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Author Topic: Catholic Receiving Orthodox Communion  (Read 6913 times) Average Rating: 0
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #135 on: February 07, 2013, 01:17:13 AM »

What is a "Greco-Russian Eastern Orthodox Church"? Another one living-room synod?

No. It refers to the Orthodox Churches.
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« Reply #136 on: February 07, 2013, 01:18:10 AM »

When is it ok for Orthodox to receive communion, or confession for that matter, from a Catholic priest?

When an Orthodox person wishes to leave the Orthodox Church and join the Roman Catholic Church.
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« Reply #137 on: February 07, 2013, 01:19:00 AM »

When is it ok for Orthodox to receive communion, or confession for that matter, from a Catholic priest?

When he wills to make an apostasy.
To ensure I understand you, let’s say a U.S. Army soldier gets an 18 month deployment to Afghanistan and there are no Orthodox priests available, he just suffers the entire 18 months?  No confession, not communion, nothing?

There may be other options besides leaving the Church.
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« Reply #138 on: February 07, 2013, 01:20:07 AM »

When is it ok for Orthodox to receive communion, or confession for that matter, from a Catholic priest?

When he wills to make an apostasy.
To ensure I understand you, let’s say a U.S. Army soldier gets an 18 month deployment to Afghanistan and there are no Orthodox priests available, he just suffers the entire 18 months?  No confession, not communion, nothing?

Michal is right. To knowingly receive non-Orthodox communion is, in effect, to apostasize. If the Church does not condone an Orthodox person or couple marrying outside the Church, then how much more serious is it for an Orthodox person to partake of heterodox communion? Think about it.
I’m not saying I disagree, but wanting to clarify.  I was under the understanding ones Bishop could authorize it for a temporary amount of time.

A bishop might do so, but he would be going against the canons he pledged to keep at his consecration. Not even a bishop can bless something like that.
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« Reply #139 on: February 07, 2013, 01:20:31 AM »

To ensure I understand you, let’s say a U.S. Army soldier gets an 18 month deployment to Afghanistan and there are no Orthodox priests available, he just suffers the entire 18 months?  No confession, not communion, nothing?

Whether he goes to the Catholic priest or not he will have no confession, no communion, etc. I believe that God will grant such a person grace in a mystical way in such cases.

This.
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« Reply #140 on: February 07, 2013, 01:22:26 AM »

Don't OO and EO laity intercommune to some degree even in the US? I've heard that there's practical intercommunion in Syria between Antiochians, Melkites and Jacobites. Would that qualify as apostasy?

In places where there's persecution, intercommunion happens.  I guess when we have our backs against the wall, those petty theological arguments doesn't seem as important.

This practice goes against tradition and is tantamount to laziness. It did not happen in Russian during Soviet persecution nor was it blessed by the early Holy Fathers under Roman and Persian persecution. Theology is not petty.
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« Reply #141 on: February 07, 2013, 01:25:29 AM »

A Catholic priest answered a question about whether a Catholic may receive the Eucharist in an Orthodox Church:

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So if you are stationed in a country where no Roman Catholic church is nearby, say within an hour’s drive, but there is a Greek Orthodox church near you, you can lawfully — according to the Catholic Code of Canon Law — attend their liturgical services and receive holy Communion, or confession, or the anointing of the sick, because all seven sacraments instituted by Christ are valid in the Orthodox churches.

I think the priest forgot to mention one thing: the Catholic would need to get approval from the Orthodox priest before receiving Communion; whether the Orthodox priest would agree to this, is another story.

Where does the scripture say that one needs permsission to receive the eucharist? When Paul regulated it he said nothing about needing permssion.

In John Ch. 6, it talks extensively about the nature of Holy Communion, which is the Body and Blood of Christ. In Paul's letters he also says he doesn't want you to receive in an unworthy state, or else you may eat and drink unto your condemnation.

