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Author Topic: Faith and Reason in the Orthodox Church  (Read 8746 times) Average Rating: 0
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Matthew777
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« on: January 08, 2005, 07:12:12 PM »

Due to the grudual evolution of this thread, I have changed the topic to the relationship between faith and reason in the Orthodox Church.

I just have a few questions:

What is the Orthodox definition of faith?

When faith and reason are in seeming conflict, does faith always trump reason?

Do we believe in the Christian faith because it is a properly basic belief, such as the belief that the sun sets in the evening and rises in the morning, or do we use rational arguments to justify our faith?

Is the Orthodox Church more evidentialistic or more fedeistic in its thinking?

Do we believe based on infallible proofs or is our faith itself the evidence of things unseen?

I hope this discussion will go well, I've been struggling with this a lot lately.

May peace be upon thee and with thy spirit.

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« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2005, 07:51:48 PM »

If He is such a monster as what you've described, I have nothing to lose by believing the lie that He loves me. Whether I hated Him or whether I loved Him, I would still be damned to eternal suffering.

If, however, He's as good as His Word (pun fully intended), I have everything to lose by not believing Him. He's gone to extravagant lengths to have me believe that He loves me, and I have no way to prove otherwise. So I go with the best (and probable) odds.

Call it Pascal's Wager with a twist.

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« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2005, 09:06:55 PM »


Call it Pascal's Wager with a twist.


Pascal's Wager is one solution I have thought of to solve this dilemma I have raised.
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« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2005, 05:27:24 PM »

Dear Pedro,

If you hadn't beat me to it, I would've replied with the same answer you gave.  Nice! 
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« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2005, 12:48:34 AM »

The danger for Orthodox Christians today is the free media. Their is so many things out there that causes side-track thinking. I do not imply that it is anyones intention to be side-track minded.

WE have to be careful to avoid reading strange books and magazines and listening to strange preachers.

Curiousity killed the cat some one said.

If we spend good amounts of time in prayer, fasting, meditation and reading the teachings of our Church fathers we have a good chance of avoiding such questions.

Most important we must try to keep our lives ORTHODOX. The people we spend time with the most are usually the ones that will have the greatest affect on our thinking. A girl friend or a close buddy may be the root cause for causing doubt and improper thoughts that lead to vivid imaginations and playful discourses which lack spiritual strength.

We have to struggle in this life if we are going to follow Christ. Being Orthodox in the Lord is even harder. Orthodoxy is a difficult path to stay on.

Let us enjoy the privileges of open communication and fellowship but use it to strengthen each other to be more and have more in communion with the Saints; since the Saints praise God without ceasing day and night saying "Holy, Holy, Holy Christ all mighty thou art the prince of peace, the way and the life .... for Thou art God".

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« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2005, 02:52:49 AM »

The people we spend time with the most are usually the ones that will have the greatest affect on our thinking.

Jesus dined with prostitutes and tax collectors.
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« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2005, 04:35:17 AM »



Jesus dined with prostitutes and tax collectors.

True; and His goal was to have a positive impact on them; they certainly had no negative influence on Him.  I am new to Orthodoxy, and before finding the Church, I had an entire lifetime of "bad input".  Now I have the incredible opportunity to spend time learning Truth, and spending time with people that teach me and encourage me in my journey.  We need to be strong enough to be a help to others, but if association with unbelievers causes us spiritual harm, then it is time to pull back.  Certainly taking the message of Truth to others is our responsibility, but only when we are spiritually strong enough, and prepared. Jesus spent His life preparing for his earthly ministry, by study, prayer, and fasting.  After St. Paul's encounter on the road to Damascus, he studied extensively, and submitted to Church authority before beginning his evangelism.
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« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2005, 09:03:26 AM »

Matthew,

Your idea is one that probably a lot of people have had, and all of us have probably had likeminded thoughts at some point... but one should remember that how we know Christ and how we know that God loves us utterly beyond our comprehension is not through rational arguments or logical deduction but through the revelation of the Holy Spirit. And we don't "feel" that 100% of the time so Satan likes to plague us with thoughts either about God's non-existence or His evil nature when we don't "feel" that, but the minute that God actually reveals Himself to us we know, of course, that God *is* Love, and that we were silly to surrender to the coldness of the devil in the first place.

But where logic is concerned, I don't think a cruel God is logical.

In any case, God bless you...

Marjorie
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« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2005, 10:10:34 AM »

Quote
But where logic is concerned, I don't think a cruel God is logical.

Very nicely put, Marjorie. Smiley
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« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2005, 05:26:40 PM »

Matthew,

but one should remember that how we know Christ and how we know that God loves us utterly beyond our comprehension is not through rational arguments or logical deduction but through the revelation of the Holy Spirit.

But could that be God be fooling us?
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« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2005, 06:47:57 PM »

Maybe.

<refers to his post above>
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« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2005, 06:55:04 PM »

Well, Matthew, I can only say two things.

1. I don't know if you grew up pentecostal. If you did, I can understand your doubt.
2. Stop reading Schopenhauer. He's silly.
3. Pray and ask God. Who else are you going to trust, Satan?
4. If you've read it, don't forget what Tostoy describes in "A Confession." He says, "I can't figure this stuff out with reason so I'm going to kill myself." Then he says, "Gee, look at all these suffering peasants they're happy even though their lives really seem to stink. Must be God being good to them." Then he goes to church and says, "I can't figure out all this heebee jeebee they're talking about with reason. They must be wrong after all."

Well, that was more than two, but you get my point.

You can make up all kinds of silly questions that don't have answers. You can end up hating God, denying God's existence, or a combination of both.

I can tell you this, when I held my daughter's lifeless body in my arms, I stopped doubting. I stopped being afraid of God and I started to have faith. You can play with these silly notions that are planted in you by the Evil One and you will never be satisfied.  

Fast for a while. Pray even longer. "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil."
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« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2005, 07:00:50 PM »

Maybe.

<refers to his post above>

I appreciated your response. I just want people to question things sometimes. As Descartes said, we will never know anything without first doubting everything.
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« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2005, 07:11:44 PM »

One more quick thing,

If it were a cruel joke, God could be having a lot more "fun" with us. Why comfort me in my time of sorrow? To make me happy before a fall into some sort of nothingness? Is it cruel to let is live our lives in hope or to heal us when we're sick?

The only cruelty I've ever seen is when people start listening to that little voice in their head saying, "Come on, you've figured it out and everybody else is a sucker." These folks then go out to serve themselves and ignore what it will do to others. Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die. Don't worry about the sick, the poor, the homeless, etc. They say, "Hey, let's get rid of these people. They're in the way of our fun."

If you listen to that voice the only sucker will be you.

God wouldn't have to be cruel, he'd have to be a very consistent schizo. Go to church and pray. Go and do the things Christ commanded us to do. Experience the True God. Then answer your own question.

Okay, that wasn't one thing and it wasn't quick. Oh well.
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« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2005, 07:12:09 PM »

Yes.  Descartes was wrong about a lot of things.
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« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2005, 07:21:02 PM »

Yes. Descartes was wrong about a lot of things.

