Author Topic: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"  (Read 4917 times)

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Offline Malina

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #135 on: January 24, 2013, 05:39:48 PM »
In my opinion “traditionalism” is not a problem, if people will not be fanatic and obsessed about it.
The most important that we don`t have a right to change God`s commandments on human traditions.

Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #136 on: January 24, 2013, 05:57:46 PM »
@augustin717, so how do you describe a traditionalist?

Traditionalist and modernist, along with liberal and conservative, istm, are terms that are so poorly understood and subjective as to be impossible to discuss. So if you consider yourself a conservative, everyone who doesn't agree with you is a liberal, and vice versa.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 05:58:12 PM by katherineofdixie »
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Offline Symeon77

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #137 on: January 24, 2013, 07:18:15 PM »
Thank you for all who contributed to the task of defining this elusive 'traditionalism.' It appears, unfortunately, that the thread has dissolved long ago into the voicing of party lines, with each member talking past one another on the basis of implicit positions (probably articulated long ago for all I know, as I am new to this forum.)

To address but one point among many, so that I am clear from what perspective people are speaking from:

Augustin, you said:

Quote
At least on us-not talking about myself here- but some other party members Someone is keeping an eye on. I doubt the establishment feels in any way the same about your kind.

What party are you referring to here?

For what it is worth, since I am asking people to reveal a bit about their orientation, I am not partial to any party but I am sympathetic to the insights of Eric Voegelin:

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/know-your-gnostics/

and Thomas Molnar:

http://www.firstprinciplesjournal.com/articles.aspx?article=359&loc=fs

Men of the right, it could be argued, but I think their perspectives are broader, and can provide a corrective to much of the polarization of discourse about modernity and its prospects.
Where Christianity disappears, greed, envy, and lust invent a thousand ideologies to justify themselves.~ Nicolás Gómez Dávila

Abba Anthony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #138 on: January 24, 2013, 08:24:28 PM »
Alpo was referring to those of us who are not.

Correct. American culture is nice (if such thing exists. I tend to think cultures existing in smaller units than whole countries.) but other cultures are nice too.
There are a lot of smaller units of American culture (Southern, New England, Midwest, Californian, etc.)  In many ways speaking of American culture is like speaking of European culture.

I'd be curious: is there any awareness in Finland of the Finnish culture here?  There are large parts where, at least up to a decade ago, everyone spoke Finnish.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #139 on: January 24, 2013, 09:52:15 PM »
What you understand by 'traditionalism' - the naive reconstruction and reenactment of some ideal space/time (correct me if I don't catch your drift) - may be a means of coping with an alienating and at times hostile environment.

Mystification is a naturally occurring process for human animals. You'd have no sort of culture without it. It isn't inherently evil. May become so if people confine themselves to such a phantasy world of their own so as to no longer be able to communicate/interact with the world at large.

I would think you put what's on display in that photo on a par with 'Orthodoxy in Dixie' and many such-like phenomena. With the risk of shocking some, I would throw in theatres, opera-houses, musea, gay parades, bars, Disneyland, country clubs, hobbit houses, movies and so on, and so on. All of them are attempts at creating pockets of utopia in a grey, old and increasingly bored world. They all filter people according to arbitrary preferences or characteristics.

The radical antidote? A fortnight in the desert. Or a lifetime.      

Another interesting thread I won't have time to play in, but I must say this was a great post till the bolded part. If eye rolling were audible the sound would be deafening.

You are an interesting cat Romaios. So far I can't say I am in love with everything you say, but I do like how you say it.

Thanks.

Oh yeah, maybe you mentioned this or I am going to intuit, you are from / around Bucharest? If so, don't take my comment I just made about Bucharest too much to heart in another thread.

EDIT: If you are not at all from Romania can you pretend to be at least from Moldova?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 09:54:39 PM by orthonorm »
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #140 on: January 24, 2013, 09:55:31 PM »
Thank you for all who contributed to the task of defining this elusive 'traditionalism.' It appears, unfortunately, that the thread has dissolved long ago into the voicing of party lines, with each member talking past one another on the basis of implicit positions (probably articulated long ago for all I know, as I am new to this forum.)

To address but one point among many, so that I am clear from what perspective people are speaking from:

Augustin, you said:

Quote
At least on us-not talking about myself here- but some other party members Someone is keeping an eye on. I doubt the establishment feels in any way the same about your kind.

What party are you referring to here?

