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FlickFlack
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« on: January 26, 2013, 06:23:52 PM »

Ok... I had a conversation with someone who told me something that intrigued me. He said "the Bible is not about me" . That made me think.. How can a religion/a religious book that is not about you be true? How can a religious book that doesn't have you as the centre of attention be true? How can a religious book that doesn't concern about you as a person and an real individual be true? What I mean is that a religious book/a religion should be about people of all categories, to answer anyones needs and have an antidote for all and everyone's spiritual sicknesses, to answer to people of all categories, all ages, all sexes, of all times,in all moments. How can a religion/religious book that ain't about you be true, and what do you say about that?

 
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« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2013, 06:26:25 PM »

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All that is necessary for this world and the people in it--the Lord has stated in the Bible. In it He has given the answers to all questions. There is no question which can torment the human soul, and not find its answer, either directly or in­directly in the Bible...

In the Bible God has said absolutely everything that was necessary to be said to men. The biography of every man-­everyone without exception--is found in the Bible.

In it each of us can find himself portrayed and thoroughly described in detail: all those virtues and vices which you have and can have and cannot have.

You will find the paths on which your own soul and everyone else's journey from sin to siniessness, and the entire path from man to God and from man to Satan. You will find the means to free yourself from sin.

In short, you will find the complete history of sin and sin­fulness, and the complete history of righteousness and the righteous...

Read more here...
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FlickFlack
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« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2013, 06:31:08 PM »

@Asterikos the Bible seems to be more about what God has done for us and about a certain tribal people and very little about us.
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« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2013, 06:36:24 PM »

It becomes about you as soon as you enter the covenant, i.e. become one of the People of God through Baptism. At Baptism you or the sponsors on your behalf declare: "I am one with Christ". You freely identify with his history, his People, his Church.

You can either adhere to that, or you can choose to ignore it and then it's not "about you"/"your business" any longer: you decide so. It's like a contract you discontinue. One is free to say to God: "What have I to do with you?" Even so, God remains faithful, ever awaiting the return of the prodigal son.

It's like the parable with the Samaritan - one is not your neighbour per se; he becomes so when you choose to approach him.

Ruth 1:16 "Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God."
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FlickFlack
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« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2013, 07:21:25 PM »

What is a Covenant? Shouldn't a Covenant (a relationship with God) be universally available independent of cryptic factors?
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« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2013, 07:25:25 PM »

What is a Covenant? Shouldn't a Covenant (a relationship with God) be universally available independent of cryptic factors?

What's cryptic about 'Take up your cross and follow me'?
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« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2013, 08:42:55 PM »

What is a Covenant? Shouldn't a Covenant (a relationship with God) be universally available independent of cryptic factors?

Quote
The religious concept of a covenant is central to the Abrahamic religions and derived from the biblical covenants, notably the Abrahamic covenant. It is a formal alliance or agreement made by God with that religious community or with humanity in general.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_%28religion%29
Quote

Judaism
Main article: Mosaic covenant

The Mosaic covenant is central to Judaism and considered as applying only to Jews. For non-Jews, Judaism advocates the pre-Sinaitic Seven Laws of Noah. "...Judaism does not deny salvation to those outside of its fold, for, according to Jewish law, all non-Jews who observe the Noahide laws will participate in salvation and in the rewards of the world to come".[4]
Christianity
Main article: New Covenant#Christianity

Christianity asserts that God made a "New Covenant", which either replaces or exists alongside the Old Covenant of the Hebrew Bible. In this "New Covenant" the Crucifixion of Jesus atones for the sins of all who put their faith in him (Matthew 26:28).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_%28religion%29
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« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2013, 08:51:18 PM »

Everything isn't about you or me, now is it?  Christianity is about, you guessed it, Christ.  Christianity is the denial of self, so of course it isn’t what you expect.  Why would it be about us in the first place.  We are the creation of God, so God came first.
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Ioannis Climacus
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« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2013, 08:56:35 PM »

Ok... I had a conversation with someone who told me something that intrigued me. He said "the Bible is not about me" . That made me think.. How can a religion/a religious book that is not about you be true? How can a religious book that doesn't have you as the centre of attention be true? How can a religious book that doesn't concern about you as a person and an real individual be true? What I mean is that a religious book/a religion should be about people of all categories, to answer anyones needs and have an antidote for all and everyone's spiritual sicknesses, to answer to people of all categories, all ages, all sexes, of all times,in all moments. How can a religion/religious book that ain't about you be true, and what do you say about that?

 
Well, the Bible wasn't written to any of us here. Some books were written as a matter of historical record, other parts were letters directed to certain peoples, etc.

