Author Topic: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members  (Read 15107 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline dzheremi

  • No longer posting here.
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,383
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #360 on: February 04, 2013, 12:56:53 AM »
That's why their kids are always misbehaved, but emotionally healthy. Whereas, religious kids are always well behaved, but then emotionally unstable during adulthood needing therapy.

Without broaching what "always misbehaved, but emotionally healthy" could possibly mean, isn't it inadvisable to make such sweeping generalizations about people based on the religious outlook of their parents? The vast majority of agnostically or atheistically-minded people I know were raised in at least passively religious environments (several actively religious, as well), and came to reject or at least be ambivalent about religion later in life, without the aid or complication of therapy.

And my best friend in junior high/high school experimented for some of that time with homosexuality and bisexuality. He was raised in an atheistic household, but always hiding his curiosity from his family because his parents were very openly anti-homosexual, and his father's views in particular had a big impact on his younger brother in their former years, making for a very toxic environment. My friend ended up on the street off an on from about age 16 to 20 due to mental illness issues aggravated (he said some of his therapists said "brought on") by the stress of trying to be okay with some of what he was doing/feeling at the time while his family's message that it was definitely not okay (I can't use the words I heard in good conscience, but I remember being with his family at several times as a teenager when his father and/or younger brother would go off on how gross/immoral/worthy of terrible things homosexuals are, completely oblivious to the effect this was having on him). He's been happily, heterosexually married for years now, so it's most likely that this was a teenage phase/confusion, but I know that he's never forgotten this period of his life and the effect it had on him. As his friend, I haven't either. (This is one of the many, many reasons I do not accept the presumption of some people on the internet that if you are against the forced acceptance of homosexuality/the criminalization of traditional Christian teachings on homosexuality, that means you hate homosexuals or want them to die or whatever...I was unaware that I secretly wanted my best friend to die during all the years that I spent taking collect calls from him while he was on the street or in various mental hospitals, and the many years since then, during which I have never, ever stopped being his friend and supporting him...)

Actually, it is quite possible he is bisexual.

Tell that to his wife of 6-7 years. Having known him for about 20 years at this point, I'm betting that the sexually-confused phase of his life (like his drug experimentation around the same period) was part of the same "who am I?" sort of thing that a lot of teenagers and young adults go through, seeing as how all of that stopped once he met the woman who would become his wife. He cleaned up his life in a big way, got a steady job that afforded him the opportunity to buy a house and a little land, and has lived happily ever since in rural Oregon. Other than his taste in music (he still loves heavy metal; I've never understood it), I'd think he was a completely different guy than the kid I grew up with. He knows who he is now. He's happy. He doesn't need drugs or sex with random people or any of that stuff. Perhaps not coincidentally, he told me last time I saw him that he really hasn't had any psych episodes to speak of in years. We're not very close anymore, but I'm so happy for him.

I know it's hard for younger, more socially progressive types to accept, but plenty of people who would've built their identities around being "gay" (or any number of other things) do eventually grow up and realize that it was a phase in their development/maturation, not "who they are". I'm certainly not saying that this is how it is for everybody, but it is not as uncommon as you might think. He's certainly not the only one I know who has that type of past (I can think of at least half a dozen other people, male and female, I grew up with who went through similar struggles with their sexuality in their teens and early 20s, and I grew up in a tiny town of about 10K, not a big city with an organized "gay scene" or whatever). I suppose the difference now (socially speaking) is that with all the insanity surrounding sexual identity being a battleground at every level at an increasingly young age, if most of the people I have known who thought they were gay in high school and later realized they weren't were going through high school now, they might feel pressure to become gay activists or whatever and become sexual cause celebres, thereby probably prolonging their confusion and delaying their ability to move on with their lives/become more complete, well-rounded people.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,868
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #361 on: February 04, 2013, 01:02:46 AM »
You never see atheist parents rejecting their children because of their sexuality and/or religious beliefs, whereas religious parents do...
How many atheist parents have you known personally?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,868
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #362 on: February 04, 2013, 01:04:06 AM »
I've never seen an atheist parent reject their kid based on something like beliefs on sexuality. On the other hand, what I have observed among them is that they don't teach their kids crap, because in their eyes, expressing authority automatically equals abuse. That's why their kids are always misbehaved, but emotionally healthy. Whereas, religious kids are always well behaved, but then emotionally unstable during adulthood needing therapy.
Again, how many families have you seen?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline JamesRottnek

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,123
  • I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #363 on: February 04, 2013, 01:07:05 AM »
That's why their kids are always misbehaved, but emotionally healthy. Whereas, religious kids are always well behaved, but then emotionally unstable during adulthood needing therapy.

