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Author Topic: True 10 Commandments, looking at a woman is not a sin, Slavery was condemned  (Read 3316 times) Average Rating: 0
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2013, 10:07:28 PM »

Just a question, if we're not allowed to look at a woman lustfully, then how does one find their mate?

At the risk of sounding cliché, you don’t marry what you see (a hottie), you marry who the person is (hottie on the inside).  Marriage is about compatibility and emotional connection, not lust.  That’s why, when looking for a spouse, you don’t look for one who turns you on today, you look for one you want to wake up next to at 67 and smells funny.

Noticing physical appearance and attraction does not equate to lust.
You got a point, but come on, you would be lying if you said that physical attraction doesn't play at least a miniscule part in this. You're going to tell me that your wife's physical appearance was never on your mind when you were courting each other?
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« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2013, 10:08:58 PM »

All right, you fellows have made some goods points--especially Kerdy--that I will take to heart--however, admittedly, a lot of it doesn't fully make sense to me yet because I'm somewhat of an emotionally detached person.
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« Reply #47 on: January 20, 2013, 10:17:14 PM »

All right, you fellows have made some goods points--especially Kerdy--that I will take to heart--however, admittedly, a lot of it doesn't fully make sense to me yet because I'm somewhat of an emotionally detached person.

Trust me, I wouldn’t want to trade places with you.  It was tough enough the first time around.  We all know how draining it can be.   I have even decided if something happens and I find myself without my wife, for any reason, I have no intention of looking for another.  I would spend the rest of my life learning, reading, hanging out with my dog and smoking pipes.  The smell of English tobacco is a lady repellant. laugh
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 10:17:36 PM by Kerdy » Logged
Shanghaiski
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« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2013, 10:19:50 PM »

All right, you fellows have made some goods points--especially Kerdy--that I will take to heart--however, admittedly, a lot of it doesn't fully make sense to me yet because I'm somewhat of an emotionally detached person.

Trust me, I wouldn’t want to trade places with you.  It was tough enough the first time around.  We all know how draining it can be.   I have even decided if something happens and I find myself without my wife, for any reason, I have no intention of looking for another.  I would spend the rest of my life learning, reading, hanging out with my dog and smoking pipes.  The smell of English tobacco is a lady repellant. laugh

You would become an Oxford don!
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« Reply #49 on: January 20, 2013, 10:43:40 PM »

I knew this sounded familiar.  Roll Eyes

Friend, you talk about doing exegetical studies, but I see no exegesis. Just jibberish.

Not that it isn't fun to watch you interact with others, but seriously, just jibberish with a theological vocabulary.
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« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2013, 10:47:51 PM »

I've come to the same conclusions (somewhat) before that fornication is never explicitly condemned in the Bible, but the argument used against me is always that the Church says it's wrong, therefore it's wrong.
1 Corinthians 6:9
Know yee not that the vnrighteous shall not inherite the kingdome of God? Be not deceiued: neither fornicatours, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselues with mankinde,

This guy is hardcore.
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« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2013, 11:03:37 PM »

Where does the bible say I can't desire my relatives?

In Leviticus 20, there is a large section having to do with "uncovering the nakedness" of various relatives: fathers' wife, son's wife, half-sister, an aunt or uncle's wife, etc. - all kinds of relational combinations possible in the multi-wife, extended families of that time.

Interesting also because, in the Pentateuch itself therefore, there is an ordering of sexual mores within the family that take for granted men having more than one wife: for example, the text doesn't say to not uncover the nakedness of your mother or sister; it refers to your father's wife or your father's daughter or your mother's daughter.

In that context, one's mother is his father's wife, but the woman whose nakednes he is told not to uncover is ALSO his father's wife (and perhaps his half-sister's mother), so therefore it is forbidden.

"Uncovering nakedness" can be variously interpreted as merely looking, or taking advantage of in some way, all the way to engaging in sex with the person. In other words, uncovering nakedness is a euphemism, just like "knowing" one's wife.


