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FlickFlack
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« on: January 26, 2013, 07:00:12 PM »

What is Sin? How would you define Sin? Let's start with the sexual sin/s. At which point does an sexual act become a sin and why?
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« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2013, 07:25:28 PM »

Sexual sin becomes sin the moment you start to enjoy yourself because anything and everything fun is pretty much a sin.

Okay that was just an uncalled for joke. In reality--judging from the little bit I know about our sexual ethics--I think that all sexuality becomes a sin the moment it becomes about purely satisfying yourself and not wanting to satisfy your partner. It's not supposed to be carnal or purely selfish; which is why we're also not allowed to masturbate.
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« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2013, 07:29:46 PM »

There's also the M word - marriage. Sexual activity outside marriage, whether before or during, is a sin. There are only two lifestyle options, as far as sex is concerned: sanctified monogamy within marriage, and celibacy.
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« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2013, 07:31:10 PM »

Sin is falling short of the goodness and righteousness we are called to. It is "missing the mark" of righteousness with the arrows of thought and action.
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« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2013, 07:34:31 PM »

Sin is falling short of the goodness and righteousness we are called to. It is "missing the mark" of righteousness with the arrows of thought and action.

And how do we know what that goodness and righteousness is?
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« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2013, 07:36:48 PM »

Sin is falling short of the goodness and righteousness we are called to. It is "missing the mark" of righteousness with the arrows of thought and action.

And how do we know what that goodness and righteousness is?

God has told us through the Scripture, the Church Fathers, the saints, etc.
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« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2013, 07:39:37 PM »

Sin is falling short of the goodness and righteousness we are called to. It is "missing the mark" of righteousness with the arrows of thought and action.

And how do we know what that goodness and righteousness is?

God has told us through the Scripture, the Church Fathers, the saints, etc.

Isn't sin something that harms your neighbour and/or yourself?
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« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2013, 07:41:56 PM »

Sin is falling short of the goodness and righteousness we are called to. It is "missing the mark" of righteousness with the arrows of thought and action.

And how do we know what that goodness and righteousness is?

God has told us through the Scripture, the Church Fathers, the saints, etc.

Isn't sin something that harms your neighbour and/or yourself?

Sometimes, yes, though that depends on what you mean by harm. Sometimes harm is needed and righteous. It depends on the situation.
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« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2013, 07:45:47 PM »

Sometimes, yes, though that depends on what you mean by harm. Sometimes harm is needed and righteous. It depends on the situation.

I'd say it's hurt that's needed and righteous, not harm. Not all hurt is harmful, just as not all harm is hurtful.
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« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2013, 07:47:51 PM »

Sometimes, yes, though that depends on what you mean by harm. Sometimes harm is needed and righteous. It depends on the situation.

I'd say it's hurt that's needed and righteous, not harm. Not all hurt is harmful, just as not all harm is hurtful.

Good point
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« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2013, 07:58:35 PM »

Sin is falling short of the goodness and righteousness we are called to. It is "missing the mark" of righteousness with the arrows of thought and action.

And how do we know what that goodness and righteousness is?

God has told us through the Scripture, the Church Fathers, the saints, etc.

Isn't sin something that harms your neighbour and/or yourself?

Sometimes, yes, though that depends on what you mean by harm. Sometimes harm is needed and righteous. It depends on the situation.

Ok.. So if I harm no one through my sexual intercorse or if my girlfriend agrees on an open relationship than there is no sin, no? Or if I lie to protect someone? If I get drunk occasionally, smoke, do drugs?

If not, where is the problem, where is the problem with <<Sin>> .. Why does God warn to leave/punish us because of Sin?
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« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2013, 08:01:14 PM »

Ok.. So if I harm no one through my sexual intercorse or if my girlfriend agrees on an open relationship than there is no sin, no?

No, that's just two people agreeing to sin together.

There's also the M word - marriage. Sexual activity outside marriage, whether before or during, is a sin. There are only two lifestyle options, as far as sex is concerned: sanctified monogamy within marriage, and celibacy.

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« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2013, 08:10:29 PM »

Ok.. So if I harm no one through my sexual intercorse or if my girlfriend agrees on an open relationship than there is no sin, no?

No, that's just two people agreeing to sin together.

There's also the M word - marriage. Sexual activity outside marriage, whether before or during, is a sin. There are only two lifestyle options, as far as sex is concerned: sanctified monogamy within marriage, and celibacy.



