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Author Topic: True 10 Commandments, looking at a woman is not a sin, Slavery was condemned  (Read 3704 times) Average Rating: 0
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SavedByChrist94
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« on: January 20, 2013, 03:39:27 AM »

After studying and finding that Matthew 5:27-28 Actually Says, "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman in order to covet her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

In reference to The 10 Commandments in which the Septuagint Exodus 20:17 uses the same word( epithumeó) in Jesus Christ did in Matthew 5:27-28, which means He referred to The 10th Commandment and Never changed the law and looking at a woman isn't a sin.

Courtesy Jason Staples - http://www.jasonstaples.com/blog/2009/most-misinterpreted-bible-passages-1-matthew-527-28-18

and that Covet aka Hebrew Chamad can mean take in The Tenth Commandment of the 10th Commandment

And since Deuteronomy 5:21 has Hebrew Avah which means desire AFTER Chamad(so most likely 2 different meanings, otherwise I would assume different words would be used)

and Since ganab in Thou Shall Not Steal 8th Commandment can mean kidnap

And since Exodus 21-22 is an explanation of the law which never mentions having a desire for another's property as sin, but actually taking ones property, and mentions Kidnapping(and the penalty for it is death)

It comes to me as a conclusion that these are The Real Ten Commandments:

1, You shall have no other gods before Yahweh(The True God, The Trinity of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)
2, You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
3, Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy
4, You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
5, Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.
6, You shall not murder.
7, You shall not commit adultery.
8, You shall not Kidnap
9, You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
10, “You shall not take(steal) your neighbor’s house. You shall not take(steal) your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

And this has alot of implications,
#1 The Bible/God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) NEVER condoned slavery
#2 looking at a woman or desiring any woman(not of your relatives of course) isn't sin, it is sin to want to steal another woman
#3 Jesus Christ Commandments never condemned any unintentional feelings as sin(looking a woman, wishing you had what another did(modern day covet definition) but condemned doing evil, stealing, wrong anger, and greed.

Therefore whoever says desiring a woman, looking at a woman, or desiring a woman sexually adds to The Law of God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)
Whoever says The Bible condones slavery is a liar, as forced slavery is a form of kidnap.
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« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2013, 03:53:55 AM »

It's talking about desire or lust. Don't try to justify sin by semantics.  police
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 03:54:13 AM by Asteriktos » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2013, 04:04:38 AM »

It's talking about desire or lust. Don't try to justify sin by semantics.  police

No kidding, right?  Such is the way of "modernized" Christianity and making it fit what man wants it to say.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 04:07:51 AM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2013, 04:19:03 AM »

I've come to the same conclusions (somewhat) before that fornication is never explicitly condemned in the Bible, but the argument used against me is always that the Church says it's wrong, therefore it's wrong.
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« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2013, 04:22:53 AM »

I've come to the same conclusions (somewhat) before that fornication is never explicitly condemned in the Bible, but the argument used against me is always that the Church says it's wrong, therefore it's wrong.

And the Bible says it's wrong too.
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« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2013, 07:19:28 AM »

I've come to the same conclusions (somewhat) before that fornication is never explicitly condemned in the Bible, but the argument used against me is always that the Church says it's wrong, therefore it's wrong.

Can't argue with that logic, can you?  If you do, you no longer share "orthodox" views...  Shocked
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« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2013, 07:53:20 AM »

I've come to the same conclusions (somewhat) before that fornication is never explicitly condemned in the Bible, but the argument used against me is always that the Church says it's wrong, therefore it's wrong.

And the Bible says it's wrong too.

Prove it, actually refute the argument, no ones trying to justify sin, I'm trying to convict those who commit the sin of adding words to God's Word, The Bible.

If I'm wrong then please refute me, otherwise don't say anything out of presupposition. I'm pro Bible not tradition, tradition is man, God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit's) Word is in The Greeks.
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« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2013, 07:53:20 AM »

It's talking about desire or lust. Don't try to justify sin by semantics.  police

So using The Bible and reading what it originally said without altercation from man, is trying to justify sin?... hypocritical if you ask me.
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« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2013, 08:35:27 AM »

Where does the bible say I can't desire my relatives?
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« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2013, 08:38:53 AM »

I've come to the same conclusions (somewhat) before that fornication is never explicitly condemned in the Bible, but the argument used against me is always that the Church says it's wrong, therefore it's wrong.

And the Bible says it's wrong too.

Prove it, actually refute the argument, no ones trying to justify sin, I'm trying to convict those who commit the sin of adding words to God's Word, The Bible.

If I'm wrong then please refute me, otherwise don't say anything out of presupposition. I'm pro Bible not tradition, tradition is man, God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit's) Word is in The Greeks.

Been there, done that.  I suggest you read the scriptures.
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« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2013, 08:44:00 AM »

Sorry SBC94, but I have a hard time, understanding your post. Are you saying that we are allowed to look lustfully at a woman?
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« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2013, 08:55:45 AM »

My suspicion is he doesn’t know what he is saying.  His posts are riddled with mistakes.  Not necessarily a bad thing, we all make mistakes.  The problem is he is too haughty and contentious to learn anything and this, at such a young age, invites disaster.
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« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2013, 11:15:46 AM »

This is the problem with Sola Scriptura. It's all about linguistic gymnastics to find out what the Bible "really says." Turns out you can make the Bible say a lot of things. This is why the living community of God, which has produced and safeguarded the scriptures, is the guarantor of it's correct interpretation. 

