Author Topic: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox  (Read 8038 times)

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Offline adampjr

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Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« on: January 30, 2013, 05:53:35 AM »
Firstly, I am not trying to just slam the guy personally. But I find the following concerning, and wonder if this is type of thing prevelant in Orthodoxy. I say this as a serious inquirer and somewhat regular visitor, and hopeful future convert who is coming from Reformed Protestantism.

As an introduction, Frank Schaeffer is the son of famous (at least here in America) Evangelical Christian Francis Schaeffer, who was a big early proponent of the Christian Right here. Long story short, he left that environment, became a political liberal (which is of course fine, I'm not trying to make this expressly political), and regularly expresses some usually false and vitriolic hatred for conservative Christians.

As far as I can tell pro-choice (I know there are Christians who disagree with me about this, no big deal - he's certainly more anti-pro-life than anything else) and pro-gay marriage. However, his biggest contribution to the whole editorial scene of this country is his consistent charge (borne out in multiple books) that Protestant Christians are women haters who fear female sexuality.  Now, that's of course factually false since the Reformed position on sexuality is quite clear and even on both sexes. Besides findign that charge offensive, I fail to see how that does not equally apply to his church if it does at all. After all, you allhave two notions that are wholly foreign to modern Protestantism (no pre-fall sexuality and the Ever-Virginity of Mary) which seem to be along the lines of what Schaeffer is saying. Schaeffer, in taking the opposite position from Evangelicals (monogamy) that he is in favor or looser sexuality. You will find that he is actually extremely coy about saying what he is actually for in the midst of condemning evangelicals. It is his attitudes on sexuality and sexual sin I find most concerning, more so than political issues aobut how the state particularly should handle those issues.

So, a few questions. 1. Is this guy a communicant member of the orthodox church? 2. Is this sort of stuff concerning to orthodox or only to Protestants? 3. Is this at all a common attitude towards sexuality in Orthodox circles? It appers NOT to be from reading orthodox sources and meeting people at the parish I visit (who ahve never said "Oh you're background is Reformed? You must hate women and we support liscentiousness."

Offline Agabus

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2013, 07:07:14 AM »
So, a few questions. 1. Is this guy a communicant member of the orthodox church?
I think so. There's a thread around here where people obsess over his latest writings.

I know his father was Christian famous and Franky was Ortho-famous because he wrote that mediocre book and gave some mediocre talks a while back, but I personally find the lay obsession with his fall from lay-grace a little strange.
Quote
2. Is this sort of stuff concerning to orthodox or only to Protestants? 3. Is this at all a common attitude towards sexuality in Orthodox circles?
To some.

The stance of the Church on sex is what it is (though it has generally evolved historically from 'all sex is icky' to 'married sex is OK'). Some people -- and on this forum, a lot lately -- don't care for it. In reality, there's a mixture of people who keep what to what are the traditional sexual mores and a larger portion of those who don't. So the situation on the ground is pretty much the same as you would see in Protestant circles.

Quote
It appers NOT to be from reading orthodox sources and meeting people at the parish I visit (who ahve never said "Oh you're background is Reformed? You must hate women and we support liscentiousness."
It's not generally considered polite to push social policy at coffee hour.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 07:08:08 AM by Agabus »
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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2013, 07:20:47 AM »
Frank Schaeffer's historical and theological apologetics for the Orthdox Faith are excellent. But when he delves into politics and social commentary, he goes off the deep end. His political and social views are obviously shaped from his personal bitterness from the negative experiences he endured growing up in his father's quasi-cult. When he articulates the historicity of the Orthodox Church, he remains objective and is a wonderful defender of the Faith. But his objectivity quickly evaporates when he discusses political and social topics.



Selam
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Offline adampjr

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2013, 08:02:04 AM »
So, a few questions. 1. Is this guy a communicant member of the orthodox church?
I think so. There's a thread around here where people obsess over his latest writings.

I know his father was Christian famous and Franky was Ortho-famous because he wrote that mediocre book and gave some mediocre talks a while back, but I personally find the lay obsession with his fall from lay-grace a little strange.
Quote
2. Is this sort of stuff concerning to orthodox or only to Protestants? 3. Is this at all a common attitude towards sexuality in Orthodox circles?
To some.

The stance of the Church on sex is what it is (though it has generally evolved historically from 'all sex is icky' to 'married sex is OK'). Some people -- and on this forum, a lot lately -- don't care for it. In reality, there's a mixture of people who keep what to what are the traditional sexual mores and a larger portion of those who don't. So the situation on the ground is pretty much the same as you would see in Protestant circles.

Quote
It appers NOT to be from reading orthodox sources and meeting people at the parish I visit (who ahve never said "Oh you're background is Reformed? You must hate women and we support liscentiousness."
It's not generally considered polite to push social policy at coffee hour.

I don't know the proper Orthodox opinion on Protestants, I'd like to believe that Protestants still love and worship the same God, albeit in a strange and erroneous way, but out of a good heart. And as a current-former Protestant with many friends who are good Christians, I generally take serious offense to Schaeffer's comments about us and was flabbergasted to find he was Orthodox (I had put him in that traditional "I grew up Christian and now I'm not so imma act like a bitter toddler" camp of former Christian atheists I know all too well). But its not really the political thing that concerns me, since I dont think there is an Orthodox opinion on internal national politics like this. It's the open support for sexual immorality and the condemnation of those who oppose what sexual immorality that I find most offensive coming from a Christian, and concerning as someone looking into Orthodox Christianity in particular.

Thanks for the response.

Offline adampjr

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2013, 08:03:02 AM »
Frank Schaeffer's historical and theological apologetics for the Orthdox Faith are excellent. But when he delves into politics and social commentary, he goes off the deep end. His political and social views are obviously shaped from his personal bitterness from the negative experiences he endured growing up in his father's quasi-cult. When he articulates the historicity of the Orthodox Church, he remains objective and is a wonderful defender of the Faith. But his objectivity quickly evaporates when he discusses political and social topics.



Selam

Thanks to you as well. I might try and look into his orthodox stuff, but I'd have a hard time hearing him out after all the insults he's slung my way.

Offline Alpo

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2013, 08:32:37 AM »
I though he is an apostate now? There was some thread about it a while ago.
The user should probably be sleeping by now.