Ok explain why is that a sin than?
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« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2013, 08:12:29 PM »

Ok.. So if I harm no one through my sexual intercorse or if my girlfriend agrees on an open relationship than there is no sin, no?

No, that's just two people agreeing to sin together.

There's also the M word - marriage. Sexual activity outside marriage, whether before or during, is a sin. There are only two lifestyle options, as far as sex is concerned: sanctified monogamy within marriage, and celibacy.



Ok explain why is that a sin than?

Because it violates the covenant of marriage, which specifies only one partner.
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« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2013, 08:16:45 PM »

Ok.. So if I harm no one through my sexual intercorse or if my girlfriend agrees on an open relationship than there is no sin, no? Or if I lie to protect someone? If I get drunk occasionally, smoke, do drugs?

If not, where is the problem, where is the problem with <<Sin>> .. Why does God warn to leave/punish us because of Sin?

The beginning of sin is sweet - the end is bitter. You probably haven't reached the end yet.

God doesn't punish anyone: you're merely reaping what you sow (like karma). If you use your girlfriend for (be it consensual) pleasure, a time will come when you will feel used and dumped too - so will she. Sooner or later, you become the slave of pleasure, hooked, unable to have a balanced, fruitful and accomplished existence.   

If you lead a carefree life, you cast out the Holy Spirit and follow the flesh (your own ego, which separates you from God and other people). Your body instead of being a temple of the Spirit, becomes a den for robbers (evil spirits: lust, greed, pride, etc). 

To know your own sin and sincerely repent for it is the most certain sign of the grace of the Spirit: "he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are worked in God" (John 3:21). 

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FlickFlack
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« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2013, 08:30:14 PM »

Ok.. So if I harm no one through my sexual intercorse or if my girlfriend agrees on an open relationship than there is no sin, no?

No, that's just two people agreeing to sin together.

There's also the M word - marriage. Sexual activity outside marriage, whether before or during, is a sin. There are only two lifestyle options, as far as sex is concerned: sanctified monogamy within marriage, and celibacy.



Ok explain why is that a sin than?

Because it violates the covenant of marriage, which specifies only one partner.

OMG! WITHOUT circular reasoning.

Seriously I have the impression some of your iqs is below the average.

Why would it be wrong to have two partners? Whom does it hurt?
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« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2013, 08:30:32 PM »

What is Sin? How would you define Sin? Let's start with the sexual sin/s. At which point does an sexual act become a sin and why?
First we should probably do away with a rather bizarre fixation on sins done with the sexual organs. Or those organs that can be succesfully adapted for sexual enjoyment.even if thee are sins I fail to see them as very important. Unless you see over eating as sin that will imbalance cosmic equilibrium. And for most people a certain amount of sex -doesn't have to be random and promiscuous- is indeed beneficial towards a normal, balanced existence . Sublimation / sex deprivation can occasionally produce great art . But only occasionally .
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« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2013, 08:33:27 PM »

What is Sin? How would you define Sin? Let's start with the sexual sin/s. At which point does an sexual act become a sin and why?
First we should probably do away with a rather bizarre fixation on sins done with the sexual organs. Or those organs that can be succesfully adapted for sexual enjoyment.even if thee are sins I fail to see them as very important. Unless you see over eating as sin that will imbalance cosmic equilibrium. And for most people a certain amount of sex -doesn't have to be random and promiscuous- is indeed beneficial towards a normal, balanced existence . Sublimation / sex deprivation can occasionally produce great art . But only occasionally .
You're forgetting that a lot of the American Orthodox, hell Americans in general, are grossly puritanical.

We gotta get away from that first.

EDIT: I will say it's sadly funny that FlickFlack would bring up the first sin as being a sexual one. Let me take a guess at what nationality he is...
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« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2013, 08:35:31 PM »

Ok.. So if I harm no one through my sexual intercorse or if my girlfriend agrees on an open relationship than there is no sin, no?

No, that's just two people agreeing to sin together.

There's also the M word - marriage. Sexual activity outside marriage, whether before or during, is a sin. There are only two lifestyle options, as far as sex is concerned: sanctified monogamy within marriage, and celibacy.



Ok explain why is that a sin than?

Because it violates the covenant of marriage, which specifies only one partner.

OMG! WITHOUT circular reasoning.

Seriously I have the impression some of your iqs is below the average.

Why would it be wrong to have two partners? Whom does it hurt?

If you made the rules of the partnership, sure. But you're not.

