Church Activity

[Kerdy]

Please do not take this the wrong way, but from what I have seen, comparing the two, the Roman Catholic Church is much more active and outspoken than the Orthodox Church.  Is this observation mainly a result of where I live?  Is it the result of the Catholic Church having more worldly influence and authority?  I am not certain, but I am concerned about the Orthodox Church and its mission work.  I am not really looking for an answer to any specific question, just posting my observation for discussion.

[Justin Kissel]

I think part of it is that there are, what, like 68 times more Catholics than Orthodox in America? And that doesn't just mean that they are 68 times more powerful, because (as with money earning interest, or making your first million), the more you have the more you gain. So for every million more people they perhaps add more than a million worth of influence, power, etc. Thus by the time we get to the numbers in America, they may only have 68 million more people, but they have 680 times more influence, resources, etc.  They also had hospitals, universities, etc. built before they became such big businesses, such that they grew along with those industries. Gone are the days when a local parish or individual (unless they're a billionaire) could start a school or hospital. Nowadays that kind of project would cost more than the budget of entire jurisdictions over the course of several years, just to get it off the ground.

However, having said that, I will say that the Orthodox do seem more at peace with simply sitting and waiting. If Catholics say "preach the gospel, if necessary use words" then the Orthodox motto is "invite people to come and see, do something if you really have to". There are missions organizations, there are charity organizations, etc. There are orphanges, elementary schools, seminaries, homeless shelters, etc... but should there be more? Probably. It'd be nice to see more activity, and less "come and see." Jesus didn't say we'd be judged based on sharing the Gospel once we coaxed people into our onion-dome-topped parishes. We have to visit those in prison more, feed the poor more, educate and evangelize more. That's what he said to do. And I don't mean to denigrate the hard work that Orthodox already do in these areas... I just want more to be done.

[mike]

Please do not take this the wrong way, but from what I have seen, comparing the two, the Roman Catholic Church is much more active and outspoken than the Orthodox Church.  Is this observation mainly a result of where I live?  Is it the result of the Catholic Church having more worldly influence and authority?

Is it bad?

[Shanghaiski]

Appearances are often deceiving.

[Iconodule]

The more outspoken, the more opportunities to shoot yourself in the foot and discredit yourself, with the Catholic Church does over and over again. Which is not to say that the Orthodox Church shouldn't speak up, but I think there needs to be some serious rethinking about how Christian institutions present themselves in this society and what their social priorities are.

[Kerdy]

Please do not take this the wrong way, but from what I have seen, comparing the two, the Roman Catholic Church is much more active and outspoken than the Orthodox Church.  Is this observation mainly a result of where I live?  Is it the result of the Catholic Church having more worldly influence and authority?

Is it bad?

I don't know.  I wanted to get different perspectives.

[Nephi]

Please do not take this the wrong way, but from what I have seen, comparing the two, the Roman Catholic Church is much more active and outspoken than the Orthodox Church.  Is this observation mainly a result of where I live?  Is it the result of the Catholic Church having more worldly influence and authority?  I am not certain, but I am concerned about the Orthodox Church and its mission work.  I am not really looking for an answer to any specific question, just posting my observation for discussion.

From what I've seen, the Russian Church (as an example) is very outspoken and active - in Russia. I think that it's just due to the nature of Orthooxy only being 1-2% of Christians in the USA that they're completely silent in comparison to the RCC. That said, many of our American hierarchs are indeed outspoken and involved in trying to influence society and politics.

[Gamliel]

I remember a deacon once said, "The LORD approaches people in silence."

[Peter J]

The more outspoken, the more opportunities to shoot yourself in the foot and discredit yourself, with the Catholic Church does over and over again. Which is not to say that the Orthodox Church shouldn't speak up, but I think there needs to be some serious rethinking about how Christian institutions present themselves in this society and what their social priorities are.