I've often thought of the Scriptures like a family photo album that has been passed down from generation to generation. It stays in the family and the inheritors receive it along with all of the stories and anecdotes that give the photos context and their true interpretation. What Sola Scripturists do is remove the album from it's setting (instead of entering into the family through marriage, etc.) and then base everything upon the photos themselves, thinking that if they scrutinize them closely enough, they'll be able to piece the whole family story together.

I'm sure the analogy falls apart and is quite poor at times, but I've found it useful in conversations with many protestants.
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« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2013, 11:56:57 AM »

I've come to the same conclusions (somewhat) before that fornication is never explicitly condemned in the Bible, but the argument used against me is always that the Church says it's wrong, therefore it's wrong.

And the Bible says it's wrong too.

Prove it, actually refute the argument, no ones trying to justify sin, I'm trying to convict those who commit the sin of adding words to God's Word, The Bible.

If I'm wrong then please refute me, otherwise don't say anything out of presupposition. I'm pro Bible not tradition, tradition is man, God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit's) Word is in The Greeks.

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2013, 12:34:08 PM »

God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit's) Word is in The Greeks.

Do you even read Greek? I certainly hope that English isn't your first language because your posts are hardly intelligable.

After studying and finding that Matthew 5:27-28 Actually Says, "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman in order to covet her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

In reference to The 10 Commandments in which the Septuagint Exodus 20:17 uses the same word( epithumeó) in Jesus Christ did in Matthew 5:27-28, which means He referred to The 10th Commandment and Never changed the law and looking at a woman isn't a sin.


Christ did indeed refer to it, but he added another precept to it. That we shouldn't even look lustfully to a woman.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 12:36:39 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2013, 01:20:22 PM »

I've come to the same conclusions (somewhat) before that fornication is never explicitly condemned in the Bible, but the argument used against me is always that the Church says it's wrong, therefore it's wrong.
1 Corinthians 6:9
Know yee not that the vnrighteous shall not inherite the kingdome of God? Be not deceiued: neither fornicatours, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselues with mankinde,
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« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2013, 01:22:39 PM »

And to the OP

I have a question if you had a daughter, would you want people looking at her with lust
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« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2013, 04:32:22 PM »

And may I ask what you are doing here?  If you want to learn about Orthodoxy, shut up and listen.  If you want to spread your Protestant bull droppings, get lost.


I've come to the same conclusions (somewhat) before that fornication is never explicitly condemned in the Bible, but the argument used against me is always that the Church says it's wrong, therefore it's wrong.

And the Bible says it's wrong too.

Prove it, actually refute the argument, no ones trying to justify sin, I'm trying to convict those who commit the sin of adding words to God's Word, The Bible.

If I'm wrong then please refute me, otherwise don't say anything out of presupposition. I'm pro Bible not tradition, tradition is man, God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit's) Word is in The Greeks.
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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
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« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2013, 04:37:40 PM »

And may I ask what you are doing here?  If you want to learn about Orthodoxy, shut up and listen.  If you want to spread your Protestant bull droppings, get lost.


I've come to the same conclusions (somewhat) before that fornication is never explicitly condemned in the Bible, but the argument used against me is always that the Church says it's wrong, therefore it's wrong.

And the Bible says it's wrong too.

Prove it, actually refute the argument, no ones trying to justify sin, I'm trying to convict those who commit the sin of adding words to God's Word, The Bible.

If I'm wrong then please refute me, otherwise don't say anything out of presupposition. I'm pro Bible not tradition, tradition is man, God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit's) Word is in The Greeks.

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« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2013, 04:39:11 PM »

I love how anti-ecumenical you Serbs are Smiley

Punch is not a Serb.
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« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2013, 04:41:26 PM »

And may I ask what you are doing here?  If you want to learn about Orthodoxy, shut up and listen.  If you want to spread your Protestant bull droppings, get lost.
Using the velvet gloves as always.

I suspect it won't be long now before SBC starts calling Punch an atheist.
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« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2013, 04:51:55 PM »

And may I ask what you are doing here?  If you want to learn about Orthodoxy, shut up and listen.  If you want to spread your Protestant bull droppings, get lost.
Using the velvet gloves as always.

I suspect it won't be long now before SBC starts calling Punch an atheist.

And not too much longer after that that he is banned or disappears from the forum entirely like so many others.
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« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2013, 04:59:33 PM »

And may I ask what you are doing here?  If you want to learn about Orthodoxy, shut up and listen.  If you want to spread your Protestant bull droppings, get lost.
Using the velvet gloves as always.

I suspect it won't be long now before SBC starts calling Punch an atheist.

And not too much longer after that that he is banned or disappears from the forum entirely like so many others.

Either would be very welcome.  Wink
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« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2013, 05:09:09 PM »

I won’t wade into the waters of if fornication/pornea/all that is a sin. There’s really nothing to add to that discussion, which is a neverending snake eating its own tail.

