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Author Topic: Wearing Catholic medals w/ baptismal cross  (Read 4182 times) Average Rating: 0
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Tikhon.of.Colorado
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« on: January 30, 2013, 03:19:57 AM »

My grandmother was a Pole through and through.  As such, she was an extremely devoted Catholic, and instilled within me my love for Christ (despite my non-religious parents.)

Upon my Babcia's death, I received her miraculous medal.  This is a really big deal for Catholics, especially for those on the more traditional end.  I won't go over the story of the medal, but I inherited it.  I'm thinking of wearing it on my chain with my baptismal cross. 

I was thinking, it not only reminds me of my Babcia and the Christian faith she gave me, but it's also a tremendous devotion to the Mother of God.  I'll probably wear it regardless (mwahaha,) but I wonder if it's that un Orthodox?  Despite the fact that it's a RC devotion, what's wrong with an Orthodox Christian wearing it?


(her medal has the inscription in French, as the medal here.  It was given to her at her birth in 1930.)
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 03:22:39 AM by trevor72694 » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2013, 03:58:36 AM »

I don't know whether it would be improper but I like the idea if you wear it as a memory of your grandmother and as a symbol of your devotion to the Mother of God and don't believe in various promises and apparitions attached to the medal. I have worn the medal of St. Benedict with my baptismal cross and I wore it simply because I St. Benedict is an Orthodox Saint. Too bad I lost the medal at some point.


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« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2013, 07:35:08 AM »

I know it's very popular among Roman Catholics, especially in Poland. They treat it as kind of a talisman (that's one of things I don't like regarding this "miraculous medalion") and there are even some organisations that give it to everybody to wear it or at least keep it in his/her wallet.

I was given this medalion many years ago too. It was before my conversion (however I was considering being officially Orthodox), so firstly, I was keeping it in my wallet, but then just hid it in my room - I can't throw it because, anyway, on this medalion the Theotokos is depicted.

The thing is not that it's from Roman Catholic, but all this stuff connected with it - treating it as an amulet, promises (one more proof of treating spiritual things too much legalistic by Roman Catholics) which fullfill if you wore this medalion, and the fact that this medalion confirms the heresy of Immaculate Conception.

Other Roman Catholic medalions (like st. Benedict's) or crosses are OK provided that they don't interfere with Orthodoxy.

If I were you, I would keep (but not wear) it becasue of sentimental reasons - it's a kind of reminder of your grandmother.
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« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2013, 07:38:00 AM »

Other Roman Catholic medalions (like st. Benedict's) or crosses are OK provided that they don't interfere with Orthodoxy

St. Benedict's medal is not treated as a talisman?
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« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2013, 07:53:44 AM »

I do not know if it is right or wrong in the eyes of Orthodoxy.  If someone can show you in a very clear way it is not a good thing according to the Orthodox Church, I would not wear it.  If not, I would wear it.  Personally, I see no problem, but I don’t speak for the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2013, 07:58:22 AM »

Other Roman Catholic medalions (like st. Benedict's) or crosses are OK provided that they don't interfere with Orthodoxy

St. Benedict's medal is not treated as a talisman?

To tell the truth, no idea. I think it's OK because st. Benedict, as you mentioned, is an Orthodox saint too. I don't know if there are any "promises' or other beliefs regarding this medalion (I've never been interested in the story of it). If they exist, it's better to ignore them and treat the medalion just as a petition to st. Benedict and the Holy Cross for protection
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« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2013, 08:10:58 AM »

Quote
If I were you, I would keep (but not wear) it becasue of sentimental reasons - it's a kind of reminder of your grandmother.

Excellent answer!  Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2013, 08:15:38 AM »

If I were you, I would keep (but not wear) it becasue of sentimental reasons - it's a kind of reminder of your grandmother.

