OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 23, 2014, 02:24:47 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Destruction  (Read 1186 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
FlickFlack
Moderated
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern
Posts: 249


Twinkle Twinkle little star


« on: January 26, 2013, 07:10:09 PM »

Will God destroy/annihilate the Universe/matter at some point, or even the entire Creation?
Logged

Right here, right now.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,875



« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2013, 07:42:16 PM »

No.
Logged
FlickFlack
Moderated
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern
Posts: 249


Twinkle Twinkle little star


« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2013, 08:15:32 PM »

No.

What makes you say that?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 08:15:48 PM by FlickFlack » Logged

Right here, right now.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,970


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2013, 10:14:31 PM »


It's the teaching of the Church.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,470


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2013, 11:10:20 PM »


Reference please. Thanks.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,970


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2013, 11:51:39 PM »


You want a reference that annihilationism is not the teaching of the Church?
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,470


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2013, 11:55:24 PM »


You want a reference that annihilationism is not the teaching of the Church?

You said that it was a teaching of the Church that the universe would not be destroyed.
Can you prove this?

Smiley
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 11:55:59 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 2,082


don't even go there!


« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2013, 11:57:26 PM »

Since the universe is basically everything that exists, it could not be annihilated without annihilating God, since God exists; therefore the universe will never be annihilated.  There, how's that? ;-)
Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,970


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2013, 01:32:55 AM »


You want a reference that annihilationism is not the teaching of the Church?

You said that it was a teaching of the Church that the universe would not be destroyed.
Can you prove this?

Smiley

I did not say it at all. I was echoing the respons of "No." Annihilationism is a heresy.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,970


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2013, 01:34:18 AM »

Since the universe is basically everything that exists, it could not be annihilated without annihilating God, since God exists; therefore the universe will never be annihilated.  There, how's that? ;-)

The universe is not everything that exists. It is all that is created. God is uncreated, unoriginate. Also, he is "the Existing One," or "the only one who truly exists" or the one from whom we have our being.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,470


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2013, 01:34:59 AM »


You want a reference that annihilationism is not the teaching of the Church?

You said that it was a teaching of the Church that the universe would not be destroyed.
Can you prove this?

Smiley

I did not say it at all. I was echoing the respons of "No." Annihilationism is a heresy.

Can you give a citation or canon condemning "annihilationism."
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,970


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2013, 01:38:36 AM »


You want a reference that annihilationism is not the teaching of the Church?

You said that it was a teaching of the Church that the universe would not be destroyed.
Can you prove this?

Smiley

I did not say it at all. I was echoing the respons of "No." Annihilationism is a heresy.

Can you give a citation or canon condemning "annihilationism."

Really? Are we playing this game?
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
pmpn8rGPT
Grammar Nazi in three languages.
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox (old calendarist)
Posts: 1,038


Proof that Russia won the Space Race.


« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2013, 01:42:55 AM »


You want a reference that annihilationism is not the teaching of the Church?

You said that it was a teaching of the Church that the universe would not be destroyed.
Can you prove this?

Smiley

I did not say it at all. I was echoing the respons of "No." Annihilationism is a heresy.
And I wil establish my couenant with you, neither shal all flesh be cut off any more, by the waters of a flood, neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
-Genesis 9:11
Can you give a citation or canon condemning "annihilationism."
Logged

"Tomorrow, I shall no longer be here."
-Nostradamus's last words.
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,470


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2013, 01:44:24 AM »


You want a reference that annihilationism is not the teaching of the Church?

You said that it was a teaching of the Church that the universe would not be destroyed.
Can you prove this?

Smiley

I did not say it at all. I was echoing the respons of "No." Annihilationism is a heresy.

Can you give a citation or canon condemning "annihilationism."

Really? Are we playing this game?

I am asking an honest question as you keep making the claim that "annihilationism" is a heresy and that it is against the teaching of the Church. Surely, then, there must be a canon that anathematizes anyone who believes in "annihilationism."
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,470


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2013, 01:47:35 AM »


You want a reference that annihilationism is not the teaching of the Church?

You said that it was a teaching of the Church that the universe would not be destroyed.
Can you prove this?

Smiley

I did not say it at all. I was echoing the respons of "No." Annihilationism is a heresy.
Can you give a citation or canon condemning "annihilationism."

And I wil establish my couenant with you, neither shal all flesh be cut off any more, by the waters of a flood, neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
-Genesis 9:11


This quote from Genesis 9 tells us that the earth will not be destroyed by a flood again.
However, Annihilationism teaches that the universe will be destroyed, doesn't it? If that were to happen, everything would be wiped out.

« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 01:49:07 AM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
pmpn8rGPT
Grammar Nazi in three languages.
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox (old calendarist)
Posts: 1,038


Proof that Russia won the Space Race.


« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2013, 02:00:21 AM »


You want a reference that annihilationism is not the teaching of the Church?

You said that it was a teaching of the Church that the universe would not be destroyed.
Can you prove this?

Smiley

I did not say it at all. I was echoing the respons of "No." Annihilationism is a heresy.
Can you give a citation or canon condemning "annihilationism."

And I wil establish my couenant with you, neither shal all flesh be cut off any more, by the waters of a flood, neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
-Genesis 9:11


This quote from Genesis 9 tells us that the earth will not be destroyed by a flood again.
However, Annihilationism teaches that the universe will be destroyed, doesn't it? If that were to happen, everything would be wiped out.


Not to go Roman or anything but I think the basic idea is still here, God will not destroy the universe by a flood, technically, anything that COULD destroy the universe would be a flood (flood of water, flood of fire, flood of asteroids, flood of angels, flood of some crazy supernatural abilities etc.)
Logged

"Tomorrow, I shall no longer be here."
-Nostradamus's last words.
Ioannis Climacus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 863


"There is no religion higher than TRUTH"


« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2013, 02:26:58 AM »

Maria's inquiry is fair. I am also interested in seeing canons that condemn the idea of an impermanent universe.

Matthew 24:35 certainly implies an end to the universe : "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."

That said, annihilationism, in a Christian context, means something else entirely.

« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 02:33:58 AM by Ioannis Climacus » Logged

Note : Many of my posts (especially the ones antedating late 2012) do not reflect charity, tact, or even views I presently hold. Please forgive me for any antagonism I have caused.
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,636


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2013, 02:51:04 AM »

I don't think so. It seems to contradict our teaching that the world will be RESURRECTED. How could it be resurrected if it gets totally annihilated?
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2013, 03:04:08 AM »


You want a reference that annihilationism is not the teaching of the Church?

You said that it was a teaching of the Church that the universe would not be destroyed.
Can you prove this?

Smiley

I did not say it at all. I was echoing the respons of "No." Annihilationism is a heresy.
And I wil establish my couenant with you, neither shal all flesh be cut off any more, by the waters of a flood, neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
-Genesis 9:11
Can you give a citation or canon condemning "annihilationism."

This is God saying He will not destroy the world again by flood.  That's it.
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2013, 03:06:49 AM »

Maria's inquiry is fair. I am also interested in seeing canons that condemn the idea of an impermanent universe.

Matthew 24:35 certainly implies an end to the universe : "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."

That said, annihilationism, in a Christian context, means something else entirely.


Agreed.  From what I have been exposed to, the Orthodox Church has not taken an official stand on end time prophecy.
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2013, 03:07:29 AM »

I don't think so. It seems to contradict our teaching that the world will be RESURRECTED. How could it be resurrected if it gets totally annihilated?
I seems that's the only way to get it done.
Logged
Jason.Wike
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,046


« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2013, 03:44:10 AM »

I don't think so. It seems to contradict our teaching that the world will be RESURRECTED. How could it be resurrected if it gets totally annihilated?

God hasn't told us everything. No one really knows if 10 trillion years after the resurrection and 10 trillion years of nothing but endless adoration he'll decide "ok, done with this one." and pull the plug.
Logged
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,576


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2013, 04:03:33 AM »

Will God destroy/annihilate the Universe/matter at some point, or even the entire Creation?
No, because humans will exist as resurrected body-minds for eternity.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
FlickFlack
Moderated
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern
Posts: 249


Twinkle Twinkle little star


« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2013, 04:38:58 AM »

Will God destroy/annihilate the Universe/matter at some point, or even the entire Creation?
No, because humans will exist as resurrected body-minds for eternity.

What do you mean by 'resurrected body-minds' ? So is the Universe eternal than?
Logged

Right here, right now.
FlickFlack
Moderated
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern
Posts: 249


Twinkle Twinkle little star


« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2013, 04:40:26 AM »

Since the universe is basically everything that exists, it could not be annihilated without annihilating God, since God exists; therefore the universe will never be annihilated.  There, how's that? ;-)

So there is nothing outside this material Universe? Where is heaven or hell than?
Logged

Right here, right now.
FlickFlack
Moderated
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern
Posts: 249


Twinkle Twinkle little star


« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2013, 04:43:30 AM »

I don't think so. It seems to contradict our teaching that the world will be RESURRECTED. How could it be resurrected if it gets totally annihilated?

