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Author Topic: Adam and Eve, Tree of Knowledge, Fall  (Read 681 times) Average Rating: 0
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FlickFlack
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« on: January 26, 2013, 07:05:18 PM »

What was Eden? Where did Adam really "fell" from and why? What was the problem?
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« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2013, 07:28:40 PM »

Eden was paradise. Adam and Eve fell from self-will or pride.
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« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2013, 07:37:08 PM »

Eden was paradise. Adam and Eve fell from self-will or pride.

Another broad answer. What is Eden(paradise)? An actual place? Was the garden of Eden an actual places, was the tree of knowledge of good and evil an actual tree? What was that particular self-wil or pried? Explain yourself. No more broad answers.
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« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2013, 07:40:53 PM »

Eden was paradise. Adam and Eve fell from self-will or pride.

Another broad answer. What is Eden(paradise)? An actual place? Was the garden of Eden an actual places, was the tree of knowledge of good and evil an actual tree? What was that particular self-wil or pried? Explain yourself. No more broad answers.

I think it was Plato who commented on how it was much easier to ask questions than to come up with answers. You sure are asking a lot of questions tonight. Wink

My opinion: Eden was not an actual place, nor was the tree a literal tree. The self-willed action and thought was thinking that one could become like God apart from cooperation with God. In other words, Adam and Eve thought they could do it on their own. God told them that if they tried to do it on their own then God would let them have their way. They tried anyway.
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FlickFlack
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« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2013, 07:52:22 PM »

Eden was paradise. Adam and Eve fell from self-will or pride.

Another broad answer. What is Eden(paradise)? An actual place? Was the garden of Eden an actual places, was the tree of knowledge of good and evil an actual tree? What was that particular self-wil or pried? Explain yourself. No more broad answers.

I think it was Plato who commented on how it was much easier to ask questions than to come up with answers. You sure are asking a lot of questions tonight. Wink

My opinion: Eden was not an actual place, nor was the tree a literal tree. The self-willed action and thought was thinking that one could become like God apart from cooperation with God. In other words, Adam and Eve thought they could do it on their own. God told them that if they tried to do it on their own then God would let them have their way. They tried anyway.

Yes I am.. Let's say they could be one of the last chances I am giving to Christianity.. Too bad you(pl) are not treating my questions with consistency, it only drives me further away from Christianity whom is represented by people..

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« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2013, 07:53:53 PM »

An on-topic answer (trust me on this one) from St. Irenaeus of Lyons:

Quote
Those, therefore, who desert the preaching of the Church, call in question the knowledge of the holy presbyters, not taking into consideration of how much greater consequence is a religious man, even in a private station, than a blasphemous and impudent sophist. Now, such are all the heretics, and those who imagine that they have hit upon something more beyond the truth, so that by following those things already mentioned, proceeding on their way variously, inharmoniously, and foolishly, not keeping always to the same opinions with regard to the same things, as blind men are led by the blind, they shall deservedly fall into the ditch of ignorance lying in their path, ever seeking and never finding out the truth. It behoves us, therefore, to avoid their doctrines, and to take careful heed lest we suffer any injury from them; but to flee to the Church, and be brought up in her bosom, and be nourished with the Lord’s Scriptures. For the Church has been planted as a garden (paradisus) in this world; therefore says the Spirit of God, “Thou mayest freely eat from every tree of the garden,” that is, Eat ye from every Scripture of the Lord; but ye shall not eat with an uplifted mind, nor touch any heretical discord. For these men do profess that they have themselves the knowledge of good and evil; and they set their own impious minds above the God who made them. They therefore form opinions on what is beyond the limits of the understanding. For this cause also the apostle says, “Be not wise beyond what it is fitting to be wise, but be wise prudently,” that we be not cast forth by eating of the “knowledge” of these men (that knowledge which knows more than it should do) from the paradise of life. Into this paradise the Lord has introduced those who obey His call, “summing up in Himself all things which are in heaven, and which are on earth;” 4626 but the things in heaven are spiritual, while those on earth constitute the dispensation in human nature. These things, therefore, He recapitulated in Himself: by uniting man to the Spirit, and causing the Spirit to dwell in man, He is Himself made the head of the Spirit, and gives the Spirit to be the head of man: for through Him (the Spirit) we see, and hear, and speak.

Against heresies 5, 20
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« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2013, 07:54:24 PM »

Well if I am driving you further away from Christianity then I won't continue to speak to you, as obviously I am doing more damage than good. God bless Smiley

EDIT--This sounds snarky, which was not my intention, but I guess it's too late to erase it now. Well anyway...
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« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2013, 07:54:59 PM »

Do you know of any religion that is not represented by people?

