Frank Schaeffer is Orthodox

[adampjr]

Firstly, I am not trying to just slam the guy personally. But I find the following concerning, and wonder if this is type of thing prevelant in Orthodoxy. I say this as a serious inquirer and somewhat regular visitor, and hopeful future convert who is coming from Reformed Protestantism.

As an introduction, Frank Schaeffer is the son of famous (at least here in America) Evangelical Christian Francis Schaeffer, who was a big early proponent of the Christian Right here. Long story short, he left that environment, became a political liberal (which is of course fine, I'm not trying to make this expressly political), and regularly expresses some usually false and vitriolic hatred for conservative Christians.

As far as I can tell pro-choice (I know there are Christians who disagree with me about this, no big deal - he's certainly more anti-pro-life than anything else) and pro-gay marriage. However, his biggest contribution to the whole editorial scene of this country is his consistent charge (borne out in multiple books) that Protestant Christians are women haters who fear female sexuality.  Now, that's of course factually false since the Reformed position on sexuality is quite clear and even on both sexes. Besides findign that charge offensive, I fail to see how that does not equally apply to his church if it does at all. After all, you allhave two notions that are wholly foreign to modern Protestantism (no pre-fall sexuality and the Ever-Virginity of Mary) which seem to be along the lines of what Schaeffer is saying. Schaeffer, in taking the opposite position from Evangelicals (monogamy) that he is in favor or looser sexuality. You will find that he is actually extremely coy about saying what he is actually for in the midst of condemning evangelicals. It is his attitudes on sexuality and sexual sin I find most concerning, more so than political issues aobut how the state particularly should handle those issues.

So, a few questions. 1. Is this guy a communicant member of the orthodox church? 2. Is this sort of stuff concerning to orthodox or only to Protestants? 3. Is this at all a common attitude towards sexuality in Orthodox circles? It appers NOT to be from reading orthodox sources and meeting people at the parish I visit (who ahve never said "Oh you're background is Reformed? You must hate women and we support liscentiousness."

[Agabus]

So, a few questions. 1. Is this guy a communicant member of the orthodox church?

I think so. There's a thread around here where people obsess over his latest writings.

I know his father was Christian famous and Franky was Ortho-famous because he wrote that mediocre book and gave some mediocre talks a while back, but I personally find the lay obsession with his fall from lay-grace a little strange.

2. Is this sort of stuff concerning to orthodox or only to Protestants? 3. Is this at all a common attitude towards sexuality in Orthodox circles?

To some.

The stance of the Church on sex is what it is (though it has generally evolved historically from 'all sex is icky' to 'married sex is OK'). Some people -- and on this forum, a lot lately -- don't care for it. In reality, there's a mixture of people who keep what to what are the traditional sexual mores and a larger portion of those who don't. So the situation on the ground is pretty much the same as you would see in Protestant circles.

It appers NOT to be from reading orthodox sources and meeting people at the parish I visit (who ahve never said "Oh you're background is Reformed? You must hate women and we support liscentiousness."

It's not generally considered polite to push social policy at coffee hour.

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

Frank Schaeffer's historical and theological apologetics for the Orthdox Faith are excellent. But when he delves into politics and social commentary, he goes off the deep end. His political and social views are obviously shaped from his personal bitterness from the negative experiences he endured growing up in his father's quasi-cult. When he articulates the historicity of the Orthodox Church, he remains objective and is a wonderful defender of the Faith. But his objectivity quickly evaporates when he discusses political and social topics.



Selam

[adampjr]

So, a few questions. 1. Is this guy a communicant member of the orthodox church?

I think so. There's a thread around here where people obsess over his latest writings.

I know his father was Christian famous and Franky was Ortho-famous because he wrote that mediocre book and gave some mediocre talks a while back, but I personally find the lay obsession with his fall from lay-grace a little strange.

2. Is this sort of stuff concerning to orthodox or only to Protestants? 3. Is this at all a common attitude towards sexuality in Orthodox circles?

To some.

The stance of the Church on sex is what it is (though it has generally evolved historically from 'all sex is icky' to 'married sex is OK'). Some people -- and on this forum, a lot lately -- don't care for it. In reality, there's a mixture of people who keep what to what are the traditional sexual mores and a larger portion of those who don't. So the situation on the ground is pretty much the same as you would see in Protestant circles.

It appers NOT to be from reading orthodox sources and meeting people at the parish I visit (who ahve never said "Oh you're background is Reformed? You must hate women and we support liscentiousness."

It's not generally considered polite to push social policy at coffee hour.

I don't know the proper Orthodox opinion on Protestants, I'd like to believe that Protestants still love and worship the same God, albeit in a strange and erroneous way, but out of a good heart. And as a current-former Protestant with many friends who are good Christians, I generally take serious offense to Schaeffer's comments about us and was flabbergasted to find he was Orthodox (I had put him in that traditional "I grew up Christian and now I'm not so imma act like a bitter toddler" camp of former Christian atheists I know all too well). But its not really the political thing that concerns me, since I dont think there is an Orthodox opinion on internal national politics like this. It's the open support for sexual immorality and the condemnation of those who oppose what sexual immorality that I find most offensive coming from a Christian, and concerning as someone looking into Orthodox Christianity in particular.

