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Author Topic: SYRIZA Wants [Greek] State Break With Church  (Read 1700 times) Average Rating: 0
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Antonis
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« on: January 29, 2013, 12:54:43 AM »

http://www.pravmir.com/syriza-wants-state-break-with-church/

Quote
A proposal by a Member of Parliament from the major opposition Coalition of the Radical Left (SYRIZA) party for separation from the government with the Greek Orthodox Church – and a tax on those who declare themselves to be Orthodox Christians – has prompted an angry response from the ruling New Democracy Conservatives.
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« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2013, 12:11:41 PM »

I do not have an issue with this, as a one time Greek resident. The Old Calendarists do pay their own way now and surely there is reason why the Church of Greece should not do so too.

Big problem sadly for Greece is the endemic tendency of generations successfully avoiding taxes, with the richest the worst by far. Now the Gaulieter appointed Government dances to a German tune, again. And again good folk starve, lack medicines and necessities and die.

As for Syriza, it is a product of the dogmatic and intolerant left prospering on a society's agony. I would not trust them even a little but none of the political class inspires any confidence.
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« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2013, 12:56:24 PM »

I do not have an issue with this, as a one time Greek resident. The Old Calendarists do pay their own way now and surely there is reason why the Church of Greece should not do so too.

Big problem sadly for Greece is the endemic tendency of generations successfully avoiding taxes, with the richest the worst by far. Now the Gaulieter appointed Government dances to a German tune, again. And again good folk starve, lack medicines and necessities and die.

As for Syriza, it is a product of the dogmatic and intolerant left prospering on a society's agony. I would not trust them even a little but none of the political class inspires any confidence.

1. Greek Old Calendarists are uncanonical
2. Greece has no business following the atheistic EU into secularism and separation of church and state
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« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2013, 12:59:56 PM »

2. Greece has no business following the atheistic EU into secularism and separation of church and state

Said Zygmunt III Waza.
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« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2013, 01:05:06 PM »

2. Greece has no business following the atheistic EU into secularism and separation of church and state

 Huh
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« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2013, 01:37:13 PM »

http://www.pravmir.com/syriza-wants-state-break-with-church/

Quote
A proposal by a Member of Parliament from the major opposition Coalition of the Radical Left (SYRIZA) party for separation from the government with the Greek Orthodox Church – and a tax on those who declare themselves to be Orthodox Christians – has prompted an angry response from the ruling New Democracy Conservatives.

 Huh
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« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2013, 01:49:29 PM »

I do not have an issue with this, as a one time Greek resident. The Old Calendarists do pay their own way now and surely there is reason why the Church of Greece should not do so too.

Big problem sadly for Greece is the endemic tendency of generations successfully avoiding taxes, with the richest the worst by far. Now the Gaulieter appointed Government dances to a German tune, again. And again good folk starve, lack medicines and necessities and die.

As for Syriza, it is a product of the dogmatic and intolerant left prospering on a society's agony. I would not trust them even a little but none of the political class inspires any confidence.


1. Greek Old Calendarists are uncanonical
2. Greece has no business following the atheistic EU into secularism and separation of church and state

The calendar innovation was introduced uncanonically, against all tradition and brutally suppressed. It might not be germane to the thread, but I didn't bring this up.

What I cited was the simple fact the Old Calendar groups pay tax and the Church of Greece does not. Indeed the burden of supporting an institution not enjoying the fellowship of the total population applies to the total tax paying population, hardly fair? Greece is a sovereign democratic state and it is the business of Greece whether or not the relationship stays the same or changes. There are enough foreigners sticking their oar into Greek affairs as it is. Sadly Greece's population and politicians seemed to have embraced secular Europe's heady embrace, at least in the heady flush of joining the Euro. Now that has gone very awry. But the secularisation of Greece has been a work in progress for most of the last century, in part lead by innovating Greek bishops who to their eternal shame repeatedly used state forces to brutally and cruelly suppress those who sort simply to hold to the pearl received from their forbears. They would apply the canons to brother Orthodox while all the time ignoring the canons in cementing relationships with the heterodox.

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« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2013, 01:52:39 PM »

in part lead by innovating Greek bishops who to their eternal shame repeatedly used state forces to brutally and cruelly suppress those who sort simply to hold to the pearl received from their forbears. They would apply the canons to brother Orthodox while all the time ignoring the canons in cementing relationships with the heterodox.