Without broaching what "always misbehaved, but emotionally healthy" could possibly mean, isn't it inadvisable to make such sweeping generalizations about people based on the religious outlook of their parents? The vast majority of agnostically or atheistically-minded people I know were raised in at least passively religious environments (several actively religious, as well), and came to reject or at least be ambivalent about religion later in life, without the aid or complication of therapy.

And my best friend in junior high/high school experimented for some of that time with homosexuality and bisexuality. He was raised in an atheistic household, but always hiding his curiosity from his family because his parents were very openly anti-homosexual, and his father's views in particular had a big impact on his younger brother in their former years, making for a very toxic environment. My friend ended up on the street off an on from about age 16 to 20 due to mental illness issues aggravated (he said some of his therapists said "brought on") by the stress of trying to be okay with some of what he was doing/feeling at the time while his family's message that it was definitely not okay (I can't use the words I heard in good conscience, but I remember being with his family at several times as a teenager when his father and/or younger brother would go off on how gross/immoral/worthy of terrible things homosexuals are, completely oblivious to the effect this was having on him). He's been happily, heterosexually married for years now, so it's most likely that this was a teenage phase/confusion, but I know that he's never forgotten this period of his life and the effect it had on him. As his friend, I haven't either. (This is one of the many, many reasons I do not accept the presumption of some people on the internet that if you are against the forced acceptance of homosexuality/the criminalization of traditional Christian teachings on homosexuality, that means you hate homosexuals or want them to die or whatever...I was unaware that I secretly wanted my best friend to die during all the years that I spent taking collect calls from him while he was on the street or in various mental hospitals, and the many years since then, during which I have never, ever stopped being his friend and supporting him...)

Actually, it is quite possible he is bisexual.

Tell that to his wife of 6-7 years. Having known him for about 20 years at this point, I'm betting that the sexually-confused phase of his life (like his drug experimentation around the same period) was part of the same "who am I?" sort of thing that a lot of teenagers and young adults go through, seeing as how all of that stopped once he met the woman who would become his wife. He cleaned up his life in a big way, got a steady job that afforded him the opportunity to buy a house and a little land, and has lived happily ever since in rural Oregon. Other than his taste in music (he still loves heavy metal; I've never understood it), I'd think he was a completely different guy than the kid I grew up with. He knows who he is now. He's happy. He doesn't need drugs or sex with random people or any of that stuff. Perhaps not coincidentally, he told me last time I saw him that he really hasn't had any psych episodes to speak of in years. We're not very close anymore, but I'm so happy for him.

I know it's hard for younger, more socially progressive types to accept, but plenty of people who would've built their identities around being "gay" (or any number of other things) do eventually grow up and realize that it was a phase in their development/maturation, not "who they are". I'm certainly not saying that this is how it is for everybody, but it is not as uncommon as you might think. He's certainly not the only one I know who has that type of past (I can think of at least half a dozen other people, male and female, I grew up with who went through similar struggles with their sexuality in their teens and early 20s, and I grew up in a tiny town of about 10K, not a big city with an organized "gay scene" or whatever). I suppose the difference now (socially speaking) is that with all the insanity surrounding sexual identity being a battleground at every level at an increasingly young age, if most of the people I have known who thought they were gay in high school and later realized they weren't were going through high school now, they might feel pressure to become gay activists or whatever and become sexual cause celebres, thereby probably prolonging their confusion and delaying their ability to move on with their lives/become more complete, well-rounded people.

I fail to see how any of this addresses my comment.
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline dzheremi

  • No longer posting here.
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,383
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #364 on: February 04, 2013, 01:09:25 AM »
This is not surprising to me.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,868
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #365 on: February 04, 2013, 01:12:09 AM »
If you can't prove it, he didn't say it.
?

Yeah, of all people, I'd not expect PTA to fall for that fallacy.
No fallacy... Just using a figure of speech to challenge you to provide evidence for your accusations...
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Kerdy

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,813
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #366 on: February 04, 2013, 01:18:54 AM »
That's why their kids are always misbehaved, but emotionally healthy. Whereas, religious kids are always well behaved, but then emotionally unstable during adulthood needing therapy.

Without broaching what "always misbehaved, but emotionally healthy" could possibly mean, isn't it inadvisable to make such sweeping generalizations about people based on the religious outlook of their parents? The vast majority of agnostically or atheistically-minded people I know were raised in at least passively religious environments (several actively religious, as well), and came to reject or at least be ambivalent about religion later in life, without the aid or complication of therapy.

