Author Topic: Only Begotten Son and the Roman Liturgy  (Read 715 times)

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Offline choy

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Only Begotten Son and the Roman Liturgy
« on: February 27, 2013, 01:34:16 AM »
Why isn't the hymn "Only Begotten Son" found in the Roman Liturgy given it is a Chalcedonian Church?

Offline Romaios

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Re: Only Begotten Son and the Roman Liturgy
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2013, 02:20:52 AM »
Why isn't the hymn "Only Begotten Son" found in the Roman Liturgy given it is a Chalcedonian Church?

We attribute it to the Emperor Justinian; the Coptic Church attributes it to Pat. Severus of Antioch IIRC.

The theopaschite formula ('one of the Trinity suffered for us') was initially rejected by Pope Hormisdas as crypto-monophysite, when some Scythian monks first brought it to Rome in 521. Pope John II accepted it in 533 because of the Edicts of Emperor Justinian. Despite this, it never did permeate the rather conservative Roman liturgy. But the Latin dogmatic manuals do talk of a communicatio idiomatum (communication of properties between the two natures of Christ).

Theopaschism wasn't exactly Chalcedonian. It's rather a later corrective to Chalcedonian Christology.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 02:35:47 AM by Romaios »

Offline J Michael

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Re: Only Begotten Son and the Roman Liturgy
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2013, 12:15:57 PM »
All that ^, and because the Roman Catholic Church does not use the Divine Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil the Great.

The Roman Catholic Mass does include the Nicene Creed as a "theological statement of faith in the dogma of the Incarnation" which is what "Only Begotten Son" is, I believe. 

Is the hymn used in the Orthodox Western Rite liturgies?  If not, why not?
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline choy

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Re: Only Begotten Son and the Roman Liturgy
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2013, 01:20:07 PM »
All that ^, and because the Roman Catholic Church does not use the Divine Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil the Great.

Both Divine Liturgies preceded the hymn.  It was a later insertion (as is a lot of elements of the Divine Liturgy as we have it today).  So if the emperor inserted it into the Eastern Liturgy, why not the Western?

The Roman Catholic Mass does include the Nicene Creed as a "theological statement of faith in the dogma of the Incarnation" which is what "Only Begotten Son" is, I believe. 

Well, we have the Creed to ;)

Is the hymn used in the Orthodox Western Rite liturgies?  If not, why not?

Good question.

Offline J Michael

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Re: Only Begotten Son and the Roman Liturgy
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2013, 01:41:49 PM »
All that ^, and because the Roman Catholic Church does not use the Divine Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil the Great.

Both Divine Liturgies preceded the hymn.  It was a later insertion (as is a lot of elements of the Divine Liturgy as we have it today).  So if the emperor inserted it into the Eastern Liturgy, why not the Western?

Dunno.  Why does it matter?  Was there a totally distinct Western liturgy at the time of its insertion into the DL?

The Roman Catholic Mass does include the Nicene Creed as a "theological statement of faith in the dogma of the Incarnation" which is what "Only Begotten Son" is, I believe. 

Well, we have the Creed to ;)


 :angel: :angel:


Is the hymn used in the Orthodox Western Rite liturgies?  If not, why not?

Good question.

Any answers?
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Only Begotten Son and the Roman Liturgy
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2013, 04:04:43 PM »
All that ^, and because the Roman Catholic Church does not use the Divine Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil the Great.

Both Divine Liturgies preceded the hymn.  It was a later insertion (as is a lot of elements of the Divine Liturgy as we have it today).  So if the emperor inserted it into the Eastern Liturgy, why not the Western?

The Roman Catholic Mass does include the Nicene Creed as a "theological statement of faith in the dogma of the Incarnation" which is what "Only Begotten Son" is, I believe. 

Well, we have the Creed to ;)

Is the hymn used in the Orthodox Western Rite liturgies?  If not, why not?

Good question.

 ??? Eez outrage! Inserted into Holy Text! Sounds like like western innovation or worse!!  ;)

Offline J Michael

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Re: Only Begotten Son and the Roman Liturgy
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2013, 04:13:35 PM »
All that ^, and because the Roman Catholic Church does not use the Divine Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil the Great.

Both Divine Liturgies preceded the hymn.  It was a later insertion (as is a lot of elements of the Divine Liturgy as we have it today).  So if the emperor inserted it into the Eastern Liturgy, why not the Western?

The Roman Catholic Mass does include the Nicene Creed as a "theological statement of faith in the dogma of the Incarnation" which is what "Only Begotten Son" is, I believe. 