Paul told each man to examine HIMSELF. This implies that the man HIMSELF determines whether or not he is worthy. Btw, this would have nothing to do with an Orthodox priest giving permission to a Catholic priest and vice versa.

And, St. Paul also said, many who deemed themselves worthy and communed got sick and died precisely because they were incorrect in their assumption.
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« Reply #142 on: February 07, 2013, 01:47:59 AM »

I disagree with the terminology "Catholic Communion" and "Orthodox Communion" when referring to the Holy Eucharist. It's either the Eucharist or it isn't. Jesus doesn't come in different flavors.

How about the Lutherans and Anglicans?
I call theirs bread and wine, because that's what it is.
Now you see where we are coming from.
Except we really aren't "coming from" the same place. The Eastern Orthodox answer to whether the Eucharist exists outside the Church is "we don't know." We actually believe that Anglican and Lutheran "communion" does not have the Real Presence.

Depends who you ask really.  Do you think those who rebaptize Catholic converts would just leave it a vague "we don't know" when clearly even baptism isn't viewed as "valid"?

The Orthodox actually have a very different viewpoint on how the Eucharist comes to be, not in the mechanical way the Catholics have defined it.  If a small group of lay Orthodox Christians are trapped in an island and all they have is rice crackers and apple juice, can they celebrate the Eucharist?  The Catholic Church would say "no" definitively.  The Orthodox Church wouldn't say outright "yes" or "no", but believing in the mercy of God and the circumstances of the people who cannot possibly have the proper bread and wine, we don't discount the possibility that God will grant these people the Eucharist.

What are you talking about?
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« Reply #143 on: February 07, 2013, 01:50:49 AM »

When is it ok for Orthodox to receive communion, or confession for that matter, from a Catholic priest?

When he wills to make an apostasy.
To ensure I understand you, let’s say a U.S. Army soldier gets an 18 month deployment to Afghanistan and there are no Orthodox priests available, he just suffers the entire 18 months?  No confession, not communion, nothing?

He also isn't allowed to make use of whores because he can't see his wife.
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« Reply #144 on: February 07, 2013, 01:53:26 AM »

Is there anything someone is supposed to do when they know a priest or bishop whose jurisdiction they are under either implicitly or explicitly allows intercommunion? Obviously the practice is wrong but if the hierarch allows it what can one do? BTW this is a hypothetical scenario.
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« Reply #145 on: February 07, 2013, 02:05:33 AM »

Probably tell another Bishop or Priest and let them handle it, however, I would first recommend just personally asking the Bishop/Priest in question, what if he has a good reason or it is not as it seems? Don't get him in trouble if you can't prove his guilt.
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« Reply #146 on: February 07, 2013, 02:05:47 AM »

Is there anything someone is supposed to do when they know a priest or bishop whose jurisdiction they are under either implicitly or explicitly allows intercommunion? Obviously the practice is wrong but if the hierarch allows it what can one do? BTW this is a hypothetical scenario.

Unless you know better, you entrust that they know what they are doing.
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« Reply #147 on: February 07, 2013, 02:23:43 AM »

The question of what one should do when one sees others doing wrong, is complex.

Time to consult one's spiritual father, not judge, and pray for light and grace for everyone.
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« Reply #148 on: February 07, 2013, 02:27:56 AM »

If that is so, why are Orthodox and Catholics sometimes permitted to partake of the others' Communion?

We aren't; you are because, well, I don't know.
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« Reply #149 on: February 07, 2013, 02:58:09 AM »

There have also been "discreet" instances of inter-communion between Orthodox and Episcopalians, and Orthodox and Lutherans, and Orthodox and Anglicans, and doubtless other interesting combinations.

However, for an Eastern Orthodox to take communion in a non-Eastern Orthodox church, is apostasy and is a grievous sin. Much better to die IN communion WITHOUT communion, than to die OUT of communion WITH "communion." For then you die outside the Church, which is the Body of Christ. This issue very often came up back in Arianism's heyday.