I think the bottom line is that both sides have their faults; but on OCnet the faults of the Catholics tend to be played up and the faults of the Orthodox tend to be either ignored or explained away. (Of course, there are plenty of Catholic fora (such as the one that some of us have been discussing on another thread) where the reverse happens.)

[Iconodule]

The more outspoken, the more opportunities to shoot yourself in the foot and discredit yourself, with the Catholic Church does over and over again. Which is not to say that the Orthodox Church shouldn't speak up, but I think there needs to be some serious rethinking about how Christian institutions present themselves in this society and what their social priorities are.

I think the bottom line is that both sides have their faults; but on OCnet the faults of the Catholics tend to be played up and the faults of the Orthodox tend to be either ignored or explained away. (Of course, there are plenty of Catholic fora (such as the one that some of us have been discussing on another thread) where the reverse happens.)

Thankfully no one really gives a damn what happens on OC.net.

[LizaSymonenko]

I would have to disagree that the Orthodox sit back and do little to influence/change/improve their corner of the world.

I live in Michigan, near Detroit.  We have close to 40 Orthodox parishes within decent driving distance....of all flavors (Greek, Ukrainian, Antiochian, Serbian, Romanian, Macedonian, Bulgarian, Russian, Albanian, OCA,....)

We have an OCW - Orthodox Christian Women, organization.  They collect funds and materials for the Detroit Children's Hospital, as well as women's shelters, etc.  They sponsor lectures and outings to local monasteries, churches..., as well.

We have a branch of the COCC - Council of Orthodox Christian Churches.  All parishes send a delegate and are represented.  The COCC holds fundraisers, group events such as the St. Nicholas program, festivals, charity basketball games with "super stars", etc.  All of this tries to invite the public to "Come and See".  They'll come for the live reindeer at the St. Nick program, but, will walk past the open church doors to get to the hall....and someone will ask them to come in and have a look....they might just spark an interest.  The COCC is also the group that sponsors and organizes the Pan-Orthodox Vespers during Great Lent.

We also have a Orthodox Detroit Outreach.  These folks are also comprised of volunteers from various parishes.  They host soup kitchens, prepare bag lunches, cook breakfasts, etc. for the homeless.  They actually go out in to the streets and "touch" the needy.  They provide clothing, and canned/dry goods for the destitute.  The plant community gardens, clean up playgrounds, etc.

My own parish has a chapter of the Jr. Ukrainian Orthodox League....and the kids are always going "out" into the public arena and putting the "Orthodox" name out there....be it by volunteering at city wide bake sales, volunteering at the Humane Society, reaching out to sick kids in hospitals with cards and toys, visiting nursing homes, etc.

It's not true the Orthodox don't "do" things....we just don't advertise everything we do.  The only ones who know, are the ones whom we directly touch, embrace, and help out.

[ialmisry]

The more outspoken, the more opportunities to shoot yourself in the foot and discredit yourself, with the Catholic Church does over and over again. Which is not to say that the Orthodox Church shouldn't speak up, but I think there needs to be some serious rethinking about how Christian institutions present themselves in this society and what their social priorities are.

Like benedictions for the promoters of anti-Christian gospels?
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,49361.0.html
(Chairman Schumer Invites Archbishop Demetrios to Offer the Benediction)

[augustin717]

I take the opportunity to express my satisfaction that all the usual suspects are annoyed by that. That's in reference to the message above.

[LizaSymonenko]

The more outspoken, the more opportunities to shoot yourself in the foot and discredit yourself, with the Catholic Church does over and over again. Which is not to say that the Orthodox Church shouldn't speak up, but I think there needs to be some serious rethinking about how Christian institutions present themselves in this society and what their social priorities are.

Like benedictions for the promoters of anti-Christian gospels?
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,49361.0.html
(Chairman Schumer Invites Archbishop Demetrios to Offer the Benediction)

...after all, we are instructed to pray for our enemies, aren't we? 