The Julian Calendar is a 'pearl'?
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« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2013, 01:54:18 PM »

Discuss calendar in the proper thread.
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« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2013, 02:00:29 PM »

2. Greece has no business following the atheistic EU into secularism and separation of church and state

 Huh

The EU is pretty strongly atheist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Europe

Some of the most religious of EU nations are those that are suffering the most economically... Ireland, Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece.

The most atheist nations in the EU are France, the Czech Republic, Belgium, the Netherlands, Estonia, Germany, Sweden, Luxembourg and the UK. (in that order)

The most religious nations in the EU are Malta, Cyprus, Romania, Portugal, Greece, Poland, Italy, Ireland, Slovakia, Spain and Austria. (in that order)
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« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2013, 02:02:05 PM »

I do not have an issue with this, as a one time Greek resident. The Old Calendarists do pay their own way now and surely there is reason why the Church of Greece should not do so too.

Big problem sadly for Greece is the endemic tendency of generations successfully avoiding taxes, with the richest the worst by far. Now the Gaulieter appointed Government dances to a German tune, again. And again good folk starve, lack medicines and necessities and die.

As for Syriza, it is a product of the dogmatic and intolerant left prospering on a society's agony. I would not trust them even a little but none of the political class inspires any confidence.


1. Greek Old Calendarists are uncanonical
2. Greece has no business following the atheistic EU into secularism and separation of church and state

The calendar innovation was introduced uncanonically, against all tradition and brutally suppressed. It might not be germane to the thread, but I didn't bring this up.

What I cited was the simple fact the Old Calendar groups pay tax and the Church of Greece does not. Indeed the burden of supporting an institution not enjoying the fellowship of the total population applies to the total tax paying population, hardly fair? Greece is a sovereign democratic state and it is the business of Greece whether or not the relationship stays the same or changes. There are enough foreigners sticking their oar into Greek affairs as it is. Sadly Greece's population and politicians seemed to have embraced secular Europe's heady embrace, at least in the heady flush of joining the Euro. Now that has gone very awry. But the secularisation of Greece has been a work in progress for most of the last century, in part lead by innovating Greek bishops who to their eternal shame repeatedly used state forces to brutally and cruelly suppress those who sort simply to hold to the pearl received from their forbears. They would apply the canons to brother Orthodox while all the time ignoring the canons in cementing relationships with the heterodox.



The fact remains that Greek Old Calendarists are schismatics and uncanonical. They aren't any different than the Roman Catholics or Protestants in Greece. Orthodoxy is the only true faith, and if you schism from it, you're an apostate. That is the simple truth. Greece is Orthodox, not uncanonical Old Calendarists.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 02:03:13 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2013, 02:04:31 PM »

I'd like all those state religion agitators spend some time in a country that has state religion (Islam most preferably). It should quickly end their ignorance.
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« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2013, 02:06:23 PM »

I'd like all those state religion agitators spend some time in a country that has state religion (Islam most preferably). It should quickly end their ignorance.

Because the position of Orthodoxy in Greece or Catholicism in Malta is comparable to that of Sunni Islam in Saudi-Arabia?
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« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2013, 02:14:13 PM »

I'd like all those state religion agitators spend some time in a country that has state religion (Islam most preferably). It should quickly end their ignorance.

Like me? I've spent some time in Greece, I would have preferred to spend more time but it just wasn't affordable.

It felt good to finally be in the majority faith for once. It's simple idiocy to try and equate state Orthodoxy with state Islam.
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« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2013, 02:14:38 PM »

I do not have an issue with this, as a one time Greek resident. The Old Calendarists do pay their own way now and surely there is reason why the Church of Greece should not do so too.

Big problem sadly for Greece is the endemic tendency of generations successfully avoiding taxes, with the richest the worst by far. Now the Gaulieter appointed Government dances to a German tune, again. And again good folk starve, lack medicines and necessities and die.

As for Syriza, it is a product of the dogmatic and intolerant left prospering on a society's agony. I would not trust them even a little but none of the political class inspires any confidence.


1. Greek Old Calendarists are uncanonical
2. Greece has no business following the atheistic EU into secularism and separation of church and state

The calendar innovation was introduced uncanonically, against all tradition and brutally suppressed. It might not be germane to the thread, but I didn't bring this up.