It is also completely not possible for an Eastern Orthodox priest to give communion to an Oriental Orthodox, or a Roman Catholic, or a Lutheran, or an Anglican, although it certainly happens. Many other "impossible" things do happen from time to time, but private unbelief doesn't erase the dogma, and private conduct doesn't alter the rule.

"Greco-Russian" is how the Eastern Orthodox Church was distinguished from other faith-confessions, back in the day. It just means the faith of the Greek Orthodox and the Russian Orthodox, which includes all the other Chalcedonian Orthodox. The modern distinction between "Eastern" Orthodox and "Oriental" Orthodox was very recently promoted and I read some old fuddy-duddy books. Even the distinction between "Roman Catholic" and "Eastern Orthodox" (whether Chalcedonian or anti-Chalcedonian) is of very recent vintage, comparatively. "Greek Catholic" used to mean "Greek Orthodox," etc., etc. So I was speaking in a slightly antique fashion, for no particular reason. 


Under the Communists, most Orthodox Christians in Russia were not able to receive Holy Communion or the other Holy Mysteries for decades. This is why it is so important to pray unceasingly that we may have the grace to persevere.
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« Reply #150 on: February 07, 2013, 04:30:43 AM »

"Greco-Russian" is how the Eastern Orthodox Church was distinguished from other faith-confessions, back in the day. It just means the faith of the Greek Orthodox and the Russian Orthodox, which includes all the other Chalcedonian Orthodox.

Really? I know the term "Greek Church" or "Greek faith" was commonly used back then but never heard about that "Greco-Russian" chimere. Can you list some documents it was used in?
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« Reply #151 on: February 07, 2013, 04:34:32 AM »

I admit it's not seen often, but as to who/where, Met. Kallistos mentions it for one, but doesn't like it much...
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« Reply #152 on: February 07, 2013, 04:41:08 AM »

Paul didn't say anything about a lot of stuff. Wink

Then we have the liberty of conscience to observe the eucharist without another man's permission.
If you're sola scriptura, sure. Shocked

Any teaching that is in addition to the scripture would be the "doctrines and commandments of men."
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« Reply #153 on: February 07, 2013, 04:45:20 AM »

I admit it's not seen often, but as to who/where, Met. Kallistos mentions it for one, but doesn't like it much...

Still no proof it was used in the past.
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« Reply #154 on: February 07, 2013, 04:46:17 AM »

The Orthodox Church wasn't published in the past? Interesting!
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« Reply #155 on: February 07, 2013, 04:48:27 AM »

Behold!
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« Reply #156 on: February 07, 2013, 04:55:58 AM »

And, St. Paul also said, many who deemed themselves worthy and communed got sick and died precisely because they were incorrect in their assumption.

This does not cancel out the new covenant principle of conscience. Our consciences are free in Christ to make false assumptions.

I will put my laws in their minds and write them in their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother; saying, 'Know the Lord,' for ALL shall know me, from the LEAST of them to the greatest of them."

It appears as if we are all EQUAL in this dispensation. I may take the eucharist if I please and when I please even if it be to my own condemnation.
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« Reply #157 on: February 07, 2013, 04:56:48 AM »


Hapgood's Euchologion and one parish' name from the late XIX century. Does not prove it's a historical term (unless for Fr. Aidan late XIX century is historical).
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« Reply #158 on: February 07, 2013, 04:58:07 AM »

Google doesn't lie!
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« Reply #159 on: February 07, 2013, 06:29:38 AM »


It appears as if we are all EQUAL in this dispensation. I may take the eucharist if I please and when I please even if it be to my own condemnation.

thethinker, have you ever read the Orthodox pre-communion prayers, which prospective communicants are expected to pray before receiving? They are stuffed full of scripture, and easily put the lie to the nonsense you have just posted.
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« Reply #160 on: February 07, 2013, 08:45:41 AM »

When is it ok for Orthodox to receive communion, or confession for that matter, from a Catholic priest?

