Topic: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members

[PeterTheAleut]

Southern Baptists could stop sponsoring BSA units, and instead adopt the "Royal Ambassadors":

"Royal Ambassadors espouses many of the same virtues and character-building activities that are found in Boy Scouts but with the added benefit for Southern Baptists that our primary goal is developing boys into men who understand the mission of God and carry the Gospel with them into the world," commented Richard Bodenhamer, a marketing specialist at Woman's Missionary Union, an auxiliary to the Southern Baptist Convention based in Birmingham, Ala.

Whatever is best for the kids, and the Boy Scouts seem not to be that at all.

How do you mean?

[Kerdy]

Southern Baptists could stop sponsoring BSA units, and instead adopt the "Royal Ambassadors":

"Royal Ambassadors espouses many of the same virtues and character-building activities that are found in Boy Scouts but with the added benefit for Southern Baptists that our primary goal is developing boys into men who understand the mission of God and carry the Gospel with them into the world," commented Richard Bodenhamer, a marketing specialist at Woman's Missionary Union, an auxiliary to the Southern Baptist Convention based in Birmingham, Ala.

Whatever is best for the kids, and the Boy Scouts seem not to be that at all.

How do you mean?

Kids traditionally join the Scouts to have fun, not to have a political agenda forced on them. 

They would join the scouts to learn how to be “men”, but a lot of that has changed over the years.  Organizations can no longer teach what they believe in, unless of course that organization is in line with the PC police, at which time they can do whatever they want.  But, if you rub against the modern grain, you best be prepared for all sorts of problems and court action and a truck load of other manure headed your way. 

It’s just sad to see good organizations falling apart as a result of PC rubbish.  The only solution left, since no one has the spine to fight back anymore, is to create new organizations and let the PC tools have what they think is a victory.  Bottom line is, kids join groups to have fun and enjoy being around other kids looking for the same stuff, with the same interests, with whom they can relate.  I will stop here, because I can go on and on about all sorts of things, but PC hypocrisy gets me irritated and I do not want it to spill over into my posts.

Let the attacks begin…

[JamesRottnek]

Southern Baptists could stop sponsoring BSA units, and instead adopt the "Royal Ambassadors":

"Royal Ambassadors espouses many of the same virtues and character-building activities that are found in Boy Scouts but with the added benefit for Southern Baptists that our primary goal is developing boys into men who understand the mission of God and carry the Gospel with them into the world," commented Richard Bodenhamer, a marketing specialist at Woman's Missionary Union, an auxiliary to the Southern Baptist Convention based in Birmingham, Ala.

Whatever is best for the kids, and the Boy Scouts seem not to be that at all.

How do you mean?

Kids traditionally join the Scouts to have fun, not to have a political agenda forced on them. 

They would join the scouts to learn how to be “men”, but a lot of that has changed over the years.  Organizations can no longer teach what they believe in, unless of course that organization is in line with the PC police, at which time they can do whatever they want.  But, if you rub against the modern grain, you best be prepared for all sorts of problems and court action and a truck load of other manure headed your way. 

It’s just sad to see good organizations falling apart as a result of PC rubbish.  The only solution left, since no one has the spine to fight back anymore, is to create new organizations and let the PC tools have what they think is a victory.  Bottom line is, kids join groups to have fun and enjoy being around other kids looking for the same stuff, with the same interests, with whom they can relate.  I will stop here, because I can go on and on about all sorts of things, but PC hypocrisy gets me irritated and I do not want it to spill over into my posts.

Let the attacks begin…

So now the very presence of openly gay people in the Scouts amounts to "forcing a political agenda" upon the Scouts?  Really?  Church is also not a place for forced political agendas, I suppose you want to kick gays out of Church too.  School's also not a place for forced political agendas, I suppose you want to kick gays out of schools too.

Why don't you just admit it: you hate gay people and would be perfectly pleased if they all died.

[biro]

Kids traditionally join the Scouts to have fun, not to have a political agenda forced on them. 

Like yours?

[biro]

Why don't you just admit it: you hate gay people and would be perfectly pleased if they all died.