[ialmisry]

The more outspoken, the more opportunities to shoot yourself in the foot and discredit yourself, with the Catholic Church does over and over again. Which is not to say that the Orthodox Church shouldn't speak up, but I think there needs to be some serious rethinking about how Christian institutions present themselves in this society and what their social priorities are.

Like benedictions for the promoters of anti-Christian gospels?
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,49361.0.html
(Chairman Schumer Invites Archbishop Demetrios to Offer the Benediction)

...after all, we are instructed to pray for our enemies, aren't we? 

Yes, but according to the dictates of God, not theirs.

[Peter J]

The more outspoken, the more opportunities to shoot yourself in the foot and discredit yourself, with the Catholic Church does over and over again. Which is not to say that the Orthodox Church shouldn't speak up, but I think there needs to be some serious rethinking about how Christian institutions present themselves in this society and what their social priorities are.

Like benedictions for the promoters of anti-Christian gospels?
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,49361.0.html
(Chairman Schumer Invites Archbishop Demetrios to Offer the Benediction)

Not as bad as Notre Dame (and Fr. Jenkins particularly) a few years ago.

[ialmisry]

I take the opportunity to express my satisfaction that all the usual suspects are annoyed by that. That's in reference to the message above.

a rather shallow existence, having to depend on the annoyance of others for satisfaction in life

[rest deleted, lest it be taken as political]

Btw, not having seen the text of the benediction, I can't say whether I'm annoyed or not over it.

EDIT: Now having seen it, I'm pretty indifferent.

[Peter J]

The more outspoken, the more opportunities to shoot yourself in the foot and discredit yourself, with the Catholic Church does over and over again. Which is not to say that the Orthodox Church shouldn't speak up, but I think there needs to be some serious rethinking about how Christian institutions present themselves in this society and what their social priorities are.

I think the bottom line is that both sides have their faults; but on OCnet the faults of the Catholics tend to be played up and the faults of the Orthodox tend to be either ignored or explained away. (Of course, there are plenty of Catholic fora (such as the one that some of us have been discussing on another thread) where the reverse happens.)

Thankfully no one really gives a damn what happens on OC.net.

Well that's putting a positive spin on the situation! 

[Kerdy]

I would have to disagree that the Orthodox sit back and do little to influence/change/improve their corner of the world.

I live in Michigan, near Detroit.  We have close to 40 Orthodox parishes within decent driving distance....of all flavors (Greek, Ukrainian, Antiochian, Serbian, Romanian, Macedonian, Bulgarian, Russian, Albanian, OCA,....)

We have an OCW - Orthodox Christian Women, organization.  They collect funds and materials for the Detroit Children's Hospital, as well as women's shelters, etc.  They sponsor lectures and outings to local monasteries, churches..., as well.

We have a branch of the COCC - Council of Orthodox Christian Churches.  All parishes send a delegate and are represented.  The COCC holds fundraisers, group events such as the St. Nicholas program, festivals, charity basketball games with "super stars", etc.  All of this tries to invite the public to "Come and See".  They'll come for the live reindeer at the St. Nick program, but, will walk past the open church doors to get to the hall....and someone will ask them to come in and have a look....they might just spark an interest.  The COCC is also the group that sponsors and organizes the Pan-Orthodox Vespers during Great Lent.

We also have a Orthodox Detroit Outreach.  These folks are also comprised of volunteers from various parishes.  They host soup kitchens, prepare bag lunches, cook breakfasts, etc. for the homeless.  They actually go out in to the streets and "touch" the needy.  They provide clothing, and canned/dry goods for the destitute.  The plant community gardens, clean up playgrounds, etc.

My own parish has a chapter of the Jr. Ukrainian Orthodox League....and the kids are always going "out" into the public arena and putting the "Orthodox" name out there....be it by volunteering at city wide bake sales, volunteering at the Humane Society, reaching out to sick kids in hospitals with cards and toys, visiting nursing homes, etc.

It's not true the Orthodox don't "do" things....we just don't advertise everything we do.  The only ones who know, are the ones whom we directly touch, embrace, and help out.

