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Author Topic: Let's deconstruct "traditionalism"  (Read 2937 times) Average Rating: 0
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augustin717
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« on: January 23, 2013, 03:54:32 PM »

Thesis: Traditionalism is a thoroughly modern phenomenon. Traditionalists are deluded to think they can turn the clock back.
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augustin717
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« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2013, 03:58:19 PM »

i am inspired by this rich image:
http://alba24.ro/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/ascor-colinde-ocna-mures.jpg
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« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2013, 04:00:02 PM »

Nice folk group.
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« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2013, 04:01:33 PM »

Without question it's nice. But they live under the impression there is more to it than dressing up and sing songs. Like a theurgy of tradition or something.
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« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2013, 04:05:04 PM »

Define "traditionalism".

Also, don't orthodox differentiate between Tradition and traditions?  Are "traditionalists" simply obsessed with the lower case, traditions? Like folk garb.
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« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2013, 04:07:44 PM »

What "Traditionalism"? Are you referring to the Holy Tradition of Orthodoxy, the Traditionalists in the Roman Catholic Church or some weird Protestant "tradition is the philosophy of man," bullcrap?
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augustin717
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« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2013, 04:08:31 PM »

Off the cuff, since it's quite an amorphous reality, traditionalism seems to me the (reactionary) ideology that one can create nice little islands of archaism that can be insulated from the social and economic forces shaping our contemporary world.
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augustin717
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« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2013, 04:10:33 PM »

And I do not wanna focus on the orthodox varieties either. RC traditionalist probably would fit even more nicely into the paradigm.
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« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2013, 04:14:14 PM »

Are you effectively meaning that non-liberals are traditionalists?
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augustin717
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« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2013, 04:15:43 PM »

I'm not a "liberal" either. I'm a socialist. SO?
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« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2013, 04:17:04 PM »

Thesis: Traditionalism is a thoroughly modern phenomenon. Traditionalists are deluded to think they can turn the clock back.
False: here's an ancient example, the Sa'ite Renaissance:
http://books.google.com/books?id=XEMadfTi_U4C&pg=PA339&dq=saite+renaissance+%22discovering+and+inventing+the+past%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XUQAUfjvEorC2QXanICoDg&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=saite%20renaissance%20%22discovering%20and%20inventing%20the%20past%22&f=false

Atticism.  The Optimates of Rome.  The Macedonian Renaissance.  The Komnena Restoration.  The Palaeologian Renaissance.  The Phanariot Byzantium after Byzantium.  Plenty of pre-modern examples of Traditionalism can be given.
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« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2013, 04:24:04 PM »

In so far as they tried to imitate/reproduce "Byzantium" the Phanariotes probably only succeeded in making a caricature out of it. After all they were at the mercy of the Sultan/Padishah. It was a "let's pretend" sort of a game.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 04:24:29 PM by augustin717 » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2013, 04:24:41 PM »

What you understand by 'traditionalism' - the naive reconstruction and reenactment of some ideal space/time (correct me if I don't catch your drift) - may be a means of coping with an alienating and at times hostile environment.

Mystification is a naturally occurring process for human animals. You'd have no sort of culture without it. It isn't inherently evil. May become so if people confine themselves to such a phantasy world of their own so as to no longer be able to communicate/interact with the world at large.

I would think you put what's on display in that photo on a par with 'Orthodoxy in Dixie' and many such-like phenomena. With the risk of shocking some, I would throw in theatres, opera-houses, musea, gay parades, bars, Disneyland, country clubs, hobbit houses, movies and so on, and so on. All of them are attempts at creating pockets of utopia in a grey, old and increasingly bored world. They all filter people according to arbitrary preferences or characteristics.

The radical antidote? A fortnight in the desert. Or a lifetime.       
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 04:30:09 PM by Romaios » Logged
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« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2013, 04:25:11 PM »

Are you effectively meaning that non-liberals are traditionalists?
Define “traditionalist” and/or “liberal.” I tried to get that discussion started here once, but it died shortly after a few glib answers such as “traditionalists are those who follow the faith of the Apostles” were given.

It’s a discussion worth having.

EDIT: This was posted while I was composing, and I think it's a grand start even if I don't categorically agree with all of it:

What you understand by 'traditionalism' - the naive reconstruction and reenactment of some ideal space/time (correct me if I don't catch your drift) - may be a means of coping with an alienating and at times hostile environment.

Mystification is a naturally occurring process for human animals. You'd have no sort of culture without it. It isn't inherently evil. May become so if people confine themselves in such a phantasy world of their own and are no longer able to communicate/interact with the world at large.

I would think you put what's on display in that photo on a par with 'Orthodoxy in Dixie' and many such-like phenomena. With the risk of shocking some, I would throw in theatres, opera-houses, gay parades, bars, Disneyland, countryclubs, hobbit-houses, movies and so on, and so on. All of them are attempts at creating pockets of utopia in a grey, old and increasingly bored world. They all filter people according to arbitrary preferences or characteristics.

The radical antidote? A fortnight in the desert. Or a lifetime.       
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 04:27:00 PM by Agabus » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2013, 04:28:12 PM »

In so far as they tried to imitate/reproduce "Byzantium" the Phanariotes probably only succeeded in making a caricature out of it. After all they were at the mercy of the Sultan/Padishah. It was a "let's pretend" sort of a game.
Isn't that exactly what you are accusing Traditionalists of playing?
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« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2013, 04:32:31 PM »

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The radical antidote? A fortnight in the desert. Or a lifetime.       
Although I really like deserts I do not see how fleeing from human society is a solution. It might be extreme yes, but not a solution.
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augustin717
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« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2013, 04:36:56 PM »

Also traditionalism-as it is plenty clear on this board and the blogosphere-can be a longing/melancholia that prejudices have changed.
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augustin717
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« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2013, 04:38:16 PM »

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I would think you put what's on display in that photo on a par with 'Orthodoxy in Dixie' and many such-like phenomena.
One thing, at last we sorta agree on Wink
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« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2013, 04:44:03 PM »

Without question it's nice. But they live under the impression there is more to it than dressing up and sing songs. Like a theurgy of tradition or something.

I must have googled "theurgy".

I don't see your point. What are your trying to discuss here? People who try to preserve old customs and rituals? People, who keep conservative rightwing morality? People who LARP?

I have no idea.
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augustin717
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« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2013, 04:48:49 PM »

Quote
I would think you put what's on display in that photo on a par with 'Orthodoxy in Dixie' and many such-like phenomena. With the risk of shocking some, I would throw in theatres, opera-houses, musea, gay parades, bars, Disneyland, country clubs, hobbit houses, movies and so on, and so on. All of them are attempts at creating pockets of utopia in a grey, old and increasingly bored world. They all filter people according to arbitrary preferences or characteristics.
No there is no unique characteristic linking all things you list . A few yes, are linked by some commonalities but not all. Plus a bar only promises you an agreeable evening with friends or a hook-up depending, quite a world distance from creating/re-creating the "social reign of Christ" for instance. Not the same thing.
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« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2013, 04:53:26 PM »

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The radical antidote? A fortnight in the desert. Or a lifetime.       
Although I really like deserts I do not see how fleeing from human society is a solution. It might be extreme yes, but not a solution.

Then what? Changing one's utopias on a regular basis, so as not to get too bored with them. Accumulating "experience"? Having a culturally-informed multiply-developed vast-horizons-encompassing world view?

Or worse, reorienting your quest for knowledge and meaning towards human persons? They're not inexhaustible. You get bored with them too. Move on? To the next interesting friend, the next exotic "hottie", the other/the same sex?  

One can only do so much. Possibilities seem endless, but they are not infinite. And everybody's sort of running out of patience and frenetically looking for "something else". It's still going to be "wind chasing" as Qohelet put it. "Nothing new under the sun". And havel havalim ve haqol havel.

Of course, there's always going to be the bait: "the kingdoms of the world and their splendor". But, in the end, what/whom do you worship?  


 

 
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« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2013, 04:55:16 PM »

Quote
I would think you put what's on display in that photo on a par with 'Orthodoxy in Dixie' and many such-like phenomena.
One thing, at last we sorta agree on Wink
Orthodoxy in Dixie

and of course

http://orthodoxhistory.org/tag/philip-ludwell-iii/
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« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2013, 04:56:33 PM »

Quote
I would think you put what's on display in that photo on a par with 'Orthodoxy in Dixie' and many such-like phenomena. With the risk of shocking some, I would throw in theatres, opera-houses, musea, gay parades, bars, Disneyland, country clubs, hobbit houses, movies and so on, and so on. All of them are attempts at creating pockets of utopia in a grey, old and increasingly bored world. They all filter people according to arbitrary preferences or characteristics.
No there is no unique characteristic linking all things you list . A few yes, are linked by some commonalities but not all. Plus a bar only promises you an agreeable evening with friends or a hook-up depending, quite a world distance from creating/re-creating the "social reign of Christ" for instance. Not the same thing.
Yeah, not like promising a utopia like a workers' paradise.
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« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2013, 04:57:17 PM »

Quote
I would think you put what's on display in that photo on a par with 'Orthodoxy in Dixie' and many such-like phenomena.
One thing, at last we sorta agree on Wink
Orthodoxy in Dixie

and of course

http://orthodoxhistory.org/tag/philip-ludwell-iii/
We were talking about that funny movie but let's not switch subjects.
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« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2013, 04:57:58 PM »

Without question it's nice. But they live under the impression there is more to it than dressing up and sing songs. Like a theurgy of tradition or something.

I must have googled "theurgy".

I don't see your point. What are your trying to discuss here? People who try to preserve old customs and rituals? People, who keep conservative rightwing morality? People who LARP?

I have no idea.
you have a better idea, Michal, than he does.
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« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2013, 04:59:03 PM »

Quote
I would think you put what's on display in that photo on a par with 'Orthodoxy in Dixie' and many such-like phenomena.
One thing, at last we sorta agree on Wink
Orthodoxy in Dixie

and of course

http://orthodoxhistory.org/tag/philip-ludwell-iii/
We were talking about that funny movie but let's not switch subjects.
you're the one who started a conversation without a subject, just an object.  Not I.

So, what's so funny about the movie?
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« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2013, 05:00:04 PM »

Quote
The radical antidote? A fortnight in the desert. Or a lifetime.       
Although I really like deserts I do not see how fleeing from human society is a solution. It might be extreme yes, but not a solution.

Then what? Changing one's utopias on a regular basis, so as not to get too bored with them. Accumulating "experience"? Having a culturally-informed multiply-developed vast-horizons-encompassing world view?

Or worse, reorienting your quest for knowledge and meaning towards human persons? They're not inexhaustible. You get bored with them too. Move on? To the next interesting friend, the next exotic "hottie", the other/the same sex?  

One can only do so much. Possibilities seem endless, but they are not infinite. And everybody's sort of running out of patience and frenetically looking for "something else". It's still going to be "wind chasing" as Qohelet put it. "Nothing new under the sun". And havel havalim ve haqol havel.

Of course, there's always going to be the bait: "the kingdoms of the world and their splendor". But, in the end, what/whom do you worship?  


 

 
No need to go that far. More like trying to live meaningfully in the present in the place you find yourself in. Make peace with the world in a way. Living a full human life/experience.
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« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2013, 05:00:31 PM »

Traditionalism can be an idol, and this false traditionalism must be distinguished from a proper traditionalism. True traditionalism is merely an orthodox, living manifestation of tradition; tradition being nothing more than the faith and practices which our Lord gave to us for our salvation, which has been passed down through each new generation within the soul of the body of Christ. To be a traditionalist is to be Orthodox. That is not to say that one must proclaim oneself a traditionalist to be Orthodox. Neither do I think that one must join a Local Church that openly proclaims herself traditionalist to be Orthodox. Rather, to be Orthodox is to be Tradition: being Orthodox is not just about being "traditionalist," but it is, so to speak, to be tradition itself. Communion with God and union with all the saints makes us a living, growing part of Tradition. Tradition, in the Church, interpenetrates everything, and even the "newest" Orthodox thing is nothing but a new piece of fruit on the living tree called Tradition. Tradition is not simply the past fruit, then, but the fruit from all ages which has been pleasing to God and has been produced from the tree that he planted in His vineyard, the earth. True traditionalism is always loving, hoping,and faith-filled and faithful. True traditionalists look to the past to inform their understanding, learning from the past, and do not distort tradition by cultivating bitter arguments to use against their brothers, based on the sweet fruit of the Father's teachings.
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« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2013, 05:02:06 PM »

I tried to get that discussion started here once, but it died shortly after a few glib answers such as “traditionalists are those who follow the faith of the Apostles” were given.

There have been a number of threads on the subject, and there will yet be many more...
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« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2013, 05:04:46 PM »

Quote
The radical antidote? A fortnight in the desert. Or a lifetime.       
Although I really like deserts I do not see how fleeing from human society is a solution. It might be extreme yes, but not a solution.

Then what? Changing one's utopias on a regular basis, so as not to get too bored with them. Accumulating "experience"? Having a culturally-informed multiply-developed vast-horizons-encompassing world view?

Or worse, reorienting your quest for knowledge and meaning towards human persons? They're not inexhaustible. You get bored with them too. Move on? To the next interesting friend, the next exotic "hottie", the other/the same sex?  

One can only do so much. Possibilities seem endless, but they are not infinite. And everybody's sort of running out of patience and frenetically looking for "something else". It's still going to be "wind chasing" as Qohelet put it. "Nothing new under the sun". And havel havalim ve haqol havel.

