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Author Topic: Vatican Preparing a Manual to help Priests Celebrate Mass  (Read 1816 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: January 21, 2013, 10:49:16 AM »

The Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments is preparing a booklet to help priests celebrate the Mass properly and the faithful to participate better, according to the prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments.

Cardinal Antonio Cañizares confirmed this Tuesday at an address at the Spanish Embassy to the Holy See on "Catholic Liturgy since Vatican II: Continuity and Evolution."
....
The cardinal criticized the effort to make the Mass "entertaining" with certain songs -- instead of focusing on the mystery -- in an attempt to overcome "boredom" by transforming the Mass into a show.
....
He added that the Council did not speak of the priest celebrating Mass facing the people, that it stressed the importance of Christ on the altar, reflected in Benedict XVI's celebration of the Mass in the Sistine Chapel facing the altar. This does not exclude the priest facing the people, in particular during the reading of the word of God. He stressed the need of the notion of mystery, and particulars such as the altar facing East and the fact that the sacrificial sense of the Eucharist must not be lost.
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« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2013, 11:21:57 AM »

The Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments is preparing a booklet to help priests celebrate the Mass properly and the faithful to participate better, according to the prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments.

Cardinal Antonio Cañizares confirmed this Tuesday at an address at the Spanish Embassy to the Holy See on "Catholic Liturgy since Vatican II: Continuity and Evolution."
....
The cardinal criticized the effort to make the Mass "entertaining" with certain songs -- instead of focusing on the mystery -- in an attempt to overcome "boredom" by transforming the Mass into a show.
....
He added that the Council did not speak of the priest celebrating Mass facing the people, that it stressed the importance of Christ on the altar, reflected in Benedict XVI's celebration of the Mass in the Sistine Chapel facing the altar. This does not exclude the priest facing the people, in particular during the reading of the word of God. He stressed the need of the notion of mystery, and particulars such as the altar facing East and the fact that the sacrificial sense of the Eucharist must not be lost.

This can only be a good thing, I think.  The pity is that there is need for it.
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« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2013, 11:32:40 AM »

I doubt it will make any difference. Any priest who really wants to, can easily find out the correct way to say Mass. If nothing else, they could watch it on EWTN.
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« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2013, 11:40:28 AM »

I doubt it will make any difference. Any priest who really wants to, can easily find out the correct way to say Mass. If nothing else, they could watch it on EWTN.

Good point!  Maybe the thinking/hope/wish/fantasy (take your pick Wink) is that if the booklet is distributed to all priests, more will realize that there *is*, actually, a correct way and will then be motivated to celebrate the Mass that way.  Or, is that just wishful thinking on my part  Cheesy?

I'm pleased to say that the priests where we attend Mass seem to celebrate it correctly, relatively reverently (depending on the priest), but the over-all effect is that it is, unfortunately, rather bland, especially compared to the DL of St. John Chrysostom celebrated in the Byzantine Catholic churches and in Orthodoxy.  Part of the "blandness" comes, I'm afraid, from the architecture (exterior and interior) and decoration (or lack of it) of the church itself.  It's like a big, pointed roof barn.  Sigh.
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« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2013, 11:57:11 AM »

Booklet?  Six words are all that is needed (pinched from Fr. Z):

Say the black.  Do the red.
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« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2013, 11:58:04 AM »

Booklet?  Six words are all that is needed (pinched from Fr. Z):

Say the black.  Do the red.

 laugh laugh  Nice!
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« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2013, 12:34:37 PM »

Is there nore already something for this, called the GIRM?
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« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2013, 01:03:11 PM »

Is there nore already something for this, called the GIRM?

That might be too complicated and detailed for some  Roll Eyes.  I prefer Fr. Z's suggestion.  Wink
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« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2013, 01:24:57 PM »

So they don't learn than in 4 years of seminary?
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« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2013, 01:37:28 PM »

So they don't learn than in 4 years of seminary?

Guess it depends on the seminary  Shocked Grin.
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« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2013, 01:39:38 PM »

So they don't learn than in 4 years of seminary?

Guess it depends on the seminary  Shocked Grin.

Then what do they learn there?
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« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2013, 01:43:19 PM »

So they don't learn than in 4 years of seminary?

Guess it depends on the seminary  Shocked Grin.

Then what do they learn there?