One will not know without having evidence and one will not find evidence without first questioning.
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« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2005, 07:23:36 PM »



God wouldn't have to be cruel, he'd have to be a very consistent schizo. Go to church and pray. Go and do the things Christ commanded us to do. Experience the True God. Then answer your own question.



I have faith in Christ and I worship Him in the Divine Liturgy with all my heart and voice. (which causes some to complain that i sing to loudly and others to compliment my singing).
The reason why I believe that God is a loving God is that I experience Him.
And even if He were somehow cruel, I should still love and worship Him for creating me.
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« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2005, 06:44:36 AM »



One will not know without having evidence and one will not find evidence without first questioning.

Doesn't your own signature answer that question?

Marjorie
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« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2005, 10:02:39 PM »

What I am trying to get at is that the Christian faith is more than just adherence to the historicity of the Gospels.
Historicity alone does not prove that Jesus' suffering forgives our sins or that His resurrection saves us from death; that is ultimately a matter of faith and perhaps should remain a matter of faith.

If Christianity were nothing more than adherence to logical evidence then it would be no different from believing that 2+2=4.

In a way, we are all fideists and that is how I feel it is meant to be. (Fideism: Reliance on faith alone rather than scientific reasoning or philosophy in questions of religion.)

John 20:29 - Jesus said to him, "Thomas,[d] because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
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« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2005, 10:27:53 PM »

Well, I don't think anyone argued anything there. Faith is a matter of revelation and self-giving, not a logical deduction.

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« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2005, 10:33:52 PM »

Faith is a matter of revelation and self-giving, not a logical deduction.


That's true. And I think that the fact that we believe this is one of the things that make us different from Roman Catholicism.
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« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2005, 10:54:53 PM »

Yes, although in actual dogma the distinction might not be great, practically speaking Roman Catholicism has much more of a 'rational, logical' approach than one of Mystery.

Marjorie
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« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2005, 11:27:02 PM »

Yes, although in actual dogma the distinction might not be great, practically speaking Roman Catholicism has much more of a 'rational, logical' approach than one of Mystery.

Marjorie

Exactly. Just take the doctrine of transubstantiation, for example. It is so wrapped up in heady Greek philosophy that it is hard for many too accept so they reject the Eucharist entirely; while it would be much better to call it a mystery and leave it at that. Know what I mean?
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« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2005, 11:55:36 PM »

Faith is a matter of revelation and self-giving, not a logical deduction.

To quote Tertullian, "I believe because it is absurd".

John 20:29 - Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."



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« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2005, 12:48:30 AM »

Maybe humanity is just a big joke on Jesus.
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« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2005, 02:05:01 AM »

hahah!
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« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2005, 04:43:35 PM »

For the sake of debate, let us please consider the following points:

1. Christian theology teaches that men are saved by faith.

2. But, if the ultimate assertions of Christianity can be proven, either empirically or logically, faith becomes irrelevant.

3. Therefore, if Christian theology is true, no proof of its theological assertions is possible.

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« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2005, 05:51:29 PM »

To quote Tertullian, "I believe because it is absurd".

That's one of my favorite quotes; I posted about it http://www.livejournal.com/users/daphneisgood/59306.html <--- here a little before last year's Pascha.

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« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2005, 06:19:53 PM »



That's one of my favorite quotes; I posted about it http://www.livejournal.com/users/daphneisgood/59306.html <--- here a little before last year's Pascha.

Marjorie

excellent
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« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2005, 03:11:04 AM »

Given that faith cannot be proven by reason and neither is it meant to be; it would be the most reasonable decision for a Christian to admit to himself that its truth must be accepted by faith, than to "fool" himself that it must be "proven" by reason.

I know this all sounds absurd and if true, this makes religion itself "absurd" to be believed.

However, we must take the "leap of faith" because only in this "absurdity" can man find eternal security.

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« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2005, 03:42:29 AM »



That's one of my favorite quotes; I posted about it http://www.livejournal.com/users/daphneisgood/59306.html <--- here a little before last year's Pascha.

Marjorie

This is actually the full quote:

"The Son of God was crucified;
I am not ashamed of it.
And the Son of God died;
it is by all means to be believed,
because it is absurd.
And He was buried,
and He rose again;
the fact is certain,
because it is impossible.
But how will all this be true in Him,
if He was not Himself true--
if He really had not in Himself
that which might be crucified,
might die, might be buried,
and might rise again?"
Tertullian (145-220 A.D.)

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« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2005, 04:29:05 AM »

Quote
1. Christian theology teaches that men are saved by faith.

I thought that we are saved by grace...?

 Huh
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« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2005, 04:45:25 AM »



I thought that we are saved by grace...?

 Huh

We are saved by grace through faith.
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« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2005, 04:54:40 AM »

Quote
We are saved by grace through faith.

K, I thought so.  Smiley  I was just trying to see what you meant when you listed fiaht, instead of grace.

Now, saved by grace through faith, alone.... or?  Wink
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« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2005, 05:05:14 AM »


Now, saved by grace through faith, alone.... or? Wink

Faith without works is dead.

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« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2005, 05:07:54 AM »

Bingo!  :thumbsup: 
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« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2005, 05:18:54 AM »

The point of the argument is that we believe based on faith, not reason.
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« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2005, 01:47:13 AM »

Matthew my brother.

You should see your Priest on why you have these thoughts. Orthodox Christians are true believers . We do not dought anything. And WE NEVER question God.

Be careful and take heed to sound teachings which is the bases of our Orthodox belief.

I agree with Cizinec. You must fast and pray long and hard.

Are you aware that you can not take communion with having strange thoughts?
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« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2005, 01:56:32 AM »

Strange thoughts? Are we not to ask philosophical and theoligical questions?

In Philosophy of Religion class, we learn both sides to various theoligical questions and have to be able to understand and argue for either side.
Today we had a debate in class over Sigmund Freud's theory that the belief in God is based on a subconscious desire for a perfect father due to the imperfection of our own earthly fathers and I was assigned to argue on Freud's side. I did so with a better understanding of the subject matter than probably anyone else in the class.
I do not agree with Freud but I am at least willing to understand and even argue for his side for the pursuit of a greater knowledge of his and my own.
Should I not take communion for having taken this class?
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« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2005, 02:15:36 AM »

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You should see your Priest on why you have these thoughts. Orthodox Christians are true believers . We do not dought anything. And WE NEVER question God.

To be fair, doubt is a part of the journey to true faith. I do not believe there is anything wrong with feeling doubt, but the action to take as a result of doubt would be to pray about it and ask God to illuminate to you* why or how something is the way it is, and to do this in His own time, not yours, and of course to be obedient to the Church on the matter regardless of the doubt, knowing that God's Church teaches what is best for us (even if we can't see it), since God always wants what is best for us.