It would be impossible, however, for the Bible to meet everyone's needs at every time in history seeing as the majority of people (that have ever lived) have never actually had access to it. That said, many parts (especially the letters of St. Paul) are veritable troves of wisdom. One may find teachings applicable to the individual, regardless of the time and to whom it was written.
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« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2013, 10:26:02 PM »

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1 Long ago God spoke to our ancestors in many and various ways by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom he also created the worlds. 3 He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact imprint of God's very being, and he sustains all things by his powerful word.

2 Therefore we must pay greater attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. 2 For if the message declared through angels (the Mosaic Law) was valid, and every transgression or disobedience received a just penalty, 3 how can we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? It was declared at first through the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard him, 4 while God added his testimony by signs and wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit, distributed according to his will.

3 Therefore, brothers and sisters, holy partners in a heavenly calling, consider that Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession, 2 was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses also "was faithful in all God's house." (...) 6 Christ, however, was faithful over God's house as a son, and we are his house if we hold firm the confidence and the pride that belong to hope. 7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, "Today, if you hear his voice, 8 do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, as on the day of testing in the wilderness, 9 where your ancestors put me to the test, though they had seen my works 10 for forty years. Therefore I was angry with that generation, and I said, 'They always go astray in their hearts, and they have not known my ways.' 11 As in my anger I swore, 'They will not enter my rest.'" 12 Take care, brothers and sisters, that none of you may have an evil, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called "today," so that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partners of Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end.

11  Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 Indeed, by faith our ancestors received approval. 3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was made from things that are not visible.

Hebrews
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FlickFlack
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« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2013, 08:26:06 PM »



It would be impossible, however, for the Bible to meet everyone's needs at every time in history seeing as the majority of people (that have ever lived) have never actually had access to it.

Than how can it be the [ultimate] truth, the [ultimate] guide?
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« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2013, 08:29:38 PM »

What is a Covenant? Shouldn't a Covenant (a relationship with God) be universally available independent of cryptic factors?

What's cryptic about 'Take up your cross and follow me'?

That the people always saying it, ain't doing it?

Oh wait, they are, but we can't know what their cross is . . . , although they seem to behave pretty much within the expected norms of their society and time. So what could this cross be? Be a productive citizen? That doesn't seem right.

Sounds like something starting to get cryptic.
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« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2013, 08:35:40 PM »



It would be impossible, however, for the Bible to meet everyone's needs at every time in history seeing as the majority of people (that have ever lived) have never actually had access to it.

Than how can it be the [ultimate] truth, the [ultimate] guide?
Well I don't believe it is, so I can't give you an answer.

I will leave that conundrum to the Christians here to solve/answer.
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« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2013, 08:37:25 PM »



It would be impossible, however, for the Bible to meet everyone's needs at every time in history seeing as the majority of people (that have ever lived) have never actually had access to it.

Than how can it be the [ultimate] truth, the [ultimate] guide?

No Odox would claim such a thing. Well they might, but they would be wrong.
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FlickFlack
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« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2013, 08:39:00 PM »

What is a Covenant? Shouldn't a Covenant (a relationship with God) be universally available independent of cryptic factors?

What's cryptic about 'Take up your cross and follow me'?

That the people always saying it, ain't doing it?

Oh wait, they are, but we can't know what their cross is . . . , although they seem to behave pretty much within the expected norms of their society and time. So what could this cross be? Be a productive citizen? That doesn't seem right.

Sounds like something starting to get cryptic.

That was said in regards to Romaios' affirmation saying that you enter in a Covenant with God through Baptism(something cryptic).
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FlickFlack
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« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2013, 08:39:53 PM »



It would be impossible, however, for the Bible to meet everyone's needs at every time in history seeing as the majority of people (that have ever lived) have never actually had access to it.

Than how can it be the [ultimate] truth, the [ultimate] guide?
Well I don't believe it is, so I can't give you an answer.

I will leave that conundrum to the Christians here to solve/answer.

You don't believe the Bible is true or that it contains God ultimacy?
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« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2013, 08:47:20 PM »

What is a Covenant? Shouldn't a Covenant (a relationship with God) be universally available independent of cryptic factors?

What's cryptic about 'Take up your cross and follow me'?

That the people always saying it, ain't doing it?

Oh wait, they are, but we can't know what their cross is . . . , although they seem to behave pretty much within the expected norms of their society and time. So what could this cross be? Be a productive citizen? That doesn't seem right.

Sounds like something starting to get cryptic.

That was said in regards to Romaios' affirmation saying that you enter in a Covenant with God through Baptism(something cryptic).

How is that cryptic?