Offline Punch

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2013, 09:33:02 AM »
Pretty much any discussion on "Protestants" is doomed to failure since there is really no such thing as a unified religion.  Most Confessional Lutheran (the original Protestants) would consider most of the "protestant" views held by the Shaeffers as heretical.  So would probably any main line Protestant confession of, lets say, around 1900.  I never much cared for "Franky", although my parents darn near worshiped his father.  I came into the Orthodox Church along with a big surge of Protestants of many stripes in the early to mid '90s.  It seemed like there was a big deal made about "big names" converting to Orthodoxy.  Problem is, they never really seem all that converted to me.  They seemed like a bunch of wild eyed Charismatics and Evangelicals trying to find their idea of the "early Church" rather than anyone that had any real theological roots.  I was told by a couple of Orthodox Priests that they prefered Lutheran converts since most of them did not come into the Orthodox Church looking for some magical emotional religion, but came into the Church after being convinced by the Scriptures and the Fathers that they were wrong.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline adampjr

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2013, 09:36:27 AM »
Pretty much any discussion on "Protestants" is doomed to failure since there is really no such thing as a unified religion.  Most Confessional Lutheran (the original Protestants) would consider most of the "protestant" views held by the Shaeffers as heretical.  So would probably any main line Protestant confession of, lets say, around 1900.  I never much cared for "Franky", although my parents darn near worshiped his father.  I came into the Orthodox Church along with a big surge of Protestants of many stripes in the early to mid '90s.  It seemed like there was a big deal made about "big names" converting to Orthodoxy.  Problem is, they never really seem all that converted to me.  They seemed like a bunch of wild eyed Charismatics and Evangelicals trying to find their idea of the "early Church" rather than anyone that had any real theological roots.  I was told by a couple of Orthodox Priests that they prefered Lutheran converts since most of them did not come into the Orthodox Church looking for some magical emotional religion, but came into the Church after being convinced by the Scriptures and the Fathers that they were wrong.

True, Protestant covers a wide variety of church groups as well as independent local churches. I come from the Calvinist Reformed tradition, and was largely led by Scripture and historical reading to visit the Orthodox parish.
I never cared much for Francis Schaeffer personally, but I find his son entirely offensive.

Offline jah777

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2013, 10:46:39 AM »
I think a very short answer to your question is that if you are interested in Orthodoxy and what the Orthodox Church teaches, you are better off with sources other than Frank Schaeffer.  It is best to speak with a parish priest and read books written by the saints and Fathers of the Church, both contemporary and ancient.  Most contemporary books by contemporary authors are garbage, to be honest.   

Offline LBK

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2013, 10:50:45 AM »
Quote
if you are interested in Orthodoxy and what the Orthodox Church teaches, you are better off with sources other than Frank Schaeffer. It is best to speak with a parish priest and read books written by the saints and Fathers of the Church, both contemporary and ancient.

Dare I say that the best and most accessible source of what the Church truly teaches and believes is what is read, chanted and sung in the cycle of services, and what is depicted in canonical icons. A good priest can use this basis as a sound foundation for any serious enquirer.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 10:51:43 AM by LBK »
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2013, 10:51:45 AM »
I never even heard of Frank or his father until I became Orthodox! I read one of his books - that was enough.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 10:52:15 AM by katherineofdixie »
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2013, 11:42:48 AM »
His political and social views are obviously shaped from his personal bitterness from the negative experiences he endured growing up in his father's quasi-cult.
This.

It seemed like there was a big deal made about "big names" converting to Orthodoxy.  Problem is, they never really seem all that converted to me.  They seemed like a bunch of wild eyed Charismatics and Evangelicals trying to find their idea of the "early Church" rather than anyone that had any real theological roots.  I was told by a couple of Orthodox Priests that they prefered Lutheran converts since most of them did not come into the Orthodox Church looking for some magical emotional religion, but came into the Church after being convinced by the Scriptures and the Fathers that they were wrong.
We do love to parade our converts who bring name recognition. It's like they validate the faith or something.

While I appreciate a well-spoken apologist for the faith as much as anyone, I wonder at the good it does to give relatively recent converts like Troy Pol-whatever and Jonathan Jackson so much attention. I don’t mean to comment on the state of their conversion  — I don’t know them and likely will never meet either — and hope only the best for them, but I find the tendency among Orthodox converts to jump on a fan bandwagon of someone semi-famous because they have become Orthodox to be something worth taking a moment to examine. Franky was once considered our golden boy, after all.

I though he is an apostate now? There was some thread about it a while ago.
Some posters here declared him apostate. None of us actually knows.

I don't know the proper Orthodox opinion on Protestants, I'd like to believe that Protestants still love and worship the same God, albeit in a strange and erroneous way, but out of a good heart.
I think that's the general opinion. Or at least my opinion. We don't have a dogmatic statement about it.

And as a current-former Protestant with many friends who are good Christians, I generally take serious offense to Schaeffer's comments about us and was flabbergasted to find he was Orthodox (I had put him in that traditional "I grew up Christian and now I'm not so imma act like a bitter toddler" camp of former Christian atheists I know all too well). But its not really the political thing that concerns me, since I dont think there is an Orthodox opinion on internal national politics like this. It's the open support for sexual immorality and the condemnation of those who oppose what sexual immorality that I find most offensive coming from a Christian, and concerning as someone looking into Orthodox Christianity in particular.
Franky is not a spokesman for the Church. He's just some dude with a bully pulpit.

If you ask most laymen on the ground what the Church says about sex (again, not that it ever actually gets talked about in church), they'll give you some variant of the traditional arrangement, even if they don't necessarily agree with it themselves — I guess like Bad Catholics™. And of course many people do agree with it, even when they fail. And some don't fail.
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Offline theo philosopher

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2013, 11:02:38 PM »
I would hope everyone here recognizes that no one validates Franky's claims against his father. While it's true that Francis had quite the temper - a fact that's not hidden - Franky embellished quite a bit. To say that Francis had a "quasi-cult" is quite insulting and ignorant.

I know Franky's sisters and brother-in-laws. I even know the priest who helped lead Franky to Orthodoxy. Franky is a very angry person, but that anger is misdirected. To date, not a single one of the Schaeffer children or those who grew up around the Schaeffers has validated many of Franky's statements on L'Abri. In his bitterness, he's exaggerating or, in some instances, lying about what he "endured."

All that said, I fail to see how this would prevent Franky from being Orthodox. All of us lie and are unjustifiably angry in our own way, so if he's prohibited from communion for such things, then all should be prohibited.

As a side note, anyone who has taken the time to read through Francis Schaeffer's entire works and listened to his lectures could see that he was easily moving towards Orthodoxy. It's no accident that Franky moved in that direction. Francis Schaeffer has been a major influence on my life and I dare say it's his teachings that directed me to Orthodoxy. Now that I'm reading Orthodox philosophers that predate Schaeffer (and one who was his contemporary, Fr. Seraphim Rose), it's difficult to see a difference.