Edit: Please note, the "you" is a general "you," not aimed at any specific poster...these are just my universal conclusions on faith and doubt, based on my personal experience with the two.
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« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2005, 02:20:33 AM »

By acknowledging that it requires faith to believe the theology of Christianity, I have more faith; not less.
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« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2005, 05:24:05 PM »

Please compare/contrast Tertullian's idea of faith to Kierkegaard's fideism:

Fideism
Fideism is the view that faith and reason can have nothing to do with one another. On this view, faith involves a degree of certainty and personal commitment that precludes rational justification. We cannot, and should not, seek evidence for religious belief.

S++ren Kierkegaard thought that faith is characterised by absolute certainty and passionate personal commitment. He thought, because of this, that faith could never be supported by reason. He gave three arguments to show that this is the case: the approximation argument, the postponement argument, and the passion argument.

The Approximation Argument
Kierkegaard’s approximation argument appeals to the idea that arguments never prove things with absolute certainty. No matter what argument is advanced, it is always possible that the evidence has been misinterpreted, or that an error of reasoning has been committed. Faith, though, requires absolute certainty. As absolute certainty cannot be attained by rational argument, faith cannot be attained by rational argument. Faith, therefore, must always go beyond the evidence; it cannot be supported by reason.

The Postponement Argument
The postponement argument is similar to the approximation argument. It begins with the thought that all science is provisional. In science, there is always the possibility that new data will overthrow old conclusions. If we want to base certainty on a scientific-style investigation, then, then we will have to wait forever until all the data is in. We don't have forever, though; our lives are finite, death is inevitable. If we are to attain certainty, therefore, then we must choose it; certainty cannot be acquired from science.

The Passion Argument
Kierkegaard’s passion argument emphasises the personal commitment involved in faith. Faith involves risk; the more the better. If we had conclusive evidence for God’s existence, then belief in God would be unremarkable and uninteresting. It is only if our evidence is imperfect, if it involves risk, that it becomes valuable. Faith that goes against all of the available evidence is the riskiest faith of all, and so the most valuable. Because the better the evidence for God's existence, the less valuable faith is, certainty, as Kierkegaard put it, "lurks at the door of faith and threatens to devour it".
http://philosophyofreligion.info/fideism.html

Thank you.  I'm trying to gain a better understanding of fideism for my Philosophy of Religion class.

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« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2005, 12:37:50 AM »

Due to the grudual evolution of this thread, I have changed the topic to the relationship between faith and reason in the Orthodox Church.

I just have a few questions:

What is the Orthodox definition of faith?

When faith and reason are in seeming conflict, does faith always trump reason?

Do we believe in the Christian faith because it is a properly basic belief, such as the belief that the sun sets in the evening and rises in the morning, or do we use rational arguments to justify our faith?

Is the Orthodox Church more evidentialistic or more fideistic in its thinking?

Do we believe based on infallible proofs or is our faith itself the evidence of things unseen?

I hope this discussion will go well, I've been struggling with this a lot lately.

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« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2005, 01:01:38 AM »

I would suggest that the whole faith vs. reason dichotomy is itself a wrong approach. This is not a "faith is not in confict with reason" answer--far from it, I don't think we need to ask such questions in the first place. Just by asking the question we have gone astray, because the question is based on flawed premises. Orthodox epistemology is not based on a juggling of faith or reason, but rather based upon experience (ascesis!), and the cleansing of the nous. It is ascesis, our "efforts of faith, and labour of love" (1 Thes. 1:3), which is an "effort of faith with power" (2 Thes. 1:11), that makes us "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Pet. 1:4) and allows us to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12). It is in this context that the words of St. James must be understood: "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given to him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering." (James 1:5-6) The following is an excerpt from the essay The Theory of Knowledge of St. Isaac the Syrian, by Saint Justin Popovich, and might be of some help to you. It is from the book The Orthodox Faith and Life in Christ, which I would highly recommend to you not only for this essay, but also for (among other fine works) his essay Humanistic and Theanthropic Education, which delves into these issues from a slightly different perspective.


____________
It is by the ascesis of faith that the treatment and cure of a soul which is sick with the passions is begun. Once faith begins to live in a man, the passions begin to be uprooted from his soul. But "until the soul becomes intoxicated with faith in God, until it comes to feel faith's power," it can neither be healed of the passions nor overcome the material world. There is both a negative side to the ascesis of faith, freedom from sinful matter, and a positive side, oneness with God.

The soul, which was dispersed by the senses among the things of this world, is brought back to itself by the ascesis of faith, by fasting from material things and by devoting itself to a constant remembrance of God. This is the foundation of all good things. Freedom from enslavement to sinful matter is essential for advancement in the spiritual life. The beginning of this new way of life is found in the concentration of one's thoughts on God, in incessant pondering on the words of God, and in a life of poverty.

Through faith the mind, which was previously dispersed among the passions, is concentrated, freed from sensuality, and endowed with peace and humility of thought. When it lives by the senses in a sensual world, the mind is sick. With the help of faith, however, the mind is delivered from the prison of this world, where it has been stifled by sin, and enters into the new age, where it breathes in a wondrous new air. "The sleep of the mind" is as dangerous as death, and it is therefore essential to rouse the mind by faith to the performance of spiritual works, by which man will overcome himself and drive out the passions. "Drive out self, and the enemy will be driven from your side."

In the ascesis of faith, man is asked to act according to a paradox that denies understanding: "Be dead in your life, and you will live after death". By faith the mind is healed and acquires wisdom. The soul becomes wise when it stops "consorting shamelessly with promiscuous thoughts." "Love of the body is a sign of unbelief." Faith frees the intellect from the categories of the senses and sobers it by means of fasting, by pondering on God, and by vigils.

Intemperance and a full stomach cloud the mind, distract it, and disperse it among fantasies and passions. The knowledge of God cannot be found in a body that loves pleasure. It is from the seed of fasting that the blade of a healthy understanding grows--and it is from satiety that debauchery comes, and impurity from excess.

The thoughts and desires of the flesh are like a restless flame in a man, and the way to healing is to plunge the inellect into the ocean of the mysteries of Holy Scripture. Unless it is freed from earthly possessions, the soul cannot be freed from disturbing thoughts, nor feel peace of mind without dying to the senses. The passions darken the thoughts and blind the mind. Troubled, chaotic thoughts arise from an abuse of the stomach.

Shame and the fear of God steady the tumult of the mind; the lack of this shame and this fear disturb the balance of the understanding, making it fickle and unstable. The mind is only on a firm foundation if it keeps the Lord's commadnments and is ready to endure suffering and affliction. It is enslaved by the things of life, it is darkened. Collecting himself through faith, a man awakens his intellect towards God, and by prayerful silence cleanses his mind and overcomes the passions. The soul is restored to health by silence. It is therefore necessary to train oneself to silence--and this is a labor that brings sweetness to the heart. It is through silence that a man reaches peace from unwarranted thoughts.

Faith brings peace to the intellect and, in bringing it, uproots rebellious thoughts. Sin is the soruce of restlessness and strife in the thoughts and is also the source of man's struggle against heaven and with other men. "Be at peace with yourself, and you will bring peace to heaven and to earth." Until faith appears, the intellect is dispersed among the things of this world; it is by faith that this fragmentation of the intellect is overcome. The wandering of the thoughts is provoked by the demon of harlotry, as is the wandering of the eyes by the spirit of uncleanness.

