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Author Topic: SYRIZA Wants [Greek] State Break With Church  (Read 1930 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: January 29, 2013, 12:54:43 AM »

http://www.pravmir.com/syriza-wants-state-break-with-church/

Quote
A proposal by a Member of Parliament from the major opposition Coalition of the Radical Left (SYRIZA) party for separation from the government with the Greek Orthodox Church – and a tax on those who declare themselves to be Orthodox Christians – has prompted an angry response from the ruling New Democracy Conservatives.
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« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2013, 12:11:41 PM »

I do not have an issue with this, as a one time Greek resident. The Old Calendarists do pay their own way now and surely there is reason why the Church of Greece should not do so too.

Big problem sadly for Greece is the endemic tendency of generations successfully avoiding taxes, with the richest the worst by far. Now the Gaulieter appointed Government dances to a German tune, again. And again good folk starve, lack medicines and necessities and die.

As for Syriza, it is a product of the dogmatic and intolerant left prospering on a society's agony. I would not trust them even a little but none of the political class inspires any confidence.
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« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2013, 12:56:24 PM »

I do not have an issue with this, as a one time Greek resident. The Old Calendarists do pay their own way now and surely there is reason why the Church of Greece should not do so too.

Big problem sadly for Greece is the endemic tendency of generations successfully avoiding taxes, with the richest the worst by far. Now the Gaulieter appointed Government dances to a German tune, again. And again good folk starve, lack medicines and necessities and die.

As for Syriza, it is a product of the dogmatic and intolerant left prospering on a society's agony. I would not trust them even a little but none of the political class inspires any confidence.

1. Greek Old Calendarists are uncanonical
2. Greece has no business following the atheistic EU into secularism and separation of church and state
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« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2013, 12:59:56 PM »

2. Greece has no business following the atheistic EU into secularism and separation of church and state

Said Zygmunt III Waza.
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« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2013, 01:05:06 PM »

2. Greece has no business following the atheistic EU into secularism and separation of church and state

 Huh
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« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2013, 01:37:13 PM »

http://www.pravmir.com/syriza-wants-state-break-with-church/

Quote
A proposal by a Member of Parliament from the major opposition Coalition of the Radical Left (SYRIZA) party for separation from the government with the Greek Orthodox Church – and a tax on those who declare themselves to be Orthodox Christians – has prompted an angry response from the ruling New Democracy Conservatives.

 Huh
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« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2013, 01:49:29 PM »

I do not have an issue with this, as a one time Greek resident. The Old Calendarists do pay their own way now and surely there is reason why the Church of Greece should not do so too.

Big problem sadly for Greece is the endemic tendency of generations successfully avoiding taxes, with the richest the worst by far. Now the Gaulieter appointed Government dances to a German tune, again. And again good folk starve, lack medicines and necessities and die.

As for Syriza, it is a product of the dogmatic and intolerant left prospering on a society's agony. I would not trust them even a little but none of the political class inspires any confidence.


1. Greek Old Calendarists are uncanonical
2. Greece has no business following the atheistic EU into secularism and separation of church and state

The calendar innovation was introduced uncanonically, against all tradition and brutally suppressed. It might not be germane to the thread, but I didn't bring this up.

What I cited was the simple fact the Old Calendar groups pay tax and the Church of Greece does not. Indeed the burden of supporting an institution not enjoying the fellowship of the total population applies to the total tax paying population, hardly fair? Greece is a sovereign democratic state and it is the business of Greece whether or not the relationship stays the same or changes. There are enough foreigners sticking their oar into Greek affairs as it is. Sadly Greece's population and politicians seemed to have embraced secular Europe's heady embrace, at least in the heady flush of joining the Euro. Now that has gone very awry. But the secularisation of Greece has been a work in progress for most of the last century, in part lead by innovating Greek bishops who to their eternal shame repeatedly used state forces to brutally and cruelly suppress those who sort simply to hold to the pearl received from their forbears. They would apply the canons to brother Orthodox while all the time ignoring the canons in cementing relationships with the heterodox.

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« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2013, 01:52:39 PM »

in part lead by innovating Greek bishops who to their eternal shame repeatedly used state forces to brutally and cruelly suppress those who sort simply to hold to the pearl received from their forbears. They would apply the canons to brother Orthodox while all the time ignoring the canons in cementing relationships with the heterodox.



The Julian Calendar is a 'pearl'?
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« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2013, 01:54:18 PM »

Discuss calendar in the proper thread.
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« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2013, 02:00:29 PM »

2. Greece has no business following the atheistic EU into secularism and separation of church and state

 Huh

The EU is pretty strongly atheist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Europe

Some of the most religious of EU nations are those that are suffering the most economically... Ireland, Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece.

The most atheist nations in the EU are France, the Czech Republic, Belgium, the Netherlands, Estonia, Germany, Sweden, Luxembourg and the UK. (in that order)

The most religious nations in the EU are Malta, Cyprus, Romania, Portugal, Greece, Poland, Italy, Ireland, Slovakia, Spain and Austria. (in that order)
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« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2013, 02:02:05 PM »

I do not have an issue with this, as a one time Greek resident. The Old Calendarists do pay their own way now and surely there is reason why the Church of Greece should not do so too.

Big problem sadly for Greece is the endemic tendency of generations successfully avoiding taxes, with the richest the worst by far. Now the Gaulieter appointed Government dances to a German tune, again. And again good folk starve, lack medicines and necessities and die.

As for Syriza, it is a product of the dogmatic and intolerant left prospering on a society's agony. I would not trust them even a little but none of the political class inspires any confidence.


1. Greek Old Calendarists are uncanonical
2. Greece has no business following the atheistic EU into secularism and separation of church and state

The calendar innovation was introduced uncanonically, against all tradition and brutally suppressed. It might not be germane to the thread, but I didn't bring this up.

What I cited was the simple fact the Old Calendar groups pay tax and the Church of Greece does not. Indeed the burden of supporting an institution not enjoying the fellowship of the total population applies to the total tax paying population, hardly fair? Greece is a sovereign democratic state and it is the business of Greece whether or not the relationship stays the same or changes. There are enough foreigners sticking their oar into Greek affairs as it is. Sadly Greece's population and politicians seemed to have embraced secular Europe's heady embrace, at least in the heady flush of joining the Euro. Now that has gone very awry. But the secularisation of Greece has been a work in progress for most of the last century, in part lead by innovating Greek bishops who to their eternal shame repeatedly used state forces to brutally and cruelly suppress those who sort simply to hold to the pearl received from their forbears. They would apply the canons to brother Orthodox while all the time ignoring the canons in cementing relationships with the heterodox.



