Author Topic: Old vs. New Calendar?  (Read 850726 times)

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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2925 on: May 30, 2016, 12:22:15 PM »
[The foundations of Pascha are pretty far from a Spring Full Moon celebration.
The foundations of Easter are closely liked to the season, the equinox, and the lunar phase.  In a way, the season, the sun, and the moon can be deemed to be celebrating Easter.  Some early fathers considered the season and the luminaries to be connected to the resurrection from the time of their creation.  The earth was created in springtime, since it "brought forth" vegetation.  The moon was created full because God would not make anything imperfect.  The night and the day, or for some, the sun and the moon, were created at equinox because God would not make them unequal.  The passion and the resurrection inaugurate the new creation, so its season recapitulates the first creation.
This is very interesting. I don' t think there is any reason, however, to be stuck to the initial foundations of the feast, which are relevant but IMO belong to history. They would make things more confusing, wouldn't make the celebration more special, significant or holy, and the average parishioner would be very far from acknowledging this particularity. Maybe if people had done it as soon as Pascha crossed the Equator it would be nice, but now it's been 500 years of Christianity and 200 of Orthodoxy.
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Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2926 on: August 05, 2016, 08:41:58 PM »
[The foundations of Pascha are pretty far from a Spring Full Moon celebration.
The foundations of Easter are closely liked to the season, the equinox, and the lunar phase.  In a way, the season, the sun, and the moon can be deemed to be celebrating Easter.  Some early fathers considered the season and the luminaries to be connected to the resurrection from the time of their creation.  The earth was created in springtime, since it "brought forth" vegetation.  The moon was created full because God would not make anything imperfect.  The night and the day, or for some, the sun and the moon, were created at equinox because God would not make them unequal.  The passion and the resurrection inaugurate the new creation, so its season recapitulates the first creation.
This is very interesting. I don' t think there is any reason, however, to be stuck to the initial foundations of the feast, which are relevant but IMO belong to history. They would make things more confusing, wouldn't make the celebration more special, significant or holy, and the average parishioner would be very far from acknowledging this particularity. Maybe if people had done it as soon as Pascha crossed the Equator it would be nice, but now it's been 500 years of Christianity and 200 of Orthodoxy.
I hold that the festival should continue to be linked to the Spring season in one of two ways.  Either:

(1) The Paschal full moon for everyone should fall when "the sun is in [the astrological sign of] Aries", as Josephus wrote; in other words, when the sun's ecliptic longitude is between 0 and 30 degrees inclusive, or:

(2) Christians north of the tropic of Capricorn should celebrate as in policy (1) above, while Christians south of the Tropic of Capricorn should set the Paschal full moon to fall when the sun is in the astrological sign of Libra.
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2927 on: October 08, 2016, 02:20:11 PM »
This article is correct as far as it goes, but there are two points on which I think it lacking:

1) It concentrates on the solar side of the calendar change and completely ignores the lunar side.  Lillius and Clavius didn't just knock 7 days of the solar calendar, they also made the moon to be about 3 days older than the old Julian tables had it;

2) The author seems unaware of the distinction between the overall average tropical year of 365.2422 days and the Spring equinox tropical year of 365.2424 days.  The Gregorian year of 365.2425 days seems to be intended to approximate the latter, not the former.

http://www.vox.com/2016/10/4/13147306/434th-gregorian-calendar-anniversary-google-doogle
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2928 on: January 26, 2017, 10:10:44 PM »
Call me naïve, I've never understood how when we celebrate Easter became more important than that we celebrate Easter.
Someone in the corridors of Roman power strongly disagrees, for the following hysterical law occurs in the Theodosian Code:

Quote from: Theodosian Code 16.6.6.1
Illud etiam, quod a retro principibus dissimulatum est et in iniuriam sacrae legis ab exsecrandis hominibus agitatur et ab his potissimum, qui, novatianorum collegio desertores ac refugae, auctores se quam potiores memoratae sectae haberi contendunt, quibus ex crimine nomen est, cum se protopaschitas appellari desiderent, inultum esse non patimur. Sed si alio die novatiani, quam quo orthodoxorum antistites, praedicandum ac memorabilem saeculis diem paschae duxerint celebrandum, auctores illius conventionis deportatio pariter ac proscriptio subsequatur, contra quos acrior etiam poena fuerat promulganda, si quidem hoc delicto etiam haereticorum vesaniam superent, qui alio tempore quam quo orthodoxi paschae festivitatem observantes alium paene dei filium, non quem colimus venerantur. Dat. XII kal. april. Constantinopoli Lucio v. c. cons. (413 Mar. 21).

which means

Quote from: Theodosian Code 16.6.6.1
That which was formerly overlooked by the princes, and is done to the injury of sacred law by worthless men -- and by those especially, who [are] deserters and refugees from the congregation of the Novatians, [yet] hold that they are rather to be considered as the authors of the aforementioned sect, [and] who are named after their crime, since they desire to be called protopaschites -- we will not suffer it to be unpunished.  If the Novatians order that the famous and ever-memorable Easter Day is to be celebrated on another day than that on which the bishops of the orthodox [order it], let deportation and proscription equally follow the authors of this custom.  A sterner penalty was to be promulgated against them [than against other heretics], because they who, observing the festival of Easter at another time than that on which the orthodox [observe it], by this crime even exceed the madness of the heretics, venerating almost another Son of God than him whom we worship. Given at Constantinople on the 12th Kalends of April in the year of Lucius, vir clarissimus, Consul (March 21 413).
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2929 on: February 23, 2017, 09:50:01 PM »
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-j-dunn-phd/what-makes-orthodox-easter-different_b_9826838.html

From the article, referring to the Julian Easter date in 2016:

Quote
Orthodox Easter came very late this year. Orthodox Easter often falls on a different date than everybody else. This is the most obvious difference, and it is also the stupidest. There are clear historical reasons for this (the best explanation I have ever read can be found on PublicOrthodoxy.org), but in a nutshell we would rather violate the spirit of Nicaea than admit the pope was right about something. Its only theological significance is that it evinces how stubborn and prideful we can be as an institution.

Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2930 on: April 30, 2017, 10:34:32 AM »
A recent article:

http://orthodox-theology.com/media/PDF/1.2017/Erekle.Tsakadze.pdf

The English translation was apparently not done by a native speaker of English, but the meaning is always clear.

The Georgian original is said to be somewhere near here:

http://www.orthodoxtheology.ge/paschalion

From the article:

Quote
One of the main criticisms of the Gregorian paschalion from us, the Orthodox, is the fact that in some years the Easter Sunday calculated by the Gregorian method is previous to the Jewish Passover. However, historical evidence and different credible sources presented here prove that this case is not dealt with at all in the canonical criteria for the Easter date determination. Hence, this criticism is groundless.
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2931 on: April 30, 2017, 11:51:11 PM »
Mockingbird, I don't want to sound prying, but why all this obsession with the Orthodox Paschalion? You basically just post about it, and even your signature seems to talk about it in an ancient language.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2017, 11:52:08 PM by RaphaCam »
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Offline TaiKamiya720

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2932 on: May 23, 2017, 08:15:24 PM »
Old Calendarists and those in communion with the mainstream Orthodox but defend the Old Calendar claim the Church Canons say that the Church must follow the Old Julian Calendar. Is there any evidence that this is really true?
The Calendar issue is causing me to occasionally switch between an ACROD parish that uses the Old Calendar and a Greek Orthodox (GOARCH) parish. I do know that for sure, the Canons do sanction the date of Easter/Pascha and related dates like Lent and Pentecost to make sure Easter falls on or after the Jewish Passover, to make it most accurate to the real date of Jesus' passion and resurrection.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 08:19:44 PM by TaiKamiya720 »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2933 on: May 23, 2017, 09:42:26 PM »
Old Calendarists and those in communion with the mainstream Orthodox but defend the Old Calendar claim the Church Canons say that the Church must follow the Old Julian Calendar. Is there any evidence that this is really true?
The Calendar issue is causing me to occasionally switch between an ACROD parish that uses the Old Calendar and a Greek Orthodox (GOARCH) parish. I do know that for sure, the Canons do sanction the date of Easter/Pascha and related dates like Lent and Pentecost to make sure Easter falls on or after the Jewish Passover, to make it most accurate to the real date of Jesus' passion and resurrection.