When he wills to make an apostasy.
To ensure I understand you, let’s say a U.S. Army soldier gets an 18 month deployment to Afghanistan and there are no Orthodox priests available, he just suffers the entire 18 months?  No confession, not communion, nothing?

He also isn't allowed to make use of whores because he can't see his wife.
I am a simple man.  While I understood every explanation provided for me (which I appreciate everyone who responded, thank you!), this made sense in a way my mind says, “Oh, no kidding!” 

Again, thanks everyone!  I enjoy learning about Orthodoxy!
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« Reply #161 on: February 07, 2013, 09:01:10 AM »

Paul didn't say anything about a lot of stuff. Wink

Then we have the liberty of conscience to observe the eucharist without another man's permission.
If you're sola scriptura, sure. Shocked

Any teaching that is in addition to the scripture would be the "doctrines and commandments of men."
Even the teachings of Jesus not written down in scripture (John 21:25)?
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« Reply #162 on: February 07, 2013, 10:35:50 AM »

I may take the eucharist if I please and when I please even if it be to my own condemnation.

Aside from the fact that Communion is a communal act (not a pun, the two words just have the same etymology), which you are completely ignoring, where Paul writes that all things are lawful for him, he also writes that not all things are beneficial, and the Eucharist can be taken to condemnation. It is the priest's job to ensure that the Eucharist is beneficial for us and not to our condemnation.
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« Reply #163 on: February 07, 2013, 10:42:05 AM »


Hapgood's Euchologion and one parish' name from the late XIX century. Does not prove it's a historical term (unless for Fr. Aidan late XIX century is historical).

Why does this even matter so much?

Anything that happened before today can be considered historical.  History, I believe, refers to those things that occurred in the past.  But, I could be wrong.
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« Reply #164 on: February 07, 2013, 10:52:39 AM »

The question of what one should do when one sees others doing wrong, is complex.

Time to consult one's spiritual father, not judge, and pray for light and grace for everyone.

^ This is the kind of statement that makes me thank God for priests, Orthodox and Catholic.
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« Reply #165 on: February 07, 2013, 10:59:17 AM »

Any teaching that is in addition to the scripture would be the "doctrines and commandments of men."
Is your teaching that "any teaching that is in addition to the scripture would be the 'doctrines and commandments of men'" also a commandment of men? Wink

Does St. Paul ever say anywhere to not give communion to non-Christians?
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« Reply #166 on: February 07, 2013, 12:25:50 PM »

Is there anything someone is supposed to do when they know a priest or bishop whose jurisdiction they are under either implicitly or explicitly allows intercommunion? Obviously the practice is wrong but if the hierarch allows it what can one do? BTW this is a hypothetical scenario.

One could make a fuss, but nothing may be done. God knows what is going on and he will see to it. Read Ezekiel 8 and 9.
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« Reply #167 on: February 07, 2013, 12:31:09 PM »

And, St. Paul also said, many who deemed themselves worthy and communed got sick and died precisely because they were incorrect in their assumption.

This does not cancel out the new covenant principle of conscience. Our consciences are free in Christ to make false assumptions.

I will put my laws in their minds and write them in their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother; saying, 'Know the Lord,' for ALL shall know me, from the LEAST of them to the greatest of them."

It appears as if we are all EQUAL in this dispensation. I may take the eucharist if I please and when I please even if it be to my own condemnation.

The real Eucharist or that of the heterodox?
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« Reply #168 on: February 07, 2013, 01:01:12 PM »

I may take the eucharist if I please and when I please even if it be to my own condemnation.

Aside from the fact that Communion is a communal act (not a pun, the two words just have the same etymology), which you are completely ignoring, where Paul writes that all things are lawful for him, he also writes that not all things are beneficial, and the Eucharist can be taken to condemnation.