Thanks for the response.

[adampjr]

Frank Schaeffer's historical and theological apologetics for the Orthdox Faith are excellent. But when he delves into politics and social commentary, he goes off the deep end. His political and social views are obviously shaped from his personal bitterness from the negative experiences he endured growing up in his father's quasi-cult. When he articulates the historicity of the Orthodox Church, he remains objective and is a wonderful defender of the Faith. But his objectivity quickly evaporates when he discusses political and social topics.



Selam

Thanks to you as well. I might try and look into his orthodox stuff, but I'd have a hard time hearing him out after all the insults he's slung my way.

[Alpo]

I though he is an apostate now? There was some thread about it a while ago.

[Punch]

Pretty much any discussion on "Protestants" is doomed to failure since there is really no such thing as a unified religion.  Most Confessional Lutheran (the original Protestants) would consider most of the "protestant" views held by the Shaeffers as heretical.  So would probably any main line Protestant confession of, lets say, around 1900.  I never much cared for "Franky", although my parents darn near worshiped his father.  I came into the Orthodox Church along with a big surge of Protestants of many stripes in the early to mid '90s.  It seemed like there was a big deal made about "big names" converting to Orthodoxy.  Problem is, they never really seem all that converted to me.  They seemed like a bunch of wild eyed Charismatics and Evangelicals trying to find their idea of the "early Church" rather than anyone that had any real theological roots.  I was told by a couple of Orthodox Priests that they prefered Lutheran converts since most of them did not come into the Orthodox Church looking for some magical emotional religion, but came into the Church after being convinced by the Scriptures and the Fathers that they were wrong.

[adampjr]

Pretty much any discussion on "Protestants" is doomed to failure since there is really no such thing as a unified religion.  Most Confessional Lutheran (the original Protestants) would consider most of the "protestant" views held by the Shaeffers as heretical.  So would probably any main line Protestant confession of, lets say, around 1900.  I never much cared for "Franky", although my parents darn near worshiped his father.  I came into the Orthodox Church along with a big surge of Protestants of many stripes in the early to mid '90s.  It seemed like there was a big deal made about "big names" converting to Orthodoxy.  Problem is, they never really seem all that converted to me.  They seemed like a bunch of wild eyed Charismatics and Evangelicals trying to find their idea of the "early Church" rather than anyone that had any real theological roots.  I was told by a couple of Orthodox Priests that they prefered Lutheran converts since most of them did not come into the Orthodox Church looking for some magical emotional religion, but came into the Church after being convinced by the Scriptures and the Fathers that they were wrong.

True, Protestant covers a wide variety of church groups as well as independent local churches. I come from the Calvinist Reformed tradition, and was largely led by Scripture and historical reading to visit the Orthodox parish.
I never cared much for Francis Schaeffer personally, but I find his son entirely offensive.

[jah777]

I think a very short answer to your question is that if you are interested in Orthodoxy and what the Orthodox Church teaches, you are better off with sources other than Frank Schaeffer.  It is best to speak with a parish priest and read books written by the saints and Fathers of the Church, both contemporary and ancient.  Most contemporary books by contemporary authors are garbage, to be honest.   

[LBK]

if you are interested in Orthodoxy and what the Orthodox Church teaches, you are better off with sources other than Frank Schaeffer. It is best to speak with a parish priest and read books written by the saints and Fathers of the Church, both contemporary and ancient.

Dare I say that the best and most accessible source of what the Church truly teaches and believes is what is read, chanted and sung in the cycle of services, and what is depicted in canonical icons. A good priest can use this basis as a sound foundation for any serious enquirer.

[katherineofdixie]

I never even heard of Frank or his father until I became Orthodox! I read one of his books - that was enough.

[Agabus]

His political and social views are obviously shaped from his personal bitterness from the negative experiences he endured growing up in his father's quasi-cult.

This.

It seemed like there was a big deal made about "big names" converting to Orthodoxy.  Problem is, they never really seem all that converted to me.  They seemed like a bunch of wild eyed Charismatics and Evangelicals trying to find their idea of the "early Church" rather than anyone that had any real theological roots.  I was told by a couple of Orthodox Priests that they prefered Lutheran converts since most of them did not come into the Orthodox Church looking for some magical emotional religion, but came into the Church after being convinced by the Scriptures and the Fathers that they were wrong.

We do love to parade our converts who bring name recognition. It's like they validate the faith or something.

While I appreciate a well-spoken apologist for the faith as much as anyone, I wonder at the good it does to give relatively recent converts like Troy Pol-whatever and Jonathan Jackson so much attention. I don’t mean to comment on the state of their conversion  — I don’t know them and likely will never meet either — and hope only the best for them, but I find the tendency among Orthodox converts to jump on a fan bandwagon of someone semi-famous because they have become Orthodox to be something worth taking a moment to examine. Franky was once considered our golden boy, after all.