A final note: Schaeffer was not a supporter of the Religious Right, nor did he influence it. The Religious Right was a bastardized message from Schaeffer's A Christian Manifesto. Almost everyone who followed Schaeffer and knew him personally has come to condemn the Religious Right for invoking his name and message in their twisted movement. In fact, much of what Schaeffer taught concerning Christian political action and the theory behind it is antithetical to the Religious Right's own approach.
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Offline Nikolai Sergeev

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2013, 11:53:50 PM »
I hadn't known the guy till I found an interview with him on youtube (pops up first when you type in "orthodox" in the search field). He struck me as a very intelligent person and a good speaker. The video was on Orthodoxy vs Protestantism of course.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 11:54:22 PM by Nikolai Sergeev »

Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2013, 04:23:53 PM »
Don't get hung up on Ortho-famous folks, from anywhere, unless they have "St." in front of their name.
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Offline Christopher McAvoy

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2013, 01:22:06 AM »
Well, I for one will voice the opinion that Mr. Schaeffer for his heretical views deserves discipline from his bishop, excommunication being a means to that end if necessary. I wish him the best - but I for one have little interest in bishops who offer poor leadership toward their flock.

People such as Mr. Schaeffer are scandalous and depressing and I understand why they might frighten off newcomers from taking the Church seriously.  :-\ 

We're here for our own salvation, but if a bishop isnt doing his job -  somebody better say something to him in an organized manner.

Sometimes bishops dont do their job because laity doesnt do it's job either.

We're all in this together !!
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Offline Christopher McAvoy

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2013, 01:28:34 AM »
I though he is an apostate now? There was some thread about it a while ago.

If thats true that my previous post is irrelevant. C'est la vie. Mr. Schaeffer was participating in some ecumenical affair at the Marymount Univeristy in Los Angeles run by jesuits. That university is poison for orthodox, it REALLY very heterodox. I seem to recall people involved in the institute their or at least their professor friends down the hall endorse women priests and other tricks of the enemy.

If there is to be ecumenism with RC's it better at least be those representing authentic genuine RC patrimony, not the inhumane liberal protestants who snuck inside the trojan horse of vat. II and pretend to be RC.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 01:30:06 AM by Christopher McAvoy »
"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2013, 08:55:38 AM »
Frank Schaeffer's historical and theological apologetics for the Orthdox Faith are excellent. But when he delves into politics and social commentary, he goes off the deep end. His political and social views are obviously shaped from his personal bitterness from the negative experiences he endured growing up in his father's quasi-cult. When he articulates the historicity of the Orthodox Church, he remains objective and is a wonderful defender of the Faith. But his objectivity quickly evaporates when he discusses political and social topics.



Selam

Yes, he should stick to religion and spare us his political views.....

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2013, 10:15:53 AM »
Why I Am Not an Atheist” with Frank Schaeffer

Is atheism a belief system in itself? Author and speaker Frank Schaeffer says yes. And in this course he explains why belief in Christ makes better sense of the world than no belief at all.
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Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2013, 09:12:51 PM »
Frank Schaeffer's historical and theological apologetics for the Orthdox Faith are excellent. But when he delves into politics and social commentary, he goes off the deep end. His political and social views are obviously shaped from his personal bitterness from the negative experiences he endured growing up in his father's quasi-cult. When he articulates the historicity of the Orthodox Church, he remains objective and is a wonderful defender of the Faith. But his objectivity quickly evaporates when he discusses political and social topics.



Selam

On another note, I was wonderin about you that I had not seen you on here for a while, course it is probably my fault as I have been hiding in the silly sections, call it pennance in reverse, annyway I was happy to see you posting, speaking about writers though, have you read anything by Marcus Borg?
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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2013, 09:33:45 PM »
Frank Schaeffer's historical and theological apologetics for the Orthdox Faith are excellent. But when he delves into politics and social commentary, he goes off the deep end. His political and social views are obviously shaped from his personal bitterness from the negative experiences he endured growing up in his father's quasi-cult. When he articulates the historicity of the Orthodox Church, he remains objective and is a wonderful defender of the Faith. But his objectivity quickly evaporates when he discusses political and social topics.



Selam

On another note, I was wonderin about you that I had not seen you on here for a while, course it is probably my fault as I have been hiding in the silly sections, call it pennance in reverse, annyway I was happy to see you posting, speaking about writers though, have you read anything by Marcus Borg?

Thanks. Nice to know that somebody is actually glad to see me posting.  :) 

No, I have never heard of Marcus Borg. I will look him up.


Selam
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Offline Jetavan

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2013, 09:43:28 PM »
Frank Schaeffer's historical and theological apologetics for the Orthdox Faith are excellent. But when he delves into politics and social commentary, he goes off the deep end. His political and social views are obviously shaped from his personal bitterness from the negative experiences he endured growing up in his father's quasi-cult. When he articulates the historicity of the Orthodox Church, he remains objective and is a wonderful defender of the Faith. But his objectivity quickly evaporates when he discusses political and social topics.



Selam

On another note, I was wonderin about you that I had not seen you on here for a while, course it is probably my fault as I have been hiding in the silly sections, call it pennance in reverse, annyway I was happy to see you posting, speaking about writers though, have you read anything by Marcus Borg?

Thanks. Nice to know that somebody is actually glad to see me posting.  :) 

No, I have never heard of Marcus Borg.
Resistance is futile.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2013, 09:45:42 PM »
Frank Schaeffer's historical and theological apologetics for the Orthdox Faith are excellent. But when he delves into politics and social commentary, he goes off the deep end. His political and social views are obviously shaped from his personal bitterness from the negative experiences he endured growing up in his father's quasi-cult. When he articulates the historicity of the Orthodox Church, he remains objective and is a wonderful defender of the Faith. But his objectivity quickly evaporates when he discusses political and social topics.



Selam

On another note, I was wonderin about you that I had not seen you on here for a while, course it is probably my fault as I have been hiding in the silly sections, call it pennance in reverse, annyway I was happy to see you posting, speaking about writers though, have you read anything by Marcus Borg?

Thanks. Nice to know that somebody is actually glad to see me posting.  :) 

No, I have never heard of Marcus Borg.
Resistance is futile.

But he comes across as such a nice, non-confrontational guy!  8)

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2013, 09:49:11 PM »
Frank Schaeffer's historical and theological apologetics for the Orthdox Faith are excellent. But when he delves into politics and social commentary, he goes off the deep end. His political and social views are obviously shaped from his personal bitterness from the negative experiences he endured growing up in his father's quasi-cult. When he articulates the historicity of the Orthodox Church, he remains objective and is a wonderful defender of the Faith. But his objectivity quickly evaporates when he discusses political and social topics.