And my best friend in junior high/high school experimented for some of that time with homosexuality and bisexuality. He was raised in an atheistic household, but always hiding his curiosity from his family because his parents were very openly anti-homosexual, and his father's views in particular had a big impact on his younger brother in their former years, making for a very toxic environment. My friend ended up on the street off an on from about age 16 to 20 due to mental illness issues aggravated (he said some of his therapists said "brought on") by the stress of trying to be okay with some of what he was doing/feeling at the time while his family's message that it was definitely not okay (I can't use the words I heard in good conscience, but I remember being with his family at several times as a teenager when his father and/or younger brother would go off on how gross/immoral/worthy of terrible things homosexuals are, completely oblivious to the effect this was having on him). He's been happily, heterosexually married for years now, so it's most likely that this was a teenage phase/confusion, but I know that he's never forgotten this period of his life and the effect it had on him. As his friend, I haven't either. (This is one of the many, many reasons I do not accept the presumption of some people on the internet that if you are against the forced acceptance of homosexuality/the criminalization of traditional Christian teachings on homosexuality, that means you hate homosexuals or want them to die or whatever...I was unaware that I secretly wanted my best friend to die during all the years that I spent taking collect calls from him while he was on the street or in various mental hospitals, and the many years since then, during which I have never, ever stopped being his friend and supporting him...)

Actually, it is quite possible he is bisexual.

Tell that to his wife of 6-7 years. Having known him for about 20 years at this point, I'm betting that the sexually-confused phase of his life (like his drug experimentation around the same period) was part of the same "who am I?" sort of thing that a lot of teenagers and young adults go through, seeing as how all of that stopped once he met the woman who would become his wife. He cleaned up his life in a big way, got a steady job that afforded him the opportunity to buy a house and a little land, and has lived happily ever since in rural Oregon. Other than his taste in music (he still loves heavy metal; I've never understood it), I'd think he was a completely different guy than the kid I grew up with. He knows who he is now. He's happy. He doesn't need drugs or sex with random people or any of that stuff. Perhaps not coincidentally, he told me last time I saw him that he really hasn't had any psych episodes to speak of in years. We're not very close anymore, but I'm so happy for him.

I know it's hard for younger, more socially progressive types to accept, but plenty of people who would've built their identities around being "gay" (or any number of other things) do eventually grow up and realize that it was a phase in their development/maturation, not "who they are". I'm certainly not saying that this is how it is for everybody, but it is not as uncommon as you might think. He's certainly not the only one I know who has that type of past (I can think of at least half a dozen other people, male and female, I grew up with who went through similar struggles with their sexuality in their teens and early 20s, and I grew up in a tiny town of about 10K, not a big city with an organized "gay scene" or whatever). I suppose the difference now (socially speaking) is that with all the insanity surrounding sexual identity being a battleground at every level at an increasingly young age, if most of the people I have known who thought they were gay in high school and later realized they weren't were going through high school now, they might feel pressure to become gay activists or whatever and become sexual cause celebres, thereby probably prolonging their confusion and delaying their ability to move on with their lives/become more complete, well-rounded people.

I fail to see how any of this addresses my comment.

Of course you do.

Offline yeshuaisiam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,697
  • A pulling horse cannot kick.
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #367 on: February 07, 2013, 01:14:58 PM »
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.

This is not a subject that should be debated.

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.

Not just sinful, but abominable!!!

Do you want somebody who has such a distraught and messed up family, who loves their own sex, will not engage in normal relations as God created us, to be the role model for your son or sons?

Us Christians DO NOT JUDGE homosexual behavior, GOD already did.  When we call homosexual behavior an abomination, we are only repeating what God called it.

No Christian should want their sons role models / mentors / troop leaders to be homosexuals.  End of story.
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,275
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #368 on: February 07, 2013, 01:42:59 PM »
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.

This is not a subject that should be debated.

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.

Not just sinful, but abominable!!!

Hey, it is called the abominable snowman but really, what are you going to do when he looks like this?














Rainbowiness, intentional . . .
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline mike

  • The Jerk
  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,582
  • Shevchenko - extraordinary poet and top footballer
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Makurian Orthodox
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #369 on: February 07, 2013, 01:50:12 PM »
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.

This is not a subject that should be debated.

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.

Not just sinful, but abominable!!!

Do you want somebody who has such a distraught and messed up family, who loves their own sex, will not engage in normal relations as God created us, to be the role model for your son or sons?

Us Christians DO NOT JUDGE homosexual behavior, GOD already did.  When we call homosexual behavior an abomination, we are only repeating what God called it.

No Christian should want their sons role models / mentors / troop leaders to be homosexuals.  End of story.


