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Author Topic: John the Baptist, Jesus.  (Read 379 times) Average Rating: 0
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Virtual Paradise
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« on: April 10, 2013, 03:20:46 PM »

Was John the Baptist a priest ? He descended from a priestly family. But was he a priest? Was he appointed as a priest? Did he posses any authority from any office within the mosaic religion? Was any authority passed from St John the Baptist to Jesus when he baptised Jesus? Why did Jesus say when St. John the Baptist told him than he should be baptised by Jesus that they "should fulfil all righteousness" . What does it mean "priest after the order of Mechilzedek" ?
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Yeshua HaDerekh
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« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2013, 04:49:19 PM »

Was John the Baptist a priest ? He descended from a priestly family. But was he a priest? Was he appointed as a priest? Did he posses any authority from any office within the mosaic religion? Was any authority passed from St John the Baptist to Jesus when he baptised Jesus? Why did Jesus say when St. John the Baptist told him than he should be baptised by Jesus that they "should fulfil all righteousness" . What does it mean "priest after the order of Mechilzedek" ?

Yeshua (Jesus) and John were cousins born 6 months apart. John was born at Passover when the Jewish people expected Elijiah to come before the Messiah. He was the "Forerunner". Yeshua was born in the fall during the Feast of Tabernacles (He dwelt or tented/tabernacled among us as in John 1:14).  Yeshua was circumsized on the 8th day as per The Law. John was born a Nazarite, the same as Samson.  He could not drink or cut his hair.  Yeshua came eating and drinking, but they did not believe Him either. John was a Levite. John's father was a Priest in the Temple.  Melekzadek is a two word term in Hebrew. Melekh is King and Zadek is a righteous person. So a Righteous King...both Priest and King...which is what Yeshua is. He is our High Priest and King.
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« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2013, 02:10:50 PM »

No one else?
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Romaios
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« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2013, 02:23:35 PM »

No one else?

Well, there would have been HM King Cioabă - he used to be βασιλεὺς καὶ ἱερεύς (pentecostal pastor, that is), but as of late he gave up his title in order to be elected president of the new worldwide Gipsy republic.

« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 02:38:30 PM by Romaios » Logged
Virtual Paradise
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« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2013, 04:52:33 PM »

Be serious please.
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Benjamin the Red
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« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2013, 05:35:59 PM »

Was John the Baptist a priest?

Yes. He was of the Levitical line.

He descended from a priestly family. But was he a priest?

Yes. To be descended from the tribe of Levi is to be a priest.

Was he appointed as a priest?

There was no "appointment" or "ordination", either you were born a priest or not.

Did he posses any authority from any office within the mosaic religion?

Yes, he was a Levite priest.

Was any authority passed from St John the Baptist to Jesus when he baptised Jesus?

No. St. John even recognized this himself, and openly declared Himself unworthy to even loose Jesus' sandals, much less baptize him. John, rather, asked Christ to baptize him!

Why did Jesus say when St. John the Baptist told him than he should be baptised by Jesus that they "should fulfil all righteousness" .

It is through Christ's baptism that we all are baptized. It is His baptism in the Jordan that blesses and sanctifies baptism, turning it from the michvah tradition of Judaism into the rite of initiation of Christianity and giving the sacrament the power to forgive our sins.

For more on this and the previous one, read the Church's hymns for Vespers, Matins and the Royal Hours on the Feast of the Theophany

What does it mean "priest after the order of Mechilzedek"?

This is a complex idea. If you have not, begin by slowly and carefully reading the Epistle to the Hebrews in the New Testament.
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"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
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« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2013, 05:48:06 PM »

Was John the Baptist a priest?

Yes. He was of the Levitical line.

He descended from a priestly family. But was he a priest?

Yes. To be descended from the tribe of Levi is to be a priest.

Was he appointed as a priest?

There was no "appointment" or "ordination", either you were born a priest or not.

Did he posses any authority from any office within the mosaic religion?

Yes, he was a Levite priest.

Was any authority passed from St John the Baptist to Jesus when he baptised Jesus?

No. St. John even recognized this himself, and openly declared Himself unworthy to even loose Jesus' sandals, much less baptize him. John, rather, asked Christ to baptize him!

Why did Jesus say when St. John the Baptist told him than he should be baptised by Jesus that they "should fulfil all righteousness" .

It is through Christ's baptism that we all are baptized. It is His baptism in the Jordan that blesses and sanctifies baptism, turning it from the michvah tradition of Judaism into the rite of initiation of Christianity and giving the sacrament the power to forgive our sins.

For more on this and the previous one, read the Church's hymns for Vespers, Matins and the Royal Hours on the Feast of the Theophany

What does it mean "priest after the order of Mechilzedek"?

This is a complex idea. If you have not, begin by slowly and carefully reading the Epistle to the Hebrews in the New Testament.

On what scholastic authority do u base your answer that the priesthood was not ordained? And as far as I know the priesthood was Aaronic and not Levitical. Not all Levites come through Aaron.
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« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2013, 07:41:01 PM »

On what scholastic authority do u base your answer that the priesthood was not ordained? And as far as I know the priesthood was Aaronic and not Levitical. Not all Levites come through Aaron.

The High Priesthood was Aaronic. The descendant of Aaron were to serve as the High Priest. However, the other priests were Levitical, but not Aaronic.

My "scholastic authority" is the Torah. It's quite plainly described, in detail.
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« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2013, 06:24:18 AM »

On what scholastic authority do u base your answer that the priesthood was not ordained? And as far as I know the priesthood was Aaronic and not Levitical. Not all Levites come through Aaron.