But to get back on topic — while the OP shows that he doesn’t really know how translators work, I’ll leave that alone. Even if the semantic argument about coveting is correct, I don’t see how the thrust of that that passage is substantively changed. In the context of the discussion (adultery), there’s only a few ways to really understand looking at a woman with “covetousness,” and the common understanding falls well within that application.
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« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2013, 07:19:06 PM »

I've come to the same conclusions (somewhat) before that fornication is never explicitly condemned in the Bible, but the argument used against me is always that the Church says it's wrong, therefore it's wrong.
1 Corinthians 6:9
Know yee not that the vnrighteous shall not inherite the kingdome of God? Be not deceiued: neither fornicatours, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselues with mankinde,

Strongs Concordance

pornos: a fornicator
Original Word: πόρνος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: pornos
Phonetic Spelling: (por'-nos)
Short Definition: a fornicator
Definition: a fornicator, man who prostitutes himself.

"There are more passages in the New Testament that teachers twist to try to condemn premarital sex. For instance, take the multiple verses that instruct Christians to avoid "sexual immorality." The New Testament was written in Greek, and the word that refers to "sexual immorality" in those passages is the Greek word "porneia." Click here to see the definition of porneia as "illicit sexual intercourse" and all the passages where it is used. Some English translations translate "porneia" as "fornication," a word that often means, "sex before marriage." However, the most accurate translations translate "porneia" into "sexual immorality," a more general phrase. This difference is due to the fact that some translators follow their cultural traditions instead of God's Word. For instance, see Isaiah 64:6. In many English Bibles, the Hebrew words there are translated "filthy rags." That is an intentional mis-translation. The Hebrew word actually means, "menstrual rags." The translators behind the Bibles that say "filthy rags" respected their cultures' rules of etiquette more than God's Word. They mistranslated Scripture intentionally because they thought God's word was too gross or impolite. Similarly, the Greek word "porneia" is a general word referring to "sexual immorality" generally and not "fornication" specifically. This fact causes us to have to search the Scriptures if we want to know what sex, exactly, is "immoral" and what sex is not. And, again, while the Scriptures repeatedly call all sorts of sexual activities sin, the Scriptures never once call premarital sex a sin."

Courtesy Acts420 - http://www.unc.edu/~jasondm/sex.html
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« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2013, 07:19:06 PM »

And may I ask what you are doing here?  If you want to learn about Orthodoxy, shut up and listen.  If you want to spread your Protestant bull droppings, get lost.


I've come to the same conclusions (somewhat) before that fornication is never explicitly condemned in the Bible, but the argument used against me is always that the Church says it's wrong, therefore it's wrong.

And the Bible says it's wrong too.

Prove it, actually refute the argument, no ones trying to justify sin, I'm trying to convict those who commit the sin of adding words to God's Word, The Bible.

If I'm wrong then please refute me, otherwise don't say anything out of presupposition. I'm pro Bible not tradition, tradition is man, God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit's) Word is in The Greeks.

I don't care what Protestants or orthodox's say, I care about what The Bible says. The Bible and Early Church Fathers are the authority, not the modern day "church". in order for The orthodox church to teach proper doctrine they must stick to Originals, not man made traditions,

Brother Paul warned us about this,

Galatians 1:6-7 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the Gospel of Christ.
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« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2013, 07:19:31 PM »

Everybody in this thread, proving for a Fact, that looking lustfully isn't a sin, if it was we wouldn't be here,

Matthew 5:27–28: Ἠκούσατε ὅτι ἐρρέθη· οὐ μοιχεύσεις. ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ βλέπων γυναῖκα πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ.


Key here is this part: πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι

transliteration, pros to epithumesai

pros to comes BEFORE epithumesai

so now just like these verses, where it would be rendered IN ORDER TO,

“Beware of practicing your righteousness before men in order to be noticed by them.” (Matt 6:1)

Original Greek - Προσέχετε [a]δὲ τὴν δικαιοσύνην ὑμῶν μὴ ποιεῖν ἔμπροσθεν τῶν ἀνθρώπων πρὸς τὸ θεαθῆναι αὐτοῖς· εἰ δὲ μή γε, μισθὸν οὐκ ἔχετε παρὰ τῷ πατρὶ ὑμῶν τῷ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.


“… First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles in order to burn them up ….” (Matt 13:30)

Original Greek, 30 ἄφετε συναυξάνεσθαι ἀμφότερα [a]μέχρι τοῦ θερισμοῦ· καὶ ἐν καιρῷ τοῦ θερισμοῦ ἐρῶ τοῖς θερισταῖς· Συλλέξατε πρῶτον τὰ ζιζάνια καὶ δήσατε αὐτὰ εἰς δέσμας πρὸς τὸ κατακαῦσαι αὐτά, τὸν δὲ σῖτον συναγάγετε εἰς τὴν ἀποθήκην μου.

“But they do all their deeds in order to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments.” (Matt 23:5)

Original Greek - 5 πάντα δὲ τὰ ἔργα αὐτῶν ποιοῦσιν πρὸς τὸ θεαθῆναι τοῖς ἀνθρώποις· πλατύνουσι [a]γὰρ τὰ φυλακτήρια αὐτῶν καὶ μεγαλύνουσι τὰ κράσπεδα,


“For when she poured this perfume on my body, she did it in order to prepare me for burial.” (Matt 26:12)

Original Greek - 12 βαλοῦσα γὰρ αὕτη τὸ μύρον τοῦτο ἐπὶ τοῦ σώματός μου πρὸς τὸ ἐνταφιάσαι με ἐποίησεν.

All from Matthew.