This. Perhaps, if you want to have it close, you could string it on a key ring or a phone charm.
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« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2013, 09:50:19 AM »

I know it's very popular among Roman Catholics, especially in Poland. They treat it as kind of a talisman (that's one of things I don't like regarding this "miraculous medalion") and there are even some organisations that give it to everybody to wear it or at least keep it in his/her wallet.

I was given this medalion many years ago too. It was before my conversion (however I was considering being officially Orthodox), so firstly, I was keeping it in my wallet, but then just hid it in my room - I can't throw it because, anyway, on this medalion the Theotokos is depicted.

The thing is not that it's from Roman Catholic, but all this stuff connected with it - treating it as an amulet, promises (one more proof of treating spiritual things too much legalistic by Roman Catholics) which fullfill if you wore this medalion, and the fact that this medalion confirms the heresy of Immaculate Conception.

Other Roman Catholic medalions (like st. Benedict's) or crosses are OK provided that they don't interfere with Orthodoxy.

If I were you, I would keep (but not wear) it becasue of sentimental reasons - it's a kind of reminder of your grandmother.

Oh, that makes sense.  I also inherited one from my great uncle (a GIGANTIC silver one.)  My family wore these literally every hour of the day.

I've heard, with the scapular, that upon death the Mother of God will grant the wearer three wishes or something.  I hadn't heard about this medal.  What a bunch of superstitious nonsense!


This. Perhaps, if you want to have it close, you could string it on a key ring or a phone charm.
I think I'll just keep it in my icon corner.  Putting it with my phone or keys seems l a bit disrespectful to Catholicism in my mind.
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« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2013, 12:30:42 PM »

Any inanimate object can be treated as an amulet or talisman, supposedly imbued with special "powers"--even a 3-bar cross--if the owner/wearer regards it as such.  The fact that some people do this does not actually mean there is truth in the notion of the object having some kind of special "power", no matter which Church they are members of, no matter which devotions they practice.

My suggestion, fwiw, if you want to wear the medal as a sentimental reminder of your grandmother *and* as a *symbol* of your devotion to the Theotokos-----------go for it!

If you have real doubts or questions, there's always that old Eastern Christian maxim--"ask your priest".  Wink
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« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2013, 12:38:41 PM »

Putting it with my phone or keys seems l a bit disrespectful to Catholicism in my mind.

I disagree. We are called to sanctify our whole lives for God. Religion shouldn't be just about attending services or praying some specific prayers at some specific times. Hence I don't find keeping religious items as a part of our day-to-day lives anyhow disrespectful. On the contrary, it signifies that these items and our faith is important to us
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« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2013, 01:01:58 PM »


Trevor,

If you wear it simply as a reminder of your grandmother, and as an object of respect for the Theotokos, without any other mumbo-jumbo attached to it, I don't see why you couldn't wear it.   I have a tiny pin like this.  I had no idea it was supposed to have any super "powers" attached to it.  I also "inherited" it from my grandfather.  He was 1000% Orthodox, but, somehow had acquired this pin.  I never saw him wear it, but, I know it was in his belongings, and I took it when he died.  I have it in my pretty box, with other items that are special to me.  I take it out and look at it every once in a while, but, I've never worn it.

However, I have never understood how anyone can wear anything alongside their cross....on the same chain....rubbing against, covering, being equal to....the cross.

I've seen mom's who hang little baby shoes on the same chain, or medallions of little kids, others hang national symbols (in this case the Ukrainian Trident) on the same chain, etc.

To me, sharing the same chain with the cross, seems disrespectful to the Cross.  How can these other items be equal to the cross? 

Of course, that supposes that the cross isn't being worn merely as an article of jewelry, in which case, layer it on.

I have worn jewelry, in addition to my cross....however, never on the same chain as my cross.  I use another chain that hangs below the cross.

....but, that's just me.  I, too, don't speak for the Orthodox Church.

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« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2013, 01:43:57 PM »

However, I have never understood how anyone can wear anything alongside their cross....on the same chain....rubbing against, covering, being equal to....the cross.