Scriptures say nothing about lesbians, do they?
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

not everything I typed before [insert current date] may reflect my current views on the subject

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,868
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #370 on: February 07, 2013, 01:57:49 PM »
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.

This is not a subject that should be debated.

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.
Do you eat oysters?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Deep Roots

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 370
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #371 on: February 07, 2013, 02:55:40 PM »
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.
yes

This is not a subject that should be debated.
meh

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.
yep

Not just sinful, but abominable!!!
ooohhhhh [!!!]

Do you want somebody who has such a distraught and messed up family, who loves their own sex, will not engage in normal relations as God created us, to be the role model for your son or sons?
I'd rather have that than, say, a greedy person or a hateful one -- absolutely. 

Us Christians DO NOT JUDGE homosexual behavior, GOD already did.  When we call homosexual behavior an abomination, we are only repeating what God called it.
k

No Christian should want their sons role models / mentors / troop leaders to be homosexuals.  End of story.
Or...you know, not.
Peace.

Offline Αριστοκλής

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,026
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #372 on: February 07, 2013, 04:04:25 PM »

Rainbowiness, intentional . . .


Coming out?

Your avatar might lead one to think so.  ;)
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,275
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #373 on: February 07, 2013, 04:07:08 PM »

Rainbowiness, intentional . . .


Coming out?

Your avatar might lead one to think so.  ;)

Out as what? What is that third thing?

That image cracked me up. I saw this whole tri-sexual symbol and it looked some graphic expression of modalism.

Hence it and the words beneath.

The rainbowage was pure plus on the image search.
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline Αριστοκλής

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,026
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #374 on: February 07, 2013, 04:09:17 PM »

Rainbowiness, intentional . . .


Coming out?

Your avatar might lead one to think so.  ;)

Out as what? What is that third thing?

That image cracked me up. I saw this whole tri-sexual symbol and it looked some graphic expression of modalism.

Hence it and the words beneath.

The rainbowage was pure plus on the image search.

It was just a test to flush you out of "Hidden" status.  :laugh:
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline ilyazhito

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 955
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #375 on: February 07, 2013, 04:17:49 PM »
I would withdraw from Boy Scouts if gays were allowed, because I would not want to be exposed to potential or actual pedophiles. Also, homosexuality would violate the "morally straight" provision on the scout oath. It would prevent a Scout from being reverent, because certain religions, such as Orthodox Christianity, do not accept homosexuality as a normal way of life. Accepting gays as Scouts implies accepting the gay way as normal, at least for Scouting.

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,275
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #376 on: February 07, 2013, 04:25:25 PM »
I would withdraw from Boy Scouts if gays were allowed, because I would not want to be exposed to potential or actual pedophiles. Also, homosexuality would violate the "morally straight" provision on the scout oath. It would prevent a Scout from being reverent, because certain religions, such as Orthodox Christianity, do not accept homosexuality as a normal way of life. Accepting gays as Scouts implies accepting the gay way as normal, at least for Scouting.

You are more likely going to find yourself the victim of pedophilia at the hands of a non-homosexual male than a homosexual one (this gets a bit into begging the question, but whatever).

And what age is one typically a Boy Scout? Ain't you too old to be the victim of pedophilia by that time?
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline ilyazhito

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 955
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #377 on: February 07, 2013, 04:35:57 PM »
This concern would be more for my son than for me, but man-on-man sexual abuse can happen at any age.

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,275
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #378 on: February 07, 2013, 04:38:24 PM »
This concern would be more for my son than for me, but man-on-man sexual abuse can happen at any age.

OK, and why do you think homosexual males are more likely to commit such abuse than non-homosexual men?
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline Deep Roots

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 370
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #379 on: February 07, 2013, 04:41:20 PM »
I would withdraw from Boy Scouts if gays were allowed, because I would not want to be exposed to potential or actual pedophiles.
:o    :D :D :D :D :D
Peace.

Offline JamesR

  • Virginal Chicano Blood
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,610
  • 1951-2015 Memory Eternal Uncle Roy--40 Days of Mourning.
  • Faith: Misotheistic Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #380 on: February 07, 2013, 04:46:46 PM »
Simba was raised by two men and he turned out just fine, becoming the new king of the jungle.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,580
  • Barlaam and Josaphat
    • The Mystical Theology
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #381 on: February 07, 2013, 04:54:17 PM »
Simba was raised by two men and he turned out just fine, becoming the new king of the jungle.
Quit lion.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Shiny

  • Site Supporter
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,267
  • Paint It Red
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #382 on: February 07, 2013, 05:00:27 PM »
Simba was raised by two men and he turned out just fine, becoming the new king of the jungle.
ROFL
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline That person

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,160
  • Long live Commie Superman
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #383 on: February 07, 2013, 06:12:20 PM »
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.