The concept of sin varies from one religious/moral system to another. In the system we are discussing, polyamory is considered a sin. Period. You either accept it or move on. But you don't get to negotiate the terms.
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« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2013, 08:37:20 PM »

Ok.. So if I harm no one through my sexual intercorse or if my girlfriend agrees on an open relationship than there is no sin, no? Or if I lie to protect someone? If I get drunk occasionally, smoke, do drugs?

If not, where is the problem, where is the problem with <<Sin>> .. Why does God warn to leave/punish us because of Sin?

The beginning of sin is sweet - the end is bitter. You probably haven't reached the end yet.

God doesn't punish anyone: you're merely reaping what you sow (like karma). If you use your girlfriend for (be it consensual) pleasure, a time will come when you will feel used and dumped too - so will she. Sooner or later, you become the slave of pleasure, hooked, unable to have a balanced, fruitful and accomplished existence.   

If you lead a carefree life, you cast out the Holy Spirit and follow the flesh (your own ego, which separates you from God and other people). Your body instead of being a temple of the Spirit, becomes a den for robbers (evil spirits: lust, greed, pride, etc). 

To know your own sin and sincerely repent for it is the most certain sign of the grace of the Spirit: "he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are worked in God" (John 3:21). 




Give a definition of sin.

[OFFTOPIC]Why would the Holy Spirit leave unless he wants to? It's not like we are stronger than God now are we. So if God wills and He is so benevolent than He wouldn't leave us, like never.. [/OFFTOPIC]


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« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2013, 08:38:08 PM »

Ok.. So if I harm no one through my sexual intercorse or if my girlfriend agrees on an open relationship than there is no sin, no?

No, that's just two people agreeing to sin together.

There's also the M word - marriage. Sexual activity outside marriage, whether before or during, is a sin. There are only two lifestyle options, as far as sex is concerned: sanctified monogamy within marriage, and celibacy.



Ok explain why is that a sin than?

Because it violates the covenant of marriage, which specifies only one partner.

OMG! WITHOUT circular reasoning.

Seriously I have the impression some of your iqs is below the average.

Why would it be wrong to have two partners? Whom does it hurt?

If you made the rules of the partnership, sure. But you're not.

The concept of sin varies from one religious/moral system to another. In the system we are discussing, polyamory is considered a sin. Period. You either accept it or move on. But you don't get to negotiate the terms.

Why? You still haven't gave the definition of sin.
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« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2013, 08:40:57 PM »

Unless you see over eating as sin that will imbalance cosmic equilibrium.

You only have to look at what rearing cattle intensively does to the "cosmic equilibrium", should everyone on the planet be able to enjoy a couple of beefsteaks - let's say on a weekly basis. But most don't get that privilege because some are overeating.  
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« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2013, 08:42:02 PM »

Unless you see over eating as sin that will imbalance cosmic equilibrium.

You only have to look at what rearing cattle intensively does to the "cosmic equilibrium", should everyone on the planet be able to enjoy a couple of beefsteaks - let's say on a weekly basis. But most don't get that privilege because some are overeating.  
Hey I think a good argument could be made for Capitalism being a sin...
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« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2013, 08:43:10 PM »

Ok.. So if I harm no one through my sexual intercorse or if my girlfriend agrees on an open relationship than there is no sin, no?

No, that's just two people agreeing to sin together.

There's also the M word - marriage. Sexual activity outside marriage, whether before or during, is a sin. There are only two lifestyle options, as far as sex is concerned: sanctified monogamy within marriage, and celibacy.



Ok explain why is that a sin than?

Because it violates the covenant of marriage, which specifies only one partner.

OMG! WITHOUT circular reasoning.

Seriously I have the impression some of your iqs is below the average.

Why would it be wrong to have two partners? Whom does it hurt?

If you made the rules of the partnership, sure. But you're not.

The concept of sin varies from one religious/moral system to another. In the system we are discussing, polyamory is considered a sin. Period. You either accept it or move on. But you don't get to negotiate the terms.

Why? You still haven't gave the definition of sin.

sin
n.
1. A transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate.
2. Theology
a. Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.
b. A condition of estrangement from God resulting from such disobedience.
3. Something regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly wrong.
intr.v. sinned, sin·ning, sins
1. To violate a religious or moral law.
2. To commit an offense or violation.
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« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2013, 08:55:02 PM »

Give a definition of sin.

You have an obsession with definitions. You'd love medieval Summas.

