Code: [Select]
Year Alexandrian paschal Gregoras's proposed
full moon PFM

1 April  5 April  3*
2 March 25 March 23
3 April 13 April 11
4 April  2 March 31
5 March 22 March 20
6 April 10 April  8
7 March 30 March 28
8 April 18 April 16
9 April  7 April  5
10 March 27 March 25
11 April 15 April 13
12 April  4 April  2
13 March 24 March 22
14 April 12 March 10
15 April  1 March 30
16 March 21 March 19
17 April  9 April  7
18 March 29 March 27
19 April 17 April 15

Petavius gives "April 23" here, but this seems to be a mistake, for no lunar calendar could behave in such a way.

Even today your camp could do worse than to adopt Gregoras's adjustments.  It would repair a little of your solar discrepancy, and about half of your lunar discrepancy.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 09:29:10 PM by Mockingbird »
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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2746 on: April 20, 2015, 09:27:57 PM »
I fail to see your point? That is not reasonable grounds to replace the word Pascha with easter.

You speak English. Easter is the English word for Pascha. This isn't complicated. Why do you replace "theos" with "God"? Or "ekklesia" with "church"?
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2747 on: April 20, 2015, 09:30:59 PM »
What if Orthodox used the English word "Passover" instead of both "Easter" and "Pascha"? 
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Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2748 on: April 20, 2015, 09:31:36 PM »
I fail to see your point? That is not reasonable grounds to replace the word Pascha with easter.

You speak English. Easter is the English word for Pascha. This isn't complicated. Why do you replace "theos" with "God"? Or "ekklesia" with "church"?


The examples your trying to make, makes no sense to me. Pascha works just fine, no need to adopt the word pass over or to use easter.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 09:32:30 PM by вєликаго »
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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2749 on: April 20, 2015, 09:32:02 PM »
What if Orthodox used the English word "Passover" instead of both "Easter" and "Pascha"?

Because Charles Martel would freak the hell out.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2750 on: April 20, 2015, 09:34:59 PM »
What if Orthodox used the English word "Passover" instead of both "Easter" and "Pascha"?

Because Charles Martel would freak the hell out.

May I presume you agree with me that this is acceptable? 
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Offline kelly

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2751 on: April 20, 2015, 09:36:17 PM »
What if Orthodox used the English word "Passover" instead of both "Easter" and "Pascha"?

Did St. Polycarp do this?
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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2752 on: April 20, 2015, 09:37:43 PM »
What if Orthodox used the English word "Passover" instead of both "Easter" and "Pascha"?

Because Charles Martel would freak the hell out.

May I presume you agree with me that this is acceptable?

Only if we can also refer to our churches as synagogues.
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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2753 on: April 20, 2015, 09:42:03 PM »
What if Orthodox used the English word "Passover" instead of both "Easter" and "Pascha"?
Because Charles Martel would freak the hell out.
May I presume you agree with me that this is acceptable?   

Passover is the word we use in English to describe the event indicated by the word "Pascha" in the OT and NT. 

But I do think we're making a mountain out of a molehill.  Let people use Pascha, Easter, or Passover.
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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2754 on: April 20, 2015, 09:44:12 PM »
I fail to see your point? That is not reasonable grounds to replace the word Pascha with easter.

You speak English. Easter is the English word for Pascha.

No.  Both "Easter" and "Passover" are used in English for "Pascha" considering "Pascha" is used in the LXX in reference to the Passover event.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2755 on: April 20, 2015, 09:45:16 PM »
I fail to see your point? That is not reasonable grounds to replace the word Pascha with easter.

You speak English. Easter is the English word for Pascha. This isn't complicated. Why do you replace "theos" with "God"? Or "ekklesia" with "church"?


The examples your trying to make, makes no sense to me.

That's fine. You also think laymen can ordain bishops, so logic isn't really your strong suit.
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Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2756 on: April 20, 2015, 09:47:17 PM »
I fail to see your point? That is not reasonable grounds to replace the word Pascha with easter.

You speak English. Easter is the English word for Pascha.