The fact remains that Greek Old Calendarists are schismatics and uncanonical. They aren't any different than the Roman Catholics or Protestants in Greece. Orthodoxy is the only true faith, and if you schism from it, you're an apostate. That is the simple truth. Greece is Orthodox, not uncanonical Old Calendarists.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 02:03:13 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2013, 02:04:31 PM »

I'd like all those state religion agitators spend some time in a country that has state religion (Islam most preferably). It should quickly end their ignorance.
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« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2013, 02:06:23 PM »

I'd like all those state religion agitators spend some time in a country that has state religion (Islam most preferably). It should quickly end their ignorance.

Because the position of Orthodoxy in Greece or Catholicism in Malta is comparable to that of Sunni Islam in Saudi-Arabia?
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« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2013, 02:14:13 PM »

I'd like all those state religion agitators spend some time in a country that has state religion (Islam most preferably). It should quickly end their ignorance.

Like me? I've spent some time in Greece, I would have preferred to spend more time but it just wasn't affordable.

It felt good to finally be in the majority faith for once. It's simple idiocy to try and equate state Orthodoxy with state Islam.
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« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2013, 02:14:38 PM »

I do not have an issue with this, as a one time Greek resident. The Old Calendarists do pay their own way now and surely there is reason why the Church of Greece should not do so too.

Big problem sadly for Greece is the endemic tendency of generations successfully avoiding taxes, with the richest the worst by far. Now the Gaulieter appointed Government dances to a German tune, again. And again good folk starve, lack medicines and necessities and die.

As for Syriza, it is a product of the dogmatic and intolerant left prospering on a society's agony. I would not trust them even a little but none of the political class inspires any confidence.


1. Greek Old Calendarists are uncanonical
2. Greece has no business following the atheistic EU into secularism and separation of church and state

The calendar innovation was introduced uncanonically, against all tradition and brutally suppressed. It might not be germane to the thread, but I didn't bring this up.

What I cited was the simple fact the Old Calendar groups pay tax and the Church of Greece does not. Indeed the burden of supporting an institution not enjoying the fellowship of the total population applies to the total tax paying population, hardly fair? Greece is a sovereign democratic state and it is the business of Greece whether or not the relationship stays the same or changes. There are enough foreigners sticking their oar into Greek affairs as it is. Sadly Greece's population and politicians seemed to have embraced secular Europe's heady embrace, at least in the heady flush of joining the Euro. Now that has gone very awry. But the secularisation of Greece has been a work in progress for most of the last century, in part lead by innovating Greek bishops who to their eternal shame repeatedly used state forces to brutally and cruelly suppress those who sort simply to hold to the pearl received from their forbears. They would apply the canons to brother Orthodox while all the time ignoring the canons in cementing relationships with the heterodox.



The fact remains that Greek Old Calendarists are schismatics and uncanonical. They aren't any different than the Roman Catholics or Protestants in Greece. Orthodoxy is the only true faith, and if you schism from it, you're an apostate. That is the simple truth. Greece is Orthodox, not uncanonical Old Calendarists.

In your opinion, there are other opinions and I note the dodging of the means this innovation whereby this was introduced and dissent suppressed. A custom still in use today in Esphigmenou. Cherry pick all you like but possibly my memory goes back further than yours.

My apologies for the deviation in topic, I did not mean to spark this but simply tried how different religious communities are treated for tax purposes. Surely a legitimate comment within the thread? I am not going to continue with this thread given the most recent shift of focus. Once again my apologies.
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« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2013, 02:15:26 PM »

I'd like all those state religion agitators spend some time in a country that has state religion (Islam most preferably). It should quickly end their ignorance.

Because the position of Orthodoxy in Greece or Catholicism in Malta is comparable to that of Sunni Islam in Saudi-Arabia?

Exactly my point, there isn't a comparison. Some of the atheist idiots in Western Europe seem to think there is, but they are all as stupid as rocks.
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« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2013, 02:17:11 PM »

I do not have an issue with this, as a one time Greek resident. The Old Calendarists do pay their own way now and surely there is reason why the Church of Greece should not do so too.

Big problem sadly for Greece is the endemic tendency of generations successfully avoiding taxes, with the richest the worst by far. Now the Gaulieter appointed Government dances to a German tune, again. And again good folk starve, lack medicines and necessities and die.

As for Syriza, it is a product of the dogmatic and intolerant left prospering on a society's agony. I would not trust them even a little but none of the political class inspires any confidence.


1. Greek Old Calendarists are uncanonical
2. Greece has no business following the atheistic EU into secularism and separation of church and state

The calendar innovation was introduced uncanonically, against all tradition and brutally suppressed. It might not be germane to the thread, but I didn't bring this up.

What I cited was the simple fact the Old Calendar groups pay tax and the Church of Greece does not. Indeed the burden of supporting an institution not enjoying the fellowship of the total population applies to the total tax paying population, hardly fair? Greece is a sovereign democratic state and it is the business of Greece whether or not the relationship stays the same or changes. There are enough foreigners sticking their oar into Greek affairs as it is. Sadly Greece's population and politicians seemed to have embraced secular Europe's heady embrace, at least in the heady flush of joining the Euro. Now that has gone very awry. But the secularisation of Greece has been a work in progress for most of the last century, in part lead by innovating Greek bishops who to their eternal shame repeatedly used state forces to brutally and cruelly suppress those who sort simply to hold to the pearl received from their forbears. They would apply the canons to brother Orthodox while all the time ignoring the canons in cementing relationships with the heterodox.



The fact remains that Greek Old Calendarists are schismatics and uncanonical. They aren't any different than the Roman Catholics or Protestants in Greece. Orthodoxy is the only true faith, and if you schism from it, you're an apostate. That is the simple truth. Greece is Orthodox, not uncanonical Old Calendarists.

In your opinion, there are other opinions and I note the dodging of the means this innovation whereby this was introduced and dissent suppressed. A custom still in use today in Esphigmenou. Cherry pick all you like but possibly my memory goes back further than yours.

My apologies for the deviation in topic, I did not mean to spark this but simply tried how different religious communities are treated for tax purposes. Surely a legitimate comment within the thread? I am not going to continue with this thread given the most recent shift of focus. Once again my apologies.

Esphigmenou is schismatic and uncanonical. They've been condemned multiple times and the monks should be removed from the monastery and from Mount Athos and be replaced by real Orthodox monks, not pretender schismatics.

God help your soul if you're a Greek Old Calendarist.
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« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2013, 02:23:40 PM »

I'd like all those state religion agitators spend some time in a country that has state religion (Islam most preferably). It should quickly end their ignorance.

Because the position of Orthodoxy in Greece or Catholicism in Malta is comparable to that of Sunni Islam in Saudi-Arabia?

Exactly my point, there isn't a comparison. Some of the atheist idiots in Western Europe seem to think there is, but they are all as stupid as rocks.

I Live in a country where Orthodox Church was once made illegal and persecuted by Roman Catholic authorities.
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« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2013, 02:30:53 PM »

I Live in a country where Orthodox Church was once made illegal and persecuted by Roman Catholic authorities.

