Author Topic: How Jewish was Jesus?  (Read 4838 times)

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Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #45 on: January 22, 2013, 04:28:35 PM »
Jesus...prayed in the Hebrew language

I thought that the Jews in that time spoke Aramaic? 

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #46 on: January 22, 2013, 04:31:47 PM »
Jesus...prayed in the Hebrew language

I thought that the Jews in that time spoke Aramaic? 

Spoke Aramaic.  Prayed in Hebrew.  Kind of like speaking in Italian and praying in Latin.
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Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #47 on: January 22, 2013, 04:32:14 PM »
Jesus...prayed in the Hebrew language

I thought that the Jews in that time spoke Aramaic? 

Spoke Aramaic.  Prayed in Hebrew.  Kind of like speaking in Italian and praying in Latin.
Oh, I see.

Offline Romaios

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #48 on: January 22, 2013, 04:32:37 PM »
What he taught seems to comprise more greek, buddhist, hindus philosophy than rabbinical judaism philosophy and OT dubiousness.

He sure quotes a lot of "OT dubiousness" for a Greek philosopher or a Hindu guru! As for the Judaisms of his day, they were more than one and not yet "rabbinical". The ancestors of rabbinical Judaism were the Pharisees. Flavius Josephus describes them as a sect/school (hairesis) among others.

Offline choy

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #49 on: January 22, 2013, 04:36:19 PM »
What is the scale of how Jewish someone is for us to say how Jewish they are?

The scale is nominal Judaism.

So do I say something like, "he's Adam Sandler-ish Jew"?

Offline akimel

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #50 on: January 22, 2013, 04:51:30 PM »
How Jewish was Jesus?

100%!!!

That's the whole point of the genealogies in Matthew and Luke; that's the whole point of Jesus' circumcision and his presentation in the Temple; that's the whole point of the OT prophesies about the Messiah, now fulfilled in the Nazarene; that's the whole point of Jesus' conversation with the Samaritan woman at the well; that's the whole point of the apostolic claim that Christ has broken down the boundaries between Jew and Gentile, etc., etc.  The New Testament makes no sense at all if Jesus is not Jewish.

"But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons" (Gal 4:4-5). 

Being a Jew has nothing to do with the question of Jesus' relationship to the Pharisees and Saduccees.  That's like asking if he was a Republican or Democrat.  Jesus was born of a Jewish mother.  Jesus was circumcised.  Jesus was raised as a Jew.  Jesus was taught Torah.  Jesus participated fully in the ritual and sacrificial life of his people.  Jesus celebrated Passover.  Jesus was arrested and condemned by the Jewish authorities as a messianic pretender and condemned by the Roman authorities as a Jewish insurrectionist. 

The offense of the gospel may be summed up thusly:  the Savior of the world is a Jew!




Offline FlickFlack

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #51 on: January 22, 2013, 05:14:42 PM »
What he taught seems to comprise more greek, buddhist, hindus philosophy than rabbinical judaism philosophy and OT dubiousness.

He sure quotes a lot of "OT dubiousness" for a Greek philosopher or a Hindu guru! As for the Judaisms of his day, they were more than one and not yet "rabbinical". The ancestors of rabbinical Judaism were the Pharisees. Flavius Josephus describes them as a sect/school (hairesis) among others.

I don't see Jesus sustaining executions, murder, genocide, strucking people down and others as such in the NT. You can't know for sure what Jesus actually said, if he existed. You can only know what was attributed to him first at least 30 years after his death by an indirect witness.

What I meant was the philosophy of the Jewish authorities on the time of Jesus..


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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #52 on: January 22, 2013, 05:25:01 PM »
What he taught seems to comprise more greek, buddhist, hindus philosophy than rabbinical judaism philosophy and OT dubiousness.

He sure quotes a lot of "OT dubiousness" for a Greek philosopher or a Hindu guru! As for the Judaisms of his day, they were more than one and not yet "rabbinical". The ancestors of rabbinical Judaism were the Pharisees. Flavius Josephus describes them as a sect/school (hairesis) among others.

I don't see Jesus sustaining executions, murder, genocide, strucking people down and others as such in the NT. You can't know for sure what Jesus actually said, if he existed. You can only know what was attributed to him first at least 30 years after his death by an indirect witness.

What I meant was the philosophy of the Jewish authorities on the time of Jesus..




What do you mean "if" He existed?