This is not a subject that should be debated.

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.

Not just sinful, but abominable!!!

Do you want somebody who has such a distraught and messed up family, who loves their own sex, will not engage in normal relations as God created us, to be the role model for your son or sons?

Us Christians DO NOT JUDGE homosexual behavior, GOD already did.  When we call homosexual behavior an abomination, we are only repeating what God called it.

No Christian should want their sons role models / mentors / troop leaders to be homosexuals.  End of story.


Scriptures say nothing about lesbians, do they?
Romans 1:26 seems to. Doesn't use the word "abomination" though. I did know one guy who thought, based on the Bible's general silence, that male homosexuality was wrong, but not female. I'm pretty sure he wanted to justify his girl-on-girl porn consumption. I can't say I'm unsympathetic.
"Some have such command of their bowels, that they can break wind continuously at pleasure, so as to produce the effect of singing."- St. Augustine of Hippo

Movie reviews you can trust.

Offline Deep Roots

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 370
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #384 on: February 07, 2013, 06:18:36 PM »
I did know one guy who thought, based on the Bible's general silence, that male homosexuality was wrong, but not female.
I had a student last semester in my Freshman Composition class make the same argument.  He is Muslim and it was great fun getting him to see the hypocrisy.
Peace.

Offline Deacon Lance

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,277
  • Faith: Byzantine Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #385 on: February 07, 2013, 07:32:55 PM »
And what age is one typically a Boy Scout? Ain't you too old to be the victim of pedophilia by that time?

11-17. Depends if the boy is prepubescent, but hebephilia and ephebophilia are illegal also.  I agree with you that a pedophile is just as likely to be heterosexual as homosexual, if not more likely.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline Deacon Lance

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,277
  • Faith: Byzantine Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #386 on: February 07, 2013, 07:38:24 PM »
I would withdraw from Boy Scouts if gays were allowed, because I would not want to be exposed to potential or actual pedophiles. Also, homosexuality would violate the "morally straight" provision on the scout oath. It would prevent a Scout from being reverent, because certain religions, such as Orthodox Christianity, do not accept homosexuality as a normal way of life. Accepting gays as Scouts implies accepting the gay way as normal, at least for Scouting.

The local charter organization has final say on who leaders are.  So even if National drops its policy, a troop owned by a  Catholic or Orthodox parish will be able to refuse membership to homosexuals.  What is also going unreported is churches with no opposition to homosexuals, like Unitarians  and Episcopals, already allow homosexuals in.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,868
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #387 on: February 07, 2013, 08:28:47 PM »
I would withdraw from Boy Scouts if gays were allowed, because I would not want to be exposed to potential or actual pedophiles.
Oy! That canard again. ::) What connection has ever been shown between homosexuality and pedophilia? Or have you so soon forgotten that the Boy Scouts have had a major problem with pedophilia even in spite of their ban on gays?

Also, homosexuality would violate the "morally straight" provision on the scout oath. It would prevent a Scout from being reverent, because certain religions, such as Orthodox Christianity, do not accept homosexuality as a normal way of life. Accepting gays as Scouts implies accepting the gay way as normal, at least for Scouting.
I can agree with this, though.
Not all who wander are lost.

Online TheMathematician

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,888
  • Formerly known as Montalo
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ACROD
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #388 on: February 07, 2013, 10:07:41 PM »
I've thought this one long as through, and as an Eagle and now Assistant Scoutmaster with now 14+ years in the Scouting movement, and what is comes down to for me is this.

The BSA needs to think if allowing gays into scouting would contradict with the "morally straight" aspect of the Scout Law. They need to act and choose based on what they view to be the right course of action, whatever it is. I will respect the BSA with whatever choice they make, as long as they are doing what they view to be the correct choice of action, and I will support thm with either choice they make.

HOWEVER, if they fold, and give in based on outside pressure and money, then my respect will go down for the BSA, as it is not the same organization as i joined in my youth, earned my eagle in, and am currently a volunteer in.


Big picture, regardless of their decision, the BSA is a good orginzation to support and be a part of, but if they fold, give up on their morals and duty to do what is right, then the orgiznation i know is gone.

Offline Ioannis Climacus

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 863
  • "There is no religion higher than TRUTH"
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #389 on: February 07, 2013, 10:50:22 PM »

Rainbowiness, intentional . . .


Coming out?

Your avatar might lead one to think so.  ;)

Out as what? What is that third thing?

That image cracked me up. I saw this whole tri-sexual symbol and it looked some graphic expression of modalism.