I though he is an apostate now? There was some thread about it a while ago.

Some posters here declared him apostate. None of us actually knows.

I don't know the proper Orthodox opinion on Protestants, I'd like to believe that Protestants still love and worship the same God, albeit in a strange and erroneous way, but out of a good heart.

I think that's the general opinion. Or at least my opinion. We don't have a dogmatic statement about it.

And as a current-former Protestant with many friends who are good Christians, I generally take serious offense to Schaeffer's comments about us and was flabbergasted to find he was Orthodox (I had put him in that traditional "I grew up Christian and now I'm not so imma act like a bitter toddler" camp of former Christian atheists I know all too well). But its not really the political thing that concerns me, since I dont think there is an Orthodox opinion on internal national politics like this. It's the open support for sexual immorality and the condemnation of those who oppose what sexual immorality that I find most offensive coming from a Christian, and concerning as someone looking into Orthodox Christianity in particular.

Franky is not a spokesman for the Church. He's just some dude with a bully pulpit.

If you ask most laymen on the ground what the Church says about sex (again, not that it ever actually gets talked about in church), they'll give you some variant of the traditional arrangement, even if they don't necessarily agree with it themselves — I guess like Bad Catholics™. And of course many people do agree with it, even when they fail. And some don't fail.

[theo philosopher]

I would hope everyone here recognizes that no one validates Franky's claims against his father. While it's true that Francis had quite the temper - a fact that's not hidden - Franky embellished quite a bit. To say that Francis had a "quasi-cult" is quite insulting and ignorant.

I know Franky's sisters and brother-in-laws. I even know the priest who helped lead Franky to Orthodoxy. Franky is a very angry person, but that anger is misdirected. To date, not a single one of the Schaeffer children or those who grew up around the Schaeffers has validated many of Franky's statements on L'Abri. In his bitterness, he's exaggerating or, in some instances, lying about what he "endured."

All that said, I fail to see how this would prevent Franky from being Orthodox. All of us lie and are unjustifiably angry in our own way, so if he's prohibited from communion for such things, then all should be prohibited.

As a side note, anyone who has taken the time to read through Francis Schaeffer's entire works and listened to his lectures could see that he was easily moving towards Orthodoxy. It's no accident that Franky moved in that direction. Francis Schaeffer has been a major influence on my life and I dare say it's his teachings that directed me to Orthodoxy. Now that I'm reading Orthodox philosophers that predate Schaeffer (and one who was his contemporary, Fr. Seraphim Rose), it's difficult to see a difference.

A final note: Schaeffer was not a supporter of the Religious Right, nor did he influence it. The Religious Right was a bastardized message from Schaeffer's A Christian Manifesto. Almost everyone who followed Schaeffer and knew him personally has come to condemn the Religious Right for invoking his name and message in their twisted movement. In fact, much of what Schaeffer taught concerning Christian political action and the theory behind it is antithetical to the Religious Right's own approach.

[Nikolai Sergeev]

I hadn't known the guy till I found an interview with him on youtube (pops up first when you type in "orthodox" in the search field). He struck me as a very intelligent person and a good speaker. The video was on Orthodoxy vs Protestantism of course.

[Benjamin the Red]

Don't get hung up on Ortho-famous folks, from anywhere, unless they have "St." in front of their name.

[Christopher McAvoy]

Well, I for one will voice the opinion that Mr. Schaeffer for his heretical views deserves discipline from his bishop, excommunication being a means to that end if necessary. I wish him the best - but I for one have little interest in bishops who offer poor leadership toward their flock.

People such as Mr. Schaeffer are scandalous and depressing and I understand why they might frighten off newcomers from taking the Church seriously.   

We're here for our own salvation, but if a bishop isnt doing his job -  somebody better say something to him in an organized manner.

Sometimes bishops dont do their job because laity doesnt do it's job either.

We're all in this together !!

[Christopher McAvoy]

I though he is an apostate now? There was some thread about it a while ago.

If thats true that my previous post is irrelevant. C'est la vie. Mr. Schaeffer was participating in some ecumenical affair at the Marymount Univeristy in Los Angeles run by jesuits. That university is poison for orthodox, it REALLY very heterodox. I seem to recall people involved in the institute their or at least their professor friends down the hall endorse women priests and other tricks of the enemy.

If there is to be ecumenism with RC's it better at least be those representing authentic genuine RC patrimony, not the inhumane liberal protestants who snuck inside the trojan horse of vat. II and pretend to be RC.

[JoeS2]

Frank Schaeffer's historical and theological apologetics for the Orthdox Faith are excellent. But when he delves into politics and social commentary, he goes off the deep end. His political and social views are obviously shaped from his personal bitterness from the negative experiences he endured growing up in his father's quasi-cult. When he articulates the historicity of the Orthodox Church, he remains objective and is a wonderful defender of the Faith. But his objectivity quickly evaporates when he discusses political and social topics.



Selam

Yes, he should stick to religion and spare us his political views.....

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