If the Eucharist is necessarily communal in the sense you say, then why did Paul say that a man could partake at home by himself (1 Cor. 11:34)?

Quote
It is the priest's job to ensure that the Eucharist is beneficial for us and not to our condemnation.

I couldn't disagree more. First, all believers were priests in Apostolic times. The Orthodox Church claims to be Apostolic. Second, the oversight of a priest suggests that God still deals with His people as with children. But Hebrews 8 is very clear that God no longer leads His people "by the hand." He treats His people as adults now. Adults are free to fail.
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« Reply #169 on: February 07, 2013, 01:07:54 PM »

I couldn't disagree more. First, all believers were priests in Apostolic times. The Orthodox Church claims to be Apostolic. Second, the oversight of a priest suggests that God still deals with His people as with children. But Hebrews 8 is very clear that God no longer leads His people "by the hand." He treats His people as adults now. Adults are free to fail.
I think "priest" is being equivocated here.
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« Reply #170 on: February 07, 2013, 02:25:04 PM »

If the Eucharist is necessarily communal in the sense you say, then why did Paul say that a man could partake at home by himself (1 Cor. 11:34)?

Ver. 34. “And if any man is hungry, let him eat at home.”
By permitting, he hinders it, and more strongly than by an absolute prohibition. For he brings him out of the church and sends him to his house, hereby severely reprimanding and ridiculing them, as slaves to the belly and unable to contain themselves. For he said not, “if any despise the poor,” but, “if any hunger,” discoursing as with impatient children; as with brute beasts which are slaves to appetite. Since it would be indeed very ridiculous, if, because they were hungry they were to eat at home.

Yet he was not content with this, but added also another more fearful thing, saying, “that your coming together be not unto judgment:” that ye come not unto chastisement, unto punishment, insulting the Church, dishonoring your brother. “For for this cause ye come together,” saith he, “that ye may love one another, that ye may profit and be profited. But if the contrary happen, it were better for you to feed yourselves at home.”

This, however, he said, that he might attract them to him the more. Yea, this was the very purpose both of his pointing out the injury that would arise from hence, and of his saying that condemnation was no trifling one, and terrifying them in every way, by the Mysteries, by the sick, by those that had died, by the other things before mentioned.

Quote
First, all believers were priests in Apostolic times.

Not all believers were presbyters and bishops who led the community and presided over the liturgy.

Quote
Second, the oversight of a priest suggests that God still deals with His people as with children. But Hebrews 8 is very clear that God no longer leads His people "by the hand." He treats His people as adults now. Adults are free to fail.

The word "bishop" (episcopos) literally means "overseer".

1Tim 4:14,16
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Titus 1:5
For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

1Pet 5:1-2
The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Acts 20:17,28
And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
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« Reply #171 on: February 07, 2013, 08:09:21 PM »

Not all believers were presbyters and bishops who led the community and presided over the liturgy.

This was true during the interim period between the old and new covenants and is NOT applicable today. It must be remembered that the first generation saints lived in the eclipse of the two covenants.

Quote
The word "bishop" (episcopos) literally means "overseer".

1Tim 4:14,16
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Titus 1:5
For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

1Pet 5:1-2
The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Acts 20:17,28
And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

These scriptures also are NOT applicable today. The saints of the apostolic age lived BEFORE the new covenant was ratified when God was still dealing with His people as with children. The new covenant principle is that God no more leads us "by the hand" and that no man teaches us (Hebrews 8:7-13). Note that verse 13 indicates that the old covenant was still passing away in their time. Paul had also indicated that the old covenant was "passing away" (2 Corinthians 3:4-11). Now that the old has fully passed God deals with us as adults. This means that we live according to conscience.
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« Reply #172 on: February 07, 2013, 08:20:26 PM »

Not all believers were presbyters and bishops who led the community and presided over the liturgy.

This was true during the interim period between the old and new covenants and is NOT applicable today. It must be remembered that the first generation saints lived in the eclipse of the two covenants.

