OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 25, 2014, 05:00:36 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Catholic Receiving Orthodox Communion  (Read 6603 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« on: January 24, 2013, 11:36:11 AM »

A Catholic priest answered a question about whether a Catholic may receive the Eucharist in an Orthodox Church:

Quote
So if you are stationed in a country where no Roman Catholic church is nearby, say within an hour’s drive, but there is a Greek Orthodox church near you, you can lawfully — according to the Catholic Code of Canon Law — attend their liturgical services and receive holy Communion, or confession, or the anointing of the sick, because all seven sacraments instituted by Christ are valid in the Orthodox churches.

I think the priest forgot to mention one thing: the Catholic would need to get approval from the Orthodox priest before receiving Communion; whether the Orthodox priest would agree to this, is another story.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,476


« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2013, 11:38:21 AM »

I think the priest forgot to mention one thing: the Catholic would need to get approval from the Orthodox priest before receiving Communion;

Their canon law says nothing about that.
Logged
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 2,082


don't even go there!


« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2013, 02:16:50 PM »

Out of courtesy,  of nothing else, you should ask the priest first.
Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2013, 02:23:22 PM »

A Catholic priest answered a question about whether a Catholic may receive the Eucharist in an Orthodox Church:

Quote
So if you are stationed in a country where no Roman Catholic church is nearby, say within an hour’s drive, but there is a Greek Orthodox church near you, you can lawfully — according to the Catholic Code of Canon Law — attend their liturgical services and receive holy Communion, or confession, or the anointing of the sick, because all seven sacraments instituted by Christ are valid in the Orthodox churches.

I think the priest forgot to mention one thing: the Catholic would need to get approval from the Orthodox priest before receiving Communion; whether the Orthodox priest would agree to this, is another story.

That is what most folks miss.  Some Catholics who become aware of this think they can just show up in an Orthodox Church and receive.
Logged
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jerkodox
Posts: 6,950



« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2013, 02:42:17 PM »

Nevermind.

« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 02:43:45 PM by Alpo » Logged

Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,170



« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2013, 03:45:14 PM »

I think the priest forgot to mention one thing: the Catholic would need to get approval from the Orthodox priest before receiving Communion;

Their canon law says nothing about that.

True. In fact, I don't believe we have any canons that tell Orthodox priests what they should or shouldn't do.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,476


« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2013, 03:51:45 PM »

I think the priest forgot to mention one thing: the Catholic would need to get approval from the Orthodox priest before receiving Communion;

Their canon law says nothing about that.

True. In fact, I don't believe we have any canons that tell Orthodox priests what they should or shouldn't do.

You'd try...
Logged
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,234


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2013, 05:14:03 PM »

I think the priest forgot to mention one thing: the Catholic would need to get approval from the Orthodox priest before receiving Communion;

Their canon law says nothing about that.

True. In fact, I don't believe we have any canons that tell Orthodox priests what they should or shouldn't do.

You'd try...

 Huh

Who would try what?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 05:14:36 PM by J Michael » Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2013, 06:03:30 PM »

I think the priest forgot to mention one thing: the Catholic would need to get approval from the Orthodox priest before receiving Communion;

Their canon law says nothing about that.

True. In fact, I don't believe we have any canons that tell Orthodox priests what they should or shouldn't do.
True, but do the canons state that the Catholic should ask permission of the Orthodox priest?
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,476


« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2013, 06:04:11 PM »

I think the priest forgot to mention one thing: the Catholic would need to get approval from the Orthodox priest before receiving Communion;

Their canon law says nothing about that.

True. In fact, I don't believe we have any canons that tell Orthodox priests what they should or shouldn't do.
True, but do the canons state that the Catholic should ask permission of the Orthodox priest?

No.
Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,170



« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2013, 10:54:24 PM »

I think the priest forgot to mention one thing: the Catholic would need to get approval from the Orthodox priest before receiving Communion;

Their canon law says nothing about that.

True. In fact, I don't believe we have any canons that tell Orthodox priests what they should or shouldn't do.
True, but do the canons state that the Catholic should ask permission of the Orthodox priest?

Well, I think it goes without saying that it would be wrong for a Catholic to claim to be Orthodox in order to receive.

As far as the possibility of a Catholic simply presenting himself/herself to an Orthodox priest for communion, in the hope that the priest will give him/her communion without asking, I think that would be wrong too -- although I had encountered Catholics who think it isn't (!). (Actually, I recall two different conversations about that on another website.)
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,070



« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2013, 10:06:36 PM »

A properly educated catholic would know better than to commune at an Orthodox Church.   
Logged

Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2013, 10:33:11 PM »

I think the priest forgot to mention one thing: the Catholic would need to get approval from the Orthodox priest before receiving Communion;

Their canon law says nothing about that.

True. In fact, I don't believe we have any canons that tell Orthodox priests what they should or shouldn't do.

You'd try...
That's not very charitable at all. Seriously....what's the point in saying stuff like this?
Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,395


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2013, 10:35:48 PM »

A properly educated catholic would know better than to commune at an Orthodox Church.   


"Properly educated"?

By whom?

I knew several Catholics who would imitate the Orthodox in such a way that the Orthodox Priest had no clue that they were not Orthodox. They would line up for communion, blend in with the regular parishioners, imitate them to the "t", and if the Priest asked him who their bishop was, they would give the first name of their Roman prelate and be given Holy Communion without any further questions. Sometimes the priest would come over to the newcomer during coffee hour and discover the truth from them or from their friends, but oftentimes, if the newcomer did not stay for coffee hour, this behavior would continue.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,395


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2013, 10:39:05 PM »

A Catholic priest answered a question about whether a Catholic may receive the Eucharist in an Orthodox Church:

Quote
So if you are stationed in a country where no Roman Catholic church is nearby, say within an hour’s drive, but there is a Greek Orthodox church near you, you can lawfully — according to the Catholic Code of Canon Law — attend their liturgical services and receive holy Communion, or confession, or the anointing of the sick, because all seven sacraments instituted by Christ are valid in the Orthodox churches.

I think the priest forgot to mention one thing: the Catholic would need to get approval from the Orthodox priest before receiving Communion; whether the Orthodox priest would agree to this, is another story.

That is what most folks miss.  Some Catholics who become aware of this think they can just show up in an Orthodox Church and receive.

Exactly. And the monthly paper missal found in Catholic pews (that I have seen) does not mention that a Catholic should have permission from the Orthodox Priest or the Orthodox Bishop.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,877


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2013, 10:43:40 PM »

Except they are forgetting the part where most Priests and Bishops wouldn't administer the Sacraments to non-Orthodox Christians. Likewise, wouldn't most Traditionalist Thomas RC's not want to partake of our Eucharist?
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
Ruprecht
Formerly Subdeacon Bob.C
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Church of  N.A.; New England Diocese
Posts: 44



« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2013, 11:29:53 PM »

     Yes, I have seen other discussions about getting into line in an Orthodox Church for Communion, but stop and think of the word: Com-Union, or union with.  Are the churches involved united in faith, the Orthodox faith?   If your church is not in union with the one you are visiting, then your reception of Christ's Body and Blood condemns you. 
     Maybe there is no canon law specifically about cross-communion, but how about the priest's ordination?  Consider what is said and done in this quote from the goarch.org website, liturgical texts for the ordination of a priest:
After the consecration of the Eucharist, the bishop places the body of Christ into the new priest's hands with the following admonition:
Bishop: "Receive this Divine Trust, and guard it until the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, at which time He will demand It from you."


     In the Antiochian liturgical text, found in the Hapgood liturgicon, the admonition by the bishop is a bit different, and a bit more stern:
"Receive thou this pledge, and preserve it whole and unharmed until thy last breath, because thou shalt be held to an accounting therefore in the second and terrible Coming of our great Lord, God, and Saviour, Jesus Christ."

     It is the priest's most sacred and basic duty to preserve the Body and Blood of Jesus, until He returns.  Were I a priest or deacon, I would be VERY careful about communing anyone I wasn't sure of.  Yes, yes, there have been discussions for years about allowing Catholics and Orthodox into each other's Communion lines.  I have had arguments with prominent members of the Parish Council in a previous hometown, since we had Melkites and Maronites and Syriacs in town.  Talk about total confusion!
     It seems to be a falsehood to commune someone with whom we are not in total union.
     Just sayin', I could be wrong.
Logged
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Moderated
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,443


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2013, 01:40:13 AM »

Quote
Just sayin', I could be wrong.

Nope. You are completely, totally, unequivocally right. Be that everyone, priest and layman alike, understood the seriousness of guarding the chalice!
Logged
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,070



« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2013, 02:12:01 AM »

A properly educated catholic would know better than to commune at an Orthodox Church.  


"Properly educated"?

By whom?

I knew several Catholics who would imitate the Orthodox in such a way that the Orthodox Priest had no clue that they were not Orthodox. They would line up for communion, blend in with the regular parishioners, imitate them to the "t", and if the Priest asked him who their bishop was, they would give the first name of their Roman prelate and be given Holy Communion without any further questions. Sometimes the priest would come over to the newcomer during coffee hour and discover the truth from them or from their friends, but oftentimes, if the newcomer did not stay for coffee hour, this behavior would continue.

Wow, they should have spent an afternoon with my late Irish grandfather and they would never have tried that charade again.  I went to Catholic high school and grew up Irish Catholic'ed on one side of my family.  
Both would have harsh things to say to those pretenders at your parish.  What ever happen to good ol' Irish style Catholicism? did it get replaced with "I can do as I wish" Catholicism?

Interestingly this could be a new thread but there are many similarities between the Irish style Catholicism and Russian Orthodoxy.  Neither have room for "what feels good for me works".
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 02:13:48 AM by username! » Logged

Maria
Orthodox Christian
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,395


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2013, 02:35:53 AM »

A properly educated catholic would know better than to commune at an Orthodox Church.  


"Properly educated"?

By whom?

I knew several Catholics who would imitate the Orthodox in such a way that the Orthodox Priest had no clue that they were not Orthodox. They would line up for communion, blend in with the regular parishioners, imitate them to the "t", and if the Priest asked him who their bishop was, they would give the first name of their Roman prelate and be given Holy Communion without any further questions. Sometimes the priest would come over to the newcomer during coffee hour and discover the truth from them or from their friends, but oftentimes, if the newcomer did not stay for coffee hour, this behavior would continue.

Wow, they should have spent an afternoon with my late Irish grandfather and they would never have tried that charade again.  I went to Catholic high school and grew up Irish Catholic'ed on one side of my family.  
Both would have harsh things to say to those pretenders at your parish.  What ever happen to good ol' Irish style Catholicism? did it get replaced with "I can do as I wish" Catholicism?

Interestingly this could be a new thread but there are many similarities between the Irish style Catholicism and Russian Orthodoxy.  Neither have room for "what feels good for me works".

These were "cafeteria" Catholics who were involved in the Ecumenical movement and in the Charismatic movement in Los Angeles. They sincerely believed, but they were sincerely wrong, that union between Orthodox and Catholics had occurred with the lifting of the anathamas in the early 1960s by the Pope of Rome and the EP.

Some of these folks were Eastern Catholics who had been rejected by their local Catholic Church, which told them to go back to the Orthodox Church. In fact, the local OCA parish told me that quite a few Eastern Catholics joined their parish that way and were part of their founding members.

By the way, the North Hollywood Roman Catholic Church of St. Charles Borromeo was teaching their parishioners back in the mid-1990s and earlier not to attend the Melkite Greek Catholic Church down the street as those folks were not considered to be Roman Catholic but Eastern Orthodox, and worse, that they would incur excommunication if they did attend that church. The Melkite Bishop was furious when he learned of this, and wrote a letter to Cardinal Mahony. I was a Melkite at that time and our entire parish was informed about this serious error. However, the problem continued, and a year later, a cradle born Melkite Catholic was confirmed at St. Charles Borromeo before her marriage. Then our parish learned that two Melkite Greek Catholics were given First Holy Communion and Confirmed even though they had received the Sacraments of Initiation at St. Anne in North Hollywood. The reason given for their participation in Roman Catholic sacraments: their parents would be given a discount in parochial school tuition.  Cry

« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 02:41:36 AM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,070



« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2013, 02:42:37 AM »

A properly educated catholic would know better than to commune at an Orthodox Church.  


"Properly educated"?

By whom?

I knew several Catholics who would imitate the Orthodox in such a way that the Orthodox Priest had no clue that they were not Orthodox. They would line up for communion, blend in with the regular parishioners, imitate them to the "t", and if the Priest asked him who their bishop was, they would give the first name of their Roman prelate and be given Holy Communion without any further questions. Sometimes the priest would come over to the newcomer during coffee hour and discover the truth from them or from their friends, but oftentimes, if the newcomer did not stay for coffee hour, this behavior would continue.

Wow, they should have spent an afternoon with my late Irish grandfather and they would never have tried that charade again.  I went to Catholic high school and grew up Irish Catholic'ed on one side of my family.  
Both would have harsh things to say to those pretenders at your parish.  What ever happen to good ol' Irish style Catholicism? did it get replaced with "I can do as I wish" Catholicism?

Interestingly this could be a new thread but there are many similarities between the Irish style Catholicism and Russian Orthodoxy.  Neither have room for "what feels good for me works".

These were "cafeteria" Catholics who were involved in the Ecumenical movement and in the Charismatic movement in Los Angeles. They sincerely believed, but they were sincerely wrong, that union between Orthodox and Catholics had occurred with the lifting of the anathamas in the early 1960s by the Pope of Rome and the EP.

Some of these folks were Eastern Catholics who had been rejected by their local Catholic Church, which told them to go back to the Orthodox Church.

In fact, the North Hollywood Roman Catholic Church of St. Charles Borromeo was teaching their parishioners back in the mid-1990s and earlier not to attend the Melkite Greek Catholic Church down the street as those folks were not considered to be Roman Catholic but Eastern Orthodox, and worse, that they would incur excommunication if they did attend that church. The Melkite Bishop was furious when he learned of this, and wrote a letter to Cardinal Mahony. I was a Melkite at that time and our entire parish was informed about this serious error. However, the problem continued, and a year later, a cradle born Melkite Catholic was chrismated at St. Charles Borromeo before her marriage. Then our parish learned that two Melkite Greek Catholics were given First Holy Communion and Confirmed even though they had received the Sacraments of Initiation at St. Anne in North Hollywood. The reason given for their participation in Roman Catholic sacraments: their parents would be given a discount in parochial school tuition.  Cry



Here we have Greek Catholic parishes across the street from the Roman Catholic churches in a few places.  The Roman priests send an invitation from the GC priest to come attend lenten services.  No one shows.
Most Roman Catholics don't know anything about the Greek Catholic church.  At my great aunt's funeral at the Greek Catholic church most of the people there were her Orthodox family and those that went Roman.  Only the Greek Catholics from the parish got communion even though the priest told them that Roman Catholics could commune before he gave out communion.

Cafeteria Catholics? The only ones I have seen were at Greek Catholic parishes attempting to latinize it with their wants.
I haven't really experienced what you describe.  There was some crazy stuff with the last Latin Rite bishop but the new guy leveled it out.  Still have girl altarboys but other than that it's pretty tame.  But nothing like I see people talk about on the internet.
Sounds like the bull against the Melkite parish is just a modern day version of what all the Slavic Greek Catholic churches here experienced 60-100 years ago.  History repeats itself usually with different names and titles but the players and plot never really change.
Logged

J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,234


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2013, 11:49:49 AM »

A properly educated catholic would know better than to commune at an Orthodox Church.   


"Properly educated"?

By whom?

I knew several Catholics who would imitate the Orthodox in such a way that the Orthodox Priest had no clue that they were not Orthodox. They would line up for communion, blend in with the regular parishioners, imitate them to the "t", and if the Priest asked him who their bishop was, they would give the first name of their Roman prelate and be given Holy Communion without any further questions. Sometimes the priest would come over to the newcomer during coffee hour and discover the truth from them or from their friends, but oftentimes, if the newcomer did not stay for coffee hour, this behavior would continue.

They're probably spies sent by the Vatican to infiltrate and subvert Orthodoxy  Grin Grin.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 2,082


don't even go there!


« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2013, 12:01:01 PM »

Nothing Cardinal Mahony or his minions did/do surprise me anymore.
Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2013, 12:26:59 PM »

     Yes, I have seen other discussions about getting into line in an Orthodox Church for Communion, but stop and think of the word: Com-Union, or union with.  Are the churches involved united in faith, the Orthodox faith?   If your church is not in union with the one you are visiting, then your reception of Christ's Body and Blood condemns you. 
But if Canon Law in the Roman Catholic Church allows for a Roman Catholic to commune in an Eastern Orthodox parish, then where's the problem (from the Catholic perspective)?
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2013, 12:37:20 PM »

     Yes, I have seen other discussions about getting into line in an Orthodox Church for Communion, but stop and think of the word: Com-Union, or union with.  Are the churches involved united in faith, the Orthodox faith?   If your church is not in union with the one you are visiting, then your reception of Christ's Body and Blood condemns you. 
But if Canon Law in the Roman Catholic Church allows for a Roman Catholic to commune in an Eastern Orthodox parish, then where's the problem (from the Catholic perspective)?