Is it cryptic that by signing the a dotted line you have entered into a contract with another party?
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« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2013, 08:55:32 PM »



It would be impossible, however, for the Bible to meet everyone's needs at every time in history seeing as the majority of people (that have ever lived) have never actually had access to it.

Than how can it be the [ultimate] truth, the [ultimate] guide?
Well I don't believe it is, so I can't give you an answer.

I will leave that conundrum to the Christians here to solve/answer.

You don't believe the Bible is true or that it contains God ultimacy?
I believe it contains truths about God, no more than that. I hold the bible in the same regard that many here hold the fathers.
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« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2013, 09:32:56 PM »



It would be impossible, however, for the Bible to meet everyone's needs at every time in history seeing as the majority of people (that have ever lived) have never actually had access to it.

Than how can it be the [ultimate] truth, the [ultimate] guide?
Well I don't believe it is, so I can't give you an answer.

I will leave that conundrum to the Christians here to solve/answer.

You don't believe the Bible is true or that it contains God ultimacy?
I believe it contains truths about God, no more than that. I hold the bible in the same regard that many here hold the fathers.

So that would be lower regard than the Fathers then?
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« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2013, 09:55:49 PM »



It would be impossible, however, for the Bible to meet everyone's needs at every time in history seeing as the majority of people (that have ever lived) have never actually had access to it.

Than how can it be the [ultimate] truth, the [ultimate] guide?
Well I don't believe it is, so I can't give you an answer.

I will leave that conundrum to the Christians here to solve/answer.

You don't believe the Bible is true or that it contains God ultimacy?
I believe it contains truths about God, no more than that. I hold the bible in the same regard that many here hold the fathers.

So that would be lower regard than the Fathers then?
Forgive me, but I am not clear as to what you are implying. I meant to suggest that the Bible need not be taken as the foundation of truth (to which many Orthodox will agree), but rather recognized as a diverse collection of books - some sections imparting divine wisdom whilst others reflect human opinion (sometimes erroneous). I believe the Bible to be a useful, but imperfect guide.

Of course, excluding my first post, my views don't convey an Orthodox (let alone Christian) understanding. I will leave it to others to address the inquirer(?)'s questions (seeing as he is here to discuss Christianity).
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« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2013, 10:11:34 PM »



It would be impossible, however, for the Bible to meet everyone's needs at every time in history seeing as the majority of people (that have ever lived) have never actually had access to it.

Than how can it be the [ultimate] truth, the [ultimate] guide?
Well I don't believe it is, so I can't give you an answer.

I will leave that conundrum to the Christians here to solve/answer.

You don't believe the Bible is true or that it contains God ultimacy?
I believe it contains truths about God, no more than that. I hold the bible in the same regard that many here hold the fathers.

So that would be lower regard than the Fathers then?
Forgive me, but I am not clear as to what you are implying. I meant to suggest that the Bible need not be taken as the foundation of truth (to which many Orthodox will agree), but rather recognized as a diverse collection of books - some sections imparting divine wisdom whilst others reflect human opinion (sometimes erroneous). I believe the Bible to be a useful, but imperfect guide.

Of course, excluding my first post, my views don't convey an Orthodox (let alone Christian) understanding. I will leave it to others to address the inquirer(?)'s questions (seeing as he is here to discuss Christianity).

It was a gibe about the weight the Bible is oft given around here by those in love with pseudo-philosophers.

Sorry, forgot how earnest you cut here.
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« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2013, 10:26:39 PM »



It would be impossible, however, for the Bible to meet everyone's needs at every time in history seeing as the majority of people (that have ever lived) have never actually had access to it.

Than how can it be the [ultimate] truth, the [ultimate] guide?
Well I don't believe it is, so I can't give you an answer.

I will leave that conundrum to the Christians here to solve/answer.

You don't believe the Bible is true or that it contains God ultimacy?
I believe it contains truths about God, no more than that. I hold the bible in the same regard that many here hold the fathers.

So that would be lower regard than the Fathers then?
Forgive me, but I am not clear as to what you are implying. I meant to suggest that the Bible need not be taken as the foundation of truth (to which many Orthodox will agree), but rather recognized as a diverse collection of books - some sections imparting divine wisdom whilst others reflect human opinion (sometimes erroneous). I believe the Bible to be a useful, but imperfect guide.

Of course, excluding my first post, my views don't convey an Orthodox (let alone Christian) understanding. I will leave it to others to address the inquirer(?)'s questions (seeing as he is here to discuss Christianity).

It was a gibe about the weight the Bible is oft given around here by those in love with pseudo-philosophers.

Sorry, forgot how earnest you cut here.
I had a feeling you were getting at something along those lines, but I wasn't sure. Forgive my "earnestness" - it is an [unfortunate] internet-persona trait I have picked up over the years.
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« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2013, 10:28:45 PM »



It would be impossible, however, for the Bible to meet everyone's needs at every time in history seeing as the majority of people (that have ever lived) have never actually had access to it.

