Author Topic: Destruction  (Read 1683 times)

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Offline FlickFlack

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Destruction
« on: January 26, 2013, 07:10:09 PM »
Will God destroy/annihilate the Universe/matter at some point, or even the entire Creation?
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2013, 07:42:16 PM »
No.
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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2013, 08:15:32 PM »
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 08:15:48 PM by FlickFlack »
Right here, right now.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2013, 10:14:31 PM »
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Maria

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2013, 11:10:20 PM »
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2013, 11:51:39 PM »
No.

What makes you say that?

It's the teaching of the Church.

Reference please. Thanks.

You want a reference that annihilationism is not the teaching of the Church?
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Maria

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2013, 11:55:24 PM »
No.

What makes you say that?

It's the teaching of the Church.

Reference please. Thanks.

You want a reference that annihilationism is not the teaching of the Church?

You said that it was a teaching of the Church that the universe would not be destroyed.
Can you prove this?

:)
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 11:55:59 PM by Maria »
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Offline theistgal

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2013, 11:57:26 PM »
Since the universe is basically everything that exists, it could not be annihilated without annihilating God, since God exists; therefore the universe will never be annihilated.  There, how's that? ;-)
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2013, 01:32:55 AM »
No.

What makes you say that?

It's the teaching of the Church.

Reference please. Thanks.

You want a reference that annihilationism is not the teaching of the Church?

You said that it was a teaching of the Church that the universe would not be destroyed.
Can you prove this?

:)

I did not say it at all. I was echoing the respons of "No." Annihilationism is a heresy.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2013, 01:34:18 AM »
Since the universe is basically everything that exists, it could not be annihilated without annihilating God, since God exists; therefore the universe will never be annihilated.  There, how's that? ;-)

The universe is not everything that exists. It is all that is created. God is uncreated, unoriginate. Also, he is "the Existing One," or "the only one who truly exists" or the one from whom we have our being.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Maria

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2013, 01:34:59 AM »
No.

What makes you say that?

It's the teaching of the Church.

Reference please. Thanks.

You want a reference that annihilationism is not the teaching of the Church?

You said that it was a teaching of the Church that the universe would not be destroyed.
Can you prove this?

:)

I did not say it at all. I was echoing the respons of "No." Annihilationism is a heresy.

Can you give a citation or canon condemning "annihilationism."
Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2013, 01:38:36 AM »
No.

What makes you say that?

It's the teaching of the Church.

Reference please. Thanks.

You want a reference that annihilationism is not the teaching of the Church?

You said that it was a teaching of the Church that the universe would not be destroyed.
Can you prove this?

:)

I did not say it at all. I was echoing the respons of "No." Annihilationism is a heresy.

Can you give a citation or canon condemning "annihilationism."

Really? Are we playing this game?
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline pmpn8rGPT

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2013, 01:42:55 AM »
No.

What makes you say that?

It's the teaching of the Church.

Reference please. Thanks.

You want a reference that annihilationism is not the teaching of the Church?

You said that it was a teaching of the Church that the universe would not be destroyed.
Can you prove this?

:)

I did not say it at all. I was echoing the respons of "No." Annihilationism is a heresy.
And I wil establish my couenant with you, neither shal all flesh be cut off any more, by the waters of a flood, neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
-Genesis 9:11
Can you give a citation or canon condemning "annihilationism."
"Tomorrow, I shall no longer be here."
-Nostradamus's last words.

Offline Maria

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2013, 01:44:24 AM »
No.

What makes you say that?

It's the teaching of the Church.

Reference please. Thanks.

You want a reference that annihilationism is not the teaching of the Church?

You said that it was a teaching of the Church that the universe would not be destroyed.
Can you prove this?

:)

I did not say it at all. I was echoing the respons of "No." Annihilationism is a heresy.

Can you give a citation or canon condemning "annihilationism."

Really? Are we playing this game?

I am asking an honest question as you keep making the claim that "annihilationism" is a heresy and that it is against the teaching of the Church. Surely, then, there must be a canon that anathematizes anyone who believes in "annihilationism."
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Offline Maria

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2013, 01:47:35 AM »
No.

What makes you say that?

It's the teaching of the Church.

Reference please. Thanks.

You want a reference that annihilationism is not the teaching of the Church?

You said that it was a teaching of the Church that the universe would not be destroyed.
Can you prove this?

:)

I did not say it at all. I was echoing the respons of "No." Annihilationism is a heresy.
Can you give a citation or canon condemning "annihilationism."