By faith the intellect is confirmed in pondering God. The way of salvation is that of the constant rememberance of God. The intellect seperated from remembrance of God is like a fish out of water. The freedom of a true man consists in his freedom from the passions, in his resurrection with Christ, and in a joyous soul.

The passions can only be overcome by the practice of the virtues, and every passion must be fought to the death. Faith is the first and chief weapon in the struggle with the passions, for faith is the light of the mind that drives away the darkness of the passions and the strength of the intellect that banishes sickness from the soul. Faith bears within itself not only its own principle and substance, but the principle and substance of all the other virtues--developing as they do one from the other and encircling one another like the annual rings of a tree. If faith can be said to have a language, that language is prayer.


Source -- St. Justin Popovich (Trans. Asterios Gerostergios), Orthodox Faith and Life in Christ, (Institute For Byzantine And Modern Greek Studies, 1997), pp. 123-127
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« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2005, 01:06:17 AM »

Isn't human reason tainted by sin and therefore flawed?
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« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2005, 01:21:01 AM »

See above post.
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« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2005, 09:44:42 PM »

I've come to the understanding that arguments are of reason but faith is of the heart. One can be helped to be persuaded to believe through the exercise of reason, but the ultimate decision to believe is a matter of the heart.
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« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2005, 10:41:34 PM »

Christianity is a faith, not a philosophy. Definitions to an undifinable God can lead to much frustration. If we break it into a mere philosophy, we kill what the faith is. Ours is not a legalistic, rule infested, one step out of line and you're bleeped off the face of the earth religion. Ours is not just a set of supppsed theories tht possibly might work, but that we can choose to ignore and suffer no consequences. Ours is something to be believed with all you can and know it is the truth because your heart and soul longs for it. We believe that we are brought into being because God said so. We believe that we have the Ressuraction and Eternal Life becaus if what He did. We trust in what God says because time and time again, He has proven Himself, and His people have also in His name. We believe in love because God is Love. We know what he demands of us will lead us to theosis because of the fruit that was born of his statutes.

What God has revealed of Hismself is sufficent for us now. If he were to show his fullness to us, we would die (again, because He said so). That itself should be truth enough of His love. We live.

As for human logic being flawed, remember, God prefects us through our imperfections. Our grumbles can be changed into gold. But we must rely on Him and trust.


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« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2005, 11:54:42 PM »

Thank you for the responses.

There is one question I would like answered: Is the Orthodox Church more fideistic or evidentialistic in its thought?
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« Reply #49 on: January 26, 2005, 12:10:39 AM »

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Is the Orthodox Church more fideistic or evidentialistic in its thought?

Neither. Someday I'm gonna draw up a list of false dichotomies. That list will include:

Scripture vs. Tradition
Faith vs. Reason
Faith vs. works (Justification vs. Sanctification)
Spontaneous vs. Liturgical worship
Free-will vs. God's Sovereignty
Literal vs. alleglorical interpretation of scripture
Mystery vs. the pursuit of knowledge
mysticism vs. asceticism
monasticism vs. marriage (celibacy vs marriage)
God vs. man (regarding our ability to participate in the salvation of somoene else)

People are always opposing these things. Why? Scripture doesn't. Tradition doesn't. Not to the degree that people do today anyway. And if they do oppose them, it is not to base one's entire theology around the difference/distniction, but if it is touched upon it is only as a side note. An example of this is how the Church Fathers discussed God working at different times (dispensations) with different peoples in different ways; nowadays certain people create their entire theology around dispensationalism. I suppose I can add Faith vs. Evidence to that list, though it has some links with a few of the others.
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« Reply #50 on: January 26, 2005, 12:29:11 AM »

1Cr 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 
1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 
1Cr 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 
1Cr 1:20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 
1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 
1Cr 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 
1Cr 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 
1Cr 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 
1Cr 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 
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« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2005, 12:35:26 AM »

1Cr 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
etc etc etc


Please explain why you are quoting this.

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« Reply #52 on: January 26, 2005, 12:40:07 AM »

It is used rather often to explain the superiority of divine faith over human reason.

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« Reply #53 on: January 26, 2005, 01:05:05 AM »

Please Matthew, be more careful with yout terms and distinctions. (I know I need to be more careful myself!) "Evidence" (which is what you asked about) is not the same as "human reasoning," as your latest two posts imply. Evidence can be objectively true when it comes to theology; human reasoning is always open to inaccuracy. You did not ask about the human reasoning of Paradosis or Anastasios, rather you asked what the Orthodox Church--the theanthropic body of Christ--thought. And evidence can also be factually and objectively true when it is the Church weighing it (since Christ is the head, and the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth). Of course human reason is always flawed and faith is superior, * but your original post did not ask about human reasoning. What you did was try and put the concept of evidence against the concept of faith, asking which the Church was more like (or used more) in it's thought. If you had asked "Is the Orthodox Church more fideistic or more focused on human reason in its thought?" or if you had more precisely asked "Are Orthodox Christians more fideistic or more focused on human reasoning?" then I would of course have answered that faith trumps our own human reasoning. But that is not what you asked about. So, to sum up, in your original question (as you phrased it) you asked about 1)evidence and 2) the Church, but now you have changed terms midstream and are talking about 1) human reasoning and 2) we as indviduals. Those are two completely different discussions. Therefore, I await a rebuttal of anything I've posted on this thread.


*This is not to say that human experience is inferior to faith, that's a whole other discussion.


--EDIT -- Correction, I think it would be best if I just left all these conversations... . . May the Lord shine a light on your path, and may he save me from my own pride.
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« Reply #54 on: January 26, 2005, 01:24:41 AM »

Evidentialism implies that it is not warranted to have a full religious belief unless there is conclusive evidence for it while fideism is the belief based on faith, despite what lack of evidence there may be.

I have come to the understanding that history cannot prove theology.

Hindus believe that Christ was an avatar of Vishnu. If that were true, then all the miracles of Christ could have happened just as recorded.

However, why do I believe that Christ is the Son of Yahweh and not the incarnation of a Hindu God? The faith of the Church and my own personal faith.

If the deity of Christ as we know it were a verifiable fact, then there would be little difference between believing the Christian faith and believing the equation 2+2=4.



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« Reply #55 on: January 26, 2005, 01:28:37 AM »

Evidentialism implies that it is not warranted to have a full religious belief unless there is conclusive evidence for it while fideism is the belief based on faith, despite a lack of evidence.

I have come to the understanding the history cannot prove theology. If the deity of Christ were a verifiable fact, then there would be little difference between believing the Christian faith and believing the equation 2+2=4.







I didn't really read paragraph #1 but paragraph #2 is actually spot on. Read the Way to Nicaea by Fr John Behr for more on this.

