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Author Topic: Convert Priests in ethnic parishes  (Read 1022 times) Average Rating: 0
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cossack 316
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« on: January 24, 2013, 11:25:06 AM »

I must admit I am curious about convert priests and am curious as to what leads them to specific ethnic jurisdictions. For example what leads a former American Southern Baptist to join a Ukrainian or Serbian parish rather than an OCA parish where OCA is more "American"? Or a former American Presbyterian priest for 20 years then all of a sudden he is serving in a Bulgarian parish rather than OCA. I ask this because with more and more of a drive towards American Orthodoxy and less ethnic parishes, what drives converts priests to ethic jurisdictions rather than more American ones like OCA, ACROD, or the Antiochan?
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« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2013, 11:30:07 AM »


Perhaps they have roots in that particular ethnicity....or maybe they simply like it more than the others.

Each ethnicity brings with it different traditions and styles.  Perhaps these individuals are drawn to a particular style, or love a certain culture's traditions.
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« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2013, 11:32:42 AM »

I must admit I am curious about convert priests and am curious as to what leads them to specific ethnic jurisdictions. For example what leads a former American Southern Baptist to join a Ukrainian or Serbian parish rather than an OCA parish where OCA is more "American"? Or a former American Presbyterian priest for 20 years then all of a sudden he is serving in a Bulgarian parish rather than OCA. I ask this because with more and more of a drive towards American Orthodoxy and less ethnic parishes, what drives converts priests to ethic jurisdictions rather than more American ones like OCA, ACROD, or the Antiochan?

Location? Wanting to stay with the local church they were received into? Maybe even marriage (he's not a convert but I was recently at the ordination of an ethnic Greek as a priest in our church - he's married to a Romanian). I'd have thought being a priest in an ethnic parish comes about for many of the same reasons as being a lay convert in an ethnic parish does. Were I to become a priest (hypothetically, I've no plans to) it would certainly be in a Romanian parish - for all of the reasons above, plus some.

James
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« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2013, 11:39:22 AM »

Bishop sends?
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« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2013, 11:44:48 AM »

Bishop sends?

Bingo!

I really feel for convert priests sometimes. Too often have I known of situations that were truly unfortunate.

And I really respect convert clergy in mission parishes. I'm sure situations really cannot be pigeon-holed though.
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« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2013, 11:49:31 AM »

I understand a bishop would send, my question is why would an American Orthodox convert priest join an ethnic jurisdiction rather than an American one. For example, say convert priest A) is a former presbyterian American who speaks no foreign languages other than maybe Spanish. This priest after being a Presbyterian for 20 years all of a sudden converts to Orthodoxy. God Bless him to his conversion and finding the light. However, rather than joining the OCA or ACROD or Antiochan jurisdictions where liturgy is done in English, he joins an ethnic jurisdiction like say oh Romanian or Ukrainian where liturgy and ethnic traditions are still very language based. (FYI there are certain priests I am thinking of but I refuses to name names). I can understand if the priests wife were say from that ethnic tradition and he knew some of the customs, but for someone with no background in that ethnicity, what is it? Do they like the Romanian chants more than say the Russian? Is it the Icons style? Father Harry from FL, maybe you can shed some light on the subject.
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« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2013, 12:10:11 PM »

American one? Have you one in mind? Any, actually.
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« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2013, 12:10:19 PM »

Cossack,

I can't speak for other jurisdictions but I think in general the movement of certain ethnic jurisdictions in the US and Canada is to become more "American" and less ethnic. Obviously there are parishes that in the US are still very ethnic. For example in the UOCUSA there are still some parishes that use Ukrainian exclusively and as a result have priests that are native to Ukraine or at least fluent in Ukrainian. However in the UOCUSA there have been parish closings and I think their bishops have been making a concentrated effort to expand there flock beyond simply Ukrainian. There are Mission parishes that are catering to Pan-Orthodoxy rather then just Ukrainian. The reason for this is simple, the numbers are shrinking and for the UOCUSA to survive the next 100 years and beyond, there needs to be concrete movement into Pan-American Orthodoxy. There will always be ethnic parishes with ethnic priests, but I think the long term goal is to become more American and what better way than with American convert priests?
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« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2013, 12:11:38 PM »

Bishop sends?

Bingo!

I really feel for convert priests sometimes. Too often have I known of situations that were truly unfortunate.

