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Author Topic: Budgets of Orthodox Jurisdictions  (Read 1591 times) Average Rating: 0
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Justin Kissel
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« on: January 22, 2013, 11:18:56 AM »

Anyone know what the budgets of the various Orthodox jurisdictions are? Also, how large a budget is there typically at the diocese level as compared to the archdiocese level?
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« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2013, 12:30:02 PM »

Anyone know what the budgets of the various Orthodox jurisdictions are? Also, how large a budget is there typically at the diocese level as compared to the archdiocese level?

I thought these were some of the mysteries hidden with Christ in God.
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« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2013, 02:16:00 PM »

Hidden with Christ in God... or hidden behind stacks of papers on the Metropolitan's desk?  angel
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« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2013, 02:45:37 PM »

The church should not have a budget if it actually gave 100% of its tithes to the widows and orphans - EXACTLY - how it was written in the scriptures and practiced by the early Christians.

The early Christians practiced in tombs and later homes.  They did not need a budget.

No $$$$$ watches on those bishops (or photo shopped out ones) http://rt.com/news/patriarch-watch-photo-scandal-326/
I could only assume the ROC have a budget where their top guy has a $40,000 or so watch.

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« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2013, 03:16:01 PM »

The church should not have a budget if it actually gave 100% of its tithes to the widows and orphans - EXACTLY - how it was written in the scriptures and practiced by the early Christians.

The early Christians practiced in tombs and later homes.  They did not need a budget.

No $$$$$ watches on those bishops (or photo shopped out ones) http://rt.com/news/patriarch-watch-photo-scandal-326/
I could only assume the ROC have a budget where their top guy has a $40,000 or so watch.



Even if the Church did exactly as you say, you still need a budget, so that you know and can track where they money is going, and the amounts that are being given to specific people and places, and the ensure that you can fund all the donations, as compared to bouncing a cheque or something to that end.
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« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2013, 08:21:33 PM »

The church should not have a budget if it actually gave 100% of its tithes to the widows and orphans - EXACTLY - how it was written in the scriptures and practiced by the early Christians.

The early Christians practiced in tombs and later homes.  They did not need a budget.

No $$$$$ watches on those bishops (or photo shopped out ones) http://rt.com/news/patriarch-watch-photo-scandal-326/
I could only assume the ROC have a budget where their top guy has a $40,000 or so watch.



Might be good for 1st-4th century Christians; not practical in this day when you need money to operate, unless one wants to set a community out by the countryside and live like the Amish. If the church/parish is in a highly urbanized place, definitely it needs a budget for its expenses.
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« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2013, 09:02:48 PM »

The church should not have a budget if it actually gave 100% of its tithes to the widows and orphans - EXACTLY - how it was written in the scriptures and practiced by the early Christians.

The early Christians practiced in tombs and later homes.  They did not need a budget.


So you were there? Fascinating.
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« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2013, 05:12:17 PM »

The church should not have a budget if it actually gave 100% of its tithes to the widows and orphans - EXACTLY - how it was written in the scriptures and practiced by the early Christians.
Then who was getting the support that St. Paul refused, when he made a big deal of being self-supporting?

The early Christians practiced in tombs and later homes.  They did not need a budget.

You know that they only did this because they were liable to be arrested and imprisoned? As soon as they could, and very early on, they had dedicated and beautiful places for gathering for worship.
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« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2013, 06:24:07 PM »

The church should not have a budget if it actually gave 100% of its tithes to the widows and orphans - EXACTLY - how it was written in the scriptures and practiced by the early Christians.
Then who was getting the support that St. Paul refused, when he made a big deal of being self-supporting?

The early Christians practiced in tombs and later homes.  They did not need a budget.

You know that they only did this because they were liable to be arrested and imprisoned? As soon as they could, and very early on, they had dedicated and beautiful places for gathering for worship.

But even then, most of the churches were supported by government funds anyway.
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« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2013, 06:26:05 PM »

The church should not have a budget if it actually gave 100% of its tithes to the widows and orphans - EXACTLY - how it was written in the scriptures and practiced by the early Christians.
Then who was getting the support that St. Paul refused, when he made a big deal of being self-supporting?

The early Christians practiced in tombs and later homes.  They did not need a budget.

You know that they only did this because they were liable to be arrested and imprisoned? As soon as they could, and very early on, they had dedicated and beautiful places for gathering for worship.

But even then, most of the churches were supported by government funds anyway.

Really?
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« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2013, 06:29:42 PM »

The church should not have a budget if it actually gave 100% of its tithes to the widows and orphans - EXACTLY - how it was written in the scriptures and practiced by the early Christians.
Then who was getting the support that St. Paul refused, when he made a big deal of being self-supporting?

The early Christians practiced in tombs and later homes.  They did not need a budget.