And I wil establish my couenant with you, neither shal all flesh be cut off any more, by the waters of a flood, neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
-Genesis 9:11


This quote from Genesis 9 tells us that the earth will not be destroyed by a flood again.
However, Annihilationism teaches that the universe will be destroyed, doesn't it? If that were to happen, everything would be wiped out.

« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 01:49:07 AM by Maria »
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Offline pmpn8rGPT

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2013, 02:00:21 AM »
No.

What makes you say that?

It's the teaching of the Church.

Reference please. Thanks.

You want a reference that annihilationism is not the teaching of the Church?

You said that it was a teaching of the Church that the universe would not be destroyed.
Can you prove this?

:)

I did not say it at all. I was echoing the respons of "No." Annihilationism is a heresy.
Can you give a citation or canon condemning "annihilationism."

And I wil establish my couenant with you, neither shal all flesh be cut off any more, by the waters of a flood, neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
-Genesis 9:11


This quote from Genesis 9 tells us that the earth will not be destroyed by a flood again.
However, Annihilationism teaches that the universe will be destroyed, doesn't it? If that were to happen, everything would be wiped out.


Not to go Roman or anything but I think the basic idea is still here, God will not destroy the universe by a flood, technically, anything that COULD destroy the universe would be a flood (flood of water, flood of fire, flood of asteroids, flood of angels, flood of some crazy supernatural abilities etc.)
"Tomorrow, I shall no longer be here."
-Nostradamus's last words.

Offline Ioannis Climacus

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2013, 02:26:58 AM »
Maria's inquiry is fair. I am also interested in seeing canons that condemn the idea of an impermanent universe.

Matthew 24:35 certainly implies an end to the universe : "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."

That said, annihilationism, in a Christian context, means something else entirely.

« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 02:33:58 AM by Ioannis Climacus »
Note : Many of my posts (especially the ones antedating late 2012) do not reflect charity, tact, or even views I presently hold. Please forgive me for any antagonism I have caused.

Offline JamesR

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2013, 02:51:04 AM »
I don't think so. It seems to contradict our teaching that the world will be RESURRECTED. How could it be resurrected if it gets totally annihilated?
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2013, 03:04:08 AM »
No.

What makes you say that?

It's the teaching of the Church.

Reference please. Thanks.

You want a reference that annihilationism is not the teaching of the Church?

You said that it was a teaching of the Church that the universe would not be destroyed.
Can you prove this?

:)

I did not say it at all. I was echoing the respons of "No." Annihilationism is a heresy.
And I wil establish my couenant with you, neither shal all flesh be cut off any more, by the waters of a flood, neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
-Genesis 9:11
Can you give a citation or canon condemning "annihilationism."

This is God saying He will not destroy the world again by flood.  That's it.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2013, 03:06:49 AM »
Maria's inquiry is fair. I am also interested in seeing canons that condemn the idea of an impermanent universe.

Matthew 24:35 certainly implies an end to the universe : "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."

That said, annihilationism, in a Christian context, means something else entirely.


Agreed.  From what I have been exposed to, the Orthodox Church has not taken an official stand on end time prophecy.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2013, 03:07:29 AM »
I don't think so. It seems to contradict our teaching that the world will be RESURRECTED. How could it be resurrected if it gets totally annihilated?
I seems that's the only way to get it done.

Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2013, 03:44:10 AM »
I don't think so. It seems to contradict our teaching that the world will be RESURRECTED. How could it be resurrected if it gets totally annihilated?

God hasn't told us everything. No one really knows if 10 trillion years after the resurrection and 10 trillion years of nothing but endless adoration he'll decide "ok, done with this one." and pull the plug.

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2013, 04:03:33 AM »
Will God destroy/annihilate the Universe/matter at some point, or even the entire Creation?
No, because humans will exist as resurrected body-minds for eternity.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2013, 04:38:58 AM »
Will God destroy/annihilate the Universe/matter at some point, or even the entire Creation?
No, because humans will exist as resurrected body-minds for eternity.

What do you mean by 'resurrected body-minds' ? So is the Universe eternal than?
Right here, right now.

Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2013, 04:40:26 AM »
Since the universe is basically everything that exists, it could not be annihilated without annihilating God, since God exists; therefore the universe will never be annihilated.  There, how's that? ;-)

So there is nothing outside this material Universe? Where is heaven or hell than?
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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2013, 04:43:30 AM »
I don't think so. It seems to contradict our teaching that the world will be RESURRECTED. How could it be resurrected if it gets totally annihilated?