And I really respect convert clergy in mission parishes. I'm sure situations really cannot be pigeon-holed though.

Exactly!
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« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2013, 12:14:21 PM »

OCA, is American hence Orthodox Church of America aka the 2nd largest jurisdiction in the US after the EP
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« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2013, 12:15:44 PM »


So, are you saying that all convert priests should join the OCA?
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« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2013, 12:18:17 PM »

I'm not saying that, Im asking what drives a non ethnic American convert priest to join an ethnic jurisdiction rather than a non ethnic jurisdiction. It makes no sense to me.
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« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2013, 12:22:25 PM »

FYI American convert priests are plentiful in the OCA, yet rare in Romanian and Bulgarian and Serbian jurisdictions. It seems to be rising in the Ukrainian Church and I am curious why in the Ukrainian one and not in the other ethnic jurisdictions. For example in Canada, the UOCC's priests are almost 100% of Ukrainian background. Yet in the UOCUSA there are more and more convert non Ukrainian priests. Why? Why would someone who is not Ukrainian and can not speak the language or appreciate the customs join the Ukrainian Orthodox Church when there are jurisdiction out there like the OCA and ACROD that have little ethnic traditions and are more "American"
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« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2013, 12:25:57 PM »

OCA, is American hence Orthodox Church of America aka the 2nd largest jurisdiction in the US after the EP

And the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek catholic Diocese of the USA also has American in its name but is as ethnic in most parishes as many OCA are. Your point, again?
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« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2013, 12:27:35 PM »

So, the real issue you are having is specifically with the UOCofUSA.

Why don't you just ask them?  I know you have someone specific in mind.  Why don't you just ask this priest why he joined the UOCofUSA instead of the OCA?  I'm sure he'll be able to give you a better answer, than all of us guessing.

As long as those parishes remain ethnic, that the Ukrainian language is used for the parishes that are majority "ethnic", I don't see the problem.

Unless this new convert priest does something blatantly against the ethnicity of the parish...what's the problem?

Unfortunately, most second and third generation parishes, no longer have the language issue, as most speak only English.  Therefore, as long as the priest is a devout Orthodox, and serves the Church honestly, with love and integrity, and doesn't teach against the ethnic roots of the parish, where's the harm?

In fact, it's kind of an honor to have non-ethnic, love an ethnicity so much, that they CHOOSE to join it.

If there are not enough Ukrainian priests to go around, would it be better to simply close that parish and call it quits?  Or is it better to have an English speaking parish?

After all, the goal of the Orthodox Church is in fact to save souls, regardless what language the body housing that soul speaks.


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« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2013, 12:29:33 PM »

ACROD IS NOT as ethnic as other jurisdictions. How many ACROD parishes conduct the liturgy in Rusyn? How many priests can speak Rusyn fluently. What percentage of ACROD parisioners are nor Rusyn? How about the new Rusyn Bishop? He is Greek not Rusyn (that doesnt make him a bad bishop, I'm not speaking negatively here, i'm just stating facts. ACROD is not nearly as ethnic a jurisdiction as say Bulagarian or Romanian or Serbian or Georgian. Am I wrong?
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« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2013, 12:31:42 PM »


Unfortunately, most second and third generation parishes, no longer have the language issue, as most speak only English.  Therefore, as long as the priest is a devout Orthodox, and serves the Church honestly, with love and integrity, and doesn't teach against the ethnic roots of the parish, where's the harm?

In fact, it's kind of an honor to have non-ethnic, love an ethnicity so much, that they CHOOSE to join it.

If there are not enough Ukrainian priests to go around, would it be better to simply close that parish and call it quits?  Or is it better to have an English speaking parish?

After all, the goal of the Orthodox Church is in fact to save souls, regardless what language the body housing that soul speaks.







[/quote]




My point exactly, what is that they love about the ethnicity so much? Why is it only in the Ukrainian church we see so many convert priests and not other ethic jurisdictions in the US?


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« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2013, 12:36:57 PM »

ACROD IS NOT as ethnic as other jurisdictions. How many ACROD parishes conduct the liturgy in Rusyn? How many priests can speak Rusyn fluently. What percentage of ACROD parisioners are nor Rusyn? How about the new Rusyn Bishop? He is Greek not Rusyn (that doesnt make him a bad bishop, I'm not speaking negatively here, i'm just stating facts. ACROD is not nearly as ethnic a jurisdiction as say Bulagarian or Romanian or Serbian or Georgian. Am I wrong?

