OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 30, 2014, 02:22:28 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Old vs. New Calendar?  (Read 204403 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 6,000


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #2430 on: May 10, 2014, 08:56:24 AM »

Old Calenda 4 LIFE.

New rap album?
Logged

Jonathan Gress
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,072


« Reply #2431 on: May 10, 2014, 09:32:00 AM »

Has anyone ever heard that the Church of Jerusalem ever converted to the Revised Julian Calendar? I've never read that anywhere, and I am aware it advised the Pan-Orthodox Congress of 1923 via telegram that that it could not convert because of their long standing agreement for use of the Shrines with the Roman Catholics and several Oriental Orthodox Churches. A guy on facebook is telling me this about the Church of Jerusalem. He claims it converted to the Revised Julian Calendar for one year and the Holy Light did not manifest that year, has anyone ever heard of this?

Yes I think it was about 1971 or thereabouts, under Patriarch Benedict, who also brought the Jerusalem Patriarchate into the World Council of Churches. His successor Patriarch Diodorus then withdrew the JP from the WCC.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,458



« Reply #2432 on: May 10, 2014, 09:37:50 AM »

By the way, this is an important development. The Polish Orthodox Church will return to the Old Calendar beginning with the Feast of All Saints. http://byztex.blogspot.ru/2014/03/polish-orthodox-church-returns-to-old.html This is unprecedented, for a new calendar body to return to the old calendar.
since 97% of the Church was on the Old Calendar before, it hardly left to return.

Sure, if you accept highly inflated figures for the numbers of Russian Orthodox members.
I was talking about Polish Orthodox members.  As for the Russians, you have to distinguish the Ukrainians, etc. in the Patriarchate of Mosocw, all of whom are on the Old Calendar, and all of whom outnumber the rest of us by a great deal.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Jonathan Gress
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,072


« Reply #2433 on: May 10, 2014, 09:40:21 AM »

By the way, this is an important development. The Polish Orthodox Church will return to the Old Calendar beginning with the Feast of All Saints. http://byztex.blogspot.ru/2014/03/polish-orthodox-church-returns-to-old.html This is unprecedented, for a new calendar body to return to the old calendar.
since 97% of the Church was on the Old Calendar before, it hardly left to return.

Sure, if you accept highly inflated figures for the numbers of Russian Orthodox members.
I was talking about Polish Orthodox members.  As for the Russians, you have to distinguish the Ukrainians, etc. in the Patriarchate of Mosocw, all of whom are on the Old Calendar, and all of whom outnumber the rest of us by a great deal.

Wait you're saying 97% of the Polish Church was already on the Old Calendar before this proposed change?
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,458



« Reply #2434 on: May 10, 2014, 09:42:36 AM »

If we really want to get technical about events such as Pascha on the calendar, perhaps we should examine what EO St. Polycarp celebrated, which is the passover feast - not the Sunday after.  That is the true "old calendar".
You do realize that the Quartodecimans were condemned as heretics? Or, in your fascination with those alternate "successions" in  groups the Church has also condemned for heresy, does that fact really matter to you?
What about EO St. Polycarp, he argued for the passover?
Seeing that the Church didn't condemn the Quartodecimans retroactively but chose only to condemn those who held obstinately to their contrary practice even when the Church solidified its stance against them, I'm not sure this is a problem.
Btw, I think the problem of the Quartodecimans was that they celebrated the death date as the feast of the Resurrection, Christ dying on the 14th Nisan (hence Quartodeci).  Passover is the next day (which would be both the angel of death passing over and the harrowing of hell).
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,458



« Reply #2435 on: May 10, 2014, 09:43:20 AM »

By the way, this is an important development. The Polish Orthodox Church will return to the Old Calendar beginning with the Feast of All Saints. http://byztex.blogspot.ru/2014/03/polish-orthodox-church-returns-to-old.html This is unprecedented, for a new calendar body to return to the old calendar.
since 97% of the Church was on the Old Calendar before, it hardly left to return.

Sure, if you accept highly inflated figures for the numbers of Russian Orthodox members.
I was talking about Polish Orthodox members.  As for the Russians, you have to distinguish the Ukrainians, etc. in the Patriarchate of Mosocw, all of whom are on the Old Calendar, and all of whom outnumber the rest of us by a great deal.

Wait you're saying 97% of the Polish Church was already on the Old Calendar before this proposed change?
That is what I saw reported.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Anglican (Episcopal Church)
Posts: 103



« Reply #2436 on: May 10, 2014, 02:25:03 PM »

Passover is the next day
by which ialmisry meant that Passover is the 15th of Nisan. 

This is not quite right.  Strictly speaking, the Passover is the 14th of Nisan.  So Leviticus:

Quote from: Leviticus_23.5
In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month between the two evenings, is the Lord's passover.  And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread.

Careful first-century writers, such as Philo, observe this distinction. 