I live in a country where the Catholic Church was once made illegal and persecuted by Protestant authorities. And when Catholicism was made legal and protestantism abolished as state religion the Catholics got persecuted anyway. What exactly does this have to do with Greece having Orthodoxy as state religion?
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« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2013, 02:31:37 PM »

I'd like all those state religion agitators spend some time in a country that has state religion (Islam most preferably). It should quickly end their ignorance.

Because the position of Orthodoxy in Greece or Catholicism in Malta is comparable to that of Sunni Islam in Saudi-Arabia?

Exactly my point, there isn't a comparison. Some of the atheist idiots in Western Europe seem to think there is, but they are all as stupid as rocks.

I Live in a country where Orthodox Church was once made illegal and persecuted by Roman Catholic authorities.

big deal? that's state Catholicism, not state Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2013, 02:37:18 PM »

I'd like all those state religion agitators spend some time in a country that has state religion (Islam most preferably). It should quickly end their ignorance.

Because the position of Orthodoxy in Greece or Catholicism in Malta is comparable to that of Sunni Islam in Saudi-Arabia?

Exactly my point, there isn't a comparison. Some of the atheist idiots in Western Europe seem to think there is, but they are all as stupid as rocks.

I Live in a country where Orthodox Church was once made illegal and persecuted by Roman Catholic authorities.

big deal? that's state Catholicism, not state Orthodoxy.

"If somebody takes Kali's cow, it's a bad deed. If Kali takes somebody's cow, it's a good deed."
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« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2013, 02:42:39 PM »

I'd like all those state religion agitators spend some time in a country that has state religion (Islam most preferably). It should quickly end their ignorance.

Because the position of Orthodoxy in Greece or Catholicism in Malta is comparable to that of Sunni Islam in Saudi-Arabia?

Exactly my point, there isn't a comparison. Some of the atheist idiots in Western Europe seem to think there is, but they are all as stupid as rocks.

I Live in a country where Orthodox Church was once made illegal and persecuted by Roman Catholic authorities.

big deal? that's state Catholicism, not state Orthodoxy.

"If somebody takes Kali's cow, it's a bad deed. If Kali takes somebody's cow, it's a good deed."

God help your soul if you're falling for the secularism of all the worthless, heretical idiots in Europe. State Orthodoxy is a good thing, why don't you actually do some research and learn about the good things that came from the Roman Empire and the Russian Empires rather than focusing on the bad things that have come out of the heretics of the West?

Quit listening to the godless propaganda of the Western Europeans and start listening to the Orthodox Christians of the past 2000 years.

You're an Orthodox Christian and you should be proud of it, and you should reject the propaganda of the heretics, including of Poland, especially because they rejected Orthodoxy for the heresy of the Pope.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 02:44:51 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2013, 02:44:30 PM »

I'd like all those state religion agitators spend some time in a country that has state religion (Islam most preferably). It should quickly end their ignorance.

Because the position of Orthodoxy in Greece or Catholicism in Malta is comparable to that of Sunni Islam in Saudi-Arabia?

Exactly my point, there isn't a comparison. Some of the atheist idiots in Western Europe seem to think there is, but they are all as stupid as rocks.

I Live in a country where Orthodox Church was once made illegal and persecuted by Roman Catholic authorities.

big deal? that's state Catholicism, not state Orthodoxy.

"If somebody takes Kali's cow, it's a bad deed. If Kali takes somebody's cow, it's a good deed."

God help your soul if you're falling for the secularism of all the worthless, heretical idiots in Europe. State Orthodoxy is a good thing, why don't you actually do some research and learn about the good things that came from the Roman Empire and the Russian Empires rather than focusing on the bad things that have come out of the heretics of the West?

Like tzars abolishing the patriarchate and making the Church a state department governed by a layman? No, thanks.

On the other hand, I understand your longing for something you know nothing about. Everything unknown is interesting and better.
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« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2013, 02:45:17 PM »

Was it a good thing when the Paulicians or whatever they were called were burned at the stake by the Orthodox state? Not that it has much to do with the op but since we focus on the great legacy of the Roman state.
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« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2013, 02:45:51 PM »

Calm down Devin. There's no need to lash out against everyone.

Was it a good thing when the Paulicians or whatever they were called were burned at the stake by the Orthodox state? Not that it has much to do with the op but since we focus on the great legacy of the Roman state.

The Paulicians pillaged Anatolia and actively aided the Abbasid Caliphs in their invasions of the Byzantine Empire...
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 02:46:36 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2013, 02:46:33 PM »

I'd like all those state religion agitators spend some time in a country that has state religion (Islam most preferably). It should quickly end their ignorance.

Because the position of Orthodoxy in Greece or Catholicism in Malta is comparable to that of Sunni Islam in Saudi-Arabia?

Exactly my point, there isn't a comparison. Some of the atheist idiots in Western Europe seem to think there is, but they are all as stupid as rocks.

I Live in a country where Orthodox Church was once made illegal and persecuted by Roman Catholic authorities.

big deal? that's state Catholicism, not state Orthodoxy.

"If somebody takes Kali's cow, it's a bad deed. If Kali takes somebody's cow, it's a good deed."

God help your soul if you're falling for the secularism of all the worthless, heretical idiots in Europe. State Orthodoxy is a good thing, why don't you actually do some research and learn about the good things that came from the Roman Empire and the Russian Empires rather than focusing on the bad things that have come out of the heretics of the West?

Like tzars abolishing the patriarchate and making the Church a state department governed by a layman? No, thanks.

You just illustrated my point. You are focusing on the few bad things that have happened and completely ignore all of the good things.

Your thought is more of a product of the idiots and heretics of Poland and the godless, satanic propaganda of Western Europe than its a product of the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2013, 02:47:34 PM »

Was it a good thing when the Paulicians or whatever they were called were burned at the stake by the Orthodox state? Not that it has much to do with the op but since we focus on the great legacy of the Roman state.

Again, you just illustrated my point, but then again, you've illustrated (in the past) that you are already following the Western Europeans rather than following Orthodox Christianity. God help Romania if they start following your ideology.
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« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2013, 02:54:09 PM »

Most righteous father Devin, in truth are you revealed to us as a rule of faith. Pray that our souls may be saved, and minds enlightened.
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« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2013, 03:10:25 PM »

So Devin, what exactly is Orthodoxy in your opinion? How does the faith of the Old Calenderists differ from yours?
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« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2013, 03:17:00 PM »

So Devin, what exactly is Orthodoxy in your opinion? How does the faith of the Old Calenderists differ from yours?

The Greek Old Calendarists abandoned the Orthodox Church and abandoned Christ. They are worthless apostates and schismatics. They threw their baptisms and chrismations into the trash can. They value their rituals and their calendar more than Christ and the Church.