Shhh, he thinks he's saving somebody. From something.

[Peter J]

Southern Baptists could stop sponsoring BSA units, and instead adopt the "Royal Ambassadors":

"Royal Ambassadors espouses many of the same virtues and character-building activities that are found in Boy Scouts but with the added benefit for Southern Baptists that our primary goal is developing boys into men who understand the mission of God and carry the Gospel with them into the world," commented Richard Bodenhamer, a marketing specialist at Woman's Missionary Union, an auxiliary to the Southern Baptist Convention based in Birmingham, Ala.

Whatever is best for the kids, and the Boy Scouts seem not to be that at all.

How do you mean?

Kids traditionally join the Scouts to have fun, not to have a political agenda forced on them.  

They would join the scouts to learn how to be “men”, but a lot of that has changed over the years.  Organizations can no longer teach what they believe in, unless of course that organization is in line with the PC police, at which time they can do whatever they want.  But, if you rub against the modern grain, you best be prepared for all sorts of problems and court action and a truck load of other manure headed your way.  

It’s just sad to see good organizations falling apart as a result of PC rubbish.  The only solution left, since no one has the spine to fight back anymore, is to create new organizations and let the PC tools have what they think is a victory.  Bottom line is, kids join groups to have fun and enjoy being around other kids looking for the same stuff, with the same interests, with whom they can relate.  I will stop here, because I can go on and on about all sorts of things, but PC hypocrisy gets me irritated and I do not want it to spill over into my posts.

Let the attacks begin…

begin?

[Deep Roots]

Kids traditionally join the Scouts to have fun, not to have a political agenda forced on them. 

Like yours?

wait-- what's the political agenda?  I mean, seriously, from a child's perspective there is no agenda, here, is there?

If your kid goes to a Scout meeting, do the kids and counselors all wear gay signs if they're gay?  no.  a kid shows up -- there are other kids to have fun with, and there are adult counselors.

That's all they'll see.

No agenda is being forced on a kid, unless having fun is on the agenda, which, it being a scout meeting, it should be.

[biro]

Kids traditionally join the Scouts to have fun, not to have a political agenda forced on them. 

Like yours?

wait-- what's the political agenda?  I mean, seriously, from a child's perspective there is no agenda, here, is there?

If your kid goes to a Scout meeting, do the kids and counselors all wear gay signs if they're gay?  no.  a kid shows up -- there are other kids to have fun with, and there are adult counselors.

That's all they'll see.

No agenda is being forced on a kid, unless having fun is on the agenda, which, it being a scout meeting, it should be.

Exactly. 

[PeterTheAleut]

Southern Baptists could stop sponsoring BSA units, and instead adopt the "Royal Ambassadors":

"Royal Ambassadors espouses many of the same virtues and character-building activities that are found in Boy Scouts but with the added benefit for Southern Baptists that our primary goal is developing boys into men who understand the mission of God and carry the Gospel with them into the world," commented Richard Bodenhamer, a marketing specialist at Woman's Missionary Union, an auxiliary to the Southern Baptist Convention based in Birmingham, Ala.

Whatever is best for the kids, and the Boy Scouts seem not to be that at all.

How do you mean?

Kids traditionally join the Scouts to have fun, not to have a political agenda forced on them. 

They would join the scouts to learn how to be “men”, but a lot of that has changed over the years.  Organizations can no longer teach what they believe in, unless of course that organization is in line with the PC police, at which time they can do whatever they want.  But, if you rub against the modern grain, you best be prepared for all sorts of problems and court action and a truck load of other manure headed your way. 

It’s just sad to see good organizations falling apart as a result of PC rubbish.  The only solution left, since no one has the spine to fight back anymore, is to create new organizations and let the PC tools have what they think is a victory.  Bottom line is, kids join groups to have fun and enjoy being around other kids looking for the same stuff, with the same interests, with whom they can relate.  I will stop here, because I can go on and on about all sorts of things, but PC hypocrisy gets me irritated and I do not want it to spill over into my posts.