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« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2013, 11:04:47 PM »

I've come to the same conclusions (somewhat) before that fornication is never explicitly condemned in the Bible, but the argument used against me is always that the Church says it's wrong, therefore it's wrong.
1 Corinthians 6:9
Know yee not that the vnrighteous shall not inherite the kingdome of God? Be not deceiued: neither fornicatours, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselues with mankinde,

This guy is hardcore.
Who?  St. Paul, SBC94, JamesR, or me?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 11:05:24 PM by pmpn8rGPT » Logged

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« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2013, 11:07:40 PM »

I've come to the same conclusions (somewhat) before that fornication is never explicitly condemned in the Bible, but the argument used against me is always that the Church says it's wrong, therefore it's wrong.
1 Corinthians 6:9
Know yee not that the vnrighteous shall not inherite the kingdome of God? Be not deceiued: neither fornicatours, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselues with mankinde,

This guy is hardcore.
Who?  St. Paul, SBC94, JamesR, or me?

You for using the actual KJV.
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Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. - Matt. 5:24
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« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2013, 11:16:24 PM »

I've come to the same conclusions (somewhat) before that fornication is never explicitly condemned in the Bible, but the argument used against me is always that the Church says it's wrong, therefore it's wrong.
1 Corinthians 6:9
Know yee not that the vnrighteous shall not inherite the kingdome of God? Be not deceiued: neither fornicatours, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselues with mankinde,

This guy is hardcore.
Who?  St. Paul, SBC94, JamesR, or me?

You for using the actual KJV.
Grin
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« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2013, 11:18:50 PM »

I've come to the same conclusions (somewhat) before that fornication is never explicitly condemned in the Bible, but the argument used against me is always that the Church says it's wrong, therefore it's wrong.
1 Corinthians 6:9
Know yee not that the vnrighteous shall not inherite the kingdome of God? Be not deceiued: neither fornicatours, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselues with mankinde,

This guy is hardcore.
Who?  St. Paul, SBC94, JamesR, or me?

You for using the actual KJV.

Thats what the OSB is using, at least for the time being.
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Kerdy
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« Reply #56 on: January 20, 2013, 11:21:01 PM »

Where does the bible say I can't desire my relatives?

In Leviticus 20, there is a large section having to do with "uncovering the nakedness" of various relatives: fathers' wife, son's wife, half-sister, an aunt or uncle's wife, etc. - all kinds of relational combinations possible in the multi-wife, extended families of that time.

Interesting also because, in the Pentateuch itself therefore, there is an ordering of sexual mores within the family that take for granted men having more than one wife: for example, the text doesn't say to not uncover the nakedness of your mother or sister; it refers to your father's wife or your father's daughter or your mother's daughter.

In that context, one's mother is his father's wife, but the woman whose nakednes he is told not to uncover is ALSO his father's wife (and perhaps his half-sister's mother), so therefore it is forbidden.

"Uncovering nakedness" can be variously interpreted as merely looking, or taking advantage of in some way, all the way to engaging in sex with the person. In other words, uncovering nakedness is a euphemism, just like "knowing" one's wife.




Leviticus has a lot of information people don't like, disregard, and attempt to persuade it actually says something it does not.  It’s difficult to have a real discussion with someone who does this.  It’s one of the many things which pushed me away from being protestant and toward Orthodoxy.  Orthodoxy doesn’t change no matter how much someone wants it to be different.  It is what it is and you either accept it or you don’t.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 11:23:13 PM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #57 on: January 20, 2013, 11:40:33 PM »

Where does the bible say I can't desire my relatives?

In Leviticus 20, there is a large section having to do with "uncovering the nakedness" of various relatives: fathers' wife, son's wife, half-sister, an aunt or uncle's wife, etc. - all kinds of relational combinations possible in the multi-wife, extended families of that time.

Interesting also because, in the Pentateuch itself therefore, there is an ordering of sexual mores within the family that take for granted men having more than one wife: for example, the text doesn't say to not uncover the nakedness of your mother or sister; it refers to your father's wife or your father's daughter or your mother's daughter.

In that context, one's mother is his father's wife, but the woman whose nakednes he is told not to uncover is ALSO his father's wife (and perhaps his half-sister's mother), so therefore it is forbidden.