That the Catholic perspective is not the only one that should be respected, and hence, as a guest, the visiting member from the Roman Catholic communion is bound to respect the prerogatives of the Orthodox Church and not receive there.

We have regular Catholic visitors to our liturgy, and this is never an issue with them. It seems that some people just want to do whatever they want, simply because their church says they can. If you're not in the Orthodox Church, it doesn't matter what your church says about visiting one. You come to our church, you follow our rules, most definitely including those rules about who can receive and who cannot.

Logged

Maria
Orthodox Christian
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,395


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2013, 03:29:54 PM »

     Yes, I have seen other discussions about getting into line in an Orthodox Church for Communion, but stop and think of the word: Com-Union, or union with.  Are the churches involved united in faith, the Orthodox faith?   If your church is not in union with the one you are visiting, then your reception of Christ's Body and Blood condemns you. 
But if Canon Law in the Roman Catholic Church allows for a Roman Catholic to commune in an Eastern Orthodox parish, then where's the problem (from the Catholic perspective)?

That the Catholic perspective is not the only one that should be respected, and hence, as a guest, the visiting member from the Roman Catholic communion is bound to respect the prerogatives of the Orthodox Church and not receive there.

We have regular Catholic visitors to our liturgy, and this is never an issue with them. It seems that some people just want to do whatever they want, simply because their church says they can. If you're not in the Orthodox Church, it doesn't matter what your church says about visiting one. You come to our church, you follow our rules, most definitely including those rules about who can receive and who cannot.



+1
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2013, 03:50:48 PM »

     Yes, I have seen other discussions about getting into line in an Orthodox Church for Communion, but stop and think of the word: Com-Union, or union with.  Are the churches involved united in faith, the Orthodox faith?   If your church is not in union with the one you are visiting, then your reception of Christ's Body and Blood condemns you. 
But if Canon Law in the Roman Catholic Church allows for a Roman Catholic to commune in an Eastern Orthodox parish, then where's the problem (from the Catholic perspective)?

That the Catholic perspective is not the only one that should be respected, and hence, as a guest, the visiting member from the Roman Catholic communion is bound to respect the prerogatives of the Orthodox Church and not receive there.

We have regular Catholic visitors to our liturgy, and this is never an issue with them. It seems that some people just want to do whatever they want, simply because their church says they can. If you're not in the Orthodox Church, it doesn't matter what your church says about visiting one. You come to our church, you follow our rules, most definitely including those rules about who can receive and who cannot.



Catholic Canon Law only deals with Roman Catholics.  So if they say RCs may receive from the Orthodox, that is just what it is saying.  Basically it makes clear that RCs are not excommunicated for participating in Orthodox Communion, as opposed to participating in an Anglican or Lutheran one.  Now it wouldn't make a pronouncement binding Orthodox clergy to give the Eucharist to Catholics.  Thats just silly and the Vatican isn't that stupid.  They're just saying that there is nothing wrong for Catholics to receive from the Orthodox.  Definitely the issue of whether the Orthodox would commune Catholics is up to the Orthodox and the Vatican knows that it is beyond their control.  But it does happen.  So for them just reassure their faithful that if that opportunity does arise, then there is nothing wrong with it.
Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,395


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2013, 04:06:02 PM »

     Yes, I have seen other discussions about getting into line in an Orthodox Church for Communion, but stop and think of the word: Com-Union, or union with.  Are the churches involved united in faith, the Orthodox faith?   If your church is not in union with the one you are visiting, then your reception of Christ's Body and Blood condemns you. 
But if Canon Law in the Roman Catholic Church allows for a Roman Catholic to commune in an Eastern Orthodox parish, then where's the problem (from the Catholic perspective)?

That the Catholic perspective is not the only one that should be respected, and hence, as a guest, the visiting member from the Roman Catholic communion is bound to respect the prerogatives of the Orthodox Church and not receive there.

We have regular Catholic visitors to our liturgy, and this is never an issue with them. It seems that some people just want to do whatever they want, simply because their church says they can. If you're not in the Orthodox Church, it doesn't matter what your church says about visiting one. You come to our church, you follow our rules, most definitely including those rules about who can receive and who cannot.



Catholic Canon Law only deals with Roman Catholics.  So if they say RCs may receive from the Orthodox, that is just what it is saying.  Basically it makes clear that RCs are not excommunicated for participating in Orthodox Communion, as opposed to participating in an Anglican or Lutheran one.  Now it wouldn't make a pronouncement binding Orthodox clergy to give the Eucharist to Catholics.  Thats just silly and the Vatican isn't that stupid.  They're just saying that there is nothing wrong for Catholics to receive from the Orthodox.  Definitely the issue of whether the Orthodox would commune Catholics is up to the Orthodox and the Vatican knows that it is beyond their control.  But it does happen.  So for them just reassure their faithful that if that opportunity does arise, then there is nothing wrong with it.

And that is the problem. That is why Orthodox Priests must guard the chalice with diligence.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2013, 04:19:14 PM »

     Yes, I have seen other discussions about getting into line in an Orthodox Church for Communion, but stop and think of the word: Com-Union, or union with.  Are the churches involved united in faith, the Orthodox faith?   If your church is not in union with the one you are visiting, then your reception of Christ's Body and Blood condemns you. 
But if Canon Law in the Roman Catholic Church allows for a Roman Catholic to commune in an Eastern Orthodox parish, then where's the problem (from the Catholic perspective)?

That the Catholic perspective is not the only one that should be respected, and hence, as a guest, the visiting member from the Roman Catholic communion is bound to respect the prerogatives of the Orthodox Church and not receive there.

We have regular Catholic visitors to our liturgy, and this is never an issue with them. It seems that some people just want to do whatever they want, simply because their church says they can. If you're not in the Orthodox Church, it doesn't matter what your church says about visiting one. You come to our church, you follow our rules, most definitely including those rules about who can receive and who cannot.



Catholic Canon Law only deals with Roman Catholics.  So if they say RCs may receive from the Orthodox, that is just what it is saying.  Basically it makes clear that RCs are not excommunicated for participating in Orthodox Communion, as opposed to participating in an Anglican or Lutheran one.  Now it wouldn't make a pronouncement binding Orthodox clergy to give the Eucharist to Catholics.  Thats just silly and the Vatican isn't that stupid.  They're just saying that there is nothing wrong for Catholics to receive from the Orthodox.  Definitely the issue of whether the Orthodox would commune Catholics is up to the Orthodox and the Vatican knows that it is beyond their control.  But it does happen.  So for them just reassure their faithful that if that opportunity does arise, then there is nothing wrong with it.

And that is the problem. That is why Orthodox Priests must guard the chalice with diligence.

Fact is, there are Orthodox priests/bishops/parishes out there that commune Catholics.
Logged
Orest
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 999


« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2013, 04:30:34 PM »


Quote
Fact is, there are Orthodox priests/bishops/parishes out there that commune Catholics.

Why don't you name them so we can verify if it is a Fact as you say.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 04:31:57 PM by Orest » Logged
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2013, 04:34:20 PM »

Why don't you name them so we can verify if it is a Fact as you say.

If you do not want to believe me, that is okay.  But I won't name them because already by this tone I know this will create a controversy and people will make it a big deal even though it has been happening for quite some time and because most people are oblivious to the fact, life happily goes on.  But it does happen and I have talked to people who have attested to this.
Logged
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2013, 04:52:08 PM »

In my view, Choy, the key is as you say: that the RCC would not dream of making rules which try to tell the Orthodox what they should do with RC visitors. Therefore, as we can assume that the RCC would not tell its communicants to disrespect the Orthodox by assuming that just because the RCC view says it would be okay to receive, then they can receive, then we must see that the RC visitor comply with the Orthodox rule and not even try it (and that they be refused, should they think somehow that they can receive). It really does not matter at all what the RCC says is okay for its communicants to do in an Orthodox church. It matters what the Orthodox say is okay to do, and the Orthodox say that only Orthodox may receive.

To the extent that anything else happens, that is between the priest, his bishop, and God, but I will tell you this: Knowing that any uncanonical/out the ordinary arrangement depends on local circumstances, and with the full knowledge of both bishops (e.g., Copts here in Albuquerque used to receive at the Greek Orthodox church before we had our own; now that we do, that arrangement is void), there is virtually no circumstance on earth in which a Roman Catholic should even consider receiving from an Orthodox priest, and no circumstance in which an Orthodox priest should grant that. Yes, yes...a traveling Roman Catholic stranded in the most remote Siberia, fine...but even then, that is entirely at the priest's discretion, and the more Catholics hear "but I know that some Orthodox allow Catholics to receive", the more they're likely to get the impression that it is just a matter of showing to the right priest or at the right time or whatever. It isn't, so please don't post your anecdotes that make it seem like it is. Heretics ought not treat the Orthodox Church as a some sort of Sacramental lottery.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 04:55:51 PM by dzheremi » Logged

choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2013, 04:57:14 PM »

In my view, Choy, the key is as you say: that the RCC would not dream of making rules which try to tell the Orthodox what they should do with RC visitors. Therefore, as we can assume that the RCC would not tell its communicants to disrespect the Orthodox by assuming that just because the RCC view says it would be okay to receive, then they can receive, then we must see that the RC visitor comply with the Orthodox rule and not even try it (and that they be refused, should they think somehow that they can receive). It really does not matter at all what the RCC says is okay for its communicants to do in an Orthodox church. It matters what the Orthodox say is okay to do, and the Orthodox say that only Orthodox may receive.

To the extent that anything else happens, that is between the priest, his bishop, and God, but I will tell you this: Knowing that any uncanonical/out the ordinary arrangement depends on local circumstances, and with the full knowledge of both bishops (e.g., Copts here in Albuquerque used to receive at the Greek Orthodox church before we had our own; now that we do, that arrangement is void), there is virtually no circumstance on earth in which a Roman Catholic should even consider receiving from an Orthodox priest, and no circumstance in which an Orthodox priest should grant that. Yes, yes...a traveling Roman Catholic stranded in the most remote Siberia, fine...but even then, that is entirely at the priest's discretion, and the more Catholics hear "but I know that some Orthodox allow Catholics to receive", the more they're likely to get the impression that it is just a matter of showing to the right priest or at the right time or whatever. It isn't, so please don't post your anecdotes that make it seem like it is. Heretics ought not treat the Orthodox Church as a some sort of Sacramental lottery.

I'm not trying to make it seem it happens all the time.  I'm just saying, it does happen and we shouldn't pretend that it never happens.
Logged
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,877


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2013, 05:15:22 PM »

Ironically, even with their blatant rejection and disregard for anything Sacramental, I've never seen a single Protestant visitor at my Church attempt to receive the Eucharist, whereas Roman Catholics have tried and were told they could not.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,994


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #34 on: January 30, 2013, 05:31:46 PM »

I think the priest forgot to mention one thing: the Catholic would need to get approval from the Orthodox priest before receiving Communion;

Their canon law says nothing about that.

It does:

Canon 844 (c.671 in the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches)

1. Catholic ministers may licitly administer the sacraments to Catholic members of the Christian faithful only and, likewise, the latter may licitly receive the sacraments only from Catholic ministers with due regard for parts 2, 3, and 4 of this canon, and can. 861, part 2.

2. Whenever necessity requires or genuine spiritual advantage suggests, and provided that the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, it is lawful for the faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose churches these sacraments are valid.

3. Catholic ministers may licitly administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist and anointing of the sick to members of the oriental churches which do not have full communion with the Catholic Church, if they ask on their own for the sacraments and are properly disposed. This holds also for members of other churches, which in the judgment of the Apostolic See are in the same condition as the oriental churches as far as these sacraments are concerned.

4. If the danger of death is present or other grave necessity, in the judgment of the diocesan bishop or the conference of bishops, Catholic ministers may licitly administer these sacraments to other Christians who do not have full communion with the Catholic Church, who cannot approach a minister of their own community and on their own ask for it, provided they manifest Catholic faith in these sacraments and are properly disposed.

5. For the cases in parts 2, 3, and 4, neither the diocesan bishop nor the conference of bishops is to enact general norms except after consultation with at least the local competent authority of the interested non- Catholic Church or community.

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/intercommunion.htm
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 05:45:33 PM by Deacon Lance » Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,994


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2013, 05:41:51 PM »

Exactly. And the monthly paper missal found in Catholic pews (that I have seen) does not mention that a Catholic should have permission from the Orthodox Priest or the Orthodox Bishop.

The missalette doesn't address Catholics receiving from Orthodox at all, only Orthodox receiving from Catholics.

For our fellow Christians
We welcome our fellow Christians to this celebration of the Eucharist as our brothers and sisters. We pray that our common baptism and the action of the Holy Spirit in this Eucharist will draw us closer to one another and begin to dispel the sad divisions which separate us. We pray that these will lessen and finally disappear, in keeping with Christ's prayer for us "that they may all be one" (Jn 17:21).

Because Catholics believe that the celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of the reality of the oneness of faith, life, and worship, members of those churches with whom we are not yet fully united are ordinarily not admitted to Holy Communion. Eucharistic sharing in exceptional circumstances by other Christians requires permission according to the directives of the diocesan bishop and the provisions of canon law (canon 844 § 4). Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches. According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Canon Law does not object to the reception of communion by Christians of these Churches (canon 844 § 3).

http://old.usccb.org/liturgy/q&a/mass/communion.shtml

« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 05:46:10 PM by Deacon Lance » Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
brastaseptim
Protopsáltis
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 951


From BBC Louisiana to you, here's the morning news


« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2013, 05:48:05 PM »

I'm always careful around Orthodox churches, being Greek Catholic. I don't even touch the Antidoron, much less the chalice- I didn't know you could, under certain permission.
Logged

BBC news certified; The Guardian rejected; OC.net approved.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 30,202


that is not the teaching of...


« Reply #37 on: January 30, 2013, 05:52:52 PM »

Catholics cannot receive communion, under any circumstances, but are free to have some antidoran in many western parishes (though not all).
Logged
Dominika
Serbian/Polish
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of Poland
Posts: 1,055


St. Luke, pray for us!


WWW
« Reply #38 on: January 30, 2013, 05:53:38 PM »

A Catholic priest answered a question about whether a Catholic may receive the Eucharist in an Orthodox Church:

Quote
So if you are stationed in a country where no Roman Catholic church is nearby, say within an hour’s drive, but there is a Greek Orthodox church near you, you can lawfully — according to the Catholic Code of Canon Law — attend their liturgical services and receive holy Communion, or confession, or the anointing of the sick, because all seven sacraments instituted by Christ are valid in the Orthodox churches.



It's very common answer given by Roman Catholic priests. It's interesting to me that they claim we're schismatics or heretics whose Church are not on the rock - st. Peter, but on the other hand, they claim it's better to commune in the Orthodox Church than to not receive at all (in the case of lack of Catholic church in the nearest area or life-threatening situation). But such advices come from different understing of the Church as the Body of Christ andthe Holy Eucharist. They focus more on the validity (I've read opinions of Roman Catholics who claim our Eucharist is of course valid, but celebrated unworthily, so we commit sin by communing in the Orthodox Church - and they not  Roll Eyes), than unity with Church as the Body of Christ.

However, I know a Polish Roman Catholic couple who has received the Communion in the Orthodox Church in Russia. They were asked about the faith, and the priest has communed them (for him was more interestinf faith if they're Greek Catholics - in this case he wouldn't have communed them - or Roman Catholics)  Shocked
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 05:54:05 PM by Dominika » Logged

Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 2,082


don't even go there!


« Reply #39 on: January 30, 2013, 05:57:49 PM »

Catholics cannot receive communion, under any circumstances, but are free to have some antidoran in many western parishes (though not all).

I attended the DL at an Antiochian Orthodox parish and several nice people brought me some antidoran - guess they saw me sitting out Communion, felt sorry for me and wanted to make sure I got something!  Grin
Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #40 on: January 30, 2013, 06:15:13 PM »

But such advices come from different understing of the Church as the Body of Christ andthe Holy Eucharist. They focus more on the validity (I've read opinions of Roman Catholics who claim our Eucharist is of course valid, but celebrated unworthily, so we commit sin by communing in the Orthodox Church - and they not  Roll Eyes), than unity with Church as the Body of Christ.