Let the attacks begin…

I actually agree with you regarding what you have said in your assessment of the current situation with the Boy Scouts. I have fond memories of having been a Boy Scout back in the 1980's, before all this PC nonsense got pushed on the BSA. I, too, am irritated by all these PC "advocates" who think it their job to push their social agenda upon the Boy Scouts, and I am also troubled by what appears to be the first stages of the BSA's capitulation to their demands. The Boy Scouts of America is a private organization with the authority to set their own standards of membership based on their vision of what they want to be. If they don't want to admit openly gay boys and men into their organization, then they have every right to discriminate in this way. I also agree with the mission of the Boy Scouts as it is encoded into the Boy Scout Law and Boy Scout Oath, which includes statements that a Scout will strive to be morally straight and that a scout is reverent. The Boy Scouts see these mandates as not making any place for openly practicing homosexuals in their organization, and I agree with them. I, for one, would not recognize the Boy Scouts as the scouting organization I once knew if they were to kowtow to the gay lobby and lift their ban on openly gay boys and men. I hope and pray that they will continue their fight.

[PeterTheAleut]

Kids traditionally join the Scouts to have fun, not to have a political agenda forced on them. 

Like yours?

wait-- what's the political agenda?  I mean, seriously, from a child's perspective there is no agenda, here, is there?

If your kid goes to a Scout meeting, do the kids and counselors all wear gay signs if they're gay?  no.  a kid shows up -- there are other kids to have fun with, and there are adult counselors.

That's all they'll see.

No agenda is being forced on a kid, unless having fun is on the agenda, which, it being a scout meeting, it should be.

Exactly. 

There's more to the Boy Scouts than just having fun. The Boy Scouts also see themselves as an organization for helping mold boys into men who are upstanding citizens of our society. I, for one, learned a lot about what it means to be a man through my participation in the Boy Scouts.

[Deep Roots]

The Boy Scouts of America is a private organization with the authority to set their own standards of membership based on their vision of what they want to be. If they don't want to admit openly gay boys and men into their organization, then they have every right to discriminate in this way.

You are aware that large degree of this agitation for progress on this issue is coming from within the organization, right?  Not sure if you know, but that's how it works with private organizations.

It doesn't count as a violation of the organization's rights as a private entity is the change is being called for by private citizens...and in this case, by leaders and members of the Scouts.  That's how it works, just so you know.

[Deep Roots]

There's more to the Boy Scouts than just having fun. The Boy Scouts also see themselves as an organization for helping mold boys into men who are upstanding citizens of our society. I, for one, learned a lot about what it means to be a man through my participation in the Boy Scouts.

Thanks for the lesson.  Scanned it twice looking for the relevant part, though.

A gay child cannot learn the same lessons?

Of course not, I'd imagine...in your mind.

[Deep Roots]

They can't learn to cut firewood because their arms are too limp and they'll get their fingernails dirty?

[PeterTheAleut]

They can't learn to cut firewood because their arms are too limp and they'll get their fingernails dirty?

If you think how to cut firewood is the only lesson one can learn in the Boy Scouts, then you have a lot to learn. Have you ever been in the Boy Scouts or had a son in the Boy Scouts?

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

I agree with Peter. It is one thing for gays to advocate for equal treatment under the law, it is another thing all together for them to (a) demand that no one criticize their immoral and sinful life style, (b) demand that society throw away the meaning of marriage between a man and a woman in the name of equality, and (c) demand that private individuals and organizations accept their demand that homosexual lifestyle is normal.  Those who believe that the homosexual lifestyle is wrong have agreed to the decriminalization of homosexual conduct. Now, they are faced with a demand that they approve of homosexual conduct. That's cheeky, don't you think?

[Deep Roots]

They can't learn to cut firewood because their arms are too limp and they'll get their fingernails dirty?

If you think how to cut firewood is the only lesson one can learn in the Boy Scouts, then you have a lot to learn. Have you ever been in the Boy Scouts or had a son in the Boy Scouts?

Why are you missing the forest for the (ahem!) trees?  You're missing the point.

I was in the Scouts for a total of one night as a child, when my father took me to a meeting, looked around and walked out.  Let's just say my Dad wasn't a scout type of dude.  