In a word, immigration. The typical immigrant church pattern in the US is for the first generation to re-create its memories of the "old country." Second and third generations assimilate, become "American," for better or worse, depending on your point of view. It's happened to every immigrant group - the Lutherans, the Roman Catholics and now the Orthodox. It's simply a normal pattern. That's why it doesn't make any difference to get all worked up about language and cultural traditions - the Church is the Body of Christ, not an ethnic museum. Time will resolve all the language and cultural issues - again, for better or worse, depending on your point of view.
(Just a teeny point here also, I know that "ethnic" is used as a kind of shorthand, but "American" parishes also have their own culture and traditions. Just because it may not look like the culture and traditions in the "old country" doesn't mean it doesn't exist.)
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« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2013, 12:37:42 PM »

As I tried to say, surely the question is really why convert in an ethnic parish, not why become a priest in one? I can't imagine switching from one jurisdiction to another simply in order to be ordained. I have many reasons for being a member of the Romanian Church rather than the Greek, Russian or whatever. Those wouldn't change were I to be ordained and so in that case I'd remain in the Romanian Church, which would almost certainly see me serving in a mainly ethnic parish. Are you saying that you'd expect a non-ethnic convert in an ethnic jurisdiction to switch if they wished to be ordained? That seems pretty unlikely to happen to me.

James
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« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2013, 12:49:57 PM »

As I tried to say, surely the question is really why convert in an ethnic parish, not why become a priest in one? I can't imagine switching from one jurisdiction to another simply in order to be ordained. I have many reasons for being a member of the Romanian Church rather than the Greek, Russian or whatever. Those wouldn't change were I to be ordained and so in that case I'd remain in the Romanian Church, which would almost certainly see me serving in a mainly ethnic parish. Are you saying that you'd expect a non-ethnic convert in an ethnic jurisdiction to switch if they wished to be ordained? That seems pretty unlikely to happen to me.

James


Not quite, more like a priest in a Protestant denomination decides he wants to be Orthodox. Ok so he is sitting there trying to decide which jurisdiction he would like to become a priest for. This Protestant priest is deciding what jurisdiction to go to seminary to. My point as an American with no ethnic ties to any of the Ethnic jurisdiction in the US, why would he join an ethnic jurisdiction rather than a jurisdiction that does not place an ethnic emphasis in their parishes like the OCA or Antiochan or ACROD. I looked at the lists of the Romanian, Bulgarian, and Serbian Orthodox Churches and looking at their clergy listing they are almost 100% belonging to that particular ethnicity. Same goes for the UOCC in Canada. Yet in the UOCUSA there are more and more. Why do these convert priests join the UOCUSA and not Bulgarian or Romanian or Serbian or Georgian? It can't be because they are ethnically Ukrainian. So what is it that drives them? I think this is a very logical question
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« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2013, 12:54:47 PM »

I think this is a very logical question

Obsession.
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« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2013, 12:56:22 PM »

I think this is a very logical question

Obsession.

How is that?
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« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2013, 12:58:02 PM »

At a guess, the converts have friends or met the priest or that's the only or nearest Orthodox church. They visited and loved the people and the parish.
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« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2013, 12:58:51 PM »

As I tried to say, surely the question is really why convert in an ethnic parish, not why become a priest in one? I can't imagine switching from one jurisdiction to another simply in order to be ordained. I have many reasons for being a member of the Romanian Church rather than the Greek, Russian or whatever. Those wouldn't change were I to be ordained and so in that case I'd remain in the Romanian Church, which would almost certainly see me serving in a mainly ethnic parish. Are you saying that you'd expect a non-ethnic convert in an ethnic jurisdiction to switch if they wished to be ordained? That seems pretty unlikely to happen to me.

