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Author Topic: Our Lady of Palestine  (Read 1819 times) Average Rating: 0
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rakovsky
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« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2013, 02:02:47 PM »

She was an Israelite but she was NOT an Israeli. She was from Falasteen (Palestine). A lot of people often forget or confuse that.

Where is that written in the Bible?  Grin
It doesn't explicitly call her an "Israelite" either, but as with her being from Palestine, this can be deduced.
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« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2013, 02:09:03 PM »



Most Holy Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary, Save Us!

That's beautiful! Thank you for sharing this!

Quick reminder

That wall was built to stop or at least impeded Islamist suicide bombers who were regularly blowing up Public Buses and markets and cafes killing Men Women and Children indiscriminately.





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« Reply #47 on: January 10, 2013, 02:32:33 PM »



Most Holy Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary, Save Us!

That's beautiful! Thank you for sharing this!

Quick reminder

That wall was built to stop or at least impeded Islamist suicide bombers who were regularly blowing up Public Buses and markets and cafes killing Men Women and Children indiscriminately.







How has this wall worked out for the Israelis? Where is the wall that stops Israeli bombs? The wall's creation was another attempt by the Zionists to humiliate the Palestinians. Its another sick "flexing of muscles" by the Zionist regime. The wall, the checkpoints, the IDF presence, the expansion of Israeli settlements in Palestinian territory, the horrible treatment of Gaza, and the overall negative presence of the Zionist regime, its all connected to their will to humiliate and ultimately kick-away the native Palestinians.     
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« Reply #48 on: January 10, 2013, 02:57:33 PM »


It doesn't explicitly call her an "Israelite" either, but as with her being from Palestine, this can be deduced.

The word Palestine does not occur in the entire NT, but the word Israel does.  Grin
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« Reply #49 on: January 10, 2013, 03:27:09 PM »

Quick reminder
Let's please stay on track. I got warned before for going too much into modern politics once on the other sections.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 03:39:59 PM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #50 on: January 10, 2013, 03:31:11 PM »


It doesn't explicitly call her an "Israelite" either, but as with her being from Palestine, this can be deduced.

The word Palestine does not occur in the entire NT, but the word Israel does.  Grin

In case you don't already know there are two completely different definitions of Israel, from a Christian standpoint.

The first definition of IsraEl: The Biblical IsraEl, the chosen correct-worshiping, correct-believing Ancient Jewish people of the Old Testament. Which continued until the coming of the Massiah, the Christ. Now IsraEl is Christ's Church, the correct-believing/worshiping Holy Orthodox Church. So, IsraEl continues as the Church, not as the Jewish people.

The second definition of Israel: The present-day Jewish Zionist nation-state which is definitely not the Biblical Israel.

BTW, the name Philistia, the land of the Philistines is mentioned in the Bible several times. It is unsure of whether or not that is a cognitive of the name Palestine.

I hope that wasn't as strongly political as my last post to this thread...Moderators, please change what needs to be if it is too political.  police
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Marc1152
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« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2013, 03:34:14 PM »



Most Holy Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary, Save Us!

That's beautiful! Thank you for sharing this!

Quick reminder

That wall was built to stop or at least impeded Islamist suicide bombers who were regularly blowing up Public Buses and markets and cafes killing Men Women and Children indiscriminately.







How has this wall worked out for the Israelis? Where is the wall that stops Israeli bombs? The wall's creation was another attempt by the Zionists to humiliate the Palestinians. Its another sick "flexing of muscles" by the Zionist regime. The wall, the checkpoints, the IDF presence, the expansion of Israeli settlements in Palestinian territory, the horrible treatment of Gaza, and the overall negative presence of the Zionist regime, its all connected to their will to humiliate and ultimately kick-away the native Palestinians.     

Blah blah blah..It was a successful attempt to stop random bombing aimed at civilians. It has worked well. There were no such incidents for 9 years until just a couple of months ago when a suicide bomber got through and committed several murders.
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« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2013, 03:45:21 PM »

Blah blah blah..It was a successful attempt
I can show that the wall wasn't what stopped it, but I'm not going to go into politics here. May we please return to the OP?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 03:48:11 PM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2013, 04:01:51 PM »

Blah blah blah..It was a successful attempt
I can show that the wall wasn't what stopped it, but I'm not going to go into politics here. May we please return to the OP?

Indeed.
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« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2013, 08:39:51 PM »

Blah blah blah..It was a successful attempt
I can show that the wall wasn't what stopped it, but I'm not going to go into politics here. May we please return to the OP?