Orthodoxy is the faith and the Church founded by Christ 2,000 years ago. It is and is within the Orthodox Church, the ONLY true Church.

The Orientals are far closer to us than even the Greek Old Calendarists are.
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« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2013, 03:18:32 PM »

I'd like all those state religion agitators spend some time in a country that has state religion (Islam most preferably). It should quickly end their ignorance.

Because the position of Orthodoxy in Greece or Catholicism in Malta is comparable to that of Sunni Islam in Saudi-Arabia?

Exactly my point, there isn't a comparison. Some of the atheist idiots in Western Europe seem to think there is, but they are all as stupid as rocks.

I Live in a country where Orthodox Church was once made illegal and persecuted by Roman Catholic authorities.

big deal? that's state Catholicism, not state Orthodoxy.

"If somebody takes Kali's cow, it's a bad deed. If Kali takes somebody's cow, it's a good deed."

God help your soul if you're falling for the secularism of all the worthless, heretical idiots in Europe. State Orthodoxy is a good thing, why don't you actually do some research and learn about the good things that came from the Roman Empire and the Russian Empires rather than focusing on the bad things that have come out of the heretics of the West?

Like tzars abolishing the patriarchate and making the Church a state department governed by a layman? No, thanks.

You just illustrated my point. You are focusing on the few bad things that have happened and completely ignore all of the good things.

Your thought is more of a product of the idiots and heretics of Poland and the godless, satanic propaganda of Western Europe than its a product of the Orthodox Church.

Name a few good things...
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« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2013, 03:21:06 PM »

I'd like all those state religion agitators spend some time in a country that has state religion (Islam most preferably). It should quickly end their ignorance.

Because the position of Orthodoxy in Greece or Catholicism in Malta is comparable to that of Sunni Islam in Saudi-Arabia?

Exactly my point, there isn't a comparison. Some of the atheist idiots in Western Europe seem to think there is, but they are all as stupid as rocks.

I Live in a country where Orthodox Church was once made illegal and persecuted by Roman Catholic authorities.

big deal? that's state Catholicism, not state Orthodoxy.

"If somebody takes Kali's cow, it's a bad deed. If Kali takes somebody's cow, it's a good deed."

God help your soul if you're falling for the secularism of all the worthless, heretical idiots in Europe. State Orthodoxy is a good thing, why don't you actually do some research and learn about the good things that came from the Roman Empire and the Russian Empires rather than focusing on the bad things that have come out of the heretics of the West?

Like tzars abolishing the patriarchate and making the Church a state department governed by a layman? No, thanks.

You just illustrated my point. You are focusing on the few bad things that have happened and completely ignore all of the good things.

Your thought is more of a product of the idiots and heretics of Poland and the godless, satanic propaganda of Western Europe than its a product of the Orthodox Church.

Name a few good things...

Saint Constantine legalizing Christianity. Saint Theodosius making it the state religion. Christianity being spread throughout the known world. The majority of the known world becoming Christian. Thousands of Churches being built including Hagia Sophia. Heretics being suppressed and defeated, including the burning of their literature and exile for their heresy. The establishment and victory of icons. The defense of Orthodox lands against Papists and Muslims.

That is just a very few examples.
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« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2013, 03:21:49 PM »

So Devin, what exactly is Orthodoxy in your opinion? How does the faith of the Old Calenderists differ from yours?

The Greek Old Calendarists abandoned the Orthodox Church and abandoned Christ. They are worthless apostates and schismatics. They threw their baptisms and chrismations into the trash can. They value their rituals and their calendar more than Christ and the Church.



So would consider St. Athanasius to have abandoned the Orthodox Church? Remember, he was exiled by the State, who you said should always be Orthodox.
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« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2013, 03:23:12 PM »

So Devin, what exactly is Orthodoxy in your opinion? How does the faith of the Old Calenderists differ from yours?

The Greek Old Calendarists abandoned the Orthodox Church and abandoned Christ. They are worthless apostates and schismatics. They threw their baptisms and chrismations into the trash can. They value their rituals and their calendar more than Christ and the Church.



So would consider St. Athanasius to have abandoned the Orthodox Church? Remember, he was exiled by the State, who you said should always be Orthodox.

Again, go back to what I said, it's stupid to look to only the few bad things that happened by bad leaders of these Orthodox states.
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« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2013, 03:25:29 PM »

I'd like all those state religion agitators spend some time in a country that has state religion (Islam most preferably). It should quickly end their ignorance.

Because the position of Orthodoxy in Greece or Catholicism in Malta is comparable to that of Sunni Islam in Saudi-Arabia?

Exactly my point, there isn't a comparison. Some of the atheist idiots in Western Europe seem to think there is, but they are all as stupid as rocks.

I Live in a country where Orthodox Church was once made illegal and persecuted by Roman Catholic authorities.

big deal? that's state Catholicism, not state Orthodoxy.

"If somebody takes Kali's cow, it's a bad deed. If Kali takes somebody's cow, it's a good deed."

God help your soul if you're falling for the secularism of all the worthless, heretical idiots in Europe. State Orthodoxy is a good thing, why don't you actually do some research and learn about the good things that came from the Roman Empire and the Russian Empires rather than focusing on the bad things that have come out of the heretics of the West?

Like tzars abolishing the patriarchate and making the Church a state department governed by a layman? No, thanks.

You just illustrated my point. You are focusing on the few bad things that have happened and completely ignore all of the good things.

Your thought is more of a product of the idiots and heretics of Poland and the godless, satanic propaganda of Western Europe than its a product of the Orthodox Church.

Name a few good things...

Saint Constantine legalizing Christianity. Saint Theodosius making it the state religion. Christianity being spread throughout the known world. The majority of the known world becoming Christian. Thousands of Churches being built. Heretics being suppressed and defeated, including the burning of their literature and exile for their heresy. The establishment and victory of icons.

That is just a very few examples.

AFAIR there were emperors who were Monophysites, Monotheletes, or Iconoclasts. So emperors introduced heresies.  Not to mention Peter the Great or Catherine II.
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« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2013, 03:26:31 PM »

I'd like all those state religion agitators spend some time in a country that has state religion (Islam most preferably). It should quickly end their ignorance.

Because the position of Orthodoxy in Greece or Catholicism in Malta is comparable to that of Sunni Islam in Saudi-Arabia?

Exactly my point, there isn't a comparison. Some of the atheist idiots in Western Europe seem to think there is, but they are all as stupid as rocks.

I Live in a country where Orthodox Church was once made illegal and persecuted by Roman Catholic authorities.

big deal? that's state Catholicism, not state Orthodoxy.

"If somebody takes Kali's cow, it's a bad deed. If Kali takes somebody's cow, it's a good deed."

God help your soul if you're falling for the secularism of all the worthless, heretical idiots in Europe. State Orthodoxy is a good thing, why don't you actually do some research and learn about the good things that came from the Roman Empire and the Russian Empires rather than focusing on the bad things that have come out of the heretics of the West?