"Uncovering nakedness" can be variously interpreted as merely looking, or taking advantage of in some way, all the way to engaging in sex with the person. In other words, uncovering nakedness is a euphemism, just like "knowing" one's wife.
I don't know if you know Hebrew, but in the Hebrew it gets even more fascinating...
For example Genesis 12:3 in most English Bibles says "And I will blesse them that blesse thee, and curse him, that curseth thee: and in thee shal all families of the earth be blessed."
In the Hebrew the word translated as "I will bless" is
בָרְכָ
Which can mean "bless" but can also mean "kneel to"
Also, the word for "curse him" is
  קַלֶּלְ,
Which can mean "and cursing" but also might mean "and spitting"
So it would be...
"And I will [kneel to] them that [kneel to] thee, and [spit on]  him, that [spit on] thee: and in thee shal all families of the earth be blessed."
There's more than that too (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SytNaMfQv7M)
« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 12:03:29 AM by pmpn8rGPT » Logged

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« Reply #58 on: January 20, 2013, 11:52:50 PM »

I do not know Hebrew;  took a class once but have forgotten it all. That is a very interesting translation. Thanks for sharing!
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« Reply #59 on: January 21, 2013, 12:12:07 AM »

I do not know Hebrew;  took a class once but have forgotten it all. That is a very interesting translation. Thanks for sharing!
Indeed, I'm trying to learn more of the ancient aleph-bets (Aramaic, pictograph, etc.) this is my favorite one

YHWH in the earliest form of Hebrew (ancient Hebrew pictograph Aleph-bet)

Christ on the Cross

Probably the biggest defense against Arianism
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« Reply #60 on: January 21, 2013, 12:14:33 AM »

I agree, that's precisely why I love Orthodoxy. It doesn't attempt to sugarcoat or disregard the parts I don't like in a mediocre manner--like many Evangelical apologist sites do--but rather strictly adheres to the full picture--no matter how stupid, outdated, harsh and miserable it may make me. Orthodoxy makes me miserable and is probably the reason for most of the stress in my life and my misery, but at least it's true.
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« Reply #61 on: January 21, 2013, 12:19:58 AM »

I agree, that's precisely why I love Orthodoxy. It doesn't attempt to sugarcoat or disregard the parts I don't like in a mediocre manner--like many Evangelical apologist sites do--but rather strictly adheres to the full picture--no matter how stupid, outdated, harsh and miserable it may make me. Orthodoxy makes me miserable and is probably the reason for most of the stress in my life and my misery, but at least it's true.
Just as God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, so is The Church...
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« Reply #62 on: January 21, 2013, 10:33:45 AM »

I don't believe that either protestantism or Orthodoxy comes off looking very good here (which I guess should make me happy Wink Wink).

And may I ask what you are doing here?  If you want to learn about Orthodoxy, shut up and listen.  If you want to spread your Protestant bull droppings, get lost.


I've come to the same conclusions (somewhat) before that fornication is never explicitly condemned in the Bible, but the argument used against me is always that the Church says it's wrong, therefore it's wrong.

And the Bible says it's wrong too.

Prove it, actually refute the argument, no ones trying to justify sin, I'm trying to convict those who commit the sin of adding words to God's Word, The Bible.

If I'm wrong then please refute me, otherwise don't say anything out of presupposition. I'm pro Bible not tradition, tradition is man, God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit's) Word is in The Greeks.
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« Reply #63 on: January 21, 2013, 11:05:09 AM »

I don't care what Protestants or orthodox's say, I care about what The Bible says. The Bible and Early Church Fathers are the authority,

You contradict yourself in this statement.

Orthodox "church" isn't the Early Church Fathers.
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« Reply #64 on: January 21, 2013, 11:05:09 AM »

I agree, that's precisely why I love Orthodoxy. It doesn't attempt to sugarcoat or disregard the parts I don't like in a mediocre manner--like many Evangelical apologist sites do--but rather strictly adheres to the full picture--no matter how stupid, outdated, harsh and miserable it may make me. Orthodoxy makes me miserable and is probably the reason for most of the stress in my life and my misery, but at least it's true.
Just as God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, so is The Church...
\
\
Sure about that? orthodox church says lust is a sin yet\

