Author Topic: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic  (Read 14498 times)

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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic
« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2005, 05:29:43 PM »
Quote
Is that our right to judge? We do not know his heart.

We cannot judge his eternal destiny (only God can) but we can presume that he is not a Catholic in good standing based on his rejection of the Church's teaching on abortion.

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Offline Schultz

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Re: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic
« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2005, 05:31:24 PM »
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Is that our right to judge? We do not know his heart.

Perhaps you are right. Let's leave this at that.


Quote
Please back this up. Not that I necessarily disagree with you but I'd like some information on how the right to conscience does not apply to those within the Roman Church.

Quite simple. Every dogmatic pronouncement contains the phrase, "atque idcirco ab omnibus fidelibus firmiter constanterque credendam". ("and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful") or something extremely similar. Vatican II affirmed all previously held doctrines, contrary to what some modernists in organizations like CFFC may tout in their little pamphlets.
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Offline Matthew777

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Re: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic
« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2005, 05:32:01 PM »


We cannot judge his eternal destiny (only God can) but we can presume that he is not a Catholic in good standing based on his rejection of the Church's teaching on abortion.

Anastasios

He believes abortion to be a grave sin but that the government does not have the right to ban the practice.
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Offline Fr. David

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Re: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic
« Reply #48 on: January 12, 2005, 05:36:53 PM »
Heck, some of the best Christian books have been written by protestants but that shouldn't prevent us from reading them. The best books I have ever read on the historicity of the Gospels were written by protestant authors such as Lee Strobel and Josh McDowell.

Woah!  Are you serious?!  Josh "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" McDowell?!  I'm sorry, but his take on the development of the canon is, to limit myself to two words, completely ahistorical.
 
Quote
I bet everyone on this forum would enjoy reading the best books of C.S. Lewis.


OK, I'm with you here, but then...

Quote
And one of the best Christian devotional books written in the past few years is The Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren, an evangelical pastor.

 :bang: 
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic
« Reply #49 on: January 12, 2005, 05:38:19 PM »


He believes abortion to be a grave sin but that the government does not have the right to ban the practice.

Which directly contradicts Catholic teaching, which was reaffirmed as recently as 2004 by Cardinal Ratzinger.

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Offline Matthew777

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Re: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic
« Reply #50 on: January 12, 2005, 05:39:31 PM »


Woah!  Are you serious?!  Josh "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" McDowell?! 
 

Have you read More than a Carpenter?

:bang: 

Have you read the Purpose Driven Life?
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Offline Matthew777

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Re: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic
« Reply #51 on: January 12, 2005, 05:41:05 PM »


Which directly contradicts Catholic teaching, which was reaffirmed as recently as 2004 by Cardinal Ratzinger.

Anastasios

Either way, it's a moot point. I disagree with John Kerry's position on abortion but that doesn't give me the right to doubt his Catholic faith.
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Offline Schultz

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Re: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic
« Reply #52 on: January 12, 2005, 05:43:02 PM »
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Either way, it's a moot point. I disagree with John Kerry's position on abortion but that doesn't give me the right to doubt his Catholic faith.

Do you think that the bishops have the right to deny such politicians the Eucharist?
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic
« Reply #53 on: January 12, 2005, 05:46:32 PM »


Have you read More than a Carpenter?



Have you read the Purpose Driven Life?

McDowell helped someone I know become a Christian and the author of the Purpose-Driven Life gave away 90% of his royalties, so I am not going to attack them. however, I did find their writings to contain enough errors that one could just as easily be led away from apostolic Christianity.

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Offline Fr. David

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Re: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic
« Reply #54 on: January 12, 2005, 06:04:47 PM »
Anastasios beat me to this, but my thoughts are actually more for PDL

Have you read More than a Carpenter? Have you read the Purpose Driven Life?

Yes and yes.

MTAC is better than ETDAV, I admit...my problem with MTAC is mostly methodology, as he does come to some good conculsions.

PDL is quite vague. Starts off all right, with things like, "God has a plan for your life" and "God knows all the hairs on your head," but moves on to things like "What Makes God Smile?" and "Becoming Best Friends with God" -- making God seem like a weepy, sentimental pal rather than a King, Lord and Father -- and finally dealing out phrases like "God doesn't care how you worship, just so long as you *feel* Him" and "Jesus said our love for each other -- not our doctrinal beliefs -- is the greatest witness to the world." So, to quote the Beatles, All You Need is Love...and can't we all just put that pesky doctrine to the side and get along?