I wouldn't know.  Probably best to a) ask a seminarian, or b) ask a priest, or c) peruse the prospectus of various seminaries if available, or d) any combination of a, b, & c.
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« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2013, 02:40:35 PM »

This is absurd. A manual to help priests celebrate mass. Monty Python would envy the idea.
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« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2013, 02:54:39 PM »

This is absurd. A manual to help priests celebrate mass. Monty Python would envy the idea.

You mean like this: http://www.svspress.com/products/Liturgikon%3A-Book-of-Divine-Services-for-the-Priest-%26-Deacon.html ?

What would dear old Monty make of that, I wonder?
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« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2013, 03:01:05 PM »

This is absurd. A manual to help priests celebrate mass. Monty Python would envy the idea.

You mean like this: http://www.svspress.com/products/Liturgikon%3A-Book-of-Divine-Services-for-the-Priest-%26-Deacon.html ?

What would dear old Monty make of that, I wonder?

I didn't write that as a criticism. You probably think yourself too that the situation IS tragicomic. The priests should know their job without extra manuals. The plain old service books should be enough.
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« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2013, 03:34:31 PM »

This is absurd. A manual to help priests celebrate mass. Monty Python would envy the idea.

You mean like this: http://www.svspress.com/products/Liturgikon%3A-Book-of-Divine-Services-for-the-Priest-%26-Deacon.html ?

What would dear old Monty make of that, I wonder?

I didn't write that as a criticism. You probably think yourself too that the situation IS tragicomic. The priests should know their job without extra manuals. The plain old service books should be enough.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, you'd think so, wouldn't you?  I guess until we actually see the booklet and its contents we won't know just how directive and how detailed it is.  The Roman Missal should be enough, along with any instructions on how to use it. 

Unfortunately, there are too many priests and bishops who think they can "Do It My Way", as it were.  Unless and until these guys are reined in or booted out or retire or die and are replaced by orthodox bishops and priests, the problem will persist.  It may, anyway.
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« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2013, 04:00:04 PM »

This is absurd. A manual to help priests celebrate mass. Monty Python would envy the idea.

You mean like this: http://www.svspress.com/products/Liturgikon%3A-Book-of-Divine-Services-for-the-Priest-%26-Deacon.html ?

What would dear old Monty make of that, I wonder?
I'm not really sure that an Orthodox Book of Needs is the same as this manual. Why not wait for its release first instead of offering opinions based on guesses?
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« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2013, 04:11:36 PM »

Does this mean they will finally have a real liturgy  Grin
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« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2013, 04:14:15 PM »

This is absurd. A manual to help priests celebrate mass. Monty Python would envy the idea.

You mean like this: http://www.svspress.com/products/Liturgikon%3A-Book-of-Divine-Services-for-the-Priest-%26-Deacon.html ?

What would dear old Monty make of that, I wonder?
I'm not really sure that an Orthodox Book of Needs is the same as this manual. Why not wait for its release first instead of offering opinions based on guesses?

No, but it *is* a manual of sorts.  Not unlike the Roman Missal in terms of what it's used for.  I think.

What...and take all the fun out of it?? Grin Grin Grin
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« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2013, 04:15:43 PM »

Does this mean they will finally have a real liturgy  Grin

"They" already do.  Have had for some time, as a matter of fact.  Time to catch up.  Grin
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« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2013, 05:05:17 PM »

So they don't learn than in 4 years of seminary?

Guess it depends on the seminary  Shocked Grin.

Then what do they learn there?

I wouldn't know.  Probably best to a) ask a seminarian, or b) ask a priest, or c) peruse the prospectus of various seminaries if available, or d) any combination of a, b, & c.

Or tell the priest to just go an open an account with CAF and the overeager Liturgical police there will tell them how do to Mass.

Isn't it disappointing that internet zealots know more about celebrating the Mass that priests do?
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« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2013, 05:11:49 PM »

So they don't learn than in 4 years of seminary?

Guess it depends on the seminary  Shocked Grin.

Then what do they learn there?

I wouldn't know.  Probably best to a) ask a seminarian, or b) ask a priest, or c) peruse the prospectus of various seminaries if available, or d) any combination of a, b, & c.

Or tell the priest to just go an open an account with CAF and the overeager Liturgical police there will tell them how do to Mass.

Isn't it disappointing that internet zealots know more about celebrating the Mass that priests do?