My baptismal cross came with a medallion of the Theotokos, on the same chain. I wore them together as a child, and separated them when I was about 12. It might have been a local fad of the times (early '70s), but it stood me in good stead when I lost my cross and for several years could not afford to replace it - I had at least another religious piece to wear.
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« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2013, 02:49:12 PM »

the heresy of Immaculate Conception.

No council has condemned the IC as heresy, therefore we cannot make that claim.  Met. Kallistos even comments that the Orthodox can believe in the IC with no problems.  I will admit that many RCs today have weird understanding of the IC, most of which are not even found in the dogmatic declaration made by the Vatican.  So we shouldn't call it heretical based on the misconceptions held even by the Roman Catholics.
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« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2013, 03:12:38 PM »

the heresy of Immaculate Conception.

No council has condemned the IC as heresy, therefore we cannot make that claim. 

What's with the obsession of modern Christians with councils? If some doctrine is not part of Tradition, it's heresy irregardless of whether it is condemned by councils or not.
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« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2013, 03:20:05 PM »

the heresy of Immaculate Conception.

No council has condemned the IC as heresy, therefore we cannot make that claim. 

What's with the obsession of modern Christians with councils? If some doctrine is not part of Tradition, it's heresy irregardless of whether it is condemned by councils or not.

I would agree that making the belief a doctrine is an issue, but the belief itself, is it heretical?  And who are we anyway to make such a declaration?  Without the wisdom of the Church how can we say we know better?  Every Church Father who fought heresy fought to get recognition of that fact by the entire Church.  They didn't just leave it to personal opinion and said, "well, its not part of tradition and that's that."  Heresy is a big deal, that is why it has to go through such a formal process.  Otherwise we're just a bunch of fundamentalists running around calling everyone and everything we don't like as heretics regardless of reality.
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« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2013, 03:27:37 PM »

I was talking about certain tendencey that people seem to have that Orthodoxy can be reduced to set of councils and their declerations or that if some council hasn't specifically forbidden or said anything about some question we are free to believe what we want. That's not how it works.

I agree though that we should not be running around shouting anathemas to everything we encounter
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« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2013, 03:46:44 PM »

I was talking about certain tendencey that people seem to have that Orthodoxy can be reduced to set of councils and their declerations or that if some council hasn't specifically forbidden or said anything about some question we are free to believe what we want. That's not how it works.

I agree though that we should not be running around shouting anathemas to everything we encounter

Well, as I pointed out, Met. Kallistos has come out saying that there is nothing inherently wrong with the Immaculate Conception and Orthodox Christians can believe in it.  Given that it is the opinion of one bishop, it just proves that at least for the IC, yes, we are free to accept it or not.  And when I made my transition from Catholicism to Orthodoxy, I did question the IC and I was quite surprised that many of the problems of the IC as we know it is not part of the dogma.  A lot has been said in addition to what the Roman Catholic Church actually teaches about the dogma.  So if we take what we would read from most online forum posts or even from casual conversations with Catholics, even from their clergy, it does sound like the IC is heretical.  But if we look at what the RCC actually says about the IC, to my surprise, it is quite Orthodox, at least in my opinion.  Sure, we can argue that it shouldn't be a a dogma, but besides that there isn't much that is wrong with at least what is in Ineffabilis Deus.
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« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2013, 03:52:51 PM »


Just because Met. Kallistos said it's okay, doesn't mean it's okay.  Wink
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« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2013, 03:57:35 PM »


Just because Met. Kallistos said it's okay, doesn't mean it's okay.  Wink

Like I said, I know it is the opinion of one bishop, but that goes to show that there is no consensus that this is a heresy.
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« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2013, 04:44:25 PM »

I disagree. We are called to sanctify our whole lives for God. Religion shouldn't be just about attending services or praying some specific prayers at some specific times. Hence I don't find keeping religious items as a part of our day-to-day lives anyhow disrespectful. On the contrary, it signifies that these items and our faith is important to us
Good points, all.  But I wouldn't put a copy of the Bible in my sock drawer, put my prayer rope with my medals, or keep an icon of the Mother of God with the family pictures.  Things have their place.
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« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2013, 05:37:07 PM »

the heresy of Immaculate Conception.