And as for your original question: Why does it matter so much to you if the account of Paradise and the Tree is literal or not?
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FlickFlack
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« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2013, 08:05:48 PM »

Do you know of any religion that is not represented by people?

And as for your original question: Why does it matter so much to you if the account of Paradise and the Tree is literal or not?

no.. the people are the mirror of their religion.. that is the point.. their conduct in religious context(even questions/answers kind of thing) says a lot about their religion.. I see a lot of my questions being treated with superficiality from the beggining on this forum and even with rudeness from some.. perhaps people should be more careful and more consistent when representing their religion?
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« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2013, 08:09:13 PM »


And as for your original question: Why does it matter so much to you if the account of Paradise and the Tree is literal or not?

It matters to me to understand what the first man were like from the Christian point of view, what did they really and cryptically do wrong, what was the fall, why is the world in this state(was it always in this state of decay/suffering) and what is the purpose of man and what happens when we die.
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« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2013, 08:15:51 PM »

no.. the people are the mirror of their religion.. that is the point.. their conduct in religious context(even questions/answers kind of thing) says a lot about their religion.. I see a lot of my questions being treated with superficiality from the beggining on this forum and even with rudeness from some.. perhaps people should be more careful and more consistent when representing their religion?

As far as I have seen, there has been no rudeness towards you. You have been given answers, detailed and thought-out ones. But when you ask 'what X or Y means to you', of course you're going to get different answers from different people. That's not inconsistency, it's personal perspective. It's not all cut and dried, and you can't have it all spoon-fed. We don't have the answers to everything - nobody does. God has given you a brain. Use it or lose it!
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 08:16:31 PM by Arachne » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2013, 08:27:39 PM »

Some people, like you are satisfied with an unreasonable religion. I am not like that. With that being said just look at the last threads I started today. Most of the replies are non explicative answers , answered in the most broadness, general and opened to interpretation manner. This kind of religion is an infection to my eyes and an insult to my person. A disrespectful religion that either shows pure meanness or an ignorant-base defence mechanism. None of them are virtuos options.
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« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2013, 08:29:53 PM »

Eden was paradise. Adam and Eve fell from self-will or pride.

Another broad answer. What is Eden(paradise)? An actual place? Was the garden of Eden an actual places, was the tree of knowledge of good and evil an actual tree? What was that particular self-wil or pried? Explain yourself. No more broad answers.

My opinion...Eden was an actual place, the tree of knowledge was a real tree and Adam and Eve were real people.  

They fell because they disobeyed God, which ultimately is what sin really is, disobedience to God.  They chose to do what they wanted rather than what God wanted, even though He warned them of the results.  They, like so many others since, listened to the whisper of Satan to be convinced they know more than God.  Once they fell, they were forced to leave paradise, the entrance was closed, hidden, and protected.  
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« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2013, 08:32:13 PM »

Some people, like you are satisfied with an unreasonable religion. I am not like that. With that being said just look at the last threads I started today. Most of the replies are non explicative answers , answered in the most broadness, general and opened to interpretation manner. This kind of religion is an infection to my eyes and an insult to my person. A disrespectful religion that either shows pure meanness or an ignorant-base defence mechanism. None of them are virtuos options.

So, in short, your issue is not that you didn't get answers, but that you didn't like the answers you were given. Gotcha.
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« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2013, 08:32:49 PM »

This kind of religion is an infection to my eyes and an insult to my person. A disrespectful religion that either shows pure meanness or an ignorant-base defence mechanism. None of them are virtuos options.

You need to know how to earn respect before you can expect it. People are mirrors in which you see yourself reflected. And it may not always be a pretty picture...
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« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2013, 08:38:07 PM »


And as for your original question: Why does it matter so much to you if the account of Paradise and the Tree is literal or not?

It matters to me to understand what the first man were like from the Christian point of view, what did they really and cryptically do wrong, what was the fall, why is the world in this state(was it always in this state of decay/suffering) and what is the purpose of man and what happens when we die.
They were just as we are today, imperfect.  The difference is, they were given a perfect start and messed it all up.  We are given a stained beginning and are allowed to work toward perfection.  The fall was the introduction of self over God.  The world is in its present sick and revolting state because over the centuries man has continued to do what he wants rather than what God wants.  We have gotten so far off track, most people don’t even know how to follow God anymore.  They continue to twist and stretch the message of Christianity to fit their own desires.  