So, Matthew 5:27-28 can be either of the following from the definition of epithumesai(which is verb), something you do, the one making no sense is void.

Here we go,

"You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman in order to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Lust is a desire, not an action even diliberate lust isn't doing something, an action is something you do, whoever looks at a woman in order to, means in order to do something, do what? lust is an emotion, a desire, etc, not an action, so this definition is null and void. if Jesus Christ meant lusting after a woman was a sin, then He would have said, whoever looks at a woman AND lust, etc, but He said whoever looks at a woman IN ORDER TO, so it's to do something, added with epithumesai is a verb, an action.

Since pros to makes this an action,  whether you like it or not, lust long for, and set the heart upon definitions are out.

Now, the last definition would be Covet, lets see,

Matthew 5:27-28 - You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman in order to covet her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Added with the fact that the word for covet and woman/wife are the same in Exodus 20:17(Septuagint)

οὐκ ἐπιθυμήσεις τὴν γυναῖκα τοῦ πλησίον σου. οὐκ ἐπιθυμήσεις τὴν οἰκίαν τοῦ πλησίον σου οὔτε τὸν ἀγρὸν αὐτοῦ οὔτε τὸν παῖδα αὐτοῦ οὔτε τὴν παιδίσκην αὐτοῦ οὔτε τοῦ βοὸς αὐτοῦ οὔτε τοῦ ὑποζυγίου αὐτοῦ οὔτε παντὸς κτήνους αὐτοῦ οὔτε ὅσα τῷ πλησίον σού ἐστιν. (Ex 20:17 LXX)

Added with looks at a woman in order to.

The intent of the look for for a purpose, the purpose of what? in order to do what? and that in order to do is epithumesai(verb) her

So it should be rendered,

You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a married woman(as same word for woman/wife is used in Septuagint version of 10th Commandment) with the intention(due to looking at a woman in order to epithumesai(verb) her) of taking her(stealing her from the husband or cheating with her due to 10th Commandment) has already committed adultery(Sex between married person and someone outside of relationship, aka cheating) with her in his heart.


So Jesus Christ is just retelling the law(Thou Shall Not Commit Adultery and 10th Commandment), He never added to The Law, The Law He originally gave at The Exodus was Fine.

Now with this fact, that covet is an action and not a desire and as proven by http://Goddidntsaythat.com/2011/03/02/the-ten-commandments-dont-forbid-coveting/

Covet in The 10 Commandments means take.

why? read the link and the fact that The 8th Commandment "Thou Shall Not Steal" uses the word ganab which can mean Kidnap

God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) gave commandments, prohibitions, on actions, which fits the entire context, desire is a natural thing that can BECOME sin, want proof?

James 1:15 - Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Desire can cause sin but isn't sin.

Therefore God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) condemned slavery and sexually desiring a woman isn't a sin,

Proverbs 5:18-19 Let your fountain be blessed, and rejoice in the wife of your youth, a lovely deer, a graceful doe. Let her breasts fill you at all times with delight; be intoxicated always in her love

Song of Solomon 7:7-8

Your stature is like a palm tree, and your breasts are like its clusters. I say I will climb the palm tree and lay hold of its fruit. Oh may your breasts be like clusters of the vine, and the scent of your breath like apples,

Song of Solomon 8:10
I was a wall, and my breasts were like towers; then I was in his eyes as one who finds peace.

The True 10 Commandments are,

1, You shall have no other gods before Yahweh(The True God, The Trinity of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)
2, You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
3, Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy
4, You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
5, Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.
6, You shall not murder.
7, You shall not commit adultery.
8, You shall not Kidnap
9, You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
10, “You shall not take(steal) your neighbor’s house. You shall not take(steal) your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

and Matthew 5:27-28 is, "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a married woman with the intention of taking her(stealing her from the husband or cheating with her) has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Basically, Jesus Christ is saying, you know to not commit adultery, do not even plan or intend on taking(or cheating) with a woman, because it's as if you already did so.

Which fits well with The Rest of The Sermon of The Mount because remember,

Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Jesus Christ never abolished or added any laws, The laws He gave at the exodus were fine.

For example on Oaths

Matthew 5:33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.[g]

Jesus Christ was just telling us how to accomplish the law, so for adultery(cheating, unfaithfulness, can only be committed by a married person and someone else(aka cheating) He said don't even plan to do it(like King David remember)

There ya go.
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« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2013, 07:51:36 PM »

God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit's) Word is in The Greeks.

Do you even read Greek? I certainly hope that English isn't your first language because your posts are hardly intelligable.

After studying and finding that Matthew 5:27-28 Actually Says, "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman in order to covet her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

In reference to The 10 Commandments in which the Septuagint Exodus 20:17 uses the same word( epithumeó) in Jesus Christ did in Matthew 5:27-28, which means He referred to The 10th Commandment and Never changed the law and looking at a woman isn't a sin.


Christ did indeed refer to it, but he added another precept to it. That we shouldn't even look lustfully to a woman.

Biblical Adultery is cheating, and that is a Fact no matter how much man wants to add to it, therefore whatever He said must pertain to that, looking at a woman sexually(the greek word has nothing to do with that either) has nothing to do with say, a single man sexually desiring a woman.