There are some good things in those books, but nothing is said in there that isn't said better or more completely in Orthodox sources. I guess my question would be this: why are you willingly exposing yourself (over and over, it sounds like) to these ideas that are just plain wrong, much less lauding them?
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic
« Reply #55 on: January 12, 2005, 06:56:36 PM »
Regarding Kerry, the thing that gets me is that if this was in any other time, every Christian would be throwing a fit about such double-talk. Can you imagine a German Catholic Bishop around the time of Hitler saying "Well I'm against killing Jews and think it's a great sin, but I don't think it's right to force our government to hold to our morality"?
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic
« Reply #56 on: January 12, 2005, 07:06:21 PM »
Matthew,

Quote
Furthermore, the differences we have with Roman Catholicism should not prevent us from having peace and understanding together as fellow Christians:


The more I've read, the more I've come to believe two things. First, there is certainly some source or origin in the Fathers for many of the Catholic doctrines I believe to be innovations, so I think there are many times places to work from. On issues like purgatory, papal supremacy, etc., I'm willing to wait and see if maybe something can be hashed out, because I think the early Christian witness was far from 100% precise on these issues. However, there is a second thing I've come to believe. Because of the structure of both of our churches, administratively and culturally, I think it will be next to impossible--short of the return of our Lord--to come together now. The Catholic tendency to be top-down, authoritarian, intellectual, etc. is in direct opposition to the Orthodox tendency to be ambiguous, cautious, and mystical. There is also one additional--though important--psychological issue related to this last thought: many Orthodox through the last 1,300 years have lived their lives under some type of yoke, whether muslim, latin, byzantine, soviet, or whatever else. This has surely had a lingering effect on us, and the idea of joining to a Church like the Catholic Church (as it is described above) is not exactly something we could expect to happen easily.
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Offline Matthew777

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Re: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic
« Reply #57 on: January 12, 2005, 08:39:30 PM »
"Jesus said our love for each other -- not our doctrinal beliefs -- is the greatest witness to the world."

"So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love."
 1 Corinthians 13:13

I guess my question would be this: why are you willingly exposing yourself (over and over, it sounds like) to these ideas that are just plain wrong, much less lauding them?

There is a great deal of truth to be found in many Catholic and Protestant books and I will not discard them simply because their authors come from a different faith tradition from mine. Why would I close my mind because of a few doctrinal differences when they still have some great Christian insight to share?
And why not read books that have a different perspective from your own? Should I just abandon Aristotle or Charles Darwin because now I'm Orthodox?

This has surely had a lingering effect on us, and the idea of joining to a Church like the Catholic Church (as it is described above) is not exactly something we could expect to happen easily.

Not only should we not expect it but we shouldn't want it, in my opinion. I am afraid that joining with Rome could end up corrupting our faith and liturgy.
But there is a difference between having ecumenism with Rome and allowing ourselves to be absorbed under the papacy.



I did find their writings to contain enough errors that one could just as easily be led away from apostolic Christianity.


Think of how many people that have become Christians for the first time or have become strengthened in their faith as a result of reading these books. I know I have. I went through a period of serious doubt in high school until I read The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. Thank God for him!

"Well I'm against killing Jews and think it's a great sin, but I don't think it's right to force our government to hold to our morality"?

I wouldn't necessarily go far enough as to compare Kerry's stance on legalized abortion with nazism.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2005, 08:48:51 PM by Matthew777 »
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Offline Donna Rose

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Re: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic
« Reply #58 on: January 12, 2005, 08:50:27 PM »
Quote
I wouldn't necessarily go far enough as to compare Kerry's stance on legalized abortion with nazism.

this is by no means to minimize the Holocaust and Hitler's agenda of genocide, but far more innocent souls have died at the hands of abortion here in the USA than did during Nazism. i dont have the numbers at my disposal, but ask and i know people on this forum who can corroborate what i am saying.
hmmmm...