Are you an Orthodox Christian?
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #53 on: January 22, 2013, 05:29:47 PM »
Quote
You can't know for sure what Jesus actually said, if he existed. You can only know what was attributed to him first at least 30 years after his death by an indirect witness.

Much of what we know about history, comes from sources that was written a long time after the events occured. For example, much of what we know about the first emperor of China, comes from the Shiji, which was written about a hundred years after the emperors death. And much of what was written in the chronicle, has turned out to be correct.
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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #54 on: January 22, 2013, 05:36:04 PM »
How Jewish was Jesus?

100%!!!

That's the whole point of the genealogies in Matthew and Luke; that's the whole point of Jesus' circumcision and his presentation in the Temple; that's the whole point of the OT prophesies about the Messiah, now fulfilled in the Nazarene; that's the whole point of Jesus' conversation with the Samaritan woman at the well; that's the whole point of the apostolic claim that Christ has broken down the boundaries between Jew and Gentile, etc., etc.  The New Testament makes no sense at all if Jesus is not Jewish.

"But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons" (Gal 4:4-5).  

Being a Jew has nothing to do with the question of Jesus' relationship to the Pharisees and Saduccees.  That's like asking if he was a Republican or Democrat.  Jesus was born of a Jewish mother.  Jesus was circumcised.  Jesus was raised as a Jew.  Jesus was taught Torah.  Jesus participated fully in the ritual and sacrificial life of his people.  Jesus celebrated Passover.  Jesus was arrested and condemned by the Jewish authorities as a messianic pretender and condemned by the Roman authorities as a Jewish insurrectionist.  

The offense of the gospel may be summed up thusly:  the Savior of the world is a Jew!





What proof do you have that Jesus was raised as a Jew, thought the Torah and that he participated in the ritual and sacrificial life of his people? For example there are circumstances when Jesus is not mentioned as participating on the Jewish feasts from the beginning.. Jesus is portraited as purposely healing on the Sabbath and in John even says that he loose/broke the Sabbath. Than he appears to imply that all foods are clean, Mark even has it said "thus making all foods clean".. There is no mention of an actual Paschal Lamb at the Meal of the Last Supper.

If Jewishness is taken matrilineal than why does Joseph appear in both genealogies?

« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 05:44:21 PM by FlickFlack »
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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #55 on: January 22, 2013, 05:37:46 PM »
What he taught seems to comprise more greek, buddhist, hindus philosophy than rabbinical judaism philosophy and OT dubiousness.

He sure quotes a lot of "OT dubiousness" for a Greek philosopher or a Hindu guru! As for the Judaisms of his day, they were more than one and not yet "rabbinical". The ancestors of rabbinical Judaism were the Pharisees. Flavius Josephus describes them as a sect/school (hairesis) among others.

I don't see Jesus sustaining executions, murder, genocide, strucking people down and others as such in the NT. You can't know for sure what Jesus actually said, if he existed. You can only know what was attributed to him first at least 30 years after his death by an indirect witness.

What I meant was the philosophy of the Jewish authorities on the time of Jesus..




What do you mean "if" He existed?

Are you an Orthodox Christian?


Yes, but I prefer to keep an eye on skepticism for the sake of realism.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 05:38:07 PM by FlickFlack »
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #56 on: January 22, 2013, 05:41:55 PM »
How Jewish was Jesus?

100%!!!

That's the whole point of the genealogies in Matthew and Luke; that's the whole point of Jesus' circumcision and his presentation in the Temple; that's the whole point of the OT prophesies about the Messiah, now fulfilled in the Nazarene; that's the whole point of Jesus' conversation with the Samaritan woman at the well; that's the whole point of the apostolic claim that Christ has broken down the boundaries between Jew and Gentile, etc., etc.  The New Testament makes no sense at all if Jesus is not Jewish.

"But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons" (Gal 4:4-5).  

Being a Jew has nothing to do with the question of Jesus' relationship to the Pharisees and Saduccees.  That's like asking if he was a Republican or Democrat.  Jesus was born of a Jewish mother.  Jesus was circumcised.  Jesus was raised as a Jew.  Jesus was taught Torah.  Jesus participated fully in the ritual and sacrificial life of his people.  Jesus celebrated Passover.  Jesus was arrested and condemned by the Jewish authorities as a messianic pretender and condemned by the Roman authorities as a Jewish insurrectionist.  

The offense of the gospel may be summed up thusly:  the Savior of the world is a Jew!





Those genealogies are inconsistent.. What proof do you have that Jesus was raised as a Jew, thought the Torah and that he participated in the ritual and sacrificial life of his people? For example there are circumstances when Jesus is not mentioned as participating on the Jewish feasts from the beginning.. Jesus is portraited as purposely healing on the Sabbath and in John even says that he loose/broke the Sabbath. Than he appears to imply that all foods are clean, Mark even has it said "thus making all foods clean".. There is no mention of an actual Paschal Lamb at the Meal of the Last Supper.There is an inconsistency between the synoptics and the Gospel of John regarding the days.. There are inconsistencies between stories..    In various circumstances John the Baptist is said to tell people that Jesus was indeed the Messiah and that they should follow him and that God revealed him that he was the Messiah, though later before his death he sents his disciples to ask him if he really was the Messiah..
What you mention are petty details. Do you expect the authors of the gospels to write down every single detail about Jesus' movements and surroundings?
Regarding John the baptist, that is a little thing, called doubt. That does not in any way imply inconsistency.
 
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 05:42:19 PM by Ansgar »
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #57 on: January 22, 2013, 06:17:37 PM »
What he taught seems to comprise more greek, buddhist, hindus philosophy than rabbinical judaism philosophy and OT dubiousness.

He sure quotes a lot of "OT dubiousness" for a Greek philosopher or a Hindu guru! As for the Judaisms of his day, they were more than one and not yet "rabbinical". The ancestors of rabbinical Judaism were the Pharisees. Flavius Josephus describes them as a sect/school (hairesis) among others.

I don't see Jesus sustaining executions, murder, genocide, strucking people down and others as such in the NT. You can't know for sure what Jesus actually said, if he existed. You can only know what was attributed to him first at least 30 years after his death by an indirect witness.

What I meant was the philosophy of the Jewish authorities on the time of Jesus..




What do you mean "if" He existed?

Are you an Orthodox Christian?


Yes, but I prefer to keep an eye on skepticism for the sake of realism.

So, do you believe Christ existed or not?
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #58 on: January 22, 2013, 06:23:03 PM »
What he taught seems to comprise more greek, buddhist, hindus philosophy than rabbinical judaism philosophy and OT dubiousness.

He sure quotes a lot of "OT dubiousness" for a Greek philosopher or a Hindu guru! As for the Judaisms of his day, they were more than one and not yet "rabbinical". The ancestors of rabbinical Judaism were the Pharisees. Flavius Josephus describes them as a sect/school (hairesis) among others.

I don't see Jesus sustaining executions, murder, genocide, strucking people down and others as such in the NT. You can't know for sure what Jesus actually said, if he existed. You can only know what was attributed to him first at least 30 years after his death by an indirect witness.

What I meant was the philosophy of the Jewish authorities on the time of Jesus..




What do you mean "if" He existed?

Are you an Orthodox Christian?


Yes, but I prefer to keep an eye on skepticism for the sake of realism.

So, do you believe Christ existed or not?


What kind of questions are this? Do you believe Christ existed?Are you an Orthodox Christian?
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Offline sheenj

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #59 on: January 22, 2013, 06:25:54 PM »
What he taught seems to comprise more greek, buddhist, hindus philosophy than rabbinical judaism philosophy and OT dubiousness.

He sure quotes a lot of "OT dubiousness" for a Greek philosopher or a Hindu guru! As for the Judaisms of his day, they were more than one and not yet "rabbinical". The ancestors of rabbinical Judaism were the Pharisees. Flavius Josephus describes them as a sect/school (hairesis) among others.

I don't see Jesus sustaining executions, murder, genocide, strucking people down and others as such in the NT. You can't know for sure what Jesus actually said, if he existed. You can only know what was attributed to him first at least 30 years after his death by an indirect witness.

What I meant was the philosophy of the Jewish authorities on the time of Jesus..




What do you mean "if" He existed?

Are you an Orthodox Christian?


Yes, but I prefer to keep an eye on skepticism for the sake of realism.

So, do you believe Christ existed or not?


What kind of questions are this? Do you believe Christ existed?Are you an Orthodox Christian?

Christ existing is pretty much the Foundation of Orthodoxy and Christianity as a whole. You've indicated that you might not believe this. That's why you're getting these questions.

Offline That person

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #60 on: January 22, 2013, 06:34:28 PM »

Oh.
    My.
        G-D.
              
Nice.
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Offline Symeon77

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #61 on: January 22, 2013, 06:36:16 PM »
FlickFlack-

I am not sure anyone here can adequately engage with your questions until such time as you can reveal a bit more of your relationship to the Church. Do you pray? Do you keep the fasts? Do you participate in the sacraments?, etc.

You list your faith as Orthodox, yet you consistently display a propensity to entertain theological and other opinions far outside of the orbit of the Orthodox faith and a concomitant unwillingness to hear about the teachings of the Church on these selfsame matters. I have suggested elsewhere that perhaps a fitting path for you would be to discuss these matters directly with someone within the Church more qualified to address these questions, but in the event that you have missed my suggestion: perhaps you could begin with your parish Priest, asking him to direct you to an Elder or Bishop with a reputation for holiness of life and adherence to the rule of faith? I think of someone like Metropolitan Heirotheos of Nafpaktos, Metropolitan Athanasios of Limassol, Archimandrite Elissaios of Simonos Petras, Mount Athos, etc., as I have gathered that you reside somewhere in Greece.

Please do not take offence, as I am simply trying to help, but you must be willing to listen to your Orthodox brothers and sisters over and above modern-day 'Jews', Protestants, heathens, atheists and sundry heretics. May God grant you this willingness!
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #62 on: January 22, 2013, 07:47:50 PM »
sundry heretics

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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #63 on: January 22, 2013, 07:51:23 PM »
...as I have gathered that you reside somewhere in Greece...

If we can figure out which banned poster he was before he made this new name, we might be able to figure out where he's from. What was your last username FlickFlack?

Offline akimel

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #64 on: January 22, 2013, 08:42:27 PM »

What proof do you have that Jesus was raised as a Jew, thought the Torah and that he participated in the ritual and sacrificial life of his people? For example there are circumstances when Jesus is not mentioned as participating on the Jewish feasts from the beginning.. Jesus is portraited as purposely healing on the Sabbath and in John even says that he loose/broke the Sabbath. Than he appears to imply that all foods are clean, Mark even has it said "thus making all foods clean". There is no mention of an actual Paschal Lamb at the Meal of the Last Supper.

If Jewishness is taken matrilineal than why does Joseph appear in both genealogies?

FlickFlack, you ask me for proof.  I could, of course, just reverse the question, as I think that the burden of proof is on your shoulders.  No reputable biblical scholar or historian would question the Jewishness of Jesus.  You ask me proof that Jesus participated in Temple sacrifices.  I ask you proof that Jesus did not!  Did his opponents ever accuse him of not participating in the sacrifices?  Do you think it likely that Jesus never participated with his family in the Passover? 

That Jesus broke specific taboos regarding ritual eating or healing on the Sabbath does not disprove his Jewishness.  It only proves that he did not follow the Pharisees in their interpretation of Torah.  I think you have a skewed understanding of what it means to be Jewish.   

If you really want to understand Jesus of Nazareth, I suggest that you begin reading the works of N. T. Wright.  A good place to begin would be The Original Jesus, The Challenge of Jesus, and Simply Jesus.

The Savior of the world is a Jew!  That is the good news!

Offline mike

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #65 on: January 22, 2013, 08:53:07 PM »
What he taught seems to comprise more greek, buddhist, hindus philosophy than rabbinical judaism philosophy and OT dubiousness.

He sure quotes a lot of "OT dubiousness" for a Greek philosopher or a Hindu guru! As for the Judaisms of his day, they were more than one and not yet "rabbinical". The ancestors of rabbinical Judaism were the Pharisees. Flavius Josephus describes them as a sect/school (hairesis) among others.

I don't see Jesus sustaining executions, murder, genocide, strucking people down and others as such in the NT. You can't know for sure what Jesus actually said, if he existed. You can only know what was attributed to him first at least 30 years after his death by an indirect witness.

What I meant was the philosophy of the Jewish authorities on the time of Jesus..




What do you mean "if" He existed?

Are you an Orthodox Christian?


Yes, but I prefer to keep an eye on skepticism for the sake of realism.

So, do you believe Christ existed or not?


What kind of questions are this? Do you believe Christ existed?Are you an Orthodox Christian?

Questions that allow moderators to better manage the forum. Please, answer them. Either privately via PM or publicly here. That's official moderational request.

I'd also like you to answer 3rd question: who is your bishop?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 08:55:25 PM by Michał Kalina »
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #66 on: January 22, 2013, 09:02:30 PM »
How Jewish was Jesus?

100%!!!

That's the whole point of the genealogies in Matthew and Luke; that's the whole point of Jesus' circumcision and his presentation in the Temple; that's the whole point of the OT prophesies about the Messiah, now fulfilled in the Nazarene; that's the whole point of Jesus' conversation with the Samaritan woman at the well; that's the whole point of the apostolic claim that Christ has broken down the boundaries between Jew and Gentile, etc., etc.  The New Testament makes no sense at all if Jesus is not Jewish.

"But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons" (Gal 4:4-5). 

Being a Jew has nothing to do with the question of Jesus' relationship to the Pharisees and Saduccees.  That's like asking if he was a Republican or Democrat.  Jesus was born of a Jewish mother.  Jesus was circumcised.  Jesus was raised as a Jew.  Jesus was taught Torah.  Jesus participated fully in the ritual and sacrificial life of his people.  Jesus celebrated Passover.  Jesus was arrested and condemned by the Jewish authorities as a messianic pretender and condemned by the Roman authorities as a Jewish insurrectionist. 

The offense of the gospel may be summed up thusly:  the Savior of the world is a Jew!

Sorry that your answer seems to have fallen on less than sympathetic ears (eyes?), but thanks for the time and effort to make a sincere and well written effort!
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #67 on: January 22, 2013, 09:11:25 PM »
He was very Jewish.

He taught in the temples, he attended Jewish services in the temples - he was circumcised, his mother was Jewish, Joseph was Jewish, the 12 apostles were Jewish, he kept the Sabbath, recognized the Sabbath, and only bumped head with the pharisees on the radicalness they imposed on the Sabbath.

He fulfilled Jewish prophecy.  He even stated "salvation comes from the Jews".




It is said he broke the sabbath, he did not show up on the Jewish holidays and others as such. How do we know he was a Jew?His circumcision and other Jewish rituals as such had nothing to do with his(human) will and has always interfere with the Jewish authorities of that time.His philosophy was beyond the narrow Jewish one and had incorporated the wide philosophy of all religions and a philosophy of liberty.We can't really know exactly what he said, the first gospel was written after at least 30 years after his death by Mark who was an indirect witness the scholars say.And the one who wrote in his Gospel that part was apparently not present at the conversation Jesus had when he said this , because all the apostles were gone when he spoke with the Samaritan woman.


Actually he didn't break the Sabbath, he was showing the radical belief that the Jews made of the Sabbath.  They defined "healing a man" as "work" however, he thought differently.  And why not, after all he was God.

It is only listed the holidays that he was not at, thus we can only assume he was at holidays.

His circumcision was proof of his existence within the Jewish community, thus raised Jewish.

The book of Matthew, was the first hand witness, written by the Apostle Matthew who would have had witnessed the events.

Mark (Has been debated) but Luke was not a first hand account.

John... Well I can't touch that here.


I can't answer the question "what kind of Jew was he".   He was absolutely a Jew though, that brought salvation and established HIS church.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #68 on: January 22, 2013, 09:19:28 PM »
Jesus was a Jew that God loved. Jesus was a Jew that loved God. Jesus was is a God that loved Jews.

....fixed that for you.  :)

According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother (which the Virgin Mary was) or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew; one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish.



Are you saying Jesus did not practice the laws of the Torah?

Yet he was a religious Jew.What type of religion did he had?Was he a Rabbi also?Doesn't a Rabbi need special appointing?How would he and his followers look like and how would they have worship?

Why does it matter?  The degree of His Jewishness....has little to do with his ministry.  Don't look at what He was....look to what He taught.


What he taught seems to comprise more greek, buddhist, hindus philosophy than rabbinical judaism philosophy and OT dubiousness.



I don't agree with you.  What he taught was his 2nd covenant.  Sure anybody can "compare" philosophy and make quick "ah - ha's".

Hindus are polytheistic, and their philosophy does not show similar.

In the peaceful understanding "golden rule" one could compare this with Christ, however, that's a pretty basic teaching that many cultures adapted. 

He taught many things of the Jews, quoted Jewish prophets, recognized the Sabbath...
Dunno where you are going with this.
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Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #69 on: January 22, 2013, 11:52:29 PM »
How Jewish is enough for you :D
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Offline JamesR

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #70 on: January 22, 2013, 11:53:10 PM »
Jesus...prayed in the Hebrew language

I thought that the Jews in that time spoke Aramaic? 

Spoke Aramaic.  Prayed in Hebrew.  Kind of like speaking in Italian and praying in Latin.

Really? I didn't know that the Jews spoke Aramaic. I always assumed that they probably spoke Latin since they were occupied by the Romans and that maybe they prayed in Koine Greek since the Septuagint at the time was written in Greek.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Offline mike

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #71 on: January 22, 2013, 11:56:39 PM »
Really? I didn't know that the Jews spoke Aramaic. I always assumed that they probably spoke Latin since they were occupied by the Romans and that maybe they prayed in Koine Greek since the Septuagint at the time was written in Greek.

Unfortunately, that's a feature not only of American educational system.

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Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #72 on: January 23, 2013, 12:12:46 AM »
Really? I didn't know that the Jews spoke Aramaic. I always assumed that they probably spoke Latin since they were occupied by the Romans and that maybe they prayed in Koine Greek since the Septuagint at the time was written in Greek.

Unfortunately, that's a feature not only of American educational system.



Yes , I grew up with the same impression now that you mention it, though I learned the truth a long time ago.
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Offline pmpn8rGPT

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #73 on: January 23, 2013, 12:55:21 AM »
depends on your definition of Jewish

if you mean the humble servants of God in the OT than in His Humanity He is the ultimate Jew and in His Divinity He is their master

if you mean the modern day talmud-reading kosher-eating peace-hating media-running ZIONIST kaballistic "jews" than He is not a Jew.
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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #74 on: January 23, 2013, 04:05:58 AM »
He was very Jewish.

He taught in the temples, he attended Jewish services in the temples - he was circumcised, his mother was Jewish, Joseph was Jewish, the 12 apostles were Jewish, he kept the Sabbath, recognized the Sabbath, and only bumped head with the pharisees on the radicalness they imposed on the Sabbath.

He fulfilled Jewish prophecy.  He even stated "salvation comes from the Jews".




It is said he broke the sabbath, he did not show up on the Jewish holidays and others as such. How do we know he was a Jew?His circumcision and other Jewish rituals as such had nothing to do with his(human) will and has always interfere with the Jewish authorities of that time.His philosophy was beyond the narrow Jewish one and had incorporated the wide philosophy of all religions and a philosophy of liberty.We can't really know exactly what he said, the first gospel was written after at least 30 years after his death by Mark who was an indirect witness the scholars say.And the one who wrote in his Gospel that part was apparently not present at the conversation Jesus had when he said this , because all the apostles were gone when he spoke with the Samaritan woman.


Actually he didn't break the Sabbath, he was showing the radical belief that the Jews made of the Sabbath.  They defined "healing a man" as "work" however, he thought differently.  And why not, after all he was God.

John 5 :16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him,[c] because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”

18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke(ἔλυεν) the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

Quote
It is only listed the holidays that he was not at, thus we can only assume he was at holidays.

John 7 seems to indicate that Jesus did not show up on the feast of Booths from the beginning. (John 7:14) On the last Passover no mentioning of any Lamb consumption.

Quote
His circumcision was proof of his existence within the Jewish community, thus raised Jewish.

Among which Jewish tradition/sect/train of thought? Were there religious Jews separated from the existent Jewish sects at that time? How did they practice and exercise their religion?



Quote
I can't answer the question "what kind of Jew was he".   He was absolutely a Jew though, that brought salvation and established HIS church.

Yet this is the question of the topic.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 04:08:31 AM by FlickFlack »
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #75 on: January 23, 2013, 08:43:07 PM »
Jesus was a Jew that God loved. Jesus was a Jew that loved God. Jesus was a God that loved Jews.

Behold, the answer!
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #76 on: January 23, 2013, 08:44:52 PM »
What he taught seems to comprise more greek, buddhist, hindus philosophy than rabbinical judaism philosophy and OT dubiousness.

He sure quotes a lot of "OT dubiousness" for a Greek philosopher or a Hindu guru! As for the Judaisms of his day, they were more than one and not yet "rabbinical". The ancestors of rabbinical Judaism were the Pharisees. Flavius Josephus describes them as a sect/school (hairesis) among others.

I don't see Jesus sustaining executions, murder, genocide, strucking people down and others as such in the NT. You can't know for sure what Jesus actually said, if he existed. You can only know what was attributed to him first at least 30 years after his death by an indirect witness.

What I meant was the philosophy of the Jewish authorities on the time of Jesus..




What do you mean "if" He existed?

Are you an Orthodox Christian?


Yes, but I prefer to keep an eye on skepticism for the sake of realism.

Maybe we should discuss what kind of an Orthodox Christian you are.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #77 on: January 23, 2013, 08:46:24 PM »
What he taught seems to comprise more greek, buddhist, hindus philosophy than rabbinical judaism philosophy and OT dubiousness.

He sure quotes a lot of "OT dubiousness" for a Greek philosopher or a Hindu guru! As for the Judaisms of his day, they were more than one and not yet "rabbinical". The ancestors of rabbinical Judaism were the Pharisees. Flavius Josephus describes them as a sect/school (hairesis) among others.

I don't see Jesus sustaining executions, murder, genocide, strucking people down and others as such in the NT. You can't know for sure what Jesus actually said, if he existed. You can only know what was attributed to him first at least 30 years after his death by an indirect witness.

What I meant was the philosophy of the Jewish authorities on the time of Jesus..




What do you mean "if" He existed?

Are you an Orthodox Christian?


Yes, but I prefer to keep an eye on skepticism for the sake of realism.

So, do you believe Christ existed or not?


What kind of questions are this? Do you believe Christ existed?Are you an Orthodox Christian?

Do you believe questions can be answered? At what point would you accept an answer to a question? At what point would you actually answer a question with an answer and not a question?
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline choy

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #78 on: January 23, 2013, 08:46:30 PM »
I always assumed that they probably spoke Latin

You'll fit in great at Fisheaters  ;D ;D ;D

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #79 on: January 23, 2013, 08:47:24 PM »
...as I have gathered that you reside somewhere in Greece...

If we can figure out which banned poster he was before he made this new name, we might be able to figure out where he's from. What was your last username FlickFlack?
+1
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline FlickFlack

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #80 on: January 24, 2013, 07:46:22 AM »
Another hi-jacked thread it is a shame that the Mods don't do anything about this.

Right here, right now.

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #81 on: January 24, 2013, 12:02:06 PM »
Another hi-jacked thread it is a shame that the Mods don't do anything about this.
Have you reported this to the Mods via the "Report to Moderator" function? If you have a problem you think they need to address, they're not going to know about your concern unless you share it with them. That's a much better approach than complaining publicly about Mod inaction as you just did.
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #82 on: January 24, 2013, 12:10:13 PM »
Jesus was a Jew that God loved. Jesus was a Jew that loved God. Jesus was is a God that loved Jews.

....fixed that for you.  :)

According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother (which the Virgin Mary was) or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew; one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish.



Are you saying Jesus did not practice the laws of the Torah?

Yet he was a religious Jew.What type of religion did he had?Was he a Rabbi also?Doesn't a Rabbi need special appointing?How would he and his followers look like and how would they have worship?

Why does it matter?  The degree of His Jewishness....has little to do with his ministry.  Don't look at what He was....look to what He taught.


What he taught seems to comprise more greek, buddhist, hindus philosophy than rabbinical judaism philosophy and OT dubiousness.



You do know that there was no such thing as rabbinical Judaism until after the Temple was destroyed? Where do you get the notion that He taught Buddhist and Hindu philosophy? What are you reading that gives you this notion?
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #83 on: January 24, 2013, 12:33:37 PM »
Jesus was a Jew that God loved. Jesus was a Jew that loved God. Jesus was is a God that loved Jews.

....fixed that for you.  :)

According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother (which the Virgin Mary was) or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew; one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish.



Are you saying Jesus did not practice the laws of the Torah?

Yet he was a religious Jew.What type of religion did he had?Was he a Rabbi also?Doesn't a Rabbi need special appointing?How would he and his followers look like and how would they have worship?

Why does it matter?  The degree of His Jewishness....has little to do with his ministry.  Don't look at what He was....look to what He taught.


What he taught seems to comprise more greek, buddhist, hindus philosophy than rabbinical judaism philosophy and OT dubiousness.



You do know that there was no such thing as rabbinical Judaism until after the Temple was destroyed? Where do you get the notion that He taught Buddhist and Hindu philosophy? What are you reading that gives you this notion?
Some of the teachings of Buddha and Jesus are similar. This has made some people come up with a theory that jesus, at some point in his youth, travelled to India, where he studied hinduism and buddhism. Of course these people often completely ignore all the things which Christ said, that have nothing in common with hindu or buddhist theology and philosophy.
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #84 on: January 24, 2013, 12:41:25 PM »
Some of the teachings of Buddha and Jesus are similar. This has made some people come up with a theory that jesus, at some point in his youth, travelled to India, where he studied hinduism and buddhism. Of course these people often completely ignore all the things which Christ said, that have nothing in common with hindu or buddhist theology and philosophy.