So obviously The Lord Jesus Christ says don't even intend to commit adultery with a married person.
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« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2013, 07:51:36 PM »

My suspicion is he doesn’t know what he is saying.  His posts are riddled with mistakes.  Not necessarily a bad thing, we all make mistakes.  The problem is he is too haughty and contentious to learn anything and this, at such a young age, invites disaster.

 1 Timothy 4

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

6 If you point these things out to the brothers and sisters,[a] you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7 Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. 8 For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come. 9 This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance. 10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

11 Command and teach these things. 12 Don’t let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity. 13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching. 14 Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through prophecy when the body of elders laid their hands on you.

15 Be diligent in these matters; give yourself wholly to them, so that everyone may see your progress. 16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
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« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2013, 07:51:36 PM »

I won’t wade into the waters of if fornication/pornea/all that is a sin. There’s really nothing to add to that discussion, which is a neverending snake eating its own tail.

But to get back on topic — while the OP shows that he doesn’t really know how translators work, I’ll leave that alone. Even if the semantic argument about coveting is correct, I don’t see how the thrust of that that passage is substantively changed. In the context of the discussion (adultery), there’s only a few ways to really understand looking at a woman with “covetousness,” and the common understanding falls well within that application.


If I don't know then please don't yap, but do a Greek  Exegesis Translation like I did, otherwise your just making noise.
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« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2013, 08:50:17 PM »

Okay I disagree with all of your Protestant "traditions of man" crap that's been overdone millions of times, but, you made a great point with Strong's concordance and fornication--I've noticed that on my own as well in the past but never really got a satisfactory answer to it. On a more positive note though, I emailed my Priest about it opposed to apostatizing or becoming my own internet theologian.
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« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2013, 09:01:42 PM »

but whoa whoa whoa check this,

ἡ δὲ εὐαγγέλιος φωνὴ ἐπιτατικώτερον διδάσκει περὶ ἁγνείας λέγουσα· “Πᾶς ὁ ἰδὼν γυναῖκα ἀλλοτρίαν πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ. καὶ ὁ γαμῶν” - Theophilus to Autolycus, B III, Ch 3, quoting Mt 5:28

Hmm, I wonder what ἀλλοτρίαν means...

belonging to another person, belonging to others, foreign, strange.
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« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2013, 09:01:42 PM »

Okay I disagree with all of your Protestant "traditions of man" crap that's been overdone millions of times, but, you made a great point with Strong's concordance and fornication--I've noticed that on my own as well in the past but never really got a satisfactory answer to it. On a more positive note though, I emailed my Priest about it opposed to apostatizing or becoming my own internet theologian.

That's funny because I see protestant as a tradition of man with it's Faith Alone and penal substitution false doctrines.

but look a my previous post on  Theophilus to Autolycus Early Church Father Document there that says Belongth to Another is apart of Matthew 5:27-28, so sexually lusting for a woman isn't a sin, Especially to The Orthodox Church and if they object then they ignore what Theophilus said and go against Early Church Fathers(who are along with The Bible valid, as they were the Early Church Fathers, no one can corrupt things that fast.)
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« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2013, 09:10:19 PM »

Sorry SBC94, but I have a hard time, understanding your post. Are you saying that we are allowed to look lustfully at a woman?

me too, wish there was a direct answer without all the Greek or so and so said this and that thingy.
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« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2013, 09:18:39 PM »

I've come to the same conclusions (somewhat) before that fornication is never explicitly condemned in the Bible, but the argument used against me is always that the Church says it's wrong, therefore it's wrong.
1 Corinthians 6:9
Know yee not that the vnrighteous shall not inherite the kingdome of God? Be not deceiued: neither fornicatours, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselues with mankinde,

Strongs Concordance

pornos: a fornicator
Original Word: πόρνος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: pornos
Phonetic Spelling: (por'-nos)
Short Definition: a fornicator
Definition: a fornicator, man who prostitutes himself.

"There are more passages in the New Testament that teachers twist to try to condemn premarital sex. For instance, take the multiple verses that instruct Christians to avoid "sexual immorality." The New Testament was written in Greek, and the word that refers to "sexual immorality" in those passages is the Greek word "porneia." Click here to see the definition of porneia as "illicit sexual intercourse" and all the passages where it is used. Some English translations translate "porneia" as "fornication," a word that often means, "sex before marriage." However, the most accurate translations translate "porneia" into "sexual immorality," a more general phrase. This difference is due to the fact that some translators follow their cultural traditions instead of God's Word. For instance, see Isaiah 64:6. In many English Bibles, the Hebrew words there are translated "filthy rags." That is an intentional mis-translation. The Hebrew word actually means, "menstrual rags." The translators behind the Bibles that say "filthy rags" respected their cultures' rules of etiquette more than God's Word. They mistranslated Scripture intentionally because they thought God's word was too gross or impolite. Similarly, the Greek word "porneia" is a general word referring to "sexual immorality" generally and not "fornication" specifically. This fact causes us to have to search the Scriptures if we want to know what sex, exactly, is "immoral" and what sex is not. And, again, while the Scriptures repeatedly call all sorts of sexual activities sin, the Scriptures never once call premarital sex a sin."

Courtesy Acts420 - http://www.unc.edu/~jasondm/sex.html
Premarital sex was a sin punishable by death...
13 ¶ If any man take a wife, and go in vnto her, and hate her,

14 And giue occasions of speach against her, and bring vp an euill name vpon her, and say, I tooke this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a mayd:

15 Then shal the father of the damosell, and her mother take, and bring forth the tokens of the damosels virginitie, vnto the Elders of the citie in the gate.