Offline Nacho

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Re: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic
« Reply #59 on: January 12, 2005, 09:19:32 PM »
Quote
Regarding Kerry, the thing that gets me is that if this was in any other time, every Christian would be throwing a fit about such double-talk. Can you imagine a German Catholic Bishop around the time of Hitler saying "Well I'm against killing Jews and think it's a great sin, but I don't think it's right to force our government to hold to our morality"?

Putting American politics aside, that's a pretty good comparision even though abortion is a much worse widespread holocaust. I'm going to have to use that qoute in the future if I happen to come accross some of those lefty Spong/Gene Robinson/Catholics for choice type people that think their ways are so superior. I'm sure this will throw them for a loop.... O0
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Offline Matthew777

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Re: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic
« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2005, 04:25:13 PM »
I know I may get some heat over saying this but other than the seven theses that I provided, there are very few major reasons why I would not want to be a Roman Catholic.
Perhaps I do not know enough to make this statement but I wouldn't mind being a Byzantine Catholic. However, I love the members of St. Gregorios so much and the sense of true Christian fellowship that we have, and the ethnic diversity, and I love the beauty, poetry and richness of the Divine Liturgy of St. James so much that it would be nearly impossible to imagine leaving the Malankara Church in favor of the Byzantine Church and neither would I ever desire to.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2005, 04:26:05 PM by Matthew777 »
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic
« Reply #61 on: January 13, 2005, 04:41:21 PM »
Why don't you describe your parish to us? What language do they use mostly? Where do people come from? Are there lots of Indians there? Are there lots of American converts?

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Offline Matthew777

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Re: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic
« Reply #62 on: January 13, 2005, 04:50:20 PM »
Why don't you describe your parish to us?

The Church building itself used to be an Episcopalian Church and therefore, the alter is facing North instead of East.

What language do they use mostly?
Anastasios

The liturgy itself is mostly in English but it also contains certian words and phrases of Latin, Aramaic, Syriac and an Indian dialect.

Where do people come from? Are there lots of Indians there? Are there lots of American converts?

Roughly half the congregation are converts from either Roman Catholicism or Protestantism but mostly Catholicism. Father Michael, Father James and Deacon Gabriel are former Catholics. Father David is a former member of the Assemblies of God and Father Anthony is a former member of the Episcopalien Church and was a priest of that church for roughly thirty years before he converted to Orthodoxy.

Roughly the other half is split between Ethiopian, Indian and Eastern European Christians.

There is a rather interesting history surrounding the founding of the church in my town. In the 1980's, Father Michael Hatcher was a seminarian at Gonzaga University's Bishop White Seminary but, from what I have heard, he had doubts about celibacy and the Roman church's lack of adherence to Apostolic Tradition. At Gonzaga, he met Gita, a woman from India and a member of India's Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church. They eventually fell in love, he left the seminary, and then they got married. Still desiring to become a priest and dissatisfied with Catholicism, he became a priest in the Orthodox Church and founded the first Malankara church in Spokane. Subsequently, two friends he had in Bishop White's Seminary joined Hatcher, one becoming a deacon and the other becoming a priest.
My father's parents were Greek immigrants and I was baptized in to the Greek Orthodox Church as an infant. My mother is Catholic so my father converted to the Roman faith and my brother and I were raised Catholic.
In high school, I started questioning the Roman church after seeing the Pope at World Youth Day and eventually, I was introduced to the Orthodox Syrian Church of India through a friend from school whose father is one of the deacons at the church who converted from Roman Catholicism.

Please feel free to ask any more questions on my Church that you may have and may peace be upon you.

« Last Edit: January 13, 2005, 04:52:51 PM by Matthew777 »
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Offline Schultz

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Re: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic
« Reply #63 on: January 13, 2005, 05:29:40 PM »
Quote
In high school, I started questioning the Roman church after seeing the Pope at World Youth Day...

I'm just curious.  What was it about seeing the Pope at this event that led you to question the Roman church?
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Offline Matthew777

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Re: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic
« Reply #64 on: January 13, 2005, 05:34:15 PM »


I'm just curious. What was it about seeing the Pope at this event that led you to question the Roman church?

Some of that story is much too personal to share on this discussion board. But if you are really interested, you can PM me about it.