Than how can it be the [ultimate] truth, the [ultimate] guide?
Well I don't believe it is, so I can't give you an answer.

I will leave that conundrum to the Christians here to solve/answer.

You don't believe the Bible is true or that it contains God ultimacy?
I believe it contains truths about God, no more than that. I hold the bible in the same regard that many here hold the fathers.

So that would be lower regard than the Fathers then?
Forgive me, but I am not clear as to what you are implying. I meant to suggest that the Bible need not be taken as the foundation of truth (to which many Orthodox will agree), but rather recognized as a diverse collection of books - some sections imparting divine wisdom whilst others reflect human opinion (sometimes erroneous). I believe the Bible to be a useful, but imperfect guide.

Of course, excluding my first post, my views don't convey an Orthodox (let alone Christian) understanding. I will leave it to others to address the inquirer(?)'s questions (seeing as he is here to discuss Christianity).

It was a gibe about the weight the Bible is oft given around here by those in love with pseudo-philosophers.

Sorry, forgot how earnest you cut here.
I had a feeling you were getting at something along those lines, but I wasn't sure. Forgive my "earnestness" - it is an [unfortunate] internet-persona trait I have picked up over the years.

You'll be in my prayers.
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« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2013, 06:21:40 AM »

What is a Covenant? Shouldn't a Covenant (a relationship with God) be universally available independent of cryptic factors?

What's cryptic about 'Take up your cross and follow me'?

That the people always saying it, ain't doing it?

Oh wait, they are, but we can't know what their cross is . . . , although they seem to behave pretty much within the expected norms of their society and time. So what could this cross be? Be a productive citizen? That doesn't seem right.

Sounds like something starting to get cryptic.

That was said in regards to Romaios' affirmation saying that you enter in a Covenant with God through Baptism(something cryptic).

How is that cryptic?

Is it cryptic that by signing the a dotted line you have entered into a contract with another party?

Did you actually read what I wrote and my intial post concerning that? If you didn't here it is :


"What is a Covenant? Shouldn't a Covenant (a relationship with God) be universally available independent of cryptic factors?"

Baptism is a pretty cryptic thing.

What is your IQ?
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« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2013, 06:35:39 AM »

Baptism is a pretty cryptic thing.

Yup - that's why they call it a Mystery.

What is your IQ?

You should put that as a signature - that way it pops up with each and every one of your posts automatically.
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« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2013, 08:05:29 AM »

Baptism is a pretty cryptic thing.

Yup - that's why they call it a Mystery.

You missed this let me help you: "Shouldn't a Covenant (a relationship with God) be universally available independent of cryptic factors?"
Quote
What is your IQ?

You should put that as a signature - that way it pops up with each and every one of your posts automatically.

I like my current signature better. You should read it. Though I wouldn't mind finding out what your IQ is or other's users in here.
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« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2013, 08:16:50 AM »

You missed this let me help you: "Shouldn't a Covenant (a relationship with God) be universally available independent of cryptic factors?"

That's for God to decide. Jews speak of a Noahic covenant for non-Jews (avoiding idolatry and a few other commandments, 7 in all IIRC). Christians consider the New Covenant of Christ to be universal.
 
I like my current signature better. You should read it. Though I wouldn't mind finding out what your IQ is or other's users in here.

I read it, but I cannot relate to it - you see, I am no shepherd, teacher or preacher in the Church. Even if someone were, why would they consider you part of their God-entrusted flock? 

What is your IQ?

I don't even know my IQ, but it must be very low by your standards. I'm pretty sure that it defines no one in any essential way, though. It's almost as (ir)relevant as one's shoe size.   
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 08:25:01 AM by Romaios » Logged
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« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2013, 08:41:02 AM »

Ok... I had a conversation with someone who told me something that intrigued me. He said "the Bible is not about me" .

Is your friend Calvinist/Reformed?  I have observed a tension between the Calvinist/Reformed camp and some strands of Evangelical Protestantism where the former wish to emphasize a God-centered faith and accuse the latter of following a me-centered or self-centered faith.  The Reformed camp wants to emphasize that we are created to glorify and worship God, and the purpose of the Scriptures is to reveal to us who God is so that we can conform to God and properly know and worship Him.  Their criticism of many of today’s megachurch-type Protestants is that the latter seem to make everything about themselves.  Faith is approached in terms of how God can make your life better, more successful, etc. (i.e. Prosperity Gospel).  This latter group tends not to care so much about doctrine, sin, repentance, judgment, etc.; but rather about “inspiring” messages that uplift you and make you feel good (i.e. Joel Osteen) in this present world.  This latter group may approach faith and the Scriptures always with the question of “what does this have to do with me”, attempting to conform the Scriptures and the entire faith to what the individual wants rather than attempting to conform one’s very self to the will of God.  