What I cited was the simple fact the Old Calendar groups pay tax and the Church of Greece does not. Indeed the burden of supporting an institution not enjoying the fellowship of the total population applies to the total tax paying population, hardly fair? Greece is a sovereign democratic state and it is the business of Greece whether or not the relationship stays the same or changes. There are enough foreigners sticking their oar into Greek affairs as it is. Sadly Greece's population and politicians seemed to have embraced secular Europe's heady embrace, at least in the heady flush of joining the Euro. Now that has gone very awry. But the secularisation of Greece has been a work in progress for most of the last century, in part lead by innovating Greek bishops who to their eternal shame repeatedly used state forces to brutally and cruelly suppress those who sort simply to hold to the pearl received from their forbears. They would apply the canons to brother Orthodox while all the time ignoring the canons in cementing relationships with the heterodox.



The fact remains that Greek Old Calendarists are schismatics and uncanonical. They aren't any different than the Roman Catholics or Protestants in Greece. Orthodoxy is the only true faith, and if you schism from it, you're an apostate. That is the simple truth. Greece is Orthodox, not uncanonical Old Calendarists.

In your opinion, there are other opinions and I note the dodging of the means this innovation whereby this was introduced and dissent suppressed. A custom still in use today in Esphigmenou. Cherry pick all you like but possibly my memory goes back further than yours.

My apologies for the deviation in topic, I did not mean to spark this but simply tried how different religious communities are treated for tax purposes. Surely a legitimate comment within the thread? I am not going to continue with this thread given the most recent shift of focus. Once again my apologies.
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« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2013, 02:15:26 PM »

I'd like all those state religion agitators spend some time in a country that has state religion (Islam most preferably). It should quickly end their ignorance.

Because the position of Orthodoxy in Greece or Catholicism in Malta is comparable to that of Sunni Islam in Saudi-Arabia?

Exactly my point, there isn't a comparison. Some of the atheist idiots in Western Europe seem to think there is, but they are all as stupid as rocks.
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« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2013, 02:17:11 PM »

I do not have an issue with this, as a one time Greek resident. The Old Calendarists do pay their own way now and surely there is reason why the Church of Greece should not do so too.

Big problem sadly for Greece is the endemic tendency of generations successfully avoiding taxes, with the richest the worst by far. Now the Gaulieter appointed Government dances to a German tune, again. And again good folk starve, lack medicines and necessities and die.

As for Syriza, it is a product of the dogmatic and intolerant left prospering on a society's agony. I would not trust them even a little but none of the political class inspires any confidence.


1. Greek Old Calendarists are uncanonical
2. Greece has no business following the atheistic EU into secularism and separation of church and state

The calendar innovation was introduced uncanonically, against all tradition and brutally suppressed. It might not be germane to the thread, but I didn't bring this up.

What I cited was the simple fact the Old Calendar groups pay tax and the Church of Greece does not. Indeed the burden of supporting an institution not enjoying the fellowship of the total population applies to the total tax paying population, hardly fair? Greece is a sovereign democratic state and it is the business of Greece whether or not the relationship stays the same or changes. There are enough foreigners sticking their oar into Greek affairs as it is. Sadly Greece's population and politicians seemed to have embraced secular Europe's heady embrace, at least in the heady flush of joining the Euro. Now that has gone very awry. But the secularisation of Greece has been a work in progress for most of the last century, in part lead by innovating Greek bishops who to their eternal shame repeatedly used state forces to brutally and cruelly suppress those who sort simply to hold to the pearl received from their forbears. They would apply the canons to brother Orthodox while all the time ignoring the canons in cementing relationships with the heterodox.



The fact remains that Greek Old Calendarists are schismatics and uncanonical. They aren't any different than the Roman Catholics or Protestants in Greece. Orthodoxy is the only true faith, and if you schism from it, you're an apostate. That is the simple truth. Greece is Orthodox, not uncanonical Old Calendarists.

In your opinion, there are other opinions and I note the dodging of the means this innovation whereby this was introduced and dissent suppressed. A custom still in use today in Esphigmenou. Cherry pick all you like but possibly my memory goes back further than yours.