Selam

On another note, I was wonderin about you that I had not seen you on here for a while, course it is probably my fault as I have been hiding in the silly sections, call it pennance in reverse, annyway I was happy to see you posting, speaking about writers though, have you read anything by Marcus Borg?

Thanks. Nice to know that somebody is actually glad to see me posting.  :) 

No, I have never heard of Marcus Borg.
Resistance is futile.

But he comes across as such a nice, non-confrontational guy!  8)

Are you guys talking about me or Marcus Borg?  ???

Selam
""Love is a dangerous thing. It will crush you if you trust it. But without it you can never be whole. Love crucifies, but love saves. We will either be saved together with love, or damned alone without it."    Selam, +GMK+

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2013, 09:54:34 PM »
Frank Schaeffer's historical and theological apologetics for the Orthdox Faith are excellent. But when he delves into politics and social commentary, he goes off the deep end. His political and social views are obviously shaped from his personal bitterness from the negative experiences he endured growing up in his father's quasi-cult. When he articulates the historicity of the Orthodox Church, he remains objective and is a wonderful defender of the Faith. But his objectivity quickly evaporates when he discusses political and social topics.



Selam

On another note, I was wonderin about you that I had not seen you on here for a while, course it is probably my fault as I have been hiding in the silly sections, call it pennance in reverse, annyway I was happy to see you posting, speaking about writers though, have you read anything by Marcus Borg?

Thanks. Nice to know that somebody is actually glad to see me posting.  :)  

No, I have never heard of Marcus Borg.
Resistance is futile.

But he comes across as such a nice, non-confrontational guy!  8)

Are you guys talking about me or Marcus Borg?  ???

Selam
Borg.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 09:58:35 PM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2013, 10:03:02 PM »
Frank Schaeffer's historical and theological apologetics for the Orthdox Faith are excellent. But when he delves into politics and social commentary, he goes off the deep end. His political and social views are obviously shaped from his personal bitterness from the negative experiences he endured growing up in his father's quasi-cult. When he articulates the historicity of the Orthodox Church, he remains objective and is a wonderful defender of the Faith. But his objectivity quickly evaporates when he discusses political and social topics.



Selam

On another note, I was wonderin about you that I had not seen you on here for a while, course it is probably my fault as I have been hiding in the silly sections, call it pennance in reverse, annyway I was happy to see you posting, speaking about writers though, have you read anything by Marcus Borg?

Thanks. Nice to know that somebody is actually glad to see me posting.  :) 

No, I have never heard of Marcus Borg.
Resistance is futile.

But he comes across as such a nice, non-confrontational guy!  8)

Are you guys talking about me or Marcus Borg?  ???

Selam

Mr. Borg, though you're also nice  ;D

As an aside, I remember the first time I saw that "The Best of Both Worlds, Part 1" episode...  my 11 year old mind was blown that night...

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2013, 10:25:33 PM »
Frank Schaeffer's historical and theological apologetics for the Orthdox Faith are excellent. But when he delves into politics and social commentary, he goes off the deep end. His political and social views are obviously shaped from his personal bitterness from the negative experiences he endured growing up in his father's quasi-cult. When he articulates the historicity of the Orthodox Church, he remains objective and is a wonderful defender of the Faith. But his objectivity quickly evaporates when he discusses political and social topics.



Selam

On another note, I was wonderin about you that I had not seen you on here for a while, course it is probably my fault as I have been hiding in the silly sections, call it pennance in reverse, annyway I was happy to see you posting, speaking about writers though, have you read anything by Marcus Borg?

Thanks. Nice to know that somebody is actually glad to see me posting.  :)  

No, I have never heard of Marcus Borg.
Resistance is futile.

But he comes across as such a nice, non-confrontational guy!  8)

Are you guys talking about me or Marcus Borg?  ???

Selam

Mr. Borg, though you're also nice  ;D

As an aside, I remember the first time I saw that "The Best of Both Worlds, Part 1" episode...  my 11 year old mind was blown that night...

Thanks for saying I'm nice.  :)

A cursory glance at Wikipedia leads me to believe that Borg is not somebody I would be fond of. I'm not too simpatico with the "Jesus Seminar" crowd.


Selam
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 10:26:16 PM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2013, 11:09:28 PM »
Firstly, I am not trying to just slam the guy personally. But I find the following concerning, and wonder if this is type of thing prevelant in Orthodoxy. I say this as a serious inquirer and somewhat regular visitor, and hopeful future convert who is coming from Reformed Protestantism.

As an introduction, Frank Schaeffer is the son of famous (at least here in America) Evangelical Christian Francis Schaeffer, who was a big early proponent of the Christian Right here. Long story short, he left that environment, became a political liberal (which is of course fine, I'm not trying to make this expressly political), and regularly expresses some usually false and vitriolic hatred for conservative Christians.

As far as I can tell pro-choice (I know there are Christians who disagree with me about this, no big deal - he's certainly more anti-pro-life than anything else) and pro-gay marriage. However, his biggest contribution to the whole editorial scene of this country is his consistent charge (borne out in multiple books) that Protestant Christians are women haters who fear female sexuality.  Now, that's of course factually false since the Reformed position on sexuality is quite clear and even on both sexes. Besides findign that charge offensive, I fail to see how that does not equally apply to his church if it does at all. After all, you allhave two notions that are wholly foreign to modern Protestantism (no pre-fall sexuality and the Ever-Virginity of Mary) which seem to be along the lines of what Schaeffer is saying. Schaeffer, in taking the opposite position from Evangelicals (monogamy) that he is in favor or looser sexuality. You will find that he is actually extremely coy about saying what he is actually for in the midst of condemning evangelicals. It is his attitudes on sexuality and sexual sin I find most concerning, more so than political issues aobut how the state particularly should handle those issues.

So, a few questions. 1. Is this guy a communicant member of the orthodox church? 2. Is this sort of stuff concerning to orthodox or only to Protestants? 3. Is this at all a common attitude towards sexuality in Orthodox circles? It appers NOT to be from reading orthodox sources and meeting people at the parish I visit (who ahve never said "Oh you're background is Reformed? You must hate women and we support liscentiousness."

If you read Frank's book: Portofino, this would give you a little bit of insight to his own sexuality, at least as a adolescent.

Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2013, 06:42:43 PM »
Frank Schaeffer's historical and theological apologetics for the Orthdox Faith are excellent. But when he delves into politics and social commentary, he goes off the deep end. His political and social views are obviously shaped from his personal bitterness from the negative experiences he endured growing up in his father's quasi-cult. When he articulates the historicity of the Orthodox Church, he remains objective and is a wonderful defender of the Faith. But his objectivity quickly evaporates when he discusses political and social topics.



Selam

On another note, I was wonderin about you that I had not seen you on here for a while, course it is probably my fault as I have been hiding in the silly sections, call it pennance in reverse, annyway I was happy to see you posting, speaking about writers though, have you read anything by Marcus Borg?

Thanks. Nice to know that somebody is actually glad to see me posting.  :) 

No, I have never heard of Marcus Borg.
Resistance is futile.

Assimilations are on Sunday.
The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.

"A Christian is someone who follows and worships a perfectly good God who revealed his true face through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.“

Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2013, 08:17:54 PM »
Frank Schaeffer's historical and theological apologetics for the Orthdox Faith are excellent. But when he delves into politics and social commentary, he goes off the deep end. His political and social views are obviously shaped from his personal bitterness from the negative experiences he endured growing up in his father's quasi-cult. When he articulates the historicity of the Orthodox Church, he remains objective and is a wonderful defender of the Faith. But his objectivity quickly evaporates when he discusses political and social topics.



Selam

On another note, I was wonderin about you that I had not seen you on here for a while, course it is probably my fault as I have been hiding in the silly sections, call it pennance in reverse, annyway I was happy to see you posting, speaking about writers though, have you read anything by Marcus Borg?

Thanks. Nice to know that somebody is actually glad to see me posting.  :)  

No, I have never heard of Marcus Borg.
Resistance is futile.

But he comes across as such a nice, non-confrontational guy!  8)

Are you guys talking about me or Marcus Borg?  ???

Selam

Mr. Borg, though you're also nice  ;D

As an aside, I remember the first time I saw that "The Best of Both Worlds, Part 1" episode...  my 11 year old mind was blown that night...

Thanks for saying I'm nice.  :)

A cursory glance at Wikipedia leads me to believe that Borg is not somebody I would be fond of. I'm not too simpatico with the "Jesus Seminar" crowd.


Selam

I would say from what I have read about the Jesus seminars, I too would not recommend that to anyone.

But I have read a few New Testament Scholars, and few are what I would recommend.

But I recently came across, Jesus: A New Vision, 1987 by Marcus Borg and I say that of all the New testament Scholars now living, he comes very close to what I believe is good for Christians who want to understand more without being led astray. He was also the only one recommended by another of today's acknowledged NT Scholars, N.T. Wright.
The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.

"A Christian is someone who follows and worships a perfectly good God who revealed his true face through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.“

Offline LBK

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2013, 08:24:47 PM »
"Jesus: A New Vision"? No thanks, the 2000-year-old Orthodox vision of Him is the only one I'm interested in.  
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 08:25:06 PM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2013, 10:48:50 PM »
Borg is a mystic.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Offline LBK

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2013, 10:49:59 PM »
Borg is a mystic.

Which, these days, can mean almost anything.  :P
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2013, 01:02:32 AM »
I think a very short answer to your question is that if you are interested in Orthodoxy and what the Orthodox Church teaches, you are better off with sources other than Frank Schaeffer.  It is best to speak with a parish priest and read books written by the saints and Fathers of the Church, both contemporary and ancient.  Most contemporary books by contemporary authors are garbage, to be honest.   

True.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2013, 01:04:55 AM »
Borg is a mystic.

Which, these days, can mean almost anything.  :P

Mystic crystal revelations from the dawning of the Age of Aquarius.
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Offline Seraphim98

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2013, 12:01:13 AM »
Speaking of Borg...anyone ever hear this by Bjork and Tavener? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEhq3rkbVr8
« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 12:05:44 AM by Seraphim98 »

Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2013, 02:22:15 AM »
Who is Frank Schaeffer??

oh well
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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2013, 11:19:13 AM »
If I was to compile a list of Orthodox people who the attention they get is disproportionate to their actual influence in Orthodoxy or the world at large, Frankie would be near the top. Maybe that football player, too.
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Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2014, 01:16:59 PM »
I never even heard of Frank or his father until I became Orthodox! I read one of his books - that was enough.

Neither had I, although I was a Methodist until I was 16 then became an Episcopalian until I was 28 when I converted to Orthodoxy. I think that there should be a rule that converts to Orthodoxy may not write articles or books until they have been Orthodox for several years. I would have to spend my life defining myself with the message that I am not my father the way that Schaeffer sdoes. My impression of him is that he is after publicity. When he first converted he published a newspaper that I would not distribute to my people because it was so right wing politically. That must not have gotten him the attention that he wanted, for he now has embraced the political left and writes for such left wing publications as the Huffington Post.

I heard him speak after he first converted. He was filled with anger against Protestantism. I do not know his status, but many of the ideas that he expresses are not faithful to the teachings of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2014, 01:24:28 PM »
My problem with Frank Schaeffer is not his anger at evangelical Protestantism. That is quite understandable, especially considering his quasi-cultish upbringing. My problem is that he has thrown the baby out with the bathwater, and in reactionary fashion he has promoted a thinly disguised liberal political agenda as if it is Orthodox Teaching.

However, I must say that I think many of us are guilty of doing a similar thing. Most of us have strong political and social opinions, and we try our best to defend those opinions with Orthodox doctrine. Heck, that's basically what this forum is all about. Frank Schaeffer just happens to have a larger audience than the rest of us.


Selam
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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2014, 07:46:02 PM »
Schaeffer has returned to being an artist, after a 30-year hiatus. He does mostly oil on canvas.
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Offline Green_Umbrella

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2014, 09:03:18 PM »
Who is Frank Schaeffer??

oh well

A pro abortion, pro so called same sex marriage fruit who writes for left wing rags.

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2014, 12:26:54 AM »
Who is Frank Schaeffer??

oh well

A pro abortion, pro so called same sex marriage fruit who writes for left wing rags.

But how will he distinguish himself from other Orthocelebrities?
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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #43 on: February 27, 2014, 02:14:44 PM »
Head's up: Schaeffer's new book is due out in May. Title: Why I'm an Atheist Who Believes in God: How to Create Beauty, Give Love and Find Peace. Should be interesting.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #44 on: February 27, 2014, 02:25:49 PM »
Head's up: Schaeffer's new book is due out in May. Title: Why I'm an Atheist Who Believes in God: How to Create Beauty, Give Love and Find Peace. Should be interesting.

Strange title.