Thanks Liza!

I am guessing a lot of it most likely depends on location.  If there is a strong presence of the Orthodox Church, it is probably more active than in the areas I have seen where the parish is small and usually elderly.

[Kerdy]

Please do not take this the wrong way, but from what I have seen, comparing the two, the Roman Catholic Church is much more active and outspoken than the Orthodox Church.  Is this observation mainly a result of where I live?  Is it the result of the Catholic Church having more worldly influence and authority?  I am not certain, but I am concerned about the Orthodox Church and its mission work.  I am not really looking for an answer to any specific question, just posting my observation for discussion.

From what I've seen, the Russian Church (as an example) is very outspoken and active - in Russia. I think that it's just due to the nature of Orthooxy only being 1-2% of Christians in the USA that they're completely silent in comparison to the RCC. That said, many of our American hierarchs are indeed outspoken and involved in trying to influence society and politics.

Thank you Nephi!  As Liza pointed out, it seems to be location and as you pointed out, it seems to be numbers.  It isn’t that I doubted the intent or desire; I just have not seen it first hand, so I asked.

[Kerdy]

The more outspoken, the more opportunities to shoot yourself in the foot and discredit yourself, with the Catholic Church does over and over again. Which is not to say that the Orthodox Church shouldn't speak up, but I think there needs to be some serious rethinking about how Christian institutions present themselves in this society and what their social priorities are.

I think the bottom line is that both sides have their faults; but on OCnet the faults of the Catholics tend to be played up and the faults of the Orthodox tend to be either ignored or explained away. (Of course, there are plenty of Catholic fora (such as the one that some of us have been discussing on another thread) where the reverse happens.)

This possibility has not escaped me, but this is one of those things I have little knowledge of overall and did not want to make assumptions.

[KBN1]

Appearances are often deceiving.

Agreed.  When I first started attending my parish I didn't think much was going on beyond liturgy and coffee hours.  The more I became acquainted with the parish I started to see just how much mission and charity work was going on.  No one that was doing it felt the need to broadcast it all over the place though.  People are feeding the hungry, visiting those in prison, giving money to the poor, clothing the naked, etc. 

[Nephi]

Thank you Nephi!  As Liza pointed out, it seems to be location and as you pointed out, it seems to be numbers.  It isn’t that I doubted the intent or desire; I just have not seen it first hand, so I asked.

Then you might be interested in looking at the religious leaders that signed the Manhattan Declaration. A number of Orthodox clergy and hierarchs signed it, but of course substantially smaller than most from other traditions.

[Peter J]

Then you might be interested in looking at the religious leaders that signed the Manhattan Declaration. A number of Orthodox clergy and hierarchs signed it,

Ecumenism! Ecumenism! Heresy!

... Oh, wait, I'm not Orthodox.

[katherineofdixie]

Appearances are often deceiving.

Agreed.  When I first started attending my parish I didn't think much was going on beyond liturgy and coffee hours.  The more I became acquainted with the parish I started to see just how much mission and charity work was going on.  No one that was doing it felt the need to broadcast it all over the place though.  People are feeding the hungry, visiting those in prison, giving money to the poor, clothing the naked, etc. 

Not to mention OCPM, OCMC and various other organizations on a national scale - and of course, Philoptochos ("friends of the poor"), the Greek Orthodox womens' charitable organization, the largest Christian women’s philanthropic organization in the United States. Nationwide it is second only to the Sisterhood of Hadassah, the Jewish women’s charitable group.

[augustin717]

Thank you Nephi!  As Liza pointed out, it seems to be location and as you pointed out, it seems to be numbers.  It isn’t that I doubted the intent or desire; I just have not seen it first hand, so I asked.

Then you might be interested in looking at the religious leaders that signed the Manhattan Declaration. A number of Orthodox clergy and hierarchs signed it, but of course substantially smaller than most from other traditions.