The High Priesthood was Aaronic. The descendant of Aaron were to serve as the High Priest. However, the other priests were Levitical, but not Aaronic.

My "scholastic authority" is the Torah. It's quite plainly described, in detail.

Funny because the Torah(Pentateuch-First five books of the Bible) speaks of Aaron being appointed through a ritual along side with the other levites that were to serve the Tabernacle. If any it contradicts your position. Also the "Hebrews" speak of "semikhah" . In Judaism there is a ritual of ordination(semikhah) also.

"Kohen (or Kohain; Hebrew: כֹּהֵן, "priest", pl. כֹּהֲנִים Kohanim) is the Hebrew word for priest. Jewish Kohanim are traditionally believed and halachically required to be of direct patrilineal descent from the Biblical Aaron."

"In a broader sense, since Aaron was a descendant of the Tribe of Levi, priests are sometimes included in the term Levites, by direct patrilineal descent. However, not all Levites are priests.
When the Temple existed, most sacrifices and offerings could only be conducted by priests. Non-priest Levites (i.e. all those who descended from Levi, the son of Jacob, but not from Aaron) performed a variety of other Temple roles, including ritual slaughter of animals, song service by use of voice and musical instruments, and various tasks in assisting the priests in performing their service."

The question is, were the Aaronic priests ordained on the time of John the Baptist? Was John the Baptist an ordained priest? Was the Aaronic priesthood up to ordination? Exod 30:30 say annoint Aaron and his sons and consecrate them.

Was any authority passed from St John the Baptist to Jesus? I heard it say that St John the Baptist transferred his priesthood to Jesus, or something like that.. How come was Jesus able to preach in the synagogue, and was seen as a Rabbi? According to modern Judaism Rabbi's were to be ordained through the laying of hands. Was St John the Baptist a Rabbi himself? Did he appointed Jesus as a Rabbi?


What is the priesthood of Mechilzedek?

P.S I read the whole Bible including the book of Hebrews multiple times. As a pointer for Benjamin the Red.

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« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2013, 04:47:19 PM »

Funny because the Torah(Pentateuch-First five books of the Bible) speaks of Aaron being appointed through a ritual along side with the other levites that were to serve the Tabernacle. If any it contradicts your position. Also the "Hebrews" speak of "semikhah" . In Judaism there is a ritual of ordination(semikhah) also.

Yes, there is the initial ordination of Aaron and the other Levites initially. After this, it is traced through their lines, as I said. Whether or not there is a particular "ordination" rite for those descendants that would be performed at a particular time, I'm unsure. Regardless, they become priests by virtue of their lineage. No contradiction.

Funny, because the book of Hebrews is in Greek. It may have initially been in Hebrew or Aramiac, but to my knowledge there are no extant manuscripts.

"Kohen (or Kohain; Hebrew: כֹּהֵן, "priest", pl. כֹּהֲנִים Kohanim) is the Hebrew word for priest. Jewish Kohanim are traditionally believed and halachically required to be of direct patrilineal descent from the Biblical Aaron."

The modern Kohenim may or may not be directly from Aaron. I don't know nor care, as that current tradition is post-Christian. It isn't pertinent.

"In a broader sense, since Aaron was a descendant of the Tribe of Levi, priests are sometimes included in the term Levites, by direct patrilineal descent. However, not all Levites are priests.

When the Temple existed, most sacrifices and offerings could only be conducted by priests. Non-priest Levites (i.e. all those who descended from Levi, the son of Jacob, but not from Aaron) performed a variety of other Temple roles, including ritual slaughter of animals, song service by use of voice and musical instruments, and various tasks in assisting the priests in performing their service."

You just "contradicted" yourself in this above by mentioning that others were ordained to serve alongside Aaron. Make up my mind, please.

The question is, were the Aaronic priests ordained on the time of John the Baptist? Was John the Baptist an ordained priest? Was the Aaronic priesthood up to ordination? Exod 30:30 say annoint Aaron and his sons and consecrate them.

Actually, the High Priest was no longer Aaronic at the time of Christ. King David appointed a man named Zadoch as High Priest in the Temple, and those descendants of Zadoch (the "Sadducees") were the priestly caste in the time of Christ.

Was any authority passed from St John the Baptist to Jesus? I heard it say that St John the Baptist transferred his priesthood to Jesus, or something like that.. How come was Jesus able to preach in the synagogue, and was seen as a Rabbi? According to modern Judaism Rabbi's were to be ordained through the laying of hands. Was St John the Baptist a Rabbi himself? Did he appointed Jesus as a Rabbi?

What is the priesthood of Mechilzedek?

P.S I read the whole Bible including the book of Hebrews multiple times. As a pointer for Benjamin the Red.

Then you've heard wrong, from someone who lacks and Orthodox understanding. The book of Hebrews, which you say you've read, makes a clear argument that the Levitical priesthood was inadequate, and that Christ's priesthood is superior, by being the "priesthood of Melchizidek." For more on that, read (or "re-read") Abraham's encounter with Melchizidek and the arguments put forth in the book of Hebrews about Christ's priesthood.

Rabbis need not be from a priestly caste. That's actually what makes them rabbis most of the time, being learned Jewish men that aren't priests. Rabbis come from any tribe, and still do today in modern Judaism. The Pharisees were a particular class of rabbis, but not priests. Those were the Sadducees. As "rabbi" simply means teacher, I'd imagine that such an "ordination" of a rabbi, as occurs today, had not yet formed, and any who presumed to teach and gathered a following became considered a rabbi, at least by their followers. I imagine this is similar to the Orthodox use of the term "Elder" (e.g., "Geronda", "Startez") today.
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"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
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