Bingo. So they want to know that it would be okay from their side/they wouldn't be in trouble with their church, not whether or not it respects Orthodox teaching on the subject.

I am glad that the Catholics who come to our liturgies know better than to look at things in this manner. I would be very happy to find a Catholic priest who would advise his people similarly. (They must be out there, but they're apparently not the ones giving advice at most Catholic websites, where it seems like the Orthodox view, if it is mentioned at all, is something of an afterthought.)
Logged

choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #41 on: January 30, 2013, 06:30:23 PM »

Ironically, even with their blatant rejection and disregard for anything Sacramental, I've never seen a single Protestant visitor at my Church attempt to receive the Eucharist, whereas Roman Catholics have tried and were told they could not.

Why do you think that is?  I know the Roman Catholic Church has this problem (of Protestants approaching).  I have a friend on FB who posted pictures of her son receiving First Communion as he goes to a Catholic school.  But she (and I assume the rest of her family) is openly Evangelical.
Logged
brastaseptim
Protopsáltis
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 951


From BBC Louisiana to you, here's the morning news


« Reply #42 on: January 30, 2013, 06:32:03 PM »

 Roman Catholics make it VERY clear that Protestants cannot partake of Communion, so I'm sure Protestants wouldn't even think of it in a Church that seems even stranger than the Catholics.  Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 06:32:25 PM by brastaseptim » Logged

BBC news certified; The Guardian rejected; OC.net approved.
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #43 on: January 30, 2013, 06:33:33 PM »

Catholics cannot receive communion, under any circumstances, but are free to have some antidoran in many western parishes (though not all).

I attended the DL at an Antiochian Orthodox parish and several nice people brought me some antidoran - guess they saw me sitting out Communion, felt sorry for me and wanted to make sure I got something!  Grin

It is quite a great gesture to make guests feel welcome.  Although our priest has asked the parishioners to refrain from this because there have been cases that the people have been so warm and welcoming to a few guests, they end up with a bunch of antidoron in their hands, more than they can eat at the time.

There is a line at the end of the Divine Liturgy where people get to venerate the blessing cross of the priest and then they get to take what's still left of the antidoron.  Non-Orthodox and Catechumens are welcome to participate.  Our parish lets non-Orthodox participate in everything except the Sacraments.
Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #44 on: January 30, 2013, 06:36:56 PM »

Why don't you name them so we can verify if it is a Fact as you say.

If you do not want to believe me, that is okay.  But I won't name them because already by this tone I know this will create a controversy and people will make it a big deal even though it has been happening for quite some time and because most people are oblivious to the fact, life happily goes on.  But it does happen and I have talked to people who have attested to this.

Life happily went on in Constantinople when almost the whole city became Arian. Your point?
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #45 on: January 30, 2013, 06:38:01 PM »

Ironically, even with their blatant rejection and disregard for anything Sacramental, I've never seen a single Protestant visitor at my Church attempt to receive the Eucharist, whereas Roman Catholics have tried and were told they could not.

An Protestant acquaintance of mine did so once. He spent the rest of the day in agony on the toilet.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,395


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #46 on: January 30, 2013, 06:53:21 PM »

Roman Catholics make it VERY clear that Protestants cannot partake of Communion, so I'm sure Protestants wouldn't even think of it in a Church that seems even stranger than the Catholics.  Roll Eyes

Oh, in my previous OCA parish, the priest had the unfortunate task of turning away several irate Protestants who accused him at the altar of being uncharitable because they were Anglicans or Lutherans who believed in the Real Presence.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,395


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #47 on: January 30, 2013, 06:58:22 PM »

My godmother told me about a Catholic who tried to receive Holy Communion from the hands of an Orthodox Priest. He thought that she was Orthodox in the manner in which she approached the chalice with reverence. However, as he started to give her the Eucharist, she backed away with her eyes wide open in fear. Then he asked her if she were Orthodox, and she replied, "No." He told her to stay in the church and see him after the Divine Liturgy and then explained why she should not be receiving. She explained that a tongue of fire came out of the chalice and startled her. She became a catechumen and was received by Chrismation six months later.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 2,082


don't even go there!


« Reply #48 on: January 30, 2013, 07:03:32 PM »

There's actually been a thread about this in the not-too-distant past, right here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=36351.0

 Cool

Also, check this: http://www.orthodoxanswers.org/answer/29/

"In the nineteenth-century Russia, for example, Orthodox priests were allowed to give Communion to Roman Catholics in emergency situations if there was no Roman Catholic priest available.  In the 1970s, Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Nikodim of Leningrad temporarily allowed intercommunion with the Roman Catholic Church within the borders of his diocese.  The rare and very controversial practice, however, did not become widespread and was eventually terminated."

So obviously yes, it has happened, in the past, with the approval of the Orthodox hierarchy.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 07:03:50 PM by theistgal » Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #49 on: January 30, 2013, 07:05:07 PM »

My godmother told me about a Catholic who tried to receive Holy Communion from the hands of an Orthodox Priest. He thought that she was Orthodox in the manner in which she approached the chalice with reverence. However, as he started to give her the Eucharist, she backed away with her eyes wide open in fear. Then he asked her if she were Orthodox, and she replied, "No." He told her to stay in the church and see him after the Divine Liturgy and then explained why she should not be receiving. She explained that a tongue of fire came out of the chalice and startled her. She became a catechumen and was received by Chrismation six months later.

Wow.  If that happened to me I'd probably be on the floor, either crying or completely passed out.
Logged
WPM
Revolutionary Writer
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,621



« Reply #50 on: January 30, 2013, 07:05:32 PM »

The Old Testament food given by an Angel?..
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 07:06:51 PM by WPM » Logged
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,877


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #51 on: January 30, 2013, 09:01:20 PM »

My godmother told me about a Catholic who tried to receive Holy Communion from the hands of an Orthodox Priest. He thought that she was Orthodox in the manner in which she approached the chalice with reverence. However, as he started to give her the Eucharist, she backed away with her eyes wide open in fear. Then he asked her if she were Orthodox, and she replied, "No." He told her to stay in the church and see him after the Divine Liturgy and then explained why she should not be receiving. She explained that a tongue of fire came out of the chalice and startled her. She became a catechumen and was received by Chrismation six months later.

Wow.  If that happened to me I'd probably be on the floor, either crying or completely passed out.

God would probably have to do a lot more than spit flames at me; I'm a Mexican, we're used to spicy food.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,395


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #52 on: January 30, 2013, 09:03:38 PM »

My godmother told me about a Catholic who tried to receive Holy Communion from the hands of an Orthodox Priest. He thought that she was Orthodox in the manner in which she approached the chalice with reverence. However, as he started to give her the Eucharist, she backed away with her eyes wide open in fear. Then he asked her if she were Orthodox, and she replied, "No." He told her to stay in the church and see him after the Divine Liturgy and then explained why she should not be receiving. She explained that a tongue of fire came out of the chalice and startled her. She became a catechumen and was received by Chrismation six months later.

Wow.  If that happened to me I'd probably be on the floor, either crying or completely passed out.

God would probably have to do a lot more than spit flames at me; I'm a Mexican, we're used to spicy food.

Do not test God.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #53 on: January 30, 2013, 09:10:53 PM »

Catholics cannot receive communion, under any circumstances, but are free to have some antidoran in many western parishes (though not all).
I think some OCA parishes (if not many) allow any Christian to have antidoran.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,877


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #54 on: January 30, 2013, 09:11:38 PM »

My godmother told me about a Catholic who tried to receive Holy Communion from the hands of an Orthodox Priest. He thought that she was Orthodox in the manner in which she approached the chalice with reverence. However, as he started to give her the Eucharist, she backed away with her eyes wide open in fear. Then he asked her if she were Orthodox, and she replied, "No." He told her to stay in the church and see him after the Divine Liturgy and then explained why she should not be receiving. She explained that a tongue of fire came out of the chalice and startled her. She became a catechumen and was received by Chrismation six months later.

Wow.  If that happened to me I'd probably be on the floor, either crying or completely passed out.

God would probably have to do a lot more than spit flames at me; I'm a Mexican, we're used to spicy food.

Do not test God.

I'm just kidding. Anyhow, I find your story very frightening, yet inspiring at the same time. I'm even afraid to approach the chalice now.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #55 on: January 30, 2013, 09:38:28 PM »

Catholics cannot receive communion, under any circumstances, but are free to have some antidoran in many western parishes (though not all).
I think some OCA parishes (if not many) allow any Christian to have antidoran.

Ours do.  Is it the ROC that doesn't give antidoron to non-Orthodox?  I forgot.
Logged
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Moderated
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,443


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #56 on: January 30, 2013, 10:24:51 PM »

Catholics cannot receive communion, under any circumstances, but are free to have some antidoran in many western parishes (though not all).
I think some OCA parishes (if not many) allow any Christian to have antidoran.

Ours do.  Is it the ROC that doesn't give antidoron to non-Orthodox?  I forgot.

The Russian church in my neck of the woods does, as do the Greeks.
Logged
Nephi
Monster Tamer
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Online Online

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Byzantine
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,688



« Reply #57 on: January 30, 2013, 10:28:27 PM »

I think some OCA parishes (if not many) allow any Christian to have antidoran.
Before seeing this and looking it up, I didn't even realize that anyone kept the antidoron from non-Orthodox.
Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,170



« Reply #58 on: January 30, 2013, 10:40:00 PM »

Ironically, even with their blatant rejection and disregard for anything Sacramental, I've never seen a single Protestant visitor at my Church attempt to receive the Eucharist, whereas Roman Catholics have tried and were told they could not.

Not to mention the fact that the Catholic Church has a rule that we could only receive from an Orthodox priest (even assuming finding a complicit one) if none of our own priests are available; whereas very few protestant denominations have such a rule.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,170



« Reply #59 on: January 30, 2013, 10:41:36 PM »

A properly educated catholic would know better than to commune at an Orthodox Church.  


"Properly educated"?

By whom?

I knew several Catholics who would imitate the Orthodox in such a way that the Orthodox Priest had no clue that they were not Orthodox. They would line up for communion, blend in with the regular parishioners, imitate them to the "t", and if the Priest asked him who their bishop was, they would give the first name of their Roman prelate and be given Holy Communion without any further questions. Sometimes the priest would come over to the newcomer during coffee hour and discover the truth from them or from their friends, but oftentimes, if the newcomer did not stay for coffee hour, this behavior would continue.

Wow, they should have spent an afternoon with my late Irish grandfather and they would never have tried that charade again.  I went to Catholic high school and grew up Irish Catholic'ed on one side of my family.  
Both would have harsh things to say to those pretenders at your parish.  What ever happen to good ol' Irish style Catholicism? did it get replaced with "I can do as I wish" Catholicism?

I think I have to agree with you here.

Of course, in the Catholic Church it's even easier: Catholic priests don't ask communicants if they're Catholic, who their bishop is, etc.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,170



« Reply #60 on: January 30, 2013, 10:44:58 PM »

Some of these folks were Eastern Catholics who had been rejected by their local Catholic Church, which told them to go back to the Orthodox Church.

Hold on a sec ... are you saying they converted from Orthodoxy to Catholicism, then converted back to Orthodoxy?
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Fr.Aidan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Russian Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
Posts: 503


Ds. superbis resistit; humilibus autem dat gratiam


WWW
« Reply #61 on: January 30, 2013, 11:19:19 PM »

Zapivka (antidoron) is given to non-Orthodox in my ROCOR parish.

I attest that I have known of situations where Roman Catholics have received Communion at an Orthodox church repeatedly, with the priest's full knowledge that they were not Orthodox and had no intention of becoming Orthodox. I saw it with my own eyes.

Don't get me started on giving Communion to men wearing wedding rings in situations when the wearer of the other ring is also a man.

I won't mention identifying information in public, so don't ask on here.
Logged
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #62 on: January 30, 2013, 11:24:36 PM »

Orban (= antidoron) is given to non-Orthodox visitors in my Coptic parish. I was not aware that there are jurisdictions where this is not the case.
Logged

Maria
Orthodox Christian
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,395


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #63 on: January 30, 2013, 11:48:41 PM »

Some of these folks were Eastern Catholics who had been rejected by their local Catholic Church, which told them to go back to the Orthodox Church.

Hold on a sec ... are you saying they converted from Orthodoxy to Catholicism, then converted back to Orthodoxy?

All Eastern Catholic Churches (with the possible exception of the Maronites) were originally Orthodox Christians who went into schism and joined the Vatican. When Roman Catholics told these Eastern Catholics to return to the Orthodox, they were telling them to return to their ancient roots.

My ancestors were Maronites/Melkites. We were raised Roman Catholics, but later my dad told us that we really should be Eastern Catholics. When we finally returned to our roots and embraced Orthodoxy, he was delighted.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Fr.Aidan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Russian Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
Posts: 503


Ds. superbis resistit; humilibus autem dat gratiam


WWW
« Reply #64 on: January 31, 2013, 12:23:15 AM »

Well, Maria, that ended well.

By the way, I wasn't trying to shock anyone for the sake of shocking, but each Orthodox Christian is also a guardian of the purity of the faith, and in these times struggle is necessary to maintain the faith. Mainly by struggling against our own lower will and going from strength to strength, that is, virtue to virtue. "They shall mount up like eagles; they shall go from strength to strength." "They shall go from strength to strength; the God of gods shall be seen in Sion."
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 12:24:45 AM by Fr.Aidan » Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,170



« Reply #65 on: January 31, 2013, 07:35:56 AM »

Some of these folks were Eastern Catholics who had been rejected by their local Catholic Church, which told them to go back to the Orthodox Church.

Hold on a sec ... are you saying they converted from Orthodoxy to Catholicism, then converted back to Orthodoxy?

All Eastern Catholic Churches (with the possible exception of the Maronites) were originally Orthodox Christians who went into schism and joined the Vatican. When Roman Catholics told these Eastern Catholics to return to the Orthodox, they were telling them to return to their ancient roots.

Thanks for the clarification. I still think it's quite shocking: their local Catholic Church told them to leave Catholicism for Orthodoxy?  Shocked But perhaps you guys feel differently about it than I do.

As far your idea that Greek Catholics converting to Orthodoxy should be called "go[ing] back to the Orthodox Church", I won't express disagreement. (You may recall the fireworks that erupted the last time I dared to do so.)
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,170



« Reply #66 on: January 31, 2013, 07:56:51 AM »

Catholics cannot receive communion, under any circumstances, but are free to have some antidoran in many western parishes (though not all).

I attended the DL at an Antiochian Orthodox parish and several nice people brought me some antidoran - guess they saw me sitting out Communion, felt sorry for me and wanted to make sure I got something!  Grin

It is quite a great gesture to make guests feel welcome.  Although our priest has asked the parishioners to refrain from this because there have been cases that the people have been so warm and welcoming to a few guests, they end up with a bunch of antidoron in their hands, more than they can eat at the time.

 Grin
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,626



« Reply #67 on: January 31, 2013, 10:47:47 AM »

My godmother told me about a Catholic who tried to receive Holy Communion from the hands of an Orthodox Priest. He thought that she was Orthodox in the manner in which she approached the chalice with reverence. However, as he started to give her the Eucharist, she backed away with her eyes wide open in fear. Then he asked her if she were Orthodox, and she replied, "No." He told her to stay in the church and see him after the Divine Liturgy and then explained why she should not be receiving. She explained that a tongue of fire came out of the chalice and startled her. She became a catechumen and was received by Chrismation six months later.

Wow.  If that happened to me I'd probably be on the floor, either crying or completely passed out.

God would probably have to do a lot more than spit flames at me; I'm a Mexican, we're used to spicy food.

God is Mexican. That's why we're permitted to eat shrimp and avocados during lent.
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #68 on: February 01, 2013, 01:12:25 PM »

God is Mexican. That's why we're permitted to eat shrimp and avocados during lent.

Possible sigline material.  Love it!
Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,170



« Reply #69 on: February 01, 2013, 06:23:50 PM »

Thanks for the clarification. I still think it's quite shocking: their local Catholic Church told them to leave Catholicism for Orthodoxy?  Shocked But perhaps you guys feel differently about it than I do.

P.S. Apologies to those readers who have seen this quote before, but I can't help thinking of it whenever Catholics tell (Eastern) Catholics to leave Catholicism for Orthodoxy:

Quote from: Fr. J. Steele
The OICWR crowd is a tiny but vocal minority resident mostly online at ByzCath. They are not representative of the countless good Eastern Catholics one finds in church on Sunday.

I would beg to differ that these malcontents do not display a toxic anti-Westernism. That is pretty much all they are about, save a tenuous and virtually meaningless communion with Rome.