Thank God for that. Also thank God for those that signed. Good to know the neoconservatives.

[Nephi]

Thank God for that. Also thank God for those that signed. Good to know the neoconservatives.

Keep your bitterness over most Orthodox disagreeing with your illumined nonsense to the politics board, please.

[mike]

Thank God for that. Also thank God for those that signed. Good to know the neoconservatives.

Keep your bitterness over most Orthodox posting here disagreeing with your illumined nonsense to the politics board, please.

Fixed that for you.

[Nephi]

Thank God for that. Also thank God for those that signed. Good to know the neoconservatives.

Keep your bitterness over most Orthodox posting here disagreeing with your illumined nonsense to the politics board, please.

Fixed that for you.

Didn't realize most Orthodox in the world disagreed over a point of moral dogmatic consensus from the first century, but thanks for pointing that out.

[augustin717]

Thank God for that. Also thank God for those that signed. Good to know the neoconservatives.

Keep your bitterness over most Orthodox posting here disagreeing with your illumined nonsense to the politics board, please.

Fixed that for you.

That's true. We that post on religious forums aren't all that representative of what's going on on the ground.  If Anything, I've come to love more and more the relative indifference of most real life Orthodox people to church stuff. I think they are thae backbone and the most sane element in the church. They have a saying in Transylvania "Incense is the priest's business" ("Grija popii de tamaie").

[orthonorm]

I take the opportunity to express my satisfaction that all the usual suspects are annoyed by that. That's in reference to the message above.

Good grief. Sodomism? Is that a word now?

[orthonorm]

Thank God for that. Also thank God for those that signed. Good to know the neoconservatives.

Keep your bitterness over most Orthodox posting here disagreeing with your illumined nonsense to the politics board, please.

Fixed that for you.

Didn't realize most Orthodox in the world disagreed over a point of moral dogmatic consensus from the first century, but thanks for pointing that out.

This is a ridiculous statement you do realize? I hope that emoticon thing is a way of pointing out irony?

[Shanghaiski]

Then you might be interested in looking at the religious leaders that signed the Manhattan Declaration. A number of Orthodox clergy and hierarchs signed it,

Ecumenism! Ecumenism! Heresy!

... Oh, wait, I'm not Orthodox.

That's actually not ecumenism.

[Kerdy]

Thank you Nephi!  As Liza pointed out, it seems to be location and as you pointed out, it seems to be numbers.  It isn’t that I doubted the intent or desire; I just have not seen it first hand, so I asked.

Then you might be interested in looking at the religious leaders that signed the Manhattan Declaration. A number of Orthodox clergy and hierarchs signed it, but of course substantially smaller than most from other traditions.

Thank God for that. Also thank God for those that signed. Good to know the neoconservatives.

This isn't the politics area.  Some of us don't join that area for a reason.  Please be kind enough to keep the politics where it belongs, the politics area.  Thanks!

[ialmisry]

Thank God for that. Also thank God for those that signed. Good to know the neoconservatives.

Keep your bitterness over most Orthodox posting here disagreeing with your illumined nonsense to the politics board, please.

Fixed that for you.

That's true. We that post on religious forums aren't all that representative of what's going on on the ground.  If Anything, I've come to love more and more the relative indifference of most real life Orthodox people to church stuff. I think they are thae backbone and the most sane element in the church. They have a saying in Transylvania "Incense is the priest's business" ("Grija popii de tamaie").

Not sure how serious we are supposed to take the thoughts on the Church of someone whose other gospel consists of preaching not to take the Faith seriously.

Never been much in Transylvania, but in Wallahia I saw enough evidence of piety to know that you are selecting what you wish to see as "real life Orthodox people."

as to representative, a full answer to you in your folly would swerve into politics.  But for a little analogy, I don't think "Call to Action" and EWTN represent what's going on on the ground among the Vatican's flock here, but neither has to: their respective sides are running the show and dominating what "goes on on the ground."