No council has condemned the IC as heresy, therefore we cannot make that claim.  Met. Kallistos even comments that the Orthodox can believe in the IC with no problems.  I will admit that many RCs today have weird understanding of the IC, most of which are not even found in the dogmatic declaration made by the Vatican.  So we shouldn't call it heretical based on the misconceptions held even by the Roman Catholics.

Immaculate Conception is contrary to the teaching of the Orthodox Church (Christ is only one human without any sin, as it's written in the Orthodox hymnography, which is the confirmation of the teaching). It destroy the Orthodox understanding of the History of Salvation, the Holy Cross and Pascha. So all these things indicate it is a heresy, and, generally Orthodox bishops and clergy say so.

Roman Catholic Pope has accepted all (or most) of these weird theories regarding this topic, which are mainly from all these "revelations" such as Lourdes, "the miraculous medalion" etc.

We don't have to be bishops to contradict such claims. And of course I don't want say "anathema" to anybody. I'm just a laywoman and we shouldn't judge people at all. I know that there are many Roman Catholics who are unaware of the content and meaning of the "dogma" of Immaculate Conception.
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« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2013, 06:04:47 PM »

I'll probably wear it regardless (mwahaha,) but I wonder if it's that un Orthodox?  Despite the fact that it's a RC devotion, what's wrong with an Orthodox Christian wearing it?

The inscription is: "O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee".  Since I've read numerous times here that everyone is conceived without sin that shouldn't be a problem.  More problematic is the image: no Christ, no three stars of ever-virginity, Sacred and Immaculate Hearts portrayed.

Honestly though you don't know by now some posters will say its ok to keep but not wear and some will advise getting rid of it so you don't get Catholic cooties?
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« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2013, 06:09:28 PM »

Honestly though you don't know by now some posters will say its ok to keep but not wear and some will advise getting rid of it so you don't get Catholic cooties?

Aww, you're taking all the fun out of it, Deacon Lance!  Grin

(Also, yes, and don't we also know by now that the correct answer is "ask your priest/spiritual father"?  Cool )
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« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2013, 09:00:41 PM »

(Also, yes, and don't we also know by now that the correct answer is "ask your priest/spiritual father"?  Cool )

Is it really that big of a deal?  I'd think that Father is much more concerned with the welfare of the Church and the struggles of his spiritual children than what I choose to wear around my neck. Smiley

And, anyway, at least I haven't also put on my grandmother's silver Matka Boska Częstochowska/Jana Pawła II medal, as much as I want to. Wink
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« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2013, 09:34:51 PM »

(Also, yes, and don't we also know by now that the correct answer is "ask your priest/spiritual father"?  Cool )

Is it really that big of a deal?  I'd think that Father is much more concerned with the welfare of the Church and the struggles of his spiritual children than what I choose to wear around my neck. Smiley

Ask him to bless it if you're really that afraid of seeming overzealous. It's a normal request for a priest, and if it's something that he wouldn't want you wearing he'll tell you about it.
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« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2013, 09:36:32 PM »

Immaculate Conception is contrary to the teaching of the Orthodox Church (Christ is only one human without any sin, as it's written in the Orthodox hymnography, which is the confirmation of the teaching). It destroy the Orthodox understanding of the History of Salvation, the Holy Cross and Pascha. So all these things indicate it is a heresy, and, generally Orthodox bishops and clergy say so.

Roman Catholic Pope has accepted all (or most) of these weird theories regarding this topic, which are mainly from all these "revelations" such as Lourdes, "the miraculous medalion" etc.