Of course, there's always going to be the bait: "the kingdoms of the world and their splendor". But, in the end, what/whom do you worship?  


 

 
No need to go that far. More like trying to live meaningfully in the present in the place you find yourself in. Make peace with the world in a way. Living a full human life/experience.
I can see how that could conflict with Traditionalism, but necessary conflict do you find with tradition in that pursuit?
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« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2013, 05:10:10 PM »

Let me be clear that I although "modernity" can be a very nebulous concept, for me it's shorthand for largely progressive, leftist movements toward greater liberty: economic, social, political. But also the present economic  structure of global capitalism that is liberty's enemy in the end.
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« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2013, 05:10:31 PM »

No need to go that far. More like trying to live meaningfully in the present in the place you find yourself in. Make peace with the world in a way. Living a full human life/experience.

So the extremes would be being an idiot (someone who is so eccentric that he's totally severed his ties to the outside-world) or to "go with the flow" (suit yourself as best you can to the "fashion/face of this world" so as to be likeable and easy-going).

I guess Tradition should be the middle way: being in the world, but not of this world.    
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« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2013, 05:15:36 PM »

Thesis: Traditionalism is a thoroughly modern phenomenon.

True.

Quote
Traditionalists are deluded to think they can turn the clock back.

Not true. IMO those who want to rediscover various alleged early church traditions are those who want to turn the clock back. Those who are called as traditionalists just want to continue with what former generation used to do without reinventing the weel.
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« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2013, 05:19:24 PM »

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Not true. IMO those who want to rediscover various alleged early church traditions are those who want to turn the clock back. Those who are called as traditionalists just want to continue with what former generation used to do without reinventing the weel.
But the "former generation" itself wasn't nearly as monolithic as thy think. Or even when they gave some assent to things the traditionalists hold dear they did it in completely different circumstances and reasons. Take the phenomenon of women covering their head, because it's conspicuous.
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« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2013, 05:27:32 PM »

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Not true. IMO those who want to rediscover various alleged early church traditions are those who want to turn the clock back. Those who are called as traditionalists just want to continue with what former generation used to do without reinventing the weel.
But the "former generation" itself wasn't nearly as monolithic as thy think. Or even when they gave some assent to things the traditionalists hold dear they did it in completely different circumstances and reasons. Take the phenomenon of women covering their head, because it's conspicuous.

You may have a point in that the former generation was not as monolithic as people might think. However I do think that there is some wisdom in preserving some traditions even the reasons for preserving them may change. Cultures can't be reconstructed on basis of or evaluated by reason. That'll just destroy them.
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« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2013, 05:28:30 PM »

I still do not know who or what are you discussing.
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« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2013, 05:31:17 PM »

Yes, Alpo. But you see modernism is already able to incorporate enough of the old stuff into the present, as it grew out of that. As I see it, progress is just expanding the boundaries of freedom, incorporating more, formerly oppressed groups.  While traditionalist movements are way more parochial and bitching at the present. Or at least the more progressive  parts of the present. They are all quite at peace with the most severe forms of economic injustice though.
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« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2013, 05:33:16 PM »

I still do not know who or what are you discussing.
Trying at least to talk about what fuels movements and individuals self-described as "traditional(ist)".
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« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2013, 05:33:47 PM »

Let me be clear that I although "modernity" can be a very nebulous concept, for me it's shorthand for largely progressive, leftist movements toward greater liberty: economic, social, political. But also the present economic  structure of global capitalism that is liberty's enemy in the end.

Liberty does have its limits for the human animal. I don't mean those imposed by the "filthy burgeois". I mean the biological and physical limits inherent to the human condition: death, illness, suffering.

How many drinks/wild nights-out/merry-go-rounds around the carusel of life can one enjoy before one ruins one's health? How much money can you make before you become a greedy oppressor? How much pleasure or pain can you endure before you become hooked or crushed?   

This goes for the individual, but also for society at large. If there's more and smarter people, that doesn't automatically mean more material "progress" is possible, plausible or even desirable. Technology seems to enable us to live longer, but have a miserable old age; provides us with more food, but less qualitative or even dangerous, etc.

So, to quote one of your 'favourite' authors: "What is lost when something is gained?"   
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« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2013, 05:42:47 PM »

Why is it all important for nearly all self-described "traditionalists" to oppose women's rights, gay rights, worker's rights, immigration, Gypsies etc etc? For some pater familias to feel like he's big and has got power? In the end I think so...On the micro-level I mean. In the macro it's all about the power of capital to easily dispose people as needed by the demands of it's inner logic.
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« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2013, 05:46:37 PM »

I still do not know who or what are you discussing.
Trying at least to talk about what fuels movements and individuals self-described as "traditional(ist)".

I think of myself as a traditionalist however many of people here can think of me as liberal. These are very subjective terms.
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« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2013, 05:47:20 PM »

Yes, Alpo. But you see modernism is already able to incorporate enough of the old stuff into the present, as it grew out of that. While traditionalist movements are way more parochial and bitching at the present. Or at least the more progressive  parts of the present. They are all quite at peace with the most severe forms of economic injustice.

Since I'm not a Socialist we might have a little differing opinions on what constitutes as "severe forms of economic injustice" Wink

I believe we might speaking about a little different things here since our backgrounds are way different. I know very little about rural Orthodoxy in Romania and or US society and I'm assuming you know very little about history and present state of Finland.

What do you mean by "modernism"? I thought I had a hunch what you were talking about traditionalism but I'm not exactly sure what you mean by modernism. Some words seem to have different meaning in the US than they do back here.

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« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2013, 05:48:24 PM »

I still do not know who or what are you discussing.
Trying at least to talk about what fuels movements and individuals self-described as "traditional(ist)".

I think of myself as a traditionalist however many of people here can think of me as liberal. These are very subjective terms.
From what you write here I never thought of you as a "traditionalist" in the sense discussed here.
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« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2013, 05:49:44 PM »

@augustin717, so how do you describe a traditionalist?
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« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2013, 05:53:13 PM »

Quote
So, to quote one of your 'favourite' authors: "What is lost when something is gained?"   
Perhaps some idyllism, that never was as idyllic to begin with is lost, like a nice home-loomed shirt. What is gained? Berhaps more women getting to have a say in whom they marry? I think it's not a terrible exchange. Neither do some of those that tasted that, think so.
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« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2013, 05:57:19 PM »

But you see modernism is already able to incorporate enough of the old stuff into the present, as it grew out of that.

If you look at it through the lens of Ecclesiastes (which I tried above), the traditionalism/modernism alternative is a mere illusion. People weren't that much different back then and aren't much different now. Enlightenment and progress are also (at least partly) anthropocentric illusions at the much larger scale of life/the Universe. They vanish into thin air like the dream of one who awakens when a volcano errupts or a tsunami comes. All we build is just cobwebs. Man did not irreversibly conquer nature or push his limits very far. We just like to believe so. We shouldn't fool ourselves, though.  

As I see it, progress is just expanding the boundaries of freedom, incorporating more, formerly oppressed groups.  While traditionalist movements are way more parochial and bitching at the present. Or at least the more progressive  parts of the present. They are all quite at peace with the most severe forms of economic injustice though.

Traditional ways seem to be more at peace with the universe, are less hostile to the environment, bring more emotional and spiritual balance. They are not militant and they are quite vulnerable. They don't fight evil with evil. They promote sustainable life-styles. They can be resilient - as the Tao Te Jing says about water. In the end, 'the meek shall inherit the earth'. Or what's left of it after the progressive and aggressive are done with it.  
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« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2013, 05:59:22 PM »

Quote
If you look at it through the lens of Ecclesiastes (which I tried above), the traditionalism/modernism alternative is a mere illusion. People weren't that much different back then and aren't much different now. Enlightenment and progress are also (at least partly) anthropocentric illusions at the much larger scale of life/the Universe. They vanish into thin air like the dream of one who awakens when a volcano errupts or a tsunami comes. All we build is just cobwebs. Man did not irreversibly conquer nature or push his limits very far. We just like to believe so. We shouldn't fool ourselves, though. 
All leftists know how fragile civilization is. No argument there.  But to deny that any change has ever happened. I don't know what illusion that is. Perennialism?!
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« Reply #47 on: January 23, 2013, 06:01:40 PM »

Quote
So, to quote one of your 'favourite' authors: "What is lost when something is gained?"   
Perhaps some idyllism, that never was as idyllic to begin with is lost, like a nice home-loomed shirt. What is gained? Berhaps more women getting to have a say in whom they marry? I think it's not a terrible exchange. Neither do some of those that tasted that, think so.

Culture is lost. I'd rather have people wearing traditional clothes, eating home-made food and speaking their native language than whole world wearing jeans, eating McFood and speakind American English
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« Reply #48 on: January 23, 2013, 06:03:35 PM »

Quote
So, to quote one of your 'favourite' authors: "What is lost when something is gained?"  
Perhaps some idyllism, that never was as idyllic to begin with is lost, like a nice home-loomed shirt. What is gained? Berhaps more women getting to have a say in whom they marry? I think it's not a terrible exchange. Neither do some of those that tasted that, think so.

Culture is lost. I'd rather have people wearing traditional clothes, eating home-made food and speaking their native language than whole world wearing jeans, eating McFood and speakind American English
No you cry over spilled milk. These changes though are due to the dynamics of global capital. But anyways no traditionalist grouplet will bring these back. Perhaps if global capital is crushed, or rather, socialized, then new "localisms" of that kind or who knows will arise.
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« Reply #49 on: January 23, 2013, 06:08:38 PM »

No you cry over spilled milk. These changes though are due to the dynamics of global capital.

Or global Socialism that created places like Alexanderplatz. Wink

But anyway, I believe you are partly correct and that's one of the reasons why I haven't ended up as a Libertarian.
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« Reply #50 on: January 23, 2013, 06:13:12 PM »

All leftists know how fragile civilization is. No argument there.  But to deny that any change has ever happened. I don't know what illusion that is. Perennialism?!

Tradition (not traditionalism - its modern caricature) would be able to incorporate change. It just resists 'change for change's sake', 'progress for the sake of progress' or for fear one should be 'left behind'. Man should have a core, a soul that's not so easily sold to "any spirit" - the headscarves and the Byzantine garbs and the onion domes are nice, but not all-important or essential for salvation.

Traditional man doesn't want to be so open minded that his brain should fall out, as Chesterton put it. That's all.

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« Reply #51 on: January 23, 2013, 06:15:50 PM »

All leftists know how fragile civilization is. No argument there.  But to deny that any change has ever happened. I don't know what illusion that is. Perennialism?!

Tradition (not traditionalism - its modern caricature) would be able to incorporate change. It just resists 'change for change's sake', 'progress for the sake of progress' or for fear one should be 'left behind'. Man should have a core, a soul that's not so easily sold to "any spirit" - the headscarves and the Byzantine garbs and the onion domes are nice, but not all-important or essential for salvation.

It doesn't want to be so open minded that one's brain should fall out, as Chesterton put it.


Chesterton was witty. Sometimes. Otherwise his thinking was hopelessly idealistic. He probably fathered much of today's traditionalist petty ideologies.
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« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2013, 06:17:17 PM »

Why is it all important for nearly all self-described "traditionalists" to oppose women's rights, gay rights, worker's rights, immigration, Gypsies etc etc? For some pater familias to feel like he's big and has got power? In the end I think so...On the micro-level I mean. In the macro it's all about the power of capital to easily dispose people as needed by the demands of it's inner logic.
what a load of crap.  And from some one who lived, however briefly, under papa familias Ceaucescu, the very opposite of Tradition and traditionalism, and author (at least in name) of "The Decisive Victories of Socialism and the Triumph of Marxist-Leninism"
http://books.google.com/books/about/Victoriile_hot%C4%83r%C3%AEtoare_ale_socialismul.html?id=U37SXwAACAAJ

In the land that required each woman to put out five "children of Ceaucescu" (and mandated that their apparati be examined en masse at their workplace to make sure all was in proper working order), homosexuality was just as banned as before the EU entry, some workers were worked to death and the rest were just pretended to be paid, along with a generous use of the medieval corvee, nationals were expelled let alone letting foreigners come in (or even Romanians-I knew someone who was prosecuted for having come from Bessarabia), and Gypsies were herded into ghettos and their culture supressed...it seems you are coming here and doing a heavy load of projecting in your complaints about "Traditionalism," which seems to be nothing more your envy filled caricature of (white/WASP) American conservatism, especially of the evangelical sort, who have no concept of tradition although having one.
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« Reply #53 on: January 23, 2013, 06:21:07 PM »

Why is it all important for nearly all self-described "traditionalists" to oppose women's rights, gay rights, worker's rights, immigration, Gypsies etc etc? For some pater familias to feel like he's big and has got power? In the end I think so...On the micro-level I mean. In the macro it's all about the power of capital to easily dispose people as needed by the demands of it's inner logic.
what a load of crap.  And from some one who lived, however briefly, under papa familias Ceaucescu, the very opposite of Tradition and traditionalism, and author (at least in name) of "The Decisive Victories of Socialism and the Triumph of Marxist-Leninism"
http://books.google.com/books/about/Victoriile_hot%C4%83r%C3%AEtoare_ale_socialismul.html?id=U37SXwAACAAJ

In the land that required each woman to put out five "children of Ceaucescu" (and mandated that their apparati be examined en masse at their workplace to make sure all was in proper working order), homosexuality was just as banned as before the EU entry, some workers were worked to death and the rest were just pretended to be paid, along with a generous use of the medieval corvee, nationals were expelled let alone letting foreigners come in (or even Romanians-I knew someone who was prosecuted for having come from Bessarabia), and Gypsies were herded into ghettos and their culture supressed...it seems you are coming here and doing a heavy load of projecting in your complaints about "Traditionalism," which seems to be nothing more your envy filled caricature of (white/WASP) American conservatism, especially of the evangelical sort, who have no concept of tradition although having one.
Unlike you I do not look at a past epoch to be reproduced here and now. Or in the future. But your party runs on that sort of manure: "let's make America [great/christian, free/capitalist/libertarian etc] again." You all wail and weep for lost golden ages. It's what get you votes.
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« Reply #54 on: January 23, 2013, 06:22:49 PM »

Quote
So, to quote one of your 'favourite' authors: "What is lost when something is gained?"   
Perhaps some idyllism, that never was as idyllic to begin with is lost, like a nice home-loomed shirt. What is gained? Berhaps more women getting to have a say in whom they marry? I think it's not a terrible exchange. Neither do some of those that tasted that, think so.
how much did many men have a say in whom they marry, in that "idylic time" you accuse them of?
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« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2013, 06:23:45 PM »

Chesterton was witty. Sometimes. Otherwise his thinking was hopelessly idealistic. He probably fathered much of today's traditionalist petty ideologies.