I think Orthodox can certainly sympathize with those in the Calvinist/Reformed camp, but it is interesting to see Calvinists speak about the importance of doctrine and the heretical tendencies in some of Evangelical Protestantism when Calvinism was condemned as heretical by the Orthodox Church a few hundred years ago.  
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« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2013, 08:46:54 AM »

Ok... I had a conversation with someone who told me something that intrigued me. He said "the Bible is not about me" .

Is your friend Calvinist/Reformed?  I have observed a tension between the Calvinist/Reformed camp and some strands of Evangelical Protestantism where the former wish to emphasize a God-centered faith and accuse the latter of following a me-centered or self-centered faith.  The Reformed camp wants to emphasize that we are created to glorify and worship God, and the purpose of the Scriptures is to reveal to us who God is so that we can conform to God and properly know and worship Him.  Their criticism of many of today’s megachurch-type Protestants is that the latter seem to make everything about themselves.  Faith is approached in terms of how God can make your life better, more successful, etc. (i.e. Prosperity Gospel).  This latter group tends not to care so much about doctrine, sin, repentance, judgment, etc.; but rather about “inspiring” messages that uplift you and make you feel good (i.e. Joel Osteen) in this present world.  This latter group may approach faith and the Scriptures always with the question of “what does this have to do with me”, attempting to conform the Scriptures and the entire faith to what the individual wants rather than attempting to conform one’s very self to the will of God.  

I think Orthodox can certainly sympathize with those in the Calvinist/Reformed camp, but it is interesting to see Calvinists speak about the importance of doctrine and the heretical tendencies in some of Evangelical Protestantism when Calvinism was condemned as heretical by the Orthodox Church a few hundred years ago.  


Not sure. Ethnically he says he is a Jew and that he attends at a Baptist Church.
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« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2013, 09:07:44 AM »

You missed this let me help you: "Shouldn't a Covenant (a relationship with God) be universally available independent of cryptic factors?"

That's for God to decide. Jews speak of a Noahic covenant for non-Jews (avoiding idolatry and a few other commandments, 7 in all IIRC). Christians consider the New Covenant of Christ to be universal.

Yes but Orthodox,Catholics(?) and some Reformists see this New Covenant available and restricted only to their denomination and through cryptic means, as baptism performed by a clergy from that denomination, as I think you, yourself have suggested.
 
Quote
I like my current signature better. You should read it. Though I wouldn't mind finding out what your IQ is or other's users in here.

I read it, but I cannot relate to it - you see, I am no shepherd, teacher or preacher in the Church. Even if someone were, why would they consider you part of their God-entrusted flock? 

Because I am part of your(pl) denomination (Eastern Orthodox). Shepherd in the Jewish context refers to the clergy and the scribes alike. To all whom could answer to their neighbour, teach him and help him. Even as the Gospel sayes feed one another, and carry one another's burdens, and be always ready to respond to anyone(the Apostles didn't just said members from within your communion/community, just to refute another blind judgement of yours).

Quote
What is your IQ?

I don't even know my IQ, but it must be very low by your standards. I'm pretty sure that it defines no one in any essential way, though. It's almost as (ir)relevant as one's shoe size.   

Sadly studies show that religious people have the lowest IQs.

The Bible never speaks of unreasonable, unquestioned and untested faith. But seek the Scripture, my people perish because they have no knowledge, eternal life is knowledge of God and Jesus, and the Second Person of the Holy Trinity is Logos.. The biggest writer of the New Testament (who has written and covered most of it in its Epistles) was a well schooled Jew, an intellectual and respected man, and one who apparently was well endowed even in Greek philosophy. He was a student of Gamaliel one of the most respected Pharisee and relative of rabbinical Judaism. But apparently you and those you drag after you like in Rev 12:3-4 don't know the Scriptures nor the power of God, that you allow yourselves to mock so easily people's thoughts and feelings and instead of giving them a fish you give them a snake. But read my signature God is Just. And if you knew this things and didn't do it, God will beat you with many more stripes than other as it is written. whatever you do, remmeber God is Just and He sees your every move and thought and word!
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« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2013, 09:17:44 AM »

Sadly studies show that religious people have the lowest IQs.