Hence it and the words beneath.

The rainbowage was pure plus on the image search.
Your avatar made a cameo on that schema-monk hoodie that's been going around :
Note : Many of my posts (especially the ones antedating late 2012) do not reflect charity, tact, or even views I presently hold. Please forgive me for any antagonism I have caused.

Offline Peter J

  • Formerly PJ
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,316
  • Faith: Melkite Catholic
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #390 on: February 08, 2013, 12:24:05 PM »
I would withdraw from Boy Scouts if gays were allowed, because I would not want to be exposed to potential or actual pedophiles. Also, homosexuality would violate the "morally straight" provision on the scout oath. It would prevent a Scout from being reverent, because certain religions, such as Orthodox Christianity, do not accept homosexuality as a normal way of life. Accepting gays as Scouts implies accepting the gay way as normal, at least for Scouting.

Do you mean, because those "certain religions" happen to be right?
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline Peter J

  • Formerly PJ
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,316
  • Faith: Melkite Catholic
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #391 on: February 08, 2013, 12:24:36 PM »
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.

This is not a subject that should be debated.

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.

Not just sinful, but abominable!!!

Do you want somebody who has such a distraught and messed up family, who loves their own sex, will not engage in normal relations as God created us, to be the role model for your son or sons?

Us Christians DO NOT JUDGE homosexual behavior, GOD already did.  When we call homosexual behavior an abomination, we are only repeating what God called it.

No Christian should want their sons role models / mentors / troop leaders to be homosexuals.  End of story.

It is a sin.

But I guess the question to you should be: Do you believe that people who commit that sin should be put to death?
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,275
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #392 on: February 08, 2013, 05:48:03 PM »

Rainbowiness, intentional . . .


Coming out?

Your avatar might lead one to think so.  ;)

Out as what? What is that third thing?

That image cracked me up. I saw this whole tri-sexual symbol and it looked some graphic expression of modalism.

Hence it and the words beneath.

The rainbowage was pure plus on the image search.
Your avatar made a cameo on that schema-monk hoodie that's been going around :

As it has been said before: I am the height of teen-age fashion.
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline Kerdy

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,813
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #393 on: February 08, 2013, 07:51:13 PM »
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.

This is not a subject that should be debated.

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.

Not just sinful, but abominable!!!

Do you want somebody who has such a distraught and messed up family, who loves their own sex, will not engage in normal relations as God created us, to be the role model for your son or sons?

Us Christians DO NOT JUDGE homosexual behavior, GOD already did.  When we call homosexual behavior an abomination, we are only repeating what God called it.

No Christian should want their sons role models / mentors / troop leaders to be homosexuals.  End of story.

It is a sin.

But I guess the question to you should be: Do you believe that people who commit that sin should be put to death?
No, this isn’t the question at all.  Not even remotely close to the question.  The question is, should be allowed openly in the BSA.  Nice diversion tactic, but it was unsuccessful. 

Offline yeshuaisiam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,697
  • A pulling horse cannot kick.
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #394 on: February 08, 2013, 08:02:27 PM »
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.

This is not a subject that should be debated.

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.

Not just sinful, but abominable!!!

Do you want somebody who has such a distraught and messed up family, who loves their own sex, will not engage in normal relations as God created us, to be the role model for your son or sons?

Us Christians DO NOT JUDGE homosexual behavior, GOD already did.  When we call homosexual behavior an abomination, we are only repeating what God called it.

No Christian should want their sons role models / mentors / troop leaders to be homosexuals.  End of story.


Scriptures say nothing about lesbians, do they?

Yes

Romans 1:26-27

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

"vile affections"

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline yeshuaisiam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,697
  • A pulling horse cannot kick.
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #395 on: February 08, 2013, 08:03:37 PM »
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.

This is not a subject that should be debated.

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.

Not just sinful, but abominable!!!

Hey, it is called the abominable snowman but really, what are you going to do when he looks like this?














Rainbowiness, intentional . . .

Hah,

Well it is a man with a pink flower in his hat.... so....
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline yeshuaisiam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,697
  • A pulling horse cannot kick.
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #396 on: February 08, 2013, 08:05:31 PM »
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.

This is not a subject that should be debated.

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.
Do you eat oysters?

No, I keep Kosher.

However,

Romans 1:26
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

In the New Covenant they were called "vile affections" and "against nature".
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,580
  • Barlaam and Josaphat
    • The Mystical Theology
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #397 on: February 08, 2013, 08:07:07 PM »
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.

This is not a subject that should be debated.

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.

Not just sinful, but abominable!!!