We don't have to be bishops to contradict such claims. And of course I don't want say "anathema" to anybody. I'm just a laywoman and we shouldn't judge people at all. I know that there are many Roman Catholics who are unaware of the content and meaning of the "dogma" of Immaculate Conception.

I think the problem here, as with what most RCs believe today, is that a lot of things has already been inserted to what is originally taught as the IC.  When Met. Kallistos said the IC was acceptable, I don't think he was thinking of all these unofficial (yet surprisingly widely accepted) insertions.  I know that there is a belief that because the Theotokos did not commit any sin of her own, that she could have went to heaven even without the death of Christ on the Cross.  I don't find that anywhere in the dogma.  So whoever made that conclusion is making stuff up.  To reinterpret the IC in Orthodox terms, Mary was sanctified and grace-filled by God from the moment of her conception.  I don't see how that is against Orthodox belief.  The IC dogma does not say anything more than that.  There are many things said afterward that indeed is possibly heretical, but it was never part of the dogma.  We should be fair of our criticism here and separate fact from fiction.  The sad thing is that a lot of people have accepted these inclusions, but that doesn't change the fact that from the RC perspective, these inclusions are not dogmatc.  They are not part of the dogma.
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« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2013, 10:29:38 PM »

Quote
To reinterpret the IC in Orthodox terms, Mary was sanctified and grace-filled by God from the moment of her conception.  I don't see how that is against Orthodox belief.


I'm afraid you're wrong on this, choy. The hymnography of the Orthodox feast of the Conception of the Mother of God by St Anna makes absolutely no mention of an "immaculate conception". Where the Church is explicit on when the Mother of God was fully graced and sanctified is at the Annunciation.
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« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2013, 12:53:23 AM »

If I were you, I would keep (but not wear) it becasue of sentimental reasons - it's a kind of reminder of your grandmother.

This. Perhaps, if you want to have it close, you could string it on a key ring or a phone charm.

Nothing says love and respect like putting something on a key ring.
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« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2013, 12:56:53 AM »

If I were you, I would keep (but not wear) it becasue of sentimental reasons - it's a kind of reminder of your grandmother.

This. Perhaps, if you want to have it close, you could string it on a key ring or a phone charm.

Nothing says love and respect like putting something on a key ring.
Exactly.

I don't think that wearing a little gold Roman Catholic medal has the potential to rock my faith so much that it could be spiritually bad.  I'm going to wear it and honor the memory of my grandmother.

The fact that it simply being an RC devotion, it deserves disrespect is simply ridiculous. 

What if a Protestant liked an Orthodox icon medallion of the Theotokos, but since he wasn't part of our tradition, let it dangle with his keys or from his cell phone?



If you wear it simply as a reminder of your grandmother, and as an object of respect for the Theotokos, without any other mumbo-jumbo attached to it, I don't see why you couldn't wear it. 


Sure.  Besides, if I wear both my blessed cross and my babcia's immaculate metal, I'm sure to ward off Baba Jaga better than wearing just one. Wink
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« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2013, 12:59:56 AM »

My grandmother was a Pole through and through.  As such, she was an extremely devoted Catholic, and instilled within me my love for Christ (despite my non-religious parents.)

Upon my Babcia's death, I received her miraculous medal.  This is a really big deal for Catholics, especially for those on the more traditional end.  I won't go over the story of the medal, but I inherited it.  I'm thinking of wearing it on my chain with my baptismal cross.  

I was thinking, it not only reminds me of my Babcia and the Christian faith she gave me, but it's also a tremendous devotion to the Mother of God.  I'll probably wear it regardless (mwahaha,) but I wonder if it's that un Orthodox?  Despite the fact that it's a RC devotion, what's wrong with an Orthodox Christian wearing it?


(her medal has the inscription in French, as the medal here.  It was given to her at her birth in 1930.)