Let's just say that the excursion was unpleasant and dissapointing enough to begin my doubt of the papacy.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2005, 05:35:13 PM by Matthew777 »
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Offline Arystarcus

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Re: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic
« Reply #65 on: January 14, 2005, 01:54:24 AM »
Quote
Let's just say that the excursion was unpleasant and dissapointing enough to begin my doubt of the papacy.

Wow, musta been something then! I find it interesting that you began to doubt the papacy after this experience. I guess it had to start somewhere though...

In Christ,
Aaron

Offline SaintShenouti

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Re: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic
« Reply #66 on: January 14, 2005, 01:32:34 PM »
It's like that song from Lesiem- Fundamentum.  The fall of Rome.  Anyone read Pope Timothy II Aelurus of Alexandria's letters?  '...wicked Leo of Rome...'  Ah, I love my church, heheh.

Offline Jakub

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Re: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic
« Reply #67 on: January 14, 2005, 02:22:20 PM »
There is one thing to be boastful of one's faith in Christ, I do resent arrogance & ridicule of other's practice, I would choose my words & expression careful my friend.

james
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic
« Reply #68 on: January 14, 2005, 02:30:54 PM »
It's like that song from Lesiem- Fundamentum. The fall of Rome. Anyone read Pope Timothy II Aelurus of Alexandria's letters? '...wicked Leo of Rome...' Ah, I love my church, heheh.

Dear SaintShenouti,

Jakub's right.  In the aftermath of the Chalcedonian/Non-Chalcedonian debates of last year (I think?), we decided that, for the sake of peaceful conversation, each side's saints/theologians would be referred to in a non-controversial way.  "Wicked Leo of Rome", the way you are using it (as opposed to a quote from an actual text relevant to a thread) does not qualify.  I'm not saying you need to call him a saint, but simply refer to him as "Leo of Rome", if you feel mentioning him is somehow relevant to the thread. 

The same goes for some of our "controversial" figures, with regard to the EO. 
« Last Edit: January 14, 2005, 02:31:02 PM by Mor Ephrem »
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Offline Elisha

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Re: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic
« Reply #69 on: January 14, 2005, 02:52:26 PM »


Dear SaintShenouti,

Jakub's right. In the aftermath of the Chalcedonian/Non-Chalcedonian debates of last year (I think?), we decided that, for the sake of peaceful conversation, each side's saints/theologians would be referred to in a non-controversial way. "Wicked Leo of Rome", the way you are using it (as opposed to a quote from an actual text relevant to a thread) does not qualify. I'm not saying you need to call him a saint, but simply refer to him as "Leo of Rome", if you feel mentioning him is somehow relevant to the thread.

The same goes for some of our "controversial" figures, with regard to the EO.


FYI.  In Fr. Seraphim Rose's "The Place of Bl. Augustine in The Orthodox Church" he mentions referring to other "Church's" saints and says that for the sake of discussion they would say (and I think he was referring to Saints/historical figures referring to another in letters) the "Francis the Latin Theologian of Assisi" or whatever.  I don't think anyone has a right to complain about that - which it seems to what the board is espousing (and what a few former members got all upitty about).

Offline SaintShenouti

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Re: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic
« Reply #70 on: January 14, 2005, 08:39:18 PM »
I was only quoting a historical reference to Abba Timothy, to note the Oriental Orthodox stance against the Tome.  Forgive my offense, brethren.

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Re: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic
« Reply #71 on: January 14, 2005, 08:49:32 PM »
No problem, man.  We just don't want things to get too crazy around here again.  :)
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Offline Jakub

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Re: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic
« Reply #72 on: January 14, 2005, 09:23:09 PM »
I have no problem with one who defends and expresses their faith and beliefs in a rejoiceful manner, but do dislike rudness, I've taken to task many of my own on their behavior towards the Orthodox & Eastern Rite Catholics.

Of course I'm not your everyday Roman Catholic, I have a few peculiarities...some that are even troubling to me.

james
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Offline Tabby

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Re: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic
« Reply #73 on: January 21, 2005, 10:53:00 AM »
As a Roman Catholic convert from Protestantism, I thought I'd just give my honest opinion of your reasons for leaving the Roman Catholic Church.