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« Reply #56 on: January 26, 2005, 01:30:06 AM »

i've revised the post
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« Reply #57 on: January 27, 2005, 01:19:17 AM »

"Faith is different from proof; the latter is human, the former is a Gift from God."


"We know the truth, not only by the reason, but also by the heart."


"The heart has its reasons that reason knows nothing of."


"It is the heart which perceives God and not the reason. That is what faith is: God perceived by the heart, not by the reason."

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« Reply #58 on: January 27, 2005, 07:41:48 AM »

Reply to the above thread.

I am not a great philosopher, though of course I have pondered the meaning of life, etc.
I am more of a practical person, and I believed I could study Orthodoxy and Christianity and it would
be able to be dissected and explained. I am a theologian, and I knew the Bible as a Protestant very well.
When I studied Orthodox theology, it made perfect sense to me. (The parts that were able to be referred to
out of the Bible. I was VERY Sola Scriptura) But then issues like veneration of the Saints and Iconography, and
the Dormition of Theothokos came up. And I was lost. There was no way I could reconcile it to being a Christian.

But I continued to attend Holy Liturgy with my wife, who was a Catacumen and who had a date for her Chrismation.

I can not explain this, but the Spirit of God spoke in my mind right in the middle of DL, and He said. " Don't be so
proud because you think you know everything. You don't!"

And right there I realised I had to bridge the gulf between Proof and Faith. And I was converted on the spot!
I had all the book knowledge, the writings of the Early Fathers, the Canons and the Seven Ecumenical councils.
And I decided on the spot that the Church was right, no matter what I thought. The Church had been led by the
Spirit all these centuries, who was I to question them?

Suddenly I understood. I was like the Ethiopian eunuch, and I went to the priest after Divine Liturgy, and I said I wanted to be Chrismated with my wife. And it was so! (Faith without works is dead.)

That is what being Orthodox is. Believing because the Church believes. Doing, because the Church believes. Fasting, because the
Church believes, praying the prayers in the prayerbook, because the Church believes. Living a Christ centred life, because the church believes, dying to self, because the Church believes.

United we stand, and the gates of Hell can not prevail aginst us. Divided we fall, and are lost.


Kolya

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« Reply #59 on: January 27, 2005, 01:26:33 PM »

thank you for the response.

I'm really digging Pascal's philosophy of faith: Reason is of the mind but faith is of the heart.
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« Reply #60 on: January 27, 2005, 04:33:14 PM »

That's wonderful. When you're done playing armchair philosopher you are welcome to join us in the real world.
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« Reply #61 on: January 27, 2005, 04:34:26 PM »

What do you not like about Pascal?
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« Reply #62 on: February 01, 2005, 01:24:51 PM »

Here is an excellet nugget of Pascal that we're covering in Philosophy of Religion, that sums up the point of this discussion:

252

For we must not misunderstand ourselves; we are as much automatic as intellectual; and hence it comes that the instrument by which conviction is attained is not demonstration alone. How few things are demonstrated? Proofs only convince the mind. Custom is the source of our strongest and most believed proofs. It bends the automaton, which persuades the mind without its thinking about the matter. Who has demonstrated that there will be a to-morrow, and that we shall die? And what is more believed? It is then custom which persuades us of it; it is custom that makes so many men Christians; custom that makes them Turks, heathens, artisans, soldiers, &c. (Faith in baptism is more received among Christians than among Turks.) Finally, we must have recourse to it when once the mind has seen where the truth is, in order to quench our thirst, and steep ourselves in that belief, which escapes us at every hour; for always to have proofs ready is too much trouble. We must get an easier belief, which is that of custom, which, without violence, without art, without argument, makes us believe things, and inclines all our powers to this belief, so that our soul falls naturally into it. It is not enough to believe only by force of conviction, when the automaton is inclined to believe the contrary. Both our parts must be made to believe, the mind by reasons which it is sufficient to have seen once in a lifetime, and the automaton by custom, and by not allowing it to incline to the contrary. Inclina cor meum, Deus. 8

[Footnote 8: Psalms, cxix. 36.]

The reason acts slowly, with so many examinations, and on so many principles, which must be always present, that at every hour it falls asleep, or wanders, through want of having all its principles present. Feeling does not act thus; it acts in a moment, and is always ready to act. We must then put our faith in feeling; otherwise it will be always vacillating.

282

We know truth, not only by the reason, but also by the heart, and it is in this last way that we know first principles; and reason, which has no part in it, tries in vain to impugn them. The sceptics, who have only this for their object, labour to no purpose. We know that we do not dream, and however impossible it is for us to prove it by reason, this inability demonstrates only the weakness of our reason, but not, as they affirm, the uncertainty of all our knowledge. For the knowledge of first principles, as space, time, motion, number, is as sure as any of those which we get from reasoning. And reason must trust these intuitions of the heart, and must base on them every argument. (We have intuitive knowledge of the tri-dimensional nature of space, and of the infinity of number, and reason then shows that there are two square numbers one of which is double of the other. Principles are intuited, propositions are inferred, all with certainty, though in different ways.) And it is as useless and absurd for reason to demand from the heart proofs of her first principles, before admitting them, as it would be for the heart to demand from reason an intuition of all demonstrated propositions before accepting them.

This inability ought, then, to serve only to humble reason, which would judge all, but not to impugn our certainty, as if only reason were capable of instructing us. Would to God, on the contrary, that we had never need of it, and that we knew everything by instinct and intuition! But nature has refused us this boon. On the contrary, she has given us but very little knowledge of this kind; and all the rest can be acquired only by reasoning.

Therefore, those to whom God has imparted religion by intuition are very fortunate, and justly convinced. But to those who do not have it, we can give it only by reasoning, waiting for God to give them spiritual insight, without which faith is only human, and useless for salvation.
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« Reply #63 on: February 02, 2005, 09:53:11 PM »

Source: Trans. Asterios Gerostergios, Orthodox Faith and Life in Christ, (Institute For Byzantine And Modern Greek Studies, 1997), pp. 117-168

Excerpts from the essay The Theory of Knowlege of St. Isaac the Syrian, by Saint Justin Popovich

The Sickness of the Organs of Understanding
The characterof a man's knowledge depends on the disposition, nature, and condition of his organs of understanding. At all levels knowledge depends intrinsically on the means of understanding. Man does not make truth; the act of understanding is an act of making one's own a truth which is already objectively given. This integration has an organic character, not unlike that of the grafting of a slip onto a vine, or its life in and from the vine (cf. John 15:1-6). Understanding is, then, a fruit on the tree of the human person. As is the tree, so are its fruits, as ar the organs of understanding, so is the knowledge they engender.

Analyzing man by his empirical gifts, St. Isaac the Syrian finds that his organs of understanding are sick. "Evil is a sickness of soul," whence all the organs of understanding are made sick. Evil has its perceptions, the passions, and "the passions are illnesses of the soul. Evil and the passions are not natural to the soul; they are accidents, adventitious, and intrusive, an unnatural addition to the soul.