My apologies for the deviation in topic, I did not mean to spark this but simply tried how different religious communities are treated for tax purposes. Surely a legitimate comment within the thread? I am not going to continue with this thread given the most recent shift of focus. Once again my apologies.

Esphigmenou is schismatic and uncanonical. They've been condemned multiple times and the monks should be removed from the monastery and from Mount Athos and be replaced by real Orthodox monks, not pretender schismatics.

God help your soul if you're a Greek Old Calendarist.
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« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2013, 02:23:40 PM »

I'd like all those state religion agitators spend some time in a country that has state religion (Islam most preferably). It should quickly end their ignorance.

Because the position of Orthodoxy in Greece or Catholicism in Malta is comparable to that of Sunni Islam in Saudi-Arabia?

Exactly my point, there isn't a comparison. Some of the atheist idiots in Western Europe seem to think there is, but they are all as stupid as rocks.

I Live in a country where Orthodox Church was once made illegal and persecuted by Roman Catholic authorities.
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« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2013, 02:30:53 PM »

I Live in a country where Orthodox Church was once made illegal and persecuted by Roman Catholic authorities.

I live in a country where the Catholic Church was once made illegal and persecuted by Protestant authorities. And when Catholicism was made legal and protestantism abolished as state religion the Catholics got persecuted anyway. What exactly does this have to do with Greece having Orthodoxy as state religion?
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« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2013, 02:31:37 PM »

I'd like all those state religion agitators spend some time in a country that has state religion (Islam most preferably). It should quickly end their ignorance.

Because the position of Orthodoxy in Greece or Catholicism in Malta is comparable to that of Sunni Islam in Saudi-Arabia?

Exactly my point, there isn't a comparison. Some of the atheist idiots in Western Europe seem to think there is, but they are all as stupid as rocks.

I Live in a country where Orthodox Church was once made illegal and persecuted by Roman Catholic authorities.

big deal? that's state Catholicism, not state Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2013, 02:37:18 PM »

I'd like all those state religion agitators spend some time in a country that has state religion (Islam most preferably). It should quickly end their ignorance.

Because the position of Orthodoxy in Greece or Catholicism in Malta is comparable to that of Sunni Islam in Saudi-Arabia?

Exactly my point, there isn't a comparison. Some of the atheist idiots in Western Europe seem to think there is, but they are all as stupid as rocks.

I Live in a country where Orthodox Church was once made illegal and persecuted by Roman Catholic authorities.

big deal? that's state Catholicism, not state Orthodoxy.

"If somebody takes Kali's cow, it's a bad deed. If Kali takes somebody's cow, it's a good deed."
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« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2013, 02:42:39 PM »

I'd like all those state religion agitators spend some time in a country that has state religion (Islam most preferably). It should quickly end their ignorance.

Because the position of Orthodoxy in Greece or Catholicism in Malta is comparable to that of Sunni Islam in Saudi-Arabia?

Exactly my point, there isn't a comparison. Some of the atheist idiots in Western Europe seem to think there is, but they are all as stupid as rocks.

I Live in a country where Orthodox Church was once made illegal and persecuted by Roman Catholic authorities.

big deal? that's state Catholicism, not state Orthodoxy.

"If somebody takes Kali's cow, it's a bad deed. If Kali takes somebody's cow, it's a good deed."

God help your soul if you're falling for the secularism of all the worthless, heretical idiots in Europe. State Orthodoxy is a good thing, why don't you actually do some research and learn about the good things that came from the Roman Empire and the Russian Empires rather than focusing on the bad things that have come out of the heretics of the West?

Quit listening to the godless propaganda of the Western Europeans and start listening to the Orthodox Christians of the past 2000 years.

You're an Orthodox Christian and you should be proud of it, and you should reject the propaganda of the heretics, including of Poland, especially because they rejected Orthodoxy for the heresy of the Pope.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 02:44:51 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2013, 02:44:30 PM »

I'd like all those state religion agitators spend some time in a country that has state religion (Islam most preferably). It should quickly end their ignorance.

Because the position of Orthodoxy in Greece or Catholicism in Malta is comparable to that of Sunni Islam in Saudi-Arabia?

Exactly my point, there isn't a comparison. Some of the atheist idiots in Western Europe seem to think there is, but they are all as stupid as rocks.