I would expect a decent "deconstruction of traditionalism" to be more complex a language game than a sentence-long sketch of some genealogy of "reactionary" ideas.

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« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2013, 06:24:00 PM »

Why is it all important for nearly all self-described "traditionalists" to oppose women's rights, gay rights, worker's rights, immigration, Gypsies etc etc? For some pater familias to feel like he's big and has got power? In the end I think so...On the micro-level I mean. In the macro it's all about the power of capital to easily dispose people as needed by the demands of it's inner logic.
what a load of crap.  And from some one who lived, however briefly, under papa familias Ceaucescu, the very opposite of Tradition and traditionalism, and author (at least in name) of "The Decisive Victories of Socialism and the Triumph of Marxist-Leninism"
http://books.google.com/books/about/Victoriile_hot%C4%83r%C3%AEtoare_ale_socialismul.html?id=U37SXwAACAAJ

In the land that required each woman to put out five "children of Ceaucescu" (and mandated that their apparati be examined en masse at their workplace to make sure all was in proper working order), homosexuality was just as banned as before the EU entry, some workers were worked to death and the rest were just pretended to be paid, along with a generous use of the medieval corvee, nationals were expelled let alone letting foreigners come in (or even Romanians-I knew someone who was prosecuted for having come from Bessarabia), and Gypsies were herded into ghettos and their culture supressed...it seems you are coming here and doing a heavy load of projecting in your complaints about "Traditionalism," which seems to be nothing more your envy filled caricature of (white/WASP) American conservatism, especially of the evangelical sort, who have no concept of tradition although having one.
Unlike you I do not look at a pat epoch to be reproduced here and now. But your party runs on that sort of manure: "let's make America [great/christian, free/capitalist/libertarian etc] again."
and what do you call that manure your party, and more to the point, world-view runs on?
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« Reply #57 on: January 23, 2013, 06:26:40 PM »

Quote
So, to quote one of your 'favourite' authors: "What is lost when something is gained?"  
Perhaps some idyllism, that never was as idyllic to begin with is lost, like a nice home-loomed shirt. What is gained? Berhaps more women getting to have a say in whom they marry? I think it's not a terrible exchange. Neither do some of those that tasted that, think so.

Culture is lost. I'd rather have people wearing traditional clothes, eating home-made food and speaking their native language than whole world wearing jeans, eating McFood and speakind American English
No you cry over spilled milk. These changes though are due to the dynamics of global capital. But anyways no traditionalist grouplet will bring these back. Perhaps if global capital is crushed, or rather, socialized, then new "localisms" of that kind or who knows will arise.
So this is no honest discussion of Traditionalism.  Just another Marxist rant.
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« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2013, 06:28:17 PM »

Chesterton was witty. Sometimes. Otherwise his thinking was hopelessly idealistic. He probably fathered much of today's traditionalist petty ideologies.

I would expect a decent "deconstruction of traditionalism" to be more complex a language game than a sentence-long sketch of some genealogy of "reactionary" ideas.

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                                   Petty.

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Is it petty to say that Chesterton wasn't a a thinker of the highest caliber? Perhaps unnecessary in this tread but hardly name calling.
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« Reply #59 on: January 23, 2013, 06:28:30 PM »

All leftists know how fragile civilization is. No argument there.  But to deny that any change has ever happened. I don't know what illusion that is. Perennialism?!

Tradition (not traditionalism - its modern caricature) would be able to incorporate change. It just resists 'change for change's sake', 'progress for the sake of progress' or for fear one should be 'left behind'. Man should have a core, a soul that's not so easily sold to "any spirit" - the headscarves and the Byzantine garbs and the onion domes are nice, but not all-important or essential for salvation.

It doesn't want to be so open minded that one's brain should fall out, as Chesterton put it.


Chesterton was witty. Sometimes. Otherwise his thinking was hopelessly idealistic. He probably fathered much of today's traditionalist petty ideologies.
He has passed the test of time.

Marx, in the dust heap of history, failed.
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« Reply #60 on: January 23, 2013, 06:28:57 PM »

In so far as they tried to imitate/reproduce "Byzantium" the Phanariotes probably only succeeded in making a caricature out of it. After all they were at the mercy of the Sultan/Padishah. It was a "let's pretend" sort of a game.

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« Reply #61 on: January 23, 2013, 06:29:58 PM »

All leftists know how fragile civilization is. No argument there.  But to deny that any change has ever happened. I don't know what illusion that is. Perennialism?!

Tradition (not traditionalism - its modern caricature) would be able to incorporate change. It just resists 'change for change's sake', 'progress for the sake of progress' or for fear one should be 'left behind'. Man should have a core, a soul that's not so easily sold to "any spirit" - the headscarves and the Byzantine garbs and the onion domes are nice, but not all-important or essential for salvation.

It doesn't want to be so open minded that one's brain should fall out, as Chesterton put it.


Chesterton was witty. Sometimes. Otherwise his thinking was hopelessly idealistic. He probably fathered much of today's traditionalist petty ideologies.
He has passed the test of time.

Marx, in the dust heap of history, failed.
You are a troll... yawn...
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« Reply #62 on: January 23, 2013, 06:30:19 PM »

Chesterton was witty. Sometimes. Otherwise his thinking was hopelessly idealistic. He probably fathered much of today's traditionalist petty ideologies.

I would expect a decent "deconstruction of traditionalism" to be more complex a language game than a sentence-long sketch of some genealogy of "reactionary" ideas.

                     Name-calling.

                                   Petty.

                                         The high seat of judgement.


Is it petty to say that Chesterton wasn't a a thinker of the highest caliber? Perhaps unnecessary in this tread but hardly name calling.
in a thread started for petty name calling, sure is.
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« Reply #63 on: January 23, 2013, 06:33:16 PM »

All leftists know how fragile civilization is. No argument there.  But to deny that any change has ever happened. I don't know what illusion that is. Perennialism?!

Tradition (not traditionalism - its modern caricature) would be able to incorporate change. It just resists 'change for change's sake', 'progress for the sake of progress' or for fear one should be 'left behind'. Man should have a core, a soul that's not so easily sold to "any spirit" - the headscarves and the Byzantine garbs and the onion domes are nice, but not all-important or essential for salvation.

It doesn't want to be so open minded that one's brain should fall out, as Chesterton put it.


Chesterton was witty. Sometimes. Otherwise his thinking was hopelessly idealistic. He probably fathered much of today's traditionalist petty ideologies.
He has passed the test of time.

Marx, in the dust heap of history, failed.
You are a troll... yawn...
"Sleep, sleep sweet Prince. Your time for rest has finally come. All the lies, and the deceit. Are finally undone. Sleep, sleep sweet Prince. Your job is done."
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« Reply #64 on: January 23, 2013, 06:34:18 PM »

All leftists know how fragile civilization is. No argument there.  But to deny that any change has ever happened. I don't know what illusion that is. Perennialism?!

Tradition (not traditionalism - its modern caricature) would be able to incorporate change. It just resists 'change for change's sake', 'progress for the sake of progress' or for fear one should be 'left behind'. Man should have a core, a soul that's not so easily sold to "any spirit" - the headscarves and the Byzantine garbs and the onion domes are nice, but not all-important or essential for salvation.

It doesn't want to be so open minded that one's brain should fall out, as Chesterton put it.


Chesterton was witty. Sometimes. Otherwise his thinking was hopelessly idealistic. He probably fathered much of today's traditionalist petty ideologies.
He has passed the test of time.

Marx, in the dust heap of history, failed.
You are a troll... yawn...
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« Reply #65 on: January 23, 2013, 06:36:06 PM »

To save this thread from its OP:

Traditionalism: the dead world of the living; the orientation of keeping a fossil on life support indefinitely, resisting any signs of life, growth and change.
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« Reply #66 on: January 23, 2013, 06:37:57 PM »

Is it petty to say that Chesterton wasn't a a thinker of the highest caliber? Perhaps unnecessary in this tread but hardly name calling.

So what? I wasn't quoting him as "a thinker of the highest caliber" or Scripture to base the core of some lofty argument on him. There's room for comedians, babushkas, novelists, Elders, politicians and so forth on a thread like this (in the best postmodern fashion), I should think - or do you indeed intend it to be a dead-serious deconstruction and a definitive demolition of all the idola tribus of the Orthodox?

Just imagine if Isa started to say which leftist sages he disconsiders as "thinkers of the highest caliber"...  

Oh - I just missed one. Marx is in the garbage bin of history already.  laugh Roll Eyes

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« Reply #67 on: January 23, 2013, 06:43:50 PM »

Ladies and gents, we've spent a couple of pleasant hours yelling at each other I hope. I'll go soon. Might come back later .
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« Reply #68 on: January 23, 2013, 06:45:54 PM »



Quote
Oh - I just missed one. Marx is in the garbage bin of history already.  laugh Roll Eyes
Yeah, and Chesterton's guilds and yeomen and elves and dwarfs are all back i  swing. Can one be more puerile than Isa?!
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« Reply #69 on: January 23, 2013, 06:50:34 PM »

Is it petty to say that Chesterton wasn't a a thinker of the highest caliber? Perhaps unnecessary in this tread but hardly name calling.

So what? I wasn't quoting him as "a thinker of the highest caliber" or Scripture to base the core of some lofty argument on him. There's room for comedians, babushkas, novelists, Elders, politicians and so forth on a thread like this (in the best postmodern fashion), I should think - or do you indeed intend it to be a dead-serious deconstruction and a definitive demolition of all the idola tribus of the Orthodox?

Just imagine if Isa started to say which leftist sages he disconsiders as "thinkers of the highest caliber"...  

Oh - I just missed one. Marx is in the garbage bin of history already.  laugh Roll Eyes


To be fair, he was good at observation, just not so hot on analysis. And prediction. Forget it.

His followers can be good.  I was upbraided once or twice here for my admiration of the work of the recently deceased Eric Hobsbawm, because he was Marxist.  He's by far not the only Marxist who produced quality work (no, Ceausescu wasn't one).
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« Reply #70 on: January 23, 2013, 06:51:16 PM »



Quote
Oh - I just missed one. Marx is in the garbage bin of history already.  laugh Roll Eyes
Yeah, and Chesterton's guilds and yeomen and elves and dwarfs are all back i  swing. Can one be more puerile than Isa?!
I guess the child will judge that.
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« Reply #71 on: January 23, 2013, 06:51:40 PM »

Hmm... "traditionalism." To be honest, I'm fine with tradition, being the spiritual mongrel of Roman Catholicism, Greek Catholicism, and Orthodoxy I am. But when I think "traditionalist" I think finger-pointing aggressive person who thinks we should all live in the world of pre- Vatican II Catholicism or pre-Soviet Era Orthodoxy because it was absolutely flawless back then, and calls anyone hwo disagrees a heretic.
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« Reply #72 on: January 23, 2013, 08:24:28 PM »

A quote to rescue this thread from oblivion and, perhaps, put it on a more productive and decent track.

I don't know much about the author, I  just happened to like this:

Quote
La tradizione non e il passato, ma la memoria e lo spessore storico di cio che di volta in volta e attuale.

"Tradition is not the past, but the memory and the historical depositary of that which, from time to time, becomes actual (relevant to the present)."

Stefano Levi della Tore

Sounds a bit like Matthew 13:52 - "Therefore every scribe who hath been made a disciple to the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is a householder, who bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old."


                                                                                                                           

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« Reply #73 on: January 23, 2013, 08:38:48 PM »

Another one, more to the liking of Augustin (I dare hope) - though it's more green than red:

Quote
...Con il resto della mia vita mi accingo a fare il cristiano, al quale è stato indicato un percorso, il cui compito non consiste nel dire agli altri quale sia questa via, ma nel percorrerla fino in fondo (chi si fida di me mi fa piacere se mi sta vicino, chi non si fida mi fa piacere se gira alla larga). Per i cristiani non è importante tanto l’essere credenti quanto essere credibili: come si potrebbe tacere oggi di fronte all’avvelenamento dell’aria, dei cibi, dell’acqua ?

With the rest of my life I gird myself to be a Christian, to whom a path has been indicated the point of which does not consist in telling others how this life should be, but in following it to the end (I'll be happy if those who trust me are by my side; those who don't - I'd rather they turned and walked away). For Christians it's not so important to be believers as to be credible: how could one remain silent today, when the earth, the food, the water are being poisoned?   