I really don't care what the Scouts do -- it's a great organization I'm sure, but that wasn't my point: I was taking a shot at stereotypes of gay folks often made by masculinity-obsessed folks.

[Deep Roots]

I agree with Peter. It is one thing for gays to advocate for equal treatment under the law, it is another thing all together for them to (a) demand that no one criticize their immoral and sinful life style, (b) demand that society throw away the meaning of marriage between a man and a woman in the name of equality, and (c) demand that private individuals and organizations accept their demand that homosexual lifestyle is normal.  Those who believe that the homosexual lifestyle is wrong have agreed to the decriminalization of homosexual conduct. Now, they are faced with a demand that they approve of homosexual conduct. That's cheeky, don't you think?

Sneaky gays.  Sneaky sneaky gays.  Always trying to feel you up when you don't wanna be felt up.

[PeterTheAleut]

There's more to the Boy Scouts than just having fun. The Boy Scouts also see themselves as an organization for helping mold boys into men who are upstanding citizens of our society. I, for one, learned a lot about what it means to be a man through my participation in the Boy Scouts.

Thanks for the lesson.  Scanned it twice looking for the relevant part, though.

A gay child cannot learn the same lessons?

Of course not, I'd imagine...in your mind.

And what is in my mind, O Omniscient Seer?

[PeterTheAleut]

They can't learn to cut firewood because their arms are too limp and they'll get their fingernails dirty?

If you think how to cut firewood is the only lesson one can learn in the Boy Scouts, then you have a lot to learn. Have you ever been in the Boy Scouts or had a son in the Boy Scouts?

Why are you missing the forest for the (ahem!) trees?  You're missing the point.

I was in the Scouts for a total of one night as a child, when my father took me to a meeting, looked around and walked out.  Let's just say my Dad wasn't a scout type of dude.  

I really don't care what the Scouts do -- it's a great organization I'm sure, but that wasn't my point: I was taking a shot at stereotypes of gay folks often made by masculinity-obsessed folks.

And what does your attack on stereotypes have to do with anything I just said?

[PeterTheAleut]

I agree with Peter. It is one thing for gays to advocate for equal treatment under the law, it is another thing all together for them to (a) demand that no one criticize their immoral and sinful life style, (b) demand that society throw away the meaning of marriage between a man and a woman in the name of equality, and (c) demand that private individuals and organizations accept their demand that homosexual lifestyle is normal.  Those who believe that the homosexual lifestyle is wrong have agreed to the decriminalization of homosexual conduct. Now, they are faced with a demand that they approve of homosexual conduct. That's cheeky, don't you think?

Sneaky gays.  Sneaky sneaky gays.  Always trying to feel you up when you don't wanna be felt up.

I'm sure you're capable of rational thought, though you haven't shown any on this thread. Why don't you actually try just counting to ten and thinking through what you're going to post before you type the post and click Submit? You might actually appear more intelligent.

[Deep Roots]

"There's more to the Boy Scouts than just having fun. The Boy Scouts also see themselves as an organization for helping mold boys into men who are upstanding citizens of our society."

I could be wrong, but given the context of your response above, it seems that you're insinuating that allowing gays in the BSA would somehow conflict with "helping to mold boys into men."

Am I reading you wrong there?  If so, please help me to understand better.

[Deep Roots]

I agree with Peter. It is one thing for gays to advocate for equal treatment under the law, it is another thing all together for them to (a) demand that no one criticize their immoral and sinful life style, (b) demand that society throw away the meaning of marriage between a man and a woman in the name of equality, and (c) demand that private individuals and organizations accept their demand that homosexual lifestyle is normal.  Those who believe that the homosexual lifestyle is wrong have agreed to the decriminalization of homosexual conduct. Now, they are faced with a demand that they approve of homosexual conduct. That's cheeky, don't you think?

Sneaky gays.  Sneaky sneaky gays.  Always trying to feel you up when you don't wanna be felt up.