Well, we have the Creed to ;)

Is the hymn used in the Orthodox Western Rite liturgies?  If not, why not?

Good question.

 ??? Eez outrage! Inserted into Holy Text! Sounds like like western innovation or worse!!  ;)
??? Eh?  ??? Something worse there is than western innovation??  Impossible!!!!
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Romaios

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Re: Only Begotten Son and the Roman Liturgy
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2013, 04:15:39 PM »
??? Eez outrage! Inserted into Holy Text! Sounds like like western innovation or worse!!  ;)

They would have sung it outdoors, during the procession, to put the heretics to shame...

Actually, the akoimetoi were outraged - they seem to have lost sleep over it.

Offline J Michael

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Re: Only Begotten Son and the Roman Liturgy
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2013, 04:20:01 PM »
??? Eez outrage! Inserted into Holy Text! Sounds like like western innovation or worse!!  ;)

They would have sung it outdoors, during the procession, to put the heretics to shame...

Actually, the akoimetoi were outraged - they seem to have lost sleep over it.

There's very little in life that someone doesn't get upset about, even to the point of outrage.  ;)
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Romaios

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Re: Only Begotten Son and the Roman Liturgy
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2013, 04:31:14 PM »
??? Eez outrage! Inserted into Holy Text! Sounds like like western innovation or worse!!  ;)

They would have sung it outdoors, during the procession, to put the heretics to shame...

Actually, the akoimetoi were outraged - they seem to have lost sleep over it.

There's very little in life that someone doesn't get upset about, even to the point of outrage.  ;)

The funny thing about it all is that initially the one upset was the Pope (Hormisdas). The akoimetoi were his allies in the East in rejecting theopaschism. Then came another Pope (John II) who was more docile towards the new Imperial Edicts on this issue and excommunicated the poor sleepless monks over it... Talk about papal infallibility and consistent magisterium back in the day!  ::)       
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 04:34:56 PM by Romaios »

Offline J Michael

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Re: Only Begotten Son and the Roman Liturgy
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2013, 04:42:42 PM »
??? Eez outrage! Inserted into Holy Text! Sounds like like western innovation or worse!!  ;)

They would have sung it outdoors, during the procession, to put the heretics to shame...

Actually, the akoimetoi were outraged - they seem to have lost sleep over it.

There's very little in life that someone doesn't get upset about, even to the point of outrage.  ;)

The funny thing about it all is that initially the one upset was the Pope (Hormisdas). The akoimetoi were his allies in the East in rejecting theopaschism. Then came another Pope (John II) who was more docile towards the new Imperial Edicts on this issue and excommunicated the poor sleepless monks over it... Talk about papal infallibility and consistent magisterium back in the day!  ::)       

Oh well......

And that was wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy before The Schism of +-1054.

Oh well.....

(And maybe you're ascribing some "papal infallibility" where none was meant to be.)
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Romaios

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Re: Only Begotten Son and the Roman Liturgy
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2013, 04:48:18 PM »
(And maybe you're ascribing some "papal infallibility" where none was meant to be.)

Any talk of papal infallibility before Vatican I is an anachronism IMO.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 04:48:31 PM by Romaios »

Offline J Michael

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Re: Only Begotten Son and the Roman Liturgy
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2013, 04:53:19 PM »
(And maybe you're ascribing some "papal infallibility" where none was meant to be.)

Any talk of papal infallibility before Vatican I is an anachronism IMO.

I think that's kinda what I meant  ;).
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline choy

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Re: Only Begotten Son and the Roman Liturgy
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2013, 06:08:21 PM »
(And maybe you're ascribing some "papal infallibility" where none was meant to be.)

Any talk of papal infallibility before Vatican I is an anachronism IMO.

What?  You mean St. Peter didn't infallibly and supremely judged the First Council of Jerusalem and St. James spoke only in his behalf?

 ::)

Offline biro

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Re: Only Begotten Son and the Roman Liturgy
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2013, 06:12:55 PM »
And you wonder why they don't want to sing your songs.
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Offline choy

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Re: Only Begotten Son and the Roman Liturgy
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2013, 06:51:17 PM »
And you wonder why they don't want to sing your songs.

I'm asking because the hymn is attribute to the Emperor St. Justinian.  He would have strong-armed the inclusion of the hymn.  In the first millennium, the Emperor usually gets more universal ordinary jurisdiction than the Pope ;)

Offline biro

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Re: Only Begotten Son and the Roman Liturgy
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2013, 08:07:00 PM »
I think you have used the phrase 'universal ordinary jurisdiction' more in the last two weeks than anyone ever.
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

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And if I seem a little strange, well, that's because I am