It doesn't serve. Everyone needs his own consciousness and the grace of the Holy Spirit to define sin, because almost anything one does has the potential to be sinful, depending which spirit you let yourself be inspired by when you do it. My words here to you may be sinful, if I write them for any other reason than your welfare and salvation.

A definition of sin would indeed be larger than life, if it were to be exhaustive. Sin is legion. It takes a very finely tuned mind (heart) and the gift of discretion of spirits to tell for sure what's sin and what's not. One's judgement, no matter how sharp, is not enough - that is why in Church one discovers his thoughts to an Elder or a Spiritual Father and asks for his guidance and prayer. Without obedience to another, one cannot escape pride, the ultimate sin. 
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« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2013, 08:55:10 PM »

What is Sin? How would you define Sin? Let's start with the sexual sin/s. At which point does an sexual act become a sin and why?

Why distinguish between different types of sin?  Sin is sin, regardless of what type you support or deny.  Sin is anything disobedient to God, anything which separates you from God, etc.  
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« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2013, 08:55:48 PM »

Unless you see over eating as sin that will imbalance cosmic equilibrium.

You only have to look at what rearing cattle intensively does to the "cosmic equilibrium", should everyone on the planet be able to enjoy a couple of beefsteaks - let's say on a weekly basis. But most don't get that privilege because some are overeating.  
Hey I think a good argument could be made for Capitalism being a sin...
or not...
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« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2013, 08:57:03 PM »

Unless you see over eating as sin that will imbalance cosmic equilibrium.

You only have to look at what rearing cattle intensively does to the "cosmic equilibrium", should everyone on the planet be able to enjoy a couple of beefsteaks - let's say on a weekly basis. But most don't get that privilege because some are overeating.  
Hey I think a good argument could be made for Capitalism being a sin...

Then, one is a Capitalist ("filthy burgeois") whenever one overindulges in food.
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« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2013, 08:59:53 PM »

Unless you see over eating as sin that will imbalance cosmic equilibrium.

You only have to look at what rearing cattle intensively does to the "cosmic equilibrium", should everyone on the planet be able to enjoy a couple of beefsteaks - let's say on a weekly basis. But most don't get that privilege because some are overeating.  
Hey I think a good argument could be made for Capitalism being a sin...
or not...
Exploitation, serving mammon rather than God, etc.
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« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2013, 09:02:26 PM »

Unless you see over eating as sin that will imbalance cosmic equilibrium.

You only have to look at what rearing cattle intensively does to the "cosmic equilibrium", should everyone on the planet be able to enjoy a couple of beefsteaks - let's say on a weekly basis. But most don't get that privilege because some are overeating.  
Hey I think a good argument could be made for Capitalism being a sin...
or not...
Exploitation, serving mammon rather than God, etc.

or not...
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« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2013, 09:22:51 PM »

What I don't understand is why some things are condemned by God and thus considered sins if they do not harm anyone at all. We can talk all we want about it eventually harming the person, but that's just child's chatter that our parents tell us to make us feel good. In the real world, people do bad things all the time and don't suffer for it or face any consequences. One good example of this is fornication or polygamy--if everyone consents to it and contraceptives are used to prevent unwanted pregnancy or transmission of diseases, why exactly is it wrong? Heck, how about two monogamous people who haven't received the Marriage sacrament yet but are cohabiting and raising a family? What difference does it really make?
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« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2013, 09:31:16 PM »

One good example of this is fornication or polygamy--if everyone consents to it and contraceptives are used to prevent unwanted pregnancy or transmission of diseases, why exactly is it wrong? Heck, how about two monogamous people who haven't received the Marriage sacrament yet but are cohabiting and raising a family? What difference does it really make?

Psalm 18/19:12 "Who can understand sins? from my hidden ones cleanse me, O Lord."

Romans 3:20 "Through the law comes the knowledge of sin."
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« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2013, 09:49:45 PM »

Unless you see over eating as sin that will imbalance cosmic equilibrium.

You only have to look at what rearing cattle intensively does to the "cosmic equilibrium", should everyone on the planet be able to enjoy a couple of beefsteaks - let's say on a weekly basis. But most don't get that privilege because some are overeating.  
Hey I think a good argument could be made for Capitalism being a sin...
or not...
Exploitation, serving mammon rather than God, etc.

or not...
OKAY
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« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2013, 09:59:05 PM »

What I don't understand is why some things are condemned by God and thus considered sins if they do not harm anyone at all.
Because sin always harms someone, even if it is not understood how until much later.  Our sins have a nasty habit of returning to bite us in the posterior.

