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Author Topic: Main Diff with Catholicism  (Read 616 times) Average Rating: 0
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Anastasia1
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« on: January 26, 2013, 05:24:00 PM »

I've heard people say Chalcedon matters a bit and people say that it was really a matter of translation and an Eastern Catholic was saying that as long as it keeps to the bounds established by St. Cyril, miaphysitism is perfectly orthodox.  So is this still the biggest difference/divide between OO and Catholic?
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« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2013, 03:27:49 PM »

no, i think it's the purgatory and the way they look at original sin.
and some political problems, e.g. like rome trying to get political power in egypt in 1200s.
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« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2013, 03:33:42 PM »

Not to mention their view of the Papacy. That's really the biggest one for me.

Edit: Their, there, they're; 13 Years of English and I still can't keep track.
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« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2013, 03:38:17 PM »

That is our biggest difference in theology, sure. But there are many other differences. I think I agree with the EO that it is a difference in mindset more so than any one particular thing, such that we could say "if Rome would change its view on X, we would/could be the same church". Having been a Roman Catholic before I became Orthodox, the change is huge, but cannot be narrowed down to one thing or even a list of top 3 or 10 or however many things. Our ecclesiology is different, our theology is different, our soteriology is different, etc., and each of these things contains within it many other things (e.g., ecclesiology reflects theology, i.e., when the RC say that their Pope is the "Vicar of Christ" or the "Supreme head of the Church" or whatever). It's all connected, so I cannot pick only one thing.
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Anastasia1
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« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2013, 07:14:23 PM »

That is our biggest difference in theology, sure. But there are many other differences. I think I agree with the EO that it is a difference in mindset more so than any one particular thing, such that we could say "if Rome would change its view on X, we would/could be the same church". Having been a Roman Catholic before I became Orthodox, the change is huge, but cannot be narrowed down to one thing or even a list of top 3 or 10 or however many things. Our ecclesiology is different, our theology is different, our soteriology is different, etc., and each of these things contains within it many other things (e.g., ecclesiology reflects theology, i.e., when the RC say that their Pope is the "Vicar of Christ" or the "Supreme head of the Church" or whatever). It's all connected, so I cannot pick only one thing.
Do you think that this mindset difference is a matter of several different doctrines or an intrinsically different approach to religion?

Do you think there is a similar difference in mindset when comparing OO to Eastern Catholic as when comparing OO to Western or Roman Catholic?
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« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2013, 07:27:23 PM »

That is our biggest difference in theology, sure. But there are many other differences. I think I agree with the EO that it is a difference in mindset more so than any one particular thing, such that we could say "if Rome would change its view on X, we would/could be the same church". Having been a Roman Catholic before I became Orthodox, the change is huge, but cannot be narrowed down to one thing or even a list of top 3 or 10 or however many things. Our ecclesiology is different, our theology is different, our soteriology is different, etc., and each of these things contains within it many other things (e.g., ecclesiology reflects theology, i.e., when the RC say that their Pope is the "Vicar of Christ" or the "Supreme head of the Church" or whatever). It's all connected, so I cannot pick only one thing.

I wholeheartedly agree here.  The differences are remarkable.
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« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2013, 07:32:49 PM »

Do you think that this mindset difference is a matter of several different doctrines or an intrinsically different approach to religion?

I think it is the latter, which begets the former.

Quote
Do you think there is a similar difference in mindset when comparing OO to Eastern Catholic as when comparing OO to Western or Roman Catholic?

My observations are mainly confined to the Latin/Western church, as that's where I spent most of my time. I did also visit the local Ruthenian Catholic Church back when I lived in Oregon, but found them to be very Latinized, to the point where their priest told me that he felt they had a long way to go to recover their traditions. I don't think I can add anything more than that, except to say that I find the idea that Eastern Catholics are somehow "Orthodox in Union with Rome", as some of them like to call themselves, to be highly problematic and wrong. So if they're not exactly Western/Roman Catholics, it is even less appropriate to assume by virtue of their Orthodox heritage (with the exception of those Catholic bodies derived from the ACoE, who of course weren't Orthodox even before coming into union with Rome) that they somehow share the same mindset or approach to the faith as the Orthodox do. If you teach the Roman heresies, or are at best prohibited from teaching against them (as is the case with the Eastern Catholics; some, like the Maronites, are very much "more Latin than the Pope" -- others, like the Melkites, often fancy themselves as being Orthodox in all things save their union with Rome, as though such a thing is possible), then you are no better.