I'm sure you're capable of rational thought, though you haven't shown any on this thread. Why don't you actually try just counting to ten and thinking through what you're going to post before you type the post and click Submit? You might actually appear more intelligent.

Well, they are sneaky aren't they?

[dzheremi]

I miss the days when it was confused teenagers coming out as "gay" (as was the case with several people I went to high school with who are now happily, heterosexually married), and not children's civic organizations being seen as legitimate battlegrounds for "gay rights", whether from in-organization members or not. While I'm sure there is more to the BSA and GSA than just cutting firewood or selling delicious mint chocolate cookies, I would be much less likely to support either if the lessons they now teach include indulgence in sexual role modeling behavior or "self-exploration" or "acceptance" or whatever the buzzword for bringing homosexuality and sexual identity politics into every last nook and cranny of society. Nevermind gays or straights, can't children just be children anymore? If they're gay, they can figure that out later, at an appropriate time and place. If the modern leadership of the BSA/GSA thinks that a tent in the woods is such a time and place, then I certainly don't see how anyone can support them, no matter if the kids come out straight or gay or whatever.

[PeterTheAleut]

"There's more to the Boy Scouts than just having fun. The Boy Scouts also see themselves as an organization for helping mold boys into men who are upstanding citizens of our society."

I could be wrong, but given the context of your response above, it seems that you're insinuating that allowing gays in the BSA would somehow conflict with "helping to mold boys into men."

Am I reading you wrong there?  If so, please help me to understand better.

Yes, you are reading me wrong. My comment was directed at those who, as I (mis?)understood them, said that the only agenda the Boy Scouts have is that their boys have fun.

[Deep Roots]

"There's more to the Boy Scouts than just having fun. The Boy Scouts also see themselves as an organization for helping mold boys into men who are upstanding citizens of our society."

I could be wrong, but given the context of your response above, it seems that you're insinuating that allowing gays in the BSA would somehow conflict with "helping to mold boys into men."

Am I reading you wrong there?  If so, please help me to understand better.

Yes, you are reading me wrong. My comment was directed at those who, as I (mis?)understood them, said that the only agenda the Boy Scouts have is that their boys have fun.

Yes, I was among them; however, the implication was not that that's all they do.

So, then, I am wrong in my assumption that you believe allowing "out" gays into the BSA will diminish or contradict their "helping boys to become men"?  I apologize then, if I misread that.

[JamesRottnek]

I miss the days when it was confused teenagers coming out as "gay" (as was the case with several people I went to high school with who are now happily, heterosexually married), and not children's civic organizations being seen as legitimate battlegrounds for "gay rights", whether from in-organization members or not. While I'm sure there is more to the BSA and GSA than just cutting firewood or selling delicious mint chocolate cookies, I would be much less likely to support either if the lessons they now teach include indulgence in sexual role modeling behavior or "self-exploration" or "acceptance" or whatever the buzzword for bringing homosexuality and sexual identity politics into every last nook and cranny of society. Nevermind gays or straights, can't children just be children anymore? If they're gay, they can figure that out later, at an appropriate time and place. If the modern leadership of the BSA/GSA thinks that a tent in the woods is such a time and place, then I certainly don't see how anyone can support them, no matter if the kids come out straight or gay or whatever.

The Boy Scouts actually include a substantial number of teens.

[PeterTheAleut]

I miss the days when it was confused teenagers coming out as "gay" (as was the case with several people I went to high school with who are now happily, heterosexually married), and not children's civic organizations being seen as legitimate battlegrounds for "gay rights", whether from in-organization members or not. While I'm sure there is more to the BSA and GSA than just cutting firewood or selling delicious mint chocolate cookies, I would be much less likely to support either if the lessons they now teach include indulgence in sexual role modeling behavior or "self-exploration" or "acceptance" or whatever the buzzword for bringing homosexuality and sexual identity politics into every last nook and cranny of society. Nevermind gays or straights, can't children just be children anymore? If they're gay, they can figure that out later, at an appropriate time and place. If the modern leadership of the BSA/GSA thinks that a tent in the woods is such a time and place, then I certainly don't see how anyone can support them, no matter if the kids come out straight or gay or whatever.