Trevor the story is lovely. Your "concerns" troubling. If you want to wear it, wear it. For goodness sake. Are you going to return to overly vexed Trevor again after getting bored with overly liberal Trevor?

Do you think the people here who make mountains out of molehills are a good source of info about something so personal?

Just wear it. I have a similar medal from a non-family member and for that reason alone it means a lot. I don't wear it, cause I don't wear anything. But it is one of the very few momentos I've kept over time.

If I wore jewelry, then I might wear it, but I would be afraid of losing it like I do any jewelry I wear.

Again a beautiful story and a witness to the incarnational nature of Christianity and love! What a sad state of affairs for such a symbol in the truest sense to be reduced to mere sentimentality.

FWIW.

« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 01:02:15 AM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2013, 01:01:23 AM »

If I were you, I would keep (but not wear) it becasue of sentimental reasons - it's a kind of reminder of your grandmother.

This. Perhaps, if you want to have it close, you could string it on a key ring or a phone charm.

Nothing says love and respect like putting something on a key ring.
Exactly.

I don't think that wearing a little gold Roman Catholic medal has the potential to rock my faith so much that it could be spiritually bad.  I'm going to wear it and honor the memory of my grandmother.

The fact that it simply being an RC devotion, it deserves disrespect is simply ridiculous. 

What if a Protestant liked an Orthodox icon medallion of the Theotokos, but since he wasn't part of our tradition, let it dangle with his keys or from his cell phone?



If you wear it simply as a reminder of your grandmother, and as an object of respect for the Theotokos, without any other mumbo-jumbo attached to it, I don't see why you couldn't wear it. 


Sure.  Besides, if I wear both my blessed cross and my babcia's immaculate metal, I'm sure to ward off Baba Jaga better than wearing just one. Wink


Our posts went through "together".
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« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2013, 01:03:40 AM »


Trevor the story is lovely. Your "concerns" troubling. If you want to wear it, wear it. For goodness sake. Are you going to return to overly vexed Trevor again after getting bored with overly liberal Trevor?

After a good talking to with my priest, my mission is to be neither overly zealous nor overly "liberal."  Working on a happy medium. Smiley

I'm wearing it anyway regardless, I just wanted to know the thoughts of other OCnet-ers (for fun, I suppose.)

I hope you're well, Orthonorm.  Smiley
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« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2013, 01:12:00 AM »

Exactly.

I don't think that wearing a little gold Roman Catholic medal has the potential to rock my faith so much that it could be spiritually bad.  I'm going to wear it and honor the memory of my grandmother.

The fact that it simply being an RC devotion, it deserves disrespect is simply ridiculous.

While I disagree with the theology/visions surrounding the MM, I definitely agree with you. I know someone that has a Divine Mercy image in remembrance of their grandmother's (IIRC) devotion, which isn't too dissimilar.
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« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2013, 04:39:28 PM »

I think it turned out well.  I'll wear it no matter what.  My grandmother told me, when I was little, that I'd inherit after her death.  She wanted me to wear it when I got it (she never took this thing off when she was alive.)



I can't see the Lord or the Theotokos getting too offended. 
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« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2013, 04:50:31 PM »

I had a miraculous medal once. Stopped wearing it a while ago, didn't want to wear something with heterodox symbols and associated with heterodox apparitions.
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« Reply #36 on: February 03, 2013, 04:55:04 PM »

heterodox apparitions.
Which makes me think:  Are we to assume that apparitions of the Theotokos a/o Christ are just the result of some sort of delusion if they occurred to the heterodox (Our Lady of Fatima, Miraculous apparition, Virgin of Guadalupe, etc.?)
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« Reply #37 on: February 03, 2013, 04:57:31 PM »

heterodox apparitions.
Which makes me think:  Are we to assume that apparitions of the Theotokos a/o Christ are just the result of some sort of delusion if they occurred to the heterodox (Our Lady of Fatima, Miraculous apparition, Virgin of Guadalupe, etc.?)