Lazar Puhalo's Youtube channel uploading something with Frank Shaeffer recently.
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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #45 on: February 27, 2014, 02:35:31 PM »
Head's up: Schaeffer's new book is due out in May. Title: Why I'm an Atheist Who Believes in God: How to Create Beauty, Give Love and Find Peace. Should be interesting.

I find the title sensationalistic, slimy-slick, contrived, insulting, and cringe-worthy... but it worked: I will probably read this.

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #46 on: February 27, 2014, 08:07:38 PM »
Who is Frank Schaeffer??

oh well

A pro abortion, pro so called same sex marriage fruit who writes for left wing rags.

Maybe he is a New Age Reformed Orthodox Christian.....???????

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #47 on: March 07, 2014, 07:16:33 PM »
Schaeffer: "Religion is a neurological disorder only faith is the cure!"
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #48 on: March 07, 2014, 07:25:39 PM »
Schaeffer: "Religion is a neurological disorder only faith is the cure!"


How about that. Schaffer is a Romanidite.
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Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #49 on: March 15, 2014, 06:36:12 PM »
I watched a video of him for about an hour. I really enjoyed it. Forgive me I am Catholic, but I also found it a bit annoying. He seemed very earnest and good hearted but like some here I found him to be a bit bitter towards the Tea Party or certain conservative groups. Like someone said when he goes off into that it's best to just sort of take it with a grain of salt. Roman Catholics have the same problem with their lay theologians or whatever they are. Catholic Answers is sort of disliked by even traditionalists who are not big fans of the SSPX. Frank Shaffer seems to be the Orthodox version.  It's important to remember that both the Catholic and Orthodox leave the voice of the Church to clergy moreso, though not absolutely lest it all become clericalism. The problem is people like Shaffer, if it's the same as the Catholic lay theologians, sort of get this idea that they are some official voice of the Church. I've had a few people complain about their dealings with Catholic Answers and their lay theologians and the idea these guys in suits give: that they are somehow worth more than any other layman who reads Scripture and the Fathers. They've got a name and a suit or whatever. They've got something more than a blog! They are famous! Really, I like Shaffer and think he is earnest but from what I saw he fell into that same group as the Catholic Answers/EWTN type. Just look up the blog of Mark Shea. It turns into a bitter rant against traditionalists that gets annoying even though I like a lot of what Shea has to say. He even helped me look East in his own way! But like Shaffer's bitterness towards the right,  Shea get's old. Rule of thumb: Take what's good as gold, and the rest as a grain of salt. You've got a mind and can read. You've got priests. I'll read the wisdom of the Fathers, too. The Holy Spirit can help me, too. In the era of anti-clericalism, types like Shaffer can be dangerous, though not by intent.
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Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #50 on: March 15, 2014, 06:38:32 PM »
We are episcopalians I remind you, that is with a small "e"! Our churches are ruled by an episcopal body, not laymen like the congregationalists. Laymen go to the synods and councils invited by clergy to advice and help.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 06:39:31 PM by wainscottbl »
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Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #51 on: March 15, 2014, 10:00:45 PM »
I watched a video of him for about an hour. I really enjoyed it. Forgive me I am Catholic, but I also found it a bit annoying. He seemed very earnest and good hearted but like some here I found him to be a bit bitter towards the Tea Party or certain conservative groups. Like someone said when he goes off into that it's best to just sort of take it with a grain of salt. Roman Catholics have the same problem with their lay theologians or whatever they are. Catholic Answers is sort of disliked by even traditionalists who are not big fans of the SSPX. Frank Shaffer seems to be the Orthodox version.  It's important to remember that both the Catholic and Orthodox leave the voice of the Church to clergy moreso, though not absolutely lest it all become clericalism. The problem is people like Shaffer, if it's the same as the Catholic lay theologians, sort of get this idea that they are some official voice of the Church. I've had a few people complain about their dealings with Catholic Answers and their lay theologians and the idea these guys in suits give: that they are somehow worth more than any other layman who reads Scripture and the Fathers. They've got a name and a suit or whatever. They've got something more than a blog! They are famous! Really, I like Shaffer and think he is earnest but from what I saw he fell into that same group as the Catholic Answers/EWTN type. Just look up the blog of Mark Shea. It turns into a bitter rant against traditionalists that gets annoying even though I like a lot of what Shea has to say. He even helped me look East in his own way! But like Shaffer's bitterness towards the right,  Shea get's old. Rule of thumb: Take what's good as gold, and the rest as a grain of salt. You've got a mind and can read. You've got priests. I'll read the wisdom of the Fathers, too. The Holy Spirit can help me, too. In the era of anti-clericalism, types like Shaffer can be dangerous, though not by intent.

Frank Schafer is any kind of Orthodox theologian, lay or otherwise. He is a very angry young man whose chief purpose in life seems to be to prove that he is not his father.  The problem is that he would be no one if it were not for his father. After I heard him speak once, I decided that I would never have him speak in my parish. When he came into Orthodoxy, he acted as if he were the deliverer or Orthodoxy, but he really did not convert to Orthodoxy, he rejected the Protestantism of his father. I had some dealings with him about publishing a book and also found him to be dishonest for he does not honor his contracts.  Actually, I am glad that he did not honor the contract, because I do not want my work associated with him in any way.

Fr. John W. Morris
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 10:01:39 PM by frjohnmorris »

Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #52 on: March 15, 2014, 10:13:20 PM »
Thank you for your honest, forceful but charitable words on the man, reverend Father. I sensed a certain problem watching the man. He means well, but is mental issues make him dangerous as a face of Orthodox, a cause of scandal and confusion. I suppose the prudent can discern the good and bad more or less, but the little children in the faith and outside the faith who are scandalized by his problems, Lord have mercy. He is very charming but I do realize now that I think about that his talk, because of its charms, was dangerous for that reason. Like I said, I like him, but your fathers, Father Morris, make me realize the danger of such people. You truly understand your pastoral duty to defend the Faith.

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2014, 12:45:53 PM »
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I certainly take exception with Frank Shaeffer's political agenda which he promotes under the guise of Orthodoxy. However, I also realize that many people take exception to my pacifist pro-life views which I believe are thoroughly Orthodox; so I don't want to be guilty of calling the kettle. But the beautiful thing about the Church is that God somehow preserves it from the errors of all of us. We state our convictions and trust the Church to correct us. And in the scheme of eternity, we all get a lot wrong; but if we cling to Christ and His sacraments then we collectively get it right in the end. 


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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #54 on: May 16, 2014, 10:19:57 AM »
Quote
One phrase comes to mind, time and again, when I think of Frank Schaeffer: “THINK AGAIN.” Any time I think I have a handle on things theological, he seems to find the thread, hanging from the edges, and gives it a good, solid yank.