For what it is worth, since I am asking people to reveal a bit about their orientation, I am not partial to any party but I am sympathetic to the insights of Eric Voegelin:

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/know-your-gnostics/

and Thomas Molnar:

http://www.firstprinciplesjournal.com/articles.aspx?article=359&loc=fs

Men of the right, it could be argued, but I think their perspectives are broader, and can provide a corrective to much of the polarization of discourse about modernity and its prospects.


What I said to Romaios?
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #141 on: January 25, 2013, 01:23:21 AM »
Oh yeah, maybe you mentioned this or I am going to intuit, you are from / around Bucharest? If so, don't take my comment I just made about Bucharest too much to heart in another thread.

EDIT: If you are not at all from Romania can you pretend to be at least from Moldova?

Actually, I'm from the opposite, westernmost, corner of the country - Timișoara or Temeschwar as Germans call it. Augustin and I went to college together.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #142 on: January 25, 2013, 02:15:07 AM »
Oh yeah, maybe you mentioned this or I am going to intuit, you are from / around Bucharest? If so, don't take my comment I just made about Bucharest too much to heart in another thread.

EDIT: If you are not at all from Romania can you pretend to be at least from Moldova?

Actually, I'm from the opposite, westernmost, corner of the country - Timișoara or Temeschwar as Germans call it. Augustin and I went to college together.

No kidding? That's great. Well you not being from Bucharest. Spending your college years with augustin, I'll let you opine on that.
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #143 on: January 25, 2013, 02:31:35 AM »
Those were nice years although I've changed a bit since then. Nothing wild back then. In fact perhaps one or two vespers too many. ;) I was kinda bookish and awkward. Still am although it's no longer as visible as back then. But enough cause I'm not into making my life too public on the interwebs.

Offline Romaios

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #144 on: January 25, 2013, 02:33:41 AM »
No kidding? That's great. Well you not being from Bucharest. Spending your college years with augustin, I'll let you opine on that.

Well, that was great too. We used to agree more back then, though.   

Quote
But enough cause I'm not into making my life too public on the interwebs.

EDIT: Uh - you beat me to it! I catch your drift...  :-X

If only people knew how many prostrations you used to make...  :angel:
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 02:44:07 AM by Romaios »

Offline augustin717

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #145 on: January 25, 2013, 02:49:15 AM »

Our school, looking back at it, was pretty far off to the right with some exceptions. As for the prostration I only saw people do them here. In Romania only saw them in one monastery

Offline Romaios

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #146 on: January 25, 2013, 02:55:45 AM »
Our school, looking back at it, was pretty far off to the right with some exceptions.

If you say so... We weren't schooled by Legionaries, though.   

As for the prostration I only saw people do them here. In Romania only saw them in one monastery.

"Whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door..."

Offline augustin717

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #147 on: January 25, 2013, 03:03:57 AM »
Not entirely sure we were not schooled by an admirer of them at least.nice guy otherwise.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 03:05:32 AM by augustin717 »

Offline Alpo

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #148 on: January 25, 2013, 03:05:27 AM »
I'd be curious: is there any awareness in Finland of the Finnish culture here?  There are large parts where, at least up to a decade ago, everyone spoke Finnish.

The only thing I'm aware of is the cult of St. Urho. :P But then again I don't have any relatives there. Those who have probably know a lot more. Also, I recall reading about some cooperation between our Foreign ministry and American Finns and that there is at least one research about American Finns. I guess those can be counted as "any awareness".This is an interesting topic though. Maybe I should see if I can find more researces or articles on this.                

Offline Romaios

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #149 on: January 25, 2013, 03:14:15 AM »
Not entirely sure we were not schooled by an admirer of them at least.nice guy otherwise.

Him?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 03:22:07 AM by Romaios »

Offline augustin717

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #150 on: January 25, 2013, 03:16:09 AM »
No I don't wanna say names. Respect the privacy of people I know on a personal level.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 03:18:36 AM by augustin717 »

Offline Romaios

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #151 on: January 25, 2013, 03:25:11 AM »
No I don't wanna say names. Respect the privacy of people I know on a personal level.

Okay - I deleted the link.