I have no clear answer for you as to what the purpose of man is other than fellowship with God.  In this life, we don’t always get the answers we seek to our questions.  When we die, it’s very simple.  We either get to spend eternity in the presence of God or we are punished for eternity.  Of course, depending on who you ask will depend on the specific answer you are given.
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FlickFlack
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« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2013, 08:39:45 PM »


And as for your original question: Why does it matter so much to you if the account of Paradise and the Tree is literal or not?

It matters to me to understand what the first man were like from the Christian point of view, what did they really and cryptically do wrong, what was the fall, why is the world in this state(was it always in this state of decay/suffering) and what is the purpose of man and what happens when we die.
They were just as we are today, imperfect.  The difference is, they were given a perfect start and messed it all up.  We are given a stained beginning and are allowed to work toward perfection.  The fall was the introduction of self over God.  The world is in its present sick and revolting state because over the centuries man has continued to do what he wants rather than what God wants.  We have gotten so far off track, most people don’t even know how to follow God anymore.  They continue to twist and stretch the message of Christianity to fit their own desires.  

I have no clear answer for you as to what the purpose of man is other than fellowship with God.  In this life, we don’t always get the answers we seek to our questions.  When we die, it’s very simple.  We either get to spend eternity in the presence of God or we are punished for eternity.  Of course, depending on who you ask will depend on the specific answer you are given.


The question is how and why.

Than I am going to start being a Christian when I die. Very simple Smiley
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FlickFlack
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« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2013, 08:44:00 PM »

Eden was paradise. Adam and Eve fell from self-will or pride.

Another broad answer. What is Eden(paradise)? An actual place? Was the garden of Eden an actual places, was the tree of knowledge of good and evil an actual tree? What was that particular self-wil or pried? Explain yourself. No more broad answers.

My opinion...Eden was an actual place, the tree of knowledge was a real tree and Adam and Eve were real people.  

They fell because they disobeyed God, which ultimately is what sin really is, disobedience to God.  They chose to do what they wanted rather than what God wanted, even though He warned them of the results.  They, like so many others since, listened to the whisper of Satan to be convinced they know more than God.  Once they fell, they were forced to leave paradise, the entrance was closed, hidden, and protected.  


So where was Paradise than?
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Kerdy
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« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2013, 09:10:18 PM »

Eden was paradise. Adam and Eve fell from self-will or pride.

Another broad answer. What is Eden(paradise)? An actual place? Was the garden of Eden an actual places, was the tree of knowledge of good and evil an actual tree? What was that particular self-wil or pried? Explain yourself. No more broad answers.

My opinion...Eden was an actual place, the tree of knowledge was a real tree and Adam and Eve were real people.  

They fell because they disobeyed God, which ultimately is what sin really is, disobedience to God.  They chose to do what they wanted rather than what God wanted, even though He warned them of the results.  They, like so many others since, listened to the whisper of Satan to be convinced they know more than God.  Once they fell, they were forced to leave paradise, the entrance was closed, hidden, and protected.  


So where was Paradise than?

I don'y know.  It was "closed, hidden and protected".
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« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2013, 09:11:27 PM »


And as for your original question: Why does it matter so much to you if the account of Paradise and the Tree is literal or not?

It matters to me to understand what the first man were like from the Christian point of view, what did they really and cryptically do wrong, what was the fall, why is the world in this state(was it always in this state of decay/suffering) and what is the purpose of man and what happens when we die.
They were just as we are today, imperfect.  The difference is, they were given a perfect start and messed it all up.  We are given a stained beginning and are allowed to work toward perfection.  The fall was the introduction of self over God.  The world is in its present sick and revolting state because over the centuries man has continued to do what he wants rather than what God wants.  We have gotten so far off track, most people don’t even know how to follow God anymore.  They continue to twist and stretch the message of Christianity to fit their own desires.  

I have no clear answer for you as to what the purpose of man is other than fellowship with God.  In this life, we don’t always get the answers we seek to our questions.  When we die, it’s very simple.  We either get to spend eternity in the presence of God or we are punished for eternity.  Of course, depending on who you ask will depend on the specific answer you are given.


The question is how and why.

Than I am going to start being a Christian when I die. Very simple Smiley

I answered the questions you asked.  If you have additional questions, please post them.
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« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2013, 09:15:57 PM »

Than I am going to start being a Christian when I die. Very simple Smiley

You are on to something: only when you start dying (to your ego/the flesh/the old man/your old 'reasonable' understanding), will you become a Christian.

An Elder said one cannot live as a Christian, but only die as a Christian. 
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 09:17:16 PM by Romaios » Logged
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