We can talk all we want about it eventually harming the person, but that's just child's chatter that our parents tell us to make us feel good.

Nonsense.

In the real world, people do bad things all the time and don't suffer for it or face any consequences.

Until it catches up to them.
One good example of this is fornication or polygamy--if everyone consents to it and contraceptives are used to prevent unwanted pregnancy or transmission of diseases, why exactly is it wrong?

Well, for starters, you NEVER prevent any of these things.  You only reduce the chances by an unacceptable percentage.

Second, its wrong because it’s always been wrong, ever since God said it was wrong.

Heck, how about two monogamous people who haven't received the Marriage sacrament yet but are cohabiting and raising a family? What difference does it really make?

Have they had the opportunity to get married?  If so, which is case, they have no excuse for living in sin.  It makes a difference because we either live for God or we live for ourselves and eventually, this life ends and we are held responsible for this life and what we did with this life.
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« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2013, 09:59:53 PM »

Why would the Holy Spirit leave unless he wants to? It's not like we are stronger than God now are we. So if God wills and He is so benevolent than He wouldn't leave us, like never..

The grace of the Holy Spirit is not irresistible (at least, not according to Orthodox theology). Our free will (the choices we make) can resist it.  
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« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2013, 10:14:22 PM »

What I don't understand is why some things are condemned by God and thus considered sins if they do not harm anyone at all.
Because sin always harms someone, even if it is not understood how until much later.  Our sins have a nasty habit of returning to bite us in the posterior.
Capitalism harms people.
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« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2013, 10:18:05 PM »

What I don't understand is why some things are condemned by God and thus considered sins if they do not harm anyone at all.
Because sin always harms someone, even if it is not understood how until much later.  Our sins have a nasty habit of returning to bite us in the posterior.
Capitalism harms people.

or not...
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« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2013, 10:18:46 PM »

What I don't understand is why some things are condemned by God and thus considered sins if they do not harm anyone at all.
Because sin always harms someone, even if it is not understood how until much later.  Our sins have a nasty habit of returning to bite us in the posterior.
Capitalism harms people.

or not...
So not once in the history of capitalism has it harmed someone?
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« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2013, 10:24:19 PM »

What I don't understand is why some things are condemned by God and thus considered sins if they do not harm anyone at all.
Because sin always harms someone, even if it is not understood how until much later.  Our sins have a nasty habit of returning to bite us in the posterior.
Capitalism harms people.

or not...
So not once in the history of capitalism has it harmed someone?
Roll Eyes
There is this really cool place OC.net invented to talk about politics.  You should look into it.
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« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2013, 12:26:49 AM »

Actually there was a capitalism thread in non-religious:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,31636.0.html

And since we are discussing sin and capitalism, obviously this is a faith issue. So are you going to answer the question or dodge it?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 12:27:11 AM by Achronos » Logged

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« Reply #40 on: January 27, 2013, 02:20:24 AM »

Actually there was a capitalism thread in non-religious:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,31636.0.html

And since we are discussing sin and capitalism, obviously this is a faith issue. So are you going to answer the question or dodge it?
Ok, you're wrong. 

Now back to the previously scheduled discussion.
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« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2013, 09:04:43 PM »

What is Sin? How would you define Sin? Let's start with the sexual sin/s. At which point does an sexual act become a sin and why?

Why do you want to start with that?
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« Reply #42 on: January 30, 2013, 04:53:31 AM »

What is Sin? How would you define Sin? Let's start with the sexual sin/s. At which point does an sexual act become a sin and why?

Why do you want to start with that?

Because I'm thinking of making a sexual sin with you  laugh
 A fortnight-long warning for immoral proposals. I really suggest you calming down and starting to control your emotions unless you want to get kicked out of here soon. Behave like a civilised man - MK.
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« Reply #43 on: January 30, 2013, 11:07:34 AM »

OMG MichalKalina , it was an innocent joke but whateva'  police

We do not tolerate such sick jokes on this forum, and we do not dispute moderatorial actions in public like this. For disputing Mike's warning in this way, you are now on post moderation for the next two weeks. If you must dispute this warning, please do so only via private message to me.

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« Reply #44 on: January 30, 2013, 07:42:01 PM »

What is Sin? How would you define Sin? Let's start with the sexual sin/s. At which point does an sexual act become a sin and why?

Why distinguish between different types of sin?  Sin is sin, regardless of what type you support or deny.  Sin is anything disobedient to God, anything which separates you from God, etc.  
You got to it before me Smiley
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