Since ancient times, however, "Passover" has been used loosely to refer to the feast of unleavened bread (Luke 22.1), and "Unleavened Bread" was sometimes loosely used to refer to the Passover!  (Mark 14.12).  In modern times, "Passover" has also come mean the 15th of Nisan itself, and the day marked as "Passover" on all our calendars is indeed the 15th of Nisan in the Rabbinic calendar.   But most of the early Christian writers on the calendar are more precise, using the word "Pascha" in a mathematical context to refer to the 14th day (not the 15th) of the 1st lunar month of springtime. 

Since this thread is partly about calendar mathematics, the distinction needs to be maintained here if nowhere else.
Logged

Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,639



« Reply #2437 on: May 11, 2014, 03:24:10 PM »


Or an awesome tattoo idea?

Christianity. Only with different calendar.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,931


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #2438 on: May 12, 2014, 06:08:31 PM »

Has anyone ever heard that the Church of Jerusalem ever converted to the Revised Julian Calendar? I've never read that anywhere, and I am aware it advised the Pan-Orthodox Congress of 1923 via telegram that that it could not convert because of their long standing agreement for use of the Shrines with the Roman Catholics and several Oriental Orthodox Churches. A guy on facebook is telling me this about the Church of Jerusalem. He claims it converted to the Revised Julian Calendar for one year and the Holy Light did not manifest that year, has anyone ever heard of this?
Of course we believe everything we see on Facebook, right? Right? Wink
Logged
Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Anglican (Episcopal Church)
Posts: 103



« Reply #2439 on: June 28, 2014, 02:07:02 PM »

If we really want to get technical about events such as Pascha on the calendar, perhaps we should examine what EO St. Polycarp celebrated, which is the passover feast - not the Sunday after.  That is the true "old calendar".
You do realize that the Quartodecimans were condemned as heretics? Or, in your fascination with those alternate "successions" in  groups the Church has also condemned for heresy, does that fact really matter to you?
As scholar Sacha Stern has pointed out, applying the word "quartodeciman" to the late 2nd-century controversy over the Roman and Asian practices is anachronistic.  In the account in History 5.23ff, Eusebius never uses the word "quartodeciman"--at least not in my English translation--nor do any of the authors he quotes.  The word cannot confidently be held to have existed before the later 4th century.  (A work attributed to a 3rd century author, Hippolytus, uses "quartodeciman" in the caption to a chapter on the practice, but not in the text of the chapter itself.  A caption may be the work of a later editor.)  

Note also that the Asian practice focused on the 14th of Nisan, not on the day of the Passover Seder, which is the 15th. Eusebius calls the Asians' fast-breaking day "the fourteenth day of the lunar month...the day on which the Jews had been commanded to sacrifice the lamb" -- the day the lamb was slain, not the day on which it was eaten.  Polycrates, in the letter quoted by Eusebius, call it "the day the people put away the leaven."  The Mishnah, a source roughly contemporary with Polycrates,  indicates that the day of putting away the leaven is the 13th/14th of the lunar month, not the 14th/15th.  

Quote from: Mishnah
On the eve of the fourteenth day of Nisan men search for leaven by candlelight....Rabbi Meir said, "men may eat of it [leaven] until the fifth hour, and burn it at the beginning of the sixth....Rabban Gamaliel said, "men may eat ordinary food till the fourth hour, heave-offering until the fifth hour, but they burned the leaven at the sixth hour."

This is why I suspect, notwithstanding the views of many scholars (for a recent example, Bradshaw, though he relies entirely on secondary sources for his argument), that the Asian practice was to break the fast at the sunset that ended the 13th and began the 14th, or perhaps during the hours of daylight on the 14th, and not, as the scholars hold, during the nighttime hours that began the 15th.  But even if my hunch be wrong, it looks to me as though the Sunday custom is just as ancient as the Asian custom.  Sunday was a Christian holiday from very early.  The Christian Sunday assembly is attested well before any annual Christian festivals are.  (At least one scholar, Clemens Leonhard, tries to explain away the New Testament evidence for the Christian Lord's day, but I find his argument unconvincing).  It would have been just as easy for the earliest Christians to mark the annual Sunday of Unleavened Bread for special esteem as it would have been for them to mark out the 14th (or 15th) of Nisan for an annual festival.  

So the late-2nd century Asian practice was certainly old by the time it became controversial, but I can't find any proof that it was older than the Sunday practice.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2014, 02:10:04 PM by Mockingbird » Logged

Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey
Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Anglican (Episcopal Church)
Posts: 103



« Reply #2440 on: June 28, 2014, 02:08:16 PM »

Oops. Wrong button again.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2014, 02:08:59 PM by Mockingbird » Logged

Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey
Tags: old calendar New Calendar calendar computus paschalion ecclesiastical moon nomikon faska cheval mort 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.095 seconds with 39 queries.