No.  Both "Easter" and "Passover" are used in English for "Pascha" considering "Pascha" is used in the LXX in reference to the Passover event.

True, but why are some trying to dictate church tradition to include the word easter? The church should create its own English traditions out of its own traditions, to continue those said traditions in English, if they are going to use English. There is no reason to be restricted to anther churches local traditions.  A church should hold to its own local traditions.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 09:50:18 PM by вєликаго »
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2757 on: April 20, 2015, 09:49:01 PM »
I fail to see your point? That is not reasonable grounds to replace the word Pascha with easter.

You speak English. Easter is the English word for Pascha. This isn't complicated. Why do you replace "theos" with "God"? Or "ekklesia" with "church"?

The examples your trying to make, makes no sense to me.

That's fine. You also think laymen can ordain bishops, so logic isn't really your strong suit.

shame on you for the libelous insults.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 09:53:55 PM by вєликаго »
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2758 on: April 20, 2015, 10:29:26 PM »
I fail to see your point? That is not reasonable grounds to replace the word Pascha with easter.

You speak English. Easter is the English word for Pascha.

No.  Both "Easter" and "Passover" are used in English for "Pascha" considering "Pascha" is used in the LXX in reference to the Passover event.

True, but why are some trying to dictate church tradition to include the word easter? The church should create its own English traditions out of its own traditions, to continue those said traditions in English, if they are going to use English. There is no reason to be restricted to anther churches local traditions.  A church should hold to its own local traditions.

The Church already did -- as I said before, long before Slavic Christianity was a twinkle in St. Vladimir's eye ...
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2759 on: April 20, 2015, 10:30:14 PM »
I fail to see your point? That is not reasonable grounds to replace the word Pascha with easter.

You speak English. Easter is the English word for Pascha.

No.  Both "Easter" and "Passover" are used in English for "Pascha" considering "Pascha" is used in the LXX in reference to the Passover event.

Yet the LXX is not in English.
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Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2760 on: April 20, 2015, 10:30:42 PM »
I fail to see your point? That is not reasonable grounds to replace the word Pascha with easter.

You speak English. Easter is the English word for Pascha.

No.  Both "Easter" and "Passover" are used in English for "Pascha" considering "Pascha" is used in the LXX in reference to the Passover event.

True, but why are some trying to dictate church tradition to include the word easter? The church should create its own English traditions out of its own traditions, to continue those said traditions in English, if they are going to use English. There is no reason to be restricted to anther churches local traditions.  A church should hold to its own local traditions.

The Church already did -- as I said before, long before Slavic Christianity was a twinkle in St. Vladimir's eye ...

My church never did, a local church that no longer exists did.
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2761 on: April 20, 2015, 10:32:17 PM »
I fail to see your point? That is not reasonable grounds to replace the word Pascha with easter.

You speak English. Easter is the English word for Pascha.

No.  Both "Easter" and "Passover" are used in English for "Pascha" considering "Pascha" is used in the LXX in reference to the Passover event.

Yet the LXX is not in English.

Your point? The church does not have a tradition of strict adherence to local language, even if it does have a tradition of using it.
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2762 on: April 20, 2015, 10:34:02 PM »
I fail to see your point? That is not reasonable grounds to replace the word Pascha with easter.

You speak English. Easter is the English word for Pascha.

No.  Both "Easter" and "Passover" are used in English for "Pascha" considering "Pascha" is used in the LXX in reference to the Passover event.

True, but why are some trying to dictate church tradition to include the word easter? The church should create its own English traditions out of its own traditions, to continue those said traditions in English, if they are going to use English. There is no reason to be restricted to anther churches local traditions.  A church should hold to its own local traditions.

The Church already did -- as I said before, long before Slavic Christianity was a twinkle in St. Vladimir's eye ...

My church never did, a local church that no longer exists did.

Granted, altho I do not think that Old Believer's choices in English is the topic of the thread.
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Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2763 on: April 20, 2015, 10:35:51 PM »
I fail to see your point? That is not reasonable grounds to replace the word Pascha with easter.

You speak English. Easter is the English word for Pascha.