Most of those apparitions (except for Guadalupe) have affirmed things Orthodox would hold to be heretical/in error, such as the Immaculate Conception. Take that as you will.
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« Reply #38 on: February 03, 2013, 10:15:43 PM »

heterodox apparitions.
Which makes me think:  Are we to assume that apparitions of the Theotokos a/o Christ are just the result of some sort of delusion if they occurred to the heterodox (Our Lady of Fatima, Miraculous apparition, Virgin of Guadalupe, etc.?)
Guadalupe is fine, but the others, as William said, are extremely problematic without either delusion or deceit on behalf of the visionaries. Fatima is a good example in that it affirms the Roman Catholic Church, the Pope, purgatory, indulgences, etc.
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« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2013, 03:33:06 AM »

I don't know whether it would be improper but I like the idea if you wear it as a memory of your grandmother and as a symbol of your devotion to the Mother of God and don't believe in various promises and apparitions attached to the medal. I have worn the medal of St. Benedict with my baptismal cross and I wore it simply because I St. Benedict is an Orthodox Saint. Too bad I lost the medal at some point.




I'll look in my box of medals.  If I have one I will give it to you.
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« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2013, 03:34:00 AM »

Final verdict:  Wearing the two makes me jingle when I walk, so I've taken the gold medal off.  It's safe at home in my icon corner. Smiley
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« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2013, 03:38:52 AM »

Final verdict:  Wearing the two makes me jingle when I walk, so I've taken the gold medal off.  It's safe at home in my icon corner. Smiley

I wouldn't want to loose it either, probably safer in the icon corner.
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« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2013, 03:42:50 AM »

heterodox apparitions.
Which makes me think:  Are we to assume that apparitions of the Theotokos a/o Christ are just the result of some sort of delusion if they occurred to the heterodox (Our Lady of Fatima, Miraculous apparition, Virgin of Guadalupe, etc.?)

Not necessarily.  Jesus appeared to St. Paul when he was a Jewish zealot, I don't see why Christ or the Theotokos cannot appear to one who is Heterodox today.  But of course the message would be the key, as pointed out in this thread.
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« Reply #43 on: February 04, 2013, 03:44:00 AM »

Quote
To reinterpret the IC in Orthodox terms, Mary was sanctified and grace-filled by God from the moment of her conception.  I don't see how that is against Orthodox belief.


I'm afraid you're wrong on this, choy. The hymnography of the Orthodox feast of the Conception of the Mother of God by St Anna makes absolutely no mention of an "immaculate conception". Where the Church is explicit on when the Mother of God was fully graced and sanctified is at the Annunciation.

But it is not heretical to think that she was grace filled from conception.  In fact, doesn't the Feast of the Entrance point to the fact that she was grace filled at that age (which is 2 or 3, I forgot).
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« Reply #44 on: February 04, 2013, 03:52:52 AM »

Quote
To reinterpret the IC in Orthodox terms, Mary was sanctified and grace-filled by God from the moment of her conception.  I don't see how that is against Orthodox belief.


I'm afraid you're wrong on this, choy. The hymnography of the Orthodox feast of the Conception of the Mother of God by St Anna makes absolutely no mention of an "immaculate conception". Where the Church is explicit on when the Mother of God was fully graced and sanctified is at the Annunciation.

But it is not heretical to think that she was grace filled from conception.  In fact, doesn't the Feast of the Entrance point to the fact that she was grace filled at that age (which is 2 or 3, I forgot).

The hymns anticipate the fullness of grace that the Mother of God is to receive at the Annunciation. Example:

The blessed Anna cried out, rejoicing: “Zachariah, take her whom the prophets of God proclaimed in the Spirit, and lead her into the holy temple to be brought up in reverence, that she may become the divine throne of the Master of all: His palace, His resting-place, and His dwelling filled with light.”

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