Like tzars abolishing the patriarchate and making the Church a state department governed by a layman? No, thanks.

You just illustrated my point. You are focusing on the few bad things that have happened and completely ignore all of the good things.

Your thought is more of a product of the idiots and heretics of Poland and the godless, satanic propaganda of Western Europe than its a product of the Orthodox Church.

Name a few good things...

Saint Constantine legalizing Christianity. Saint Theodosius making it the state religion. Christianity being spread throughout the known world. The majority of the known world becoming Christian. Thousands of Churches being built. Heretics being suppressed and defeated, including the burning of their literature and exile for their heresy. The establishment and victory of icons.

That is just a very few examples.

AFAIR there were emperors who were Monophysites, Monotheletes, or Iconoclasts. So emperors introduced heresies.  Not to mention Peter the Great or Catherine II.

But the majority were Orthodox Christians, not heretics.

You're taking a few bad apples and projecting it on the whole, which is stupid.

I'd rather have an Orthodox State and risk a heretical emperor (who could then later be seized and either put to death or imprisoned, Czar Peter should have been killed, as well as Julian the Apostate) yet have mostly Orthodox emperors than have 100% heretical leaders who hide beneath the evils of secularism.
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« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2013, 03:28:15 PM »

But AFAIR, there are only two states that Orthodoxy is a state religion, Greece and Finland. Why won't you move there since there is so wonderful?
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« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2013, 03:29:46 PM »

But AFAIR, there are only two states that Orthodoxy is a state religion, Greece and Finland. Why won't you move there since there is so wonderful?

What a stupid reply. It's as childish and stupid as saying "well, if you love it so much, why don't you marry it?"

The secularism of the United States and especially the liberals sucks, and I actually hope that if we ever go to war with an Orthodox nation like Serbia, Greece or Russia that we would get our butts whupped for our insolence, but I'm not going to leave. I will keep voting for candidates closest to my position.
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« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2013, 03:30:44 PM »

But AFAIR, there are only two states that Orthodoxy is a state religion, Greece and Finland. Why won't you move there since there is so wonderful?

Finland is cold and Greece is poor.
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« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2013, 03:33:12 PM »

But AFAIR, there are only two states that Orthodoxy is a state religion, Greece and Finland. Why won't you move there since there is so wonderful?

What a stupid reply. It's as childish and stupid as saying "well, if you love it so much, why don't you marry it?"

I don't get the cultural reference...

It's a true reply. You know nothing about Dayle life in a religious country. You experienced nothing. You only imagine something that has nothing to do in reality. You fear to compare your imaginations with real life. Living in a fantasy world is easier.
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« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2013, 03:33:33 PM »

But AFAIR, there are only two states that Orthodoxy is a state religion, Greece and Finland. Why won't you move there since there is so wonderful?

Finland is cold and Greece is poor.

Finland is cold and Greece is selling its soul to the EU and secularism.

Maybe Elder Paisios' predictions will actually come true and Russia will teach the West a lesson about messing with Orthodox nations.
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« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2013, 03:35:16 PM »

But AFAIR, there are only two states that Orthodoxy is a state religion, Greece and Finland. Why won't you move there since there is so wonderful?

What a stupid reply. It's as childish and stupid as saying "well, if you love it so much, why don't you marry it?"

I don't get the cultural reference...

It's a true reply. You know nothing about Dayle life in a religious country. You experienced nothing. You only imagine something that has nothing to do in reality. You fear to compare your imaginations with real life. Living in a fantasy world is easier.

I'd suggest you talk to the Serbian Priest that regularly serves at our church. He'd have a lot to disagree with you about.

The United States is a semi-religious nation whose government is being taken over by closet atheists and liberal scum.
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« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2013, 05:46:01 PM »

So Devin, what exactly is Orthodoxy in your opinion? How does the faith of the Old Calenderists differ from yours?

The Greek Old Calendarists abandoned the Orthodox Church and abandoned Christ. They are worthless apostates and schismatics. They threw their baptisms and chrismations into the trash can. They value their rituals and their calendar more than Christ and the Church.

Orthodoxy is the faith and the Church founded by Christ 2,000 years ago. It is and is within the Orthodox Church, the ONLY true Church.

The Orientals are far closer to us than even the Greek Old Calendarists are.

Please stop. Now. God knows our worth and He will judge our faith. I have known plenty of Old Calendarists who in their piety were fully Orthodox and maybe even holy; Schismatic? Probably. Apostate? Never. I suspect that your condemnations are not based on empirical observations but on an abstract notion of your pure and untainted faith on the one side, and 'worthless' apostates and schismatics on the other. The reality is far more nuanced than this, and I pray that God will show you this.

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« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2013, 06:54:15 PM »

I do not have an issue with this, as a one time Greek resident. The Old Calendarists do pay their own way now and surely there is reason why the Church of Greece should not do so too.

Big problem sadly for Greece is the endemic tendency of generations successfully avoiding taxes, with the richest the worst by far. Now the Gaulieter appointed Government dances to a German tune, again. And again good folk starve, lack medicines and necessities and die.

As for Syriza, it is a product of the dogmatic and intolerant left prospering on a society's agony. I would not trust them even a little but none of the political class inspires any confidence.


1. Greek Old Calendarists are uncanonical
2. Greece has no business following the atheistic EU into secularism and separation of church and state

The calendar innovation was introduced uncanonically, against all tradition and brutally suppressed. It might not be germane to the thread, but I didn't bring this up.

What I cited was the simple fact the Old Calendar groups pay tax and the Church of Greece does not. Indeed the burden of supporting an institution not enjoying the fellowship of the total population applies to the total tax paying population, hardly fair? Greece is a sovereign democratic state and it is the business of Greece whether or not the relationship stays the same or changes. There are enough foreigners sticking their oar into Greek affairs as it is. Sadly Greece's population and politicians seemed to have embraced secular Europe's heady embrace, at least in the heady flush of joining the Euro. Now that has gone very awry. But the secularisation of Greece has been a work in progress for most of the last century, in part lead by innovating Greek bishops who to their eternal shame repeatedly used state forces to brutally and cruelly suppress those who sort simply to hold to the pearl received from their forbears. They would apply the canons to brother Orthodox while all the time ignoring the canons in cementing relationships with the heterodox.


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Also, welcome to the forum  Wink
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« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2013, 07:23:02 PM »

You know, it does not take much to remember why I avoid these forums. Just looking at this thread reaffirms this. Sad state of affairs.
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« Reply #45 on: January 29, 2013, 07:29:06 PM »

You know, it does not take much to remember why I avoid these forums. Just looking at this thread reaffirms this. Sad state of affairs.

So you came back to show how dignified you are. Makes sense.
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« Reply #46 on: January 29, 2013, 07:33:45 PM »

You know, it does not take much to remember why I avoid these forums. Just looking at this thread reaffirms this. Sad state of affairs.