The Boy Scouts actually include a substantial number of teens.

So teenagers are not children?

[dzheremi]

I miss the days when it was confused teenagers coming out as "gay" (as was the case with several people I went to high school with who are now happily, heterosexually married), and not children's civic organizations being seen as legitimate battlegrounds for "gay rights", whether from in-organization members or not. While I'm sure there is more to the BSA and GSA than just cutting firewood or selling delicious mint chocolate cookies, I would be much less likely to support either if the lessons they now teach include indulgence in sexual role modeling behavior or "self-exploration" or "acceptance" or whatever the buzzword for bringing homosexuality and sexual identity politics into every last nook and cranny of society. Nevermind gays or straights, can't children just be children anymore? If they're gay, they can figure that out later, at an appropriate time and place. If the modern leadership of the BSA/GSA thinks that a tent in the woods is such a time and place, then I certainly don't see how anyone can support them, no matter if the kids come out straight or gay or whatever.

The Boy Scouts actually include a substantial number of teens.

Let me rephrase my point: The Boy Scouts is not the appropriate environment for exploring or declaring ones sexuality. It is a children's civic organization.

[Deacon Lance]

The loss of this battle started when the partnering Churches started to change their teachings.  The BSA says follow the teachings of your Church.  What happens when the Church teachings conflict with BSA policy?  Rather than bite the bullet and disassociate with Churches that oppose policy, the BSA maintained an official policy while allowing a don't ask dont tell policy.  In reality, nothing is changing as the Catholic, Orthodox, and LDS Churches will continue to disallow practicing homosexuals while the Episcopal Church, United Churches of Christ, and ELCA can stop pretending they adhere to policy.

[Kerdy]

Kids traditionally join the Scouts to have fun, not to have a political agenda forced on them. 

Like yours?

My what?

[Kerdy]

Why don't you just admit it: you hate gay people and would be perfectly pleased if they all died.

A little dramatic and a tad over the top with this post, even for you.

The good news is this is a gleaming example of that tolerance we always hear about in practice for all to see.

[Asteriktos]

My favorite part of being in the scouts was that race car derby thing. Even though my cars were always crappy.

[JamesRottnek]

Why don't you just admit it: you hate gay people and would be perfectly pleased if they all died.

A little dramatic and a tad over the top with this post, even for you.

The good news is this is a gleaming example of that tolerance we always hear about in practice for all to see.

If you read my other posts on this forum, you'll know I'm not a fan of tolerance.

Also, my request that you simply be honest - with yourself and others - about your feelings should in no way be taken as any indication of my feelings toward you.

[orthonorm]

I miss the days when it was confused teenagers coming out as "gay" (as was the case with several people I went to high school with who are now happily, heterosexually married), and not children's civic organizations being seen as legitimate battlegrounds for "gay rights", whether from in-organization members or not.

^----------This is nostalgia folks.

Sadly, nevertheless.

[orthonorm]

I miss the days when it was confused teenagers coming out as "gay" (as was the case with several people I went to high school with who are now happily, heterosexually married), and not children's civic organizations being seen as legitimate battlegrounds for "gay rights", whether from in-organization members or not. While I'm sure there is more to the BSA and GSA than just cutting firewood or selling delicious mint chocolate cookies, I would be much less likely to support either if the lessons they now teach include indulgence in sexual role modeling behavior or "self-exploration" or "acceptance" or whatever the buzzword for bringing homosexuality and sexual identity politics into every last nook and cranny of society. Nevermind gays or straights, can't children just be children anymore? If they're gay, they can figure that out later, at an appropriate time and place. If the modern leadership of the BSA/GSA thinks that a tent in the woods is such a time and place, then I certainly don't see how anyone can support them, no matter if the kids come out straight or gay or whatever.

The Boy Scouts actually include a substantial number of teens.

Let me rephrase my point: The Boy Scouts is not the appropriate environment for exploring or declaring ones sexuality. It is a children's civic organization.

Actually it is a pretty "gay" thing to do. Every kid I knew who was in the "scouts" got picked on mercilessly. Not as bad as being in band, but close.