You know that they only did this because they were liable to be arrested and imprisoned? As soon as they could, and very early on, they had dedicated and beautiful places for gathering for worship.

But even then, most of the churches were supported by government funds anyway.

Really?

Talking about the time of the Holy Roman Empire.
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« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2013, 07:06:10 PM »

The church should not have a budget if it actually gave 100% of its tithes to the widows and orphans - EXACTLY - how it was written in the scriptures and practiced by the early Christians.

The early Christians practiced in tombs and later homes.  They did not need a budget.

No $$$$$ watches on those bishops (or photo shopped out ones) http://rt.com/news/patriarch-watch-photo-scandal-326/
I could only assume the ROC have a budget where their top guy has a $40,000 or so watch.



Please, even the 12 before Pentecost had a treasurer (Judas). 
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« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2013, 11:11:41 PM »

The church should not have a budget if it actually gave 100% of its tithes to the widows and orphans - EXACTLY - how it was written in the scriptures and practiced by the early Christians.

The early Christians practiced in tombs and later homes.  They did not need a budget.

No $$$$$ watches on those bishops (or photo shopped out ones) http://rt.com/news/patriarch-watch-photo-scandal-326/
I could only assume the ROC have a budget where their top guy has a $40,000 or so watch.



Might be good for 1st-4th century Christians; not practical in this day when you need money to operate, unless one wants to set a community out by the countryside and live like the Amish. If the church/parish is in a highly urbanized place, definitely it needs a budget for its expenses.

^^^ Very interesting...

The Amish keep the practice because they only give their tithes to widows & orphans too.... I'm not dissing the EO either, as I know they have charity, however, the Amish are a good example of following the scripture on this.

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« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2013, 11:13:54 PM »

The church should not have a budget if it actually gave 100% of its tithes to the widows and orphans - EXACTLY - how it was written in the scriptures and practiced by the early Christians.

The early Christians practiced in tombs and later homes.  They did not need a budget.

No $$$$$ watches on those bishops (or photo shopped out ones) http://rt.com/news/patriarch-watch-photo-scandal-326/
I could only assume the ROC have a budget where their top guy has a $40,000 or so watch.



Please, even the 12 before Pentecost had a treasurer (Judas). 

God bless you.  The Judas (betrayer) was the budget man who helped himself... It proves a very incredible point to my post.  $40k watch...
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« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2013, 11:25:15 PM »

The church should not have a budget if it actually gave 100% of its tithes to the widows and orphans - EXACTLY - how it was written in the scriptures and practiced by the early Christians.
Then who was getting the support that St. Paul refused, when he made a big deal of being self-supporting?

The early Christians practiced in tombs and later homes.  They did not need a budget.

You know that they only did this because they were liable to be arrested and imprisoned? As soon as they could, and very early on, they had dedicated and beautiful places for gathering for worship.

But even then, most of the churches were supported by government funds anyway.

Look, this will start a hailstorm of issues.  But formulates what I have posted in other threads.

Mostly the "beautiful" large churches were built post Constantine (who I believe is not saintly compared to other saints).  After "legalization" much exploitation of money occurred in church funds.

Mostly 1st and 2nd Century Christians did meet in homes/tombs, did contribute tithes to helping widows and orphans.

I have no problem saying that the gold laden churches exploited money.
 

Orthodoxy is very vexing in this.  I've seen dedicated Orthodox hermits who lived in caves who just wanted to be simple and pray for their lives... I've seen simple churches set up (arguably much more beautiful this way).  I've also seen churches that were so wealthy, gold plating on iconostasis and solid gold crosses were used.

I do not believe that all EO churches exploit their money, however, unfortunately, I do believe most of you would not argue that in tradition of the early Christians, the church has exploited some.

There is a wonderful OCA convent in Kemp, TX...  Modest.  I think the nuns there are very kind and nice.  They live a simple life.  Though yes they have a building and a church (which I don't think is wrong btw), I do not think it goes too far.  It's just modest.  Nothing wrong with it.  No gold everything....  They run a large garden to keep costs down.

What confuses me most of all, is that the EO praises the monastics so much.... -> Then live like them more.

Church budget is one of those things that has smacked me around a lot on the EO church... Sorry if I went off topic on this some... Every time I think I'm sealing the deal and will walk away from EO for sure, I go back to the monasteries...  Mostly Humble. Simple. Budgeted.  Not exploitive. 

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« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2013, 11:26:31 PM »

The church should not have a budget if it actually gave 100% of its tithes to the widows and orphans - EXACTLY - how it was written in the scriptures and practiced by the early Christians.

The early Christians practiced in tombs and later homes.  They did not need a budget.


So you were there? Fascinating.