As you know, there is an active thread on the Middle East situation in the politics section. Perhaps you would consider posting the info. there.
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« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2013, 11:17:41 PM »

Blah blah blah..It was a successful attempt
I can show that the wall wasn't what stopped it, but I'm not going to go into politics here. May we please return to the OP?
Perhaps you would consider posting the info. there.
OK, I did. End of discussion.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 11:17:58 PM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #56 on: January 22, 2013, 05:33:28 AM »

I was reading the Evening Prayers in the 1950's OCA prayerbook, and came across where it mentions "our purest Sovereign-Lady Theotokos" (Prechistaya Vladychitsa nasha Bogoroditsa). I will point out that it does not refer to her merely as "Our Lady", but as "Our purest Lady Theotokos", having two more words.

Yet it was remarkable to me that it did use a word that can be vaguely approximated in meaning with the aristocratic Russian word "Dama" (in English: Lady). The word that it uses is "Vladychitsa". This is the female form of the word "Vladyka", which you may recognize as what we call our Bishops (in English: "Master"). The OCA book writes "Vladychitsa" in English as "Sovereign-Lady", which is more than just an aristocratic lady ("Dama").

As for the term Vladychitsa, when it is used in isolation, as in "Our Lady", it appears to generally have a Catholic connotation in Russian, and one comes across this usage rarely.

I did find a speech where Catherine the Great, in concluding peace with the Turks in 1793, uses it this way: "Our Vladychitsa in the vengeance of her works celebrates brightly!"

Catherine the Great was Orthodox, but it is worth pointing out that she had come from Germany and converted to Orthodoxy. I think she may have had inexactness in Russian, because I read that she wrote the common word "еще" as "ис че", which by the way is how it sounds. And who is going to correct the Empress on grammar points?  Smiley

One website uses the title "nasha Vladychitsa" in amongst many other titles, instead of using it as the main title in isolation (ie. "...our lady and..." instead of "Our Lady of"). But this website doesn't seem to be a very "formal" Orthodox one, to say the least. Its right-hand side panel takes the idea of literary "bullet-points" to a whole new level. The quote is: "She is our Lady, the most Holy, Humble, Most merciful, our Vladychitsa and Patroness of the Christian people, and not the self-called Masonic puppets." (http://3rm.info/28290-ocherednaya-porciya-britanskoy-politiki-kanada-vnesla-iran-v-spisok-storonnikov-terrorizma.html)

The other two websites I found have Vladychitsa as a Catholic term:
Divine Femininity (http://amarillis.at.ua/index/0-25)
The Fatima Prophecy (http://www.sirius-ru.net/liki/mmaria_prorochestva_fatima.htm)
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 05:34:37 AM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #57 on: January 22, 2013, 06:07:16 AM »

"Vladychitsa" means more "Ruler" or "Sovereign".
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« Reply #58 on: January 22, 2013, 06:13:42 AM »

"Vladychitsa" means more "Ruler" or "Sovereign".

It also means Mistress, in its proper sense, not the debased meaning it has today. The Greek equivalent is Despoina.
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« Reply #59 on: January 22, 2013, 06:42:34 AM »

She was born in the Roman province of Palestine.

Most people tend to forget that.
When?  I ask because Palestine didn't exist for a very long time and during the time of Jesus, I believe the Palestinians lived near Greece.  In fact, I think they were given their name by an Emperor.  Not what people think about today.
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« Reply #60 on: January 22, 2013, 06:44:36 AM »

She was born in the Roman province of Palestine.

Most people tend to forget that.
No.  The Roman province dates from over a century after her birth. And why would it matter?

The region was known as Palestine almost half a millenium before her birth.

She was born in the Roman client Kingdom of Herod the King (per the Roman Senate) of the Jews.

So, she was Roman.
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« Reply #61 on: January 22, 2013, 06:49:47 AM »


It doesn't explicitly call her an "Israelite" either, but as with her being from Palestine, this can be deduced.

The word Palestine does not occur in the entire NT, but the word Israel does.  Grin

Because what people today call Palestine didn't exist.  They will tell you it did, but they are wrong.  When I moved a few months back, I packed up all of my books and can't find my college history book explaining all of this.  I wish I could find it, but I am sure it's one I put away in storage.
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« Reply #62 on: January 22, 2013, 07:02:21 AM »

At the risk of wheedling a little, I would like to say, is there something bad about referring to the Theotokos as Our Lady? After all, in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, do we not say many times, "Calling to mind our most pure Lady..."? (I'm paraphrasing.) I can understand if the Orthodox prefer a term like Theotokos, but with due respect, Our Lady is not a bad name to say. That's all.

I have a problem with "of".

It's an article in English. Only two letters. What's the big deal?  Huh

. . .

 Tongue And people wonder why I got tired.

Some tell me someone immediately pointed out that of is not an article?!?!?