ἡ δὲ εὐαγγέλιος φωνὴ ἐπιτατικώτερον διδάσκει περὶ ἁγνείας λέγουσα· “Πᾶς ὁ ἰδὼν γυναῖκα ἀλλοτρίαν πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ. καὶ ὁ γαμῶν” - Theophilus to Autolycus, B III, Ch 3, quoting Mt 5:28

Hmm, I wonder what ἀλλοτρίαν means...

belonging to another person, belonging to others, foreign, strange.
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« Reply #65 on: January 21, 2013, 12:15:36 PM »

I agree, that's precisely why I love Orthodoxy. It doesn't attempt to sugarcoat or disregard the parts I don't like in a mediocre manner--like many Evangelical apologist sites do--but rather strictly adheres to the full picture--no matter how stupid, outdated, harsh and miserable it may make me. Orthodoxy makes me miserable and is probably the reason for most of the stress in my life and my misery, but at least it's true.
Just as God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, so is The Church...
\
\
Sure about that? orthodox church says lust is a sin yet\

ἡ δὲ εὐαγγέλιος φωνὴ ἐπιτατικώτερον διδάσκει περὶ ἁγνείας λέγουσα· “Πᾶς ὁ ἰδὼν γυναῖκα ἀλλοτρίαν πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ. καὶ ὁ γαμῶν” - Theophilus to Autolycus, B III, Ch 3, quoting Mt 5:28

Hmm, I wonder what ἀλλοτρίαν means...

belonging to another person, belonging to others, foreign, strange.
The Orthodox Church has always said lust is a sin.  Some of the early Church Fathers even went too far and said all Christians MUST be celibate.  IIRC there was someone in the fourth(?) century who got anathemized just for saying that marriage may be more beneficial for some people than celibacy. 
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« Reply #66 on: January 21, 2013, 12:21:34 PM »

I don't care what Protestants or orthodox's say, I care about what The Bible says. The Bible and Early Church Fathers are the authority,

You contradict yourself in this statement.

Orthodox "church" isn't the Early Church Fathers.

True. But the "Early Church Fathers" are part of and lights of the Orthodox Church. If you really followed them, you would be Orthodox.
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« Reply #67 on: January 21, 2013, 12:30:47 PM »

I don't care what Protestants or orthodox's say, I care about what The Bible says. The Bible and Early Church Fathers are the authority,

You contradict yourself in this statement.

Orthodox "church" isn't the Early Church Fathers.
It is our belief that the Church has kept the apostolic faith, which is also the faith of the Early Church Fathers.

It's funny, actually. I distinctly remember that you said in one of your posts that you were interested in Orthodoxy, however, I have not seen anything from you that suggests that you have any wish to do so. I haven't seen any questions, no inquiry, no interest whatsoever, only statements, of whom, many have been so cryptic that several people in here(including myself) have had a very hard time figuring out, what exactly you are talking about. What do you even know about Orthodoxy, that gives the above statement any basis?
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« Reply #68 on: January 21, 2013, 03:24:38 PM »

I don't care what Protestants or orthodox's say, I care about what The Bible says. The Bible and Early Church Fathers are the authority,

You contradict yourself in this statement.

Orthodox "church" isn't the Early Church Fathers.
It is our belief that the Church has kept the apostolic faith, which is also the faith of the Early Church Fathers.

It's funny, actually. I distinctly remember that you said in one of your posts that you were interested in Orthodoxy, however, I have not seen anything from you that suggests that you have any wish to do so.

Well, maybe he is, in the same way that I'm interested in a sandwich. (Haven't had lunch yet.)

Cheesy
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« Reply #69 on: January 21, 2013, 03:26:31 PM »

I don't care what Protestants or orthodox's say, I care about what The Bible says. The Bible and Early Church Fathers are the authority,

You contradict yourself in this statement.

Orthodox "church" isn't the Early Church Fathers.

True. But the "Early Church Fathers" are part of and lights of the Orthodox Church. If you really followed them, you would be Orthodox.

No, they were part of the Catholic Church.