You have any evidence for that utterly ridiculous claim? I could tell you my IQ (and no it isn't low) but I know enough about IQ to know it means practically nothing. It's a measure of how well you do IQ tests, and you can train yourself to do better in them quite easily. It certainly is not a measure of intelligence, but even if you rather unwisely believe that IQ does measure intelligence (and you certainly seem to adhere to some peculiar degree of faith in the value of IQ testing) I know of no evidence whatsoever for a correlation between religious faith and low IQ. Have you ever actually studied the history of IQ testing?

James
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« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2013, 09:34:27 AM »

Sadly studies show that religious people have the lowest IQs.

Links or it didn't happen.

PS: Does conversion automagically burn off IQ points? Tongue
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« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2013, 09:38:32 AM »

Sadly studies show that religious people have the lowest IQs.

You have any evidence for that utterly ridiculous claim? I could tell you my IQ (and no it isn't low) but I know enough about IQ to know it means practically nothing. It's a measure of how well you do IQ tests, and you can train yourself to do better in them quite easily. It certainly is not a measure of intelligence, but even if you rather unwisely believe that IQ does measure intelligence (and you certainly seem to adhere to some peculiar degree of faith in the value of IQ testing) I know of no evidence whatsoever for a correlation between religious faith and low IQ. Have you ever actually studied the history of IQ testing?

James

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1029149/Why-people-believe-God-likely-lower-IQ.html
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« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2013, 09:42:32 AM »

That's for God to decide. Jews speak of a Noahic covenant for non-Jews (avoiding idolatry and a few other commandments, 7 in all IIRC). Christians consider the New Covenant of Christ to be universal.

Yes but Orthodox,Catholics(?) and some Reformists see this New Covenant available and restricted only to their denomination and through cryptic means, as baptism performed by a clergy from that denomination, as I think you, yourself have suggested.

No - I suggested that in the Orthodox Church each priest/spiritual father is responsible for his own disciples/parish community. No one's been officially assigned by the Church to provide spiritual direction to unknown people over the internet.
 
Because I am part of your(pl) denomination (Eastern Orthodox). Shepherd in the Jewish context refers to the clergy and the scribes alike. To all whom could answer to their neighbour, teach him and help him. Even as the Gospel sayes feed one another, and carry one another's burdens, and be always ready to respond to anyone(the Apostles didn't just said members from within your communion/community, just to refute another blind judgement of yours).

It is my impression that, despite what you say, you refuse to be helped by people whose IQ you believe to be lower than yours.

Sadly studies show that religious people have the lowest IQs.

That's such a vague claim that it could hardly be the conclusion of any serious research. Who's to define who's representative of religious people and who isn't?

The biggest writer of the New Testament (who has written and covered most of it in its Epistles) was a well schooled Jew, an intellectual and respected man, and one who apparently was well endowed even in Greek philosophy. He was a student of Gamaliel one of the most respected Pharisee and relative of rabbinical Judaism.

He also says:

"Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong." (1 Corinthians 1:26-27)

The Bible never speaks of unreasonable, unquestioned and untested faith. But seek the Scripture, my people perish because they have no knowledge, eternal life is knowledge of God and Jesus, and the Second Person of the Holy Trinity is Logos.. But apparently you and those you drag after you like in Rev 12:3-4 don't know the Scriptures nor the power of God, that you allow yourselves to mock so easily people's thoughts and feelings and instead of giving them a fish you give them a snake.

Hey, like most people around here, I've done my best to provide helpful answers, as far as my ignorance permits. Now I gather you are not satisfied with our answers, but my conscience does not accuse me of feeding you any "snakes" - insidious, heretical, soul-endangering advice or doctrines. All I can do is offer you the salt of Scripture and the limited Orthodox teachings I have myself received. You may not like the taste of that, but that's not exactly anybody's fault but yours. This sort of cheap emotional blackmail is completely out of place in a discussion like this.       

As for your formal affiliation to Orthodoxy, I can only trust your word on that. But to be honest with you I have not, for one second, had the impression of talking to someone with an Orthodox mindset when interacting with your posts. Actually, you sound like someone with little or no respect for Orthodoxy.   
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« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2013, 09:47:58 AM »

Quote
The Bible never speaks of unreasonable, unquestioned and untested faith.

Ahem. From Matthew, ch. 18:

2Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, 3and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
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« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2013, 09:59:39 AM »

Sadly studies show that religious people have the lowest IQs.

-How are "religious people" defined in such studies?
-How is the IQ of an atheist/agnostic effected when he embraces Orthodoxy?
-What is the effect on the IQ of an atheist or agnostic embracing heretical religious beliefs?
-What is the relationship between IQ and salvation
-How does the process of purification, illumination, and theosis effect the IQ?
-What is the relationship between IQ and the human pride which drives away the grace of God?
-What is the relationship between IQ and wealth, since it is very difficult for the rich to inherit the kingdom of God? (Matt 19:23)
-What is the significance of the Lord's words, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes"? (Matt 11:25)
-What is the significance of the words "Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, And prudent in their own sight!" (Isaiah 5:21) for such a relationship?