I'm just surprised that those old worn-out ideas are still kicking around - slipshod scholarship and new-agey wishful thinking, IMHO.
"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #85 on: January 24, 2013, 02:16:40 PM »
Were there religious jews of the Torah/the Covenant outside Jewish sects on the time of Jesus? How did they exercised their religion?
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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #86 on: January 24, 2013, 02:24:22 PM »
Jesus was a Jew that God loved. Jesus was a Jew that loved God. Jesus was is a God that loved Jews.

....fixed that for you.  :)

According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother (which the Virgin Mary was) or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew; one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish.



Are you saying Jesus did not practice the laws of the Torah?

Yet he was a religious Jew.What type of religion did he had?Was he a Rabbi also?Doesn't a Rabbi need special appointing?How would he and his followers look like and how would they have worship?

Why does it matter?  The degree of His Jewishness....has little to do with his ministry.  Don't look at what He was....look to what He taught.


What he taught seems to comprise more greek, buddhist, hindus philosophy than rabbinical judaism philosophy and OT dubiousness.



You do know that there was no such thing as rabbinical Judaism until after the Temple was destroyed? Where do you get the notion that He taught Buddhist and Hindu philosophy? What are you reading that gives you this notion?

What would have been the jewish schools of thought that existed on the time of Jesus? Did he have any relationship with any of them?

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Offline mike

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #87 on: January 24, 2013, 02:27:35 PM »
Were there religious jews of the Torah/the Covenant outside Jewish sects on the time of Jesus? How did they exercised their religion?

Do you mean Samaritans?
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Offline Romaios

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #88 on: January 24, 2013, 02:48:20 PM »
Were there religious jews of the Torah/the Covenant outside Jewish sects on the time of Jesus? How did they exercised their religion?

All of the Jewish "sects" (Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes, Samaritans, Zealots) would have understood themselves as 'Jews of the Covenant' and Torah observers.

The ordinary "lay" Palestinian Jew who was not schooled in any of these sects would have:

- listened occasionally to some famous rabbi that came to town, perhaps hoping to see miracles or have some of their problems solved;

- gone out to the desert to see an extraordinary prophet like John the Baptist and perhaps receive his baptism to break up with sin and start a new life;

- made his pilgrimage to Jerusalem for the Great Feasts to 'appear before the Lord' at the Temple and bring his sacrifices; if not 3 times every year, as the Torah required of all men of Israel, then at least once or maybe several times in his lifetime;

- attended the local synagogue on Sabbath, where the Torah was read out in Hebrew (which he wouldn't have understood much) and then translated/paraphrased by a meturgeman (interpreter) in his native Aramaic;

- roughly adhered to the prescriptions of Mosaic Law and Jewish customs (circumcision, marriage, death & mourning);

- expected the Messiah to free them from Roman occupation and restore the Kingdom of David to its former glory.

The Pharisees would call them 'am ha'aretz (people of the land/country men/peasants), ignorant in the ways of the Torah, and Jesus took pity on their multitudes and viewed them as "sheep without a shepherd".   
« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 03:03:29 PM by Romaios »

Offline mike

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Re: How Jewish was Jesus?
« Reply #89 on: January 24, 2013, 02:50:06 PM »
Were there religious jews of the Torah/the Covenant outside Jewish sects on the time of Jesus? How did they exercised their religion?

All of the Jewish "sects" (Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes, Samaritans, Zealots) would have understood themselves as 'Jews of the Covenant' and Torah observers.

The ordinary "lay" Palestinian Jew who was not schooled in any of these sects would have:

- listened occasionally to some famous rabbi that came to town, perhaps hoping to see miracles or have some of their problems solved;

- gone out to the desert to see an extraordinary prophet like John the Baptist and perhaps receive his baptism to break up with sin and start a new life;

- made his pilgrimage to Jerusalem for the Great Feasts to 'appear before the Lord' at the Temple and bring his sacrifices; if not 3 times every year, as the Torah required of all men of Israel, than at least once or maybe several times in his lifetime;

- attended the local synagogues on Sabbath;

- roughly adhered to the prescriptions of Mosaic Law and Jewish customs (circumcision, marriage, death & mourning).

The Pharisees would call them 'am ha'aretz (people of the land/country men/peasants), ignorant in the ways of the Torah, and Jesus took pity on their multitudes and viewed them as "sheep without a shepherd".   

Samaritans were not treated as Jews by Jews.
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