What are the passions in themselves? They are "a certain hardness or insensitivity of being." Their causes are to be found in the things of life themselves. The passions are the desire for wealth and amassing of goods, for ease and bodily comfort; they are thirst for honor and exercise of power; they are luxury and frivolity; they are the desire for glory from men and fear for one's own body. All these passions have one common name--"the world." "The world means carnal conduct and a carnal mind." The passions are the attacks of the world on man by means of the things of the world. Divine grace is the only power capable of repulsing them. When the passions make their home in man, they uproot his soul. They confuse the mind, filling it with fantastic forms, images, and desires, so that his thoughts are disturbed and filled with fantasy. "The world is a prostitute," which, by means of its soul-destroying desires, beguiles the soul, undermines its virtues, and destroys its God-given purity. Then, the soul, having itself bcome impure and a prostitute, gives birth to impure knowledge.

A feeble soul, a diseased intellect, a weakened heart and will--in brief, sick organs of understanding--can only engender, fashion, and produce sick thoughts, sick feelings, sick desires, and sick knoweldge.

The Healing of the Organs of Understanding
St. Isaac gives a precise diagnosis of the sickness of the soul and of its organs of understanding, and just as clearly he gives the remedy, offering it categorically and with conviction. Since the passions are a sickness of the soul, the soul can only be healed by purification from the passions and from evil. The virtues are the health of the soul, as the passions are its sickness. The virtues are the remedies that progressively eliminate sickness from the soul and from the organs of understanding. This is a slow process, deamnding much effort and great patience.

The Soul is made drunk by the passions but can recover its health if it will use the virtues as the path to sobriety. The virtues, however, are woven through with sorrow and afflictions. St. Isaac says that every virtue is a cross, and even that sorrow and afflictions are the source of the virtues. He therefore expressly advocates a love of oppression and sorrow, so that by them a man may be freed from the things of this world and have a mind that is detached from the world's confusion. For man must first free himself from the material world in order to be born of God. Such is the economy of grace; such, too, is the economy of knowledge.

If a man resolves to treat and heal his soul, he must first apply himself to a careful examination of his whole being. He must learn to distinguish good from evil, the things of God fro those of the devil, for "discernment is the greatest of the virtues." The acquisition of the virtues is a progressive and organic process: one virtue follows another. One depends on the other; one is born of the other: "Every virtue is the mother of the next." Among the virtues there is not only an ontological order, but also a chronological one. The first among them is faith.

Faith
It is by the ascesis of faith that the treatment and cure of a soul which is sick with the passions is begun. Once faith begins to live in a man, the passions begin to be uprooted from his soul. But "until the soul becomes intoxicated with faith in God, until it comes to feel faith's power," it can neither be healed of the passions nor overcome the material world. There is both a negative side to the ascesis of faith, freedom from sinful matter, and a positive side, oneness with God.

The soul, which was dispersed by the senses among the things of this world, is brought back to itself by the ascesis of faith, by fasting from material things and by devoting itself to a constant remembrance of God. This is the foundation of all good things. Freedom from enslavement to sinful matter is essential for advancement in the spiritual life. The beginning of this new way of life is found in the concetration of one's thoughts on God, in incessant pondering on the words of God, and in a life of poverty.

...In the ascesis of faith, man is asked to act according to a pardox that denies understanding: "Be dead in your life, and you will live after death". By faith the mind is healed and acquires wisdom. The soul becomes wise when it stops "consorting shamelessly with promiscuous thoughts." "Love of the body is a sign of unbelief." Faith frees the intellect from the categories of the senses and sobers it by means of fasting, by pondering on God, and by vigils. Intemperance and a full stomach cloud the mind, distract it, and disperse it among fantasies and passions. The knowledge of God cannot be found in a body that loves pleasure. It is from the seed of fasting that the blade of a healthy understanding grows--and it is from satiety that debauchery comes, and impurity from excess.

...Shame and the fear of God steady the tumult of the mind; the lack of this shame and this fear disturb the balance of the understanding, making it fickle and unstable. The mind is only on a firm foundation if it keeps the Lord's commadnments and is ready to endure suffering and affliction. It is enslaved by the things of life, it is darkened. Collecting himself through faith, a man awakens his intellect towards God, and by prayerful silence cleanses his mind and overcomes the passions. The soul is restored to health by silence. It is therefore necessary to train oneself to silence--and this is a labor that brings sweetness to the heart. It is through silence that a man reaches peace from unwarranted thoughts.

Faith brings peace to the intellect and, in bringing it, uproots rebellious thoughts. Sin is the soruce of restlessness and strife in the thoughts and is also the source of man's struggle against heaven and with other men. "But at peace with yourself, and you will bring peace to heaven and to earth." Until faith appears, the intellect is dispersed among the things of this world; it is by faith that this fragmentation of the intellect is overcome. The wandering of the thoughts is provoked by the demon of harlotry, as it the wandering of the eyes by the spirit of uncleanness.

...The passions can only be overcome by the practice of the virtues, and every passion must be fought to the death. Faith is the first and chief weapon in the struggle with the passions, for faith is the light of the mind that drives away the darkness of the passions and the strength of the intellect that banishes sickness from the soul. Faith bears within itself not only its own principle and substance, but the principle and substance of all the other virtues--developing as they do one from the other and encircling one another like the annual rings of a tree. If faith can be said to have a language, that language is prayer.

Prayer
It is by the ascesis of faith that a man conquers egotism, steps beyond the bounds of self, and enters into a new, transcendent reality which also transcends subjectivity. In this new reality new laws rule; what is the unknown depths of this new reality, the ascetic of faith is led and guided by prayer; he feels, thinks, and lives by prayer. Tracing this path of faith in the intellect of man, St. Isaac notes that the intellect is guarded and guided by prayer, every good thought being transformed by prayer into a pondering on God. But prayer is also a hard struggle, calling the whole person into action. Man crucifies himself in prayer, crucifying the passions and sinful thoughts that cling to his soul. "Prayer is the slaying of the carnal thoughts of man's fleshly life."

Patient Perseverance in prayer is for man a very hard ascesis, that of the denial of self. This is fundamental to the work of salvation. Prayer is the fount of salvation and it is by prayer that all the other virtues--and all good things--are acquired. This is why a man of prayer is assailed by monstrous temptations from which he is protected and saved only by prayer.

The surest guardian of the intellect is prayer. It drives away the clouds of the passions and illumines the intellect, bringing wisdom to the mind. Unceasing abiding in prayer is a true sign of perfection. Spiritual prayer turns into ecstasy in which are revealed the mysteries of the Holy Trinity, and the intellect enters that sphere of holy unknowing that is greater than knowledge. Begun thus by faith, the healing of the organs of human personality are pushed wider and wider, self-centeredness being progressively replaced by God-centeredness.

Love
"Love is born of prayer," just as prayer is born of faith. The virtues are of one substance, and are thus born of one another. Love for God is a sign that the new reality into which a man is led by faith and prayer is far greater than tha which has gone before. Love for God and man is the work of prayer and faith; a true love for man is in fact impossible without faith and prayer.