And the "scouts" is all about sexuality. Again, this is nothing but Puritanism.

Kids are sexual. How they engage the world is sexual. Any place is a place for "declaring" one's sexuality. Just when the language surrounds "cute" "normal" sexualized talk it is OK. It is when it departs from the typical nonsense does it offend those with rarified sexual hang-ups.

If Johnny-wonny has a cutesy-wutesy girlfriend: Awwww . . . .

A boyfriend? 

[Shiny]

(a) demand that no one criticize their immoral and sinful life style,

Which is completely based on presuppositions, which not all of us hold equal.

(b) demand that society throw away the meaning of marriage between a man and a woman in the name of equality,

Nobody is going to throw away the "meaning" (if such even exists anymore) of marriage between a man and a women. That is completely reactionary.

You have your "meaning" in the Church. Others can have theirs in a civil union.

Conservatives like yourself all want freedom to do as they want, but when it is contrary to their ideology, well its **** you, you aren't getting it.

(c) demand that private individuals and organizations accept their demand that homosexual lifestyle is normal.

What exactly is a lifestyle and why do you define it as such for the homosexual? That is their being.

And it has everything to do with accepting them for what they are, not treating them as if they are subhuman.

Those who believe that the homosexual lifestyle is wrong have agreed to the decriminalization of homosexual conduct. Now, they are faced with a demand that they approve of homosexual conduct. That's cheeky, don't you think?

Because criminalizing homosexual "conduct" is the proper way to cure them of their homosexuality.

You know we could just allow it and mind our own business, love them as our neighbors and share the Gospel of Christ.

Sure you want to keep guns legal, which as far as I know, create more crimes than two dudes loving each other.

[augustin717]

The loss of this battle started when the partnering Churches started to change their teachings.  The BSA says follow the teachings of your Church.  What happens when the Church teachings conflict with BSA policy?  Rather than bite the bullet and disassociate with Churches that oppose policy, the BSA maintained an official policy while allowing a don't ask dont tell policy.  In reality, nothing is changing as the Catholic, Orthodox, and LDS Churches will continue to disallow practicing homosexuals while the Episcopal Church, United Churches of Christ, and ELCA can stop pretending they adhere to policy.

I think it all started with the Filioque. It all went downhill from there.

[dzheremi]

Actually it is a pretty "gay" thing to do. Every kid I knew who was in the "scouts" got picked on mercilessly. Not as bad as being in band, but close.

Yes, yes...words are fun, and you are very clever boy.

And the "scouts" is all about sexuality. Again, this is nothing but Puritanism.

Where is the sexual component of the Boy Scout Creed, reproduced below:

To be trustworthy in all things.  Loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous and kind.  To learn obedience and practise cheerfulness and Thrift.  To be brave, clean and reverent.  Above all to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.  To “Be Prepared” at all times to do my duty to God and my country, and to do a Good Turn to someone every Day.

Kids are sexual. How they engage the world is sexual.

I never said they weren't.

Any place is a place for "declaring" one's sexuality.

What I'm hearing is that Thanksgiving dinner was a wild event in the Orthonorm household. Good for you. For us "puritanical" folks, it is perhaps not an outrageous suggestion that sexual identity issues be addressed at appropriate times and appropriate places, and that a children's civic organization is not an appropriate place to do that.

Just when the language surrounds "cute" "normal" sexualized talk it is OK. It is when it departs from the typical nonsense does it offend those with rarified sexual hang-ups.

If Johnny-wonny has a cutesy-wutesy girlfriend: Awwww . . . .

A boyfriend? 

"typical nonsense" like what exactly?  So now there's a problem with heterosexuality being recognized as normative in a society in which it is normative, in addition to the idea that sexuality should not take center stage in the operation or teaching of a children's civic organization.

[orthonorm]

Jeremy your posts are naive.

If you think sexuality is something one states in creeds and mottos, then well, there is no point going on here.

The BOY Scouts.

BOY.
BOY.