I look forward to your detailed response  Wink
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« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2013, 10:01:14 AM »

Quote
The Bible never speaks of unreasonable, unquestioned and untested faith.

Ahem. From Matthew, ch. 18:

2Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, 3and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.

you shouldn't quote Scripture you don't understand.
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« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2013, 10:02:37 AM »

you shouldn't quote Scripture you don't understand.

That's your own presumption. Disrespectful, but not necessarily true.
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« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2013, 10:05:52 AM »

Quote
The Bible never speaks of unreasonable, unquestioned and untested faith.

Ahem. From Matthew, ch. 18:

2Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, 3and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.

you shouldn't quote Scripture you don't understand.
And you are complaining that we are disrespectful towards you?
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« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2013, 10:06:59 AM »

More:

Matt. 19:

13Then little children were brought to Him that He might put His hands on them and pray, but the disciples rebuked them. 14But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.” 15And He laid His hands on them and departed from there.

Matt. 21:

14Then the blind and the lame came to Him in the temple, and He healed them. 15But when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that He did, and the children crying out in the temple and saying, “Hosanna to the Son of David!” they were indignant 16and said to Him, “Do You hear what these are saying?”

And Jesus said to them, “Yes. Have you never read,

‘Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants
You have perfected praise’?”

Mark 10:

13Then they brought little children to Him, that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked those who brought them. 14But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. 15Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.” 16And He took them up in His arms, laid His hands on them, and blessed them.

Luke 1:

39Now Mary arose in those days and went into the hill country with haste, to a city of Judah, 40and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth. 41And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43But why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44For indeed, as soon as the voice of your greeting sounded in my ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

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« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2013, 10:18:35 AM »



Hey, like most people around here, I've done my best to provide helpful answers, as far as my ignorance permits. Now I gather you are not satisfied with our answers, but my conscience does not accuse me of feeding you any "snakes" - insidious, heretical, soul-endangering advice or doctrines. All I can do is offer you the salt of Scripture and the limited Orthodox teachings I have myself received. You may not like the taste of that, but that's not exactly anybody's fault but yours. This sort of cheap emotional blackmail is completely out of place in a discussion like this.

Perhaps you shouldn't speak from ignorance but from what you know than, or you'll risk misrepresenting the Church's teachings. Everyone has awarness of the Church's letter but few know it. What I got from you is exactly this that you don't know what you are writing about. That is why when questioned you fail to provide an answer and reveal your understanding. All you got is memorised, dull, death Orthodox letter that I bet all if not the majority who come here has it. You provided snakes to me as in masked adhomined, meannes, masked attacks and insults, false impressions and condemnations and so on. That is not very Christian and not very Orthodox, and like the dragon from Revelation you drawed others with your tail to that. You can lie us or try to lie me(you can't really succeed, I see an imense amount of falsity and hypocrisy to your posts) but you cannot lie to God, who is here taking account of every single intention and thought of yours.

Quote
As for your formal affiliation to Orthodoxy, I can only trust your word on that. But to be honest with you I have not, for one second, had the impression of talking to someone with an Orthodox mindset when interacting with your posts. Actually, you sound like someone with little or no respect for Orthodoxy.    

As you said, you are no one to be making this judgement and condemnation of someone you know absolutely nothing of. You said it yourself you are no one of authority in the church, just a lousy self-righteous "Orthodox". I have no respect to man, but God, and no respect to fakeness, falsity and manipulation, I have respect for the Orthodox Church and faith as being a faith of prestige and the faith that I was brought into, but I am trying to draw the mud out of it, and I am doing all this things because I want to be a full Orthodox Christian in the fullness of my Conscience, unlike other impersonators in here.
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« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2013, 10:21:49 AM »

Sadly studies show that religious people have the lowest IQs.

-How are "religious people" defined in such studies?
-How is the IQ of an atheist/agnostic effected when he embraces Orthodoxy?
-What is the effect on the IQ of an atheist or agnostic embracing heretical religious beliefs?
-What is the relationship between IQ and salvation
-How does the process of purification, illumination, and theosis effect the IQ?
-What is the relationship between IQ and the human pride which drives away the grace of God?
-What is the relationship between IQ and wealth, since it is very difficult for the rich to inherit the kingdom of God? (Matt 19:23)
-What is the significance of the Lord's words, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes"? (Matt 11:25)
-What is the significance of the words "Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, And prudent in their own sight!" (Isaiah 5:21) for such a relationship?