James


Not quite, more like a priest in a Protestant denomination decides he wants to be Orthodox. Ok so he is sitting there trying to decide which jurisdiction he would like to become a priest for. This Protestant priest is deciding what jurisdiction to go to seminary to. My point as an American with no ethnic ties to any of the Ethnic jurisdiction in the US, why would he join an ethnic jurisdiction rather than a jurisdiction that does not place an ethnic emphasis in their parishes like the OCA or Antiochan or ACROD. I looked at the lists of the Romanian, Bulgarian, and Serbian Orthodox Churches and looking at their clergy listing they are almost 100% belonging to that particular ethnicity. Same goes for the UOCC in Canada. Yet in the UOCUSA there are more and more. Why do these convert priests join the UOCUSA and not Bulgarian or Romanian or Serbian or Georgian? It can't be because they are ethnically Ukrainian. So what is it that drives them? I think this is a very logical question

I see. Do you know of anyone in that position? I've never come across a convert who converted as a priest, so to speak. They've all converted, then practised for years and only later been ordained. Not that I've come across that many convert priests, and not that I'm saying that such a thing is impossible, but I'd be personally somewhat alarmed at the idea of a Protestant pastor going straight into the Orthodox priesthood and that has absolutely nothing to do with any ethnicity. I have heard of some Protestant ministers who've converted to Orthodoxy even knowing that it meant they would become laymen, however.

James
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« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2013, 01:00:12 PM »


Alleged fall of the UOC is the only one topic you discuss here.
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« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2013, 01:05:30 PM »

Not the alleged fall but rather the evolution of the UOC in the US. Being an American of Ukrainian descent and having relatives that were priests and even a relative that was a UOC bishop this is a topic close to my heart.
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« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2013, 01:10:57 PM »

ACROD IS NOT as ethnic as other jurisdictions. How many ACROD parishes conduct the liturgy in Rusyn? How many priests can speak Rusyn fluently. What percentage of ACROD parisioners are nor Rusyn? How about the new Rusyn Bishop? He is Greek not Rusyn (that doesnt make him a bad bishop, I'm not speaking negatively here, i'm just stating facts. ACROD is not nearly as ethnic a jurisdiction as say Bulagarian or Romanian or Serbian or Georgian. Am I wrong?

You missed my point entirely.
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« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2013, 01:11:33 PM »

Bishop Alexander Nowecky, ruling Bishop of Chicago of the UOCUSA from 1969-1972 was my grandfather's cousin. http://books.google.com/books?id=2JbU1d9Xil0C&pg=PA226&lpg=PA226&dq=Alexander+Nowecky&source=bl&ots=vL7djOktB2&sig=aH7sn6QyWTToAEz2dQecvP5nuSA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qmsBUd_wGMuKqQHjtoGYDA&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Alexander%20Nowecky&f=false
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« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2013, 01:19:26 PM »

As I tried to say, surely the question is really why convert in an ethnic parish, not why become a priest in one? I can't imagine switching from one jurisdiction to another simply in order to be ordained. I have many reasons for being a member of the Romanian Church rather than the Greek, Russian or whatever. Those wouldn't change were I to be ordained and so in that case I'd remain in the Romanian Church, which would almost certainly see me serving in a mainly ethnic parish. Are you saying that you'd expect a non-ethnic convert in an ethnic jurisdiction to switch if they wished to be ordained? That seems pretty unlikely to happen to me.

James


Not quite, more like a priest in a Protestant denomination decides he wants to be Orthodox. Ok so he is sitting there trying to decide which jurisdiction he would like to become a priest for. This Protestant priest is deciding what jurisdiction to go to seminary to. My point as an American with no ethnic ties to any of the Ethnic jurisdiction in the US, why would he join an ethnic jurisdiction rather than a jurisdiction that does not place an ethnic emphasis in their parishes like the OCA or Antiochan or ACROD. I looked at the lists of the Romanian, Bulgarian, and Serbian Orthodox Churches and looking at their clergy listing they are almost 100% belonging to that particular ethnicity. Same goes for the UOCC in Canada. Yet in the UOCUSA there are more and more. Why do these convert priests join the UOCUSA and not Bulgarian or Romanian or Serbian or Georgian? It can't be because they are ethnically Ukrainian. So what is it that drives them? I think this is a very logical question

I see. Do you know of anyone in that position? I've never come across a convert who converted as a priest, so to speak. They've all converted, then practised for years and only later been ordained. Not that I've come across that many convert priests, and not that I'm saying that such a thing is impossible, but I'd be personally somewhat alarmed at the idea of a Protestant pastor going straight into the Orthodox priesthood and that has absolutely nothing to do with any ethnicity. I have heard of some Protestant ministers who've converted to Orthodoxy even knowing that it meant they would become laymen, however.