I Live in a country where Orthodox Church was once made illegal and persecuted by Roman Catholic authorities.

big deal? that's state Catholicism, not state Orthodoxy.

"If somebody takes Kali's cow, it's a bad deed. If Kali takes somebody's cow, it's a good deed."

God help your soul if you're falling for the secularism of all the worthless, heretical idiots in Europe. State Orthodoxy is a good thing, why don't you actually do some research and learn about the good things that came from the Roman Empire and the Russian Empires rather than focusing on the bad things that have come out of the heretics of the West?

Like tzars abolishing the patriarchate and making the Church a state department governed by a layman? No, thanks.

On the other hand, I understand your longing for something you know nothing about. Everything unknown is interesting and better.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 02:46:00 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2013, 02:45:17 PM »

Was it a good thing when the Paulicians or whatever they were called were burned at the stake by the Orthodox state? Not that it has much to do with the op but since we focus on the great legacy of the Roman state.
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« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2013, 02:45:51 PM »

Calm down Devin. There's no need to lash out against everyone.

Was it a good thing when the Paulicians or whatever they were called were burned at the stake by the Orthodox state? Not that it has much to do with the op but since we focus on the great legacy of the Roman state.

The Paulicians pillaged Anatolia and actively aided the Abbasid Caliphs in their invasions of the Byzantine Empire...
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« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2013, 02:46:33 PM »

I'd like all those state religion agitators spend some time in a country that has state religion (Islam most preferably). It should quickly end their ignorance.

Because the position of Orthodoxy in Greece or Catholicism in Malta is comparable to that of Sunni Islam in Saudi-Arabia?

Exactly my point, there isn't a comparison. Some of the atheist idiots in Western Europe seem to think there is, but they are all as stupid as rocks.

I Live in a country where Orthodox Church was once made illegal and persecuted by Roman Catholic authorities.

big deal? that's state Catholicism, not state Orthodoxy.

"If somebody takes Kali's cow, it's a bad deed. If Kali takes somebody's cow, it's a good deed."

God help your soul if you're falling for the secularism of all the worthless, heretical idiots in Europe. State Orthodoxy is a good thing, why don't you actually do some research and learn about the good things that came from the Roman Empire and the Russian Empires rather than focusing on the bad things that have come out of the heretics of the West?

Like tzars abolishing the patriarchate and making the Church a state department governed by a layman? No, thanks.

You just illustrated my point. You are focusing on the few bad things that have happened and completely ignore all of the good things.

Your thought is more of a product of the idiots and heretics of Poland and the godless, satanic propaganda of Western Europe than its a product of the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2013, 02:47:34 PM »

Was it a good thing when the Paulicians or whatever they were called were burned at the stake by the Orthodox state? Not that it has much to do with the op but since we focus on the great legacy of the Roman state.

Again, you just illustrated my point, but then again, you've illustrated (in the past) that you are already following the Western Europeans rather than following Orthodox Christianity. God help Romania if they start following your ideology.
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« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2013, 02:54:09 PM »

Most righteous father Devin, in truth are you revealed to us as a rule of faith. Pray that our souls may be saved, and minds enlightened.
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« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2013, 03:10:25 PM »

So Devin, what exactly is Orthodoxy in your opinion? How does the faith of the Old Calenderists differ from yours?
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« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2013, 03:17:00 PM »

So Devin, what exactly is Orthodoxy in your opinion? How does the faith of the Old Calenderists differ from yours?

The Greek Old Calendarists abandoned the Orthodox Church and abandoned Christ. They are worthless apostates and schismatics. They threw their baptisms and chrismations into the trash can. They value their rituals and their calendar more than Christ and the Church.

Orthodoxy is the faith and the Church founded by Christ 2,000 years ago. It is and is within the Orthodox Church, the ONLY true Church.

The Orientals are far closer to us than even the Greek Old Calendarists are.
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« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2013, 03:18:32 PM »

I'd like all those state religion agitators spend some time in a country that has state religion (Islam most preferably). It should quickly end their ignorance.

Because the position of Orthodoxy in Greece or Catholicism in Malta is comparable to that of Sunni Islam in Saudi-Arabia?

Exactly my point, there isn't a comparison. Some of the atheist idiots in Western Europe seem to think there is, but they are all as stupid as rocks.