The Communists won't be able to throw him in jail now, will they? For having the wrong sympathies...
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 03:27:16 AM by Romaios »

Offline augustin717

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #152 on: January 25, 2013, 03:28:11 AM »
That would only make them "new martyrs" so no, I hope they won't.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #153 on: January 25, 2013, 03:38:22 AM »
But even Communists rarely arrested people. For merely having "the wrong sympathies".i. Know some stories from people that saw these things. Grandmother's first husband was in the legion and arrested and died in prison but that wasn't merely on account of his sympathies. He was connected although at that poin he wasn't armed himself to the armed bands in the mountains. So  reality is a bit more nuanced. Of course his punisment was excessive but so were the times,

Offline Romaios

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #154 on: January 25, 2013, 03:44:26 AM »
But even Communists rarely arrested people. For merely having "the wrong sympathies".

I also know for a fact that they did. And it was hardly 'rarely'.



« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 03:55:59 AM by Romaios »

Offline augustin717

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #155 on: January 25, 2013, 03:50:37 AM »
I don't know the case.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #156 on: January 25, 2013, 03:52:41 AM »
I can only tell you that on the valley of Crisil Alb and our common friend can confirm or infirm it the only people arrested were some of the ex-legionnaires . Not even kulaks for there weren't any.

Offline Romaios

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #157 on: January 25, 2013, 04:05:05 AM »
I can only tell you that on the valley of Crisil Alb and our common friend can confirm or infirm it the only people arrested were some of the ex-legionnaires . Not even kulaks for there weren't any.

In Romania, the Communists took hold of power insidiously - more than half the country would have been their enemies. Especially intellectuals, clergy or young students. No point in sticking labels on them for that.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #158 on: January 25, 2013, 04:09:57 AM »
Hope you aren't all that right but you might have a point. The intellectuals were pretty cozy with Hitler. However a poll in 2009 shows that 80 percent of Romanians did of suffer personally or knew any that suffered during Communism. Politically

Offline augustin717

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #159 on: January 25, 2013, 04:11:08 AM »
These statistics greatly upset all the usual suspects Plesu Liiceanu etc

Offline augustin717

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #160 on: January 25, 2013, 04:14:22 AM »
Btw the clergy wasn't as uniformly anti communist . Check  the Union of Democratic Priests for one. And in Romania Communism was not particularly anti orthodox. On the contrary .

Offline Romaios

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #161 on: January 25, 2013, 04:15:46 AM »
The intellectuals were pretty cozy with Hitler.

Yup - my spiritual father must have been terribly cozy with Hitler! That's why the Communists did all they could for him to be "cozy" in jail.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #162 on: January 25, 2013, 04:19:54 AM »
I don't even know who your SF is but I know that Cooran Eliade Noica and a few others were quite enthusiastic for Hitler at some point. What embarassed them later.

Offline Romaios

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #163 on: January 25, 2013, 04:25:48 AM »
I don't even know who your SF is but I know that Cooran Eliade Noica and a few others were quite enthusiastic for Hitler at some point. What embarassed them later.

See, I don't care much about those - you can deconstruct them all you want. Father Crăciun I knew personally and no amount of Communist apologetics will be able to justify what happened to him.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #164 on: January 25, 2013, 04:29:06 AM »
See I wasn't talking about him because I barely know his name.Nothing more.I take your word on it.

Offline Romaios

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #165 on: January 25, 2013, 04:36:31 AM »
See I wasn't talking about him because I barely know his name.Nothing more.I take your word on it.

There are probably hundreds like him. But to you, because of the ideology you've come to embrace, they'll only be useless martyrs for a false cause, victims crushed by the "dynamics of history" at best - "filthy reactionaries" more likely. You will never care to learn their names or their stories. 

Offline Alpo

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #166 on: January 25, 2013, 04:39:55 AM »
I'm sorry to interrupt you two but it's intriguing to see two Romanians talking with each other in English instead of Romanian.

Offline Romaios

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #167 on: January 25, 2013, 04:43:53 AM »
I'm sorry to interrupt you two but it's intriguing to see two Romanians talking with each other in English instead of Romanian.

Would you have the Mod demand that we translate everything into English after writing loads in Romanian?  :-\
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 04:51:28 AM by Romaios »

Offline augustin717

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #168 on: January 25, 2013, 04:49:48 AM »
See I wasn't talking about him because I barely know his name.Nothing more.I take your word on it.