Hmm....I guess there might be one or two internet zealots like that.  I'm guessing that for the most part, however, most of these internet zealots just *think* they know more than the priests.   Grin  But, as I'm neither, I don't know jack.... Grin Grin.
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« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2013, 06:59:49 PM »

Well, I don't know if I'm an Internet zealot, and I don't claim to know more than ALL priests.  Wink

However, I do know that it's not correct to start a Mass with the words, "Hi, everyone, thanks so much for joining me for today's Holy Eucharist! Did you know 'Eucharist' means 'giving thanks'?"  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2013, 10:40:52 PM »

It's about time they got more deacons. Many years, Deacon Manuel!
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« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2013, 02:19:43 PM »

It's about time they got more deacons. Many years, Deacon Manuel!

More deacons, yes.  And more priests.  And more orthodoxy.
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« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2013, 02:21:47 PM »

Well, I don't know if I'm an Internet zealot, and I don't claim to know more than ALL priests.  Wink

However, I do know that it's not correct to start a Mass with the words, "Hi, everyone, thanks so much for joining me for today's Holy Eucharist! Did you know 'Eucharist' means 'giving thanks'?"  Roll Eyes

What....you mean...that's not Roman Catholic for "Blessed is the Kingdom of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit?"  Grin Roll Eyes
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« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2013, 03:09:40 PM »

Well, I don't know if I'm an Internet zealot, and I don't claim to know more than ALL priests.  Wink

However, I do know that it's not correct to start a Mass with the words, "Hi, everyone, thanks so much for joining me for today's Holy Eucharist! Did you know 'Eucharist' means 'giving thanks'?"  Roll Eyes

What....you mean...that's not Roman Catholic for "Blessed is the Kingdom of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit?"  Grin Roll Eyes

random note, they should add that as the opening prayer into the NO. and by should, i mean, it would be nice to see, haha
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« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2013, 04:07:06 PM »

Yeah. it'd also be nice if they added one of the Ectenias from the DL as Prayers of the faithful during the NO. But sadly, I don't think it's going to happen. Anywa, on manuals, I thought they already had the GIRM for that?
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« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2013, 04:07:26 PM »

Well, I don't know if I'm an Internet zealot, and I don't claim to know more than ALL priests.  Wink

However, I do know that it's not correct to start a Mass with the words, "Hi, everyone, thanks so much for joining me for today's Holy Eucharist! Did you know 'Eucharist' means 'giving thanks'?"  Roll Eyes

I'd heard some priests give really good intros for Mass, but overall I think this part should be removed.  Most priests don't know what to do with it.  And I don't know why you need to "intro" the Mass anyway.
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« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2013, 04:23:36 PM »

Well, I don't know if I'm an Internet zealot, and I don't claim to know more than ALL priests.  Wink

However, I do know that it's not correct to start a Mass with the words, "Hi, everyone, thanks so much for joining me for today's Holy Eucharist! Did you know 'Eucharist' means 'giving thanks'?"  Roll Eyes

What....you mean...that's not Roman Catholic for "Blessed is the Kingdom of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit?"  Grin Roll Eyes

random note, they should add that as the opening prayer into the NO. and by should, i mean, it would be nice to see, haha

What'd be even nicer is if they changed the whole thing to the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom!  Wink
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« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2013, 04:31:51 PM »


[/quote]

What'd be even nicer is if they changed the whole thing to the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom!  Wink
[/quote]

Eh, suit yourself. I'd probably agree- if I wasn't stuck in a heavily Latin Catholic area. I'm one those Byzantines that is just content with what I have, because until anotherm ission moves in, that's all I've got. Which is the local Roman Catholic masses. However, I do say Vespers and Matins at home to compensate for the Latin-ness Smiley .
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« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2013, 04:38:37 PM »

Will the new manual be more tiresome than this is?
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« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2013, 05:10:21 PM »

Well, I don't know if I'm an Internet zealot, and I don't claim to know more than ALL priests.  Wink

However, I do know that it's not correct to start a Mass with the words, "Hi, everyone, thanks so much for joining me for today's Holy Eucharist! Did you know 'Eucharist' means 'giving thanks'?"  Roll Eyes

What....you mean...that's not Roman Catholic for "Blessed is the Kingdom of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit?"  Grin Roll Eyes

random note, they should add that as the opening prayer into the NO. and by should, i mean, it would be nice to see, haha

What'd be even nicer is if they changed the whole thing to the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom!  Wink

Hahah, yeah :-P

except of course, keep the Agnus Dei in there, just for some additional flavor :-P

and oh, get rid of those silly dresses that they wear, and go on wearing real vestements :-P

(all of the above has entered the world of jest, even though my last post was halways serious)
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« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2013, 05:19:13 PM »

Quote
quote author=brastaseptim link=topic=49359.msg868597#msg868597 date=1358886711Eh, suit yourself. I'd probably agree- if I wasn't stuck in a heavily Latin Catholic area. I'm one those Byzantines that is just content with what I have, because until anotherm ission moves in, that's all I've got. Which is the local Roman Catholic masses. However, I do say Vespers and Matins at home to compensate for the Latin-ness Smiley .