By faith man changes worlds: he moves from the limited world to the limitless, where he lives no longer by the laws of the senses but by the laws of prayer and love. St. Isaac lays great emphasis on the conviction he came to through his ascetic experience: that love for GOd comes through prayer--"Love is the fruit of prayer." One can receive love from God through prayer and cannot in any way acquire it without the struggle of prayer. Since man comes to the knowledge of God through faith and prayer, it is strictly true that "love is born of knowledge".

...Love is of God, "for God is love" (1 John 4:8). "He who acquires love puts on with it God himself." God has no bounds, and love is therefore boundless and without limit, so that "he who loves by and in God loves all things equally and without distinction." St. Isaac says of such a man that he has achieved perfection. As an example of perfect love, St. Isaac quotes the wish of the holy Abba Agathon: "to find a leper and change bodies with him."

In the kingdom of love the antinomies of the mind disappear. The man who strives in love enjoys a foretaste of the harmony of Paradise in himself and in God's world around him, for he has been delivered from the hell of self-centeredness and has entered into the paradise of divine values and perfections. InSt. Isaac's words: "Paradise is the love of God, in which lies the sweetness of blessings." Hell is the absence of the love of God, and those tortured in hell are tortured by the whiplash of love. When a man acquires perfectly the love of God, he acquires perfection. St. Isaac therefore recommends: "For acquire love, which is the original form of man's contemplation of the Holy Trinity."

Freeing himself from the passions, man disengages himself step by step from tha self-absorption that characterizes humanism. He leaves the sphere of death-dealing anthropocentrism and enters the sphere of the Holy Trinity. Here he receives into his soul the divine peace, wherein the oppositions and contradictions that arise from the categories of time and space lose their death-dealing power, and where he can clearly perceive his virtory over sin and death.

Humility
Faith has its own thought-forms, having as it does its own way of life. A Christian not only lives by faith (2 Cor. 5:7) but also thinks by faith. Faith represents a new way of thinking, through which is effected all the work of knowing in the believing man. This new way of thinking is humility. Within the infinite reality of faith, the intellect abases itself before the ineffable mysteries of new life in the Holy Spirit. The pride of the intellect gives way to humility and modesty replaces presumption. The ascetic of faith protects all his thoughts through humility, and thereby also ensures for himself the knowledge of eternal truth.

Drawing its strength from prayer, humility goes on growing and growing without end. St. Isaac teaches that prayer and humility are always equally balanced, and that progress in prayer means progress also in humility and vice versa. Humility is a power that collects the heart within itself and prevents its dissipating itself in proud thoughts and lustful desires. Humility is upheld and protected by the Holy Spirit, and not only draws man to God but also God to man...

Humility is a mysterious, divine power which is given only to the saints, to those who are perfected in the virtues, and it is given by grace. It "contains all things within itself." By the grace of the Holy Spirit "the mysteries are revealed to the humble, and it is these humble ones who are thereby perfect in wisdom. "The humble man is the fount of the mysteries of the new age."

...When turned towards the world, a humble man reveals the whole of his personality through humility, imitating in this God incarnate. "Just as the soul is unknown and invisible to bodily sight, so a humble man is unknown among men." He not only seeks to be unnoticed by men but to be as utterly recollected within himself as is possible, becoming "as one who does not exist on earth, who has not yet come into beign, and who is utterly unknown even to his own soul." A humble man belittles himself before all men, but God therefore glorifies him, for "where humility blossoms, there God's glory sprouts abundantly," and the plant of the soul produces an imperishable flower.

Grace and Freedom
The person of Christ the God-man presents in itself the ideal image of human personality and knowledge. The person of Christ of itself traces and defines the path of a Christian's life in every way. In Him is found the most perfect realization of the mystical union of God and man, while at the same time He reveals both God's work in man and man's in God.

God and man working together is the basic indication of Christian activity in the world. Man works with God and God with man (cf. 1 Cor. 3:9). Working within and around himself, the Christain gives himself entirely to ascesis, but he does this, and is able to do it, only through the ceaseless activity of the divine power that is grace. For the Christian no thought, no feeling, no action can come from the Gospel without the help of God's grace, and it is from this mutual activity, or synergy, that Christian personality is born.

On every rung of the ladder of perfection, grace is essential to the Christian. A man can make no single evangelical virtue his own without the help and support of God's grace. Everything in Christianity is by grace and free will, for all is the common work of God and man. St. Isaac particularly stresses this common work of man's will and God's grace in the whole of a Christian's life. Grace opens a man's eyes to the discernment of good and evil. It strengthens the sense of God within him, opens the future to him and fills him with mystical light.

The more grace God gives to the man of faith, the more He reveals to him the abysses of evil in the world and in man. At the same time, He allows greater and greater temptations to assail him, that he may tesst the God-given power of grace and may feel and learn that it is only by the help of grace that he can overcome the ever more fearsome and scandalous temptations. For as soon as grace perceives that a man's soul is becoming self-sufficient, making him great in his own sight, it leaves him and lets temptations assail him until he becomes aware of his sickness and humbly takes refuge in God.

By working together in God's grace and his own will, a man grows in faith to perfect stature. This happens by degrees, for grace entres into the soul "little by little," being given before all else to the humble. The greater the humility, the greater the grace, and wisdom is contained within grace. "The humble are endowed with wisdom by grace."

Grace-filled wisdom gradually reveals the mysteries to the humble, one after the other, culminating in the mystery of suffering. The humble know why man suffers, for grace reveals to them the meaning of suffering. The greater the grace that a man has, the greater his grasp of the meaning and purpose of suffering and temptation. If he drives grace from him by sloth and love of sin, a man drives from himself the only means he has of finding meaning and justification for his sufferings and temptations.

The Purification of the Intellect
By an unceasing renewal of self through a grace-filled asceticism, a man gradually drives sin and the passions from his whole being and from his organs of understanding, in this way healing them of these death-dealing illnesses... Especial care must be taken with the chief organ of understanding, the intellect, for it has a particularly important role in the realm of human personality... Fasting is... the chief means of purifying the intellect... It is through prayer that the intellect is refined and rendered clear... Transforming himself with the help of grace-filled ascetic effort, a man acquires purity of intellect and with this purified intellect "comes to see the mysteries of God."

...Only the mind that has been cleansed by grace can offer pure, spiritual knowledge... Few there are who are able to return to man's original purity of mind. Perseverance in prayer cleanses the intellect, illumines it, and fills it with the light of truth. The virtues, led by compassion, give the intellect peace and light. The cleansing of the intellect is not a dialectical, discursive and theoretical activity, but an act of grace through experience and is ethical in every respect. The intellect is purified by fasting, vigils, silence, prayer, and the other ascetic practices...

The Mystery of Knowledge
... According to St. Isaac the Syrian, there are two sorts of knowledge: that which precedes faith and that which is born of faith. The former is natural knoweldge and involves the discernment of good and evil. The latter is spiritual knowledge and is "the perception of the mysteries," "the perception of what is hidden," "the contemplation of the invisible." There are also two sorts of faith: the first comes through hearing and is confirmed and proven by the second, "the faith of contemplation," "the faith that is based on what has been seen." ... When a man begins to follow the path of faith, he must lay aside once and for all his old methods of knowing, for faith has its own methods...