Such is the case once again with his newest book, “Why I am an Atheist Who Believes in God...."
....
I asked Frank several questions about his new project; here is what he had to say.
....
What do you see as the primary take-away from this book?

[Frank Schaeffer:] I do not always believe -- let alone know -- if God exists. I do not always know he, she or it does not exist either, though there are long patches in my life when it seems God never did exist. What I know is that I see the Creator in Jesus or nowhere. What I know is that I see Jesus in my children and grandchildren’s love. What I know is that I rediscover hope again and again through my wife Genie’s love. What I know is that Mother Maria loved unto death. What I know is that sometimes something too good to be true, is true.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 10:21:29 AM by Jetavan »
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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #55 on: May 16, 2014, 10:30:29 AM »
Frank Shaeffer is a man who doesn't consistently believe anything, and likes to very forcefully remind everyone of that and condemn those that do.

I think he has gone through more reincarnations in his belief system than Vishnu.
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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #56 on: May 16, 2014, 10:32:50 AM »
So, is he still in the Orthodox Church or not?  After actually doing a little bit of research on the guy, I can't believe any Orthodox Christian would buy into what this guy has to say.  Not to mention he's apparently slandered ministers such as Billy Graham and refused to retract what was proven to be false.  He's not credible.

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #57 on: May 21, 2014, 12:35:13 PM »
I cannot figure out dear Frank. I have listened to most of his video on youtube about Orthodoxy and find them a useful tool for those interested in Orthodoxy. But, he has come out with other videos with a more blatant political agenda. Freedom of speech? or has he become a political commentator?


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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #58 on: May 30, 2014, 07:50:05 PM »
Quote
One phrase comes to mind, time and again, when I think of Frank Schaeffer: “THINK AGAIN.” Any time I think I have a handle on things theological, he seems to find the thread, hanging from the edges, and gives it a good, solid yank.

Such is the case once again with his newest book, “Why I am an Atheist Who Believes in God...."
....
I asked Frank several questions about his new project; here is what he had to say.
....
What do you see as the primary take-away from this book?

[Frank Schaeffer:] I do not always believe -- let alone know -- if God exists. I do not always know he, she or it does not exist either, though there are long patches in my life when it seems God never did exist. What I know is that I see the Creator in Jesus or nowhere. What I know is that I see Jesus in my children and grandchildren’s love. What I know is that I rediscover hope again and again through my wife Genie’s love. What I know is that Mother Maria loved unto death. What I know is that sometimes something too good to be true, is true.


This book is free (right now, anyway) on the Kindle, though you may have to be a Prime member.

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #59 on: June 06, 2014, 06:42:04 PM »
He's got a lot of baggage and mental issues. I do not mean that as an attack, but it's just a fact. But I do like what good he does. He's charming and I think that's what he goes on, but does not seem to care what wrong he does. Dare I say he has somewhat of an anti-social personality disorder. Or maybe he is just narcissistic. Not maliciously so, but seeks attention and will not recant what wrong he says. He's likable though because he is not malicious. There are malicious religious pop stars and those you just want to punch in the fact for being such jerks. Shaffer you do not know what to do. You don't want to hit him, but you might want to yell at him.
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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #60 on: June 06, 2014, 07:23:37 PM »
I ordered a physical copy of his new book and just finished reading it last night.

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #61 on: June 06, 2014, 07:29:52 PM »
I ordered a physical copy of his new book and just finished reading it last night.

And what do you physically think about it?  :P
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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #62 on: June 06, 2014, 09:35:29 PM »
I ordered a physical copy of his new book and just finished reading it last night.

And what do you physically think about it?  :P

I mentioned that it is a physical copy because they are only print on demand. Welcome to the digital age, kids.

I'm not sure I have much to say about it. There are flashes of brilliance very occasionally (like twice), and the rest of the time it ranges between insightful to idiotic. Certainly not coherent or consistent in any way, not that that's what he was reaching for. But at times his inconstancy pushes the limits of credulity. Honestly, I guess it was mostly disappointing. It came off more like a compendium of ranting blog posts from a retired grump than like a purposeful reflection on belief/lack of belief in God. To sum it up: Who knows if God is real? The world is full of suffering, the God of the Bible, Old and New Testaments, is a tyrant who we all ignore when we need to. But his grandkids are great and make him feel all squishy and full of life. He loves lots of art and architecture and music, and he spends pages making sure you know how refined his tastes are. So surely there's got to be some reason for all of that beauty. And he's totally cool with gay people, so in case you didn't know, he's cool with gay people. Like completely cool with it. Not homophobic like church people. Church is okay because it's about the feeling you get at a repetitious ritual in an archaic language. It's not about the words said or anything, it's about an experience of beauty with other people that takes you outside yourself. So he still goes to church, but he doesn't really believe most of it. But he does still believe in Social Jesus, and he honestly talks about hitting his kids when he was younger. I think that about covers it.

But it was enjoyable to read for me in the way that some people like reading People magazine. Brain candy. And I got to see an example of somebody nearing their golden years who I have no desire to be like, so maybe through his experiences I can avoid some intellectual pitfalls along the way. If I had to rate it, I'd give it a ?+.

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #63 on: June 07, 2014, 09:32:59 PM »
This book is free (right now, anyway) on the Kindle, though you may have to be a Prime member.

It's little things like that which have me considering caving and getting an e-reader. But for now I'll stick to reading paper. I love the feel. Plus I love getting away from a screen rather than moving to another one.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 09:47:08 PM by Alveus Lacuna »

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #64 on: June 07, 2014, 09:40:11 PM »
But for now I'll still to read paper. I love the feel. Plus I love getting away from a screen rather than moving to another one.

 :-*
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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #65 on: July 14, 2014, 01:38:15 AM »
Schaeffer: "Here is one of my favorite people — Brian McLaren — doing me the honor of interviewing me in depth. Because it is Brian, I forget there is a camera there and say things I’ve never really shared honestly before...."
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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #66 on: July 14, 2014, 03:09:46 AM »
Schaeffer: "Here is one of my favorite people — Brian McLaren — doing me the honor of interviewing me in depth. Because it is Brian, I forget there is a camera there and say things I’ve never really shared honestly before...."

Where's the vomiting emoticon?
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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #67 on: July 14, 2014, 09:50:58 AM »
Schaeffer: "Here is one of my favorite people — Brian McLaren — doing me the honor of interviewing me in depth. Because it is Brian, I forget there is a camera there and say things I’ve never really shared honestly before...."