James

Here is one example http://iengage.org.il/about_us_view.asp?Cat_Id=45&Cat_Type=About&Title_Cat_Name=Gabriel%20Rochelle

http://otsamerica.org/sites/otsamerica.org/files/member_cvs/VITA_0.pdf
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« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2013, 02:31:41 PM »

Cossack,

I can't speak for other jurisdictions but I think in general the movement of certain ethnic jurisdictions in the US and Canada is to become more "American" and less ethnic. ....I think the long term goal is to become more American and what better way than with American convert priests?
I am not so sure about that.
Here is a quote from the OCA about the need for their priests to have Russian language skills:
Quote
http://oca.org/reflections/fr.-john-jillions/january-23-2013


Archbishop Justinian (MP)Visits the Chancery
Archbishop Justinian visited the Chancery yesterday for lunch with
Metropolitan Tikhon and the OCA staff

We ...discussed....Of particular concern are the pastoral needs of
Russian-speaking immigrants, and preparing clergy who have the skills to work
with them. Archbishop Justinian made the point that many immigrants who may not
have been especially pious while in Russia discover God through the upheavals
of immigration. We spoke about ways that the OCA and the Russian Church might
build bridges to collaborate, especially in training of seminarians and clergy
for missionary work.

 
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« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2013, 02:33:15 PM »


Has Father Gabriel done something "anti" Ukrainian that concerns you?
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« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2013, 02:33:41 PM »

Cossack,

You might as well just face the truth, the UOCUSA is not the church of Met. Lypkivsky but rather an evolving American diocese of the EP. May they live in peace and you shouldn't waste your time trying to understand how and why things are done there. The Bishops know what they are doing, they are in charge of the church and their Metropolitan Council has demonstrated the movement to pan-orthodoxy the past 18 years. It will only continue as they move further away from Ukraine. It has been publicly stated by the Eccumenical Patriarch Bartholomew that the only he church in Ukraine he recognizes in Ukraine is the Moscow Patriarchate and he will not interfere. As a result, the UOCUSA will support the decision of her head hierarch, as  BishopAntony and Bishop Daniel answer to him. The UOCUSA is no no longer the church of Met. Mstyslav and Met Lypkivsky, but the church of The Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you will be at peace.

1/27/2013 Please use the correct titles of all hierarchs  when you post their name. Thank you Thomas Convert Issues Moderator.

1/28/2013 I was just informed by one of the other Moderators that Bishop Antony is now Metropolitan Antony. Axios ! Axios! Axios! Thomas Convert Issues Forum Moderator
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« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2013, 02:50:13 PM »


Get off your soapbox.

First, show some respect.  These men are hierarchs.  Use their proper titles.

Second, you sing the same old misguided song....be it Canada or the US.  Your disdain for the UOCOFUSA and the UOCC is well known.

Instead of bashing the UOCOFUSA, and the EP for not recognizing the KP in Ukraine, how about working towards unity among all the different Ukrainian Churches.

What's there to "recognize"?  Seriously.  We've got the KP, the UOAC, etc....in Ukraine.  Why don't they work out their differences before demanding recognition.

IIRC, Pat. Bartholomew was willing to recognize the KP if P. Filaret would step down.  He refused.  Missed the chance.

Therefore, before you go badmouthing others, look to your own leader and his shortcomings.

As for Fr. Gabriel being too American?  He is in Las Cruces, New Mexico.  How many Ukrainians there, actually speak Ukrainian?  Just curious?
Also, how many parishioners of St. Anthony of the Desert Mission are actually unhappy and complaining? 
I would wager, none....only you...who have nothing to do with that parish.

I suggest you look to your own and stop making trouble, where there is none.

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« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2013, 03:07:36 PM »

How is asking questions making trouble?
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« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2013, 03:11:43 PM »

IIRC, Pat. Bartholomew was willing to recognize the KP if P. Filaret would step down.  He refused.  Missed the chance.

Proof?

Cossack,

You might as well just face the truth, the UOCUSA is not the church of Met. Lypkivsky but rather an evolving American diocese of the EP. May they live in peace and you shouldn't waste your time trying to understand how and why things are done there. The Bishops know what they are doing, they are in charge of the church and their Metropolitan Council has demonstrated the movement to pan-orthodoxy the past 18 years. It will only continue as they move further away from Ukraine. It has been publicly stated by the Eccumenical Patriarch Bartholomew that the only he church in Ukraine he recognizes in Ukraine is the Moscow Patriarchate and he will not interfere. As a result, the UOCUSA will support the decision of her head hierarch, as Antony and Daniel answer to him. The UOCUSA is no no longer the church of Mstyslav and Lypkivsky, but the church of Bartholomew. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you will be at peace.