The chief characteristic of natural knowledge is its approach by examination and experimentation. This is in itself "a sign of uncertainty about the truth." Faith, on the contrary, follows a pure and simple way of thought that is far removed from all guile and methodical examination. These two paths lead in opposite directions... this natural knowledge, according to St. Isaac, is not at fault. It is not to be rejected. It is just that faith is higher than it is...

At its lowest level, knowledge "follows the desires of the flesh," concerning itself with riches, vainglory, dress, repose of body, and search for rational wisdom. This knowledge invents the arts and sciences and all that adorns the body in this visible world. But in all this, such knowledge is contrary to faith... From the first and lowest degree of knowledge, man moves on to the second, when he begins both in body and soul to practice the virtues: fasting, prayer, almsgiving, the reading of Holy Scripture, the struggle with the passions, and so forth... The third degree of knowledge is that of perfection...

The first knowledge comes "from continual study and the desire to learn. The second comes from a proper way of life and a clearly held faith. The third comes from faith alone, for in it knowledge is done away, activity ceases, and the senses become superfluous." ...It is very difficult, and often impossible, to express in words the mystery and nature of knowledge. In the realm of human thought, there is no ready definition that can explain it completely... But the most profound, and to my mind the most exhaustive answer that man can give to this question is that given by St. Isaac in the form of a dialogue:

Question: What is knowledge?
Answer: The perception of eternal life.
Question: And what is eternal life?
Answer: To perceive all things in God. For love comes through understanding, and the knowledge of God is ruler over all desires. To the heart that receives this knowledge every delight that exists on earth is superfluous, for there is nothing that can compare with the delight of the knowledge of God.

For human knowledge the most vital problem is that of truth. Knowledge bears within itself an irresistible pull toward the infinite mystery, and this hunger for truth that is instinctive to human knowledge is never satisfied unto eternal and absolute Truth itself becomes the substance of human knowledge--until knowledge, in its own self-perception, acquires the perception of God, and it its own self- knowledge come to the knowledge of God. But this is given to man only by Christ, the God-Man, he who is the only incarnation and personification of eternal truth in the world of human realities...

What is truth? St. Isaac answers thus: "Truth is the eprception of things that is given by God." In other words: the perception of God is truth... In the philosophy of St. Isaac, the problem of the nature of knowledge becomes an ontological and ethical problem which, in the last resort, is seen to be the problem of human personality. The nature and character of knowledge depend ontologically, morally, and gnoseologically on the constitution of the human person, and especially on the constitution and state of its organs of knowledge. In the person of the ascetic of faith, knowledge , of its very nature, turns to contemplation...

Contemplation
...According to [St. Isaac], contemplation is the sense of divine mysteries hidden within things and events. Contemplation is found in the finest workings of the mind and in continual pondering on God. Its abode is unceasing prayer, and thus it illumines the spiritual part of the soul, the intellect... By the help of a good life lived in grace, the ascetic of faith ascends to contemplation... "After this there arises in him the sweetness of God and a burning love for God in his heart, a love that burns away the passions of both soul and body." ... Human nature is capable of true contemplation when it is cleansed from the passions by the exercize of the virtues.

Conclusion
St. Isaac's theory of knowledge is dominated by the conviction that the problem of knowledge is fundamentally a religious and an ethical one... One thing is certain: that knowledge, on all levels, depends on man's religious and moral state. The more perfect a man is from the religious and moral standpoint, the more perfect is his knowledge. Man has been made in such a way that knowledge and morality are always balanced within him.

There is no doubt that knowledge progresses through man's virtues and regresses through the passions. Knowledge is like a fabric woven by the virtues on the loom of the human soul. The loom of the soul extends through all the visible and invisible worlds. The virtues are not only powers creating knowledge; they are the principles and source of knowledge. By transforming the virtues into constituent elements of his being through ascetic endeavor, a man advances from knowledge to knowledge. It could even be possible to say that the virtues are the sense organs of knowledge. Advancing from one virtue to another, a man moves from one form of comprehension to another...

Healed and made whole by the religious and moral power of the virtues, a man gives expression to the purity and intergrity of his person particularly through the purity and integrity of his knowledge. According to the evangelical, Orthodox understanding found in St. Isaac the Syrian, knowledge is an action, an ascesis, of the whole human person, and not of one part of his being--whether it be the intellect, the understanding, the will, the body, or the senses...

In this theanthropic way of life and knowledge, there is nothing that is unreal, abstract, or hypothetical. here all is real with an irresistible reality, for all is based on experience... This reality has no bounds, for the person of Christ is limitless.
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« Reply #64 on: February 02, 2005, 10:08:09 PM »

much appreciated
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« Reply #65 on: February 07, 2005, 12:03:15 AM »

This is the Orthodox Study Bible's commentary on John 20:29 -

"Doubting Thomas required direct proof of the Resurrection. A blessed faith is one which trusts in the risen Christ without proof."

Isn't that fideistic?
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« Reply #66 on: February 07, 2005, 12:23:36 AM »

Well, condsider this.

Christ is ever present in the world.  We are to see Him in everyone.  And to love everyone as he loved.  Alot of people saw the miracles and heard the teachings, ad still didnt belive.  Even with the proof right there in front of them. Even if Christ were to show himself now, there would be people who would reject Him because their hearts are hardened against Him.  He does show himself to us in faith and in our lives.  But we must look woth out hearts and all of our being, not just with brains and intelect, but in faith. 

The pharasees saw.  Didnt believe.

The saducees saw.   Didnt beleive.

We must in faith follow so that when the time comes we might recognize him with all of out being.  And it msut be in faith because there is no other way to love Him but in faith.

Just a thought.  Grin

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« Reply #67 on: February 07, 2005, 12:36:18 AM »

Of course faith is important, and really the center of the Life in Christ. But again, to say Christianity is "evidential" or "fideistic" or "mystical" or "ascetic" or whatever else, to the downplaing or exclusion of other things, is to go astray IMO. See this page for what I believe to be a more patristically sound view of the person of St. Thomas and that particular verse. The Scripture witnesses to the fact that all of the Apostles disbelieved after the Crucifixion of our Lord, and that they all needed proof of some type. So you can say that Christianity is about faith, but the bottom line is that even the Apostles wanted proof. Biblical and Patristic Christianity is about balance. It's only in the "enlightened" western Christianity that you need to dissect everything and create a hundred artificial distinctions so as to systemize everything for rationalistic consumption. Thus you need to box or corner the faith, and ask questions like "Well is it FAITH or EVIDENCE?" The idea that the answer might be both (and a whole lot more) just doesn't seem to register.
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« Reply #68 on: February 07, 2005, 01:13:59 AM »

Good point! Afro

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« Reply #69 on: February 07, 2005, 01:28:53 PM »

According to Paul, isn't the only evidence we need the uniqueness of the cross?
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