Do you want somebody who has such a distraught and messed up family, who loves their own sex, will not engage in normal relations as God created us, to be the role model for your son or sons?

Us Christians DO NOT JUDGE homosexual behavior, GOD already did.  When we call homosexual behavior an abomination, we are only repeating what God called it.

No Christian should want their sons role models / mentors / troop leaders to be homosexuals.  End of story.


Scriptures say nothing about lesbians, do they?

Yes

Romans 1:26-27

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

"vile affections"
I wonder. Did Paul have any notion of people who are 'born' with same-sex attractions? He seems to be criticizing here, people -- heterosexual -- whose extreme lust has taken them into 'vile affections', not people whose normal state of attraction is directed towards those of the same sex.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 08:07:28 PM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline yeshuaisiam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,697
  • A pulling horse cannot kick.
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #398 on: February 08, 2013, 08:08:16 PM »
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.

This is not a subject that should be debated.

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.

Not just sinful, but abominable!!!

Do you want somebody who has such a distraught and messed up family, who loves their own sex, will not engage in normal relations as God created us, to be the role model for your son or sons?

Us Christians DO NOT JUDGE homosexual behavior, GOD already did.  When we call homosexual behavior an abomination, we are only repeating what God called it.

No Christian should want their sons role models / mentors / troop leaders to be homosexuals.  End of story.

It is a sin.

But I guess the question to you should be: Do you believe that people who commit that sin should be put to death?

No.

I believe that the New Covenant Christ taught us (by example the adulterous woman) that we should not cast stones at her.  He said 'go now and sin no more' to her.

Now, if a gay person were to repent of their sin and not practice it, okay the doors are open as we all struggle.   But they won't.  They want to be accepted and for us to accept their sin & them living in their sin.
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline yeshuaisiam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,697
  • A pulling horse cannot kick.
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #399 on: February 08, 2013, 08:11:03 PM »
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.

This is not a subject that should be debated.

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.

Not just sinful, but abominable!!!

Do you want somebody who has such a distraught and messed up family, who loves their own sex, will not engage in normal relations as God created us, to be the role model for your son or sons?

Us Christians DO NOT JUDGE homosexual behavior, GOD already did.  When we call homosexual behavior an abomination, we are only repeating what God called it.

No Christian should want their sons role models / mentors / troop leaders to be homosexuals.  End of story.


Scriptures say nothing about lesbians, do they?

Yes

Romans 1:26-27

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

"vile affections"
I wonder. Did Paul have any notion of people who are 'born' with same-sex attractions? He seems to be criticizing here, people -- heterosexual -- whose extreme lust has taken them into 'vile affections', not people whose normal state of attraction is directed towards those of the same sex.

We were all born with weaknesses to certain sins.  One of mine is anger.

Also your question has been debated before (or the subject matter) by many Christian groups.   Many say that "born gay" is propaganda of our modern evil culture.  Many gay men were sexually abused.   Anyway, it's a sin period.  I can't buy into Lady Gaga's "born this way" mouthpiece song for acceptance.
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline yeshuaisiam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,697
  • A pulling horse cannot kick.
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #400 on: February 08, 2013, 08:18:41 PM »
I would withdraw from Boy Scouts if gays were allowed, because I would not want to be exposed to potential or actual pedophiles.
Oy! That canard again. ::) What connection has ever been shown between homosexuality and pedophilia? Or have you so soon forgotten that the Boy Scouts have had a major problem with pedophilia even in spite of their ban on gays?

Also, homosexuality would violate the "morally straight" provision on the scout oath. It would prevent a Scout from being reverent, because certain religions, such as Orthodox Christianity, do not accept homosexuality as a normal way of life. Accepting gays as Scouts implies accepting the gay way as normal, at least for Scouting.
I can agree with this, though.

I do see an equally evil division between pedophiles who are gay pedophiles and heterosexual pedophiles.
Both equally sick and disturbing.

However, post-pubescent pedophilia draws some differences.

If Joseph was in his mid 20's and Mary was 14-15, these ages were accepted at this time and would have got Joseph 20 years today.

If Jimmy was in his mid 20's and Marty was 14-15 (in the time of Christ), he would have got stoned then and 20 years today.

The result of this is that gay pedophilia by our definition today (a man at 26 and teen at 15) is equally illegal.  But prior to the 2nd covenant he would have been stoned or put to death.
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline JamesRottnek

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,123
  • I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #401 on: February 08, 2013, 08:20:45 PM »
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.

This is not a subject that should be debated.

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.

Not just sinful, but abominable!!!

Do you want somebody who has such a distraught and messed up family, who loves their own sex, will not engage in normal relations as God created us, to be the role model for your son or sons?