So, in a way, the question regarding the Eastern Catholics is kind of all over the place (because it depends on what you take as an indication of a difference in mindset), but in a sense they are united by a common acceptance of heterodoxy which a priori places them outside of Orthodoxy. You can't be Orthodox while accepting the edicts of an un-Orthodox infallible ruler, even if you have all the trappings that make you believe or look like you are. I dare say they would understand this (and some already do; I know several Catholics right now who are in such a place as Eastern Catholics and recognize that they should be Orthodox, but have yet to fully work through that within themselves)...if they were Orthodox. Wink
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« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2013, 10:28:22 PM »

^^ I guess I agree with you to an extent, inasmuch as I think that some people take "Orthodox in communion with Rome" too far.

To me, "Orthodox in communion with Rome" is an expression rather like calling Rome and Constantinople "Old Rome and New Rome" (and possible "the Third Rome" for Moscow). But just as I wouldn't ask for a clarification if someone just said "Rome", so also if some just said "the Orthodox", I wouldn't respond "Do you mean the Orthodox in communion with Rome or the Orthodox not in communion with Rome?"

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« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2013, 12:48:24 AM »

^^ I guess I agree with you to an extent, inasmuch as I think that some people take "Orthodox in communion with Rome" too far.

To me, "Orthodox in communion with Rome" is an expression rather like calling Rome and Constantinople "Old Rome and New Rome" (and possible "the Third Rome" for Moscow). But just as I wouldn't ask for a clarification if someone just said "Rome", so also if some just said "the Orthodox", I wouldn't respond "Do you mean the Orthodox in communion with Rome or the Orthodox not in communion with Rome?"


The problem with "Orthodox in communion with Rome" is that Latin "converts" to Eastern Christianity are led to believe that being Eastern Catholic is just like being Eastern Orthodox with the Pope.  Granted that some parishes are better at this than others, those like myself who soon realize that it is not eventually go looking for the real thing.  I think "Orthodox in communion with Rome" isn't being honest not only to others, but to themselves (speaking about the ECs here who use that term).  And given the dearth of Eastern Catholic resources, often the resources we are left to read are Orthodox books which open our eyes to what Orthodoxy really is and then we find that most of that cannot be found in our parish.
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« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2013, 11:27:42 AM »

^^ I guess I agree with you to an extent, inasmuch as I think that some people take "Orthodox in communion with Rome" too far.

To me, "Orthodox in communion with Rome" is an expression rather like calling Rome and Constantinople "Old Rome and New Rome" (and possible "the Third Rome" for Moscow). But just as I wouldn't ask for a clarification if someone just said "Rome", so also if some just said "the Orthodox", I wouldn't respond "Do you mean the Orthodox in communion with Rome or the Orthodox not in communion with Rome?"


The problem with "Orthodox in communion with Rome" is that Latin "converts" to Eastern Christianity are led to believe that being Eastern Catholic is just like being Eastern Orthodox with the Pope.  Granted that some parishes are better at this than others, those like myself who soon realize that it is not eventually go looking for the real thing

I'd like to think that out of those who have that (unpleasant, I agree) experience, there are more of us (or as many anyhow) who make the difficult decision to stay put rather than switching sides.
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« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2013, 08:35:13 PM »

That is our biggest difference in theology, sure. But there are many other differences. I think I agree with the EO that it is a difference in mindset more so than any one particular thing, such that we could say "if Rome would change its view on X, we would/could be the same church". Having been a Roman Catholic before I became Orthodox, the change is huge, but cannot be narrowed down to one thing or even a list of top 3 or 10 or however many things. Our ecclesiology is different, our theology is different, our soteriology is different, etc., and each of these things contains within it many other things (e.g., ecclesiology reflects theology, i.e., when the RC say that their Pope is the "Vicar of Christ" or the "Supreme head of the Church" or whatever). It's all connected, so I cannot pick only one thing.

would you say that the change is holistic? 
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