Is that bad?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 03:15:39 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2013, 03:27:37 PM »

I was baptised in a ROCOR parish, one of the most "ethnic" jurisdictions, and guess what? We use 95% English, and our parish is, for the most part, non ethnic. Each parish wild be different, and you convert because Orthodoxy is the truth, and the jurisdiction doesn't matter(0.
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« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2013, 03:54:51 PM »

Cossack,

I can't speak for other jurisdictions but I think in general the movement of certain ethnic jurisdictions in the US and Canada is to become more "American" and less ethnic. ....I think the long term goal is to become more American and what better way than with American convert priests?
I am not so sure about that.
Here is a quote from the OCA about the need for their priests to have Russian language skills:
Quote
http://oca.org/reflections/fr.-john-jillions/january-23-2013


Archbishop Justinian (MP)Visits the Chancery
Archbishop Justinian visited the Chancery yesterday for lunch with
Metropolitan Tikhon and the OCA staff

We ...discussed....Of particular concern are the pastoral needs of
Russian-speaking immigrants, and preparing clergy who have the skills to work
with them. Archbishop Justinian made the point that many immigrants who may not
have been especially pious while in Russia discover God through the upheavals
of immigration. We spoke about ways that the OCA and the Russian Church might
build bridges to collaborate, especially in training of seminarians and clergy
for missionary work.

 

Thanks for posting this. It reminded me of my last experience visiting nearby OCA parish in McKees Rocks, PA which is one-half block away from the local UOCUSA parish. (I do think the priest there is a member here, IIRC). It's a wonderful parish overflowing its capacity with worshipers, many recently from Russia. Yes, the liturgy was given in English, but the homily, announcements, and readings were all given in both English and Russian (and American sign). I did not object, understanding the pastoral needs. But ethnic realities were demonstrably apparent.
Contrast this with the UOCUSA parish a half block away which is always nearly empty. All services in Ukrainian.
My wife and I were warmly received in the OCA parish, and ignored (many times) in the UOC one.
Point is: one cannot paint with such broad strokes. Both here are cradle clergy, BTW.
I apologize if I offend here, but convert priests will end up eventually where they will do their best work,IMO, irrespective of jurisdiction.
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« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2013, 05:22:38 PM »

I'm not saying that, Im asking what drives a non ethnic American convert priest to join an ethnic jurisdiction rather than a non ethnic jurisdiction. It makes no sense to me.

Because he was received into the Church in that jurisdiction when he converted, before he ever became a priest maybe? That's what usually happens. We've thankfully all but abandoned ordaining converts the day after baptism and chrismation.
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« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2013, 05:28:37 PM »

Cossack,

I can't speak for other jurisdictions but I think in general the movement of certain ethnic jurisdictions in the US and Canada is to become more "American" and less ethnic. ....I think the long term goal is to become more American and what better way than with American convert priests?
I am not so sure about that.
Here is a quote from the OCA about the need for their priests to have Russian language skills:
Quote
http://oca.org/reflections/fr.-john-jillions/january-23-2013


Archbishop Justinian (MP)Visits the Chancery
Archbishop Justinian visited the Chancery yesterday for lunch with
Metropolitan Tikhon and the OCA staff

We ...discussed....Of particular concern are the pastoral needs of
Russian-speaking immigrants, and preparing clergy who have the skills to work
with them. Archbishop Justinian made the point that many immigrants who may not
have been especially pious while in Russia discover God through the upheavals
of immigration. We spoke about ways that the OCA and the Russian Church might
build bridges to collaborate, especially in training of seminarians and clergy
for missionary work.

 

Thanks for posting this. It reminded me of my last experience visiting nearby OCA parish in McKees Rocks, PA which is one-half block away from the local UOCUSA parish. (I do think the priest there is a member here, IIRC). It's a wonderful parish overflowing its capacity with worshipers, many recently from Russia. Yes, the liturgy was given in English, but the homily, announcements, and readings were all given in both English and Russian (and American sign). I did not object, understanding the pastoral needs. But ethnic realities were demonstrably apparent.
Contrast this with the UOCUSA parish a half block away which is always nearly empty. All services in Ukrainian.
My wife and I were warmly received in the OCA parish, and ignored (many times) in the UOC one.
Point is: one cannot paint with such broad strokes. Both here are cradle clergy, BTW.
I apologize if I offend here, but convert priests will end up eventually where they will do their best work,IMO, irrespective of jurisdiction.