Gino Girolomoni
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« Reply #74 on: January 23, 2013, 08:53:36 PM »

I hope no one scoffs at the idealism of children, though they be not "thinkers of great calibre":

Freedom is…

Free is someone
who does what he/she ought to,
not someone who does what he/she wants.

Free is someone who loves everybody,
not someone with guns,
with rifles,
who wants to go to war,
who wants to kill.

Free is also the field,
the unseen wind
which blows from one place to another.

This is true freedom.


Fatima Numun Rahman -12 years old.
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« Reply #75 on: January 23, 2013, 09:41:46 PM »

Yeah one bible verse thrown in here one out there that's gonna greatly illuminate a discussion with which the writer of Ecclesiastes was very acquainted to.
I didn't wanna talk about tradition here. No sane man will deny there is such a thing and its inescapable, but about that byproduct first of the changes brought about by the French Revolution that is sometimes called traditionalism/integrism / conservatism even. And that sometimes was jus a lament for the lost privileges at times bitching about present some other times a political project to restore l'ancien Régine etc. And its very cartoonish Internet offshoots ,
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« Reply #76 on: January 23, 2013, 09:57:06 PM »

Yeah one bible verse thrown in here one out there that's gonna greatly illuminate a discussion with which the writer of Ecclesiastes was very acquainted to.
I didn't wanna talk about tradition here. No sane man will deny there is such a thing and its inescapable, but about that byproduct first of the changes brought about by the French Revolution that is sometimes called traditionalism/integrism / conservatism even. And that sometimes was jus a lament for the lost privileges at times bitching about present some other times a political project to restore l'ancien Régine etc. And its very cartoonish Internet offshoots ,
as already pointed out, you are wedded to a false chronology.  The traditionalism of the Optimates brought on by the Conflict of the Orders and the rise of the Novi Homines predate the French Revolution by two thousand years.

Yes, the writer of Ecclesiastes was very acquainted by the course of human events.  And "bitching about present", whether restoration of old regimes or erection of new utopias, predates the Biblical writer as well.
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« Reply #77 on: January 23, 2013, 10:00:26 PM »

Don't just bring in red herrings. You know well that all contemporary traditionalist/conservative discourse originate not with the Optimates but with a reaction to the ideals of the French Revolution.oh com'on American conservatism someof it at least is just frozen 18th century liberalism. They don't even have a throne and altar to rally their troops around.
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« Reply #78 on: January 23, 2013, 10:05:23 PM »

Don't just bring in red herrings. You know well that all contemporary traditionalist/conservative discourse originate not with the Optimates but with a reaction to the ideals of the French Revolution.
Evidently not, as American conservatism, your favorite target, predates the French Revolution.
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« Reply #79 on: January 23, 2013, 10:11:17 PM »

All leftists know how fragile civilization is. No argument there.  But to deny that any change has ever happened. I don't know what illusion that is. Perennialism?!

Tradition (not traditionalism - its modern caricature) would be able to incorporate change. It just resists 'change for change's sake', 'progress for the sake of progress' or for fear one should be 'left behind'. Man should have a core, a soul that's not so easily sold to "any spirit" - the headscarves and the Byzantine garbs and the onion domes are nice, but not all-important or essential for salvation.

It doesn't want to be so open minded that one's brain should fall out, as Chesterton put it.


Chesterton was witty. Sometimes. Otherwise his thinking was hopelessly idealistic. He probably fathered much of today's traditionalist petty ideologies.
He has passed the test of time.

Marx, in the dust heap of history, failed.
Yet true Communism has never really been tried.

You really think places like China are truly communist?
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« Reply #80 on: January 23, 2013, 10:13:21 PM »

I didn't wanna talk about tradition here. No sane man will deny there is such a thing and its inescapable, but about that byproduct first of the changes brought about by the French Revolution that is sometimes called traditionalism/integrism / conservatism even. And that sometimes was jus a lament for the lost privileges at times bitching about present some other times a political project to restore l'ancien Régine etc. And its very cartoonish Internet offshoots ,

The French Revolution was violent - it was bound to produce a violent reaction. Evil breeds evil.

There are different "traditions" which produce different types of traditionalisms. There are curious fusions and contaminations of ideas. Someone catches a bug overseas or reads a book by some crazy author and returns home and wants to start a revolution. The blind leading the blind. Why should one follow them? 'Change can only be for the better. It can get no worse than this.' It could and it did.

I just can't - for the life of me - understand why the ideology of the French Revolution needed to be exported everywhere as the optimal and universal model for progress, together with the machines of the Industrial Revolution. Why did that hatred need to become the new social religion of the masses? I just can't believe that the upper classes were all equally corrupt, evil and oppressive all throughout the world. There were far more places where Communism was forcefully imposed (worse than Islam) than where it was peacefully embraced by the masses. You'll say that's how revolution works...     

History - progress - dynamics of capital... Paroles. (That's how you probably view Bible verses, too.)     
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« Reply #81 on: January 23, 2013, 10:13:26 PM »

Don't just bring in red herrings. You know well that all contemporary traditionalist/conservative discourse originate not with the Optimates but with a reaction to the ideals of the French Revolution.
Evidently not, as American conservatism, your favorite target, predates the French Revolution.
Com'on. What some paleos think it's american conservatism (jefferson et co) is only a frozen piece of 18th century liberalism/progressivism. It's not like they have a throne and altar to rally their minions around.
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« Reply #82 on: January 23, 2013, 10:17:18 PM »

Yet true Communism has never really been tried.

The same argument can be made for Christianity - Fr. Alexander Men used to say that "Christianity is only just beginning":

http://www.editionsducerf.fr/html/fiche/fichelivre.asp?n_liv_cerf=4527
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« Reply #83 on: January 23, 2013, 10:20:08 PM »

The biblical and Orthodox understanding of Tradition should be considered in a different category than what many of the above posts describe, not at all incorrectly, as traditionalism. Holy Tradition as it is understood in the Eastern Church is congruent to but not reducible to such phenomena.

The Greek word and its cognates refer to something that is handed down or delivered/received. Some examples:

1 Cor 11:2: I commend you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered ["traditioned"] them to you.
1 Cor 11:23: For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread
2 Thess 2:15: So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.
2 Thess 3:6: "keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you received from us."
Gal 1:14: "I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries among my countrymen, being more extremely zealous for my ancestral traditions."

All major contemporary scholars would concur with the proposition tradition (apostolic tradition) existed prior to the composition of any New Testament book (e.g. 1 Cor 11:23; there are many examples in the NT and the relevant academic literature).

Although Protestantism and Roman Catholicism have historically discussed tradition as a separate category from scripture, Orthodox regard scripture as an *example* of tradition -something handed down- as was also common in the early fathers (e.g. Clement of Alexandria uses the phrase "as the scripture traditioned" G. L. Prestige, Fathers and Heretics, pp. 13f. citing strom I.21, 142.2, 7.18, 109.2).

This is quite in accord with NT usage which speaks of the Gospel itself as "traditioned":
1 Cor 15:1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
Cf. 1 Clem 42: "The message was delivered orally by our Lord to the apostles and was handed on orally by them to their successors."

There is, I think, a disparity between the paleo-orthodox view of tradition as something handed down and the Roman Catholic idea of tradition as something quite specifically located in the papal office, in the manner Pope Pius IX reflected when he said "I am Tradition"; cf. also Jaraslov Pelikan's statement "Pope Pius did not attempt to prove that the doctrine of the assumption was taught as such in scripture or confessed in the earliest documentary witnesses to the Christian and Catholic faith. Instead, he attached his promulgation of the dogma to the development of a tradition for which there is admittedly no authentic witness... among the Fathers of either the East or the West prior to the end of the fifth century" (Jaroslav Pelikan, Development of Christian Doctrine: Some Historical Prolegomenna (Yale, 1979), p. 38).

What is meant by Holy Tradition in Orthodox understanding is more than simply texts and teaching in a secular sense, incorporating the actual message, right worship, right prayer, and so on, not in the sense of hermeneutics, exegesis, and/or historical analysis (albeit not necessarily severed from such things by any means) but in the sense of theoria, which is to say that only those who live the Word through the Holy Spirit can know the Word and be receptacles or vehicles of Holy Tradition -as opposed to "mere traditions":

"Byzantines... presupposed a concept of Revelation which was substantially different from that held in the West. Because the concept of theologia in Byzantium ...was inseparable from theoria ("contemplation"), theology could not be -as it was in the West- a rational deduction from 'revealed' premises, i.e. from Scripture or from the statements of an ecclesiastical magisterium... Not that a rational deductive process was completely eliminated from theological thought, but it represented for the Byzantines the lowest and least reliable level of theology. The true theologian was the one who saw and experienced the content of theology; and this experience was considered to belong not to the intellect alone ...but to the 'eyes of the Spirit,' which place the whole man -intellect, emotions, and even sense- in contact with divine existence" (John Meyendorff, Byzantine Theology, pp. 8f.).

"Theoria is a 'spiritual perception of the one sent by God.. possible only to the believer' ("Theorao" in Arnt and Gingrich, eds., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Early Christian Literature, 1b). It is an insight into God's Word that cannot be received by one who is a 'fleshly' Christian, one whose diet consists of only milk, not meat (1 Cor 3:1-2). This one's spiritual senses will e numbed and handicapped (1 Cor 2:14) and will never be able to have his senses fine-tuned so as to discern Good and evil (Heb 5:13-14). The one with a theoritic vision has a heart trained to see Truth, a heart transformed by the Spirit toward purity and godliness. 'Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God' (Matt 5:8)" (cf. Jordan Bajis, Common Ground: An Introduction to Eastern Christianity for the American Christian, ch 7).

"The pure notion of Tradition can then be defined by saying that it is the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church, communicating to each member of the Body of Christ the faculty of hearing, of receiving, of knowing the Truth in the Light which belongs to it" -Vladimir Lossky, In the Image and Likeness of God, p. 152).
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« Reply #84 on: January 23, 2013, 10:22:11 PM »

I didn't wanna talk about tradition here. No sane man will deny there is such a thing and its inescapable, but about that byproduct first of the changes brought about by the French Revolution that is sometimes called traditionalism/integrism / conservatism even. And that sometimes was jus a lament for the lost privileges at times bitching about present some other times a political project to restore l'ancien Régine etc. And its very cartoonish Internet offshoots ,

The French Revolution was violent - it was bound to produce a violent reaction. Evil breeds evil.

There are different "traditions" which produce different types of traditionalisms. There are curious fusions and contaminations of ideas. Someone catches a bug overseas or reads some book by an crazy author and returns home and wants to start a revolution. The blind leading the blind. Why should one follow them? 'Change can only be for the better. It can get no worse than this.' It could and it did.

I just can't - for the life of me - understand why the ideology of the French Revolution needed to be exported everywhere as the optimal and universal model for progress, together with the machines of the Industrial Revolution. Why did that hatred need to become the new social religion of the masses? I just can't believe that the upper classes were all equally corrupt, evil and oppressive all throughout the world. There were more places where Communism was forcefully imposed (worse than Islam) than where it was peacefully embraced by the masses. You'll say that's how revolution works...    

History - progress - dynamics of capital... Paroles. (That's how you probably view Bible verses, too.)      
once the means of production change social relations follow suite.  You can't well wish it away. Although those that try are sometimes endearing.
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« Reply #85 on: January 23, 2013, 10:22:24 PM »

Yet true Communism has never really been tried.

The same argument can be made for Christianity - Fr. Alexander Men used to say that "Christianity is only just beginning":

http://www.editionsducerf.fr/html/fiche/fichelivre.asp?n_liv_cerf=4527
I agree with you.
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« Reply #86 on: January 23, 2013, 10:25:51 PM »

Don't just bring in red herrings. You know well that all contemporary traditionalist/conservative discourse originate not with the Optimates but with a reaction to the ideals of the French Revolution.
Evidently not, as American conservatism, your favorite target, predates the French Revolution.
Com'on. What some paleos think it's american conservatism (jefferson et co) is only a frozen piece of 18th century liberalism/progressivism. It's not like they have a throne and altar to rally their minions around.
Neither did the Optimates.  And yet there they were.

I can criticize the American conservatives (paleo and neocon) as not being conservative, but you can hardly do so, given your viewpoint.
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« Reply #87 on: January 23, 2013, 10:31:04 PM »

Yeah you can become a monarchist I guess defending the divine right of the Stuarts over the British throne and ergo USA. That would only be more cartoonish
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« Reply #88 on: January 23, 2013, 10:35:49 PM »

once the means of production change social relations follow suite.  You can't well wish it away. Although those that try are sometimes endearing.

When more people think alike, they may just wish things away, can't they? That's how revolutions work...

The means of production can still change and so can social relations.

There were societies where class struggle was not as sharp or unbearable to demand rebellions. Ideally, that's what we pray for in church: a peaceful, well-ordered, established society. That entails rulers (whether they be elected presidents or monarchs or emperors) and some sort of social order, not anarchy.

The dictatorship of the proletarians also had rulers: some were complete idiots, others were tyrannical brutes. Equally or even more oppressive than the "filthy burgeois"... God save us from them all!
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« Reply #89 on: January 23, 2013, 10:38:34 PM »

I didn't wanna talk about tradition here. No sane man will deny there is such a thing and its inescapable, but about that byproduct first of the changes brought about by the French Revolution that is sometimes called traditionalism/integrism / conservatism even. And that sometimes was jus a lament for the lost privileges at times bitching about present some other times a political project to restore l'ancien Régine etc. And its very cartoonish Internet offshoots ,

The French Revolution was violent - it was bound to produce a violent reaction. Evil breeds evil.