So you came back to show how dignified you are. Makes sense.
good shot
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« Reply #47 on: January 29, 2013, 07:34:06 PM »

You know, it does not take much to remember why I avoid these forums. Just looking at this thread reaffirms this. Sad state of affairs.

So you came back to show how dignified you are. Makes sense.

Yes Michal, I am glorifying myself. That was the obvious reason behind my post... I really should delete my account. That way I am not tempted to get involved in this nonsense.
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« Reply #48 on: January 29, 2013, 07:36:32 PM »

The Greek Old Calendarists abandoned the Orthodox Church and abandoned Christ. They are worthless apostates and schismatics. They threw their baptisms and chrismations into the trash can. They value their rituals and their calendar more than Christ and the Church.

I wonder, if we ever got together for an oc.net picnic (again), would you say that to the face of an old calendarist? The owner of the forum, Fr. Anastasios, perhaps? Not that I would want to see such a thing, I bring it up only as a remark about civility. Speaking the truth is one thing; being rude (especially to your host, albeit indirectly) is quite another.
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« Reply #49 on: January 29, 2013, 07:56:28 PM »

So Devin, what exactly is Orthodoxy in your opinion? How does the faith of the Old Calenderists differ from yours?

The Greek Old Calendarists abandoned the Orthodox Church and abandoned Christ. They are worthless apostates and schismatics. They threw their baptisms and chrismations into the trash can. They value their rituals and their calendar more than Christ and the Church.

Orthodoxy is the faith and the Church founded by Christ 2,000 years ago. It is and is within the Orthodox Church, the ONLY true Church.

The Orientals are far closer to us than even the Greek Old Calendarists are.
Devin,

Why is it that you claim the True Church is the church you adhere to and that there is salvation only in the so-called "canonical""orthodox" church, yet you are the ones which accept the ecumenist pan-heresy and are the ones spoiling and Blaspheming the Holy Faith of the Apostles by innovating with heretics?  You claim that we are the ones who hate Christ yet you are the ones who have persecuted us because we pray for you.  Is this what Christ Taught and Teaches in your church?  You ecumenists on one day say things like "where two or three people meet in [Christ's] Name there [Christ] is also" but then say our baptisms and our chrismations are invalid the next simply because we don't agree with you. 

Call me a schismatic all you want, I'd much rather be a schismatic than someone who worships your version of Christ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUtMJwlbx1Q

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« Reply #50 on: January 29, 2013, 08:39:12 PM »

In my experience, you see the most hurtful and often blasphemous statements throughout all these forums. Some threads are pretty good but the reality is "Orthodox" forums hurt the Church much more then they help. It becomes a temple of gossip and very often hateful statements. I have deleted really every one I have joined because the obvious. It is a sad state of affairs when you have untrained and often very passionate people representing the Church. I don't pretend to be qualified even with my theological degree and growing up serving next to my father, who is a priest but you have multitudes who don't mind at all. It is a sad state of affairs. It's just much more helpful for inquirers to go a Church and speak to a priest rather then get involved with these places.

And it is true. Meletius IV (Metaxakis) did a lot of damage to the Church.
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« Reply #51 on: January 29, 2013, 10:01:45 PM »

I've met Greek Old Calendarists in real life and former Greek Old Calendarists who've returned to the faith of the Apostles.

Honestly, I wouldn't want to talk to or meet the Greek Old Calendarists on this forum. I also don't care if the host of this site is one, this site could shut down and I wouldn't care.

Greek Old Calendarists are schismatics, they are uncanonical and they are apostates because they've abandoned the church.

And don't give me that stupid bull about that so-called "miracle" that was supposedly in support of the schismatics.

The idea that the New Calendar is an innovation or that our Bishops of Ecumenism is an idea that shows one to be dumber than a rock and is an idea that is not even worth a passing thought.
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« Reply #52 on: January 29, 2013, 10:07:17 PM »

Getting yourself worked into a dogmatic frenzy again, Devin? Since when did your opinions become the norm of what is Orthodox?
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« Reply #53 on: January 29, 2013, 10:42:04 PM »

Getting yourself worked into a dogmatic frenzy again, Devin? Since when did your opinions become the norm of what is Orthodox?

Since when did you not learn what your own Church says about schismatics like the Old Calendarists?

Hopefully in another 100 years, the Greek Old Calendarists will just be a tiny, dying minority of maybe 1,000 people without any real Bishops or Priests to support them.
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« Reply #54 on: January 29, 2013, 11:00:59 PM »

I've met Greek Old Calendarists in real life and former Greek Old Calendarists who've returned to the faith of the Apostles.
And I've met many who came to the True Faith of the Apostles from the world "orthodox" church

Honestly, I wouldn't want to talk to or meet the Greek Old Calendarists on this forum. I also don't care if the host of this site is one, this site could shut down and I wouldn't care.
How Christian of you

Greek Old Calendarists are schismatics, they are uncanonical and they are apostates because they've abandoned the church.
freemason Metaxakis is the schismatic who abandoned God in exchange for his vision of a one world religion, he prayed with Anglicans, Catholics, even many non-Christians and not because of the request of a personal friend, but because he wanted the Masonic one world religion, if ones bishop is a heretic than one is also a heretic.

And don't give me that stupid bull about that so-called "miracle" that was supposedly in support of the schismatics.
The "orthodox" government of Greece decided to "get rid of" the "schismatics" and sent police officers to a prayer service in honor of the Elevation of the Holy Cross to arrest and prosecute us (many since, have been killed) and on the night, all of them witnessed this miracle and many of the officers converted that night, is this some satanic optical illusion?

The idea that the New Calendar is an innovation or that our Bishops of Ecumenism is an idea that shows one to be dumber than a rock and is an idea that is not even worth a passing thought.
Where is your evidence that the new calendar is not an innovation?  Secondly, where is your evidence that the so-called "orthodox" church is not involved in the ecumenist pan-heresy?
Shalom, and may Jesus Bless you
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« Reply #55 on: January 30, 2013, 01:39:11 AM »

If ones bishop is a heretic then one is also a heretic? I don't know what churches ecclesiology that is, but that certainly isn't Orthodox ecclesiology.

Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Protestants and Catholics all have "miracles", nothing makes the Greek Old Calendarist's "miracle" any more real or special than theirs.

We've got the Holy Fire, and many other wonders.