I wish I was Smiley
Unfortunately, I just read what they wrote, so I take their word for it.
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« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2013, 11:52:11 AM »

Mostly the "beautiful" large churches were built post Constantine (who I believe is not saintly compared to other saints).  After "legalization" much exploitation of money occurred in church funds.

Mostly 1st and 2nd Century Christians did meet in homes/tombs, did contribute tithes to helping widows and orphans.


You need to review your history - you have it kind of skewed a bit. The only reason that early Christians met in homes and tombs was because Christianity was illegal and they were subject to arrest, imprisonment, torture and death.  Not because homes and tombs were inherently better or more holy than a building dedicated to the purpose of Christian worship.
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« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2013, 12:30:06 PM »

The church should not have a budget if it actually gave 100% of its tithes to the widows and orphans - EXACTLY - how it was written in the scriptures and practiced by the early Christians.

The early Christians practiced in tombs and later homes.  They did not need a budget.

No $$$$$ watches on those bishops (or photo shopped out ones) http://rt.com/news/patriarch-watch-photo-scandal-326/
I could only assume the ROC have a budget where their top guy has a $40,000 or so watch.



Please, even the 12 before Pentecost had a treasurer (Judas). 

God bless you.  The Judas (betrayer) was the budget man who helped himself... It proves a very incredible point to my post.  $40k watch...
Actually, it doesn't. That would be like saying that a mother baked a pie and told her son to watch over the it. The boy then eats the pie himself and for that reason, the mother made a mistake by baking the pie.
That Judas betrayed Christ, doesn't change the fact that he was trusted with the task of watching over the money.
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« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2013, 12:34:38 PM »

Quote
The church should not have a budget if it actually gave 100% of its tithes to the widows and orphans
You might want to re-read Paul's letters. I would also mention that Paul's journeys were not funded by cash falling out of the sky.
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« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2013, 04:19:29 PM »

The church should not have a budget if it actually gave 100% of its tithes to the widows and orphans - EXACTLY - how it was written in the scriptures and practiced by the early Christians.

The early Christians practiced in tombs and later homes.  They did not need a budget.

No $$$$$ watches on those bishops (or photo shopped out ones) http://rt.com/news/patriarch-watch-photo-scandal-326/
I could only assume the ROC have a budget where their top guy has a $40,000 or so watch.



Please, even the 12 before Pentecost had a treasurer (Judas). 

God bless you.  The Judas (betrayer) was the budget man who helped himself... It proves a very incredible point to my post.  $40k watch...

It does not prove your point.  The Lord was the one who created the position.  Because people abuse an office does not mean that it should be suppressed.  The only thing it proves is that you should not put a thief near money unless the salvation of the world depends on it.   
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« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2013, 07:19:59 PM »

^^^ Very interesting...

The Amish keep the practice because they only give their tithes to widows & orphans too.... I'm not dissing the EO either, as I know they have charity, however, the Amish are a good example of following the scripture on this.

I wouldn't know if they are a good example on this; like what I said, unless you think that parishes/churches should all be in the countryside, you will need a budget to run them. And as most here pointed out, even Jesus had His treasurer. So it seems that money is needed to run things. It is not greed. It is simply the reality we live in.
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« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2013, 12:27:41 AM »

The church should not have a budget if it actually gave 100% of its tithes to the widows and orphans - EXACTLY - how it was written in the scriptures and practiced by the early Christians.

The early Christians practiced in tombs and later homes.  They did not need a budget.

No $$$$$ watches on those bishops (or photo shopped out ones) http://rt.com/news/patriarch-watch-photo-scandal-326/
I could only assume the ROC have a budget where their top guy has a $40,000 or so watch.



Please, even the 12 before Pentecost had a treasurer (Judas). 

God bless you.  The Judas (betrayer) was the budget man who helped himself... It proves a very incredible point to my post.  $40k watch...

It does not prove your point.  The Lord was the one who created the position.  Because people abuse an office does not mean that it should be suppressed.  The only thing it proves is that you should not put a thief near money unless the salvation of the world depends on it.   

which it did in this case? Or did you not desire a deeper meaning here, Father?
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« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2013, 03:26:25 AM »

The church should not have a budget if it actually gave 100% of its tithes to the widows and orphans - EXACTLY - how it was written in the scriptures and practiced by the early Christians.

The early Christians practiced in tombs and later homes.  They did not need a budget.

No $$$$$ watches on those bishops (or photo shopped out ones) http://rt.com/news/patriarch-watch-photo-scandal-326/
I could only assume the ROC have a budget where their top guy has a $40,000 or so watch.



Please, even the 12 before Pentecost had a treasurer (Judas). 

God bless you.  The Judas (betrayer) was the budget man who helped himself... It proves a very incredible point to my post.  $40k watch...