I Live in a country where Orthodox Church was once made illegal and persecuted by Roman Catholic authorities.

big deal? that's state Catholicism, not state Orthodoxy.

"If somebody takes Kali's cow, it's a bad deed. If Kali takes somebody's cow, it's a good deed."

God help your soul if you're falling for the secularism of all the worthless, heretical idiots in Europe. State Orthodoxy is a good thing, why don't you actually do some research and learn about the good things that came from the Roman Empire and the Russian Empires rather than focusing on the bad things that have come out of the heretics of the West?

Like tzars abolishing the patriarchate and making the Church a state department governed by a layman? No, thanks.

You just illustrated my point. You are focusing on the few bad things that have happened and completely ignore all of the good things.

Your thought is more of a product of the idiots and heretics of Poland and the godless, satanic propaganda of Western Europe than its a product of the Orthodox Church.

Name a few good things...
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« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2013, 03:21:06 PM »

I'd like all those state religion agitators spend some time in a country that has state religion (Islam most preferably). It should quickly end their ignorance.

Because the position of Orthodoxy in Greece or Catholicism in Malta is comparable to that of Sunni Islam in Saudi-Arabia?

Exactly my point, there isn't a comparison. Some of the atheist idiots in Western Europe seem to think there is, but they are all as stupid as rocks.

I Live in a country where Orthodox Church was once made illegal and persecuted by Roman Catholic authorities.

big deal? that's state Catholicism, not state Orthodoxy.

"If somebody takes Kali's cow, it's a bad deed. If Kali takes somebody's cow, it's a good deed."

God help your soul if you're falling for the secularism of all the worthless, heretical idiots in Europe. State Orthodoxy is a good thing, why don't you actually do some research and learn about the good things that came from the Roman Empire and the Russian Empires rather than focusing on the bad things that have come out of the heretics of the West?

Like tzars abolishing the patriarchate and making the Church a state department governed by a layman? No, thanks.

You just illustrated my point. You are focusing on the few bad things that have happened and completely ignore all of the good things.

Your thought is more of a product of the idiots and heretics of Poland and the godless, satanic propaganda of Western Europe than its a product of the Orthodox Church.

Name a few good things...

Saint Constantine legalizing Christianity. Saint Theodosius making it the state religion. Christianity being spread throughout the known world. The majority of the known world becoming Christian. Thousands of Churches being built including Hagia Sophia. Heretics being suppressed and defeated, including the burning of their literature and exile for their heresy. The establishment and victory of icons. The defense of Orthodox lands against Papists and Muslims.

That is just a very few examples.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 03:24:12 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2013, 03:21:49 PM »

So Devin, what exactly is Orthodoxy in your opinion? How does the faith of the Old Calenderists differ from yours?

The Greek Old Calendarists abandoned the Orthodox Church and abandoned Christ. They are worthless apostates and schismatics. They threw their baptisms and chrismations into the trash can. They value their rituals and their calendar more than Christ and the Church.



So would consider St. Athanasius to have abandoned the Orthodox Church? Remember, he was exiled by the State, who you said should always be Orthodox.
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« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2013, 03:23:12 PM »

So Devin, what exactly is Orthodoxy in your opinion? How does the faith of the Old Calenderists differ from yours?

The Greek Old Calendarists abandoned the Orthodox Church and abandoned Christ. They are worthless apostates and schismatics. They threw their baptisms and chrismations into the trash can. They value their rituals and their calendar more than Christ and the Church.



So would consider St. Athanasius to have abandoned the Orthodox Church? Remember, he was exiled by the State, who you said should always be Orthodox.

Again, go back to what I said, it's stupid to look to only the few bad things that happened by bad leaders of these Orthodox states.
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« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2013, 03:25:29 PM »

I'd like all those state religion agitators spend some time in a country that has state religion (Islam most preferably). It should quickly end their ignorance.

Because the position of Orthodoxy in Greece or Catholicism in Malta is comparable to that of Sunni Islam in Saudi-Arabia?

Exactly my point, there isn't a comparison. Some of the atheist idiots in Western Europe seem to think there is, but they are all as stupid as rocks.

I Live in a country where Orthodox Church was once made illegal and persecuted by Roman Catholic authorities.

big deal? that's state Catholicism, not state Orthodoxy.

"If somebody takes Kali's cow, it's a bad deed. If Kali takes somebody's cow, it's a good deed."