[orthonorm]

Thank God for that. Also thank God for those that signed. Good to know the neoconservatives.

Keep your bitterness over most Orthodox posting here disagreeing with your illumined nonsense to the politics board, please.

Fixed that for you.

That's true. We that post on religious forums aren't all that representative of what's going on on the ground.  If Anything, I've come to love more and more the relative indifference of most real life Orthodox people to church stuff. I think they are thae backbone and the most sane element in the church. They have a saying in Transylvania "Incense is the priest's business" ("Grija popii de tamaie").

Not sure how serious we are supposed to take the thoughts on the Church of someone whose other gospel consists of preaching not to take the Faith seriously.

Never been much in Transylvania, but in Wallahia I saw enough evidence of piety to know that you are selecting what you wish to see as "real life Orthodox people."

Who doesn't?

And having been to Transylvania myself, Fogarasch primarily, pardon my German, and lived amid many Romanians in diaspora in Europe, I would say augustin's comments hit dead on usually.

Now Bucharest? That is another story. But what good comes out of Bucharest? Thinking . . .

I got nothing. My most beloved Romanians come about as far away as possible from that place. But I am terrible with geography and biography so maybe you can enlighten me. (Seriously.)

[Peter J]

Then you might be interested in looking at the religious leaders that signed the Manhattan Declaration. A number of Orthodox clergy and hierarchs signed it,

Ecumenism! Ecumenism! Heresy!

... Oh, wait, I'm not Orthodox.

That's actually not ecumenism.

You don't believe in "Ecumenical until proven innocent"?

[augustin717]

Not sure how serious we are supposed to take the thoughts on the Church of someone whose other gospel consists of preaching not to take the Faith seriously.

I do take a few things somehow seriously. Just that I do not post about them. Does that satisfy an inquiring mind like yours? Now of course plenty of the "problems" here amuse me to no end.

[jmbejdl]

Thank God for that. Also thank God for those that signed. Good to know the neoconservatives.

Keep your bitterness over most Orthodox posting here disagreeing with your illumined nonsense to the politics board, please.

Fixed that for you.

That's true. We that post on religious forums aren't all that representative of what's going on on the ground.  If Anything, I've come to love more and more the relative indifference of most real life Orthodox people to church stuff. I think they are thae backbone and the most sane element in the church. They have a saying in Transylvania "Incense is the priest's business" ("Grija popii de tamaie").

Not sure how serious we are supposed to take the thoughts on the Church of someone whose other gospel consists of preaching not to take the Faith seriously.

Never been much in Transylvania, but in Wallahia I saw enough evidence of piety to know that you are selecting what you wish to see as "real life Orthodox people."

Who doesn't?

And having been to Transylvania myself, Fogarasch primarily, pardon my German, and lived amid many Romanians in diaspora in Europe, I would say augustin's comments hit dead on usually.

Now Bucharest? That is another story. But what good comes out of Bucharest? Thinking . . .

I got nothing. My most beloved Romanians come about as far away as possible from that place. But I am terrible with geography and biography so maybe you can enlighten me. (Seriously.)

Well I would agree with Isa rather than you and Augustin, though the vast majority of my experience is in Moldova and Bucovina. Having said that, I find that a large proportion (probably larger than would be expected given the population sizes within Romania, though I've never stopped to actually work that out) of Romanian parishioners over here also come from Moldova and Bucovina, so perhaps that area really is more pious than average. I certainly know people that would fit Augustin's description but I certainly couldn't describe them as 'most Orthodox'. My experience of Romanians both in Romania and over here is that they are, on average, possibly the most pious population in Europe (even more so than the Poles, in my experience, which is saying something). Augustin's claim of widespread 'relative indifference' to the faith is not something I recognise at all.

James

[LizaSymonenko]

I tend to agree.

I am well acquainted with a number of Romanian parishes in my area....and the people are very pious.

I was impressed with how earnestly they prayed, how modestly they dressed, how kind and loving they were.

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