No.  Both "Easter" and "Passover" are used in English for "Pascha" considering "Pascha" is used in the LXX in reference to the Passover event.

True, but why are some trying to dictate church tradition to include the word easter? The church should create its own English traditions out of its own traditions, to continue those said traditions in English, if they are going to use English. There is no reason to be restricted to anther churches local traditions.  A church should hold to its own local traditions.

The Church already did -- as I said before, long before Slavic Christianity was a twinkle in St. Vladimir's eye ...

My church never did, a local church that no longer exists did.

Granted, altho I do not think that Old Believer's choices in English is the topic of the thread.

the example I used, is valid for many other churches, the Greeks, the Nikonian Russians, the Serbs, or I imagine it is.
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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2764 on: April 20, 2015, 10:36:34 PM »
I fail to see your point? That is not reasonable grounds to replace the word Pascha with easter.

You speak English. Easter is the English word for Pascha.

No.  Both "Easter" and "Passover" are used in English for "Pascha" considering "Pascha" is used in the LXX in reference to the Passover event.

Yet the LXX is not in English.

Your point? The church does not have a tradition of strict adherence to local language, even if it does have a tradition of using it.

My point is that what the word is in Greek is not the question. Simply, there is a very ancient practice in England, Germany, and some other parts with a similar linguistic background to refer to πάσχα the ritual of the Jews as Passover and πάσχα the Resurrection as Easter. And for that matter this is reflected in the traditional translations of the Holy Bible into these tongues.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 10:40:11 PM by Porter ODoran »
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Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2765 on: April 20, 2015, 10:38:13 PM »
I fail to see your point? That is not reasonable grounds to replace the word Pascha with easter.

You speak English. Easter is the English word for Pascha.

No.  Both "Easter" and "Passover" are used in English for "Pascha" considering "Pascha" is used in the LXX in reference to the Passover event.

Yet the LXX is not in English.

Your point? The church does not have a tradition of strict adherence to local language, even if it does have a tradition of using it.

My point is that we know what the word is in Greek already. There is a very ancient practice in England, Germany, and some other parts with a similar linguistic background to refer to 'Paskha' the ritual of the Jews as Passover and 'Paskha' the Resurrection as 'Easter.' This is even reflected in the traditional translations of the Holy Bible into these tongues.

There is no need to adopt the local traditions of long dead local churches.  I think its best to avoid them.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 10:39:56 PM by вєликаго »
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2766 on: April 20, 2015, 10:41:09 PM »
What if Orthodox used the English word "Passover" instead of both "Easter" and "Pascha"?
Because Charles Martel would freak the hell out.
May I presume you agree with me that this is acceptable?   

Passover is the word we use in English to describe the event indicated by the word "Pascha" in the OT and NT. 

But I do think we're making a mountain out of a molehill.  Let people use Pascha, Easter, or Passover.

Aww, but I wanted to watch Charles flip out!!
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2767 on: April 20, 2015, 10:48:52 PM »
Here is Nicephoras Gregoras's proposed adjustment to the paschalion.  The information is taken from Petavius's Uranologion of 1630.  All dates are in the Julian calendar.  The numbering of the years of the 19-year cycle is according to the western count.

Code: [Select]
Year Alexandrian paschal Gregoras's proposed
full moon PFM

1 April  5 April  3*
2 March 25 March 23
3 April 13 April 11
4 April  2 March 31
5 March 22 March 20
6 April 10 April  8
7 March 30 March 28
8 April 18 April 16
9 April  7 April  5
10 March 27 March 25
11 April 15 April 13
12 April  4 April  2
13 March 24 March 22
14 April 12 March 10
15 April  1 March 30
16 March 21 March 19
17 April  9 April  7
18 March 29 March 27
19 April 17 April 15

Petavius gives "April 23" here, but this seems to be a mistake, for no lunar calendar could behave in such a way.

Even today your camp could do worse than to adopt Gregoras's adjustments.  It would repair a little of your solar discrepancy, and about half of your lunar discrepancy.

I love how you carry on your own monolog in the midst of everything else. It's quite charming, really.