What is the purpose of the Resurrection, because I miss it. If your souls continues to exist as an entity in another world better than this why bring it back to flesh? Also is the Universe eternal?
Logged

Right here, right now.
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,576


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2013, 04:48:40 AM »

Will God destroy/annihilate the Universe/matter at some point, or even the entire Creation?
No, because humans will exist as resurrected body-minds for eternity.

What do you mean by 'resurrected body-minds' ? So is the Universe eternal than?
The Universe includes everything material. Our resurrected bodies will be material. (A resurrected body implies  a resurrected mind, which is also material, thus, 'body-mind'.) These body-minds (and thus the Universe) will be eternally existing.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 04:50:14 AM by Jetavan » Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
FlickFlack
Moderated
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern
Posts: 249


Twinkle Twinkle little star


« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2013, 04:51:26 AM »

Will God destroy/annihilate the Universe/matter at some point, or even the entire Creation?
No, because humans will exist as resurrected body-minds for eternity.

What do you mean by 'resurrected body-minds' ? So is the Universe eternal than?
The Universe includes everything material. Our resurrected bodies will be material. (A resurrected body implies  a resurrected mind, which is also material, thus, 'body-mind'.) These body-minds (and thus the Universe) will be eternally existing.

Why all this spiritual mumbo jumbo than if everything resolves to matter ?
Logged

Right here, right now.
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,576


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2013, 10:45:32 AM »

Will God destroy/annihilate the Universe/matter at some point, or even the entire Creation?
No, because humans will exist as resurrected body-minds for eternity.

What do you mean by 'resurrected body-minds' ? So is the Universe eternal than?
The Universe includes everything material. Our resurrected bodies will be material. (A resurrected body implies  a resurrected mind, which is also material, thus, 'body-mind'.) These body-minds (and thus the Universe) will be eternally existing.

Why all this spiritual mumbo jumbo than if everything resolves to matter ?
Spirit is simply a different type of matter. God is beyond both spirit and matter.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
FlickFlack
Moderated
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern
Posts: 249


Twinkle Twinkle little star


« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2013, 12:52:23 PM »

Will God destroy/annihilate the Universe/matter at some point, or even the entire Creation?
No, because humans will exist as resurrected body-minds for eternity.

What do you mean by 'resurrected body-minds' ? So is the Universe eternal than?
The Universe includes everything material. Our resurrected bodies will be material. (A resurrected body implies  a resurrected mind, which is also material, thus, 'body-mind'.) These body-minds (and thus the Universe) will be eternally existing.

Why all this spiritual mumbo jumbo than if everything resolves to matter ?
Spirit is simply a different type of matter. God is beyond both spirit and matter.

Yes I know some fathers say that God is the purest Spirit and that the spirits of angels and humans are thick in comparision with Him but what do you mean by that? Do you mean that we should be more materialistic-centred ? Do you believe in the existence of a self-conscient soul after death? What happens with that soul when someone dies?
Logged

Right here, right now.
Ansgar
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: More than an inquirer, less than a catechumen
Jurisdiction: Exarchate of orthodox churches of russian tradition in western Europe
Posts: 2,971


Keep your mind in hell and do not despair


« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2013, 03:02:01 PM »

Quote
What happens with that soul when someone dies?

There are different opinions in that regard. As far as I know, the Church has never made a dogmatic decision on what exactly happens after death.
Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,576


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2013, 04:58:13 PM »

Will God destroy/annihilate the Universe/matter at some point, or even the entire Creation?
No, because humans will exist as resurrected body-minds for eternity.

What do you mean by 'resurrected body-minds' ? So is the Universe eternal than?
The Universe includes everything material. Our resurrected bodies will be material. (A resurrected body implies  a resurrected mind, which is also material, thus, 'body-mind'.) These body-minds (and thus the Universe) will be eternally existing.

Why all this spiritual mumbo jumbo than if everything resolves to matter ?
Spirit is simply a different type of matter. God is beyond both spirit and matter.

Yes I know some fathers say that God is the purest Spirit and that the spirits of angels and humans are thick in comparision with Him but what do you mean by that?
God is ultimately indescribable. It's often easier to say what God is not.
Quote
Do you mean that we should be more materialistic-centred ?
Some people probably do need to pay more attention to practical affairs.
Quote
Do you believe in the existence of a self-conscient soul after death?
Sure.
Quote
What happens with that soul when someone dies?
That's a bit vague, but what happens to the soul after death, is likely dependent upon how one lives one's life before death.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 04:59:31 PM by Jetavan » Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,895


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2013, 05:00:49 PM »

Why all this spiritual mumbo jumbo than if everything resolves to matter ?
The spiritual and material are not opposed.

What tradition do you come from?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 05:00:59 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.145 seconds with 60 queries.