16 And the damosels father shall say vnto the Elders, I gaue my daughter vnto this man to wife, & he hateth her:

17 And loe, he hath giuen occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid: and yet these are the tokens of my daughters virginity; and they shall spread the cloth before the Elders of the citie.

18 And the Elders of that citie shall take that man, and chastise him.

19 And they shall amearse him in an hundred shekels of siluer, and giue them vnto the father of the damosell, because he hath brought vp an euill name vpon a virgine of Israel: and she shall be his wife, hee may not put her away all his dayes.

20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginitie be not found for the damosel:

21 Then they shall bring out the damosell to the doore of her fathers house, and the men of her city shal stone her with stones that she die, because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her fathers house: so shalt thou put euill away from among you.
-Deuteronomy 22:13-21
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« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2013, 09:19:05 PM »

Everybody in this thread, proving for a Fact, that looking lustfully isn't a sin, if it was we wouldn't be here,

Matthew 5:27–28: Ἠκούσατε ὅτι ἐρρέθη· οὐ μοιχεύσεις. ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ βλέπων γυναῖκα πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ.


Key here is this part: πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι

transliteration, pros to epithumesai

pros to comes BEFORE epithumesai

so now just like these verses, where it would be rendered IN ORDER TO,

“Beware of practicing your righteousness before men in order to be noticed by them.” (Matt 6:1)

Original Greek - Προσέχετε [a]δὲ τὴν δικαιοσύνην ὑμῶν μὴ ποιεῖν ἔμπροσθεν τῶν ἀνθρώπων πρὸς τὸ θεαθῆναι αὐτοῖς· εἰ δὲ μή γε, μισθὸν οὐκ ἔχετε παρὰ τῷ πατρὶ ὑμῶν τῷ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.


“… First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles in order to burn them up ….” (Matt 13:30)

Original Greek, 30 ἄφετε συναυξάνεσθαι ἀμφότερα [a]μέχρι τοῦ θερισμοῦ· καὶ ἐν καιρῷ τοῦ θερισμοῦ ἐρῶ τοῖς θερισταῖς· Συλλέξατε πρῶτον τὰ ζιζάνια καὶ δήσατε αὐτὰ εἰς δέσμας πρὸς τὸ κατακαῦσαι αὐτά, τὸν δὲ σῖτον συναγάγετε εἰς τὴν ἀποθήκην μου.

“But they do all their deeds in order to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments.” (Matt 23:5)

Original Greek - 5 πάντα δὲ τὰ ἔργα αὐτῶν ποιοῦσιν πρὸς τὸ θεαθῆναι τοῖς ἀνθρώποις· πλατύνουσι [a]γὰρ τὰ φυλακτήρια αὐτῶν καὶ μεγαλύνουσι τὰ κράσπεδα,


“For when she poured this perfume on my body, she did it in order to prepare me for burial.” (Matt 26:12)

Original Greek - 12 βαλοῦσα γὰρ αὕτη τὸ μύρον τοῦτο ἐπὶ τοῦ σώματός μου πρὸς τὸ ἐνταφιάσαι με ἐποίησεν.

All from Matthew.

So, Matthew 5:27-28 can be either of the following from the definition of epithumesai(which is verb), something you do, the one making no sense is void.

Here we go,

"You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman in order to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Lust is a desire, not an action even diliberate lust isn't doing something, an action is something you do, whoever looks at a woman in order to, means in order to do something, do what? lust is an emotion, a desire, etc, not an action, so this definition is null and void. if Jesus Christ meant lusting after a woman was a sin, then He would have said, whoever looks at a woman AND lust, etc, but He said whoever looks at a woman IN ORDER TO, so it's to do something, added with epithumesai is a verb, an action.

Since pros to makes this an action,  whether you like it or not, lust long for, and set the heart upon definitions are out.

Now, the last definition would be Covet, lets see,

Matthew 5:27-28 - You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman in order to covet her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Added with the fact that the word for covet and woman/wife are the same in Exodus 20:17(Septuagint)

οὐκ ἐπιθυμήσεις τὴν γυναῖκα τοῦ πλησίον σου. οὐκ ἐπιθυμήσεις τὴν οἰκίαν τοῦ πλησίον σου οὔτε τὸν ἀγρὸν αὐτοῦ οὔτε τὸν παῖδα αὐτοῦ οὔτε τὴν παιδίσκην αὐτοῦ οὔτε τοῦ βοὸς αὐτοῦ οὔτε τοῦ ὑποζυγίου αὐτοῦ οὔτε παντὸς κτήνους αὐτοῦ οὔτε ὅσα τῷ πλησίον σού ἐστιν. (Ex 20:17 LXX)

Added with looks at a woman in order to.

The intent of the look for for a purpose, the purpose of what? in order to do what? and that in order to do is epithumesai(verb) her

So it should be rendered,

You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a married woman(as same word for woman/wife is used in Septuagint version of 10th Commandment) with the intention(due to looking at a woman in order to epithumesai(verb) her) of taking her(stealing her from the husband or cheating with her due to 10th Commandment) has already committed adultery(Sex between married person and someone outside of relationship, aka cheating) with her in his heart.