And I remember reading that Nicephoras' proposals were reviewed and rejected at the time, even though they had nothing to do with the Pope or Papism. It's almost as if for centuries the Church didn't see astronomical accuracy as the most important aspect of the liturgical calendar...

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2768 on: April 21, 2015, 01:11:56 AM »
Insisting on saying "Pascha" rather than "Easter" strikes me as analogous to insisting that we "write" icons rather than paint them. The point is, when I say "Easter", you know perfectly well what I mean, or if I need to clarify I can say "Orthodox Easter" as opposed to "Western Easter". I think you could even make a good case that "Easter" is a spiritually healthy appropriation and sanctification of a pagan name, just as our calendar is an appropriation and sanctification of originally non-Christian (pagan and Jewish) systems of keeping time.

It is interesting, though, how English (and German) ended up using the pagan name for the feast, while even other Germanic cultures (e.g. Scandinavians) used the Hebraic Pascha (e.g. Danish "Paaske").

Etymologically, the name "Easter" is also appropriate because it is derived from an old root meaning "dawn". Christ is our Dawn, after all.

I disagree, there really is no need for all that, Pascha is the correct word, easter is not.

Considering "Easter" has been used by the Germanic-speaking Church since perhaps the late 300s -- which, by the way, is several centuries earlier than the conversion of the Slavs -- I don't think there's basis for criticism.

Are you a member of the german speaking church?

He said "Germanic". Such as the language you're currently using.

I'm not part of a Germanic church. Therefore why would I use or adopt Germanic church traditions?

You are speaking a Germanic language, therefore you should have no problem using Germanic words.

Why would I adopt the Germanic word for Pascha?
Nobody's asking you to. Just don't insist that everyone follow you.
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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2769 on: April 21, 2015, 01:13:49 AM »
I fail to see your point? That is not reasonable grounds to replace the word Pascha with easter.

You speak English. Easter is the English word for Pascha. This isn't complicated. Why do you replace "theos" with "God"? Or "ekklesia" with "church"?

The examples your trying to make, makes no sense to me.

That's fine. You also think laymen can ordain bishops, so logic isn't really your strong suit.

shame on you for the libelous insults.
How is it libelous?
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Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2770 on: April 21, 2015, 03:37:21 PM »
Insisting on saying "Pascha" rather than "Easter" strikes me as analogous to insisting that we "write" icons rather than paint them. The point is, when I say "Easter", you know perfectly well what I mean, or if I need to clarify I can say "Orthodox Easter" as opposed to "Western Easter". I think you could even make a good case that "Easter" is a spiritually healthy appropriation and sanctification of a pagan name, just as our calendar is an appropriation and sanctification of originally non-Christian (pagan and Jewish) systems of keeping time.

It is interesting, though, how English (and German) ended up using the pagan name for the feast, while even other Germanic cultures (e.g. Scandinavians) used the Hebraic Pascha (e.g. Danish "Paaske").

Etymologically, the name "Easter" is also appropriate because it is derived from an old root meaning "dawn". Christ is our Dawn, after all.

I disagree, there really is no need for all that, Pascha is the correct word, easter is not.

Considering "Easter" has been used by the Germanic-speaking Church since perhaps the late 300s -- which, by the way, is several centuries earlier than the conversion of the Slavs -- I don't think there's basis for criticism.

Are you a member of the german speaking church?

He said "Germanic". Such as the language you're currently using.

I'm not part of a Germanic church. Therefore why would I use or adopt Germanic church traditions?

You are speaking a Germanic language, therefore you should have no problem using Germanic words.

Why would I adopt the Germanic word for Pascha?
Nobody's asking you to. Just don't insist that everyone follow you.

Nope, I never insist that. I do, however, strongly suggest that people follow Christ, Jesus. The Old Believers are His Church.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 03:37:51 PM by вєликаго »
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2771 on: April 21, 2015, 05:31:20 PM »
Nope, I never insist that. I do, however, strongly suggest that people follow Christ, Jesus. The Old Believers are His Church.

The ones with priests or the ones without priests?
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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