Most dox. And they should, in the interest of honesty.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #70 on: February 01, 2013, 06:43:09 PM »

Thanks for the clarification. I still think it's quite shocking: their local Catholic Church told them to leave Catholicism for Orthodoxy?  Shocked But perhaps you guys feel differently about it than I do.

P.S. Apologies to those readers who have seen this quote before, but I can't help thinking of it whenever Catholics tell (Eastern) Catholics to leave Catholicism for Orthodoxy:

Quote from: Fr. J. Steele
The OICWR crowd is a tiny but vocal minority resident mostly online at ByzCath. They are not representative of the countless good Eastern Catholics one finds in church on Sunday.

I would beg to differ that these malcontents do not display a toxic anti-Westernism. That is pretty much all they are about, save a tenuous and virtually meaningless communion with Rome.

Most dox. And they should, in the interest of honesty.

I agree there.  Those OICWR types (which I myself was) are really searching for Orthodoxy without the complication of leaving communion with the Pope.  Most are cradle Catholics, a number of them RCs, who have discovered Orthodoxy but wouldn't want to just give up the Pope.  It is hard after being taught throughout your life that you have to be in communion with the Pope.  Eastern Catholicism is the easy solution, but usually it is a bit lacking as a solution because many EC parishes aren't "Orthodox" enough.  Some do faithfully follow Orthodox tradition, but a bigger number don't.  I think "Orthodox" EC parishes are about as common as Tridentine Mass parishes in the Latin Rite.  So eventually there is that disappointment and sometimes dissention for not getting what we were looking for.  So a good number like myself end up Orthodox.  I don't know about those others, but so far I'm happy with my decision.
Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,395


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #71 on: February 01, 2013, 09:20:56 PM »

Thanks for the clarification. I still think it's quite shocking: their local Catholic Church told them to leave Catholicism for Orthodoxy?  Shocked But perhaps you guys feel differently about it than I do.

P.S. Apologies to those readers who have seen this quote before, but I can't help thinking of it whenever Catholics tell (Eastern) Catholics to leave Catholicism for Orthodoxy:

Quote from: Fr. J. Steele
The OICWR crowd is a tiny but vocal minority resident mostly online at ByzCath. They are not representative of the countless good Eastern Catholics one finds in church on Sunday.

I would beg to differ that these malcontents do not display a toxic anti-Westernism. That is pretty much all they are about, save a tenuous and virtually meaningless communion with Rome.

Most dox. And they should, in the interest of honesty.

I agree there.  Those OICWR types (which I myself was) are really searching for Orthodoxy without the complication of leaving communion with the Pope.  Most are cradle Catholics, a number of them RCs, who have discovered Orthodoxy but wouldn't want to just give up the Pope.  It is hard after being taught throughout your life that you have to be in communion with the Pope.  Eastern Catholicism is the easy solution, but usually it is a bit lacking as a solution because many EC parishes aren't "Orthodox" enough.  Some do faithfully follow Orthodox tradition, but a bigger number don't.  I think "Orthodox" EC parishes are about as common as Tridentine Mass parishes in the Latin Rite.  So eventually there is that disappointment and sometimes dissention for not getting what we were looking for.  So a good number like myself end up Orthodox.  I don't know about those others, but so far I'm happy with my decision.

Does OICWR stand for: "Orthodox In Communion With Rome"?

When I was in the Melkite Catholic Church, almost our entire parish, except those fleeing from the Novus Ordo Mass, considered ourselves to be "OICWR," especially when the neighboring RC parish of St. Charles Borromeo told the RCs that the Melkites were Eastern Orthodox in schism with Rome.  Roll Eyes

There were some in the Melkite Catholic Church who were still Roman Catholics. These refugees from Vatican II modernism and its Novus Ordo attended the Divine Liturgy in the Melkite Catholic Church, but prayed the Rosary on their knees while the Divine Liturgy was being celebrated. They did not like the SSPX, nor did they consider themselves to be sedevacantists, but truly, they did not feel at home in the Melkite Eastern Catholic Church either.

In the words of my Melkite Bishop, I quite happily crossed over to the Orthodox "using the Eastern Catholic Church as a bridge." Did I ever receive communion in the Orthodox Church while a Melkite? No. I waited until I was received by Chrismation in the Orthodox Church.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 09:29:45 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,170



« Reply #72 on: February 02, 2013, 09:15:41 AM »

... many EC parishes aren't "Orthodox" enough.

Just once, I'd like to hear someone say "Many Orthodox parishes aren't EC enough."
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Moderated
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,443


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #73 on: February 02, 2013, 09:19:49 AM »

... many EC parishes aren't "Orthodox" enough.

Just once, I'd like to hear someone say "Many Orthodox parishes aren't EC enough."


A quintessential exercise in futility, I'm afraid.  Wink
« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 09:20:13 AM by LBK » Logged
Fr.Aidan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Russian Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
Posts: 503


Ds. superbis resistit; humilibus autem dat gratiam


WWW
« Reply #74 on: February 03, 2013, 07:38:04 PM »

Thank you, Peter, you made me chortle, halfway through a very long (but good!) day.

I am enjoying the dangerous edge afforded me by my "Warned" status.

"You better look out, bud, did you happen to notice I'm warned?"
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 07:39:10 PM by Fr.Aidan » Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,170



« Reply #75 on: February 03, 2013, 10:52:35 PM »

I have the death sentence in 12 systems.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,070



« Reply #76 on: February 04, 2013, 03:40:46 AM »

Let's keep it on topic or I will lock this thread.  Thank you -username! Orthodox-Catholic moderator
Logged

Maria
Orthodox Christian
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,395


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #77 on: February 04, 2013, 03:45:52 AM »

Thanks for the clarification. I still think it's quite shocking: their local Catholic Church told them to leave Catholicism for Orthodoxy?  Shocked But perhaps you guys feel differently about it than I do.

P.S. Apologies to those readers who have seen this quote before, but I can't help thinking of it whenever Catholics tell (Eastern) Catholics to leave Catholicism for Orthodoxy:

Quote from: Fr. J. Steele
The OICWR crowd is a tiny but vocal minority resident mostly online at ByzCath. They are not representative of the countless good Eastern Catholics one finds in church on Sunday.

I would beg to differ that these malcontents do not display a toxic anti-Westernism. That is pretty much all they are about, save a tenuous and virtually meaningless communion with Rome.

Most dox. And they should, in the interest of honesty.

I agree there.  Those OICWR types (which I myself was) are really searching for Orthodoxy without the complication of leaving communion with the Pope.  Most are cradle Catholics, a number of them RCs, who have discovered Orthodoxy but wouldn't want to just give up the Pope.  It is hard after being taught throughout your life that you have to be in communion with the Pope.  Eastern Catholicism is the easy solution, but usually it is a bit lacking as a solution because many EC parishes aren't "Orthodox" enough.  Some do faithfully follow Orthodox tradition, but a bigger number don't.  I think "Orthodox" EC parishes are about as common as Tridentine Mass parishes in the Latin Rite.  So eventually there is that disappointment and sometimes dissention for not getting what we were looking for.  So a good number like myself end up Orthodox.  I don't know about those others, but so far I'm happy with my decision.

Does OICWR stand for: "Orthodox In Communion With Rome"?

When I was in the Melkite Catholic Church, almost our entire parish, except those fleeing from the Novus Ordo Mass, considered ourselves to be "OICWR," especially when the neighboring RC parish of St. Charles Borromeo told the RCs that the Melkites were Eastern Orthodox in schism with Rome.  Roll Eyes

There were some in the Melkite Catholic Church who were still Roman Catholics. These refugees from Vatican II modernism and its Novus Ordo attended the Divine Liturgy in the Melkite Catholic Church, but prayed the Rosary on their knees while the Divine Liturgy was being celebrated. They did not like the SSPX, nor did they consider themselves to be sedevacantists, but truly, they did not feel at home in the Melkite Eastern Catholic Church either.

In the words of my Melkite Bishop, I quite happily crossed over to the Orthodox "using the Eastern Catholic Church as a bridge." Did I ever receive communion in the Orthodox Church while a Melkite? No. I waited until I was received by Chrismation in the Orthodox Church.

When I was a Melkite Eastern Catholic, one of our deacons received Communion during his travels when  there was no Eastern Catholic Church. He would simply contact the Orthodox Priest who would usually request him to go to Confession beforehand. And this happened worldwide: in Australia, in parts of the USA, in Europe, in the Middle East, and in Greece too.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #78 on: February 04, 2013, 03:48:43 AM »

Thanks for the clarification. I still think it's quite shocking: their local Catholic Church told them to leave Catholicism for Orthodoxy?  Shocked But perhaps you guys feel differently about it than I do.

P.S. Apologies to those readers who have seen this quote before, but I can't help thinking of it whenever Catholics tell (Eastern) Catholics to leave Catholicism for Orthodoxy:

Quote from: Fr. J. Steele
The OICWR crowd is a tiny but vocal minority resident mostly online at ByzCath. They are not representative of the countless good Eastern Catholics one finds in church on Sunday.

I would beg to differ that these malcontents do not display a toxic anti-Westernism. That is pretty much all they are about, save a tenuous and virtually meaningless communion with Rome.

Most dox. And they should, in the interest of honesty.

I agree there.  Those OICWR types (which I myself was) are really searching for Orthodoxy without the complication of leaving communion with the Pope.  Most are cradle Catholics, a number of them RCs, who have discovered Orthodoxy but wouldn't want to just give up the Pope.  It is hard after being taught throughout your life that you have to be in communion with the Pope.  Eastern Catholicism is the easy solution, but usually it is a bit lacking as a solution because many EC parishes aren't "Orthodox" enough.  Some do faithfully follow Orthodox tradition, but a bigger number don't.  I think "Orthodox" EC parishes are about as common as Tridentine Mass parishes in the Latin Rite.  So eventually there is that disappointment and sometimes dissention for not getting what we were looking for.  So a good number like myself end up Orthodox.  I don't know about those others, but so far I'm happy with my decision.

Does OICWR stand for: "Orthodox In Communion With Rome"?

When I was in the Melkite Catholic Church, almost our entire parish, except those fleeing from the Novus Ordo Mass, considered ourselves to be "OICWR," especially when the neighboring RC parish of St. Charles Borromeo told the RCs that the Melkites were Eastern Orthodox in schism with Rome.  Roll Eyes

There were some in the Melkite Catholic Church who were still Roman Catholics. These refugees from Vatican II modernism and its Novus Ordo attended the Divine Liturgy in the Melkite Catholic Church, but prayed the Rosary on their knees while the Divine Liturgy was being celebrated. They did not like the SSPX, nor did they consider themselves to be sedevacantists, but truly, they did not feel at home in the Melkite Eastern Catholic Church either.

In the words of my Melkite Bishop, I quite happily crossed over to the Orthodox "using the Eastern Catholic Church as a bridge." Did I ever receive communion in the Orthodox Church while a Melkite? No. I waited until I was received by Chrismation in the Orthodox Church.

When I was a Melkite Eastern Catholic, one of our deacons received Communion during his travels when  there was no Eastern Catholic Church. He would simply contact the Orthodox Priest who would usually request him to go to Confession beforehand. And this happened worldwide: in Australia, in parts of the USA, in Europe, in the Middle East, and in Greece too.

Yes, as I mentioned it does happen out there.  And usually for Eastern Catholics.  Probably not as much for Roman Catholics.  Those cases that I have heard of that Catholics are allowed by the Orthodox priest to receive are Eastern Catholics.  I haven't heard of an RC being welcomed to receive in an Orthodox parish.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 03:49:33 AM by choy » Logged
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,070



« Reply #79 on: February 04, 2013, 03:53:19 AM »

Thanks for the clarification. I still think it's quite shocking: their local Catholic Church told them to leave Catholicism for Orthodoxy?  Shocked But perhaps you guys feel differently about it than I do.

P.S. Apologies to those readers who have seen this quote before, but I can't help thinking of it whenever Catholics tell (Eastern) Catholics to leave Catholicism for Orthodoxy:

Quote from: Fr. J. Steele
The OICWR crowd is a tiny but vocal minority resident mostly online at ByzCath. They are not representative of the countless good Eastern Catholics one finds in church on Sunday.

I would beg to differ that these malcontents do not display a toxic anti-Westernism. That is pretty much all they are about, save a tenuous and virtually meaningless communion with Rome.

Most dox. And they should, in the interest of honesty.

I agree there.  Those OICWR types (which I myself was) are really searching for Orthodoxy without the complication of leaving communion with the Pope.  Most are cradle Catholics, a number of them RCs, who have discovered Orthodoxy but wouldn't want to just give up the Pope.  It is hard after being taught throughout your life that you have to be in communion with the Pope.  Eastern Catholicism is the easy solution, but usually it is a bit lacking as a solution because many EC parishes aren't "Orthodox" enough.  Some do faithfully follow Orthodox tradition, but a bigger number don't.  I think "Orthodox" EC parishes are about as common as Tridentine Mass parishes in the Latin Rite.  So eventually there is that disappointment and sometimes dissention for not getting what we were looking for.  So a good number like myself end up Orthodox.  I don't know about those others, but so far I'm happy with my decision.

Does OICWR stand for: "Orthodox In Communion With Rome"?

When I was in the Melkite Catholic Church, almost our entire parish, except those fleeing from the Novus Ordo Mass, considered ourselves to be "OICWR," especially when the neighboring RC parish of St. Charles Borromeo told the RCs that the Melkites were Eastern Orthodox in schism with Rome.  Roll Eyes

There were some in the Melkite Catholic Church who were still Roman Catholics. These refugees from Vatican II modernism and its Novus Ordo attended the Divine Liturgy in the Melkite Catholic Church, but prayed the Rosary on their knees while the Divine Liturgy was being celebrated. They did not like the SSPX, nor did they consider themselves to be sedevacantists, but truly, they did not feel at home in the Melkite Eastern Catholic Church either.

In the words of my Melkite Bishop, I quite happily crossed over to the Orthodox "using the Eastern Catholic Church as a bridge." Did I ever receive communion in the Orthodox Church while a Melkite? No. I waited until I was received by Chrismation in the Orthodox Church.

When I was a Melkite Eastern Catholic, one of our deacons received Communion during his travels when  there was no Eastern Catholic Church. He would simply contact the Orthodox Priest who would usually request him to go to Confession beforehand. And this happened worldwide: in Australia, in parts of the USA, in Europe, in the Middle East, and in Greece too.

Alot of this happens.  But since the internet says it doesn't then it must not.  Even though it happens in real life outside the internet Smiley
Logged

Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #80 on: February 04, 2013, 02:48:32 PM »

I disagree with the terminology "Catholic Communion" and "Orthodox Communion" when referring to the Holy Eucharist. It's either the Eucharist or it isn't. Jesus doesn't come in different flavors.
Logged
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #81 on: February 04, 2013, 02:49:39 PM »

I disagree with the terminology "Catholic Communion" and "Orthodox Communion" when referring to the Holy Eucharist. It's either the Eucharist or it isn't. Jesus doesn't come in different flavors.

How about the Lutherans and Anglicans?
Logged
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #82 on: February 04, 2013, 02:50:34 PM »

I disagree with the terminology "Catholic Communion" and "Orthodox Communion" when referring to the Holy Eucharist. It's either the Eucharist or it isn't. Jesus doesn't come in different flavors.

How about the Lutherans and Anglicans?
I call theirs bread and wine, because that's what it is.
Logged
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,234


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #83 on: February 04, 2013, 02:51:01 PM »

I disagree with the terminology "Catholic Communion" and "Orthodox Communion" when referring to the Holy Eucharist. It's either the Eucharist or it isn't. Jesus doesn't come in different flavors.

How about the Lutherans and Anglicans?

How 'bout 'em?  Is what they call "Eucharist" (do they call it that??) truly the Body and Blood of Christ?
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #84 on: February 04, 2013, 02:56:30 PM »

I disagree with the terminology "Catholic Communion" and "Orthodox Communion" when referring to the Holy Eucharist. It's either the Eucharist or it isn't. Jesus doesn't come in different flavors.

How about the Lutherans and Anglicans?
I call theirs bread and wine, because that's what it is.

Now you see where we are coming from.
Logged
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,234


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #85 on: February 04, 2013, 03:00:50 PM »

I disagree with the terminology "Catholic Communion" and "Orthodox Communion" when referring to the Holy Eucharist. It's either the Eucharist or it isn't. Jesus doesn't come in different flavors.

How about the Lutherans and Anglicans?
I call theirs bread and wine, because that's what it is.

Now you see where we are coming from.

So...now we're back to the "ours (Orthodox) really is the Body and Blood but yours (Catholic) isn't" argument between Catholics and Orthodox?