Us Christians DO NOT JUDGE homosexual behavior, GOD already did.  When we call homosexual behavior an abomination, we are only repeating what God called it.

No Christian should want their sons role models / mentors / troop leaders to be homosexuals.  End of story.

It is a sin.

But I guess the question to you should be: Do you believe that people who commit that sin should be put to death?

No.

I believe that the New Covenant Christ taught us (by example the adulterous woman) that we should not cast stones at her.  He said 'go now and sin no more' to her.

Now, if a gay person were to repent of their sin and not practice it, okay the doors are open as we all struggle.   But they won't.  They want to be accepted and for us to accept their sin & them living in their sin.

In case you hadn't noticed, the order of events goes:
1.) Crowd brings woman to Jesus, wanting to kill her;
2.) Jesus gets crowd to disperse without harming the woman;
3.) Jesus tells woman to go and sin no more.

It does NOT go:
1.) Crowd brings woman;
2.) Jesus tells woman not to sin, woman says "OK";
3.) Crowd disperses.
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline JamesRottnek

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,123
  • I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #402 on: February 08, 2013, 08:21:46 PM »
I would withdraw from Boy Scouts if gays were allowed, because I would not want to be exposed to potential or actual pedophiles.
Oy! That canard again. ::) What connection has ever been shown between homosexuality and pedophilia? Or have you so soon forgotten that the Boy Scouts have had a major problem with pedophilia even in spite of their ban on gays?

Also, homosexuality would violate the "morally straight" provision on the scout oath. It would prevent a Scout from being reverent, because certain religions, such as Orthodox Christianity, do not accept homosexuality as a normal way of life. Accepting gays as Scouts implies accepting the gay way as normal, at least for Scouting.
I can agree with this, though.

I do see an equally evil division between pedophiles who are gay pedophiles and heterosexual pedophiles.
Both equally sick and disturbing.

However, post-pubescent pedophilia draws some differences.

If Joseph was in his mid 20's and Mary was 14-15, these ages were accepted at this time and would have got Joseph 20 years today.

If Jimmy was in his mid 20's and Marty was 14-15 (in the time of Christ), he would have got stoned then and 20 years today.

The result of this is that gay pedophilia by our definition today (a man at 26 and teen at 15) is equally illegal.  But prior to the 2nd covenant he would have been stoned or put to death.

I don't know who is included when you say "our definition," but this is not the psychological or psychiatric definition of pedophilia.
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline yeshuaisiam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,697
  • A pulling horse cannot kick.
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #403 on: February 08, 2013, 08:24:33 PM »
This concern would be more for my son than for me, but man-on-man sexual abuse can happen at any age.

Agreed.  

I can't imagine a fully heterosexual man being able to be gratified by young boys.

This is just such common logic:   Ask yourselves - who is more likely to sexually abuse your son?

A) A married family man with 3 children who has been married for 12 years and one of his children are in your son's troop.

-or-

B) A gay man that lives with his partner with no children.  He just wants to be a scout leader because he likes children.


I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline yeshuaisiam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,697
  • A pulling horse cannot kick.
Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
« Reply #404 on: February 08, 2013, 08:25:49 PM »
I would withdraw from Boy Scouts if gays were allowed, because I would not want to be exposed to potential or actual pedophiles.
Oy! That canard again. ::) What connection has ever been shown between homosexuality and pedophilia? Or have you so soon forgotten that the Boy Scouts have had a major problem with pedophilia even in spite of their ban on gays?

Also, homosexuality would violate the "morally straight" provision on the scout oath. It would prevent a Scout from being reverent, because certain religions, such as Orthodox Christianity, do not accept homosexuality as a normal way of life. Accepting gays as Scouts implies accepting the gay way as normal, at least for Scouting.
I can agree with this, though.

I do see an equally evil division between pedophiles who are gay pedophiles and heterosexual pedophiles.
Both equally sick and disturbing.

However, post-pubescent pedophilia draws some differences.

If Joseph was in his mid 20's and Mary was 14-15, these ages were accepted at this time and would have got Joseph 20 years today.

If Jimmy was in his mid 20's and Marty was 14-15 (in the time of Christ), he would have got stoned then and 20 years today.

The result of this is that gay pedophilia by our definition today (a man at 26 and teen at 15) is equally illegal.  But prior to the 2nd covenant he would have been stoned or put to death.

I don't know who is included when you say "our definition," but this is not the psychological or psychiatric definition of pedophilia.

Let me clarify.

"Our definition" would be laws in America and legality in America.

There are many states here that prosecute young teen sexual abuse as pedophilia.
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com