Wow!  This surprises me.  If this is the same priest whom I think it is (Fr. T), I have rarely found a more jovial individual.  Perhaps you caught him on a bad day.
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« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2013, 06:24:02 PM »

Cossack,

I can't speak for other jurisdictions but I think in general the movement of certain ethnic jurisdictions in the US and Canada is to become more "American" and less ethnic. ....I think the long term goal is to become more American and what better way than with American convert priests?
I am not so sure about that.
Here is a quote from the OCA about the need for their priests to have Russian language skills:
Quote
http://oca.org/reflections/fr.-john-jillions/january-23-2013


Archbishop Justinian (MP)Visits the Chancery
Archbishop Justinian visited the Chancery yesterday for lunch with
Metropolitan Tikhon and the OCA staff

We ...discussed....Of particular concern are the pastoral needs of
Russian-speaking immigrants, and preparing clergy who have the skills to work
with them. Archbishop Justinian made the point that many immigrants who may not
have been especially pious while in Russia discover God through the upheavals
of immigration. We spoke about ways that the OCA and the Russian Church might
build bridges to collaborate, especially in training of seminarians and clergy
for missionary work.

 

Thanks for posting this. It reminded me of my last experience visiting nearby OCA parish in McKees Rocks, PA which is one-half block away from the local UOCUSA parish. (I do think the priest there is a member here, IIRC). It's a wonderful parish overflowing its capacity with worshipers, many recently from Russia. Yes, the liturgy was given in English, but the homily, announcements, and readings were all given in both English and Russian (and American sign). I did not object, understanding the pastoral needs. But ethnic realities were demonstrably apparent.
Contrast this with the UOCUSA parish a half block away which is always nearly empty. All services in Ukrainian.
My wife and I were warmly received in the OCA parish, and ignored (many times) in the UOC one.
Point is: one cannot paint with such broad strokes. Both here are cradle clergy, BTW.
I apologize if I offend here, but convert priests will end up eventually where they will do their best work,IMO, irrespective of jurisdiction.

Wow!  This surprises me.  If this is the same priest whom I think it is (Fr. T), I have rarely found a more jovial individual.  Perhaps you caught him on a bad day.

No, you might misunderstand me. Fr Thomas and matushka were gracious hosts. The parish accommodated the Russians to a degree that was distracting, but I understood why.
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« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2013, 09:38:08 PM »

I was baptised in a ROCOR parish, one of the most "ethnic" jurisdictions, and guess what? We use 95% English, and our parish is, for the most part, non ethnic. Each parish wild be different, and you convert because Orthodoxy is the truth, and the jurisdiction doesn't matter(0.

That is really the case in the USA. Ethnicity varies comparison to parish and region to region. The old time Metropolia/OCA and ACROD Parishes in terms NE and Midwest are usually similar and somewhat more "ethnic" than in other parts of the country. The reality is that almost all recent Rusyn region immigrants are not Orthodox - being unaffected by the troubles in the Greek Catholic Church which led to the establishment of Orthodox churches for Rusyns in America. That is probably true of many Ukrainian immigrants as well. Hence we have to adapt to survive and attract converts.
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« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2013, 12:24:44 AM »

The OCA is not American, The OCA was formerly known as the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church in America, (not of America). OCA comes from the Orthodox Russian Church which ROCOR and OCA branched from during the martyrdom of Saint Tikhon and the fleeing to America from communist Russia. There is no "American Orthodox" Church. American is not united like other countries, it's separated by jurisdictions. Which causes America to breaks a lot of canons and ecumenical councils (for example, no more than one Bishop per city, but because of all the jurisdictions some cities have 5) America is just a baby in the Orthodox world and some say it's to young to establish a Patriarch here. America is very different in that since, you have to learn about it. As for where a person wants to join, we have the choice of personal preference. I personally picked ROCOR because to me it's the fullness of the faith and it's traditions. It could very from person to person. But it's all Orthodox, and you can't let pride get in the way of that. You have to remember, there are no jurisdictions in Heaven
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 12:28:02 AM by Peacemaker » Logged

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« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2013, 10:15:23 PM »

There is nothing about the OCA that makes it any more "American" than any other jurisdiction. Everything about it is Russian, except the English language, and the OCA is not the only jurisdiction to use English, nor does the OCA always use English.
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