(Was that an overly-predictable Catholic thing to say? Wink  Embarrassed)
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« Reply #70 on: January 21, 2013, 03:34:21 PM »

(Was that an overly-predictable Catholic thing to say? Wink  Embarrassed)

I don't think so. Most Roman Catholics appear to say stranger things.
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« Reply #71 on: January 21, 2013, 04:44:38 PM »

Where does the bible say I can't desire my relatives?

In Leviticus 20, there is a large section having to do with "uncovering the nakedness" of various relatives: fathers' wife, son's wife, half-sister, an aunt or uncle's wife, etc. - all kinds of relational combinations possible in the multi-wife, extended families of that time.

Interesting also because, in the Pentateuch itself therefore, there is an ordering of sexual mores within the family that take for granted men having more than one wife: for example, the text doesn't say to not uncover the nakedness of your mother or sister; it refers to your father's wife or your father's daughter or your mother's daughter.

In that context, one's mother is his father's wife, but the woman whose nakednes he is told not to uncover is ALSO his father's wife (and perhaps his half-sister's mother), so therefore it is forbidden.

"Uncovering nakedness" can be variously interpreted as merely looking, or taking advantage of in some way, all the way to engaging in sex with the person. In other words, uncovering nakedness is a euphemism, just like "knowing" one's wife.




Leviticus has a lot of information people don't like, disregard, and attempt to persuade it actually says something it does not.  It’s difficult to have a real discussion with someone who does this.  It’s one of the many things which pushed me away from being protestant and toward Orthodoxy.  Orthodoxy doesn’t change no matter how much someone wants it to be different.  It is what it is and you either accept it or you don’t.
You mean like the Oriental Orthodox since the mid-fifth century?
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« Reply #72 on: January 21, 2013, 06:13:53 PM »

Where does the bible say I can't desire my relatives?

In Leviticus 20, there is a large section having to do with "uncovering the nakedness" of various relatives: fathers' wife, son's wife, half-sister, an aunt or uncle's wife, etc. - all kinds of relational combinations possible in the multi-wife, extended families of that time.

Interesting also because, in the Pentateuch itself therefore, there is an ordering of sexual mores within the family that take for granted men having more than one wife: for example, the text doesn't say to not uncover the nakedness of your mother or sister; it refers to your father's wife or your father's daughter or your mother's daughter.

In that context, one's mother is his father's wife, but the woman whose nakednes he is told not to uncover is ALSO his father's wife (and perhaps his half-sister's mother), so therefore it is forbidden.

"Uncovering nakedness" can be variously interpreted as merely looking, or taking advantage of in some way, all the way to engaging in sex with the person. In other words, uncovering nakedness is a euphemism, just like "knowing" one's wife.




Leviticus has a lot of information people don't like, disregard, and attempt to persuade it actually says something it does not.  It’s difficult to have a real discussion with someone who does this.  It’s one of the many things which pushed me away from being protestant and toward Orthodoxy.  Orthodoxy doesn’t change no matter how much someone wants it to be different.  It is what it is and you either accept it or you don’t.
You mean like the Oriental Orthodox since the mid-fifth century?

Huh?
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« Reply #73 on: January 21, 2013, 06:42:10 PM »

I've come to the same conclusions (somewhat) before that fornication is never explicitly condemned in the Bible, but the argument used against me is always that the Church says it's wrong, therefore it's wrong.
1 Corinthians 6:9
Know yee not that the vnrighteous shall not inherite the kingdome of God? Be not deceiued: neither fornicatours, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselues with mankinde,

This guy is hardcore.
Who?  St. Paul, SBC94, JamesR, or me?

You for using the actual KJV.

Thats what the OSB is using, at least for the time being.
Correction: The OSB uses the New King James Version.
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« Reply #74 on: January 21, 2013, 06:54:47 PM »

I've come to the same conclusions (somewhat) before that fornication is never explicitly condemned in the Bible, but the argument used against me is always that the Church says it's wrong, therefore it's wrong.

And the Bible says it's wrong too.

Prove it, actually refute the argument, no ones trying to justify sin, I'm trying to convict those who commit the sin of adding words to God's Word, The Bible.