You're the idiots that have to prove were wrong and you've all failed to do so. You'd rather sit around in a schismatic LANGUAGE REMOVED declaring us as innovators and ecumenists. As far as Im concerned, y'all can stay in your little language removed for content by username! sectiom moderator and stay outside of the true Church. We have enough extreme-conservative idiots as it is.
 You are placed on moderation for 99 days for repeatedly disrespecting other Forum members and for using obscene imagery. If you wish to dispute this, please make sure that you PM me first before going up the chain. Thanks, Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #56 on: January 30, 2013, 04:04:35 AM »

Thread locked pending review by this section's moderator
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« Reply #57 on: January 31, 2013, 01:26:12 PM »

Thread is now unlocked. Carl Kraeff
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« Reply #58 on: January 31, 2013, 01:52:21 PM »

if ones bishop is a heretic than one is also a heretic.

The only thing I know about my bishop (who is a locum tenans based out of somewhere else) is his name. If I was to find out he was a heretic (and I don’t believe he is and have no reason to worry based on the local presbyters), it would be because I actively went out looking for trouble. The church I attend is fairly “traditional” in that sort of American reconstructed Slavic sense of traditional, and I see no reason to doubt that what we have is the Orthodox faith. We don’t commune non-Orthodox; we don’t host prayer breakfasts with Catholics; none of us are masons or members of whatever nonsense association it is that supposedly invalidates the Mysteries. I will worry about my own salvation. I will worry that when we are able to make it to church my kids are too disruptive. But I will not worry about some false boogyman called “ecumenism” when I see no reason to. I know not because I ask not, and I ask not because I don’t need to know. My salvation, should I receive it, depends on Christ, not an old man in a round hat in the Northeast.
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« Reply #59 on: January 31, 2013, 11:24:43 PM »

Canon 15 of the First-and-Second Council in Constantinople under St. Photios:
Quote
"For those who separate from communion with their president because of some heresy condemned by the holy councils or fathers, when, that is, he preaches heresy to the whole people, and teaches it openly in the church, if such wall themselves off from communion with the above-mentioned bishop before conciliar examination not only are not subject to the penalty laid down by the canons, but are also worthy of the honour befitting the Orthodox. For they have condemned, not bishops, but false-bishops and false-teachers, and they have not sundered the unity of the Church by a schism, but have endeavoured to protect the Church from schisms and divisions."
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« Reply #60 on: January 31, 2013, 11:28:16 PM »

Canon 15 of the First-and-Second Council in Constantinople under St. Photios:
Quote
"For those who separate from communion with their president because of some heresy condemned by the holy councils or fathers, when, that is, he preaches heresy to the whole people, and teaches it openly in the church, if such wall themselves off from communion with the above-mentioned bishop before conciliar examination not only are not subject to the penalty laid down by the canons, but are also worthy of the honour befitting the Orthodox. For they have condemned, not bishops, but false-bishops and false-teachers, and they have not sundered the unity of the Church by a schism, but have endeavoured to protect the Church from schisms and divisions."

But does that support the traditionalists or world Orthodoxy? I believe an argument can be made either way...
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« Reply #61 on: February 01, 2013, 12:42:21 AM »

Canon 15 of the First-and-Second Council in Constantinople under St. Photios:
Quote
"For those who separate from communion with their president because of some heresy condemned by the holy councils or fathers, when, that is, he preaches heresy to the whole people, and teaches it openly in the church, if such wall themselves off from communion with the above-mentioned bishop before conciliar examination not only are not subject to the penalty laid down by the canons, but are also worthy of the honour befitting the Orthodox. For they have condemned, not bishops, but false-bishops and false-teachers, and they have not sundered the unity of the Church by a schism, but have endeavoured to protect the Church from schisms and divisions."

But does that support the traditionalists or world Orthodoxy? I believe an argument can be made either way...
I see your point but I think it's pretty clearly against world orthodoxy.  I mean, while an argument *could* be made [logically] for either side I think its pretty clear saying that if a bishop preaches an unGodly doctrine than we have the right to schism until the Church deposes the bishop, declares him anathema, and then repents.  Just for the sake of argument I think the real question is, was our schism justified.  IMO if the heresy of heresies was not a justification, I don't know what is.
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« Reply #62 on: February 01, 2013, 12:56:50 AM »

But was ecumenism a "heresy condemned by the holy councils or fathers"? You could argue that certain figures (St. Justin Popovich, etc.) condemned it, that certain Local groups condemned it (1983 anathema of ROCOR), that certain figures supported the old calendarists (St. Nikolai of Serbia), and so forth. But doesn't all this come long after the initial break which is supposed to be the schism? Even if you count Met. Chrysostomos of Florina as a "father" (which I think is a stretch, at best), he and the other bishops didn't break with the state Church until over a decade after the schism was supposed to have happened. I think you could argue that no holy fathers or councils had condemned ecumenism at the point that the old calendar movement started. Perhaps I would not go as far as the synod of Met. Cyprian and say that a council (pan-Orthodox or even ecumenical) was needed to condemn it before the "potential schismatics" because actual ones, but still, I think it's pushing it to argue for traditionalism using the 15th canon of the 1st-2nd.

I also don't think it does much good to appeal to this canon as it relates to the calendar, as a calendar change (especially regarding Pascha) was forbidden, but I'm not sure that you could persuasively argue that this rises to the level of heresy. Admittedly, if memory serves, there did seem to be some calendar issues in the early Church that seemed to be dealt with as a heresy (quartodecimans?), but I'm not sure that that's the case here*. The best route that I can see is demonstrating that the Fathers and/or Councils condemned the pan-heresy (or "heresy of heresies") of ecumenism, but I don't know what kind of case can be made for that (and I've read the various materials--translated/published in English, anyway). Perhaps I am protesting too much, or perhaps I am rambling; I just remain unconvinced.


*I'm leaving aside the sticky issue of Finland, and possibly other local groups and their changes.
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« Reply #63 on: February 01, 2013, 06:50:04 PM »

But was ecumenism a "heresy condemned by the holy councils or fathers"? You could argue that certain figures (St. Justin Popovich, etc.) condemned it, that certain Local groups condemned it (1983 anathema of ROCOR), that certain figures supported the old calendarists (St. Nikolai of Serbia), and so forth. But doesn't all this come long after the initial break which is supposed to be the schism? Even if you count Met. Chrysostomos of Florina as a "father" (which I think is a stretch, at best), he and the other bishops didn't break with the state Church until over a decade after the schism was supposed to have happened. I think you could argue that no holy fathers or councils had condemned ecumenism at the point that the old calendar movement started. Perhaps I would not go as far as the synod of Met. Cyprian and say that a council (pan-Orthodox or even ecumenical) was needed to condemn it before the "potential schismatics" because actual ones, but still, I think it's pushing it to argue for traditionalism using the 15th canon of the 1st-2nd.

I also don't think it does much good to appeal to this canon as it relates to the calendar, as a calendar change (especially regarding Pascha) was forbidden, but I'm not sure that you could persuasively argue that this rises to the level of heresy. Admittedly, if memory serves, there did seem to be some calendar issues in the early Church that seemed to be dealt with as a heresy (quartodecimans?), but I'm not sure that that's the case here*. The best route that I can see is demonstrating that the Fathers and/or Councils condemned the pan-heresy (or "heresy of heresies") of ecumenism, but I don't know what kind of case can be made for that (and I've read the various materials--translated/published in English, anyway). Perhaps I am protesting too much, or perhaps I am rambling; I just remain unconvinced.