Quote
The word "bishop" (episcopos) literally means "overseer".

1Tim 4:14,16
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Titus 1:5
For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

1Pet 5:1-2
The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Acts 20:17,28
And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

These scriptures also are NOT applicable today. The saints of the apostolic age lived BEFORE the new covenant was ratified when God was still dealing with His people as with children. The new covenant principle is that God no more leads us "by the hand" and that no man teaches us (Hebrews 8:7-13). Note that verse 13 indicates that the old covenant was still passing away in their time. Paul had also indicated that the old covenant was "passing away" (2 Corinthians 3:4-11). Now that the old has fully passed God deals with us as adults. This means that we live according to conscience.

All believers are priests but not in the same sense.  Not all are presiders over the Liturgy who leads the people.  God is a God of order and a certain order must be established during Liturgy.  Not everyone can come up.  Definitely the presence and the "Amen" of the people is required for the bread and wine to become the Eucharist, but not everyone has the right to be up at the altar table presiding.

And sure, no man teaches us today.  The priests and bishops are not teaching us anything new, but rather handing down the tradition that was handed to them.  All these came from Jesus Christ who is no mere man, he is the God-man, fully God, fully man.  So the bishops are not teachers in the sense that they come up with their own teaching.  Rather they are those who safeguard the traditions and hand them down to us faithfully as they have received them.
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« Reply #173 on: February 07, 2013, 08:41:29 PM »

Not all believers were presbyters and bishops who led the community and presided over the liturgy.

This was true during the interim period between the old and new covenants and is NOT applicable today. It must be remembered that the first generation saints lived in the eclipse of the two covenants.

Quote
The word "bishop" (episcopos) literally means "overseer".

1Tim 4:14,16
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Titus 1:5
For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

1Pet 5:1-2
The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Acts 20:17,28
And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

These scriptures also are NOT applicable today. The saints of the apostolic age lived BEFORE the new covenant was ratified when God was still dealing with His people as with children. The new covenant principle is that God no more leads us "by the hand" and that no man teaches us (Hebrews 8:7-13). Note that verse 13 indicates that the old covenant was still passing away in their time. Paul had also indicated that the old covenant was "passing away" (2 Corinthians 3:4-11). Now that the old has fully passed God deals with us as adults. This means that we live according to conscience.

Where do the Holy Scriptures teach of such a thing as a special transitional period which will cease?
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« Reply #174 on: February 07, 2013, 09:14:34 PM »

This... is NOT applicable today.

...

These scriptures also are NOT applicable today.

Interesting coming from someone who holds to sola scriptura.

Quote
The saints of the apostolic age lived BEFORE the new covenant was ratified

When was the New covenant ratified?

Since you have admitted the historical appointment of bishops and presbyters in the New Testament, when did the Church historically stop appointing bishops and presbyters?
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« Reply #175 on: February 07, 2013, 09:18:37 PM »

It is established that Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, in his well-known book "The Orthodox Church," documents the usage (much more prevalent a hundred years ago) of calling the Orthodox Church the "Greco-Russian Church." It is established that Isabel Hapgood's best known book regarding Orthodoxy is entitled, "Service Book of the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Apostolic (Greco-Russian) Church." (That came out in 1906.) I don't think there's an Orthodox priest in this country, who hasn't used that book to conduct one service or another. A quick internetz search shows that Orthodox cemeteries in America in the 1880s to early 1900s period were titled "Greco-Russian" cemeteries, and that the original proper name of St. Demetrios Greek Orthodox Church in Seattle was, back in 1898, "Greco-Russian Orthodox Church of St. Spiridon." Vladimir Soloviev (+1900) was a Russian Orthodox layman who was very sympathetic to the Papacy, so a sort of favored son of Eastern Catholics. He wrote of his canonical church allegiance that he was "a member of the true and venerable Eastern or Greco-Russian Orthodox church," (canonical Russian Orthodox Church).