There are different "traditions" which produce different types of traditionalisms. There are curious fusions and contaminations of ideas. Someone catches a bug overseas or reads some book by an crazy author and returns home and wants to start a revolution. The blind leading the blind. Why should one follow them? 'Change can only be for the better. It can get no worse than this.' It could and it did.

I just can't - for the life of me - understand why the ideology of the French Revolution needed to be exported everywhere as the optimal and universal model for progress, together with the machines of the Industrial Revolution. Why did that hatred need to become the new social religion of the masses? I just can't believe that the upper classes were all equally corrupt, evil and oppressive all throughout the world. There were more places where Communism was forcefully imposed (worse than Islam) than where it was peacefully embraced by the masses. You'll say that's how revolution works...    

History - progress - dynamics of capital... Paroles. (That's how you probably view Bible verses, too.)      
once the means of production change social relations follow suite.  You can't well wish it away. Although those that try are sometimes endearing.
yeah, well, those of us living in the real world, and not in the theories of Marxist academicians, aren't bound by such presuppositions.

"means of production" and "social relations" I've found rather vaguely defined, too much so to make dogmatic pronouncements as to causation "following suite."
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« Reply #90 on: January 23, 2013, 10:39:50 PM »

Yeah you can become a monarchist I guess defending the divine right of the Stuarts over the British throne and ergo USA. That would only be more cartoonish
I could, but I haven't, and where does that leave your argument?
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« Reply #91 on: January 23, 2013, 10:44:58 PM »

once the means of production change social relations follow suite.  You can't well wish it away. Although those that try are sometimes endearing.

When more people think alike, they may just wish things away, can't they? That's how revolutions work...

The means of production can still change and so can social relations.

There were societies where class struggle was not as sharp or unbearable to demand rebellions. Ideally, that's what we pray for in church: a peaceful, well-ordered, established society. That entails rulers (whether they be elected presidents or monarchs or emperors) and some sort of social order, not anarchy.

The dictatorship of the proletarians also had rulers: some were complete idiots, others were tyrannical brutes. Equally or even more oppressive than the "filthy burgeois"... God save us from them all!
whats your political project ? Mine isn't turning the clock back to Stalin but I'm sincerely curious about yours. Other than outlaw gay parades?
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« Reply #92 on: January 23, 2013, 10:53:54 PM »

once the means of production change social relations follow suite.  You can't well wish it away. Although those that try are sometimes endearing.

When more people think alike, they may just wish things away, can't they? That's how revolutions work...

The means of production can still change and so can social relations.

There were societies where class struggle was not as sharp or unbearable to demand rebellions. Ideally, that's what we pray for in church: a peaceful, well-ordered, established society. That entails rulers (whether they be elected presidents or monarchs or emperors) and some sort of social order, not anarchy.

The dictatorship of the proletarians also had rulers: some were complete idiots, others were tyrannical brutes. Equally or even more oppressive than the "filthy burgeois"... God save us from them all!
whats your political project ? Mine isn't turning the clock back to Stalin but I'm sincerely curious about yours. Other than outlaw gay parades?
and this thread wasn't started in politics why?

So, you just want to go back to Ceausescu?
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« Reply #93 on: January 23, 2013, 10:57:36 PM »

whats your political project ?

I don't have one - Romanians are traditionally apolitical in their homeland. We import political ideologies (kings also!) from abroad that nobody gives a damn about, pretend to 'implement' them and then passively endure the consequences. We are resigned pessimists.

Mine isn't turning the clock back to Stalin

For some reasons, after hearing your opinions on the "filthy burgeois", I couldn't trust you on that.

Other than outlaw gay parades?

They don't bug me that much, to tell you the truth. I wouldn't join one, but I'd forbid foreigners to come join them in Romania. I'd check all the participants' ID and only allow them to march if they were born and bred in the homeland. Every country is blessed with its own minorities - they should suffice.
   

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« Reply #94 on: January 23, 2013, 11:02:59 PM »

And perhaps building a desert as Romania doesn't have one naturally where truly radical stuff can happen. Or perhaps Gabriel mining corporation will do that as a bonus.
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« Reply #95 on: January 23, 2013, 11:07:52 PM »

And perhaps building a desert as Romania doesn't have one naturally where truly radical stuff can happen. Or perhaps Gabriel mining corporation will do that as a bonus.

Oh, forests and mountains serve our needs for solitude all right.

I'm not a fan of 'truly radical stuff'.

I'd do anything in my power to stop those guys. Unfortunately, the only people allowed to vote for/against it were the inhabitants of Alba. Still, less than 50% voted, so the referendum wasn't valid.

Mining for gold should be forbidden altogether. I'd much rather we stayed poor and underdeveloped than do that to our country.

That doesn't make for a political project, though.
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« Reply #96 on: January 23, 2013, 11:11:38 PM »

I would venture that you are essentially correct on the first point- employing what I deem to be the common understanding of the genealogy of what we call traditionalism- though it would still be helpful for all of us if you might propose a working definition of the 'traditionalism' you take aim at.

As I understand it, you are here considering a complex of ideas, generated mostly from 18th-19th C. Reactionary thought in opposition to the ideals of the French Revolution? And how is it that the second point follows from the first? Are there not still ways to fruitfully engage with this perspective without devolving into outright obscurantism? It seems to me that Reactionary/ Traditionalist thought may have more varied permutations than your reductionist perspective admits of.

Why should we give the Progressivist/ Enlightenment side of the coin all of the benefit of the doubt, while refusing to extend the same charity to the other side in our approach to the problems of modern life?

The example you give (the photograph) does not exhaust its possible trajectories.

It strikes me that this thread may have began with the erection of a straw man.
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« Reply #97 on: January 23, 2013, 11:20:23 PM »

Yes reactionary thought is indeed varied and also persistent. It has been able to re-invent itself  for over 200 years. When starting this thread-actually what prompted me- was some cartoonish stuff I saw on the internet. Hence yeah, I can see the straw-man too. I was aware of that.
So would you say it's correct to say that what unifies different strains conservatism at the most basic lebvel is a defense of existing hierarchies?
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« Reply #98 on: January 23, 2013, 11:29:06 PM »

Yes reactionary thought is indeed varied and also persistent. It has been able to re-invent itself  for over 200 years.

Weren't you for diversity and freedom of thought and opinion?

So would you say it's correct to say that what unifies different strains conservatism at the most basic level is a defense of existing hierarchies?

That would allow for left-wing conservatives defending the hierarchy of the Party, wouldn't it? Such "Communist conservatives" of the old guard still exist in places like the Republic of Moldavia.

Leaving that unholy and accursed hierarchy aside, why would a hierarchy be inherently evil or undesirable?
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« Reply #99 on: January 23, 2013, 11:50:08 PM »

Yes reactionary thought is indeed varied and also persistent. It has been able to re-invent itself  for over 200 years. When starting this thread-actually what prompted me- was some cartoonish stuff I saw on the internet. Hence yeah, I can see the straw-man too. I was aware of that.
So would you say it's correct to say that what unifies different strains conservatism at the most basic lebvel is a defense of existing hierarchies?

Uncertain. I can see where that definition imposes some unnecessary constraints. That is, I see no reason for it to be limited to upholding existing hierarchies. It can be more historically discontinuous. But generally, yes, I see conservatism as looking for enduring constants in human experience and institutions that it regards as viable for the present; some form of hierarchy is generally admitted as desirable on the basis of that orientation.
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« Reply #100 on: January 23, 2013, 11:53:38 PM »

I would venture that you are essentially correct on the first point- employing what I deem to be the common understanding of the genealogy of what we call traditionalism- though it would still be helpful for all of us if you might propose a working definition of the 'traditionalism' you take aim at.

As I understand it, you are here considering a complex of ideas, generated mostly from 18th-19th C. Reactionary thought in opposition to the ideals of the French Revolution? And how is it that the second point follows from the first? Are there not still ways to fruitfully engage with this perspective without devolving into outright obscurantism? It seems to me that Reactionary/ Traditionalist thought may have more varied permutations than your reductionist perspective admits of.

Why should we give the Progressivist/ Enlightenment side of the coin all of the benefit of the doubt, while refusing to extend the same charity to the other side in our approach to the problems of modern life?

The example you give (the photograph) does not exhaust its possible trajectories.

It strikes me that this thread may have began with the erection of a straw man.

I could swear that there is some Romanian Festival where they they dress up in straw coats.
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« Reply #101 on: January 23, 2013, 11:57:04 PM »

TRADITIONALIST: One who challenges the novel practices and teachings of Catholics (including bishops and priests) which appear to contradict the prior teaching of the Church. A traditionalist questions the prudence of new pastoral approaches and holds the belief that those things generally deemed objectively good or evil several decades ago remain so today.
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« Reply #102 on: January 24, 2013, 12:02:13 AM »

Yes reactionary thought is indeed varied and also persistent. It has been able to re-invent itself  for over 200 years. When starting this thread-actually what prompted me- was some cartoonish stuff I saw on the internet. Hence yeah, I can see the straw-man too. I was aware of that.
So would you say it's correct to say that what unifies different strains conservatism at the most basic lebvel is a defense of existing hierarchies?

Uncertain. I can see where that definition imposes some unnecessary constraints. That is, I see no reason for it to be limited to upholding existing hierarchies. It can be more historically discontinuous. But generally, yes, I see conservatism as looking for enduring constants in human experience and institutions that it regards as viable for the present; some form of hierarchy is generally admitted as desirable on the basis of that orientation.
Conservatism consists in the orientation to subsume change within the existing or preceding (real or imagined) order, rather than favoring conforming it to change (liberalism).  that goes for more than just the hierarchy, as you indicate.
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« Reply #103 on: January 24, 2013, 12:11:20 AM »

Yes reactionary thought is indeed varied and also persistent. It has been able to re-invent itself  for over 200 years. When starting this thread-actually what prompted me- was some cartoonish stuff I saw on the internet. Hence yeah, I can see the straw-man too. I was aware of that.
So would you say it's correct to say that what unifies different strains conservatism at the most basic lebvel is a defense of existing hierarchies?

Uncertain. I can see where that definition imposes some unnecessary constraints. That is, I see no reason for it to be limited to upholding existing hierarchies. It can be more historically discontinuous. But generally, yes, I see conservatism as looking for enduring constants in human experience and institutions that it regards as viable for the present; some form of hierarchy is generally admitted as desirable on the basis of that orientation.
Conservatism consists in the orientation to subsume change within the existing or preceding (real or imagined) order, rather than favoring conforming it to change (liberalism).  that goes for more than just the hierarchy, as you indicate.
But what exactly are liberals trying to conform the order to change, since that order is already existing, according to you.

And what order are you talking about?

There is disorder all around us.
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« Reply #104 on: January 24, 2013, 12:33:34 AM »

Yes reactionary thought is indeed varied and also persistent. It has been able to re-invent itself  for over 200 years. When starting this thread-actually what prompted me- was some cartoonish stuff I saw on the internet. Hence yeah, I can see the straw-man too. I was aware of that.
So would you say it's correct to say that what unifies different strains conservatism at the most basic lebvel is a defense of existing hierarchies?

Uncertain. I can see where that definition imposes some unnecessary constraints. That is, I see no reason for it to be limited to upholding existing hierarchies. It can be more historically discontinuous. But generally, yes, I see conservatism as looking for enduring constants in human experience and institutions that it regards as viable for the present; some form of hierarchy is generally admitted as desirable on the basis of that orientation.
Conservatism consists in the orientation to subsume change within the existing or preceding (real or imagined) order, rather than favoring conforming it to change (liberalism).  that goes for more than just the hierarchy, as you indicate.

Agreed. I think we have share consensus on this. However, I fear we have moved no closer to the intent of the OP which was aimed at the critique of a certain sort of 'traditionalism', which has yet to be defined. Perhaps through enumeration of certain concrete examples in thought and behavior (besides the one provided) the OP could help bring us towards an elaboration of the concept before we proceed to deconstructing it? I am really interested in this.
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« Reply #105 on: January 24, 2013, 12:50:08 AM »

Yes reactionary thought is indeed varied and also persistent. It has been able to re-invent itself  for over 200 years. When starting this thread-actually what prompted me- was some cartoonish stuff I saw on the internet. Hence yeah, I can see the straw-man too. I was aware of that.
So would you say it's correct to say that what unifies different strains conservatism at the most basic lebvel is a defense of existing hierarchies?

Uncertain. I can see where that definition imposes some unnecessary constraints. That is, I see no reason for it to be limited to upholding existing hierarchies. It can be more historically discontinuous. But generally, yes, I see conservatism as looking for enduring constants in human experience and institutions that it regards as viable for the present; some form of hierarchy is generally admitted as desirable on the basis of that orientation.
Conservatism consists in the orientation to subsume change within the existing or preceding (real or imagined) order, rather than favoring conforming it to change (liberalism).  that goes for more than just the hierarchy, as you indicate.
But what exactly are liberals trying to conform the order to change, since that order is already existing, according to you.

And what order are you talking about?

There is disorder all around us.
We were talking overarching analogies.

But to get to a specific example:the US Founding Fathers (I know that they are connected to the present day conservatives: most successful liberals form a conservative block once they have gotten their way) tried-and succeeded-in conforming the already existing order to the change in autonomy of the colonies, i.e. they had become more or less self sufficient.  That wasn't necessary. The Loyalists  knew that, and the Canadians continued in the already existing order until patriation of their consitution in 1982.  In fact, they did the opposite of the Continental Congress: the Canadian parliament specifically requested to continue political dependence on London in 1931.

Oddly enough, the Canadian Constitutional crisis came when Liberal PM King made a conservative argument to the Governor-General Byng to consult the Colonial Office, the King-Byng-Thing.  But then I never accuse Liberals of consistency.
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« Reply #106 on: January 24, 2013, 03:54:07 AM »

Yes reactionary thought is indeed varied and also persistent. It has been able to re-invent itself  for over 200 years. When starting this thread-actually what prompted me- was some cartoonish stuff I saw on the internet. Hence yeah, I can see the straw-man too. I was aware of that.
So would you say it's correct to say that what unifies different strains conservatism at the most basic lebvel is a defense of existing hierarchies?

Uncertain. I can see where that definition imposes some unnecessary constraints. That is, I see no reason for it to be limited to upholding existing hierarchies. It can be more historically discontinuous. But generally, yes, I see conservatism as looking for enduring constants in human experience and institutions that it regards as viable for the present; some form of hierarchy is generally admitted as desirable on the basis of that orientation.
Conservatism consists in the orientation to subsume change within the existing or preceding (real or imagined) order, rather than favoring conforming it to change (liberalism).  that goes for more than just the hierarchy, as you indicate.

Agreed. I think we have share consensus on this. However, I fear we have moved no closer to the intent of the OP which was aimed at the critique of a certain sort of 'traditionalism', which has yet to be defined. Perhaps through enumeration of certain concrete examples in thought and behavior (besides the one provided) the OP could help bring us towards an elaboration of the concept before we proceed to deconstructing it? I am really interested in this.
I can't speak to augustine's idiosyncratic and idealogically driven definition of "traditionalism," but to add what I've posted

To save this thread from its OP:

Traditionalism: the dead world of the living; the orientation of keeping a fossil on life support indefinitely, resisting any signs of life, growth and change.
I would say that any number of émigré communities provide an excellent source of material through which to thresh out the idea.  My favorite example would be the ROCOR émigré community.  Neither all ROCOR parishioners nor all émigrés fell within the definition. I'm thinking of those who I used to define (before the Act of Canonical Communion, when they just became schismatic) as those who would rather have their right arm wretched out of its socket rather than write a word without a "hard sign"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_sign#Old_Russian:_Yer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yat#Russian
and expected that once the Soviet Union fell any day (on the Old Calendar, of course), the Holy Governing Synod in exile would be installed in Moscow and the Romanov pretender would take the throne.  All of which are prime examples of traditionalism, as the spelling reforms had long been advocated under the Czars and had been implemented before the Bolsheviks took over, the restoration of the Patriarchate had been in the works before the Czar fell and was restored the Bolsheviks took over, and the Romanovs had fallen from power and the throne had been offered to other noble houses before Kerensky and his socialist coalition proclaimed Russia a republic.  Even if Lvov retained the government, the world that these ROCOR émigrés tried to maintain in exile would not have existed in Holy Mother Russia.

Émigrés do not have to be so wedded to tradition for tradition's sake to prove something.  Charles X's traditionalism (with its insistence at a coronation with all the pomp in Rheims after the restoration) contrasted with Louis Philippe I's conservatism (with its resumption of the title "King of the French" (as opposed to the feudal "of France and of Navarre") of Lois XVI's phase of rule as a constitutional monarch), which had come out of the latter's liberal agitation for a constitutional monarchy under the  Ancien Régime.  This was epitomized by the preamble of the Constition of the Bourbon Restoration:
Quote
Louis, by the grace of God, King of France and Navarre, to all those to whom these presents come, greeting.

Divine Providence, in recalling us to our estates after a long absence, has laid upon us great obligations. Peace was the first need of our subjects: we have employed ourselves thereto without relaxation; and that peace, so necessary for France, as well as for the remainder of Europe, is signed. A constitutional charter was called for by the actual condition of the kingdom; we promised it, and we now publish it. We have taken into consideration that, although all authority in France resides in the person of the king, our predecessors have not hesitated to alter the exercise thereof in accordance with the change of the times: that it was in this manner that the communes owed their emancipation to Louis, the Fat, the confirmation and extension of their rights to Saint Louis and Philip the Fair; that the judicial system was established and developed by the laws of Louis XI, Henry II and Charles IX; and finally, that Louis XIV regulated almost all parts of the public administration by various ordinances whose wisdom nothing has yet surpassed.

We are bound, by the example of the kings, our predecessors, to estimate the effects of the ever increasing progress of enlightenment, the new relations which these advances have introduced into society, the direction impressed upon opinions during the past half century, and the significant alterations which have resulted therefrom: we have recognized that the wish of our subjects for a constitutional charter was the expression of a real need; but, in yielding to this wish, we have taken every precaution that this charter should be worthy of us and of the people over whom we are proud to rule. Sagacious men taken from the highest body of the state met with commissioners of our council to labor upon this important work.

While we have recognized that a free and monarchical constitution was necessary to meet the expectation of enlightened Europe, We have also been constrained to remember that our first duty towards our subjects was to preserve, in their own interest, the rights and prerogatives of our crown. We have hoped that, taught by experience, they may be convinced that only the supreme authority can give to institutions which it establishes the strength, permanence, and majesty with which it is itself invested; that thus, when the wisdom of the king freely coincides with the wish of the people, a constitutional charter can be of long duration; but that, when violence wrests concessions from the feebleness of the government, public liberty is not less in danger than the throne itself. In a word, we have sought the principles of the constitutional charter in the French character and in the enduring examples of past ages. Thus, we have seen, in the renewal of the peerage, an institution truly national and one which must bind all the recollections with all the hopes, in bringing together former and present times.

We have replaced by the Chamber of Deputies those former assemblies of the fields of March and May, and those chambers of the Third Estate, which so often gave at the same time proof of zeal for the interests of the people and of fidelity and respect for the authority of the king. In thus attempting to renew the chain of the times, which disastrous errors have broken, we have banished from our recollection, as we could wish it were possible to blot out from history, all the evils which have afflicted the fatherland during our absence. Happy to find ourselves once more in the bosom of our great family, we have felt that we could respond to the love of which we have received so many testimonials, only by pronouncing words of peace and consolation. The dearest wish of our heart is that all Frenchmen should live as brothers, and that no bitter recollection should ever disturb the security that must follow the solemn act which we grant them to-day.

Assured of our intentions, and strengthened by our conscience, we pledge ourselves, in the presence of the assembly which hears us, to be faithful to this constitutional charter, reserving to ourselves to swear to maintain it with a new solemnity, before the altars of Him who weighs in the same balance kings and nations.

For these reasons,

We have voluntarily, and by the free exercise of our royal authority, accorded and do accord, grant and concede to our subjects, as well for us as for our successors forever, the constitutional charter which follows:
http://www.napoleon-series.org/research/government/legislation/c_charter.html
which could have been merely traditional, if its traditionalist implementation by the Bourbons did not prove otherwise.  Contrast the tradition based Charter that Louis Philippe accepted with the throne:
Quote
The chamber of deputies, taking into consideration the imperious necessity which results from the events of the 26th, 27th, 28th and 29th of July, and the following days; and from the situation in which France is placed in consequence of the violation of the constitutional charter:

Considering, moreover, that by this violation, and the heroic resistance of the citizens of Paris, his majesty Charles X., his royal highness Louis Antoine, dauphin, and all the members of the senior branch of the royal house, are leaving, at this moment, the French territory—

Declares that the throne is vacant de facto et de jure, and that it is necessary to fill it.

The chamber of deputies declares secondly, that according to the wish, and for the interest of the French people, the preamble of the constitutional charter is suppressed, as wounding the national dignity in appearing to grant to the French rights which essentially belong to them; and that the following articles of the same charter ought to be suppressed or modified in the following manner.

Louis Philippe, King of the French, to all to whom these presents shall come, greeting:

We have ordained and ordain, that the constitutional charter of 1814, as amended by the two chambers on the 7th August, and adopted by us on the 9th, be published anew in the following terms:
http://oll.libertyfund.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=863&Itemid=264
Basically, the traditionalist's approach to current reality is to pretend that it hasn't happened, and to convince itself of that by strident reaffirmation of its idealized past, epitomized by Henry V, the heir of Charles X supported by Louis Philippe's heir, loosing the French throne after the fall of the Second French Empire, by insisting that France take down the tricolor and raise up the fleur de lys as its standard.  The royalist majority of France had to proclaim the Third Republic, so far France's longest lasting-although it was founded as a temporary care taker regime until Henry came to his senses. Instead, he became the father of the French Republic (as its presidents pointed out) and doomed the French monarchy with his manifesto of July 5, 1871:
Quote
Frenchmen!
I am in the midst of you

You have opened the doors of France, and I could not deny myself the pleasure of seeing again my homeland. [the Assembly had just let emigres return]

But I do not want to give by my prolonged presence, new pretexts for the agitation of minds so disturbed now.

I leave this Chambord that you gave me and whose name I wore with pride, for forty years, one the paths of exile.

As I walk away, I would like to tell you, I do not separate myself from you; France knows that I belong to it.

I can not forget that monarchist right is the heritage of the nation or decline the duties it imposes on me to it.

These duties, I will act, believe my word as an honest man and king [this was the first time Henri V assumed the title].

God willing, we will build together, and when you wish, on the broad foundation of administrative decentralization and local franchises, a government according to the real needs of the country.

We will give guarantee to these public freedoms to which all Christian people needs, universal suffrage honestly practiced and control of both houses, and resume, by restoring its veritable character, the national movement of the end of the last century.

A minority rebelled against the wishes of the country, made the starting point of a period of demoralization by falsehood and disruption by violence. Their criminal attacks have forced to a revolution a nation that only called for reforms, and have therefore pushed towards the abyss yesterday where she would have persihed, without the heroic efforts of our army.

These are the working class, these workers in the fields and cities whose fate has been my liveliest preoccupation and my dearest studies, which have suffered from this social disorder.

But France, cruelly disillusioned by disasters without parrallel, will understand that does not come back to the truth in changing error, that one can not escape by expedients eternal necessities.

It will call me, and I will come to it as a whole, with my devotion, my principle and my flag.

On the occasion of this flag, one spoke about conditions that I should not suffer.

Frenchmen!  I am ready to do anything to help my country rise from its ruins and take again its proper place in the world.  I am prepared to sacrifice everything for my country, except my honor.

I am, and wish to be, a man of my time.  I render sincere homage to all of France's grandeurs.  Whatever the color of the flag under which our soldiers marched, I have always admired their heroism and given thanks to God for everything that their bravery has added to the treasury of the glories of France.

Between you and me, there should e no misunderstandings and nothing hidden.

Just because there has been ignorant and credulous talk of privileges, absolutism, or intolerance - and, what else - of tithes and feudal rights -phantoms which the most audacious dishonesty attempts to revive before your eyes, I will not allow the standard of Henry IV, Francis I, and Joan of Arc to be snatched from my hands.

It was with this standard that national unity was achieved, it was with this standard that your ancestors, led by my ancestors, conquered Alsace and Lorraine, whose loyalty will be the consolation of our misfortunes.

This standard conquered barbarism in Africa and witnessed the first feats of arms of the princes of my family, and this standard will conquer the new barbarism which threatens the world! I will entrust this standard to the valor of our army, which knows that the standard has followed only the path of honor.

I received this standard as a sacred trust from the old king, my grandfather, dying in exile.  For me, the standard has always been
inseparable from the absent fatherland; it flew over my cradle, and I want it to cover my tomb.

In the glorious folds of this standard without stain, I will bring you order and liberty.

Frenchmen—Henri V. cannot abandon .the white flag of Henry IV

On those "paths of exile", Henri his personally designed flag, oddly enough, was traditional, not traditionalist.


So too the restoration in Romania, Russia, etc. of the national symbols (flage, coat of arms, etc.) of the former monarchies before the socialist/people's republics, and the adoption of the Libyan Revolution of a flag based on the Libyan monarchy.  Traditional, but not traditionalist.
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« Reply #107 on: January 24, 2013, 04:17:59 AM »

Now let's see whether any conservative movement can be an agen of change and emancipation . I mean not in the abstract but in real history.
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« Reply #108 on: January 24, 2013, 04:40:38 AM »

Now let's see whether any conservative movement can be an agen of change and emancipation . I mean not in the abstract but in real history.

The Lei Áurea "Golden Law" issued by the Empire of Brazil abolishing slavery, in two articles:
Quote
Law No. 3353 of 13 of May 1888
Declares slavery extinguished in Brazil :
The Princess Imperial Regent, in the Name of His Majesty the Emperor, the Lord D. Pedro II, makes known to all subjects of the Empire that the General Assembly has decided and sanctioned the following law:
Article 1: From this date, slavery is declared abolished in Brazil.
Article 2: All dispositions to the contrary are revoked.
Mandates therefore all authorities, to whom the knowledge and implementation of this law belong to meet, and enforce and guard as fully as it contains.
The Secretary of State for Agriculture, Commerce and Public Works and Acting Foreign Affairs, Bachelor Rodrigo Augusto da Silva, the Council of His Majesty the Emperor, does print, publish and circulate.
Given at the Palace of Rio de Janeiro, on 13 May 1888, 67 of Independence and of the Empire.
[Signatures of the] Princess Imperial Regent.
Rodrigo Augusto da Silva
Letter of the law, by which Your Imperial Highness sends execute the decree of the General Assembly, who saw fit to sanction, declaring abolished slavery in Brazil, as it is stated.
For Your Imperial Highness to see.
Chancellery chief of the Empire - Antonio Ferreira Viana.
Transited on May 13, 1888. - José Júlio de Albuque
The slave owners retaliated by overthrowing the government and proclaiming a republic, trying to connect it the American and French revolutions, although it had connections to neither.