I'm one of them, too, brother.  There are a few Eastern Catholic parishes that are not all that far away, but due to my wife's poor health, they *are* too far away.

The chances of any RC church switching from the N.O. Mass to the DL of St. John are, I would guess, slim to none.  Hope springs eternal, though, eh  Grin?
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« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2013, 05:26:09 PM »


[/quote]

I'm one of them, too, brother.  There are a few Eastern Catholic parishes that are not all that far away, but due to my wife's poor health, they *are* too far away.

The chances of any RC church switching from the N.O. Mass to the DL of St. John are, I would guess, slim to none.  Hope springs eternal, though, eh  Grin?
[/quote]

I'd hope- but sadly, most Roman parishioners here wouldn't know what Byzantine Catholicism was if it came dancing out in a Phelonion while singing the Phos Hilaron and strangled them with a small omophor.
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« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2013, 05:28:19 PM »



I'm one of them, too, brother.  There are a few Eastern Catholic parishes that are not all that far away, but due to my wife's poor health, they *are* too far away.

The chances of any RC church switching from the N.O. Mass to the DL of St. John are, I would guess, slim to none.  Hope springs eternal, though, eh  Grin?
[/quote]

I'd hope- but sadly, most Roman parishioners here wouldn't know what Byzantine Catholicism was if it came dancing out in a Phelonion while singing the Phos Hilaron and strangled them with a small omophor.
[/quote]


LOLOLOL!!!  laugh laugh

By the way...welcome to the fray  Wink!
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 05:29:03 PM by J Michael » Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2013, 05:35:44 PM »



I'm one of them, too, brother.  There are a few Eastern Catholic parishes that are not all that far away, but due to my wife's poor health, they *are* too far away.

The chances of any RC church switching from the N.O. Mass to the DL of St. John are, I would guess, slim to none.  Hope springs eternal, though, eh  Grin?

I'd hope- but sadly, most Roman parishioners here wouldn't know what Byzantine Catholicism was if it came dancing out in a Phelonion while singing the Phos Hilaron and strangled them with a small omophor.
[/quote]


LOLOLOL!!!  laugh laugh

By the way...welcome to the fray  Wink!
[/quote]

Well, thank you. I'll just have to find my way out of the fray later. Wink
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« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2013, 05:53:15 PM »

Well, I don't know if I'm an Internet zealot, and I don't claim to know more than ALL priests.  Wink

However, I do know that it's not correct to start a Mass with the words, "Hi, everyone, thanks so much for joining me for today's Holy Eucharist! Did you know 'Eucharist' means 'giving thanks'?"  Roll Eyes

I'd heard some priests give really good intros for Mass, but overall I think this part should be removed.  Most priests don't know what to do with it.  And I don't know why you need to "intro" the Mass anyway.

I'd just be happy if they'd do the intro *after* they've processed up to the front and the opening hymn has faded, and *after* they've made the sign of the Cross, which is how it's really supposed to be done.
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« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2013, 06:22:57 PM »

Quote
quote author=brastaseptim link=topic=49359.msg868597#msg868597 date=1358886711Eh, suit yourself. I'd probably agree- if I wasn't stuck in a heavily Latin Catholic area. I'm one those Byzantines that is just content with what I have, because until anotherm ission moves in, that's all I've got. Which is the local Roman Catholic masses. However, I do say Vespers and Matins at home to compensate for the Latin-ness Smiley .

I'm one of them, too, brother.  There are a few Eastern Catholic parishes that are not all that far away, but due to my wife's poor health, they *are* too far away.

The chances of any RC church switching from the N.O. Mass to the DL of St. John are, I would guess, slim to none.  Hope springs eternal, though, eh  Grin?