There are probably hundreds like him. But to you, because of the ideology you've come to embrace, they'll only be useless martyrs for a false cause, victims crushed by the "dynamics of history" at best - "filthy reactionaries" more likely. You will never care to learn their names or their stories. 
That's too much drama in just two sentences there. or what do you think that the left hasn't got martyrs? Some, even clergy.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #169 on: January 25, 2013, 04:51:53 AM »
I have two in my own family. One blood related one not that you could argue died as a result of communism. What can I say. It was tragic, unnecessary. God forgive them now.

Offline Alpo

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #170 on: January 25, 2013, 04:52:48 AM »
I'm sorry to interrupt you two but it's intriguing to see two Romanians talking with each other in English instead of Romanian.

Would you have the Mod demand that we translate everything into English after writing loads of messages in Romanian?  :-\

That was just a light-hearted observation and not a suggestion of switching to Romanian.

Offline Romaios

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #171 on: January 25, 2013, 04:57:41 AM »
That's too much drama in just two sentences there. or what do you think that the left hasn't got martyrs? Some, even clergy.

80% of Romanians are not acquainted or related to those.

I don't ignore martyrs like Oscar Romero, but I would hate to see the Party claim for the left all those who died opposing the injustice of the rich and powerful. You don't have to be a Communist (nor a Christian, for that matter) to die or suffer for a noble cause.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 05:07:54 AM by Romaios »

Offline Romaios

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #172 on: January 25, 2013, 04:59:22 AM »
I'm sorry to interrupt you two but it's intriguing to see two Romanians talking with each other in English instead of Romanian.

Would you have the Mod demand that we translate everything into English after writing loads of messages in Romanian?  :-\

That was just a light-hearted observation and not a suggestion of switching to Romanian.

I know Alpo - forgive me if I overreacted.  :)

Offline augustin717

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #173 on: January 25, 2013, 05:08:11 AM »
That's too much drama in just two sentences there. or what do you think that the left hasn't got martyrs? Some, even clergy.

80% of Romanians are not acquainted or related to those.

I don't ignore martyrs like Oscar Romero, but I would hate to see the Party claim for the left all those who died opposing the injustice of the rich and powerful. You don't have to be a Communist (nor a Christian, for that matter) to die for a noble cause.
So what, for 80% aren't related to the right wing martyrs either.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #174 on: January 25, 2013, 05:09:12 AM »
Quote
I don't ignore martyrs like Oscar Romero, but I would hate to see the Party claim for the left all those who died opposing the injustice of the rich and powerful. You don't have to be a Communist (nor a Christian, for that matter) to die or suffer for a noble cause.
That's a bit naive 'cause there are many parties within the spectrum of Communism.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 05:12:58 AM by augustin717 »

Offline Romaios

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #175 on: January 25, 2013, 05:16:06 AM »
So what, for 80% aren't related to the right wing martyrs either.

The point is that, in Romania, the ones in power who made most victims and martyrs in the 20th century were the Communists. Should we exonerate them or allow them to "justify" their crimes? Or perhaps give them a second chance at governing the country to make amends?

Offline augustin717

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #176 on: January 25, 2013, 05:18:34 AM »
Hm. You probably forgot the peasant revolts met with the King army's bullets in 1907 and before and after. Or the Jews and Gypsies killed by Antonescu et co.  Or the workers at Grivita. And some others.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 05:20:18 AM by augustin717 »

Offline Romaios

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #177 on: January 25, 2013, 05:24:14 AM »
Hm. You probably forgot the peasant revolts met with the King army's bullets in 1907 and before and after. Or the Jews killed by Antonescu et co.

I'm not for justifying anybody's crimes. I don't want the Legionaries back in power, but I'm not at all crazy about the Communists either. And I think it should be naive, stupid even, to forgive & forget - to shrug our shoulders and say: "so were the times".   
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 05:53:45 AM by Romaios »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #178 on: January 25, 2013, 06:38:00 AM »
Hm. You probably forgot the peasant revolts met with the King army's bullets in 1907 and before and after. Or the Jews and Gypsies killed by Antonescu et co.  Or the workers at Grivita. And some others.
"some others" et alia won't overcome the large head start the communists got in building the Danube-Black Sea Canal.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"
« Reply #179 on: January 25, 2013, 06:46:26 AM »
Quote
I don't ignore martyrs like Oscar Romero, but I would hate to see the Party claim for the left all those who died opposing the injustice of the rich and powerful. You don't have to be a Communist (nor a Christian, for that matter) to die or suffer for a noble cause.
That's a bit naive 'cause there are many parties within the spectrum of Communism.
Spectrum or spectre?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth