Author Topic: Lutherans bristle at suggestion of joining Catholic Church  (Read 1103 times)

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Offline Jetavan

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Lutherans bristle at suggestion of joining Catholic Church
« on: January 22, 2013, 11:24:49 PM »
Two leading Lutheran clerics have rejected suggestions from the Vatican that it could create a subdivision for converted Lutherans similar to its structures for Anglicans who join the Roman Catholic Church.
....
While the Vatican's opening to Anglicans followed years of bitter public splits in that church, very few of the world's 75 million Lutherans seem interested in reunification with Rome.

Cardinal Kurt Koch, head of the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity, said last October the Vatican would consider creating an ordinariate if Lutherans asked for one.
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Lutherans bristle at suggestion of joining Catholic Church
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2013, 04:11:26 PM »
It's an odd world when even the Lutherans are more Catholic and traditional than the Roman Catholic Church.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 04:11:37 PM by JamesR »
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Offline choy

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Re: Lutherans bristle at suggestion of joining Catholic Church
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2013, 04:22:30 PM »
How about Orthodoxy?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Lutherans bristle at suggestion of joining Catholic Church
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2013, 04:33:52 PM »
How about Orthodoxy?
around here I've posted on the Nordic Catholic Church on this question.
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Offline Clemente

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Re: Lutherans bristle at suggestion of joining Catholic Church
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2013, 05:23:53 PM »
It's an odd world when even the Lutherans are more Catholic and traditional than the Roman Catholic Church.

There are some Lutherans that are quite Catholic and in fact one group, the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church, has declared it's intention of joining the RC church. They are in fact very small in numbers, though.

My experience growing up in the Lutheran Church was that anti-papism almost defined them, much more than "liberal" or "conservative". Which is a pity, because theologically they are not so far off from the RC church and closer than most other Protestants. Martin Luther had some legitimate complaints about Roman innovations such as Indulgences, but I think he would be horrified by the state of Lutheran churches today.

They should have joined Holy Orthodoxy in the 16th century. Here's a good Orthodox summary of the dialogue between Patriarch Jeremias II and the Tübingen Lutherans in the 16th century: http://www.stpaulsirvine.org/html/lutheran.htm

Offline Happy Lutheran

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Re: Lutherans bristle at suggestion of joining Catholic Church
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2013, 06:14:28 PM »
It's an odd world when even the Lutherans are more Catholic and traditional than the Roman Catholic Church.

They always have been, that's why they were protesting in the first place. Most Lutherans consider themselves Evangelical Catholics.

I personally think if you read the Augsburg Confession and read the church fathers it's all fully acceptable doctrine that was preached in the early church. Maybe not universally but in those days there were a wide range of theological differences.

It won't ever happen but I think if the Pope gave up his Primacy and Infallibility and Rome and the East could be open to some theological differences the Roman Catholics, EO, OO, Anglicans, and Lutherans could unite.
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Offline Jetavan

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Re: Lutherans bristle at suggestion of joining Catholic Church
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2013, 06:17:52 PM »

It won't ever happen but I think if the Pope gave up his Primacy and Infallibility and Rome and the East could be open to some theological differences heresy the Roman Catholics, EO, OO, Anglicans, and Lutherans could unite.
Corrected.  ;)
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Lutherans bristle at suggestion of joining Catholic Church
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2013, 06:20:23 PM »
Most Lutherans consider themselves Evangelical Catholics.

This simply isn't true. If you really are a Lutheran in a real-life Lutheran parish you know yourself that this simply isn't true. The idea of Lutherans "Evangelical Catholic" comes up only when Lutherans try to defend their faith from annoying questions. The actual day to day logic is a lot more "Protestant" than "Catholic".
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Offline David Garner

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Re: Lutherans bristle at suggestion of joining Catholic Church
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2013, 11:29:48 PM »
Most Lutherans consider themselves Evangelical Catholics.

This simply isn't true. If you really are a Lutheran in a real-life Lutheran parish you know yourself that this simply isn't true. The idea of Lutherans "Evangelical Catholic" comes up only when Lutherans try to defend their faith from annoying questions. The actual day to day logic is a lot more "Protestant" than "Catholic".

That depends on which Lutheran you speak to, but I would agree that "most" is quite a stretch, at least here in America.  In my experience, "most" Lutherans are Protestant to the core.

The best Lutherans (in my opinion) consider themselves evangelical catholics, but unfortunately most Lutherans have strayed far from their own Confessions.  And those Confessions stray in pertinent part from the historic faith, but not nearly as much as most modern American Lutherans.

Offline Happy Lutheran

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Re: Lutherans bristle at suggestion of joining Catholic Church
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2013, 09:03:56 AM »
Fine, "most" Lutherans that actually understand their theology and histoy consider themselves Evangelical Catholics. The reformers at the time considered themselves Evangelical or Evangelical Catholic. In our church we keep the words of the creed "The Holy Catholic Church". My father in law is a Lutheran Pastor and says the 60% or more Lutherans do not understand those things so if that's your point OK. I don't think that is any different than any other church though.
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Offline David Garner

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Re: Lutherans bristle at suggestion of joining Catholic Church
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2013, 03:13:58 PM »
Fine, "most" Lutherans that actually understand their theology and histoy consider themselves Evangelical Catholics. The reformers at the time considered themselves Evangelical or Evangelical Catholic. In our church we keep the words of the creed "The Holy Catholic Church". My father in law is a Lutheran Pastor and says the 60% or more Lutherans do not understand those things so if that's your point OK. I don't think that is any different than any other church though.

I don't know that the entire problem is that they don't understand.  Some don't understand.  Some understand full well and have adopted sectarian church growth methodology in order to increase numbers.  Some just like more protestant styled worship.  Some are anti-catholic.  Etc.  I showed our previous pastor the "You're a Lutheran: 18 things you didn't know you believed" blog post once, and he looked at me like I was from Mars.  Every single one of those points is from the Confessions, but you'd have thought I was showing him a list of things that had been condemned at first Nicea.

I fully agree with you, however, that Lutherans that have a good grasp on their history and the Confessions overwhelmingly consider themselves to be evangelical catholics.  I'm certainly not arguing that point.

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Lutherans bristle at suggestion of joining Catholic Church
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2013, 03:18:26 PM »
It won't ever happen but I think if the Pope gave up his Primacy [...]

But that would be silly.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 03:20:24 PM by Cyrillic »
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Lutherans bristle at suggestion of joining Catholic Church
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2013, 04:55:17 PM »
It's an odd world when even the Lutherans are more Catholic and traditional than the Roman Catholic Church.
I personally think if you read the Augsburg Confession and read the church fathers it's all fully acceptable doctrine that was preached in the early church. Maybe not universally but in those days there were a wide range of theological differences.

Patriarch Jermias II would beg to differ, I think.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Lutherans bristle at suggestion of joining Catholic Church
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2013, 04:57:33 PM »
It won't ever happen but I think if the Pope gave up his Primacy [...]

But that would be silly.

Perhaps "supremacy" was meant instead.
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