It does not prove your point.  The Lord was the one who created the position.  Because people abuse an office does not mean that it should be suppressed.  The only thing it proves is that you should not put a thief near money unless the salvation of the world depends on it.   

which it did in this case? Or did you not desire a deeper meaning here, Father?

I did desire a deeper meaning, which is why what I said cannot be an affirmation of "the church should not need a budget."  He that is slothful in his work is brother to him that is a great waster.  A $40k watch is not good, but this does not negate the office that is being neglected (the one that is to be a check on the great waster). 

 
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« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2013, 10:52:58 AM »

ISTM that one of the purposes of a church budget is to make sure that we are being good stewards of the tithes of the Faithful.
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« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2013, 04:02:10 PM »

ISTM that one of the purposes of a church budget is to make sure that we are being good stewards of the tithes of the Faithful.

I agree and would add that good bookkeeping and audits would complete the picture.
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« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2013, 09:36:19 PM »

ISTM that one of the purposes of a church budget is to make sure that we are being good stewards of the tithes of the Faithful.

Correct.  The parable of the talents has proper stewardship, accounting and accountability in it. 
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« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2013, 09:39:53 PM »

ISTM that one of the purposes of a church budget is to make sure that we are being good stewards of the tithes of the Faithful.

I agree and would add that good bookkeeping and audits would complete the picture.

agreed.  Too often in "churchy" settings people get offended that they are being "checked."  This is terrible.  I think it is much worse in smaller parishes than in bigger parishes, but can happen anywhere.  The point is that we have to stop it from happening and for people to be accountable for what they have done.  Anyone not willing to do this and acting offended and threatening to quit, even small parishes cannot be "held hostage" by such nonsense.   
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« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2013, 04:24:20 AM »

The church should not have a budget if it actually gave 100% of its tithes to the widows and orphans - EXACTLY - how it was written in the scriptures and practiced by the early Christians.

The early Christians practiced in tombs and later homes.  They did not need a budget.


So you were there? Fascinating.

I wish I was Smiley
Unfortunately, I just read what they wrote, so I take their word for it.
evidently not.

I don't think the Apostles would waste a lot of verses going over the accounting books of the early Church.  We do know, however, that substantial wealth was placed in the hands of the Church.  For one thing, the Church had to buy the property for the catacombs, and it didn't come cheap.
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« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2013, 04:25:51 AM »

Quote
The church should not have a budget if it actually gave 100% of its tithes to the widows and orphans
You might want to re-read Paul's letters. I would also mention that Paul's journeys were not funded by cash falling out of the sky.
Didn't the Roman Emperor pay for it?
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« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2013, 05:51:07 PM »

Quote
The church should not have a budget if it actually gave 100% of its tithes to the widows and orphans
You might want to re-read Paul's letters. I would also mention that Paul's journeys were not funded by cash falling out of the sky.
Didn't the Roman Emperor pay for it?

I heard on the Naked Archaeologist that there is a theory that the Apostle Paul was actually a spy of the Roman Empire to fake his conversion in order to pacify the christian religion. Very credible source, because the Patriarch of Jerusalem let him inside to see many relics of saints so he is obviously trusted! despite the archaeologist being a jew ! ;P
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« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2013, 09:18:22 AM »

Didn't Christ rebuke Judas when Judas advocated that the perfume used to anoint Christ's feet be sold and the money given to the poor?  Money can be used to buy items that we use as tools for adoration of God.  Spending money to beautify churches is not ill-spent so long as we are not neglecting the poor while doing so.
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Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
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Inserting personal quote here.


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« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2013, 02:17:23 PM »

Quote
the Naked Archaeologist
I used to watch his show, but slowly and surely the programming became overly critical of Christianity. To the point, IMHO of not being unbiased, but creating an anti-christian narrative and then finding ways to "prove" it.

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Apostle Paul was actually a spy of the Roman Empire to fake his conversion in order to pacify the christian religion.
See, I've heard that he was a delator then converted afterwards.

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Very credible source, because the Patriarch of Jerusalem let him inside to see many relics of saints so he is obviously trusted! despite the archaeologist being a jew
Well, lets be honest here for a second....Simcha Jacobovici is not a trained archaeologist IIRC. He has a philosophy degree and a degree in PolySci, and was a journalist.

PP
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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
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« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2013, 04:11:25 PM »

God bless you.  The Judas (betrayer) was the budget man who helped himself... It proves a very incredible point to my post.  $40k watch...

You're still hung up on that $40,000 watch?  Are you just jealous because no one has given you such a watch?  Covet much?  Besides, I doubt that was in the budget for the MP; it was most likely a gift to His Beatitude.  Many Orthodox hierarchs are given gifts such as these by the faithful.  Whether they should keep them or not is not for you nor me to decide.
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I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
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