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Author Topic: When harboring religious refugees, is lying permissible?  (Read 2652 times) Average Rating: 0
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Velsigne
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« Reply #45 on: January 29, 2013, 09:17:35 PM »

In another thread, this topic was brought up.

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I am going to start a new thread to discuss this realistic question regarding hiding refugees from an ungodly government who seeks to kill them. For example, Nazis vs. Jews/Orthodox Christians was a real issue because Nazis imprisoned and killed both Jews and Orthodox Christians.

This threat is very real today in Iran where a U.S. Citizen is being held without bond and may be executed for preaching the word of God in an atheistic Islamic country.

If this scenario were to happen today, is lying permissible when harboring religious refugees from authorities who have outlawed certain groups and who seek to kill them?



Archbishop Damaskinos of Athens apparently thought so as he told priests to issue Baptismal Certificates to Jews without requiring Baptism, in order to save them from the Nazis.  This was in a time when there was a great famine in Greece too, with people literally dying in the streets, and not enough people to even bury them, and the Germans had taken all the paper, so it was difficult.  Priests also took in Jewish children, and some were sent to the death camps as a result.

There was also an island off Greece where the Nazis demanded a list of all the Jews, and, if I remember correctly, the mayor and priest showed up with a list of two names, theirs.  No Jews on that island perished due to Nazis.
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orthros
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« Reply #46 on: January 29, 2013, 09:18:37 PM »

I'm surprised by some of the responses here. Saints lied all the times, and not over stuff like murder, but about things like not wanting to be bothered by people. And this is stuff in things like hagiographical texts, which are supposed to teach us proper morality and to embiggen our souls. *shrugs*

Coming from a background in which I have been taught that all lies are always and objectively evil, I am very interested in reading these texts.  Could you provide a few quotes?  Or perhaps books that contain such stories?
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #47 on: January 29, 2013, 11:33:17 PM »

orthros,

I will see what I can dig up, I remember reading those kinds of stories in various "lives of the saints" type books which I no longer have, but I can probably dig some stuff up online. One that does come to mind is in St. John Chrysostom when he recounts lying to his friend and tricking him (On the Priesthood, 1); you can read about it there in more detail, but fwiw, towards the end of that he says:

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But, my admirable and excellent Sir, this is the very reason why I took the precaution of saying that it was a good thing to employ this kind of deceit, not only in war, and in dealing with enemies, but also in peace, and in dealing with our dearest friends. For as a proof that it is beneficial not only to the deceivers, but also to those who are deceived; if you go to any of the physicians and ask them how they relieve their patients from disease, they will tell you that they do not depend upon their professional skill alone, but sometimes conduct the sick to health by availing themselves of deceit, and blending the assistance which they derive from it with their art. For when the waywardness of the patient and the obstinacy of the complaint baffle the counsels of the physicians, it is then necessary to put on the mask of deceit in order that, as on the stage, they may be able to hide what really takes place.

I'll see what else I can find...
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #48 on: January 31, 2013, 12:59:34 AM »

The thing is, if you didn't lie, perhaps one can depict as the non-liar as an accessory to murder...


In the above scenario, they would be an accessory.

Agreed.


If there was a let's say, during the crusades, there was a Muslim running from the "Christians', and landed on your door step.  As a Christian you took him in.  the crusaders approach you and trust you as a Christian and ask "have you seen the Muslim".   

You know good and well they'd kill him if you said "Yes he's inside".  By saying "Yes", you gave him over to death.   By saying "no", you let God be the judge.

In this case, I would say if you said "Yes" you would be guilty of murder.  If you said "No", you would not be guilty of bearing false witness, as you would be under duress of the sin of murder.
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« Reply #49 on: January 31, 2013, 01:09:26 AM »

The thing is, if you didn't lie, perhaps one can depict as the non-liar as an accessory to murder...


In the above scenario, they would be an accessory.

Agreed.


If there was a let's say, during the crusades, there was a Muslim running from the "Christians', and landed on your door step.  As a Christian you took him in.  the crusaders approach you and trust you as a Christian and ask "have you seen the Muslim".   

You know good and well they'd kill him if you said "Yes he's inside".  By saying "Yes", you gave him over to death.   By saying "no", you let God be the judge.

In this case, I would say if you said "Yes" you would be guilty of murder.  If you said "No", you would not be guilty of bearing false witness, as you would be under duress of the sin of murder.

You will be RC within a month. There is no turning back now. PM Papist.
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #50 on: January 31, 2013, 10:58:20 PM »

The thing is, if you didn't lie, perhaps one can depict as the non-liar as an accessory to murder...


In the above scenario, they would be an accessory.

Agreed.


If there was a let's say, during the crusades, there was a Muslim running from the "Christians', and landed on your door step.  As a Christian you took him in.  the crusaders approach you and trust you as a Christian and ask "have you seen the Muslim".   

You know good and well they'd kill him if you said "Yes he's inside".  By saying "Yes", you gave him over to death.   By saying "no", you let God be the judge.

In this case, I would say if you said "Yes" you would be guilty of murder.  If you said "No", you would not be guilty of bearing false witness, as you would be under duress of the sin of murder.

You will be RC within a month. There is no turning back now. PM Papist.

haha, if that happens, I'd feel bad for the RC church.
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Maria
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« Reply #51 on: January 31, 2013, 11:45:21 PM »

The thing is, if you didn't lie, perhaps one can depict as the non-liar as an accessory to murder...


In the above scenario, they would be an accessory.

Agreed.


If there was a let's say, during the crusades, there was a Muslim running from the "Christians', and landed on your door step.  As a Christian you took him in.  the crusaders approach you and trust you as a Christian and ask "have you seen the Muslim".   

You know good and well they'd kill him if you said "Yes he's inside".  By saying "Yes", you gave him over to death.   By saying "no", you let God be the judge.

In this case, I would say if you said "Yes" you would be guilty of murder.  If you said "No", you would not be guilty of bearing false witness, as you would be under duress of the sin of murder.

You will be RC within a month. There is no turning back now. PM Papist.

haha, if that happens, I'd feel bad for the RC church.

Nah, I do not think the Roman Catholic Church would want you.
Once exposed to Orthodoxy, there is no turning back.
The RC would send you back to us.

If you would be killed along with the refugees you harbored, what would be the point of telling the authorities anything at all?

In a case like that, I guess I would trust in the Lord, and say in a loud voice, "Sure, you can search my home, I do not think you will find anything." And then I would invite them in for a cup of coffee and cookies. There have been miracles where people have been made invisible or perhaps the godless authorities have been blinded to their presence. Our God can work miracles. However, I cannot remember where I read this as I have read several lives of the saints, including the lives of neo-martyrs of Soviet Russia.

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