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Author Topic: How Jewish was Jesus?  (Read 2391 times) Average Rating: 0
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FlickFlack
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« on: January 22, 2013, 01:39:02 PM »

Jesus lived, taught, and died as a Jew. He defined himself and his Jewishness in much the same way as today's Torah-observant Jews. He conducted himself as a devout rabbi and Pharisee. He wore a Jewish head covering, prayed in the Hebrew language, ate only kosher food, honored the Sabbath, had the mezuzah parchment on the doorposts of his home, lit a Chanukah menorah, wore the tzitzit-fringes, donned telfillin daily, wave an esrog and lulav on Sukkot, ate matzo on Passover, and studied the Torah regularly. He enjoyed the selfsame relationship with God shared by all Jews.

"Kosher Jesus," Shmuley Boteach pg. x (introduction)

How Jewish was Jesus?
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« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2013, 01:52:57 PM »

He enjoyed the selfsame relationship with God shared by all Jews.

What does that even mean? And what is this post?
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« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2013, 02:02:19 PM »

How could Shmuley possibly know most of that? Also, his series Shalom in the Home was one of the more offensive reality tv shows I've seen.
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« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2013, 02:05:42 PM »

How could Shmuley possibly know most of that? Also, his series Shalom in the Home was one of the more offensive reality tv shows I've seen.

Oh.
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Shalom in the Home. 707i

YIM missed out on a franchise!
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« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2013, 02:08:05 PM »

I dunno.I am asking you how Jewish do u think Jesus was?
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« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2013, 02:09:13 PM »

Jesus lived, taught, and died as a Jew. He defined himself and his Jewishness in much the same way as today's Torah-observant Jews. He conducted himself as a devout rabbi and Pharisee. He wore a Jewish head covering, prayed in the Hebrew language, ate only kosher food, honored the Sabbath, had the mezuzah parchment on the doorposts of his home, lit a Chanukah menorah, wore the tzitzit-fringes, donned telfillin daily, wave an esrog and lulav on Sukkot, ate matzo on Passover, and studied the Torah regularly. He enjoyed the selfsame relationship with God shared by all Jews.

"Kosher Jesus," Shmuley Boteach pg. x (introduction)

How Jewish was Jesus?

This is nearly as funny as *'s post. A mezuzah!
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Happy 450th birthday, Mr. Shakespeare!


« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2013, 02:11:26 PM »

Depends on who you ask. The pharisees didn't like him because he broke their rules. The sadducees didn't like him because he was a trouble maker. The essenes wouldn't have liked him because he had the nerve to say that you could live in society and have sex and enjoy yourself and still be saved. Seems like lots of Jews wouldn't have thought him very Jewish/Judaistic according to their own ideas about what a "real Jew" should be. On the other hand, he was born a Jew, raised in a Jewish society, and said he came to preach to Israel. Seems fairly Jewish to me.
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« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2013, 02:12:07 PM »

I dunno.I am asking you how Jewish do u think Jesus was?

Do you see what you are writing?

You ever hear of Nuremberg?

Who a Jew is and in virtue of what has basically been thought about by every great and small mind in Western history. I don't think you are going to get far here except into nonsense you can just google.
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Happy 450th birthday, Mr. Shakespeare!


« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2013, 02:13:24 PM »

Shalom in the Home

I wonder if it's on netflix...  Cool  I ain't watching that again though...
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« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2013, 02:17:13 PM »

Shalom in the Home

I wonder if it's on netflix...  Cool  I ain't watching that again though...

Oh that guy.

Oy gevalt!
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« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2013, 02:37:33 PM »

He was very Jewish.

He taught in the temples, he attended Jewish services in the temples - he was circumcised, his mother was Jewish, Joseph was Jewish, the 12 apostles were Jewish, he kept the Sabbath, recognized the Sabbath, and only bumped head with the pharisees on the radicalness they imposed on the Sabbath.

He fulfilled Jewish prophecy.  He even stated "salvation comes from the Jews".

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« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2013, 02:45:56 PM »

Depends on who you ask. The pharisees didn't like him because he broke their rules. The sadducees didn't like him because he was a trouble maker. The essenes wouldn't have liked him because he had the nerve to say that you could live in society and have sex and enjoy yourself and still be saved. Seems like lots of Jews wouldn't have thought him very Jewish/Judaistic according to their own ideas about what a "real Jew" should be. On the other hand, he was born a Jew, raised in a Jewish society, and said he came to preach to Israel. Seems fairly Jewish to me.

So what was he than?
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« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2013, 02:52:30 PM »

Was Jesus a Rabbi?
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« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2013, 02:56:52 PM »

He was very Jewish.

He taught in the temples, he attended Jewish services in the temples - he was circumcised, his mother was Jewish, Joseph was Jewish, the 12 apostles were Jewish, he kept the Sabbath, recognized the Sabbath, and only bumped head with the pharisees on the radicalness they imposed on the Sabbath.

He fulfilled Jewish prophecy.  He even stated "salvation comes from the Jews".



So what type of Jew would you say He was?Pharisee, Sadducee, Essene?From what school of thought did he came?
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« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2013, 03:01:03 PM »

He was very Jewish.

He taught in the temples, he attended Jewish services in the temples - he was circumcised, his mother was Jewish, Joseph was Jewish, the 12 apostles were Jewish, he kept the Sabbath, recognized the Sabbath, and only bumped head with the pharisees on the radicalness they imposed on the Sabbath.

He fulfilled Jewish prophecy.  He even stated "salvation comes from the Jews".



So what type of Jew would you say He was?Pharisee, Sadducee, Ebionite?From what school of thought did he came?

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« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2013, 03:02:47 PM »

He was very Jewish.

He taught in the temples, he attended Jewish services in the temples - he was circumcised, his mother was Jewish, Joseph was Jewish, the 12 apostles were Jewish, he kept the Sabbath, recognized the Sabbath, and only bumped head with the pharisees on the radicalness they imposed on the Sabbath.

He fulfilled Jewish prophecy.  He even stated "salvation comes from the Jews".



So what type of Jew would you say He was?Pharisee, Sadducee, Ebionite?From what school of thought did he came?

You have to remember that the Pharisees, the Sadducees and all the others were political and religious parties. Not all jews belonged to one specific group.
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« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2013, 03:07:05 PM »

He was very Jewish.

He taught in the temples, he attended Jewish services in the temples - he was circumcised, his mother was Jewish, Joseph was Jewish, the 12 apostles were Jewish, he kept the Sabbath, recognized the Sabbath, and only bumped head with the pharisees on the radicalness they imposed on the Sabbath.

He fulfilled Jewish prophecy.  He even stated "salvation comes from the Jews".



So what type of Jew would you say He was?Pharisee, Sadducee, Ebionite?From what school of thought did he came?

You have to remember that the Pharisees, the Sadducees and all the others were political and religious parties. Not all jews belonged to one specific group.

How do you know this? And wouldn't that exclude them from partaking in the religious life of that time?
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« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2013, 03:10:09 PM »

Depends on who you ask. The pharisees didn't like him because he broke their rules. The sadducees didn't like him because he was a trouble maker. The essenes wouldn't have liked him because he had the nerve to say that you could live in society and have sex and enjoy yourself and still be saved. Seems like lots of Jews wouldn't have thought him very Jewish/Judaistic according to their own ideas about what a "real Jew" should be. On the other hand, he was born a Jew, raised in a Jewish society, and said he came to preach to Israel. Seems fairly Jewish to me.

So how would you describe his Jewish belongness?
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« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2013, 03:12:21 PM »

Depends on who you ask. The pharisees didn't like him because he broke their rules. The sadducees didn't like him because he was a trouble maker. The essenes wouldn't have liked him because he had the nerve to say that you could live in society and have sex and enjoy yourself and still be saved. Seems like lots of Jews wouldn't have thought him very Jewish/Judaistic according to their own ideas about what a "real Jew" should be. On the other hand, he was born a Jew, raised in a Jewish society, and said he came to preach to Israel. Seems fairly Jewish to me.

So how would you describe his Jewish belongness?

To paraphrase many of my Jewish friends (say this in the stereotypical NY Jew accent with your arms out and palms up while shrugging): "He's a Jew!"
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« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2013, 03:13:24 PM »

Depends on who you ask. The pharisees didn't like him because he broke their rules. The sadducees didn't like him because he was a trouble maker. The essenes wouldn't have liked him because he had the nerve to say that you could live in society and have sex and enjoy yourself and still be saved. Seems like lots of Jews wouldn't have thought him very Jewish/Judaistic according to their own ideas about what a "real Jew" should be. On the other hand, he was born a Jew, raised in a Jewish society, and said he came to preach to Israel. Seems fairly Jewish to me.

So how would you describe his Jewish belongness?

To paraphrase many of my Jewish friends (say this in the stereotypical NY Jew accent with your arms out and palms up while shrugging): "He's a Jew!"


How?
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« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2013, 03:15:18 PM »

Depends on who you ask. The pharisees didn't like him because he broke their rules. The sadducees didn't like him because he was a trouble maker. The essenes wouldn't have liked him because he had the nerve to say that you could live in society and have sex and enjoy yourself and still be saved. Seems like lots of Jews wouldn't have thought him very Jewish/Judaistic according to their own ideas about what a "real Jew" should be. On the other hand, he was born a Jew, raised in a Jewish society, and said he came to preach to Israel. Seems fairly Jewish to me.

So how would you describe his Jewish belongness?

To paraphrase many of my Jewish friends (say this in the stereotypical NY Jew accent with your arms out and palms up while shrugging): "He's a Jew!"


How?

I really have no idea how to answer this anymore clearly.  You seem to want to put Jesus in some category like Pharisee or Saducee like thsoe were the only options.  Most Jews in his day were just "Jews," that is, people of the Covenant.  They tried their best (or worst) to follow the Law as they were taught it by various teachers and that was it. 
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« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2013, 03:15:51 PM »

He was very Jewish.

He taught in the temples, he attended Jewish services in the temples - he was circumcised, his mother was Jewish, Joseph was Jewish, the 12 apostles were Jewish, he kept the Sabbath, recognized the Sabbath, and only bumped head with the pharisees on the radicalness they imposed on the Sabbath.

He fulfilled Jewish prophecy.  He even stated "salvation comes from the Jews".



So what type of Jew would you say He was?Pharisee, Sadducee, Ebionite?From what school of thought did he came?

You have to remember that the Pharisees, the Sadducees and all the others were political and religious parties. Not all jews belonged to one specific group.

How do you know this? And wouldn't that exclude them from partaking in the religious life of that time?
You only have to read the bible. All the groups, whith whom Jesus argues, are described as parties, outside the general population.

Secondly, it only makes sense. There have never been a society, where the whole population were directly involved in religious or political organizations.
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« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2013, 03:16:49 PM »

Depends on who you ask. The pharisees didn't like him because he broke their rules. The sadducees didn't like him because he was a trouble maker. The essenes wouldn't have liked him because he had the nerve to say that you could live in society and have sex and enjoy yourself and still be saved. Seems like lots of Jews wouldn't have thought him very Jewish/Judaistic according to their own ideas about what a "real Jew" should be. On the other hand, he was born a Jew, raised in a Jewish society, and said he came to preach to Israel. Seems fairly Jewish to me.

So how would you describe his Jewish belongness?

To paraphrase many of my Jewish friends (say this in the stereotypical NY Jew accent with your arms out and palms up while shrugging): "He's a Jew!"


How?

I really have no idea how to answer this anymore clearly.  You seem to want to put Jesus in some category like Pharisee or Saducee like thsoe were the only options.  Most Jews in his day were just "Jews," that is, people of the Covenant.  They tried their best (or worst) to follow the Law as they were taught it by various teachers and that was it. 

This, definately this.
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« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2013, 03:20:22 PM »

He was very Jewish.

He taught in the temples, he attended Jewish services in the temples - he was circumcised, his mother was Jewish, Joseph was Jewish, the 12 apostles were Jewish, he kept the Sabbath, recognized the Sabbath, and only bumped head with the pharisees on the radicalness they imposed on the Sabbath.

He fulfilled Jewish prophecy.  He even stated "salvation comes from the Jews".



So what type of Jew would you say He was?Pharisee, Sadducee, Ebionite?From what school of thought did he came?

You have to remember that the Pharisees, the Sadducees and all the others were political and religious parties. Not all jews belonged to one specific group.

How do you know this? And wouldn't that exclude them from partaking in the religious life of that time?
You only have to read the bible. All the groups, whith whom Jesus argues, are described as parties, outside the general population.

Secondly, it only makes sense. There have never been a society, where the whole population were directly involved in religious or political organizations.

And?Some might also have nothing on the Mosaic religion.Some could have been pagans or atheists.In demography there is no totaliarism.

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« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2013, 03:25:45 PM »

He was very Jewish.

He taught in the temples, he attended Jewish services in the temples - he was circumcised, his mother was Jewish, Joseph was Jewish, the 12 apostles were Jewish, he kept the Sabbath, recognized the Sabbath, and only bumped head with the pharisees on the radicalness they imposed on the Sabbath.

He fulfilled Jewish prophecy.  He even stated "salvation comes from the Jews".



So what type of Jew would you say He was?Pharisee, Sadducee, Ebionite?From what school of thought did he came?

You have to remember that the Pharisees, the Sadducees and all the others were political and religious parties. Not all jews belonged to one specific group.

How do you know this? And wouldn't that exclude them from partaking in the religious life of that time?
You only have to read the bible. All the groups, whith whom Jesus argues, are described as parties, outside the general population.

Secondly, it only makes sense. There have never been a society, where the whole population were directly involved in religious or political organizations.

And?Some might also have nothing on the Mosaic religion.Some could have been pagans or atheists.In demography there is no totaliarism.



You asked me how I could know that Jesus was not part of any of the above mentioned groups and I gave you and answer. Why are you replying by stating what I have already said?
As Schultz said, most of the people were probably just jews. Nothing more, nothing less.
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« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2013, 03:36:50 PM »

Depends on who you ask. The pharisees didn't like him because he broke their rules. The sadducees didn't like him because he was a trouble maker. The essenes wouldn't have liked him because he had the nerve to say that you could live in society and have sex and enjoy yourself and still be saved. Seems like lots of Jews wouldn't have thought him very Jewish/Judaistic according to their own ideas about what a "real Jew" should be. On the other hand, he was born a Jew, raised in a Jewish society, and said he came to preach to Israel. Seems fairly Jewish to me.

So how would you describe his Jewish belongness?

To paraphrase many of my Jewish friends (say this in the stereotypical NY Jew accent with your arms out and palms up while shrugging): "He's a Jew!"


How?

I really have no idea how to answer this anymore clearly.  You seem to want to put Jesus in some category like Pharisee or Saducee like thsoe were the only options.  Most Jews in his day were just "Jews," that is, people of the Covenant.  They tried their best (or worst) to follow the Law as they were taught it by various teachers and that was it.  

I bet there were non-religious Jews on his days also, but I don't think you would say the same for Jesus.

Jews, people of the Covenant?How could they be people of the covenant and follow the Law by themselves?They could not follow the Law and the Covenant without bondange to religion, religious rituals, religious mediators, religious buildings that are all contained , interconnected and required in the Law and the Covenant.


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« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2013, 03:41:24 PM »

I wish I were a Jew; they always have a lot of money. I bet I'd rack up thousands of dollars in gift money if I had a bar mitzvah.
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« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2013, 03:42:17 PM »

He was very Jewish.

He taught in the temples, he attended Jewish services in the temples - he was circumcised, his mother was Jewish, Joseph was Jewish, the 12 apostles were Jewish, he kept the Sabbath, recognized the Sabbath, and only bumped head with the pharisees on the radicalness they imposed on the Sabbath.

He fulfilled Jewish prophecy.  He even stated "salvation comes from the Jews".



So what type of Jew would you say He was?Pharisee, Sadducee, Ebionite?From what school of thought did he came?

You have to remember that the Pharisees, the Sadducees and all the others were political and religious parties. Not all jews belonged to one specific group.

How do you know this? And wouldn't that exclude them from partaking in the religious life of that time?
You only have to read the bible. All the groups, whith whom Jesus argues, are described as parties, outside the general population.

Secondly, it only makes sense. There have never been a society, where the whole population were directly involved in religious or political organizations.

And?Some might also have nothing on the Mosaic religion.Some could have been pagans or atheists.In demography there is no totaliarism.



You asked me how I could know that Jesus was not part of any of the above mentioned groups and I gave you and answer. Why are you replying by stating what I have already said?
As Schultz said, most of the people were probably just jews. Nothing more, nothing less.

Jesus was a religious Jew not an atheist Jew nor a pagan one, or do you disagree with this statement?

In the first century one could not have been a Jew of the covenant without bonding to the religious authorities of those times.You would need the Levitical/Aaronic priesthood to mediate and offer sacrifices to God and perform the religion of the Old Testament and sustain the worship of the Old Testament.
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« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2013, 03:43:53 PM »

restating : My question is what type of Jew Jesus was?
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« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2013, 03:46:03 PM »

God-beloved Jew
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« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2013, 03:48:05 PM »

God-beloved Jew

not according to the word of some Jews and can you elaborate?

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« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2013, 03:50:06 PM »

In the first century one could not have been a Jew of the covenant without bonding to the religious authorities of those times.You would need the Levitical/Aaronic priesthood to mediate and offer sacrifices to God and perform the religion of the Old Testament and sustain the worship of the Old Testament.

Our Lord never offered sacrifice for himself (only Luke mentions a pair of turtledoves brought by his parents when he was circumcised). He taught in the Temple and in the synagogues. The only religious figure he spoke highly of was his cousin, John, whose baptism he received.  
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« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2013, 03:53:05 PM »

Jesus was a Jew that God loved. Jesus was a Jew that loved God. Jesus was a God that loved Jews.
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« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2013, 03:59:24 PM »

He was very Jewish.

He taught in the temples, he attended Jewish services in the temples - he was circumcised, his mother was Jewish, Joseph was Jewish, the 12 apostles were Jewish, he kept the Sabbath, recognized the Sabbath, and only bumped head with the pharisees on the radicalness they imposed on the Sabbath.

He fulfilled Jewish prophecy.  He even stated "salvation comes from the Jews".



It is said he broke the sabbath, he did not show up on the Jewish holidays and others as such. How do we know he was a Jew?His circumcision and other Jewish rituals as such had nothing to do with his(human) will and has always interfere with the Jewish authorities of that time.His philosophy was beyond the narrow Jewish one and had incorporated the wide philosophy of all religions and a philosophy of liberty.We can't really know exactly what he said, the first gospel was written after at least 30 years after his death by Mark who was an indirect witness the scholars say.And the one who wrote in his Gospel that part was apparently not present at the conversation Jesus had when he said this , because all the apostles were gone when he spoke with the Samaritan woman.
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« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2013, 04:00:24 PM »

Jesus was a Jew that God loved. Jesus was a Jew that loved God. Jesus was a God that loved Jews.

Or a non-Jew that God loved.
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« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2013, 04:07:32 PM »

Jesus was a Jew that God loved. Jesus was a Jew that loved God. Jesus was is a God that loved Jews.

....fixed that for you.  Smiley

According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother (which the Virgin Mary was) or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew; one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish.

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« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2013, 04:11:42 PM »

Jesus was a Jew that God loved. Jesus was a Jew that loved God. Jesus was is a God that loved Jews.

....fixed that for you.  Smiley

According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother (which the Virgin Mary was) or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew; one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish.



Are you saying Jesus did not practice the laws of the Torah?

Yet he was a religious Jew.What type of religion did he had?Was he a Rabbi also?Doesn't a Rabbi need special appointing?How would he and his followers look like and how would they have worship?
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« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2013, 04:13:05 PM »

What is the scale of how Jewish someone is for us to say how Jewish they are?
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« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2013, 04:14:33 PM »

Jesus was a Jew that God loved. Jesus was a Jew that loved God. Jesus was is a God that loved Jews.

....fixed that for you.  Smiley

According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother (which the Virgin Mary was) or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew; one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish.



Are you saying Jesus did not practice the laws of the Torah?

Yet he was a religious Jew.What type of religion did he had?Was he a Rabbi also?Doesn't a Rabbi need special appointing?How would he and his followers look like and how would they have worship?

Why does it matter?  The degree of His Jewishness....has little to do with his ministry.  Don't look at what He was....look to what He taught.
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« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2013, 04:16:18 PM »

It is said he broke the sabbath, he did not show up on the Jewish holidays and others as such.

He did not "break it" - the accusations that he performed miracles on that day or that he let his disciples pick grain from the fields and eat it were but petty accusations brought against him.  

He went up to Jerusalem for the Feast of Booths (Sukkoth) - cf. John 7, the Feast of the Dedication of the Temple (Hanukkah) - cf. John 10, and ate Pascha with his disciples before he was crucified.
 
And the one who wrote in his Gospel that part was apparently not present at the conversation Jesus had when he said this , because all the apostles were gone when he spoke with the Samaritan woman.

She could have told the story herself - she immediately dashed to tell it to all the people of her city, according to John 4, 28-29.
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« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2013, 04:16:40 PM »

What is the scale of how Jewish someone is for us to say how Jewish they are?

The scale is nominal Judaism.
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« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2013, 04:18:24 PM »

Jesus was a Jew that God loved. Jesus was a Jew that loved God. Jesus was is a God that loved Jews.

....fixed that for you.  Smiley

According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother (which the Virgin Mary was) or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew; one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish.



Are you saying Jesus did not practice the laws of the Torah?

Yet he was a religious Jew.What type of religion did he had?Was he a Rabbi also?Doesn't a Rabbi need special appointing?How would he and his followers look like and how would they have worship?

Why does it matter?  The degree of His Jewishness....has little to do with his ministry.  Don't look at what He was....look to what He taught.


It matters enormously , at least from my pov and for me, to get a better picture on how the historical Jesus may have looked alike.
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« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2013, 04:18:39 PM »

He was very Jewish.

He taught in the temples, he attended Jewish services in the temples - he was circumcised, his mother was Jewish, Joseph was Jewish, the 12 apostles were Jewish, he kept the Sabbath, recognized the Sabbath, and only bumped head with the pharisees on the radicalness they imposed on the Sabbath.

He fulfilled Jewish prophecy.  He even stated "salvation comes from the Jews".



So what type of Jew would you say He was?Pharisee, Sadducee, Ebionite?From what school of thought did he came?

You have to remember that the Pharisees, the Sadducees and all the others were political and religious parties. Not all jews belonged to one specific group.

How do you know this? And wouldn't that exclude them from partaking in the religious life of that time?
You only have to read the bible. All the groups, whith whom Jesus argues, are described as parties, outside the general population.

Secondly, it only makes sense. There have never been a society, where the whole population were directly involved in religious or political organizations.

And?Some might also have nothing on the Mosaic religion.Some could have been pagans or atheists.In demography there is no totaliarism.



You asked me how I could know that Jesus was not part of any of the above mentioned groups and I gave you and answer. Why are you replying by stating what I have already said?
As Schultz said, most of the people were probably just jews. Nothing more, nothing less.

Jesus was a religious Jew not an atheist Jew nor a pagan one, or do you disagree with this statement?

In the first century one could not have been a Jew of the covenant without bonding to the religious authorities of those times.You would need the Levitical/Aaronic priesthood to mediate and offer sacrifices to God and perform the religion of the Old Testament and sustain the worship of the Old Testament.
Nobody here has ever claimed that all jews at that time were observant. The term "Jew" can refer both to the adherents of the jewish religion as well as the jewish people, who are defined as those who are born of a jewish mother (at least as far as I know).

 
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« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2013, 04:23:11 PM »

Jesus was a Jew that God loved. Jesus was a Jew that loved God. Jesus was is a God that loved Jews.

....fixed that for you.  Smiley

According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother (which the Virgin Mary was) or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew; one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish.



Are you saying Jesus did not practice the laws of the Torah?

Yet he was a religious Jew.What type of religion did he had?Was he a Rabbi also?Doesn't a Rabbi need special appointing?How would he and his followers look like and how would they have worship?

Why does it matter?  The degree of His Jewishness....has little to do with his ministry.  Don't look at what He was....look to what He taught.


It matters enormously , at least from my pov and for me, to get a better picture on how the historical Jesus may have looked alike.

Here is a recontructed image, made by scientists, of how an average man from that area, at the time of Christ could have looked like.


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« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2013, 04:25:33 PM »

Jesus was a Jew that God loved. Jesus was a Jew that loved God. Jesus was is a God that loved Jews.

....fixed that for you.  Smiley

According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother (which the Virgin Mary was) or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew; one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish.



Are you saying Jesus did not practice the laws of the Torah?

Yet he was a religious Jew.What type of religion did he had?Was he a Rabbi also?Doesn't a Rabbi need special appointing?How would he and his followers look like and how would they have worship?

Why does it matter?  The degree of His Jewishness....has little to do with his ministry.  Don't look at what He was....look to what He taught.


What he taught seems to comprise more greek, buddhist, hindus philosophy than rabbinical judaism philosophy and OT dubiousness.

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« Reply #45 on: January 22, 2013, 04:28:35 PM »

Jesus...prayed in the Hebrew language

I thought that the Jews in that time spoke Aramaic? 
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« Reply #46 on: January 22, 2013, 04:31:47 PM »

Jesus...prayed in the Hebrew language

I thought that the Jews in that time spoke Aramaic? 

Spoke Aramaic.  Prayed in Hebrew.  Kind of like speaking in Italian and praying in Latin.
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« Reply #47 on: January 22, 2013, 04:32:14 PM »

Jesus...prayed in the Hebrew language

I thought that the Jews in that time spoke Aramaic? 

Spoke Aramaic.  Prayed in Hebrew.  Kind of like speaking in Italian and praying in Latin.
Oh, I see.
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« Reply #48 on: January 22, 2013, 04:32:37 PM »

What he taught seems to comprise more greek, buddhist, hindus philosophy than rabbinical judaism philosophy and OT dubiousness.

He sure quotes a lot of "OT dubiousness" for a Greek philosopher or a Hindu guru! As for the Judaisms of his day, they were more than one and not yet "rabbinical". The ancestors of rabbinical Judaism were the Pharisees. Flavius Josephus describes them as a sect/school (hairesis) among others.
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« Reply #49 on: January 22, 2013, 04:36:19 PM »

What is the scale of how Jewish someone is for us to say how Jewish they are?

The scale is nominal Judaism.

So do I say something like, "he's Adam Sandler-ish Jew"?
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« Reply #50 on: January 22, 2013, 04:51:30 PM »

How Jewish was Jesus?

100%!!!

That's the whole point of the genealogies in Matthew and Luke; that's the whole point of Jesus' circumcision and his presentation in the Temple; that's the whole point of the OT prophesies about the Messiah, now fulfilled in the Nazarene; that's the whole point of Jesus' conversation with the Samaritan woman at the well; that's the whole point of the apostolic claim that Christ has broken down the boundaries between Jew and Gentile, etc., etc.  The New Testament makes no sense at all if Jesus is not Jewish.

"But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons" (Gal 4:4-5). 

Being a Jew has nothing to do with the question of Jesus' relationship to the Pharisees and Saduccees.  That's like asking if he was a Republican or Democrat.  Jesus was born of a Jewish mother.  Jesus was circumcised.  Jesus was raised as a Jew.  Jesus was taught Torah.  Jesus participated fully in the ritual and sacrificial life of his people.  Jesus celebrated Passover.  Jesus was arrested and condemned by the Jewish authorities as a messianic pretender and condemned by the Roman authorities as a Jewish insurrectionist. 

The offense of the gospel may be summed up thusly:  the Savior of the world is a Jew!



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« Reply #51 on: January 22, 2013, 05:14:42 PM »

What he taught seems to comprise more greek, buddhist, hindus philosophy than rabbinical judaism philosophy and OT dubiousness.

He sure quotes a lot of "OT dubiousness" for a Greek philosopher or a Hindu guru! As for the Judaisms of his day, they were more than one and not yet "rabbinical". The ancestors of rabbinical Judaism were the Pharisees. Flavius Josephus describes them as a sect/school (hairesis) among others.

I don't see Jesus sustaining executions, murder, genocide, strucking people down and others as such in the NT. You can't know for sure what Jesus actually said, if he existed. You can only know what was attributed to him first at least 30 years after his death by an indirect witness.

What I meant was the philosophy of the Jewish authorities on the time of Jesus..


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« Reply #52 on: January 22, 2013, 05:25:01 PM »

What he taught seems to comprise more greek, buddhist, hindus philosophy than rabbinical judaism philosophy and OT dubiousness.

He sure quotes a lot of "OT dubiousness" for a Greek philosopher or a Hindu guru! As for the Judaisms of his day, they were more than one and not yet "rabbinical". The ancestors of rabbinical Judaism were the Pharisees. Flavius Josephus describes them as a sect/school (hairesis) among others.

I don't see Jesus sustaining executions, murder, genocide, strucking people down and others as such in the NT. You can't know for sure what Jesus actually said, if he existed. You can only know what was attributed to him first at least 30 years after his death by an indirect witness.

What I meant was the philosophy of the Jewish authorities on the time of Jesus..




What do you mean "if" He existed?

Are you an Orthodox Christian?
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« Reply #53 on: January 22, 2013, 05:29:47 PM »

Quote
You can't know for sure what Jesus actually said, if he existed. You can only know what was attributed to him first at least 30 years after his death by an indirect witness.

Much of what we know about history, comes from sources that was written a long time after the events occured. For example, much of what we know about the first emperor of China, comes from the Shiji, which was written about a hundred years after the emperors death. And much of what was written in the chronicle, has turned out to be correct.
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« Reply #54 on: January 22, 2013, 05:36:04 PM »

How Jewish was Jesus?

100%!!!

That's the whole point of the genealogies in Matthew and Luke; that's the whole point of Jesus' circumcision and his presentation in the Temple; that's the whole point of the OT prophesies about the Messiah, now fulfilled in the Nazarene; that's the whole point of Jesus' conversation with the Samaritan woman at the well; that's the whole point of the apostolic claim that Christ has broken down the boundaries between Jew and Gentile, etc., etc.  The New Testament makes no sense at all if Jesus is not Jewish.

"But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons" (Gal 4:4-5).  

Being a Jew has nothing to do with the question of Jesus' relationship to the Pharisees and Saduccees.  That's like asking if he was a Republican or Democrat.  Jesus was born of a Jewish mother.  Jesus was circumcised.  Jesus was raised as a Jew.  Jesus was taught Torah.  Jesus participated fully in the ritual and sacrificial life of his people.  Jesus celebrated Passover.  Jesus was arrested and condemned by the Jewish authorities as a messianic pretender and condemned by the Roman authorities as a Jewish insurrectionist.  

The offense of the gospel may be summed up thusly:  the Savior of the world is a Jew!





What proof do you have that Jesus was raised as a Jew, thought the Torah and that he participated in the ritual and sacrificial life of his people? For example there are circumstances when Jesus is not mentioned as participating on the Jewish feasts from the beginning.. Jesus is portraited as purposely healing on the Sabbath and in John even says that he loose/broke the Sabbath. Than he appears to imply that all foods are clean, Mark even has it said "thus making all foods clean".. There is no mention of an actual Paschal Lamb at the Meal of the Last Supper.

If Jewishness is taken matrilineal than why does Joseph appear in both genealogies?

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« Reply #55 on: January 22, 2013, 05:37:46 PM »

What he taught seems to comprise more greek, buddhist, hindus philosophy than rabbinical judaism philosophy and OT dubiousness.

He sure quotes a lot of "OT dubiousness" for a Greek philosopher or a Hindu guru! As for the Judaisms of his day, they were more than one and not yet "rabbinical". The ancestors of rabbinical Judaism were the Pharisees. Flavius Josephus describes them as a sect/school (hairesis) among others.

I don't see Jesus sustaining executions, murder, genocide, strucking people down and others as such in the NT. You can't know for sure what Jesus actually said, if he existed. You can only know what was attributed to him first at least 30 years after his death by an indirect witness.

What I meant was the philosophy of the Jewish authorities on the time of Jesus..




What do you mean "if" He existed?

Are you an Orthodox Christian?


Yes, but I prefer to keep an eye on skepticism for the sake of realism.
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« Reply #56 on: January 22, 2013, 05:41:55 PM »

How Jewish was Jesus?

100%!!!

That's the whole point of the genealogies in Matthew and Luke; that's the whole point of Jesus' circumcision and his presentation in the Temple; that's the whole point of the OT prophesies about the Messiah, now fulfilled in the Nazarene; that's the whole point of Jesus' conversation with the Samaritan woman at the well; that's the whole point of the apostolic claim that Christ has broken down the boundaries between Jew and Gentile, etc., etc.  The New Testament makes no sense at all if Jesus is not Jewish.

"But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons" (Gal 4:4-5).  

Being a Jew has nothing to do with the question of Jesus' relationship to the Pharisees and Saduccees.  That's like asking if he was a Republican or Democrat.  Jesus was born of a Jewish mother.  Jesus was circumcised.  Jesus was raised as a Jew.  Jesus was taught Torah.  Jesus participated fully in the ritual and sacrificial life of his people.  Jesus celebrated Passover.  Jesus was arrested and condemned by the Jewish authorities as a messianic pretender and condemned by the Roman authorities as a Jewish insurrectionist.  

The offense of the gospel may be summed up thusly:  the Savior of the world is a Jew!





Those genealogies are inconsistent.. What proof do you have that Jesus was raised as a Jew, thought the Torah and that he participated in the ritual and sacrificial life of his people? For example there are circumstances when Jesus is not mentioned as participating on the Jewish feasts from the beginning.. Jesus is portraited as purposely healing on the Sabbath and in John even says that he loose/broke the Sabbath. Than he appears to imply that all foods are clean, Mark even has it said "thus making all foods clean".. There is no mention of an actual Paschal Lamb at the Meal of the Last Supper.There is an inconsistency between the synoptics and the Gospel of John regarding the days.. There are inconsistencies between stories..    In various circumstances John the Baptist is said to tell people that Jesus was indeed the Messiah and that they should follow him and that God revealed him that he was the Messiah, though later before his death he sents his disciples to ask him if he really was the Messiah..
What you mention are petty details. Do you expect the authors of the gospels to write down every single detail about Jesus' movements and surroundings?
Regarding John the baptist, that is a little thing, called doubt. That does not in any way imply inconsistency.
 
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« Reply #57 on: January 22, 2013, 06:17:37 PM »

What he taught seems to comprise more greek, buddhist, hindus philosophy than rabbinical judaism philosophy and OT dubiousness.

He sure quotes a lot of "OT dubiousness" for a Greek philosopher or a Hindu guru! As for the Judaisms of his day, they were more than one and not yet "rabbinical". The ancestors of rabbinical Judaism were the Pharisees. Flavius Josephus describes them as a sect/school (hairesis) among others.

I don't see Jesus sustaining executions, murder, genocide, strucking people down and others as such in the NT. You can't know for sure what Jesus actually said, if he existed. You can only know what was attributed to him first at least 30 years after his death by an indirect witness.

What I meant was the philosophy of the Jewish authorities on the time of Jesus..




What do you mean "if" He existed?

Are you an Orthodox Christian?


Yes, but I prefer to keep an eye on skepticism for the sake of realism.

So, do you believe Christ existed or not?
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« Reply #58 on: January 22, 2013, 06:23:03 PM »

What he taught seems to comprise more greek, buddhist, hindus philosophy than rabbinical judaism philosophy and OT dubiousness.

He sure quotes a lot of "OT dubiousness" for a Greek philosopher or a Hindu guru! As for the Judaisms of his day, they were more than one and not yet "rabbinical". The ancestors of rabbinical Judaism were the Pharisees. Flavius Josephus describes them as a sect/school (hairesis) among others.

I don't see Jesus sustaining executions, murder, genocide, strucking people down and others as such in the NT. You can't know for sure what Jesus actually said, if he existed. You can only know what was attributed to him first at least 30 years after his death by an indirect witness.

What I meant was the philosophy of the Jewish authorities on the time of Jesus..




What do you mean "if" He existed?

Are you an Orthodox Christian?


Yes, but I prefer to keep an eye on skepticism for the sake of realism.

So, do you believe Christ existed or not?


What kind of questions are this? Do you believe Christ existed?Are you an Orthodox Christian?
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« Reply #59 on: January 22, 2013, 06:25:54 PM »

What he taught seems to comprise more greek, buddhist, hindus philosophy than rabbinical judaism philosophy and OT dubiousness.

He sure quotes a lot of "OT dubiousness" for a Greek philosopher or a Hindu guru! As for the Judaisms of his day, they were more than one and not yet "rabbinical". The ancestors of rabbinical Judaism were the Pharisees. Flavius Josephus describes them as a sect/school (hairesis) among others.

I don't see Jesus sustaining executions, murder, genocide, strucking people down and others as such in the NT. You can't know for sure what Jesus actually said, if he existed. You can only know what was attributed to him first at least 30 years after his death by an indirect witness.

What I meant was the philosophy of the Jewish authorities on the time of Jesus..




What do you mean "if" He existed?

Are you an Orthodox Christian?


Yes, but I prefer to keep an eye on skepticism for the sake of realism.

So, do you believe Christ existed or not?


What kind of questions are this? Do you believe Christ existed?Are you an Orthodox Christian?

Christ existing is pretty much the Foundation of Orthodoxy and Christianity as a whole. You've indicated that you might not believe this. That's why you're getting these questions.
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« Reply #60 on: January 22, 2013, 06:34:28 PM »


Oh.
    My.
        G-D.
              
Nice.
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« Reply #61 on: January 22, 2013, 06:36:16 PM »

FlickFlack-

I am not sure anyone here can adequately engage with your questions until such time as you can reveal a bit more of your relationship to the Church. Do you pray? Do you keep the fasts? Do you participate in the sacraments?, etc.

You list your faith as Orthodox, yet you consistently display a propensity to entertain theological and other opinions far outside of the orbit of the Orthodox faith and a concomitant unwillingness to hear about the teachings of the Church on these selfsame matters. I have suggested elsewhere that perhaps a fitting path for you would be to discuss these matters directly with someone within the Church more qualified to address these questions, but in the event that you have missed my suggestion: perhaps you could begin with your parish Priest, asking him to direct you to an Elder or Bishop with a reputation for holiness of life and adherence to the rule of faith? I think of someone like Metropolitan Heirotheos of Nafpaktos, Metropolitan Athanasios of Limassol, Archimandrite Elissaios of Simonos Petras, Mount Athos, etc., as I have gathered that you reside somewhere in Greece.

Please do not take offence, as I am simply trying to help, but you must be willing to listen to your Orthodox brothers and sisters over and above modern-day 'Jews', Protestants, heathens, atheists and sundry heretics. May God grant you this willingness!
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« Reply #62 on: January 22, 2013, 07:47:50 PM »

sundry heretics

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                              Heretic.
                                          Ever.
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« Reply #63 on: January 22, 2013, 07:51:23 PM »

...as I have gathered that you reside somewhere in Greece...

If we can figure out which banned poster he was before he made this new name, we might be able to figure out where he's from. What was your last username FlickFlack?
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« Reply #64 on: January 22, 2013, 08:42:27 PM »


What proof do you have that Jesus was raised as a Jew, thought the Torah and that he participated in the ritual and sacrificial life of his people? For example there are circumstances when Jesus is not mentioned as participating on the Jewish feasts from the beginning.. Jesus is portraited as purposely healing on the Sabbath and in John even says that he loose/broke the Sabbath. Than he appears to imply that all foods are clean, Mark even has it said "thus making all foods clean". There is no mention of an actual Paschal Lamb at the Meal of the Last Supper.

If Jewishness is taken matrilineal than why does Joseph appear in both genealogies?

FlickFlack, you ask me for proof.  I could, of course, just reverse the question, as I think that the burden of proof is on your shoulders.  No reputable biblical scholar or historian would question the Jewishness of Jesus.  You ask me proof that Jesus participated in Temple sacrifices.  I ask you proof that Jesus did not!  Did his opponents ever accuse him of not participating in the sacrifices?  Do you think it likely that Jesus never participated with his family in the Passover? 

That Jesus broke specific taboos regarding ritual eating or healing on the Sabbath does not disprove his Jewishness.  It only proves that he did not follow the Pharisees in their interpretation of Torah.  I think you have a skewed understanding of what it means to be Jewish.   

If you really want to understand Jesus of Nazareth, I suggest that you begin reading the works of N. T. Wright.  A good place to begin would be The Original Jesus, The Challenge of Jesus, and Simply Jesus.

The Savior of the world is a Jew!  That is the good news!
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« Reply #65 on: January 22, 2013, 08:53:07 PM »

What he taught seems to comprise more greek, buddhist, hindus philosophy than rabbinical judaism philosophy and OT dubiousness.

He sure quotes a lot of "OT dubiousness" for a Greek philosopher or a Hindu guru! As for the Judaisms of his day, they were more than one and not yet "rabbinical". The ancestors of rabbinical Judaism were the Pharisees. Flavius Josephus describes them as a sect/school (hairesis) among others.

I don't see Jesus sustaining executions, murder, genocide, strucking people down and others as such in the NT. You can't know for sure what Jesus actually said, if he existed. You can only know what was attributed to him first at least 30 years after his death by an indirect witness.

What I meant was the philosophy of the Jewish authorities on the time of Jesus..




What do you mean "if" He existed?

Are you an Orthodox Christian?


Yes, but I prefer to keep an eye on skepticism for the sake of realism.

So, do you believe Christ existed or not?


What kind of questions are this? Do you believe Christ existed?Are you an Orthodox Christian?

Questions that allow moderators to better manage the forum. Please, answer them. Either privately via PM or publicly here. That's official moderational request.

I'd also like you to answer 3rd question: who is your bishop?
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« Reply #66 on: January 22, 2013, 09:02:30 PM »

How Jewish was Jesus?

100%!!!

That's the whole point of the genealogies in Matthew and Luke; that's the whole point of Jesus' circumcision and his presentation in the Temple; that's the whole point of the OT prophesies about the Messiah, now fulfilled in the Nazarene; that's the whole point of Jesus' conversation with the Samaritan woman at the well; that's the whole point of the apostolic claim that Christ has broken down the boundaries between Jew and Gentile, etc., etc.  The New Testament makes no sense at all if Jesus is not Jewish.

"But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons" (Gal 4:4-5). 

Being a Jew has nothing to do with the question of Jesus' relationship to the Pharisees and Saduccees.  That's like asking if he was a Republican or Democrat.  Jesus was born of a Jewish mother.  Jesus was circumcised.  Jesus was raised as a Jew.  Jesus was taught Torah.  Jesus participated fully in the ritual and sacrificial life of his people.  Jesus celebrated Passover.  Jesus was arrested and condemned by the Jewish authorities as a messianic pretender and condemned by the Roman authorities as a Jewish insurrectionist. 

The offense of the gospel may be summed up thusly:  the Savior of the world is a Jew!

Sorry that your answer seems to have fallen on less than sympathetic ears (eyes?), but thanks for the time and effort to make a sincere and well written effort!
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« Reply #67 on: January 22, 2013, 09:11:25 PM »

He was very Jewish.

He taught in the temples, he attended Jewish services in the temples - he was circumcised, his mother was Jewish, Joseph was Jewish, the 12 apostles were Jewish, he kept the Sabbath, recognized the Sabbath, and only bumped head with the pharisees on the radicalness they imposed on the Sabbath.

He fulfilled Jewish prophecy.  He even stated "salvation comes from the Jews".




It is said he broke the sabbath, he did not show up on the Jewish holidays and others as such. How do we know he was a Jew?His circumcision and other Jewish rituals as such had nothing to do with his(human) will and has always interfere with the Jewish authorities of that time.His philosophy was beyond the narrow Jewish one and had incorporated the wide philosophy of all religions and a philosophy of liberty.We can't really know exactly what he said, the first gospel was written after at least 30 years after his death by Mark who was an indirect witness the scholars say.And the one who wrote in his Gospel that part was apparently not present at the conversation Jesus had when he said this , because all the apostles were gone when he spoke with the Samaritan woman.


Actually he didn't break the Sabbath, he was showing the radical belief that the Jews made of the Sabbath.  They defined "healing a man" as "work" however, he thought differently.  And why not, after all he was God.

It is only listed the holidays that he was not at, thus we can only assume he was at holidays.

His circumcision was proof of his existence within the Jewish community, thus raised Jewish.

The book of Matthew, was the first hand witness, written by the Apostle Matthew who would have had witnessed the events.

Mark (Has been debated) but Luke was not a first hand account.

John... Well I can't touch that here.


I can't answer the question "what kind of Jew was he".   He was absolutely a Jew though, that brought salvation and established HIS church.
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« Reply #68 on: January 22, 2013, 09:19:28 PM »

Jesus was a Jew that God loved. Jesus was a Jew that loved God. Jesus was is a God that loved Jews.

....fixed that for you.  Smiley

According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother (which the Virgin Mary was) or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew; one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish.



Are you saying Jesus did not practice the laws of the Torah?

Yet he was a religious Jew.What type of religion did he had?Was he a Rabbi also?Doesn't a Rabbi need special appointing?How would he and his followers look like and how would they have worship?

Why does it matter?  The degree of His Jewishness....has little to do with his ministry.  Don't look at what He was....look to what He taught.


What he taught seems to comprise more greek, buddhist, hindus philosophy than rabbinical judaism philosophy and OT dubiousness.



I don't agree with you.  What he taught was his 2nd covenant.  Sure anybody can "compare" philosophy and make quick "ah - ha's".

Hindus are polytheistic, and their philosophy does not show similar.

In the peaceful understanding "golden rule" one could compare this with Christ, however, that's a pretty basic teaching that many cultures adapted. 

He taught many things of the Jews, quoted Jewish prophets, recognized the Sabbath...
Dunno where you are going with this.
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« Reply #69 on: January 22, 2013, 11:52:29 PM »

How Jewish is enough for you Cheesy
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« Reply #70 on: January 22, 2013, 11:53:10 PM »

Jesus...prayed in the Hebrew language

I thought that the Jews in that time spoke Aramaic? 

Spoke Aramaic.  Prayed in Hebrew.  Kind of like speaking in Italian and praying in Latin.

Really? I didn't know that the Jews spoke Aramaic. I always assumed that they probably spoke Latin since they were occupied by the Romans and that maybe they prayed in Koine Greek since the Septuagint at the time was written in Greek.
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« Reply #71 on: January 22, 2013, 11:56:39 PM »

Really? I didn't know that the Jews spoke Aramaic. I always assumed that they probably spoke Latin since they were occupied by the Romans and that maybe they prayed in Koine Greek since the Septuagint at the time was written in Greek.

Unfortunately, that's a feature not only of American educational system.

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« Reply #72 on: January 23, 2013, 12:12:46 AM »

Really? I didn't know that the Jews spoke Aramaic. I always assumed that they probably spoke Latin since they were occupied by the Romans and that maybe they prayed in Koine Greek since the Septuagint at the time was written in Greek.

Unfortunately, that's a feature not only of American educational system.



Yes , I grew up with the same impression now that you mention it, though I learned the truth a long time ago.
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« Reply #73 on: January 23, 2013, 12:55:21 AM »

depends on your definition of Jewish

if you mean the humble servants of God in the OT than in His Humanity He is the ultimate Jew and in His Divinity He is their master

if you mean the modern day talmud-reading kosher-eating peace-hating media-running ZIONIST kaballistic "jews" than He is not a Jew.
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« Reply #74 on: January 23, 2013, 04:05:58 AM »

He was very Jewish.

He taught in the temples, he attended Jewish services in the temples - he was circumcised, his mother was Jewish, Joseph was Jewish, the 12 apostles were Jewish, he kept the Sabbath, recognized the Sabbath, and only bumped head with the pharisees on the radicalness they imposed on the Sabbath.

He fulfilled Jewish prophecy.  He even stated "salvation comes from the Jews".




It is said he broke the sabbath, he did not show up on the Jewish holidays and others as such. How do we know he was a Jew?His circumcision and other Jewish rituals as such had nothing to do with his(human) will and has always interfere with the Jewish authorities of that time.His philosophy was beyond the narrow Jewish one and had incorporated the wide philosophy of all religions and a philosophy of liberty.We can't really know exactly what he said, the first gospel was written after at least 30 years after his death by Mark who was an indirect witness the scholars say.And the one who wrote in his Gospel that part was apparently not present at the conversation Jesus had when he said this , because all the apostles were gone when he spoke with the Samaritan woman.


Actually he didn't break the Sabbath, he was showing the radical belief that the Jews made of the Sabbath.  They defined "healing a man" as "work" however, he thought differently.  And why not, after all he was God.

John 5 :16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him,[c] because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”

18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke(ἔλυεν) the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

Quote
It is only listed the holidays that he was not at, thus we can only assume he was at holidays.

John 7 seems to indicate that Jesus did not show up on the feast of Booths from the beginning. (John 7:14) On the last Passover no mentioning of any Lamb consumption.

Quote
His circumcision was proof of his existence within the Jewish community, thus raised Jewish.

Among which Jewish tradition/sect/train of thought? Were there religious Jews separated from the existent Jewish sects at that time? How did they practice and exercise their religion?



Quote
I can't answer the question "what kind of Jew was he".   He was absolutely a Jew though, that brought salvation and established HIS church.

Yet this is the question of the topic.
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« Reply #75 on: January 23, 2013, 08:43:07 PM »

Jesus was a Jew that God loved. Jesus was a Jew that loved God. Jesus was a God that loved Jews.

Behold, the answer!
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« Reply #76 on: January 23, 2013, 08:44:52 PM »

What he taught seems to comprise more greek, buddhist, hindus philosophy than rabbinical judaism philosophy and OT dubiousness.

He sure quotes a lot of "OT dubiousness" for a Greek philosopher or a Hindu guru! As for the Judaisms of his day, they were more than one and not yet "rabbinical". The ancestors of rabbinical Judaism were the Pharisees. Flavius Josephus describes them as a sect/school (hairesis) among others.

I don't see Jesus sustaining executions, murder, genocide, strucking people down and others as such in the NT. You can't know for sure what Jesus actually said, if he existed. You can only know what was attributed to him first at least 30 years after his death by an indirect witness.

What I meant was the philosophy of the Jewish authorities on the time of Jesus..




What do you mean "if" He existed?

Are you an Orthodox Christian?


Yes, but I prefer to keep an eye on skepticism for the sake of realism.

Maybe we should discuss what kind of an Orthodox Christian you are.
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« Reply #77 on: January 23, 2013, 08:46:24 PM »

What he taught seems to comprise more greek, buddhist, hindus philosophy than rabbinical judaism philosophy and OT dubiousness.

He sure quotes a lot of "OT dubiousness" for a Greek philosopher or a Hindu guru! As for the Judaisms of his day, they were more than one and not yet "rabbinical". The ancestors of rabbinical Judaism were the Pharisees. Flavius Josephus describes them as a sect/school (hairesis) among others.

I don't see Jesus sustaining executions, murder, genocide, strucking people down and others as such in the NT. You can't know for sure what Jesus actually said, if he existed. You can only know what was attributed to him first at least 30 years after his death by an indirect witness.

What I meant was the philosophy of the Jewish authorities on the time of Jesus..




What do you mean "if" He existed?

Are you an Orthodox Christian?


Yes, but I prefer to keep an eye on skepticism for the sake of realism.

So, do you believe Christ existed or not?


What kind of questions are this? Do you believe Christ existed?Are you an Orthodox Christian?

Do you believe questions can be answered? At what point would you accept an answer to a question? At what point would you actually answer a question with an answer and not a question?
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« Reply #78 on: January 23, 2013, 08:46:30 PM »

I always assumed that they probably spoke Latin

You'll fit in great at Fisheaters  Grin Grin Grin
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« Reply #79 on: January 23, 2013, 08:47:24 PM »

...as I have gathered that you reside somewhere in Greece...

If we can figure out which banned poster he was before he made this new name, we might be able to figure out where he's from. What was your last username FlickFlack?
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« Reply #80 on: January 24, 2013, 07:46:22 AM »

Another hi-jacked thread it is a shame that the Mods don't do anything about this.

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« Reply #81 on: January 24, 2013, 12:02:06 PM »

Another hi-jacked thread it is a shame that the Mods don't do anything about this.
Have you reported this to the Mods via the "Report to Moderator" function? If you have a problem you think they need to address, they're not going to know about your concern unless you share it with them. That's a much better approach than complaining publicly about Mod inaction as you just did.
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« Reply #82 on: January 24, 2013, 12:10:13 PM »

Jesus was a Jew that God loved. Jesus was a Jew that loved God. Jesus was is a God that loved Jews.

....fixed that for you.  Smiley

According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother (which the Virgin Mary was) or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew; one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish.



Are you saying Jesus did not practice the laws of the Torah?

Yet he was a religious Jew.What type of religion did he had?Was he a Rabbi also?Doesn't a Rabbi need special appointing?How would he and his followers look like and how would they have worship?

Why does it matter?  The degree of His Jewishness....has little to do with his ministry.  Don't look at what He was....look to what He taught.


What he taught seems to comprise more greek, buddhist, hindus philosophy than rabbinical judaism philosophy and OT dubiousness.



You do know that there was no such thing as rabbinical Judaism until after the Temple was destroyed? Where do you get the notion that He taught Buddhist and Hindu philosophy? What are you reading that gives you this notion?
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« Reply #83 on: January 24, 2013, 12:33:37 PM »

Jesus was a Jew that God loved. Jesus was a Jew that loved God. Jesus was is a God that loved Jews.

....fixed that for you.  Smiley

According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother (which the Virgin Mary was) or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew; one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish.



Are you saying Jesus did not practice the laws of the Torah?

Yet he was a religious Jew.What type of religion did he had?Was he a Rabbi also?Doesn't a Rabbi need special appointing?How would he and his followers look like and how would they have worship?

Why does it matter?  The degree of His Jewishness....has little to do with his ministry.  Don't look at what He was....look to what He taught.


What he taught seems to comprise more greek, buddhist, hindus philosophy than rabbinical judaism philosophy and OT dubiousness.



You do know that there was no such thing as rabbinical Judaism until after the Temple was destroyed? Where do you get the notion that He taught Buddhist and Hindu philosophy? What are you reading that gives you this notion?
Some of the teachings of Buddha and Jesus are similar. This has made some people come up with a theory that jesus, at some point in his youth, travelled to India, where he studied hinduism and buddhism. Of course these people often completely ignore all the things which Christ said, that have nothing in common with hindu or buddhist theology and philosophy.
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« Reply #84 on: January 24, 2013, 12:41:25 PM »

Some of the teachings of Buddha and Jesus are similar. This has made some people come up with a theory that jesus, at some point in his youth, travelled to India, where he studied hinduism and buddhism. Of course these people often completely ignore all the things which Christ said, that have nothing in common with hindu or buddhist theology and philosophy.

I'm just surprised that those old worn-out ideas are still kicking around - slipshod scholarship and new-agey wishful thinking, IMHO.
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« Reply #85 on: January 24, 2013, 02:16:40 PM »

Were there religious jews of the Torah/the Covenant outside Jewish sects on the time of Jesus? How did they exercised their religion?
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« Reply #86 on: January 24, 2013, 02:24:22 PM »

Jesus was a Jew that God loved. Jesus was a Jew that loved God. Jesus was is a God that loved Jews.

....fixed that for you.  Smiley

According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother (which the Virgin Mary was) or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew; one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish.



Are you saying Jesus did not practice the laws of the Torah?

Yet he was a religious Jew.What type of religion did he had?Was he a Rabbi also?Doesn't a Rabbi need special appointing?How would he and his followers look like and how would they have worship?

Why does it matter?  The degree of His Jewishness....has little to do with his ministry.  Don't look at what He was....look to what He taught.


What he taught seems to comprise more greek, buddhist, hindus philosophy than rabbinical judaism philosophy and OT dubiousness.



You do know that there was no such thing as rabbinical Judaism until after the Temple was destroyed? Where do you get the notion that He taught Buddhist and Hindu philosophy? What are you reading that gives you this notion?

What would have been the jewish schools of thought that existed on the time of Jesus? Did he have any relationship with any of them?

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« Reply #87 on: January 24, 2013, 02:27:35 PM »

Were there religious jews of the Torah/the Covenant outside Jewish sects on the time of Jesus? How did they exercised their religion?

Do you mean Samaritans?
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« Reply #88 on: January 24, 2013, 02:48:20 PM »

Were there religious jews of the Torah/the Covenant outside Jewish sects on the time of Jesus? How did they exercised their religion?

All of the Jewish "sects" (Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes, Samaritans, Zealots) would have understood themselves as 'Jews of the Covenant' and Torah observers.

The ordinary "lay" Palestinian Jew who was not schooled in any of these sects would have:

- listened occasionally to some famous rabbi that came to town, perhaps hoping to see miracles or have some of their problems solved;

- gone out to the desert to see an extraordinary prophet like John the Baptist and perhaps receive his baptism to break up with sin and start a new life;

- made his pilgrimage to Jerusalem for the Great Feasts to 'appear before the Lord' at the Temple and bring his sacrifices; if not 3 times every year, as the Torah required of all men of Israel, then at least once or maybe several times in his lifetime;

- attended the local synagogue on Sabbath, where the Torah was read out in Hebrew (which he wouldn't have understood much) and then translated/paraphrased by a meturgeman (interpreter) in his native Aramaic;

- roughly adhered to the prescriptions of Mosaic Law and Jewish customs (circumcision, marriage, death & mourning);

- expected the Messiah to free them from Roman occupation and restore the Kingdom of David to its former glory.

The Pharisees would call them 'am ha'aretz (people of the land/country men/peasants), ignorant in the ways of the Torah, and Jesus took pity on their multitudes and viewed them as "sheep without a shepherd".   
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« Reply #89 on: January 24, 2013, 02:50:06 PM »

Were there religious jews of the Torah/the Covenant outside Jewish sects on the time of Jesus? How did they exercised their religion?

All of the Jewish "sects" (Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes, Samaritans, Zealots) would have understood themselves as 'Jews of the Covenant' and Torah observers.

The ordinary "lay" Palestinian Jew who was not schooled in any of these sects would have:

- listened occasionally to some famous rabbi that came to town, perhaps hoping to see miracles or have some of their problems solved;

- gone out to the desert to see an extraordinary prophet like John the Baptist and perhaps receive his baptism to break up with sin and start a new life;

- made his pilgrimage to Jerusalem for the Great Feasts to 'appear before the Lord' at the Temple and bring his sacrifices; if not 3 times every year, as the Torah required of all men of Israel, than at least once or maybe several times in his lifetime;

- attended the local synagogues on Sabbath;

- roughly adhered to the prescriptions of Mosaic Law and Jewish customs (circumcision, marriage, death & mourning).

The Pharisees would call them 'am ha'aretz (people of the land/country men/peasants), ignorant in the ways of the Torah, and Jesus took pity on their multitudes and viewed them as "sheep without a shepherd".   

Samaritans were not treated as Jews by Jews.
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« Reply #90 on: January 24, 2013, 03:01:45 PM »

Samaritans were not treated as Jews by Jews.

True, but they observed the Torah, worshiped on Mount Garizim instead of Jerusalem, expected the Messiah, rejected the later additions to Hebrew Scriptures (Prophets & Writings). They probably understood themselves as the continuation of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, despite their mixed ethnic origins.

That would pretty much have made them a Jewish sect in the eyes of a foreign observer.
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« Reply #91 on: January 24, 2013, 03:53:03 PM »

Were there religious jews of the Torah/the Covenant outside Jewish sects on the time of Jesus? How did they exercised their religion?

All of the Jewish "sects" (Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes, Samaritans, Zealots) would have understood themselves as 'Jews of the Covenant' and Torah observers.

The ordinary "lay" Palestinian Jew who was not schooled in any of these sects would have:

- listened occasionally to some famous rabbi that came to town, perhaps hoping to see miracles or have some of their problems solved;

- gone out to the desert to see an extraordinary prophet like John the Baptist and perhaps receive his baptism to break up with sin and start a new life;

- made his pilgrimage to Jerusalem for the Great Feasts to 'appear before the Lord' at the Temple and bring his sacrifices; if not 3 times every year, as the Torah required of all men of Israel, then at least once or maybe several times in his lifetime;

- attended the local synagogue on Sabbath, where the Torah was read out in Hebrew (which he wouldn't have understood much) and then translated/paraphrased by a meturgeman (interpreter) in his native Aramaic;

- roughly adhered to the prescriptions of Mosaic Law and Jewish customs (circumcision, marriage, death & mourning);

- expected the Messiah to free them from Roman occupation and restore the Kingdom of David to its former glory.

The Pharisees would call them 'am ha'aretz (people of the land/country men/peasants), ignorant in the ways of the Torah, and Jesus took pity on their multitudes and viewed them as "sheep without a shepherd".   

Good informative post.Hmm... The question is was Jesus one of those?
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« Reply #92 on: January 24, 2013, 05:30:22 PM »

Good informative post.Hmm... The question is was Jesus one of those?

He wasn't a Sadducee (though his Mother was related to Elizabeth, "one of the daughters of Aaron" who was married to a priest), nor a Pharisee; might have had some connection with the Essenes (through St. John the Baptist who grew up in the wilderness, but it's pure speculation that he himself might have been part of one of their communities); he wasn't a Samaritan (despite being slandered as such by the Pharisees) and he sure wasn't a Zealot seeking to overthrow the Roman government (he payed his taxes).

He would have appeared to be an ordinary Jew (he often disappeared in the midst of a crowd), although most who met or heard him must have realized there was something extra-ordinary about him.  
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« Reply #93 on: January 24, 2013, 06:16:54 PM »

Good informative post.Hmm... The question is was Jesus one of those?

He wasn't a Sadducee (though his Mother was related to Elizabeth, "one of the daughters of Aaron" who was married to a priest), nor a Pharisee; might have had some connection with the Essenes (through St. John the Baptist who grew up in the wilderness, but it's pure speculation that he himself might have been part of one of their communities); he wasn't a Samaritan (despite being slandered as such by the Pharisees) and he sure wasn't a Zealot seeking to overthrow the Roman government (he payed his taxes).

He would have appeared to be an ordinary Jew (he often disappeared in the midst of a crowd), although most who met or heard him must have realized there was something extra-ordinary about him.  

I didn't knew Zacharias was a Sadducee or that only priests were Sadducees.

So He would have been a bit of all?

Did He have any connection to the house of Hillel(Beit Hillel) , the house of Shammai(Beit Shammai) , or other Jewish trains of thought?

What were the circulating trains of thought among the sects of Judaism in the 1st century and what soteriology did they have?

What would have been the trend among Jewish believes?

When were these Jewish sects born/separated in the form of Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes,Zealots, Samaritans,etc and what common ground did this sects have on the time of Jesus?

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« Reply #94 on: January 24, 2013, 07:03:13 PM »

   
I didn't knew Zacharias was a Sadducee or that only priests were Sadducees.

Sadducees claimed to be the descendants of Tsaddoc, the High Priest from the time of David. They were the conservative aristocratic party to whom most of the clergy of the Temple belonged. They believed in the Torah alone and refused later doctrinal developments such as belief in the next world, resurrection of the dead, heaven and the gehenna, angels etc. This made them oppose the Pharisees. Juridical power on religious issues was entrusted to both parties in the Sanhedrin Court.

Zacharias, the father of St. John the Baptist, wasn't necessarily a Sadducee because he was a priest. 

So He would have been a bit of all?

No - he might have incidentally agreed or disagreed with some. For instance he contradicts the Sadducees, agreeing with the Pharisees, that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the God of the living, not of the dead, that there is resurrection, judgement and retribution, the Kingdom and the gehenna.   

Did He have any connection to the house of Hillel(Beit Hillel) , the house of Shammai(Beit Shammai) , or other Jewish trains of thought?

He would have been closer to Hillel (they were more Gentile-friendly, more lax in application of the Law) on some issues, and closer to Shammai on others (divorce, IIRC). There's no proof that he would have had personal contact with either school.

What were the circulating trains of thought among the sects of Judaism in the 1st century and what soteriology did they have?

Couldn't possibly answer that one in a post - probably each believed you had to be one of them to be "on the right path". The Sadducees didn't believe in an after-life, so salvation wouldn't have been much of an issue for them. God would bless you in this life, if you obeyed the Torah, would not punish you for sins if you atoned for them through the prescribed sacrifices - once you died, you disappeared.

Salvation back then would have been more of a collective issue than an individual one: the earthly restoration of the Kingdom of David under the Messiah. The Pirke Avot (a section of the Talmud) begins with the bold assertion that "All Israel will be saved".
 
What would have been the trend among Jewish believes?

Unfortunately, we do not have any statistics to establish the following of each sect.

When were these Jewish sects born/separated in the form of Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes,Zealots, Samaritans,etc and what common ground did this sects have on the time of Jesus?

The split occurred when the land was conquered by the Greeks (312 BC); the Pharisees were the descendants of the "pious" (chassidim) who zealously upheld Jewish traditions and resisted Hellenistic assimilation. The Sadducees and the priestly aristocracy reached some settlement with the foreign rulers, so as to allow Temple worship to go on. The Essenes are supposed to be the followers of a dissident priest (the Teacher of Righteousness) who retired to the desert to establish a spiritual Temple and considered the guys in Jerusalem to be apostates and impostors. The Samaritans were the result of the Assyrian conquest of the Northern Kingdom (722 BC) - that would have been the earliest schism in chronological order. Zealots were revolutionary guerillas that appeared under Roman rule.

Common ground? Maybe the Torah, which each sect interpreted differently. The Temple in Jerusalem was frequented by most Jews, with the exception of the Essenes and the Samaritans.       

But all this you could have googled up or read about on Wikipedia. 
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« Reply #95 on: January 24, 2013, 08:23:37 PM »

I meant what was the trend of beliefs not "believes" among Jews in general on that time, religiously speaking. What were the general ideas circulating on that time, esspecially from a Messianic perspective? Were they expecting the Messiah to be born on their time? What other Messianic expectations did they had, or Messianic eschatology?
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