If that is so, why are Orthodox and Catholics sometimes permitted to partake of the others' Communion?
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #86 on: February 04, 2013, 03:24:13 PM »

I disagree with the terminology "Catholic Communion" and "Orthodox Communion" when referring to the Holy Eucharist. It's either the Eucharist or it isn't. Jesus doesn't come in different flavors.

How about the Lutherans and Anglicans?
I call theirs bread and wine, because that's what it is.
Now you see where we are coming from.
Except we really aren't "coming from" the same place. The Eastern Orthodox answer to whether the Eucharist exists outside the Church is "we don't know." We actually believe that Anglican and Lutheran "communion" does not have the Real Presence.
Logged
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #87 on: February 04, 2013, 03:35:36 PM »

I disagree with the terminology "Catholic Communion" and "Orthodox Communion" when referring to the Holy Eucharist. It's either the Eucharist or it isn't. Jesus doesn't come in different flavors.

How about the Lutherans and Anglicans?
I call theirs bread and wine, because that's what it is.
Now you see where we are coming from.
Except we really aren't "coming from" the same place. The Eastern Orthodox answer to whether the Eucharist exists outside the Church is "we don't know." We actually believe that Anglican and Lutheran "communion" does not have the Real Presence.

Depends who you ask really.  Do you think those who rebaptize Catholic converts would just leave it a vague "we don't know" when clearly even baptism isn't viewed as "valid"?

The Orthodox actually have a very different viewpoint on how the Eucharist comes to be, not in the mechanical way the Catholics have defined it.  If a small group of lay Orthodox Christians are trapped in an island and all they have is rice crackers and apple juice, can they celebrate the Eucharist?  The Catholic Church would say "no" definitively.  The Orthodox Church wouldn't say outright "yes" or "no", but believing in the mercy of God and the circumstances of the people who cannot possibly have the proper bread and wine, we don't discount the possibility that God will grant these people the Eucharist.

And going to your point of "we don't know."  You're right, we don't.  So why would we even take that risk?  I personally believe the Eucharist is present in the Catholic Church, but that is my own personal opinion which I am not going to push on the Church.  So why are you complaining if we say "Catholic Communion" and "Orthodox Communion"?  We knows ours is valid, and we don't know (as a whole) if yours is.  So why are we going to put them in the same category?
Logged
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #88 on: February 04, 2013, 03:36:43 PM »

I disagree with the terminology "Catholic Communion" and "Orthodox Communion" when referring to the Holy Eucharist. It's either the Eucharist or it isn't. Jesus doesn't come in different flavors.

How about the Lutherans and Anglicans?
I call theirs bread and wine, because that's what it is.

Now you see where we are coming from.

So...now we're back to the "ours (Orthodox) really is the Body and Blood but yours (Catholic) isn't" argument between Catholics and Orthodox?

If that is so, why are Orthodox and Catholics sometimes permitted to partake of the others' Communion?

I've heard of Catholics receiving in Orthodox parishes but not the other way around.  But of course, I do not know everything.
Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,170



« Reply #89 on: February 04, 2013, 04:09:39 PM »

I disagree with the terminology "Catholic Communion" and "Orthodox Communion" when referring to the Holy Eucharist. It's either the Eucharist or it isn't. Jesus doesn't come in different flavors.

How about the Lutherans and Anglicans?
I call theirs bread and wine, because that's what it is.

Now you see where we are coming from.

So...now we're back to the "ours (Orthodox) really is the Body and Blood but yours (Catholic) isn't" argument between Catholics and Orthodox?

I think the discussion could easily go there next, but it hasn't yet. Unless I missed something.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #90 on: February 04, 2013, 04:29:47 PM »

I think something that is missed by Wyatt's "there are no different flavors of Jesus" approach to talking about the Eucharist is the fact that we call it "communion" because it has everything to do with community (this being one of the definitions of κοινωνία, if I'm not mistaken). This isn't to say that Catholics don't have community and Orthodox do (or vice-versa), but it does explain how we can stay out of discussions about the nature of other churches' Eucharist while still forbidding our people to commune with them. As I have been told by people in my church regarding visiting the OCA back home on holidays, "We don't commune with them." Not "they don't have a true Eucharist" or "their Eucharist is 'invalid'" or whatever, just "we don't commune with them". It doesn't really say anything about their Eucharist, but it does address the reality of our separation from them.

Just an idea.
Logged

choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #91 on: February 04, 2013, 06:16:31 PM »

I think something that is missed by Wyatt's "there are no different flavors of Jesus" approach to talking about the Eucharist is the fact that we call it "communion" because it has everything to do with community (this being one of the definitions of κοινωνία, if I'm not mistaken). This isn't to say that Catholics don't have community and Orthodox do (or vice-versa), but it does explain how we can stay out of discussions about the nature of other churches' Eucharist while still forbidding our people to commune with them. As I have been told by people in my church regarding visiting the OCA back home on holidays, "We don't commune with them." Not "they don't have a true Eucharist" or "their Eucharist is 'invalid'" or whatever, just "we don't commune with them". It doesn't really say anything about their Eucharist, but it does address the reality of our separation from them.

Just an idea.

Great point!
Logged
Nephi
Monster Tamer
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Online Online

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Byzantine
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,688



« Reply #92 on: February 04, 2013, 07:20:51 PM »

I've heard of Catholics receiving in Orthodox parishes but not the other way around.  But of course, I do not know everything.
I've heard of a number of Orthodox receiving at Catholic parishes when they visit, go on vacation, etc. I'm pretty certain they don't have permission, and don't see the need to obtain it. I think quite a few of the cradles from my parish do this.
Logged
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #93 on: February 04, 2013, 07:21:55 PM »

I've heard of Catholics receiving in Orthodox parishes but not the other way around.  But of course, I do not know everything.
I've heard of a number of Orthodox receiving at Catholic parishes when they visit, go on vacation, etc. I'm pretty certain they don't have permission, and don't see the need to obtain it. I think quite a few of the cradles from my parish do this.

Do you think their priest would approve?  I know mine won't.
Logged
Nephi
Monster Tamer
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Online Online

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Byzantine
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,688



« Reply #94 on: February 04, 2013, 07:23:22 PM »

Do you think their priest would approve?  I know mine won't.
Absolutely not. In fact, I had asked my priest how to properly behave when attending a Catholic mass (with friends, at weddings, etc.), and there was no question that it was improper to receive.

Doesn't necessarily stop the parishioners from communing without telling him, though.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 07:23:48 PM by Nephi » Logged
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #95 on: February 05, 2013, 04:48:16 PM »

I think something that is missed by Wyatt's "there are no different flavors of Jesus" approach to talking about the Eucharist is the fact that we call it "communion" because it has everything to do with community (this being one of the definitions of κοινωνία, if I'm not mistaken). This isn't to say that Catholics don't have community and Orthodox do (or vice-versa), but it does explain how we can stay out of discussions about the nature of other churches' Eucharist while still forbidding our people to commune with them. As I have been told by people in my church regarding visiting the OCA back home on holidays, "We don't commune with them." Not "they don't have a true Eucharist" or "their Eucharist is 'invalid'" or whatever, just "we don't commune with them". It doesn't really say anything about their Eucharist, but it does address the reality of our separation from them.

Just an idea.
I get where you are coming from. However, I am comforted by the fact that my Church teaches what is and is not the Eucharist. If I were ever in a dire situation and, assuming I got permission from the EO Priest, it is good to know I can receive in the EO Church. I would not do it under normal circumstances though, both out of respect for the EOC and because, since we are not in full communion, it wouldn't be appropriate to do so frivolously. I would hope that, in a hypothetical dire scenario (danger of death), that an EO Priest would administer Sacraments to me.
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,476


« Reply #96 on: February 05, 2013, 04:49:06 PM »

I would hope that, in a hypothetical dire scenario (danger of death), that an EO Priest would administer Sacraments to me.

I hope he wouldn't unless you wanted to be received into the Church.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 04:49:21 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,234


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #97 on: February 05, 2013, 05:56:06 PM »

I would hope that, in a hypothetical dire scenario (danger of death), that an EO Priest would administer Sacraments to me.

I hope he wouldn't unless you wanted to be received into the Church.

I'm curious to know what your own priest would do in such a situation.  You know, a Catholic in imminent danger of death requests the Sacraments, including Holy Communion, of him and there's no Catholic priest available--what would he do?
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Moderated
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,443


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #98 on: February 05, 2013, 06:01:15 PM »

I would hope that, in a hypothetical dire scenario (danger of death), that an EO Priest would administer Sacraments to me.

I hope he wouldn't unless you wanted to be received into the Church.

I'm curious to know what your own priest would do in such a situation.  You know, a Catholic in imminent danger of death requests the Sacraments, including Holy Communion, of him and there's no Catholic priest available--what would he do?

None of the dozen or so Orthodox priests, across several jurisdictions and ethnicities I have known in my 50 or so years in Orthodoxy would give communion to a heterodox under any circumstances, unless that person converted first. They quite rightly take their vow of guarding the chalice very seriously.
Logged
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #99 on: February 05, 2013, 06:01:45 PM »

I would hope that, in a hypothetical dire scenario (danger of death), that an EO Priest would administer Sacraments to me.

I hope he wouldn't unless you wanted to be received into the Church.

I'm curious to know what your own priest would do in such a situation.  You know, a Catholic in imminent danger of death requests the Sacraments, including Holy Communion, of him and there's no Catholic priest available--what would he do?

Knowing my own priest, I'm guessing he would do prayers and blessings but not give the Sacraments.
Logged
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #100 on: February 05, 2013, 06:02:52 PM »

I would hope that, in a hypothetical dire scenario (danger of death), that an EO Priest would administer Sacraments to me.

I hope he wouldn't unless you wanted to be received into the Church.

I'm curious to know what your own priest would do in such a situation.  You know, a Catholic in imminent danger of death requests the Sacraments, including Holy Communion, of him and there's no Catholic priest available--what would he do?

None of the dozen or so Orthodox priests, across several jurisdictions and ethnicities I have known in my 50 or so years in Orthodoxy would give communion to a heterodox under any circumstances, unless that person converted first. They quite rightly take their vow of guarding the chalice very seriously.

How about anointing?  Do you think they would anoint?  Curious here.
Logged
Fr.Aidan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Russian Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
Posts: 503


Ds. superbis resistit; humilibus autem dat gratiam


WWW
« Reply #101 on: February 05, 2013, 07:42:20 PM »

Deathbed Communion cannot be given except to those who belong to the Greco-Russian Eastern Orthodox Church. The exception regarding this that was made by the Moscow Patriarchate for a few years recently, has been rescinded and the normative practice has resumed. But if some other sort of Christian wished to join the Orthodox Church, that could be accomplished by economia in an instant, and Communion could follow the instant after that.

Non-sacramental anointings can be given to non-Orthodox. Holy Unction can't.
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,476


« Reply #102 on: February 06, 2013, 03:42:13 AM »

What is a "Greco-Russian Eastern Orthodox Church"? Another one living-room synod?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 03:42:27 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged
Dominika
Serbian/Polish
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of Poland
Posts: 1,055


St. Luke, pray for us!


WWW
« Reply #103 on: February 06, 2013, 03:46:32 AM »

What is a "Greco-Russian Eastern Orthodox Church"? Another one living-room synod?

First time have heard about this Church (or: "Church"). Maybe fr. Aidan meant "Russian Greek-Catholic Church"?... But the word "Orthodox" it's not apropriate, although some Greek-Catholics like call themselves "Orthodox" as you know
Logged

Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #104 on: February 06, 2013, 06:58:33 AM »

When is it ok for Orthodox to receive communion, or confession for that matter, from a Catholic priest?
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,476


« Reply #105 on: February 06, 2013, 07:02:53 AM »

When is it ok for Orthodox to receive communion, or confession for that matter, from a Catholic priest?

When he wills to make an apostasy.
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #106 on: February 06, 2013, 07:10:58 AM »

When is it ok for Orthodox to receive communion, or confession for that matter, from a Catholic priest?

When he wills to make an apostasy.
To ensure I understand you, let’s say a U.S. Army soldier gets an 18 month deployment to Afghanistan and there are no Orthodox priests available, he just suffers the entire 18 months?  No confession, not communion, nothing?
Logged
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Moderated
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,443


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #107 on: February 06, 2013, 07:16:35 AM »

When is it ok for Orthodox to receive communion, or confession for that matter, from a Catholic priest?

When he wills to make an apostasy.
To ensure I understand you, let’s say a U.S. Army soldier gets an 18 month deployment to Afghanistan and there are no Orthodox priests available, he just suffers the entire 18 months?  No confession, not communion, nothing?

Michal is right. To knowingly receive non-Orthodox communion is, in effect, to apostasize. If the Church does not condone an Orthodox person or couple marrying outside the Church, then how much more serious is it for an Orthodox person to partake of heterodox communion? Think about it.
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #108 on: February 06, 2013, 07:22:03 AM »

When is it ok for Orthodox to receive communion, or confession for that matter, from a Catholic priest?

When he wills to make an apostasy.
To ensure I understand you, let’s say a U.S. Army soldier gets an 18 month deployment to Afghanistan and there are no Orthodox priests available, he just suffers the entire 18 months?  No confession, not communion, nothing?

Michal is right. To knowingly receive non-Orthodox communion is, in effect, to apostasize. If the Church does not condone an Orthodox person or couple marrying outside the Church, then how much more serious is it for an Orthodox person to partake of heterodox communion? Think about it.
I’m not saying I disagree, but wanting to clarify.  I was under the understanding ones Bishop could authorize it for a temporary amount of time.
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 30,202


that is not the teaching of...


« Reply #109 on: February 06, 2013, 07:23:19 AM »

To ensure I understand you, let’s say a U.S. Army soldier gets an 18 month deployment to Afghanistan and there are no Orthodox priests available, he just suffers the entire 18 months?  No confession, not communion, nothing?

Whether he goes to the Catholic priest or not he will have no confession, no communion, etc. I believe that God will grant such a person grace in a mystical way in such cases.
Logged
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,815


Cyrillico est imperare orbi universo


« Reply #110 on: February 06, 2013, 07:24:33 AM »

Don't OO and EO laity intercommune to some degree even in the US? I've heard that there's practical intercommunion in Syria between Antiochians, Melkites and Jacobites. Would that qualify as apostasy?
Logged

"Claret is the liquor for boys; port for men; but he who aspires to be a hero must drink brandy."
-Dr. Samuel Johnson
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Moderated
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,443


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #111 on: February 06, 2013, 07:29:43 AM »

To ensure I understand you, let’s say a U.S. Army soldier gets an 18 month deployment to Afghanistan and there are no Orthodox priests available, he just suffers the entire 18 months?  No confession, not communion, nothing?

Whether he goes to the Catholic priest or not he will have no confession, no communion, etc. I believe that God will grant such a person grace in a mystical way in such cases.

This. Better to go without, and continue to pray. St Mary of Egypt went without for many years, as did any number of hermit-saints and pillar-dwellers, yet their patience and forbearance is an example to us all. God is not ignorant of anyone's efforts.
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 30,202


that is not the teaching of...


« Reply #112 on: February 06, 2013, 07:30:15 AM »

Don't OO and EO laity intercommune to some degree even in the US? I've heard that there's practical intercommunion in Syria between Antiochians, Melkites and Jacobites. Would that qualify as apostasy?

I once posted this, as my understanding of what happens, at least in America...

Fwiw, I've been at a couple Antiochian parishes that has allowed people of different groups (I think always Oriental Orthodox) to participate in the sacraments. In talked with one of the priests about this, he explained to me that, so far as he understood, someone wasn't supposed to simply come and go and be able to take communion whenever they wanted. Rather, if someone was too far away from a parish of their own group, and that person was willing to become part of the Eastern Orthodox parish, they would be allowed to join the parish and commune/confess/etc. without being required to make any particular statement of faith or renunciation of this or that belief. Only the priest/bishop over the parish will know for sure for that parish... so it's possible, but good to ask to be certain.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 07:31:50 AM by Asteriktos » Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,170



« Reply #113 on: February 06, 2013, 06:58:48 PM »

What is a "Greco-Russian Eastern Orthodox Church"?

Good question. I was assuming that Fr. Aidan was using "Greco-Russian" to distinguish from the Non-Chalcedonian Orthodox (although I'm not sure why that would be necessary, since we already have the usual qualifiers "Eastern" vs. "Oriental").
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #114 on: February 06, 2013, 07:09:05 PM »

Don't OO and EO laity intercommune to some degree even in the US? I've heard that there's practical intercommunion in Syria between Antiochians, Melkites and Jacobites. Would that qualify as apostasy?