What is the purpose of the Resurrection, because I miss it. If your souls continues to exist as an entity in another world better than this why bring it back to flesh? Also is the Universe eternal?
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Offline Jetavan

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2013, 04:48:40 AM »
Will God destroy/annihilate the Universe/matter at some point, or even the entire Creation?
No, because humans will exist as resurrected body-minds for eternity.

What do you mean by 'resurrected body-minds' ? So is the Universe eternal than?
The Universe includes everything material. Our resurrected bodies will be material. (A resurrected body implies  a resurrected mind, which is also material, thus, 'body-mind'.) These body-minds (and thus the Universe) will be eternally existing.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 04:50:14 AM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2013, 04:51:26 AM »
Will God destroy/annihilate the Universe/matter at some point, or even the entire Creation?
No, because humans will exist as resurrected body-minds for eternity.

What do you mean by 'resurrected body-minds' ? So is the Universe eternal than?
The Universe includes everything material. Our resurrected bodies will be material. (A resurrected body implies  a resurrected mind, which is also material, thus, 'body-mind'.) These body-minds (and thus the Universe) will be eternally existing.

Why all this spiritual mumbo jumbo than if everything resolves to matter ?
Right here, right now.

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2013, 10:45:32 AM »
Will God destroy/annihilate the Universe/matter at some point, or even the entire Creation?
No, because humans will exist as resurrected body-minds for eternity.

What do you mean by 'resurrected body-minds' ? So is the Universe eternal than?
The Universe includes everything material. Our resurrected bodies will be material. (A resurrected body implies  a resurrected mind, which is also material, thus, 'body-mind'.) These body-minds (and thus the Universe) will be eternally existing.

Why all this spiritual mumbo jumbo than if everything resolves to matter ?
Spirit is simply a different type of matter. God is beyond both spirit and matter.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2013, 12:52:23 PM »
Will God destroy/annihilate the Universe/matter at some point, or even the entire Creation?
No, because humans will exist as resurrected body-minds for eternity.

What do you mean by 'resurrected body-minds' ? So is the Universe eternal than?
The Universe includes everything material. Our resurrected bodies will be material. (A resurrected body implies  a resurrected mind, which is also material, thus, 'body-mind'.) These body-minds (and thus the Universe) will be eternally existing.

Why all this spiritual mumbo jumbo than if everything resolves to matter ?
Spirit is simply a different type of matter. God is beyond both spirit and matter.

Yes I know some fathers say that God is the purest Spirit and that the spirits of angels and humans are thick in comparision with Him but what do you mean by that? Do you mean that we should be more materialistic-centred ? Do you believe in the existence of a self-conscient soul after death? What happens with that soul when someone dies?
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2013, 03:02:01 PM »
Quote
What happens with that soul when someone dies?

There are different opinions in that regard. As far as I know, the Church has never made a dogmatic decision on what exactly happens after death.
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Offline Jetavan

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2013, 04:58:13 PM »
Will God destroy/annihilate the Universe/matter at some point, or even the entire Creation?
No, because humans will exist as resurrected body-minds for eternity.

What do you mean by 'resurrected body-minds' ? So is the Universe eternal than?
The Universe includes everything material. Our resurrected bodies will be material. (A resurrected body implies  a resurrected mind, which is also material, thus, 'body-mind'.) These body-minds (and thus the Universe) will be eternally existing.

Why all this spiritual mumbo jumbo than if everything resolves to matter ?
Spirit is simply a different type of matter. God is beyond both spirit and matter.

Yes I know some fathers say that God is the purest Spirit and that the spirits of angels and humans are thick in comparision with Him but what do you mean by that?
God is ultimately indescribable. It's often easier to say what God is not.
Quote
Do you mean that we should be more materialistic-centred ?
Some people probably do need to pay more attention to practical affairs.
Quote
Do you believe in the existence of a self-conscient soul after death?
Sure.
Quote
What happens with that soul when someone dies?
That's a bit vague, but what happens to the soul after death, is likely dependent upon how one lives one's life before death.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 04:59:31 PM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Destruction
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2013, 05:00:49 PM »
Why all this spiritual mumbo jumbo than if everything resolves to matter ?
The spiritual and material are not opposed.

What tradition do you come from?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 05:00:59 PM by NicholasMyra »
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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