*I'm leaving aside the sticky issue of Finland, and possibly other local groups and their changes.
Canon 45 of the Apostles
Quote
If any clergymen, or laymen, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated.
Not only was Patriarch Metaxakis involved with ecumenism but he was also a Freemason supported by other Freemasons.  They have their own god (whom they call, "the great architect"), their own scriptures, their own rituals, even their own priests.  He was clearly not a Christian, and the rest of the church at the time failed to do their job.  But Christ promised that the gates of Hell would not prevail, and they didn't, Orthodoxy still exists which in-and-of itself is a miracle.

God Bless you.  I'm not trying to be polemical, there really isn't another way to say that.

You are given seven-day warning for failing to use a title for a clergyman. I put in the correct title  for you. PLease do not repeat this violation of our rules. Thanks, Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #64 on: February 03, 2013, 06:00:24 PM »

But was ecumenism a "heresy condemned by the holy councils or fathers"? You could argue that certain figures (St. Justin Popovich, etc.) condemned it, that certain Local groups condemned it (1983 anathema of ROCOR), that certain figures supported the old calendarists (St. Nikolai of Serbia), and so forth. But doesn't all this come long after the initial break which is supposed to be the schism? Even if you count Met. Chrysostomos of Florina as a "father" (which I think is a stretch, at best), he and the other bishops didn't break with the state Church until over a decade after the schism was supposed to have happened. I think you could argue that no holy fathers or councils had condemned ecumenism at the point that the old calendar movement started. Perhaps I would not go as far as the synod of Met. Cyprian and say that a council (pan-Orthodox or even ecumenical) was needed to condemn it before the "potential schismatics" because actual ones, but still, I think it's pushing it to argue for traditionalism using the 15th canon of the 1st-2nd.

I also don't think it does much good to appeal to this canon as it relates to the calendar, as a calendar change (especially regarding Pascha) was forbidden, but I'm not sure that you could persuasively argue that this rises to the level of heresy. Admittedly, if memory serves, there did seem to be some calendar issues in the early Church that seemed to be dealt with as a heresy (quartodecimans?), but I'm not sure that that's the case here*. The best route that I can see is demonstrating that the Fathers and/or Councils condemned the pan-heresy (or "heresy of heresies") of ecumenism, but I don't know what kind of case can be made for that (and I've read the various materials--translated/published in English, anyway). Perhaps I am protesting too much, or perhaps I am rambling; I just remain unconvinced.


*I'm leaving aside the sticky issue of Finland, and possibly other local groups and their changes.
Canon 45 of the Apostles
Quote
If any clergymen, or laymen, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated.
Not only was Metaxakis involved with ecumenism but he was also a Freemason supported by other Freemasons.  They have their own god (whom they call, "the great architect"), their own scriptures, their own rituals, even their own priests.  He was clearly not a Christian, and the rest of the church at the time failed to do their job.  But Christ promised that the gates of Hell would not prevail, and they didn't, Orthodoxy still exists which in-and-of itself is a miracle.

God Bless you.  I'm not trying to be polemical, there really isn't another way to say that.

Are you referring to Patriarch Meletios IV (Metaxakis) of Constantinople? Please note that this is an official question and I would appreciate a prompt reply. Thanks, Carl Kraeff
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« Reply #65 on: February 03, 2013, 06:48:35 PM »

Are you referring to Patriarch Meletios IV (Metaxakis) of Constantinople?
yes
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« Reply #66 on: February 03, 2013, 06:49:58 PM »

yes

They're sticklers about proper/given titles around these parts. angel
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« Reply #67 on: February 04, 2013, 01:25:55 AM »

I would prefer the church and state not to be aligned, not to be funded by the government, but I don't agree with a tax of Orthodox Christians, thats rediculous.
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« Reply #68 on: February 04, 2013, 03:16:47 PM »

Not only was Patriarch Metaxakis involved with ecumenism but he was also a Freemason supported by other Freemasons.  They have their own god (whom they call, "the great architect"), their own scriptures, their own rituals, even their own priests.  He was clearly not a Christian, and the rest of the church at the time failed to do their job.  
Not that this would make me change my Orthodox alignment, but I have oft seen this particular accusation bandied about without ever a citation or even photo to back it up.

Considering the nature of the charge, you'd think the polemicists would be more than forthcoming with the evidence.
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« Reply #69 on: February 08, 2013, 05:56:05 PM »

Not only was Patriarch Metaxakis involved with ecumenism but he was also a Freemason supported by other Freemasons.  They have their own god (whom they call, "the great architect"), their own scriptures, their own rituals, even their own priests.  He was clearly not a Christian, and the rest of the church at the time failed to do their job.  
Not that this would make me change my Orthodox alignment, but I have oft seen this particular accusation bandied about without ever a citation or even photo to back it up.

Considering the nature of the charge, you'd think the polemicists would be more than forthcoming with the evidence.


the Greek Masonic Lodge claim they have evidence (papers signed by him) that he was a member.
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« Reply #70 on: February 15, 2013, 09:01:24 AM »

Not only was Patriarch Metaxakis involved with ecumenism but he was also a Freemason supported by other Freemasons.  They have their own god (whom they call, "the great architect"), their own scriptures, their own rituals, even their own priests.  He was clearly not a Christian, and the rest of the church at the time failed to do their job.  
Not that this would make me change my Orthodox alignment, but I have oft seen this particular accusation bandied about without ever a citation or even photo to back it up.

Considering the nature of the charge, you'd think the polemicists would be more than forthcoming with the evidence.


the Greek Masonic Lodge claim they have evidence (papers signed by him) that he was a member.
Funny thing about Masons is that they will claim anyone of historic significance as their own.

I am not interested in claims.

I am not saying the patriarch wasn't ultimately  a mason (like I said, it's not going to change my alignment), but I haven't seen any evidence he was.
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« Reply #71 on: February 15, 2013, 10:45:16 AM »

Not only was Patriarch Metaxakis involved with ecumenism but he was also a Freemason supported by other Freemasons.  They have their own god (whom they call, "the great architect"), their own scriptures, their own rituals, even their own priests.  He was clearly not a Christian, and the rest of the church at the time failed to do their job.  
Not that this would make me change my Orthodox alignment, but I have oft seen this particular accusation bandied about without ever a citation or even photo to back it up.

Considering the nature of the charge, you'd think the polemicists would be more than forthcoming with the evidence.


the Greek Masonic Lodge claim they have evidence (papers signed by him) that he was a member.

Masons also claim Pythagoras, Shakespeare, and pretty much anyone who did anything remotely interesting.
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