We have to focus on what is important here.
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« Reply #63 on: January 22, 2013, 07:06:50 AM »

It's an article in English. Only two letters. What's the big deal?  Huh

It states that the place of origin of Theotokos was Guadelupe / Częstochowa / whatever while it's not true.

Not true. It refers to the fact that people had a vision of her there.

Do you not even know what you're talking about, or is this just a fault of your English skills?

I had to laugh. I've never heard anyone else think that's what it means in context.

Good Lord.  Angry

Now it gets hot!

Calling out grammar skills! One a native speaker, the other not. Please some one say genitive, so we can argue how the genitive functions in a variety of ways and is compounded on which language you are using.

Possession?
Origin?
Composition?

Oh, I can't wait.
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« Reply #64 on: January 22, 2013, 07:12:39 AM »

It's an article in English. Only two letters. What's the big deal?  Huh

It states that the place of origin of Theotokos was Guadelupe / Częstochowa / whatever while it's not true.

Not true. It refers to the fact that people had a vision of her there.

Do you not even know what you're talking about, or is this just a fault of your English skills?

I had to laugh. I've never heard anyone else think that's what it means in context.

Good Lord.  Angry

There is a reccuring joke about Polish Catholics who believe Theotokos was a Pole born in Częstochowa. The problem is the joke is based on reality.

Well, excuse me, but they're wrong. Someone get them a dictionary. I'm not going to sit here and be told I can't call the Virgin Mary a very old and respectable title just because some people can't bring themselves to learn the meaning of a two-letter word.

I am so tired of this.

They don't need a dictionary because they read it right.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/of

Quote
(used to indicate distance or direction from, separation, deprivation, etc.): within a mile of the church; south of Omaha; to be robbed of one's money.
2.
(used to indicate derivation, origin, or source)
: a man of good family; the plays of Shakespeare; a piece of cake.
3.
(used to indicate cause, motive, occasion, or reason): to die of hunger.
4.
(used to indicate material, component parts, substance, or contents): a dress of silk; an apartment of three rooms; a book of poems; a package of cheese.
5.
(used to indicate apposition or identity): Is that idiot of a salesman calling again?

BTW in Polish it's not "a two-letter word" but it's done by an andjective.

Well, if you don't care about the language barrier, and you are tripping over something that happens when you bring it into your language - because the problem does not exist in English - then it's getting ridiculous trying to explain it to you. I'm done.

Ummmm . . .

This is where the dictionary is correct. The phrasing is a bit unfortunate.

Is The Virgin of Guadalupe different than the The Virgin of Palestine? What sorta sort genitive is the of functioning as in both?

Oh well, if I can put up with people saying the are going to Kroger('?)s or hearing them tell me they are going to use the ATM machine, Michal can put up with this poor phrasing.
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« Reply #65 on: January 22, 2013, 07:17:02 AM »



Most Holy Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary, Save Us!

That's beautiful! Thank you for sharing this!

Quick reminder

That wall was built to stop or at least impeded Islamist suicide bombers who were regularly blowing up Public Buses and markets and cafes killing Men Women and Children indiscriminately.







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« Reply #66 on: January 22, 2013, 07:55:25 AM »


It doesn't explicitly call her an "Israelite" either, but as with her being from Palestine, this can be deduced.

Because what people today call Palestine didn't exist.  They will tell you it did, but they are wrong.  When I moved a few months back, I packed up all of my books and can't find my college history book explaining all of this.
I would be interested in your history book, although like many books, it could be biased. For example, it is common that colleges have a few academic classes that teach that Christianity's main ideas are incorrect.

In any case, Herodotus wrote about Palestine in the 5th century BC:
Quote
The Phoenicians and the Syrians of Palestine themselves admit that they learned the practice from Egypt... No other nations use circumcision, and all these are without doubt following the Egyptian lead.
It's worth pointing out that Herodotus did mention the Jews here. Does that mean the Jews did not exist then? No. In the Old Testament it says that Abraham's father was an Aramaen (meaning Syrian). In fact, the Old Testament Hebrew language that we see up to today is written in Aramaic script. Thus it makes sense that the Jews were one of the sub-groups of what Herodotus would consider to be the Syrians living in Palestine. After all, he writes that no other nations practiced circumcision- and the ancient Israelites certainly did.

Regards.
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« Reply #67 on: January 22, 2013, 10:33:58 PM »

She was born in the Roman province of Palestine.

Most people tend to forget that.
When?  I ask because Palestine didn't exist for a very long time and during the time of Jesus, I believe the Palestinians lived near Greece.  In fact, I think they were given their name by an Emperor.  Not what people think about today.

They considered themselves as Syrians living in the southern part of Syria until told otherwise. Arifat wasnt even that much, he was born in Egypt..go figure
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