If I'm wrong then please refute me, otherwise don't say anything out of presupposition. I'm pro Bible not tradition, tradition is man, God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit's) Word is in The Greeks.
This, my "friend" is another assertion you need to prove. You, like so many others before and after you, assert that Tradition is merely the work of man, but if you can't prove this, you have no leg to stand on in your arguments with the Church.

BTW, the Bible contains God's words, but only Jesus Christ is God's Word.
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« Reply #75 on: January 21, 2013, 06:57:33 PM »

It's talking about desire or lust. Don't try to justify sin by semantics.  police

So using The Bible and reading what it originally said without altercation from man, is trying to justify sin?... hypocritical if you ask me.
You have not the Holy Spirit to guide you in your separation from Tradition, so of course the letter of Scripture, every jot and tittle of it, becomes your final authority, because it's all you have to hang on to.
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« Reply #76 on: January 21, 2013, 07:48:41 PM »

I don't care what Protestants or orthodox's say, I care about what The Bible says.

This is one of my favorite canards from your ilk.

The Bible is true because the Bible says so!
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« Reply #77 on: January 21, 2013, 08:00:10 PM »

These sort of discussions are fruitless for the most part. If Protestants come on here, it would be better if they humble themselves and inquier what we actually believe. If there is a point of contention, you ask for clarification.

Those of us who are Orthodox on this board, don't care about Protestant polemics because we have already accepted them as false.

Come up with some new arguments, not ones that can be refuted by competent Sunday School children.

Protestant apologetics are awful these days, but considering the source, not surprising.

We need to learn to shake the dust off our feet.
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« Reply #78 on: January 21, 2013, 08:06:33 PM »

Funniest Protestant circular argument.

Protestant: The Bible is infallible!!!
Atheist: Prove it
Protestant: *quotes Bible passage* All scripture is breathed by God!!!11
Atheist: That's a circular argument
Protestant: But it's in the Bible!!
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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« Reply #79 on: January 21, 2013, 08:09:13 PM »

The sad part is that is used much too often. Head over to another Christian forum with an atheist involved and it's a lot of proof-texting by shooting from the hip
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« Reply #80 on: January 21, 2013, 08:17:02 PM »

I've come to the same conclusions (somewhat) before that fornication is never explicitly condemned in the Bible, but the argument used against me is always that the Church says it's wrong, therefore it's wrong.

And the Bible says it's wrong too.

Prove it, actually refute the argument, no ones trying to justify sin, I'm trying to convict those who commit the sin of adding words to God's Word, The Bible.

If I'm wrong then please refute me, otherwise don't say anything out of presupposition. I'm pro Bible not tradition, tradition is man, God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit's) Word is in The Greeks.
This, my "friend" is another assertion you need to prove. You, like so many others before and after you, assert that Tradition is merely the work of man, but if you can't prove this, you have no leg to stand on in your arguments with the Church.

BTW, the Bible contains God's words, but only Jesus Christ is God's Word.
There are no liturgical rubrics in the Bible, Peter!
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« Reply #81 on: January 21, 2013, 11:35:50 PM »

I don't care what Protestants or orthodox's say, I care about what The Bible says. The Bible and Early Church Fathers are the authority,

You contradict yourself in this statement.

Orthodox "church" isn't the Early Church Fathers.

A mistake for certain on your part.
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« Reply #82 on: January 21, 2013, 11:37:16 PM »

Where does the bible say I can't desire my relatives?

In Leviticus 20, there is a large section having to do with "uncovering the nakedness" of various relatives: fathers' wife, son's wife, half-sister, an aunt or uncle's wife, etc. - all kinds of relational combinations possible in the multi-wife, extended families of that time.

Interesting also because, in the Pentateuch itself therefore, there is an ordering of sexual mores within the family that take for granted men having more than one wife: for example, the text doesn't say to not uncover the nakedness of your mother or sister; it refers to your father's wife or your father's daughter or your mother's daughter.

In that context, one's mother is his father's wife, but the woman whose nakednes he is told not to uncover is ALSO his father's wife (and perhaps his half-sister's mother), so therefore it is forbidden.

"Uncovering nakedness" can be variously interpreted as merely looking, or taking advantage of in some way, all the way to engaging in sex with the person. In other words, uncovering nakedness is a euphemism, just like "knowing" one's wife.