So Jesus Christ is just retelling the law(Thou Shall Not Commit Adultery and 10th Commandment), He never added to The Law, The Law He originally gave at The Exodus was Fine.

Now with this fact, that covet is an action and not a desire and as proven by http://Goddidntsaythat.com/2011/03/02/the-ten-commandments-dont-forbid-coveting/

Covet in The 10 Commandments means take.

why? read the link and the fact that The 8th Commandment "Thou Shall Not Steal" uses the word ganab which can mean Kidnap

God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) gave commandments, prohibitions, on actions, which fits the entire context, desire is a natural thing that can BECOME sin, want proof?

James 1:15 - Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Desire can cause sin but isn't sin.

Therefore God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) condemned slavery and sexually desiring a woman isn't a sin,

Proverbs 5:18-19 Let your fountain be blessed, and rejoice in the wife of your youth, a lovely deer, a graceful doe. Let her breasts fill you at all times with delight; be intoxicated always in her love

Song of Solomon 7:7-8

Your stature is like a palm tree, and your breasts are like its clusters. I say I will climb the palm tree and lay hold of its fruit. Oh may your breasts be like clusters of the vine, and the scent of your breath like apples,

Song of Solomon 8:10
I was a wall, and my breasts were like towers; then I was in his eyes as one who finds peace.

The True 10 Commandments are,

1, You shall have no other gods before Yahweh(The True God, The Trinity of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)
2, You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
3, Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy
4, You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
5, Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.
6, You shall not murder.
7, You shall not commit adultery.
8, You shall not Kidnap
9, You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
10, “You shall not take(steal) your neighbor’s house. You shall not take(steal) your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

and Matthew 5:27-28 is, "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a married woman with the intention of taking her(stealing her from the husband or cheating with her) has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Basically, Jesus Christ is saying, you know to not commit adultery, do not even plan or intend on taking(or cheating) with a woman, because it's as if you already did so.

Which fits well with The Rest of The Sermon of The Mount because remember,

Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Jesus Christ never abolished or added any laws, The laws He gave at the exodus were fine.

For example on Oaths

Matthew 5:33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.[g]

Jesus Christ was just telling us how to accomplish the law, so for adultery(cheating, unfaithfulness, can only be committed by a married person and someone else(aka cheating) He said don't even plan to do it(like King David remember)

There ya go.

I'm glad you've found salvation through lust. That's nice.
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« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2013, 09:20:20 PM »

I've come to the same conclusions (somewhat) before that fornication is never explicitly condemned in the Bible, but the argument used against me is always that the Church says it's wrong, therefore it's wrong.
1 Corinthians 6:9
Know yee not that the vnrighteous shall not inherite the kingdome of God? Be not deceiued: neither fornicatours, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselues with mankinde,

Strongs Concordance

pornos: a fornicator
Original Word: πόρνος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: pornos
Phonetic Spelling: (por'-nos)
Short Definition: a fornicator
Definition: a fornicator, man who prostitutes himself.

"There are more passages in the New Testament that teachers twist to try to condemn premarital sex. For instance, take the multiple verses that instruct Christians to avoid "sexual immorality." The New Testament was written in Greek, and the word that refers to "sexual immorality" in those passages is the Greek word "porneia." Click here to see the definition of porneia as "illicit sexual intercourse" and all the passages where it is used. Some English translations translate "porneia" as "fornication," a word that often means, "sex before marriage." However, the most accurate translations translate "porneia" into "sexual immorality," a more general phrase. This difference is due to the fact that some translators follow their cultural traditions instead of God's Word. For instance, see Isaiah 64:6. In many English Bibles, the Hebrew words there are translated "filthy rags." That is an intentional mis-translation. The Hebrew word actually means, "menstrual rags." The translators behind the Bibles that say "filthy rags" respected their cultures' rules of etiquette more than God's Word. They mistranslated Scripture intentionally because they thought God's word was too gross or impolite. Similarly, the Greek word "porneia" is a general word referring to "sexual immorality" generally and not "fornication" specifically. This fact causes us to have to search the Scriptures if we want to know what sex, exactly, is "immoral" and what sex is not. And, again, while the Scriptures repeatedly call all sorts of sexual activities sin, the Scriptures never once call premarital sex a sin."

Courtesy Acts420 - http://www.unc.edu/~jasondm/sex.html

One of nine definitions (sort of).  Now, go find the other eight.
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« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2013, 09:21:43 PM »

I don't care what Protestants or orthodox's say, I care about what The Bible says. The Bible and Early Church Fathers are the authority,

You contradict yourself in this statement.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 09:22:29 PM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2013, 09:26:07 PM »

My suspicion is he doesn’t know what he is saying.  His posts are riddled with mistakes.  Not necessarily a bad thing, we all make mistakes.  The problem is he is too haughty and contentious to learn anything and this, at such a young age, invites disaster.

 1 Timothy 4

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

6 If you point these things out to the brothers and sisters,[a] you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7 Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. 8 For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come. 9 This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance. 10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

11 Command and teach these things. 12 Don’t let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity. 13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching. 14 Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through prophecy when the body of elders laid their hands on you.