They're referring to language that rejected the Gregorian calendar reforms. Is it "really true" that this means "the Church must follow the Old Julian Calendar"? Well, in the estimation of many: of course not; but that's just the issue: some people say yes.

[Edited to add:] Now, there can be a variety of reasons people prefer the Old Calendar. And even people who think the canons demand it don't have to schismate. I live in a town with two parishes each of which observes a different Calendar -- a situation that is common to find in any given town -- and we're in full communion and would never think we couldn't be.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 09:45:09 PM by Porter ODoran »
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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2934 on: May 23, 2017, 10:33:28 PM »
The thing I find odd is how so much is made over Julian vs. Gregorian (or modified versions), when significant differences existed or were debated from ancient times till now, like how the year they lived in was spoken of, which changed a bunch of times through the years; or in what year Jesus was born, which has also been disputed since ancient times. Obviously for purposes of festivals, fasts, readings, saints days, etc. the calendar has a utilitarian role... but it's not like all Christians in all places have ever had the same calendar or time keeping scheme.

The part about a common Easter was originally not in a canon at Nicea, but in the "Synodal Letter" sent to Alexandria telling them about what had happened at the Council; the part about Easter said:

Quote
We further proclaim to you the good news of the agreement concerning the holy Easter, that this particular also has through your prayers been rightly settled; so that all our brethren in the East who formerly followed the custom of the Jews are henceforth to celebrate the said most sacred feast of Easter at the same time with the Romans and yourselves and all those who have observed Easter from the beginning.

Easter is a separate issue from the calendar in general though, and had been in dispute for a couple centuries at that point. They wanted to get all Christians celebrating Easter at the same time, which is understandable, but it seems from what happened at various times, such as with the dispute between Rome and Asia Minor in the early 2nd century (as described by Eusebius in Ecclesiastical History, 5.23-24), that unity and peace was considered more important than perfect uniformity:

Quote
Synods and assemblies of bishops were held on this account, and all, with one consent, through mutual correspondence drew up an ecclesiastical decree, that the mystery of the resurrection of the Lord should be celebrated on no other but the Lord's day, and that we should observe the close of the paschal fast on this day only. There is still extant a writing of those who were then assembled in Palestine, over whom Theophilus, bishop of Cæsarea, and Narcissus, bishop of Jerusalem, presided. And there is also another writing extant of those who were assembled at Rome to consider the same question, which bears the name of Bishop Victor; also of the bishops in Pontus over whom Palmas, as the oldest, presided; and of the parishes in Gaul of which Irenæus was bishop, and of those in Osrhoëne and the cities there; and a personal letter of Bacchylus, bishop of the church at Corinth, and of a great many others, who uttered the same opinion and judgment, and cast the same vote...

But the bishops of Asia, led by Polycrates, decided to hold to the old custom handed down to them. He himself, in a letter which he addressed to Victor and the church of Rome, set forth in the following words the tradition which had come down to him...

Thereupon Victor, who presided over the church at Rome, immediately attempted to cut off from the common unity the parishes of all Asia, with the churches that agreed with them, as heterodox; and he wrote letters and declared all the brethren there wholly excommunicate.

But this did not please all the bishops. And they besought him to consider the things of peace, and of neighborly unity and love. Words of theirs are extant, sharply rebuking Victor.

Among them was [St.] Irenæus, who, sending letters in the name of the brethren in Gaul over whom he presided, maintained that the mystery of the resurrection of the Lord should be observed only on the Lord's day. He fittingly admonishes Victor that he should not cut off whole churches of God which observed the tradition of an ancient custom and after many other words he proceeds as follows:

For the controversy is not only concerning the day, but also concerning the very manner of the fast. For some think that they should fast one day, others two, yet others more; some, moreover, count their day as consisting of forty hours day and night.