Where's the vomiting emoticon?
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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #68 on: July 14, 2014, 10:15:02 AM »
Sure, it's a shame to watch him go down.

Last I heard, he was still Greek Orthodox but had lost his faith; he stayed because he likes the culture or something.

I didn't know about the disconnect between Francis Schaeffer (the father) and the religious right. I once heard Jerry Falwell praise him so I just assumed.
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Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #69 on: July 14, 2014, 03:27:10 PM »
Well, pray for him but being culturally attached is a danger. I want to Catholicism for the romatciism of the the liturgy or culture. Being hung up on all that is not piety and dangerous. It is why I am not rushing into Orthodoxy. I feel my Russophillia is not a good enough reason to become Orthodox. Not sure what was in Mr. Shaeffer's reasons were, and I am sure there were genuine heartfelt reasons, but to make war on the religious right based on your own personal psychological issues....well, when I saw a video of Shaffaefer going on about all that, I knew he had issues that required a therapist. He tends to project all his own psychological sufferings on the religious right. I actually like a lot of what he has to say, but sometimes his way of saying it rings of hatred, a hatred he thinks he is condemning as right-wing hypocorisy when it is he is volatile. Lord have mercy on thy servant, Frank.
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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #70 on: July 17, 2014, 11:47:48 AM »
"It's who you are, that matters." -- Frank Schaeffer, Wild Goose, 2014
« Last Edit: July 17, 2014, 11:49:04 AM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #71 on: July 17, 2014, 12:02:32 PM »
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #72 on: July 20, 2014, 01:19:36 AM »
"Wild Goose" is a strange name for a festival that I would never go to anyway.
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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #73 on: July 20, 2014, 01:21:10 AM »
"Wild Goose" is a strange name for a festival that I would never go to anyway.

Why? It'd be a wild goose chase?
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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #74 on: July 20, 2014, 01:22:31 AM »
"Wild Goose" is a strange name for a festival that I would never go to anyway.

Why? It'd be a wild goose chase?

No, just spiritual hippies talking.
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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #75 on: July 20, 2014, 08:04:15 PM »
Quote
Excerpts from my interview with New York Times bestselling author Frank Schaeffer about his new book Why I’m an Atheist Who Believes in God.
....
Reba: There is a lot of paradox in your book, including the title.  How can the title be true?

Frank:  Simplicity is really a false avenue when it comes to who we are… I’ve never met an Atheist, and I’ve never met a Christian…these labels do not actually define anyone, because none of us are one thing to our core…
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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #76 on: July 20, 2014, 08:42:38 PM »
Labels are descriptions of what people/things/etc. are or appear to be; obviously they don't define them and make them what they are (except perhaps on a personal/psychological level). Saying that you've never met an atheist because, for example, some of them sometimes have questions about faith or have some type of religious feelings is ridiculous. We use labels because they are helpful. In fact, they are necessary. That's how our mind works. 

From what Frank answers... Simplicity is a label. Really is a label. False is a label. Avenue is a label. When is a label. Comes is a label. Every word we use is a label or fill-in or catch-word for a concept or object or person or idea or whatever, or a word that helps connect them into some coherent whole. If he really believes that things shouldn't be so simple as he is saying, then he shouldn't call himself an author, a son, etc.

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #77 on: July 20, 2014, 09:03:43 PM »
If he really believes that things shouldn't be so simple as he is saying, then he shouldn't call himself an author, a son, etc.
Sounds like apophatic theo...uh...anthropology...

which would make sense if we are in the image of God, and God is -- ultimately -- apophatic, beyond description.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 09:04:45 PM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #78 on: July 20, 2014, 10:19:11 PM »
Frank talks like a politician. It's not a good trait. In fact it's repulsive.
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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #79 on: July 20, 2014, 10:30:08 PM »
If he really believes that things shouldn't be so simple as he is saying, then he shouldn't call himself an author, a son, etc.
Sounds like apophatic theo...uh...anthropology...

which would make sense if we are in the image of God, and God is -- ultimately -- apophatic, beyond description.

I await those who hold to that position to stop bothering us with their jibber jabber then.  :P  ;D But for the rest of us, apophaticism is a tool, not a dogma.

Quote
But a man who states what God is not without going on to say what He is, acts much in the same way as one would who when asked how many twice five make, should answer, “Not two, nor three, nor four, nor five, nor twenty, nor thirty, nor in short any number below ten, nor any multiple of ten;” but would not answer “ten,” nor settle the mind of his questioner upon the firm ground of the answer. For it is much easier, and more concise to show what a thing is not from what it is, than to demonstrate what it is by stripping it of what it is not. And this surely is evident to every one.

-- St. Gregory the Theologian (d. c. 391), Oration 28.9

Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #80 on: July 20, 2014, 10:59:46 PM »
I see what Schaeffer is saying--religion and such terms can define us too much to the point we become like Pharisees, saying, "I am Orthodox." "I am Christian" without professing the true faith or being of Christ. But the Councils make clear there are certain things which are true doctrine and you confess those things as in the Creed and in the Councils. You detest what the Fathers have condemned in the Holy Councils as heretical and anathema, and you believe what they profess. Orthodoxy is not just about a pretty show where you can take your kids and feel good and welcomed, unlike those awful self-righteous Evangelical churches. I would ask if he is ready to sternly condemn the errors of various heresies, not because they displease him romanticism, but because they are false and ugly, outright blasphemy. Does he believe in "one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth and in Jesus Christ His Son, begotten of the Father before all the ages, God of God, True God of True God...not made in time nor of the father or less, but begotten of Him, one in the same divine essence with him." You know all that important stuff. Or is that just stuff the stuffy types talk about to turn atheists off?

« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 11:00:47 PM by wainscottbl »
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Offline ShayneSwenson

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #81 on: July 26, 2014, 03:31:10 PM »
Frank was the first guy I looked into regarding "old school" christianity when I was an evangelical. Needless to say, I ran the other direction towards the catholic church due to what he had to say. He seemed more lost than me, even in the 90's. He is the incarnation of the "spirit of the age". He is walking, talking, post-modernism with a relativistic hard candy shell. Melts in your brain, not in your soul.
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Offline ShayneSwenson

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #82 on: July 26, 2014, 03:33:36 PM »
If Frank is the question, Chesterton is the answer. :-*
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 03:35:55 PM by ShayneSwenson »
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Offline Thomas

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Re: Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox
« Reply #83 on: July 26, 2014, 04:30:33 PM »
I amclosing this topic it seems to discussing and rediscussing the same thingover and over agian. The topic is truely dead and is Closed.

Thanks for participating.

Thomas
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Thomas