I look forward to your detailed response  Wink

That is not my concern not my problem. That study which I provided speaks of the majority, not all. I personally don't believe all religious people are low IQs or I wouldn't be here in the first place. I even found some who appear to have a big IQ here and I would like to hear from those more, not from the likes of low IQs whom posts I will once again take with a grain of salt a think twice before responding to their narrow-mindness.
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« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2013, 10:24:24 AM »


Perhaps you shouldn't speak from ignorance but from what you know than, or you'll risk misrepresenting the Church's teachings. Everyone has awarness of the Church's letter but few know it. What I got from you is exactly this that you don't know what you are writing about. That is why when questioned you fail to provide an answer and reveal your understand. All you got is memorised, dull, death Orthodox letter than I bet all if not the majority who come here has it. You provided snakes to me as in masked adhomined, meannes, masked attacks and insults, false impressions and condemnations and so on. That is not very Christian and not very Orthodox, and like the dragon from Revelation you drawed other with your tail to that. You can us or try to lie me(you can't really succeed, I see an imense amount of falsity and hypocrisy to your posts) but you cannot lie to God, who is here taking account of every single intention and thought of yours.

As you said, you are no one to be making this judgement and condemnation of someone you know absolutely nothing of. You said it yourself you are no one of authority in the church, just a lousy self-righteous "Orthodox". I have no respect to man, but God, and no respect to fakeness, falsity and manipulation, I have respect for the Orthodox Church and faith as being a faith of prestige and the faith that I was brought into, but I am trying to draw the mud out of it, and I am doing all this things because I want to be a full Orthodox Christian in the fullness of my Conscience, unlike other impersonators in here.


Quote
That is not my concern not my problem. That study which I provided speaks of the majority, not all. I personally don't believe all religious people are low IQs or I wouldn't be here in the first place. I even found some who appear to have a big IQ here and I would like to hear from those more, not from the likes of low IQs whom posts I will once again take with a grain of salt a think twice before responding to their narrow-mindness.

Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their own craftiness”.

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« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2013, 10:42:20 AM »

Sadly studies show that religious people have the lowest IQs.

You have any evidence for that utterly ridiculous claim? I could tell you my IQ (and no it isn't low) but I know enough about IQ to know it means practically nothing. It's a measure of how well you do IQ tests, and you can train yourself to do better in them quite easily. It certainly is not a measure of intelligence, but even if you rather unwisely believe that IQ does measure intelligence (and you certainly seem to adhere to some peculiar degree of faith in the value of IQ testing) I know of no evidence whatsoever for a correlation between religious faith and low IQ. Have you ever actually studied the history of IQ testing?

James

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1029149/Why-people-believe-God-likely-lower-IQ.html

One controversial claim by a single, and controversial, academic reported in, of all things, the Daily Mail, is hardly much of a case. Is that all you have? And I note that you didn't even try to engage with rest of my post.

James
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« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2013, 10:53:46 AM »

Sadly studies show that religious people have the lowest IQs.

-How are "religious people" defined in such studies?
-How is the IQ of an atheist/agnostic effected when he embraces Orthodoxy?
-What is the effect on the IQ of an atheist or agnostic embracing heretical religious beliefs?
-What is the relationship between IQ and salvation
-How does the process of purification, illumination, and theosis effect the IQ?
-What is the relationship between IQ and the human pride which drives away the grace of God?
-What is the relationship between IQ and wealth, since it is very difficult for the rich to inherit the kingdom of God? (Matt 19:23)
-What is the significance of the Lord's words, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes"? (Matt 11:25)
-What is the significance of the words "Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, And prudent in their own sight!" (Isaiah 5:21) for such a relationship?

I look forward to your detailed response  Wink

That is not my concern not my problem. That study which I provided speaks of the majority, not all. I personally don't believe all religious people are low IQs or I wouldn't be here in the first place. I even found some who appear to have a big IQ here and I would like to hear from those more, not from the likes of low IQs whom posts I will once again take with a grain of salt a think twice before responding to their narrow-mindness.

Actually, it doesn't. That 'study', if I can even accurately use such a term, claimed that there was a correlation between average IQ of a population and prevalence of religious belief in said population. It made no measurements of individuals, took no pains to find out any differences amongst the faiths of those involved and, for which it was criticised quite roundly and with good reason, was comparing disparate populations with no attempt to factor out economic, historic or societal factors that might skew the results. I am unsurprised. It takes the broadest, least meaningful and undifferentiated definitions of both IQ and faith and then comes to a conclusions which suits the presuppositions of its author. Science it is not. And before you think to accuse me of speaking without understanding, as you've done to others here with little or no evidence on which to base such accusations, I'm actually a psychologist by training.

James
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