Leviticus has a lot of information people don't like, disregard, and attempt to persuade it actually says something it does not.  It’s difficult to have a real discussion with someone who does this.  It’s one of the many things which pushed me away from being protestant and toward Orthodoxy.  Orthodoxy doesn’t change no matter how much someone wants it to be different.  It is what it is and you either accept it or you don’t.
You mean like the Oriental Orthodox since the mid-fifth century?
No
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« Reply #83 on: January 21, 2013, 11:39:25 PM »

I've come to the same conclusions (somewhat) before that fornication is never explicitly condemned in the Bible, but the argument used against me is always that the Church says it's wrong, therefore it's wrong.
1 Corinthians 6:9
Know yee not that the vnrighteous shall not inherite the kingdome of God? Be not deceiued: neither fornicatours, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselues with mankinde,

This guy is hardcore.
Who?  St. Paul, SBC94, JamesR, or me?

You for using the actual KJV.

Thats what the OSB is using, at least for the time being.
Correction: The OSB uses the New King James Version.
Really?  Oops. Embarrassed
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« Reply #84 on: January 21, 2013, 11:55:59 PM »

I've come to the same conclusions (somewhat) before that fornication is never explicitly condemned in the Bible, but the argument used against me is always that the Church says it's wrong, therefore it's wrong.

And the Bible says it's wrong too.

Prove it, actually refute the argument, no ones trying to justify sin, I'm trying to convict those who commit the sin of adding words to God's Word, The Bible.

If I'm wrong then please refute me, otherwise don't say anything out of presupposition. I'm pro Bible not tradition, tradition is man, God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit's) Word is in The Greeks.
This, my "friend" is another assertion you need to prove. You, like so many others before and after you, assert that Tradition is merely the work of man, but if you can't prove this, you have no leg to stand on in your arguments with the Church.

BTW, the Bible contains God's words, but only Jesus Christ is God's Word.


One example of that is something I learned from my favorite religious professor at church.  Thinking about Islam and the four wives at one time limit, not counting slave girls, I asked about monogamy, and where in the Bible it states that polygamy is not acceptable.   The Old Testament has polygamy, and I really couldn't think of anywhere the New Testament explicitly states that polygamy is no longer acceptable.   

He said that is one of the big problems with Sola Scriptura, that there isn't anywhere that states and man can have only one wife, so officially there isn't an argument for monogamy. 

So, my rhetorical questions are, how then do 'scripture only' people argue for monogamy?  Was forcing the Mormons to give up polygamy only a state issue? 



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« Reply #85 on: January 22, 2013, 12:27:58 AM »

I've come to the same conclusions (somewhat) before that fornication is never explicitly condemned in the Bible, but the argument used against me is always that the Church says it's wrong, therefore it's wrong.
1 Corinthians 6:9
Know yee not that the vnrighteous shall not inherite the kingdome of God? Be not deceiued: neither fornicatours, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselues with mankinde,

This guy is hardcore.
Who?  St. Paul, SBC94, JamesR, or me?

You for using the actual KJV.

Thats what the OSB is using, at least for the time being.
Correction: The OSB uses the New King James Version.
Ugh, THAT heresy...
It seems like every version after the 1611/1613 KJV/AV has gone into a downward spiral of evangelical bias and overtly secular translations which distort the native tongues of Hebrew and Greek (I don't speak Greek so I have to go by what I'm told for that one)
Most of the mistakes in the 1613 and back are honest mistakes (like the Jehovah phenomenon), even in the Puritan 1599 Geneva Bible and the Geneva series in general, they kept their Protestant bias to marginal notes...
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« Reply #86 on: January 22, 2013, 02:20:21 AM »

I've come to the same conclusions (somewhat) before that fornication is never explicitly condemned in the Bible, but the argument used against me is always that the Church says it's wrong, therefore it's wrong.
1 Corinthians 6:9
Know yee not that the vnrighteous shall not inherite the kingdome of God? Be not deceiued: neither fornicatours, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselues with mankinde,

This guy is hardcore.
Who?  St. Paul, SBC94, JamesR, or me?

You for using the actual KJV.