Btw, sleeping easier now that the mortal remains of the only European monarch on US soil has now been removed?
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« Reply #109 on: January 24, 2013, 05:33:35 AM »

For some traditionalism

That's Chicago City Hall.


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« Reply #110 on: January 24, 2013, 06:46:54 AM »

Off the cuff, since it's quite an amorphous reality, traditionalism seems to me the (reactionary) ideology that one can create nice little islands of archaism that can be insulated from the social and economic forces shaping our contemporary world.

You mean sin?
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« Reply #111 on: January 24, 2013, 06:47:50 AM »

Thesis: Traditionalism is a thoroughly modern phenomenon.

Well, wouldn't it take time for something to be a tradition, i.e., only recently being recognized as such?
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« Reply #112 on: January 24, 2013, 06:49:45 AM »

Quote
The radical antidote? A fortnight in the desert. Or a lifetime.       
Although I really like deserts I do not see how fleeing from human society is a solution. It might be extreme yes, but not a solution.

I would like to introduce you to the desert fathers many of which are saints.
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« Reply #113 on: January 24, 2013, 06:50:13 AM »

Also traditionalism-as it is plenty clear on this board and the blogosphere-can be a longing/melancholia that prejudices have changed.

Define prejudices.
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« Reply #114 on: January 24, 2013, 06:53:36 AM »

Let me be clear that I although "modernity" can be a very nebulous concept, for me it's shorthand for largely progressive, leftist movements toward greater liberty: economic, social, political. But also the present economic  structure of global capitalism that is liberty's enemy in the end.
Meh. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #115 on: January 24, 2013, 06:54:25 AM »

I still do not know who or what are you discussing.

I have an idea, but I prefer him to reveal it himself.
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« Reply #116 on: January 24, 2013, 06:56:13 AM »

Quote
human animal

While I cannot force you to stop, I do ask politely you no longer use this phrase.  It really bothers me.  A simple "human" is fine.
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« Reply #117 on: January 24, 2013, 06:56:41 AM »

Why is it all important for nearly all self-described "traditionalists" to oppose women's rights, gay rights, worker's rights, immigration, Gypsies etc etc? For some pater familias to feel like he's big and has got power? In the end I think so...On the micro-level I mean. In the macro it's all about the power of capital to easily dispose people as needed by the demands of it's inner logic.

Define "right"
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« Reply #118 on: January 24, 2013, 06:58:02 AM »

I still do not know who or what are you discussing.
Trying at least to talk about what fuels movements and individuals self-described as "traditional(ist)".

I think of myself as a traditionalist however many of people here can think of me as liberal. These are very subjective terms.
From what you write here I never thought of you as a "traditionalist" in the sense discussed here.
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« Reply #119 on: January 24, 2013, 06:58:49 AM »

Quote
So, to quote one of your 'favourite' authors: "What is lost when something is gained?"   
Perhaps some idyllism, that never was as idyllic to begin with is lost, like a nice home-loomed shirt. What is gained? Berhaps more women getting to have a say in whom they marry? I think it's not a terrible exchange. Neither do some of those that tasted that, think so.

Culture is lost. I'd rather have people wearing traditional clothes, eating home-made food and speaking their native language than whole world wearing jeans, eating McFood and speakind American English

Me too!
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« Reply #120 on: January 24, 2013, 07:01:04 AM »

Unlike you I do not look at a past epoch to be reproduced here and now.

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.
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« Reply #121 on: January 24, 2013, 07:07:44 AM »

Yeah you can become a monarchist I guess defending the divine right of the Stuarts over the British throne and ergo USA. That would only be more cartoonish
Boy, do you jump around a lot.

You are a progressive liberal…we get it…and for the most part, don’t care…and this isn’t the politics forum.
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« Reply #122 on: January 24, 2013, 02:24:51 PM »

Yeah you can become a monarchist I guess defending the divine right of the Stuarts over the British throne and ergo USA. That would only be more cartoonish
Boy, do you jump around a lot.
Yes, he spends a lot of time demonstrating that the "progressive" liberals are a squirmy and slippery lot.
You are a progressive liberal…we get it…and for the most part, don’t care…and this isn’t the politics forum.
Few things are more amusing than being called cartoonish by a cartoon.
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« Reply #123 on: January 24, 2013, 02:53:54 PM »

Yeah you can become a monarchist I guess defending the divine right of the Stuarts over the British throne and ergo USA. That would only be more cartoonish
Boy, do you jump around a lot.
Yes, he spends a lot of time demonstrating that the "progressive" liberals are a squirmy and slippery lot.
You are a progressive liberal…we get it…and for the most part, don’t care…and this isn’t the politics forum.
Few things are more amusing than being called cartoonish by a cartoon.
At least on us-not talking about myself here- but some other party members Someone is keeping an eye on. I doubt the establishment feels in any way the same about your kind.
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« Reply #124 on: January 24, 2013, 04:58:14 PM »

Quote
So, to quote one of your 'favourite' authors: "What is lost when something is gained?"  
Perhaps some idyllism, that never was as idyllic to begin with is lost, like a nice home-loomed shirt. What is gained? Berhaps more women getting to have a say in whom they marry? I think it's not a terrible exchange. Neither do some of those that tasted that, think so.

Culture is lost. I'd rather have people wearing traditional clothes, eating home-made food and speaking their native language than whole world wearing jeans, eating McFood and speakind American English
Me too!
+1
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« Reply #125 on: January 24, 2013, 04:59:30 PM »

Yeah you can become a monarchist I guess defending the divine right of the Stuarts over the British throne and ergo USA. That would only be more cartoonish
Boy, do you jump around a lot.
Yes, he spends a lot of time demonstrating that the "progressive" liberals are a squirmy and slippery lot.
You are a progressive liberal…we get it…and for the most part, don’t care…and this isn’t the politics forum.
Few things are more amusing than being called cartoonish by a cartoon.
At least on us-not talking about myself here- but some other party members Someone is keeping an eye on. I doubt the establishment feels in any way the same about your kind.
we don't need a martyr complex for validation.
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« Reply #126 on: January 24, 2013, 05:02:56 PM »

Forgot that u think u have already martyred by the liberal media
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« Reply #127 on: January 24, 2013, 05:03:17 PM »

Thesis: Traditionalism is a thoroughly modern phenomenon.

Well, wouldn't it take time for something to be a tradition, i.e., only recently being recognized as such?
Not as much as you might expect. Hobsbawm and Ranger gave many in "The Invention of Tradition."   Examples that would stick in augustine's craw would be the monarchies of Romania and Greece, and American nationality.
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« Reply #128 on: January 24, 2013, 05:03:51 PM »

Quote
So, to quote one of your 'favourite' authors: "What is lost when something is gained?"  
Perhaps some idyllism, that never was as idyllic to begin with is lost, like a nice home-loomed shirt. What is gained? Berhaps more women getting to have a say in whom they marry? I think it's not a terrible exchange. Neither do some of those that tasted that, think so.

Culture is lost. I'd rather have people wearing traditional clothes, eating home-made food and speaking their native language than whole world wearing jeans, eating McFood and speakind American English
Me too!
+1
That's really dumb. My "culture" is American. I eat "McFood" and wear jeans. I don't care what my ancestry is and have no desire to preserve any of it's "culture" in America.

Oh and I speak American English because I'm American.
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« Reply #129 on: January 24, 2013, 05:04:40 PM »

Forgot that u think u have already martyred by the liberal media
Hardly. We're still alive.  And kicking their posterior in ratings
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« Reply #130 on: January 24, 2013, 05:06:09 PM »

Quote
So, to quote one of your 'favourite' authors: "What is lost when something is gained?"  
Perhaps some idyllism, that never was as idyllic to begin with is lost, like a nice home-loomed shirt. What is gained? Berhaps more women getting to have a say in whom they marry? I think it's not a terrible exchange. Neither do some of those that tasted that, think so.

Culture is lost. I'd rather have people wearing traditional clothes, eating home-made food and speaking their native language than whole world wearing jeans, eating McFood and speakind American English
Me too!
+1
That's really dumb. My "culture" is American. I eat "McFood" and wear jeans. I don't care what my ancestry is and have no desire to preserve any of it's "culture" in America.

Oh and I speak American English because I'm American.
Alpo was referring to those of us who are not.
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« Reply #131 on: January 24, 2013, 05:14:35 PM »

Those of us no the Northside of Chicago. The North Bank
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« Reply #132 on: January 24, 2013, 05:25:30 PM »

Those of us no the Northside of Chicago. The North Bank
any post you responding to, or just another shot in the dark?
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« Reply #133 on: January 24, 2013, 05:32:18 PM »

Quote
So, to quote one of your 'favourite' authors: "What is lost when something is gained?"  
Perhaps some idyllism, that never was as idyllic to begin with is lost, like a nice home-loomed shirt. What is gained? Berhaps more women getting to have a say in whom they marry? I think it's not a terrible exchange. Neither do some of those that tasted that, think so.

Culture is lost. I'd rather have people wearing traditional clothes, eating home-made food and speaking their native language than whole world wearing jeans, eating McFood and speakind American English
Me too!
+1
That's really dumb. My "culture" is American. I eat "McFood" and wear jeans. I don't care what my ancestry is and have no desire to preserve any of it's "culture" in America.

Oh and I speak American English because I'm American.
Alpo was referring to those of us who are not.
And you are not American because?

Wasn't there a debate on this same thing a few months ago?
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« Reply #134 on: January 24, 2013, 05:36:13 PM »

Alpo was referring to those of us who are not.

Correct. American culture is nice (if such thing exists. I tend to think cultures existing in smaller units than whole countries.) but other cultures are nice too.
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« Reply #135 on: January 24, 2013, 05:39:48 PM »

In my opinion “traditionalism” is not a problem, if people will not be fanatic and obsessed about it.
The most important that we don`t have a right to change God`s commandments on human traditions.
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« Reply #136 on: January 24, 2013, 05:57:46 PM »

@augustin717, so how do you describe a traditionalist?

Traditionalist and modernist, along with liberal and conservative, istm, are terms that are so poorly understood and subjective as to be impossible to discuss. So if you consider yourself a conservative, everyone who doesn't agree with you is a liberal, and vice versa.
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« Reply #137 on: January 24, 2013, 07:18:15 PM »

Thank you for all who contributed to the task of defining this elusive 'traditionalism.' It appears, unfortunately, that the thread has dissolved long ago into the voicing of party lines, with each member talking past one another on the basis of implicit positions (probably articulated long ago for all I know, as I am new to this forum.)

To address but one point among many, so that I am clear from what perspective people are speaking from:

Augustin, you said:

Quote
At least on us-not talking about myself here- but some other party members Someone is keeping an eye on. I doubt the establishment feels in any way the same about your kind.

What party are you referring to here?

For what it is worth, since I am asking people to reveal a bit about their orientation, I am not partial to any party but I am sympathetic to the insights of Eric Voegelin:

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/know-your-gnostics/

and Thomas Molnar:

http://www.firstprinciplesjournal.com/articles.aspx?article=359&loc=fs

Men of the right, it could be argued, but I think their perspectives are broader, and can provide a corrective to much of the polarization of discourse about modernity and its prospects.
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« Reply #138 on: January 24, 2013, 08:24:28 PM »

Alpo was referring to those of us who are not.

Correct. American culture is nice (if such thing exists. I tend to think cultures existing in smaller units than whole countries.) but other cultures are nice too.
There are a lot of smaller units of American culture (Southern, New England, Midwest, Californian, etc.)  In many ways speaking of American culture is like speaking of European culture.

I'd be curious: is there any awareness in Finland of the Finnish culture here?  There are large parts where, at least up to a decade ago, everyone spoke Finnish.
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« Reply #139 on: January 24, 2013, 09:52:15 PM »

What you understand by 'traditionalism' - the naive reconstruction and reenactment of some ideal space/time (correct me if I don't catch your drift) - may be a means of coping with an alienating and at times hostile environment.

Mystification is a naturally occurring process for human animals. You'd have no sort of culture without it. It isn't inherently evil. May become so if people confine themselves to such a phantasy world of their own so as to no longer be able to communicate/interact with the world at large.

I would think you put what's on display in that photo on a par with 'Orthodoxy in Dixie' and many such-like phenomena. With the risk of shocking some, I would throw in theatres, opera-houses, musea, gay parades, bars, Disneyland, country clubs, hobbit houses, movies and so on, and so on. All of them are attempts at creating pockets of utopia in a grey, old and increasingly bored world. They all filter people according to arbitrary preferences or characteristics.

The radical antidote? A fortnight in the desert. Or a lifetime.      

Another interesting thread I won't have time to play in, but I must say this was a great post till the bolded part. If eye rolling were audible the sound would be deafening.

You are an interesting cat Romaios. So far I can't say I am in love with everything you say, but I do like how you say it.

Thanks.

Oh yeah, maybe you mentioned this or I am going to intuit, you are from / around Bucharest? If so, don't take my comment I just made about Bucharest too much to heart in another thread.