In places where there's persecution, intercommunion happens.  I guess when we have our backs against the wall, those petty theological arguments doesn't seem as important.
Logged
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #115 on: February 06, 2013, 07:36:49 PM »

Don't OO and EO laity intercommune to some degree even in the US? I've heard that there's practical intercommunion in Syria between Antiochians, Melkites and Jacobites. Would that qualify as apostasy?

I once posted this, as my understanding of what happens, at least in America...

Fwiw, I've been at a couple Antiochian parishes that has allowed people of different groups (I think always Oriental Orthodox) to participate in the sacraments. In talked with one of the priests about this, he explained to me that, so far as he understood, someone wasn't supposed to simply come and go and be able to take communion whenever they wanted. Rather, if someone was too far away from a parish of their own group, and that person was willing to become part of the Eastern Orthodox parish, they would be allowed to join the parish and commune/confess/etc. without being required to make any particular statement of faith or renunciation of this or that belief. Only the priest/bishop over the parish will know for sure for that parish... so it's possible, but good to ask to be certain.

This is how it is back home in Northern California with the local Ethiopians and Eritreans. They attend the OCA or the Bulgarian Church because there is an agreement in place that allows them to do so, since there is no OO church of any jurisdiction within a reasonable distance. I assume that if there were to be an Ethiopian or Eritrean Church in the area at some point in the future (and they're the only visible OO presence in the area, so it would be one of those), they'd go to that instead. It's a stop-gap solution for now, since there's enough of them that they are a recognized community within the patchwork of Orthodox people in the area, but apparently not enough (or they don't have enough money, or the appropriate land) for them to have an actual church. Living in an area now where the local Copts have gathered for 16 years in a private house for liturgy, I can relate to their situation. It's not ideal, but it is very nice to have local OCA and Bulgarians be so welcoming.
Logged

J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,234


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #116 on: February 06, 2013, 07:56:38 PM »

Don't OO and EO laity intercommune to some degree even in the US? I've heard that there's practical intercommunion in Syria between Antiochians, Melkites and Jacobites. Would that qualify as apostasy?

In places where there's persecution, intercommunion happens.  I guess when we have our backs against the wall, those petty theological arguments doesn't seem as important.

There are places where there is NOT persecution where intercommunion between Catholics and Orthodox occurs.  Shhhh......don't tell anybody, though--might rattle some cages.  This has been discussed in some depth on other threads here in the past.  That's all I'm gonna say about it on this one (I hope  Wink!).
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #117 on: February 06, 2013, 07:59:41 PM »

Don't OO and EO laity intercommune to some degree even in the US? I've heard that there's practical intercommunion in Syria between Antiochians, Melkites and Jacobites. Would that qualify as apostasy?

In places where there's persecution, intercommunion happens.  I guess when we have our backs against the wall, those petty theological arguments doesn't seem as important.

There are places where there is NOT persecution where intercommunion between Catholics and Orthodox occurs.  Shhhh......don't tell anybody, though--might rattle some cages.  This has been discussed in some depth on other threads here in the past.  That's all I'm gonna say about it on this one (I hope  Wink!).

I know, and like you I refuse to disclose further information for fear that they may be unfairly judged.
Logged
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,234


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #118 on: February 06, 2013, 08:02:51 PM »

Don't OO and EO laity intercommune to some degree even in the US? I've heard that there's practical intercommunion in Syria between Antiochians, Melkites and Jacobites. Would that qualify as apostasy?

In places where there's persecution, intercommunion happens.  I guess when we have our backs against the wall, those petty theological arguments doesn't seem as important.

There are places where there is NOT persecution where intercommunion between Catholics and Orthodox occurs.  Shhhh......don't tell anybody, though--might rattle some cages.  This has been discussed in some depth on other threads here in the past.  That's all I'm gonna say about it on this one (I hope  Wink!).

I know, and like you I refuse to disclose further information for fear that they may be unfairly judged.

 Wink
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
Fr.Aidan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Russian Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
Posts: 503


Ds. superbis resistit; humilibus autem dat gratiam


WWW
« Reply #119 on: February 06, 2013, 08:10:56 PM »

There have also been "discreet" instances of inter-communion between Orthodox and Episcopalians, and Orthodox and Lutherans, and Orthodox and Anglicans, and doubtless other interesting combinations.

However, for an Eastern Orthodox to take communion in a non-Eastern Orthodox church, is apostasy and is a grievous sin. Much better to die IN communion WITHOUT communion, than to die OUT of communion WITH "communion." For then you die outside the Church, which is the Body of Christ. This issue very often came up back in Arianism's heyday.

It is also completely not possible for an Eastern Orthodox priest to give communion to an Oriental Orthodox, or a Roman Catholic, or a Lutheran, or an Anglican, although it certainly happens. Many other "impossible" things do happen from time to time, but private unbelief doesn't erase the dogma, and private conduct doesn't alter the rule.

"Greco-Russian" is how the Eastern Orthodox Church was distinguished from other faith-confessions, back in the day. It just means the faith of the Greek Orthodox and the Russian Orthodox, which includes all the other Chalcedonian Orthodox. The modern distinction between "Eastern" Orthodox and "Oriental" Orthodox was very recently promoted and I read some old fuddy-duddy books. Even the distinction between "Roman Catholic" and "Eastern Orthodox" (whether Chalcedonian or anti-Chalcedonian) is of very recent vintage, comparatively. "Greek Catholic" used to mean "Greek Orthodox," etc., etc. So I was speaking in a slightly antique fashion, for no particular reason. 

« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 08:14:20 PM by Fr.Aidan » Logged
thethinker
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 73



« Reply #120 on: February 06, 2013, 08:37:01 PM »

A Catholic priest answered a question about whether a Catholic may receive the Eucharist in an Orthodox Church:

Quote
So if you are stationed in a country where no Roman Catholic church is nearby, say within an hour’s drive, but there is a Greek Orthodox church near you, you can lawfully — according to the Catholic Code of Canon Law — attend their liturgical services and receive holy Communion, or confession, or the anointing of the sick, because all seven sacraments instituted by Christ are valid in the Orthodox churches.

I think the priest forgot to mention one thing: the Catholic would need to get approval from the Orthodox priest before receiving Communion; whether the Orthodox priest would agree to this, is another story.

Where does the scripture say that one needs permsission to receive the eucharist? When Paul regulated it he said nothing about needing permssion.
Logged
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 14,422


fleem
WWW
« Reply #121 on: February 06, 2013, 08:47:34 PM »

A Catholic priest answered a question about whether a Catholic may receive the Eucharist in an Orthodox Church:

Quote
So if you are stationed in a country where no Roman Catholic church is nearby, say within an hour’s drive, but there is a Greek Orthodox church near you, you can lawfully — according to the Catholic Code of Canon Law — attend their liturgical services and receive holy Communion, or confession, or the anointing of the sick, because all seven sacraments instituted by Christ are valid in the Orthodox churches.

I think the priest forgot to mention one thing: the Catholic would need to get approval from the Orthodox priest before receiving Communion; whether the Orthodox priest would agree to this, is another story.

Where does the scripture say that one needs permsission to receive the eucharist? When Paul regulated it he said nothing about needing permssion.

In John Ch. 6, it talks extensively about the nature of Holy Communion, which is the Body and Blood of Christ. In Paul's letters he also says he doesn't want you to receive in an unworthy state, or else you may eat and drink unto your condemnation.
Logged

Charlie Rose: "If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?"

Fran Lebowitz: "Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisified."

spcasuncoast.org
thethinker
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 73



« Reply #122 on: February 06, 2013, 08:52:39 PM »

A Catholic priest answered a question about whether a Catholic may receive the Eucharist in an Orthodox Church:

Quote
So if you are stationed in a country where no Roman Catholic church is nearby, say within an hour’s drive, but there is a Greek Orthodox church near you, you can lawfully — according to the Catholic Code of Canon Law — attend their liturgical services and receive holy Communion, or confession, or the anointing of the sick, because all seven sacraments instituted by Christ are valid in the Orthodox churches.

I think the priest forgot to mention one thing: the Catholic would need to get approval from the Orthodox priest before receiving Communion; whether the Orthodox priest would agree to this, is another story.

Where does the scripture say that one needs permsission to receive the eucharist? When Paul regulated it he said nothing about needing permssion.

In John Ch. 6, it talks extensively about the nature of Holy Communion, which is the Body and Blood of Christ. In Paul's letters he also says he doesn't want you to receive in an unworthy state, or else you may eat and drink unto your condemnation.

Paul told each man to examine HIMSELF. This implies that the man HIMSELF determines whether or not he is worthy. Btw, this would have nothing to do with an Orthodox priest giving permission to a Catholic priest and vice versa.
Logged
Fr.Aidan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Russian Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
Posts: 503


Ds. superbis resistit; humilibus autem dat gratiam


WWW
« Reply #123 on: February 06, 2013, 08:52:56 PM »

Why would it be in the Bible? The Bible has a lot of other information to impart, to be worrying with every detail. Of course the foundation for this is laid in the epistles of St. Paul. It's like expecting the United States Constitution to contain detailed regulations on truck exhaust - why would it?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 08:53:35 PM by Fr.Aidan » Logged
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #124 on: February 06, 2013, 08:54:19 PM »

A Catholic priest answered a question about whether a Catholic may receive the Eucharist in an Orthodox Church:

Quote
So if you are stationed in a country where no Roman Catholic church is nearby, say within an hour’s drive, but there is a Greek Orthodox church near you, you can lawfully — according to the Catholic Code of Canon Law — attend their liturgical services and receive holy Communion, or confession, or the anointing of the sick, because all seven sacraments instituted by Christ are valid in the Orthodox churches.

I think the priest forgot to mention one thing: the Catholic would need to get approval from the Orthodox priest before receiving Communion; whether the Orthodox priest would agree to this, is another story.

Where does the scripture say that one needs permsission to receive the eucharist? When Paul regulated it he said nothing about needing permssion.
Paul didn't say anything about a lot of stuff. Wink
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,170



« Reply #125 on: February 06, 2013, 09:18:19 PM »

It is also completely not possible for an Eastern Orthodox priest to give communion to an Oriental Orthodox, or a Roman Catholic, or a Lutheran, or an Anglican, although it certainly happens. Many other "impossible" things do happen from time to time, but private unbelief doesn't erase the dogma, and private conduct doesn't alter the rule.

If you've done 6 impossible things this morning, why not round it off with breakfast at Milliways?
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,170



« Reply #126 on: February 06, 2013, 09:22:00 PM »

Don't OO and EO laity intercommune to some degree even in the US? I've heard that there's practical intercommunion in Syria between Antiochians, Melkites and Jacobites. Would that qualify as apostasy?

I once posted this, as my understanding of what happens, at least in America...

Fwiw, I've been at a couple Antiochian parishes that has allowed people of different groups (I think always Oriental Orthodox) to participate in the sacraments. In talked with one of the priests about this, he explained to me that, so far as he understood, someone wasn't supposed to simply come and go and be able to take communion whenever they wanted. Rather, if someone was too far away from a parish of their own group, and that person was willing to become part of the Eastern Orthodox parish, they would be allowed to join the parish and commune/confess/etc. without being required to make any particular statement of faith or renunciation of this or that belief. Only the priest/bishop over the parish will know for sure for that parish... so it's possible, but good to ask to be certain.

This is how it is back home in Northern California with the local Ethiopians and Eritreans. They attend the OCA or the Bulgarian Church because there is an agreement in place that allows them to do so, since there is no OO church of any jurisdiction within a reasonable distance.  

That sounds a lot like us: for example, Catholic priests don't give communion to Anglicans just because they ask; but they might in a dire situation, where no Anglican minister is available (assuming other conditions are met, e.g. the Anglican must share our understanding of the Eucharist).
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
thethinker
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 73



« Reply #127 on: February 06, 2013, 10:21:13 PM »

Paul didn't say anything about a lot of stuff. Wink

Then we have the liberty of conscience to observe the eucharist without another man's permission.
Logged
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #128 on: February 06, 2013, 10:25:26 PM »

Paul didn't say anything about a lot of stuff. Wink

Then we have the liberty of conscience to observe the eucharist without another man's permission.
If you're sola scriptura, sure. Shocked
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Nephi
Monster Tamer
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Online Online

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Byzantine
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,688



« Reply #129 on: February 06, 2013, 10:26:22 PM »

Paul didn't say anything about a lot of stuff. Wink

Then we have the liberty of conscience to observe the eucharist without another man's permission.
Orthodoxy does not ascribe to sola scriptura.

Looks like Jetavan beat me to it.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 10:26:41 PM by Nephi » Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,170



« Reply #130 on: February 06, 2013, 10:43:02 PM »

Then we have the liberty of conscience to observe the eucharist without another man's permission.

I would actually agree with that statement. But I think the point here is that the Orthodox won't observe it with you (unless you're Orthodox).
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Fr.Aidan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Russian Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
Posts: 503


Ds. superbis resistit; humilibus autem dat gratiam


WWW
« Reply #131 on: February 06, 2013, 10:55:20 PM »

When is it ok for Orthodox to receive communion, or confession for that matter, from a Catholic priest?

When he wills to make an apostasy.
To ensure I understand you, let’s say a U.S. Army soldier gets an 18 month deployment to Afghanistan and there are no Orthodox priests available, he just suffers the entire 18 months?  No confession, not communion, nothing?

Exactly, and of course.
Logged
Orual
Orthodoxy = 7, not 3
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Sunday Morning Costume Parade
Posts: 951


I'm just here for the food.


« Reply #132 on: February 07, 2013, 12:10:38 AM »

There have also been "discreet" instances of inter-communion between Orthodox and Episcopalians, and Orthodox and Lutherans, and Orthodox and Anglicans, and doubtless other interesting combinations.

However, for an Eastern Orthodox to take communion in a non-Eastern Orthodox church, is apostasy and is a grievous sin. Much better to die IN communion WITHOUT communion, than to die OUT of communion WITH "communion." For then you die outside the Church, which is the Body of Christ. This issue very often came up back in Arianism's heyday.

It is also completely not possible for an Eastern Orthodox priest to give communion to an Oriental Orthodox, or a Roman Catholic, or a Lutheran, or an Anglican, although it certainly happens. Many other "impossible" things do happen from time to time, but private unbelief doesn't erase the dogma, and private conduct doesn't alter the rule.

"Greco-Russian" is how the Eastern Orthodox Church was distinguished from other faith-confessions, back in the day. It just means the faith of the Greek Orthodox and the Russian Orthodox, which includes all the other Chalcedonian Orthodox. The modern distinction between "Eastern" Orthodox and "Oriental" Orthodox was very recently promoted and I read some old fuddy-duddy books. Even the distinction between "Roman Catholic" and "Eastern Orthodox" (whether Chalcedonian or anti-Chalcedonian) is of very recent vintage, comparatively. "Greek Catholic" used to mean "Greek Orthodox," etc., etc. So I was speaking in a slightly antique fashion, for no particular reason. 



This is a brilliant and succinct comment that imparts the complete, unvarnished truth.  Thank you, Fr. Aidan.
Logged

He spoke it as kindly and heartily as could be; as if a man dashed a gallon of cold water in your broth and never doubted you'd like it all the better. 

- C.S. Lewis, Till We Have Faces
f.k.a. Matron.a
Fr.Aidan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Russian Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
Posts: 503


Ds. superbis resistit; humilibus autem dat gratiam


WWW
« Reply #133 on: February 07, 2013, 12:12:46 AM »

Thanks, but I'm a wuss compared to our indomitable forebears. I can pass along their understanding, but fail to live up to them.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 12:13:49 AM by Fr.Aidan » Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #134 on: February 07, 2013, 01:14:36 AM »

I would hope that, in a hypothetical dire scenario (danger of death), that an EO Priest would administer Sacraments to me.

I hope he wouldn't unless you wanted to be received into the Church.

I'm curious to know what your own priest would do in such a situation.  You know, a Catholic in imminent danger of death requests the Sacraments, including Holy Communion, of him and there's no Catholic priest available--what would he do?

None of the dozen or so Orthodox priests, across several jurisdictions and ethnicities I have known in my 50 or so years in Orthodoxy would give communion to a heterodox under any circumstances, unless that person converted first. They quite rightly take their vow of guarding the chalice very seriously.

How about anointing?  Do you think they would anoint?  Curious here.

Holy Unction is a sacrament. But there are other anointings, like with holy oil from a saint.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #135 on: February 07, 2013, 01:17:13 AM »

What is a "Greco-Russian Eastern Orthodox Church"? Another one living-room synod?

No. It refers to the Orthodox Churches.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #136 on: February 07, 2013, 01:18:10 AM »

When is it ok for Orthodox to receive communion, or confession for that matter, from a Catholic priest?

When an Orthodox person wishes to leave the Orthodox Church and join the Roman Catholic Church.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #137 on: February 07, 2013, 01:19:00 AM »

When is it ok for Orthodox to receive communion, or confession for that matter, from a Catholic priest?

When he wills to make an apostasy.
To ensure I understand you, let’s say a U.S. Army soldier gets an 18 month deployment to Afghanistan and there are no Orthodox priests available, he just suffers the entire 18 months?  No confession, not communion, nothing?

There may be other options besides leaving the Church.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #138 on: February 07, 2013, 01:20:07 AM »

When is it ok for Orthodox to receive communion, or confession for that matter, from a Catholic priest?

When he wills to make an apostasy.
To ensure I understand you, let’s say a U.S. Army soldier gets an 18 month deployment to Afghanistan and there are no Orthodox priests available, he just suffers the entire 18 months?  No confession, not communion, nothing?

Michal is right. To knowingly receive non-Orthodox communion is, in effect, to apostasize. If the Church does not condone an Orthodox person or couple marrying outside the Church, then how much more serious is it for an Orthodox person to partake of heterodox communion? Think about it.
I’m not saying I disagree, but wanting to clarify.  I was under the understanding ones Bishop could authorize it for a temporary amount of time.

A bishop might do so, but he would be going against the canons he pledged to keep at his consecration. Not even a bishop can bless something like that.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #139 on: February 07, 2013, 01:20:31 AM »

To ensure I understand you, let’s say a U.S. Army soldier gets an 18 month deployment to Afghanistan and there are no Orthodox priests available, he just suffers the entire 18 months?  No confession, not communion, nothing?

Whether he goes to the Catholic priest or not he will have no confession, no communion, etc. I believe that God will grant such a person grace in a mystical way in such cases.

This.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #140 on: February 07, 2013, 01:22:26 AM »

Don't OO and EO laity intercommune to some degree even in the US? I've heard that there's practical intercommunion in Syria between Antiochians, Melkites and Jacobites. Would that qualify as apostasy?

In places where there's persecution, intercommunion happens.  I guess when we have our backs against the wall, those petty theological arguments doesn't seem as important.

This practice goes against tradition and is tantamount to laziness. It did not happen in Russian during Soviet persecution nor was it blessed by the early Holy Fathers under Roman and Persian persecution. Theology is not petty.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #141 on: February 07, 2013, 01:25:29 AM »

A Catholic priest answered a question about whether a Catholic may receive the Eucharist in an Orthodox Church:

Quote
So if you are stationed in a country where no Roman Catholic church is nearby, say within an hour’s drive, but there is a Greek Orthodox church near you, you can lawfully — according to the Catholic Code of Canon Law — attend their liturgical services and receive holy Communion, or confession, or the anointing of the sick, because all seven sacraments instituted by Christ are valid in the Orthodox churches.

I think the priest forgot to mention one thing: the Catholic would need to get approval from the Orthodox priest before receiving Communion; whether the Orthodox priest would agree to this, is another story.

Where does the scripture say that one needs permsission to receive the eucharist? When Paul regulated it he said nothing about needing permssion.

In John Ch. 6, it talks extensively about the nature of Holy Communion, which is the Body and Blood of Christ. In Paul's letters he also says he doesn't want you to receive in an unworthy state, or else you may eat and drink unto your condemnation.

Paul told each man to examine HIMSELF. This implies that the man HIMSELF determines whether or not he is worthy. Btw, this would have nothing to do with an Orthodox priest giving permission to a Catholic priest and vice versa.

And, St. Paul also said, many who deemed themselves worthy and communed got sick and died precisely because they were incorrect in their assumption.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #142 on: February 07, 2013, 01:47:59 AM »

I disagree with the terminology "Catholic Communion" and "Orthodox Communion" when referring to the Holy Eucharist. It's either the Eucharist or it isn't. Jesus doesn't come in different flavors.

How about the Lutherans and Anglicans?
I call theirs bread and wine, because that's what it is.
Now you see where we are coming from.
Except we really aren't "coming from" the same place. The Eastern Orthodox answer to whether the Eucharist exists outside the Church is "we don't know." We actually believe that Anglican and Lutheran "communion" does not have the Real Presence.

Depends who you ask really.  Do you think those who rebaptize Catholic converts would just leave it a vague "we don't know" when clearly even baptism isn't viewed as "valid"?

The Orthodox actually have a very different viewpoint on how the Eucharist comes to be, not in the mechanical way the Catholics have defined it.  If a small group of lay Orthodox Christians are trapped in an island and all they have is rice crackers and apple juice, can they celebrate the Eucharist?  The Catholic Church would say "no" definitively.  The Orthodox Church wouldn't say outright "yes" or "no", but believing in the mercy of God and the circumstances of the people who cannot possibly have the proper bread and wine, we don't discount the possibility that God will grant these people the Eucharist.

What are you talking about?
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #143 on: February 07, 2013, 01:50:49 AM »

When is it ok for Orthodox to receive communion, or confession for that matter, from a Catholic priest?

When he wills to make an apostasy.
To ensure I understand you, let’s say a U.S. Army soldier gets an 18 month deployment to Afghanistan and there are no Orthodox priests available, he just suffers the entire 18 months?  No confession, not communion, nothing?

He also isn't allowed to make use of whores because he can't see his wife.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #144 on: February 07, 2013, 01:53:26 AM »

Is there anything someone is supposed to do when they know a priest or bishop whose jurisdiction they are under either implicitly or explicitly allows intercommunion? Obviously the practice is wrong but if the hierarch allows it what can one do? BTW this is a hypothetical scenario.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,877


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #145 on: February 07, 2013, 02:05:33 AM »

Probably tell another Bishop or Priest and let them handle it, however, I would first recommend just personally asking the Bishop/Priest in question, what if he has a good reason or it is not as it seems? Don't get him in trouble if you can't prove his guilt.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #146 on: February 07, 2013, 02:05:47 AM »

Is there anything someone is supposed to do when they know a priest or bishop whose jurisdiction they are under either implicitly or explicitly allows intercommunion? Obviously the practice is wrong but if the hierarch allows it what can one do? BTW this is a hypothetical scenario.

Unless you know better, you entrust that they know what they are doing.
Logged
Fr.Aidan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Russian Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
Posts: 503


Ds. superbis resistit; humilibus autem dat gratiam


WWW
« Reply #147 on: February 07, 2013, 02:23:43 AM »

The question of what one should do when one sees others doing wrong, is complex.

Time to consult one's spiritual father, not judge, and pray for light and grace for everyone.
Logged
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,877


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #148 on: February 07, 2013, 02:27:56 AM »

If that is so, why are Orthodox and Catholics sometimes permitted to partake of the others' Communion?

We aren't; you are because, well, I don't know.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,395


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #149 on: February 07, 2013, 02:58:09 AM »

There have also been "discreet" instances of inter-communion between Orthodox and Episcopalians, and Orthodox and Lutherans, and Orthodox and Anglicans, and doubtless other interesting combinations.

However, for an Eastern Orthodox to take communion in a non-Eastern Orthodox church, is apostasy and is a grievous sin. Much better to die IN communion WITHOUT communion, than to die OUT of communion WITH "communion." For then you die outside the Church, which is the Body of Christ. This issue very often came up back in Arianism's heyday.

It is also completely not possible for an Eastern Orthodox priest to give communion to an Oriental Orthodox, or a Roman Catholic, or a Lutheran, or an Anglican, although it certainly happens. Many other "impossible" things do happen from time to time, but private unbelief doesn't erase the dogma, and private conduct doesn't alter the rule.

"Greco-Russian" is how the Eastern Orthodox Church was distinguished from other faith-confessions, back in the day. It just means the faith of the Greek Orthodox and the Russian Orthodox, which includes all the other Chalcedonian Orthodox. The modern distinction between "Eastern" Orthodox and "Oriental" Orthodox was very recently promoted and I read some old fuddy-duddy books. Even the distinction between "Roman Catholic" and "Eastern Orthodox" (whether Chalcedonian or anti-Chalcedonian) is of very recent vintage, comparatively. "Greek Catholic" used to mean "Greek Orthodox," etc., etc. So I was speaking in a slightly antique fashion, for no particular reason. 


Under the Communists, most Orthodox Christians in Russia were not able to receive Holy Communion or the other Holy Mysteries for decades. This is why it is so important to pray unceasingly that we may have the grace to persevere.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,476


« Reply #150 on: February 07, 2013, 04:30:43 AM »

"Greco-Russian" is how the Eastern Orthodox Church was distinguished from other faith-confessions, back in the day. It just means the faith of the Greek Orthodox and the Russian Orthodox, which includes all the other Chalcedonian Orthodox.

Really? I know the term "Greek Church" or "Greek faith" was commonly used back then but never heard about that "Greco-Russian" chimere. Can you list some documents it was used in?
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 30,202


that is not the teaching of...


« Reply #151 on: February 07, 2013, 04:34:32 AM »

I admit it's not seen often, but as to who/where, Met. Kallistos mentions it for one, but doesn't like it much...
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 04:35:20 AM by Asteriktos » Logged
thethinker
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 73



« Reply #152 on: February 07, 2013, 04:41:08 AM »

Paul didn't say anything about a lot of stuff. Wink

Then we have the liberty of conscience to observe the eucharist without another man's permission.
If you're sola scriptura, sure. Shocked

Any teaching that is in addition to the scripture would be the "doctrines and commandments of men."
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,476


« Reply #153 on: February 07, 2013, 04:45:20 AM »

I admit it's not seen often, but as to who/where, Met. Kallistos mentions it for one, but doesn't like it much...

Still no proof it was used in the past.
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 30,202


that is not the teaching of...


« Reply #154 on: February 07, 2013, 04:46:17 AM »

The Orthodox Church wasn't published in the past? Interesting!
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 30,202


that is not the teaching of...


« Reply #155 on: February 07, 2013, 04:48:27 AM »

Behold!
Logged
thethinker
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 73



« Reply #156 on: February 07, 2013, 04:55:58 AM »

And, St. Paul also said, many who deemed themselves worthy and communed got sick and died precisely because they were incorrect in their assumption.

This does not cancel out the new covenant principle of conscience. Our consciences are free in Christ to make false assumptions.

I will put my laws in their minds and write them in their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother; saying, 'Know the Lord,' for ALL shall know me, from the LEAST of them to the greatest of them."

It appears as if we are all EQUAL in this dispensation. I may take the eucharist if I please and when I please even if it be to my own condemnation.
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,476


« Reply #157 on: February 07, 2013, 04:56:48 AM »


Hapgood's Euchologion and one parish' name from the late XIX century. Does not prove it's a historical term (unless for Fr. Aidan late XIX century is historical).
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 30,202


that is not the teaching of...


« Reply #158 on: February 07, 2013, 04:58:07 AM »

Google doesn't lie!
Logged
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Moderated
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,443


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #159 on: February 07, 2013, 06:29:38 AM »


It appears as if we are all EQUAL in this dispensation. I may take the eucharist if I please and when I please even if it be to my own condemnation.

thethinker, have you ever read the Orthodox pre-communion prayers, which prospective communicants are expected to pray before receiving? They are stuffed full of scripture, and easily put the lie to the nonsense you have just posted.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 06:30:22 AM by LBK » Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #160 on: February 07, 2013, 08:45:41 AM »

When is it ok for Orthodox to receive communion, or confession for that matter, from a Catholic priest?

When he wills to make an apostasy.
To ensure I understand you, let’s say a U.S. Army soldier gets an 18 month deployment to Afghanistan and there are no Orthodox priests available, he just suffers the entire 18 months?  No confession, not communion, nothing?

He also isn't allowed to make use of whores because he can't see his wife.
I am a simple man.  While I understood every explanation provided for me (which I appreciate everyone who responded, thank you!), this made sense in a way my mind says, “Oh, no kidding!” 

Again, thanks everyone!  I enjoy learning about Orthodoxy!
Logged
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #161 on: February 07, 2013, 09:01:10 AM »

Paul didn't say anything about a lot of stuff. Wink

Then we have the liberty of conscience to observe the eucharist without another man's permission.
If you're sola scriptura, sure. Shocked

Any teaching that is in addition to the scripture would be the "doctrines and commandments of men."
Even the teachings of Jesus not written down in scripture (John 21:25)?
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #162 on: February 07, 2013, 10:35:50 AM »

I may take the eucharist if I please and when I please even if it be to my own condemnation.

Aside from the fact that Communion is a communal act (not a pun, the two words just have the same etymology), which you are completely ignoring, where Paul writes that all things are lawful for him, he also writes that not all things are beneficial, and the Eucharist can be taken to condemnation. It is the priest's job to ensure that the Eucharist is beneficial for us and not to our condemnation.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,234


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #163 on: February 07, 2013, 10:42:05 AM »


Hapgood's Euchologion and one parish' name from the late XIX century. Does not prove it's a historical term (unless for Fr. Aidan late XIX century is historical).

Why does this even matter so much?

Anything that happened before today can be considered historical.  History, I believe, refers to those things that occurred in the past.  But, I could be wrong.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 10:44:05 AM by J Michael » Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,234


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #164 on: February 07, 2013, 10:52:39 AM »

The question of what one should do when one sees others doing wrong, is complex.

Time to consult one's spiritual father, not judge, and pray for light and grace for everyone.

^ This is the kind of statement that makes me thank God for priests, Orthodox and Catholic.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
Nephi
Monster Tamer
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Online Online

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Byzantine
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,688



« Reply #165 on: February 07, 2013, 10:59:17 AM »

Any teaching that is in addition to the scripture would be the "doctrines and commandments of men."
Is your teaching that "any teaching that is in addition to the scripture would be the 'doctrines and commandments of men'" also a commandment of men? Wink

Does St. Paul ever say anywhere to not give communion to non-Christians?
Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #166 on: February 07, 2013, 12:25:50 PM »

Is there anything someone is supposed to do when they know a priest or bishop whose jurisdiction they are under either implicitly or explicitly allows intercommunion? Obviously the practice is wrong but if the hierarch allows it what can one do? BTW this is a hypothetical scenario.

One could make a fuss, but nothing may be done. God knows what is going on and he will see to it. Read Ezekiel 8 and 9.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #167 on: February 07, 2013, 12:31:09 PM »

And, St. Paul also said, many who deemed themselves worthy and communed got sick and died precisely because they were incorrect in their assumption.

This does not cancel out the new covenant principle of conscience. Our consciences are free in Christ to make false assumptions.

I will put my laws in their minds and write them in their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother; saying, 'Know the Lord,' for ALL shall know me, from the LEAST of them to the greatest of them."

It appears as if we are all EQUAL in this dispensation. I may take the eucharist if I please and when I please even if it be to my own condemnation.

The real Eucharist or that of the heterodox?
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
thethinker
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 73



« Reply #168 on: February 07, 2013, 01:01:12 PM »

I may take the eucharist if I please and when I please even if it be to my own condemnation.

Aside from the fact that Communion is a communal act (not a pun, the two words just have the same etymology), which you are completely ignoring, where Paul writes that all things are lawful for him, he also writes that not all things are beneficial, and the Eucharist can be taken to condemnation.

If the Eucharist is necessarily communal in the sense you say, then why did Paul say that a man could partake at home by himself (1 Cor. 11:34)?

Quote
It is the priest's job to ensure that the Eucharist is beneficial for us and not to our condemnation.

I couldn't disagree more. First, all believers were priests in Apostolic times. The Orthodox Church claims to be Apostolic. Second, the oversight of a priest suggests that God still deals with His people as with children. But Hebrews 8 is very clear that God no longer leads His people "by the hand." He treats His people as adults now. Adults are free to fail.
 please do not attempt to preach protestantism here on this board.  This is the Orthodox-Catholic board.  Find the proper board.
Two weeks post moderation.  This is not the place to argue against orthodoxy and attempt to convert people to your religion.  This is the Orthodox-Catholic forum.  -username! orthodox-catholic section moderator.
Logged
Nephi
Monster Tamer
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Online Online

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Byzantine
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,688



« Reply #169 on: February 07, 2013, 01:07:54 PM »

I couldn't disagree more. First, all believers were priests in Apostolic times. The Orthodox Church claims to be Apostolic. Second, the oversight of a priest suggests that God still deals with His people as with children. But Hebrews 8 is very clear that God no longer leads His people "by the hand." He treats His people as adults now. Adults are free to fail.
I think "priest" is being equivocated here.
Logged
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #170 on: February 07, 2013, 02:25:04 PM »

If the Eucharist is necessarily communal in the sense you say, then why did Paul say that a man could partake at home by himself (1 Cor. 11:34)?

Ver. 34. “And if any man is hungry, let him eat at home.”
By permitting, he hinders it, and more strongly than by an absolute prohibition. For he brings him out of the church and sends him to his house, hereby severely reprimanding and ridiculing them, as slaves to the belly and unable to contain themselves. For he said not, “if any despise the poor,” but, “if any hunger,” discoursing as with impatient children; as with brute beasts which are slaves to appetite. Since it would be indeed very ridiculous, if, because they were hungry they were to eat at home.