Thats what the OSB is using, at least for the time being.
Correction: The OSB uses the New King James Version.
Ugh, THAT heresy...
What heresy? Huh

It seems like every version after the 1611/1613 KJV/AV has gone into a downward spiral of evangelical bias and overtly secular translations which distort the native tongues of Hebrew and Greek (I don't speak Greek so I have to go by what I'm told for that one)
Most of the mistakes in the 1613 and back are honest mistakes (like the Jehovah phenomenon), even in the Puritan 1599 Geneva Bible and the Geneva series in general, they kept their Protestant bias to marginal notes...
But how is the NKJV specifically heretical? You don't say anything about this at all.
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« Reply #87 on: January 22, 2013, 02:23:29 AM »

I don't care what Protestants or orthodox's say, I care about what The Bible says. The Bible and Early Church Fathers are the authority,

You contradict yourself in this statement.

Orthodox "church" isn't the Early Church Fathers.
It is our belief that the Church has kept the apostolic faith, which is also the faith of the Early Church Fathers.

It's funny, actually. I distinctly remember that you said in one of your posts that you were interested in Orthodoxy, however, I have not seen anything from you that suggests that you have any wish to do so. I haven't seen any questions, no inquiry, no interest whatsoever, only statements, of whom, many have been so cryptic that several people in here(including myself) have had a very hard time figuring out, what exactly you are talking about. What do you even know about Orthodoxy, that gives the above statement any basis?

I've come to accept that Truth can only be found in The Bible, and what The Early Church Fathers got from The Bible.

For example the Early Church Fathers would want one to keep celibate, however God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit is actually against that,

The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him." - Genesis 2:18

So even though The Early Church Fathers can be good in some areas, sometimes they are in error.

So what we must rely on is the original greek manuscripts.

it has also come to my attention that no church today can be the true church, The True Church is just those who have Faith In Christ, there no longer exist an official Church building due to different denominations, even a non-denominational church would be in error,

Tradition isn't faith, tradition is tradition and mostly comes from man(such as don't look at a woman, or premartial sex) things the pharisees would do.

things like lusting after a woman, premartial sex, etc aren't sins, God(Jesus Christ) warned us of this,

Luke 11:46 - Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.


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« Reply #88 on: January 22, 2013, 02:25:26 AM »

I don't care what Protestants or orthodox's say, I care about what The Bible says. The Bible and Early Church Fathers are the authority,

You contradict yourself in this statement.

Orthodox "church" isn't the Early Church Fathers.
It is our belief that the Church has kept the apostolic faith, which is also the faith of the Early Church Fathers.

It's funny, actually. I distinctly remember that you said in one of your posts that you were interested in Orthodoxy, however, I have not seen anything from you that suggests that you have any wish to do so. I haven't seen any questions, no inquiry, no interest whatsoever, only statements, of whom, many have been so cryptic that several people in here(including myself) have had a very hard time figuring out, what exactly you are talking about. What do you even know about Orthodoxy, that gives the above statement any basis?

I've come to accept that Truth can only be found in The Bible, and what The Early Church Fathers got from The Bible.

For example the Early Church Fathers would want one to keep celibate, however God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit is actually against that,

The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him." - Genesis 2:18

So even though The Early Church Fathers can be good in some areas, sometimes they are in error.

So what we must rely on is the original greek manuscripts.

it has also come to my attention that no church today can be the true church, The True Church is just those who have Faith In Christ, there no longer exist an official Church building due to different denominations, even a non-denominational church would be in error,

Tradition isn't faith, tradition is tradition and mostly comes from man(such as don't look at a woman, or premartial sex) things the pharisees would do.

things like lusting after a woman, premartial sex, etc aren't sins, God(Jesus Christ) warned us of this,

Luke 11:46 - Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.
You're still making assertions and expecting us to take you seriously, even though you won't lift a finger to prove your assertions true from sources other than more of your own assertions.
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« Reply #89 on: January 22, 2013, 03:02:47 AM »

I've come to accept that Truth can only be found in The Bible, and what The Early Church Fathers got from The Bible.

There is a huge problem with that statement.  Just how many of the EFC's actually held a bible in their hands?
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