God help your soul if you're falling for the secularism of all the worthless, heretical idiots in Europe. State Orthodoxy is a good thing, why don't you actually do some research and learn about the good things that came from the Roman Empire and the Russian Empires rather than focusing on the bad things that have come out of the heretics of the West?

Like tzars abolishing the patriarchate and making the Church a state department governed by a layman? No, thanks.

You just illustrated my point. You are focusing on the few bad things that have happened and completely ignore all of the good things.

Your thought is more of a product of the idiots and heretics of Poland and the godless, satanic propaganda of Western Europe than its a product of the Orthodox Church.

Name a few good things...

Saint Constantine legalizing Christianity. Saint Theodosius making it the state religion. Christianity being spread throughout the known world. The majority of the known world becoming Christian. Thousands of Churches being built. Heretics being suppressed and defeated, including the burning of their literature and exile for their heresy. The establishment and victory of icons.

That is just a very few examples.

AFAIR there were emperors who were Monophysites, Monotheletes, or Iconoclasts. So emperors introduced heresies.  Not to mention Peter the Great or Catherine II.
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« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2013, 03:26:31 PM »

I'd like all those state religion agitators spend some time in a country that has state religion (Islam most preferably). It should quickly end their ignorance.

Because the position of Orthodoxy in Greece or Catholicism in Malta is comparable to that of Sunni Islam in Saudi-Arabia?

Exactly my point, there isn't a comparison. Some of the atheist idiots in Western Europe seem to think there is, but they are all as stupid as rocks.

I Live in a country where Orthodox Church was once made illegal and persecuted by Roman Catholic authorities.

big deal? that's state Catholicism, not state Orthodoxy.

"If somebody takes Kali's cow, it's a bad deed. If Kali takes somebody's cow, it's a good deed."

God help your soul if you're falling for the secularism of all the worthless, heretical idiots in Europe. State Orthodoxy is a good thing, why don't you actually do some research and learn about the good things that came from the Roman Empire and the Russian Empires rather than focusing on the bad things that have come out of the heretics of the West?

Like tzars abolishing the patriarchate and making the Church a state department governed by a layman? No, thanks.

You just illustrated my point. You are focusing on the few bad things that have happened and completely ignore all of the good things.

Your thought is more of a product of the idiots and heretics of Poland and the godless, satanic propaganda of Western Europe than its a product of the Orthodox Church.

Name a few good things...

Saint Constantine legalizing Christianity. Saint Theodosius making it the state religion. Christianity being spread throughout the known world. The majority of the known world becoming Christian. Thousands of Churches being built. Heretics being suppressed and defeated, including the burning of their literature and exile for their heresy. The establishment and victory of icons.

That is just a very few examples.

AFAIR there were emperors who were Monophysites, Monotheletes, or Iconoclasts. So emperors introduced heresies.  Not to mention Peter the Great or Catherine II.

But the majority were Orthodox Christians, not heretics.

You're taking a few bad apples and projecting it on the whole, which is stupid.

I'd rather have an Orthodox State and risk a heretical emperor (who could then later be seized and either put to death or imprisoned, Czar Peter should have been killed, as well as Julian the Apostate) yet have mostly Orthodox emperors than have 100% heretical leaders who hide beneath the evils of secularism.
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« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2013, 03:28:15 PM »

But AFAIR, there are only two states that Orthodoxy is a state religion, Greece and Finland. Why won't you move there since there is so wonderful?
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« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2013, 03:29:46 PM »

But AFAIR, there are only two states that Orthodoxy is a state religion, Greece and Finland. Why won't you move there since there is so wonderful?

What a stupid reply. It's as childish and stupid as saying "well, if you love it so much, why don't you marry it?"

The secularism of the United States and especially the liberals sucks, and I actually hope that if we ever go to war with an Orthodox nation like Serbia, Greece or Russia that we would get our butts whupped for our insolence, but I'm not going to leave. I will keep voting for candidates closest to my position.
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« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2013, 03:30:44 PM »

But AFAIR, there are only two states that Orthodoxy is a state religion, Greece and Finland. Why won't you move there since there is so wonderful?

Finland is cold and Greece is poor.
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« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2013, 03:33:12 PM »

But AFAIR, there are only two states that Orthodoxy is a state religion, Greece and Finland. Why won't you move there since there is so wonderful?