EDIT: If you are not at all from Romania can you pretend to be at least from Moldova?
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« Reply #140 on: January 24, 2013, 09:55:31 PM »

Thank you for all who contributed to the task of defining this elusive 'traditionalism.' It appears, unfortunately, that the thread has dissolved long ago into the voicing of party lines, with each member talking past one another on the basis of implicit positions (probably articulated long ago for all I know, as I am new to this forum.)

To address but one point among many, so that I am clear from what perspective people are speaking from:

Augustin, you said:

Quote
At least on us-not talking about myself here- but some other party members Someone is keeping an eye on. I doubt the establishment feels in any way the same about your kind.

What party are you referring to here?

For what it is worth, since I am asking people to reveal a bit about their orientation, I am not partial to any party but I am sympathetic to the insights of Eric Voegelin:

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/know-your-gnostics/

and Thomas Molnar:

http://www.firstprinciplesjournal.com/articles.aspx?article=359&loc=fs

Men of the right, it could be argued, but I think their perspectives are broader, and can provide a corrective to much of the polarization of discourse about modernity and its prospects.


What I said to Romaios?
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« Reply #141 on: January 25, 2013, 01:23:21 AM »

Oh yeah, maybe you mentioned this or I am going to intuit, you are from / around Bucharest? If so, don't take my comment I just made about Bucharest too much to heart in another thread.

EDIT: If you are not at all from Romania can you pretend to be at least from Moldova?

Actually, I'm from the opposite, westernmost, corner of the country - Timișoara or Temeschwar as Germans call it. Augustin and I went to college together.
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« Reply #142 on: January 25, 2013, 02:15:07 AM »

Oh yeah, maybe you mentioned this or I am going to intuit, you are from / around Bucharest? If so, don't take my comment I just made about Bucharest too much to heart in another thread.

EDIT: If you are not at all from Romania can you pretend to be at least from Moldova?

Actually, I'm from the opposite, westernmost, corner of the country - Timișoara or Temeschwar as Germans call it. Augustin and I went to college together.

No kidding? That's great. Well you not being from Bucharest. Spending your college years with augustin, I'll let you opine on that.
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« Reply #143 on: January 25, 2013, 02:31:35 AM »

Those were nice years although I've changed a bit since then. Nothing wild back then. In fact perhaps one or two vespers too many. Wink I was kinda bookish and awkward. Still am although it's no longer as visible as back then. But enough cause I'm not into making my life too public on the interwebs.
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« Reply #144 on: January 25, 2013, 02:33:41 AM »

No kidding? That's great. Well you not being from Bucharest. Spending your college years with augustin, I'll let you opine on that.

Well, that was great too. We used to agree more back then, though.   

Quote
But enough cause I'm not into making my life too public on the interwebs.

EDIT: Uh - you beat me to it! I catch your drift...  Lips Sealed

If only people knew how many prostrations you used to make...  angel
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« Reply #145 on: January 25, 2013, 02:49:15 AM »


Our school, looking back at it, was pretty far off to the right with some exceptions. As for the prostration I only saw people do them here. In Romania only saw them in one monastery
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« Reply #146 on: January 25, 2013, 02:55:45 AM »

Our school, looking back at it, was pretty far off to the right with some exceptions.

If you say so... We weren't schooled by Legionaries, though.   

As for the prostration I only saw people do them here. In Romania only saw them in one monastery.

"Whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door..."
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« Reply #147 on: January 25, 2013, 03:03:57 AM »

Not entirely sure we were not schooled by an admirer of them at least.nice guy otherwise.
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« Reply #148 on: January 25, 2013, 03:05:27 AM »

I'd be curious: is there any awareness in Finland of the Finnish culture here?  There are large parts where, at least up to a decade ago, everyone spoke Finnish.

The only thing I'm aware of is the cult of St. Urho. Tongue But then again I don't have any relatives there. Those who have probably know a lot more. Also, I recall reading about some cooperation between our Foreign ministry and American Finns and that there is at least one research about American Finns. I guess those can be counted as "any awareness".This is an interesting topic though. Maybe I should see if I can find more researces or articles on this.                
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« Reply #149 on: January 25, 2013, 03:14:15 AM »

Not entirely sure we were not schooled by an admirer of them at least.nice guy otherwise.

Him?
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« Reply #150 on: January 25, 2013, 03:16:09 AM »

No I don't wanna say names. Respect the privacy of people I know on a personal level.
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« Reply #151 on: January 25, 2013, 03:25:11 AM »

No I don't wanna say names. Respect the privacy of people I know on a personal level.

Okay - I deleted the link.

The Communists won't be able to throw him in jail now, will they? For having the wrong sympathies...
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« Reply #152 on: January 25, 2013, 03:28:11 AM »

That would only make them "new martyrs" so no, I hope they won't.
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« Reply #153 on: January 25, 2013, 03:38:22 AM »

But even Communists rarely arrested people. For merely having "the wrong sympathies".i. Know some stories from people that saw these things. Grandmother's first husband was in the legion and arrested and died in prison but that wasn't merely on account of his sympathies. He was connected although at that poin he wasn't armed himself to the armed bands in the mountains. So  reality is a bit more nuanced. Of course his punisment was excessive but so were the times,
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« Reply #154 on: January 25, 2013, 03:44:26 AM »

But even Communists rarely arrested people. For merely having "the wrong sympathies".

I also know for a fact that they did. And it was hardly 'rarely'.



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« Reply #155 on: January 25, 2013, 03:50:37 AM »

I don't know the case.
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« Reply #156 on: January 25, 2013, 03:52:41 AM »

I can only tell you that on the valley of Crisil Alb and our common friend can confirm or infirm it the only people arrested were some of the ex-legionnaires . Not even kulaks for there weren't any.
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« Reply #157 on: January 25, 2013, 04:05:05 AM »

I can only tell you that on the valley of Crisil Alb and our common friend can confirm or infirm it the only people arrested were some of the ex-legionnaires . Not even kulaks for there weren't any.

In Romania, the Communists took hold of power insidiously - more than half the country would have been their enemies. Especially intellectuals, clergy or young students. No point in sticking labels on them for that.
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« Reply #158 on: January 25, 2013, 04:09:57 AM »

Hope you aren't all that right but you might have a point. The intellectuals were pretty cozy with Hitler. However a poll in 2009 shows that 80 percent of Romanians did of suffer personally or knew any that suffered during Communism. Politically
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« Reply #159 on: January 25, 2013, 04:11:08 AM »

These statistics greatly upset all the usual suspects Plesu Liiceanu etc
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« Reply #160 on: January 25, 2013, 04:14:22 AM »

Btw the clergy wasn't as uniformly anti communist . Check  the Union of Democratic Priests for one. And in Romania Communism was not particularly anti orthodox. On the contrary .
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« Reply #161 on: January 25, 2013, 04:15:46 AM »

The intellectuals were pretty cozy with Hitler.

Yup - my spiritual father must have been terribly cozy with Hitler! That's why the Communists did all they could for him to be "cozy" in jail.
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« Reply #162 on: January 25, 2013, 04:19:54 AM »

I don't even know who your SF is but I know that Cooran Eliade Noica and a few others were quite enthusiastic for Hitler at some point. What embarassed them later.
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« Reply #163 on: January 25, 2013, 04:25:48 AM »

I don't even know who your SF is but I know that Cooran Eliade Noica and a few others were quite enthusiastic for Hitler at some point. What embarassed them later.

See, I don't care much about those - you can deconstruct them all you want. Father Crăciun I knew personally and no amount of Communist apologetics will be able to justify what happened to him.
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« Reply #164 on: January 25, 2013, 04:29:06 AM »

See I wasn't talking about him because I barely know his name.Nothing more.I take your word on it.
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« Reply #165 on: January 25, 2013, 04:36:31 AM »

See I wasn't talking about him because I barely know his name.Nothing more.I take your word on it.

There are probably hundreds like him. But to you, because of the ideology you've come to embrace, they'll only be useless martyrs for a false cause, victims crushed by the "dynamics of history" at best - "filthy reactionaries" more likely. You will never care to learn their names or their stories. 
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« Reply #166 on: January 25, 2013, 04:39:55 AM »

I'm sorry to interrupt you two but it's intriguing to see two Romanians talking with each other in English instead of Romanian.
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« Reply #167 on: January 25, 2013, 04:43:53 AM »

I'm sorry to interrupt you two but it's intriguing to see two Romanians talking with each other in English instead of Romanian.

Would you have the Mod demand that we translate everything into English after writing loads in Romanian?  Undecided
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« Reply #168 on: January 25, 2013, 04:49:48 AM »

See I wasn't talking about him because I barely know his name.Nothing more.I take your word on it.

There are probably hundreds like him. But to you, because of the ideology you've come to embrace, they'll only be useless martyrs for a false cause, victims crushed by the "dynamics of history" at best - "filthy reactionaries" more likely. You will never care to learn their names or their stories. 
That's too much drama in just two sentences there. or what do you think that the left hasn't got martyrs? Some, even clergy.
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« Reply #169 on: January 25, 2013, 04:51:53 AM »

I have two in my own family. One blood related one not that you could argue died as a result of communism. What can I say. It was tragic, unnecessary. God forgive them now.
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« Reply #170 on: January 25, 2013, 04:52:48 AM »

I'm sorry to interrupt you two but it's intriguing to see two Romanians talking with each other in English instead of Romanian.

Would you have the Mod demand that we translate everything into English after writing loads of messages in Romanian?  Undecided

That was just a light-hearted observation and not a suggestion of switching to Romanian.
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« Reply #171 on: January 25, 2013, 04:57:41 AM »

That's too much drama in just two sentences there. or what do you think that the left hasn't got martyrs? Some, even clergy.

80% of Romanians are not acquainted or related to those.

I don't ignore martyrs like Oscar Romero, but I would hate to see the Party claim for the left all those who died opposing the injustice of the rich and powerful. You don't have to be a Communist (nor a Christian, for that matter) to die or suffer for a noble cause.
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« Reply #172 on: January 25, 2013, 04:59:22 AM »

I'm sorry to interrupt you two but it's intriguing to see two Romanians talking with each other in English instead of Romanian.

Would you have the Mod demand that we translate everything into English after writing loads of messages in Romanian?  Undecided

That was just a light-hearted observation and not a suggestion of switching to Romanian.

I know Alpo - forgive me if I overreacted.  Smiley
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« Reply #173 on: January 25, 2013, 05:08:11 AM »

That's too much drama in just two sentences there. or what do you think that the left hasn't got martyrs? Some, even clergy.

80% of Romanians are not acquainted or related to those.

I don't ignore martyrs like Oscar Romero, but I would hate to see the Party claim for the left all those who died opposing the injustice of the rich and powerful. You don't have to be a Communist (nor a Christian, for that matter) to die for a noble cause.
So what, for 80% aren't related to the right wing martyrs either.
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« Reply #174 on: January 25, 2013, 05:09:12 AM »

Quote
I don't ignore martyrs like Oscar Romero, but I would hate to see the Party claim for the left all those who died opposing the injustice of the rich and powerful. You don't have to be a Communist (nor a Christian, for that matter) to die or suffer for a noble cause.
That's a bit naive 'cause there are many parties within the spectrum of Communism.
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« Reply #175 on: January 25, 2013, 05:16:06 AM »

So what, for 80% aren't related to the right wing martyrs either.

The point is that, in Romania, the ones in power who made most victims and martyrs in the 20th century were the Communists. Should we exonerate them or allow them to "justify" their crimes? Or perhaps give them a second chance at governing the country to make amends?
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« Reply #176 on: January 25, 2013, 05:18:34 AM »

Hm. You probably forgot the peasant revolts met with the King army's bullets in 1907 and before and after. Or the Jews and Gypsies killed by Antonescu et co.  Or the workers at Grivita. And some others.
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« Reply #177 on: January 25, 2013, 05:24:14 AM »

Hm. You probably forgot the peasant revolts met with the King army's bullets in 1907 and before and after. Or the Jews killed by Antonescu et co.

I'm not for justifying anybody's crimes. I don't want the Legionaries back in power, but I'm not at all crazy about the Communists either. And I think it should be naive, stupid even, to forgive & forget - to shrug our shoulders and say: "so were the times".   
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« Reply #178 on: January 25, 2013, 06:38:00 AM »

Hm. You probably forgot the peasant revolts met with the King army's bullets in 1907 and before and after. Or the Jews and Gypsies killed by Antonescu et co.  Or the workers at Grivita. And some others.
"some others" et alia won't overcome the large head start the communists got in building the Danube-Black Sea Canal.
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« Reply #179 on: January 25, 2013, 06:46:26 AM »

Quote
I don't ignore martyrs like Oscar Romero, but I would hate to see the Party claim for the left all those who died opposing the injustice of the rich and powerful. You don't have to be a Communist (nor a Christian, for that matter) to die or suffer for a noble cause.
That's a bit naive 'cause there are many parties within the spectrum of Communism.
Spectrum or spectre?
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« Reply #180 on: January 25, 2013, 06:54:29 AM »

Spectrum or spectre?

Thus beginneth the Manifesto: "A spectre is haunting Europe - the spectre of Communism."
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« Reply #181 on: January 25, 2013, 07:21:50 AM »

Spectrum or spectre?

Thus beginneth the Manifesto: "A spectre is haunting Europe - the spectre of Communism."
LOL. Indeed-the Left forgets that many of us have read Marx.

Interesting how Marx, Engels and the rest wrote "the following Manifesto, to be published in the English, French, German, Italian, Flemish and Danish languages," and England, France, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Belgium, and Denmark never fell for it.
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