That is just the beginning of the sexualization of that group. Why segregate the girls and boys in the first? That is done explicitly out of sexual reasons. That is not a criticism. Everything is sexualized. It HAS to be. We are SEXUAL from birth and before. Not just in terms of some arrangement of chromosomes, but how we interact with the world.

To further explore the weird and odd fetishism of "scouting" would be a WASTE of time here.

Note, you didn't respond to my "cute" point.

Your ridiculous Thanksgiving comment.

If Bobby talks about his crush on a girl. It is cute. What if Bobby has a crush on a boy?

Coming out is not an act homosexuals do because they are gay. Do heterosexuals come out? No. They have a pretty standard and socialized narrative about how to engage in the larger body politic of family and society about their sexual lives.

Gay folks DON'T have that. Thus once they come of age so to speak, if they want to live a some what sane life, it seems they might want to be able to express what straight people can and do from moment one of conception. Yes. Conception. That child is already sexualized. People project the dreams and fantasies of that person's sex life forward. Proms, Weddings, Grandchildren, etc.

Sexual "identity" is always being addressed by straight folks. Always. Nearly every moment.

Straight people are constantly showing their sexuality. Constantly. We just are so used to it as for it to become transparent.

This is thinking 101. Come on. Aren't past these obviouslys yet?

To the odd sexualization of scouting, well if it ain't clear if not precise, I dunno what to say.

But can we please stop acting like homosexual are imposing upon us. If they are it is a necessary structure as long as being homosexual is regarded as being alien, foreign, bad, non-normative.

Being gay is "normative". (Thanks for you using part of my name.)

People are gay. It is normal. It's been going on for a long time.

Whether you think it is a sinful or whatever is something else.

For every gay or non-awesomely-straight person like myself, I am sorry for the tone of the board lately regarding your person. It is nothing other than revolting.

[Kerdy]

It's amazing...I saw this in Protestantism, but I never thought I would see it in Orthodoxy.  A complete rejection of 2000 years of Christian teaching, ignoring everything God has taught us because we want it to be a different way.

[Kerdy]

Why don't you just admit it: you hate gay people and would be perfectly pleased if they all died.

A little dramatic and a tad over the top with this post, even for you.

The good news is this is a gleaming example of that tolerance we always hear about in practice for all to see.

If you read my other posts on this forum, you'll know I'm not a fan of tolerance.

Also, my request that you simply be honest - with yourself and others - about your feelings should in no way be taken as any indication of my feelings toward you.

So says the mind reader.

[LBK]

It's amazing...I saw this in Protestantism, but I never thought I would see it in Orthodoxy.  A complete rejection of 2000 years of Christian teaching, ignoring everything God has taught us because we want it to be a different way.

Yup. You beat me to it, Kerdy. But if a grumpy old fart like me who's only been Orthodox for about 50 years said what you just did, I give you one guess what the reactions of some here would be.

[augustin717]

It's amazing...I saw this in Protestantism, but I never thought I would see it in Orthodoxy.  A complete rejection of 2000 years of Christian teaching, ignoring everything God has taught us because we want it to be a different way.

Gasp... orthodox people dare express personal opinions. hope you don't want orthodox parishes run like kingdom halls, although it does happen here and there.

[Kerdy]

It's amazing...I saw this in Protestantism, but I never thought I would see it in Orthodoxy.  A complete rejection of 2000 years of Christian teaching, ignoring everything God has taught us because we want it to be a different way.

Gasp... orthodox people dare express personal opinions. hope you don't want orthodox parishes run like kingdom halls, although it does happen here and there.

Gasp...Orthodox people DARE express personal un-Orthodox opinions in a brazen manner against the teachings of Christianity.  Yep, that's what I call playing with fire.

[Kerdy]

It's amazing...I saw this in Protestantism, but I never thought I would see it in Orthodoxy.  A complete rejection of 2000 years of Christian teaching, ignoring everything God has taught us because we want it to be a different way.

Yup. You beat me to it, Kerdy. But if a grumpy old fart like me who's only been Orthodox for about 50 years said what you just did, I give you one guess what the reactions of some here would be.

I imagine the same reaction I receive.