15 Be diligent in these matters; give yourself wholly to them, so that everyone may see your progress. 16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

And you wonder why you were banned from another forum.
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JamesR
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« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2013, 09:49:05 PM »

Just a question, if we're not allowed to look at a woman lustfully, then how does one find their mate? We don't live in a world anymore where our marriages are arranged; now we have to go out and find our spouse. So how do we do that without looking at them lustfully? Isn't the sexual attraction usually what draws you toward each other first--IE, "that man is a hunk" or "she's hot" and motivates you to get to know them and then it either develops into a relationship (and later marriage) or nothing happens. Wouldn't it make more sense to assume that the passage refers to looking at a married woman lustfully since she's already committed to another man and to be with her would cause her to cheat on her husband and thus cause harm? But as for single women, it wouldn't apply?--provided at least maybe you had the intention of marrying her someday if she turns out to be the right one and don't just want to nail her and then bail.
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2013, 09:52:44 PM »

Just a question, if we're not allowed to look at a woman lustfully, then how does one find their mate?

At the risk of sounding cliché, you don’t marry what you see (a hottie), you marry who the person is (hottie on the inside).  Marriage is about compatibility and emotional connection, not lust.  That’s why, when looking for a spouse, you don’t look for one who turns you on today, you look for one you want to wake up next to at 67 and smells funny.

EDIT: I was very lucky.  My best friend turned into my girlfriend and I married her.  
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 09:59:20 PM by Kerdy » Logged
JamesR
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« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2013, 09:56:29 PM »

Just a question, if we're not allowed to look at a woman lustfully, then how does one find their mate?

At the risk of sounding cliché, you don’t marry what you see (a hottie), you marry who the person is (hottie on the inside).  Marriage is about compatibility and emotional connection, not lust.  That’s why, when looking for a spouse, you don’t look for one who turns you on today, you look for one you want to wake up next to at 67 and smells funny.

You got a point, but come on, you would be lying if you said that physical attraction doesn't play at least a miniscule part in this. You're going to tell me that your wife's physical appearance was never on your mind when you were courting each other?
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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James, you have problemz.
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« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2013, 10:03:22 PM »

Just a question, if we're not allowed to look at a woman lustfully, then how does one find their mate? We don't live in a world anymore where our marriages are arranged; now we have to go out and find our spouse. So how do we do that without looking at them lustfully? Isn't the sexual attraction usually what draws you toward each other first--IE, "that man is a hunk" or "she's hot" and motivates you to get to know them and then it either develops into a relationship (and later marriage) or nothing happens. Wouldn't it make more sense to assume that the passage refers to looking at a married woman lustfully since she's already committed to another man and to be with her would cause her to cheat on her husband and thus cause harm? But as for single women, it wouldn't apply?--provided at least maybe you had the intention of marrying her someday if she turns out to be the right one and don't just want to nail her and then bail.

It would certainly be a very convenient argument, founded on worldly wisdom.

Wanting "to nail" someone is a wonderful beginning to the life-long martyrdom that is marriage.
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« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2013, 10:05:06 PM »

Just a question, if we're not allowed to look at a woman lustfully, then how does one find their mate? We don't live in a world anymore where our marriages are arranged; now we have to go out and find our spouse. So how do we do that without looking at them lustfully? Isn't the sexual attraction usually what draws you toward each other first--IE, "that man is a hunk" or "she's hot" and motivates you to get to know them and then it either develops into a relationship (and later marriage) or nothing happens. Wouldn't it make more sense to assume that the passage refers to looking at a married woman lustfully since she's already committed to another man and to be with her would cause her to cheat on her husband and thus cause harm? But as for single women, it wouldn't apply?--provided at least maybe you had the intention of marrying her someday if she turns out to be the right one and don't just want to nail her and then bail.
Haven't you ever heard of love?  Haven't you ever heard of growing in relationships through conversations not looks?  I'm not sure if this is the *official* Church view of sex, but a wise [protestant] man once told me "sex is not intended for lust, that was satan who did that, sex is for love, a participant in a married couple should not go into sexual relations in order to feel good, but to make his or her spouse feel good, and the good feeling of said participant is a byproduct of the love, a part of God's gift, a 'reward' if you will, as cynical as that might sound."  Again, I'm not sure if that is the OFFICIAL Church teaching, and the man IS Protestant (somewhat) so take it with a grain of salt.  But in my uneducated opinion (as far as sex goes) I can't find anything wrong with that.  
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« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2013, 10:05:13 PM »

Just a question, if we're not allowed to look at a woman lustfully, then how does one find their mate?

At the risk of sounding cliché, you don’t marry what you see (a hottie), you marry who the person is (hottie on the inside).  Marriage is about compatibility and emotional connection, not lust.  That’s why, when looking for a spouse, you don’t look for one who turns you on today, you look for one you want to wake up next to at 67 and smells funny.

You got a point, but come on, you would be lying if you said that physical attraction doesn't play at least a miniscule part in this. You're going to tell me that your wife's physical appearance was never on your mind when you were courting each other?

Very miniscule.  I found her very attractive, but sex wasn’t what was on my mind, and the attractive I mean is pretty, not sexy.  I was actually looking for a wife, not a roll in the hay.  When looking for a wife, there are so many more important things to consider than if you think she looks good in a swim suit.  

The approach you are considering is one of the reasons marriage is so disposable today.  People marry because they turn each other on only to find out later they don’t even really like the other person.  This is why is it so extremely important to wait before having sexual relations.  It is only a part of marriage, not even the biggest part.  
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