I am in some agreement with you on this issue. I have no desire to return to the Latin Mass, but I also think some things went too "Protestant". I especially think the priest should face the altar (not the people), and there should be no altar girls. Much of the mystery of the Liturgy has been hidden over the past 40 years.



This makes me quite uncomfortable as well. However, two points: (1) this is not official Catholic doctrine; and (2) when understood properly (which is not the case even with some of the adherents), it is not heretical. We are all "co-redemptrix" in the sense that Paul states that he is "making up what is lacking in Christ's sufferings". However, many of the proponents of this mariology make me uncomfortable.



This makes me extremely sad, and angry at the bishops especially. However, I have read enough Church history (both East and West) to know that there have always been terrible scandals of the clergy and hierarchy, both East and West, but that does not diminish the Truth of the Faith in any way.



This never bothered me as much, because I have seen that most orthodox bishops do not have this problem (assuming they are in place for long enough), and most non-1st world countries don't have this problem. Especially the younger bishops do not have this problem, as they spend much time and energy and prayer to foster vocations, and it is working. It is a localized problem that can be simply (but not necessarily easily) solved. Yes, there will be some areas in which there will be a priest shortage, but this can be rectified over time.



This is distressing, and used to bother me very much. However, I have seen over the past decade that the pendulum is swinging the other way now - which is common in Church history. Just look at the 1980's: all the rage was Liberation Theology, and it seemed to be taking over the Church. However, just two decades later, it is a ridiculed ideology, even in the Church. The Truth always is victorious, even when heresy seems to be on top (see: 4th century Arianism).



I am personally very supportive of the celebate priesthood, and I think it would be a terrible time right now to change the discipline in the Latin Church. The reason being that it would be giving in to the sex-dominated culture that can't accept celibacy as a legitimate calling. I'm supportive of married priesthood in the Eastern Church, where there is the celibate witness of the monks. However, I think the celibate priesthood is a wonderful witness to the sex-saturated Western culture.



I won't disagree with the singing issue - it is painful to me at times as well. However, I have been in a number of parishes over the past 12 years as a Catholic (I've moved a number of times), and I've always found them to be very joyful and full of life. Most of my closest friends today have come from relationships built in Catholic parishes.

I also think the Church should constantly be having "renewal" in its ranks, and sometimes this means changes to outward signs and actions in order to better reach the modern world. Our Faith cannot be altered, but it can be presented in different forms and ways. However, I will agree that much that fell under "renewal" in the past 40 years has been in actuality a rejection of our sacred Tradition. Often there is a swing to extremes that happens when the Church is attempting to make legitimate changes. But over time, they level out.

Just my perspective as a Roman Catholic - I wish you much joy and peace in Orthodoxy.



yeah I second that
"If only I could die because then I would not die" ~ St. John of the Cross

"God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son" (Jn 3;16) "Mary so loved us that she gave her only b

Offline marlo

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Re: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic
« Reply #74 on: April 24, 2009, 12:01:13 AM »
You may also need to check and research the changes between the true orthodox church and the Orthodox church  now, read the arguments of the Old Calendarist, or Pre Nikonian Orthodoxy in Russia, and the sign of the cross. This might Liberate you.




  It means that people are free to choose what form of religion they wish, but it does NOT mean that people get to choose what Catholicism is in a smorgasbord format. 


Please back this up. Not that I necessarily disagree with you but I'd like some information on how the right to conscience does not apply to those within the Roman Church.


John Kerry is hardly an example of a good Catholic.


Is that our right to judge? We do not know his heart.


 My point was that Catholics are free to believe in these apparations or not.  They are not required for one to be a good Catholic. 

I agree.

Offline Thomas

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Re: Why I am no longer a Roman Catholic
« Reply #75 on: April 24, 2009, 11:11:44 AM »
I am locking this topic as it is an old one, four years old, in which the latest response does not appear to meet the initial purpose of the  topic.  If one wishes to reopen the topic please remember that Convert Issues forum is not a discussion of faith issues or a place to discuss Roman Catholic  and Orthodoxy, there are other forums for that. Our purpose is clearly written at the head of the Forum column and is to address issues converts and inquiors have seeking basic Orthodox beliefs, practices, and issues that confront new converts and inquiorors---it is not a place for debate.

Thomas
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Thomas