And this variety in its observance has not originated in our time; but long before in that of our ancestors. It is likely that they did not hold to strict accuracy, and thus formed a custom for their posterity according to their own simplicity and peculiar mode. Yet all of these lived none the less in peace, and we also live in peace with one another; and the disagreement in regard to the fast confirms the agreement in the faith.

He adds to this the following account, which I may properly insert:

Among these were the presbyters before Soter, who presided over the church which you now rule. We mean Anicetus, and Pius, and Hyginus, and Telesphorus, and Xystus. They neither observed it themselves, nor did they permit those after them to do so. And yet though not observing it, they were none the less at peace with those who came to them from the parishes in which it was observed; although this observance was more opposed to those who did not observe it.

But none were ever cast out on account of this form; but the presbyters before you who did not observe it, sent the eucharist to those of other parishes who observed it.

And when the blessed Polycarp was at Rome in the time of Anicetus, and they disagreed a little about certain other things, they immediately made peace with one another, not caring to quarrel over this matter. For neither could Anicetus persuade Polycarp not to observe what he had always observed with John the disciple of our Lord, and the other apostles with whom he had associated; neither could Polycarp persuade Anicetus to observe it as he said that he ought to follow the customs of the presbyters that had preceded him.

But though matters were in this shape, they communed together, and Anicetus conceded the administration of the eucharist in the church to Polycarp, manifestly as a mark of respect. And they parted from each other in peace, both those who observed, and those who did not, maintaining the peace of the whole church.

Thus Irenæus, who truly was well named, became a peacemaker in this matter, exhorting and negotiating in this way in behalf of the peace of the churches. And he conferred by letter about this mooted question, not only with Victor, but also with most of the other rulers of the churches.

St. Irenaeus speaks of those who differed following "the tradition of an ancient custom," but in regards to certain elements there was no uniform ancient custom, but different customs existed in different places, depending on where in the world that you were. The old calendarist arguments rely heavily on excluding areas outside the Mediterranean world, and also significant lengths of time, during and at which a much larger variety of practices can be seen. Orthodox often speak harshly about Latinizing, but there was a good deal of attempted Byzantinizing of the Eastern Local Churches going on as well.

In the end, peace and unity was preferred over trying to force changes by viewing differences as schisms or making declarations about heterodoxy. St. Ireneaus said: "the disagreement in regard to the fast confirms the agreement in the faith." It'd be good for everyone to be on the "same page" regarding Easter and the calendar, but there being disagreement doesn't mean that the disagreement has to lead to division.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 10:35:25 PM by Asteriktos »
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Offline Jackson02

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2935 on: May 24, 2017, 02:03:04 AM »
I believe that the Old calendar is the true Orthodox calendar, the introduction of the New calendar in my opinion was wrong.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 02:04:34 AM by Jackson02 »
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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2936 on: May 24, 2017, 09:12:02 AM »
I believe that the Old calendar is the true Orthodox calendar

The Old Calendar? There are several. Old Calendarism is historical revisionism posturing as traditionalism.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2937 on: May 24, 2017, 01:06:48 PM »
... historical revisionism posturing as traditionalism.

Normal for reactionary movements of all kinds.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2938 on: May 24, 2017, 01:13:35 PM »
I believe that the Old calendar is the true Orthodox calendar, the introduction of the New calendar in my opinion was wrong.