It was not only the Eastern Orthodox who used to commonly refer to themselves as the "Greco-Russian" Orthodox. The Roman Catholic church also used this title for us. Fr. Heinrich Joseph Dominicus Denzinger (+1883), in his still-popular work, "Sources of Catholic Dogma," includes a Profession of Faith for the "Greco-Russian Church" to come into union with Rome. Also, Fr. Karl Rahner (1904-1984), Jesuit scholar, used this term of "Greco-Russian Church" in his "Encyclopedia of Theology." It first appeared in 1975.

In the book "Sketches of the Rites and Customs of the Greco-Russian Church," by H. Romanoff, we read that the term Greco-Russian is used in an official church service (he is describing the reception into Orthodoxy of Princess Dagmar of Denmark): The Metropolitan says, "Rise and stand firm; stand in fear." She rises and says, "This true Orthodox Greco-Russian Faith, which I now, of my own free will, confess and sincerely hold, I will confess and hold with the help of God... to my latest [sic] breath..." This book came out in 1868. It also says, "The bride of a Russian Grand Duke must be a member of the Greco-Russian Church."

"On this occasion too [reception of a convert into the Orthodox Church], if the person do not bear a name which is strictly Russian--that is, one borne by a saint that is acknowledged by the Greco-Russian Church--he receives a new one."

St. Philaret, metropolitan of Moscow (+1867), was a gigantic figure in the 19th century in the world's largest Orthodox national church. He wrote a catechism entitled, "Christian Catechism of the Orthodox Catholic Eastern Greco-Russian Church," which is still pretty popular. It came out in 1823.

More recently, in 1995, Holy Trinity-St. Sergius Lavra published a hardcover by P.V. Kalitin. The title of this Russian-language book is, in English, "Historical Dictionary of Russian Clergy Authors of the Greco-Russian Church." So I don't suppose the usage has ever fully died out.

Quid autem multa?

Michal, can you explain for us why you described my use of the words "Greco-Russian" as a "chimere"? Thanks in advance!
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« Reply #176 on: February 07, 2013, 09:27:18 PM »

I stand corrected. I thought you went further in the past (I had XVIIth century in mind for example).

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Michal, can you explain for us why you described my use of the words "Greco-Russian" as a "chimere"? Thanks in advance!

I don't like such linguistic conglomerates.
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« Reply #177 on: February 07, 2013, 09:41:20 PM »

Oh, that makes much more sense than "a loose sleeveless robe worn by Anglican bishops over the rochet"!

Actually, I learned that while I thought the term "Greco-Russian Church" was more or less "archaic" since the early 1900s, it seems to be alive and kicking in the 21st century...
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« Reply #178 on: February 08, 2013, 12:01:04 AM »

It appears as if we are all EQUAL in this dispensation. I may take the eucharist if I please and when I please even if it be to my own condemnation.

You're saying that all eucharists are the same.  They're not.  This confusion causes mixed Orthodox-<Other Christian> couples to commune in either church because they believe that God is everywhere.  The Orthodox practice closed communion for a reason.  I refer you to the following post:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,48786.msg854163.html#msg854163
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« Reply #179 on: February 08, 2013, 12:06:57 AM »

The saints of the apostolic age lived BEFORE the new covenant was ratified

When was the new covenant ratified?  Was it in my lifetime?

when God was still dealing with His people as with children. The new covenant principle is that God no more leads us "by the hand" and that no man teaches us (Hebrews 8:7-13). Note that verse 13 indicates that the old covenant was still passing away in their time. Paul had also indicated that the old covenant was "passing away" (2 Corinthians 3:4-11). Now that the old has fully passed God deals with us as adults. This means that we live according to conscience.

What is conscience?

Quote
> # 1801: Conscience can remain in ignorance or make erroneous judgements, such ignorance and errors are not always free of guilt.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,6065.0.html

For the quote: http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/moral.html
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