Yet he was not content with this, but added also another more fearful thing, saying, “that your coming together be not unto judgment:” that ye come not unto chastisement, unto punishment, insulting the Church, dishonoring your brother. “For for this cause ye come together,” saith he, “that ye may love one another, that ye may profit and be profited. But if the contrary happen, it were better for you to feed yourselves at home.”

This, however, he said, that he might attract them to him the more. Yea, this was the very purpose both of his pointing out the injury that would arise from hence, and of his saying that condemnation was no trifling one, and terrifying them in every way, by the Mysteries, by the sick, by those that had died, by the other things before mentioned.

Quote
First, all believers were priests in Apostolic times.

Not all believers were presbyters and bishops who led the community and presided over the liturgy.

Quote
Second, the oversight of a priest suggests that God still deals with His people as with children. But Hebrews 8 is very clear that God no longer leads His people "by the hand." He treats His people as adults now. Adults are free to fail.

The word "bishop" (episcopos) literally means "overseer".

1Tim 4:14,16
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Titus 1:5
For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

1Pet 5:1-2
The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Acts 20:17,28
And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
thethinker
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 73



« Reply #171 on: February 07, 2013, 08:09:21 PM »

Not all believers were presbyters and bishops who led the community and presided over the liturgy.

This was true during the interim period between the old and new covenants and is NOT applicable today. It must be remembered that the first generation saints lived in the eclipse of the two covenants.

Quote
The word "bishop" (episcopos) literally means "overseer".

1Tim 4:14,16
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Titus 1:5
For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

1Pet 5:1-2
The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Acts 20:17,28
And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

These scriptures also are NOT applicable today. The saints of the apostolic age lived BEFORE the new covenant was ratified when God was still dealing with His people as with children. The new covenant principle is that God no more leads us "by the hand" and that no man teaches us (Hebrews 8:7-13). Note that verse 13 indicates that the old covenant was still passing away in their time. Paul had also indicated that the old covenant was "passing away" (2 Corinthians 3:4-11). Now that the old has fully passed God deals with us as adults. This means that we live according to conscience.
 This is the Orthodox-Catholic forum.  Not the Orthodox-Other forum.  Please refrain in the future from preaching and attempting to evangelize on this specific board. -username! orthodox-catholic section moderator.  You are warned for a week. 
Logged
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #172 on: February 07, 2013, 08:20:26 PM »

Not all believers were presbyters and bishops who led the community and presided over the liturgy.

This was true during the interim period between the old and new covenants and is NOT applicable today. It must be remembered that the first generation saints lived in the eclipse of the two covenants.

Quote
The word "bishop" (episcopos) literally means "overseer".

1Tim 4:14,16
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Titus 1:5
For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

1Pet 5:1-2
The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Acts 20:17,28
And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

These scriptures also are NOT applicable today. The saints of the apostolic age lived BEFORE the new covenant was ratified when God was still dealing with His people as with children. The new covenant principle is that God no more leads us "by the hand" and that no man teaches us (Hebrews 8:7-13). Note that verse 13 indicates that the old covenant was still passing away in their time. Paul had also indicated that the old covenant was "passing away" (2 Corinthians 3:4-11). Now that the old has fully passed God deals with us as adults. This means that we live according to conscience.

All believers are priests but not in the same sense.  Not all are presiders over the Liturgy who leads the people.  God is a God of order and a certain order must be established during Liturgy.  Not everyone can come up.  Definitely the presence and the "Amen" of the people is required for the bread and wine to become the Eucharist, but not everyone has the right to be up at the altar table presiding.

And sure, no man teaches us today.  The priests and bishops are not teaching us anything new, but rather handing down the tradition that was handed to them.  All these came from Jesus Christ who is no mere man, he is the God-man, fully God, fully man.  So the bishops are not teachers in the sense that they come up with their own teaching.  Rather they are those who safeguard the traditions and hand them down to us faithfully as they have received them.
Logged
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,626



« Reply #173 on: February 07, 2013, 08:41:29 PM »

Not all believers were presbyters and bishops who led the community and presided over the liturgy.

This was true during the interim period between the old and new covenants and is NOT applicable today. It must be remembered that the first generation saints lived in the eclipse of the two covenants.

Quote
The word "bishop" (episcopos) literally means "overseer".

1Tim 4:14,16
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Titus 1:5
For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

1Pet 5:1-2
The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Acts 20:17,28
And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

These scriptures also are NOT applicable today. The saints of the apostolic age lived BEFORE the new covenant was ratified when God was still dealing with His people as with children. The new covenant principle is that God no more leads us "by the hand" and that no man teaches us (Hebrews 8:7-13). Note that verse 13 indicates that the old covenant was still passing away in their time. Paul had also indicated that the old covenant was "passing away" (2 Corinthians 3:4-11). Now that the old has fully passed God deals with us as adults. This means that we live according to conscience.

Where do the Holy Scriptures teach of such a thing as a special transitional period which will cease?
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #174 on: February 07, 2013, 09:14:34 PM »

This... is NOT applicable today.

...

These scriptures also are NOT applicable today.

Interesting coming from someone who holds to sola scriptura.

Quote
The saints of the apostolic age lived BEFORE the new covenant was ratified

When was the New covenant ratified?

Since you have admitted the historical appointment of bishops and presbyters in the New Testament, when did the Church historically stop appointing bishops and presbyters?
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Fr.Aidan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Russian Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
Posts: 503


Ds. superbis resistit; humilibus autem dat gratiam


WWW
« Reply #175 on: February 07, 2013, 09:18:37 PM »

It is established that Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, in his well-known book "The Orthodox Church," documents the usage (much more prevalent a hundred years ago) of calling the Orthodox Church the "Greco-Russian Church." It is established that Isabel Hapgood's best known book regarding Orthodoxy is entitled, "Service Book of the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Apostolic (Greco-Russian) Church." (That came out in 1906.) I don't think there's an Orthodox priest in this country, who hasn't used that book to conduct one service or another. A quick internetz search shows that Orthodox cemeteries in America in the 1880s to early 1900s period were titled "Greco-Russian" cemeteries, and that the original proper name of St. Demetrios Greek Orthodox Church in Seattle was, back in 1898, "Greco-Russian Orthodox Church of St. Spiridon." Vladimir Soloviev (+1900) was a Russian Orthodox layman who was very sympathetic to the Papacy, so a sort of favored son of Eastern Catholics. He wrote of his canonical church allegiance that he was "a member of the true and venerable Eastern or Greco-Russian Orthodox church," (canonical Russian Orthodox Church).

It was not only the Eastern Orthodox who used to commonly refer to themselves as the "Greco-Russian" Orthodox. The Roman Catholic church also used this title for us. Fr. Heinrich Joseph Dominicus Denzinger (+1883), in his still-popular work, "Sources of Catholic Dogma," includes a Profession of Faith for the "Greco-Russian Church" to come into union with Rome. Also, Fr. Karl Rahner (1904-1984), Jesuit scholar, used this term of "Greco-Russian Church" in his "Encyclopedia of Theology." It first appeared in 1975.

In the book "Sketches of the Rites and Customs of the Greco-Russian Church," by H. Romanoff, we read that the term Greco-Russian is used in an official church service (he is describing the reception into Orthodoxy of Princess Dagmar of Denmark): The Metropolitan says, "Rise and stand firm; stand in fear." She rises and says, "This true Orthodox Greco-Russian Faith, which I now, of my own free will, confess and sincerely hold, I will confess and hold with the help of God... to my latest [sic] breath..." This book came out in 1868. It also says, "The bride of a Russian Grand Duke must be a member of the Greco-Russian Church."

"On this occasion too [reception of a convert into the Orthodox Church], if the person do not bear a name which is strictly Russian--that is, one borne by a saint that is acknowledged by the Greco-Russian Church--he receives a new one."

St. Philaret, metropolitan of Moscow (+1867), was a gigantic figure in the 19th century in the world's largest Orthodox national church. He wrote a catechism entitled, "Christian Catechism of the Orthodox Catholic Eastern Greco-Russian Church," which is still pretty popular. It came out in 1823.

More recently, in 1995, Holy Trinity-St. Sergius Lavra published a hardcover by P.V. Kalitin. The title of this Russian-language book is, in English, "Historical Dictionary of Russian Clergy Authors of the Greco-Russian Church." So I don't suppose the usage has ever fully died out.

Quid autem multa?

Michal, can you explain for us why you described my use of the words "Greco-Russian" as a "chimere"? Thanks in advance!
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 09:19:58 PM by Fr.Aidan » Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,476


« Reply #176 on: February 07, 2013, 09:27:18 PM »

I stand corrected. I thought you went further in the past (I had XVIIth century in mind for example).

Quote
Michal, can you explain for us why you described my use of the words "Greco-Russian" as a "chimere"? Thanks in advance!

I don't like such linguistic conglomerates.
Logged
Fr.Aidan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Russian Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
Posts: 503


Ds. superbis resistit; humilibus autem dat gratiam


WWW
« Reply #177 on: February 07, 2013, 09:41:20 PM »

Oh, that makes much more sense than "a loose sleeveless robe worn by Anglican bishops over the rochet"!

Actually, I learned that while I thought the term "Greco-Russian Church" was more or less "archaic" since the early 1900s, it seems to be alive and kicking in the 21st century...
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 09:46:20 PM by Fr.Aidan » Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,664


WWW
« Reply #178 on: February 08, 2013, 12:01:04 AM »

It appears as if we are all EQUAL in this dispensation. I may take the eucharist if I please and when I please even if it be to my own condemnation.

You're saying that all eucharists are the same.  They're not.  This confusion causes mixed Orthodox-<Other Christian> couples to commune in either church because they believe that God is everywhere.  The Orthodox practice closed communion for a reason.  I refer you to the following post:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,48786.msg854163.html#msg854163
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,664


WWW
« Reply #179 on: February 08, 2013, 12:06:57 AM »

The saints of the apostolic age lived BEFORE the new covenant was ratified

When was the new covenant ratified?  Was it in my lifetime?

when God was still dealing with His people as with children. The new covenant principle is that God no more leads us "by the hand" and that no man teaches us (Hebrews 8:7-13). Note that verse 13 indicates that the old covenant was still passing away in their time. Paul had also indicated that the old covenant was "passing away" (2 Corinthians 3:4-11). Now that the old has fully passed God deals with us as adults. This means that we live according to conscience.

What is conscience?

Quote
> # 1801: Conscience can remain in ignorance or make erroneous judgements, such ignorance and errors are not always free of guilt.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,6065.0.html

For the quote: http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/moral.html
Logged
NicholasMyra
Avowed denominationalist
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 6,065


When in doubt, say: "you lack the proper φρόνημα"


« Reply #180 on: February 08, 2013, 03:18:04 AM »

These scriptures also are NOT applicable today. The saints of the apostolic age lived BEFORE the new covenant was ratified when God was still dealing with His people as with children. The new covenant principle is that God no more leads us "by the hand" and that no man teaches us (Hebrews 8:7-13).
If you believe that we are no longer taught through men in any sense, then through whom were you taught? Did you hear the name Jesus Christ and the Gospel in a divine vision?

If the Eucharist is necessarily communal in the sense you say, then why did Paul say that a man could partake at home by himself (1 Cor. 11:34)?
He didn't, in context the passage is saying, "go fill up on bread and wine at your own home if you're hungry instead of hogging the Eucharistic gifts."
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 03:29:13 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,170



« Reply #181 on: February 08, 2013, 09:24:24 AM »

These scriptures also are NOT applicable today. The saints of the apostolic age lived BEFORE the new covenant was ratified when God was still dealing with His people as with children. The new covenant principle is that God no more leads us "by the hand" and that no man teaches us (Hebrews 8:7-13). Note that verse 13 indicates that the old covenant was still passing away in their time. Paul had also indicated that the old covenant was "passing away" (2 Corinthians 3:4-11). Now that the old has fully passed God deals with us as adults. This means that we live according to conscience.

Right on Brother!

We're at the dawning of the Age of Aquarius.

\end{sarcasm}
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,170



« Reply #182 on: February 08, 2013, 09:25:00 AM »

If you believe that we are no longer taught through men in any sense, then through whom were you taught?
Nuns.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
thethinker
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 73



« Reply #183 on: February 08, 2013, 06:53:14 PM »

thethinker asserted:

These scriptures also are NOT applicable today. The saints of the apostolic age lived BEFORE the new covenant was ratified when God was still dealing with His people as with children. The new covenant principle is that God no more leads us "by the hand" and that no man teaches us (Hebrews 8:7-13). Note that verse 13 indicates that the old covenant was still passing away in their time. Paul had also indicated that the old covenant was "passing away" (2 Corinthians 3:4-11). Now that the old has fully passed God deals with us as adults. This means that we live according to conscience.
 

Cavaradossi asked:

Where do the Holy Scriptures teach of such a thing as a special transitional period which will cease?
 

Paul claimed that he and the apostolic company were the "stewards of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the spirit; for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life" (2 Corinthians 3:5). Then in verse 11 he said that the old "is passing away" (not has passed away).

In Romans he likened the old covenant (oc) to the night and the new covenant (nc) to the day saying, "The night (oc) is far spent, the day (nc) is at hand...."

The first saints lived in the transitional period between the old and new covenants.
 
Logged
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #184 on: February 08, 2013, 07:01:47 PM »

thethinker asserted:

These scriptures also are NOT applicable today. The saints of the apostolic age lived BEFORE the new covenant was ratified when God was still dealing with His people as with children. The new covenant principle is that God no more leads us "by the hand" and that no man teaches us (Hebrews 8:7-13). Note that verse 13 indicates that the old covenant was still passing away in their time. Paul had also indicated that the old covenant was "passing away" (2 Corinthians 3:4-11). Now that the old has fully passed God deals with us as adults. This means that we live according to conscience.
 

Cavaradossi asked:

Where do the Holy Scriptures teach of such a thing as a special transitional period which will cease?
 

Paul claimed that he and the apostolic company were the "stewards of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the spirit; for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life" (2 Corinthians 3:5). Then in verse 11 he said that the old "is passing away" (not has passed away).

In Romans he likened the old covenant (oc) to the night and the new covenant (nc) to the day saying, "The night (oc) is far spent, the day (nc) is at hand...."

The first saints lived in the transitional period between the old and new covenants.
 

And who says the transitional period is done?
Logged
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #185 on: February 08, 2013, 07:02:17 PM »

If you believe that we are no longer taught through men in any sense, then through whom were you taught?
Nuns.

*slow clap*
Logged
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #186 on: February 08, 2013, 09:33:11 PM »

So, when in history did the Church stop being governed by bishops and presbyters?
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
thethinker
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 73



« Reply #187 on: February 08, 2013, 11:18:23 PM »

So, when in history did the Church stop being governed by bishops and presbyters?

I will have to start a thread in the proper forum. I received a warning for posting my views here. I did this in ignorance.

I will answer your question after the weekend.
Logged
JoeS2
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic by choice
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,156


St. Mark Defender of the true Faith (old CAF guy)


« Reply #188 on: February 25, 2013, 10:01:09 PM »

A properly educated catholic would know better than to commune at an Orthodox Church.   


Most if not all Orthodox priests WILL question you as you approach the cup whether or not you are Orthodox IF he doesn't know you.  I've held the Communion cloth on many occasions and our priest will stop and question whether the person is Orthodox, what parish, when was their last confession, and did they fast properly.  Otherwise, he will politely ask the person to just kiss the Chalice and if that person would mind waiting until the end of Liturgy for a conference with Father on our Orthodox practice...........And this is done 'religiously'
Logged
bergschlawiner
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 235

Sarisan


« Reply #189 on: February 26, 2013, 02:40:35 AM »

Hope it has not already been mentioned buried somewhere in this thread, but in the last days of Communism the Moscow Patriarch allowed Roman Catholics, usually from the Baltic Republics who were isolated elsewhere in the USSR, to receive the Eucharist in Orthodox churches.
Logged
Fr.Aidan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Russian Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
Posts: 503


Ds. superbis resistit; humilibus autem dat gratiam


WWW
« Reply #190 on: February 28, 2013, 10:27:53 PM »

The Moscow Patriarchate later rescinded this open communion policy when drawing closer to the ROCOR "stance." Now it is even forbidden by the Patriarchate to so much as pray together with Catholics.

I am trying to be informative about these things and not to become polemical. I hope I am succeeding in y'all's eyes. I'm not trying to enter into any topic deeply, and in fact I probably don't have time for Deep.

With respect,
Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.561 seconds with 219 queries.