I respect what you're saying and am no fan of novelties, yet I'm curious how you'd excuse using a calendar that's become so far misaligned with the heavens. The prophets and the psalmist speak of the constellations, and even our Lord refers to the skies as a sign. If the Nativity slowly becomes weeks away from observable mid-winter, when the ancient Christians observed it, just what do you think should be done?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2939 on: May 25, 2017, 08:12:08 PM »
I do know that for sure, the Canons do sanction the date of Easter/Pascha and related dates like Lent and Pentecost to make sure Easter falls on or after the Jewish Passover, to make it most accurate to the real date of Jesus' passion and resurrection.
If by "Jewish Passover" you mean "the 15th of Nisan according to the Rabbinic Jewish calendar", then you are mistaken.  The canons do not require any dependence of the Easter computation on the Rabbinic computation of Unleavened Bread.  The Easter computation is entirely self-consistent and makes no reference to the Rabbinic or any other external calendar system.
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2940 on: May 25, 2017, 10:04:31 PM »
I believe that the Old calendar is the true Orthodox calendar, the introduction of the New calendar in my opinion was wrong.
Everything went to pot when we started using the sun for our calendar instead of the moon.  Stupid sun.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2941 on: May 26, 2017, 12:28:11 AM »
I do know that for sure, the Canons do sanction the date of Easter/Pascha and related dates like Lent and Pentecost to make sure Easter falls on or after the Jewish Passover, to make it most accurate to the real date of Jesus' passion and resurrection.
If by "Jewish Passover" you mean "the 15th of Nisan according to the Rabbinic Jewish calendar", then you are mistaken.  The canons do not require any dependence of the Easter computation on the Rabbinic computation of Unleavened Bread.  The Easter computation is entirely self-consistent and makes no reference to the Rabbinic or any other external calendar system.

True, which was a huge accomplishment to implement ecumene-wide by folks without real astronomical experts among them. However, don't deny the important historical connection to the Passover and the Hebrew calendar.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Agabus

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2942 on: May 26, 2017, 09:08:19 AM »
... historical revisionism posturing as traditionalism.

Normal for reactionary movements of all kinds.

Right.

And despite all the posturing from the Internet polemicists, how much does the issue actually affect life at the parish level? If you're not pathological, not at all.
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Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2943 on: May 26, 2017, 10:33:23 PM »
I do know that for sure, the Canons do sanction the date of Easter/Pascha and related dates like Lent and Pentecost to make sure Easter falls on or after the Jewish Passover, to make it most accurate to the real date of Jesus' passion and resurrection.
If by "Jewish Passover" you mean "the 15th of Nisan according to the Rabbinic Jewish calendar", then you are mistaken.  The canons do not require any dependence of the Easter computation on the Rabbinic computation of Unleavened Bread.  The Easter computation is entirely self-consistent and makes no reference to the Rabbinic or any other external calendar system.

True, which was a huge accomplishment to implement ecumene-wide by folks without real astronomical experts among them. However, don't deny the important historical connection to the Passover and the Hebrew calendar.
To speak of "the" Hebrew calendar, as if there has only ever been one that has been always the same, is precisely the sort of careless thinking that we need to avoid in this context.

What most people mean nowadays when they speak of "the" Hebrew calendar is the Rabbinic calendar, which is a very late development.  Though it has some older elements, its mathematics were devised in the period A.D. 700 - A.D. 900.  (The attribution to one fourth-century "Patriarch Hillel II" is utterly bogus.)  To this Rabbinic "Hebrew calendar" our paschalia, Julian and Gregorian, have no historical connection whatever.
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2944 on: May 26, 2017, 10:54:04 PM »
I do know that for sure, the Canons do sanction the date of Easter/Pascha and related dates like Lent and Pentecost to make sure Easter falls on or after the Jewish Passover, to make it most accurate to the real date of Jesus' passion and resurrection.
If by "Jewish Passover" you mean "the 15th of Nisan according to the Rabbinic Jewish calendar", then you are mistaken.  The canons do not require any dependence of the Easter computation on the Rabbinic computation of Unleavened Bread.  The Easter computation is entirely self-consistent and makes no reference to the Rabbinic or any other external calendar system.

True, which was a huge accomplishment to implement ecumene-wide by folks without real astronomical experts among them. However, don't deny the important historical connection to the Passover and the Hebrew calendar.
To speak of "the" Hebrew calendar, as if there has only ever been one that has been always the same, is precisely the sort of careless thinking that we need to avoid in this context.

What most people mean nowadays when they speak of "the" Hebrew calendar is the Rabbinic calendar, which is a very late development.  Though it has some older elements, its mathematics were devised in the period A.D. 700 - A.D. 900.  (The attribution to one fourth-century "Patriarch Hillel II" is utterly bogus.)  To this Rabbinic "Hebrew calendar" our paschalia, Julian and Gregorian, have no historical connection whatever.

Irrelevant.

I wonder what in your mind "Pascha" means.
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