What a stupid reply. It's as childish and stupid as saying "well, if you love it so much, why don't you marry it?"

I don't get the cultural reference...

It's a true reply. You know nothing about Dayle life in a religious country. You experienced nothing. You only imagine something that has nothing to do in reality. You fear to compare your imaginations with real life. Living in a fantasy world is easier.
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« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2013, 03:33:33 PM »

But AFAIR, there are only two states that Orthodoxy is a state religion, Greece and Finland. Why won't you move there since there is so wonderful?

Finland is cold and Greece is poor.

Finland is cold and Greece is selling its soul to the EU and secularism.

Maybe Elder Paisios' predictions will actually come true and Russia will teach the West a lesson about messing with Orthodox nations.
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« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2013, 03:35:16 PM »

But AFAIR, there are only two states that Orthodoxy is a state religion, Greece and Finland. Why won't you move there since there is so wonderful?

What a stupid reply. It's as childish and stupid as saying "well, if you love it so much, why don't you marry it?"

I don't get the cultural reference...

It's a true reply. You know nothing about Dayle life in a religious country. You experienced nothing. You only imagine something that has nothing to do in reality. You fear to compare your imaginations with real life. Living in a fantasy world is easier.

I'd suggest you talk to the Serbian Priest that regularly serves at our church. He'd have a lot to disagree with you about.

The United States is a semi-religious nation whose government is being taken over by closet atheists and liberal scum.
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« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2013, 05:46:01 PM »

So Devin, what exactly is Orthodoxy in your opinion? How does the faith of the Old Calenderists differ from yours?

The Greek Old Calendarists abandoned the Orthodox Church and abandoned Christ. They are worthless apostates and schismatics. They threw their baptisms and chrismations into the trash can. They value their rituals and their calendar more than Christ and the Church.

Orthodoxy is the faith and the Church founded by Christ 2,000 years ago. It is and is within the Orthodox Church, the ONLY true Church.

The Orientals are far closer to us than even the Greek Old Calendarists are.

Please stop. Now. God knows our worth and He will judge our faith. I have known plenty of Old Calendarists who in their piety were fully Orthodox and maybe even holy; Schismatic? Probably. Apostate? Never. I suspect that your condemnations are not based on empirical observations but on an abstract notion of your pure and untainted faith on the one side, and 'worthless' apostates and schismatics on the other. The reality is far more nuanced than this, and I pray that God will show you this.

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« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2013, 06:54:15 PM »

I do not have an issue with this, as a one time Greek resident. The Old Calendarists do pay their own way now and surely there is reason why the Church of Greece should not do so too.

Big problem sadly for Greece is the endemic tendency of generations successfully avoiding taxes, with the richest the worst by far. Now the Gaulieter appointed Government dances to a German tune, again. And again good folk starve, lack medicines and necessities and die.

As for Syriza, it is a product of the dogmatic and intolerant left prospering on a society's agony. I would not trust them even a little but none of the political class inspires any confidence.


1. Greek Old Calendarists are uncanonical
2. Greece has no business following the atheistic EU into secularism and separation of church and state

The calendar innovation was introduced uncanonically, against all tradition and brutally suppressed. It might not be germane to the thread, but I didn't bring this up.

What I cited was the simple fact the Old Calendar groups pay tax and the Church of Greece does not. Indeed the burden of supporting an institution not enjoying the fellowship of the total population applies to the total tax paying population, hardly fair? Greece is a sovereign democratic state and it is the business of Greece whether or not the relationship stays the same or changes. There are enough foreigners sticking their oar into Greek affairs as it is. Sadly Greece's population and politicians seemed to have embraced secular Europe's heady embrace, at least in the heady flush of joining the Euro. Now that has gone very awry. But the secularisation of Greece has been a work in progress for most of the last century, in part lead by innovating Greek bishops who to their eternal shame repeatedly used state forces to brutally and cruelly suppress those who sort simply to hold to the pearl received from their forbears. They would apply the canons to brother Orthodox while all the time ignoring the canons in cementing relationships with the heterodox.


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« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2013, 07:23:02 PM »

You know, it does not take much to remember why I avoid these forums. Just looking at this thread reaffirms this. Sad state of affairs.
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