I am fortunate to have a (Ruthenian) Byzantine Catholic church not too far away...problem is every time I come back I start complaining about the liturgy at the RC parish my wife likes. Then I am warned not to go back because I am filled with pride going there  Embarrassed
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« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2013, 06:24:27 PM »

Quote
quote author=brastaseptim link=topic=49359.msg868597#msg868597 date=1358886711Eh, suit yourself. I'd probably agree- if I wasn't stuck in a heavily Latin Catholic area. I'm one those Byzantines that is just content with what I have, because until anotherm ission moves in, that's all I've got. Which is the local Roman Catholic masses. However, I do say Vespers and Matins at home to compensate for the Latin-ness Smiley .

I'm one of them, too, brother.  There are a few Eastern Catholic parishes that are not all that far away, but due to my wife's poor health, they *are* too far away.

The chances of any RC church switching from the N.O. Mass to the DL of St. John are, I would guess, slim to none.  Hope springs eternal, though, eh  Grin?

I am fortunate to have a (Ruthenian) Byzantine Catholic church not too far away...problem is every time I come back I start complaining about the liturgy at the RC parish my wife likes. Then I am warned not to go back because I am filled with pride going there  Embarrassed

Here's a hint.  Stop complaining so much.
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« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2013, 06:40:12 PM »

I am fortunate to have a (Ruthenian) Byzantine Catholic church not too far away...problem is every time I come back I start complaining about the liturgy at the RC parish my wife likes. Then I am warned not to go back because I am filled with pride going there  Embarrassed

Here's a hint.  Stop complaining so much.

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« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2013, 07:29:58 PM »

Quote
quote author=brastaseptim link=topic=49359.msg868597#msg868597 date=1358886711Eh, suit yourself. I'd probably agree- if I wasn't stuck in a heavily Latin Catholic area. I'm one those Byzantines that is just content with what I have, because until anotherm ission moves in, that's all I've got. Which is the local Roman Catholic masses. However, I do say Vespers and Matins at home to compensate for the Latin-ness Smiley .

I'm one of them, too, brother.  There are a few Eastern Catholic parishes that are not all that far away, but due to my wife's poor health, they *are* too far away.

The chances of any RC church switching from the N.O. Mass to the DL of St. John are, I would guess, slim to none.  Hope springs eternal, though, eh  Grin?

I am fortunate to have a (Ruthenian) Byzantine Catholic church not too far away...problem is every time I come back I start complaining about the liturgy at the RC parish my wife likes. Then I am warned not to go back because I am filled with pride going there  Embarrassed

Here's a hint.  Stop complaining so much.

I agree.  I feel that so many RCs are so focused with what's wrong with the Liturgy that they have forgotten about the other aspects of being a Christian.  If one feeds the hungry, clothes the naked, cares for the sick, provides for the poor, etc., whatever is lacking in the Liturgy God will provide for.  But if you do none of that, then no matter how beautiful the Liturgy one attends to, the soul will always be lacking.
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« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2013, 09:24:40 PM »

Quote
quote author=brastaseptim link=topic=49359.msg868597#msg868597 date=1358886711Eh, suit yourself. I'd probably agree- if I wasn't stuck in a heavily Latin Catholic area. I'm one those Byzantines that is just content with what I have, because until anotherm ission moves in, that's all I've got. Which is the local Roman Catholic masses. However, I do say Vespers and Matins at home to compensate for the Latin-ness Smiley .

I'm one of them, too, brother.  There are a few Eastern Catholic parishes that are not all that far away, but due to my wife's poor health, they *are* too far away.

The chances of any RC church switching from the N.O. Mass to the DL of St. John are, I would guess, slim to none.  Hope springs eternal, though, eh  Grin?

I am fortunate to have a (Ruthenian) Byzantine Catholic church not too far away...problem is every time I come back I start complaining about the liturgy at the RC parish my wife likes. Then I am warned not to go back because I am filled with pride going there  Embarrassed

I'm surprised the gender neutral language doesn't get to you at the Ruthenian church. 

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« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2013, 09:27:47 PM »

I've been to a funeral with the new translation at the RC and it's very nice.  Prayers at the foot of the altar while the choir is singing the introit is always a good introduction to mass.  Not advocating the return of the 1962 but something needs to be placed in there.  It's like, hi, you are at the Roman Catholic Church and currently you are about to hear the 9:30am mass."   

I think the point of the booklet is a passive aggressive way of trying to tell priests that are doing corky stuff to knock it off without actually confronting them for doing so. 

Perhaps it is a hint that they do want the people to spin the altar back around the correct way.  It feels odd having the priest look at the people during services.
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