Author Topic: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary  (Read 2043 times)

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Offline Peter J

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Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« on: January 18, 2013, 09:44:12 AM »
This article was linked to on an old, recently resurrected thread (which for some reason I decided not to post on ;)): Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God.

He apparently believes that he is representing the Nestorian position. I wonder, however, what he would think of the Nestorians (Assyrian Church of the East) nowadays? I'm guessing he would say that they have not stayed true to their Nestorian roots.
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Offline dcommini

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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2013, 12:12:13 PM »
Quote
Now retired, he resides with wife, Claudia (also delivered from Catholicism into a personal relationship with Jesus Christ), outside Atlanta, Georgia.
(from the bottom of the page linked)

This is one more thing that bugs me about some Protestants/Evangelicals; they don't think that Orthodox or Catholics can have a personal relationship with Jesus. I noticed this same sentiment when I read that booklet from the Baptist Church on how to convert Orthodox.

I don't know about anybody else on this forum, cradle or convert, but even when I was first just an inquirer I felt that my relationship with Jesus was reaching heights that I had never known before - and it continues to grow even today!
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2013, 12:20:19 PM »
Quote
Now retired, he resides with wife, Claudia (also delivered from Catholicism into a personal relationship with Jesus Christ), outside Atlanta, Georgia.
(from the bottom of the page linked)

I hadn't noticed that, but I did notice this sentence: "He has clearly shown this distinction of natures to be a mystery – one the Jews of His day could not comprehend any better than the Roman Catholics or Christians of the 21st century." implying that Catholics aren't Christians.
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Offline choy

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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2013, 04:42:30 PM »
This article was linked to on an old, recently resurrected thread (which for some reason I decided not to post on ;)): Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God.

He apparently believes that he is representing the Nestorian position. I wonder, however, what he would think of the Nestorians (Assyrian Church of the East) nowadays? I'm guessing he would say that they have not stayed true to their Nestorian roots.

The Assyrian Church of the East aren't Nestorians.  If I remember correctly, their predecessor were Nestorians but died off, and what today is called the Assyrian Church of the East isn't exactly Nestorian.  In fact they have a signed declaration of Christology with the Vatican and there is limited intercommunion between them and the Chaldean Catholic Church in their traditional lands due to persecution.

Offline sheenj

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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2013, 04:54:21 PM »
This article was linked to on an old, recently resurrected thread (which for some reason I decided not to post on ;)): Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God.

He apparently believes that he is representing the Nestorian position. I wonder, however, what he would think of the Nestorians (Assyrian Church of the East) nowadays? I'm guessing he would say that they have not stayed true to their Nestorian roots.

The Assyrian Church of the East aren't Nestorians.  If I remember correctly, their predecessor were Nestorians but died off, and what today is called the Assyrian Church of the East isn't exactly Nestorian.  In fact they have a signed declaration of Christology with the Vatican and there is limited intercommunion between them and the Chaldean Catholic Church in their traditional lands due to persecution.

Meh, they still venerate Nestorius and I don't think they confess that One of the Trinity suffered in the Flesh.

Offline dcommini

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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2013, 06:35:22 PM »
Quote
Now retired, he resides with wife, Claudia (also delivered from Catholicism into a personal relationship with Jesus Christ), outside Atlanta, Georgia.
(from the bottom of the page linked)

I hadn't noticed that, but I did notice this sentence: "He has clearly shown this distinction of natures to be a mystery – one the Jews of His day could not comprehend any better than the Roman Catholics or Christians of the 21st century." implying that Catholics aren't Christians.

Yes, I grew up believing the same thing, even gave one of my Catholic friends a Chick Tract that said Catholics weren't really Christians. And yes, I grew up Baptist. This belief now irks me as well...
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2013, 07:39:02 PM »
This article was linked to on an old, recently resurrected thread (which for some reason I decided not to post on ;)): Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God.

He apparently believes that he is representing the Nestorian position. I wonder, however, what he would think of the Nestorians (Assyrian Church of the East) nowadays? I'm guessing he would say that they have not stayed true to their Nestorian roots.

The Assyrian Church of the East aren't Nestorians.  If I remember correctly, their predecessor were Nestorians but died off, and what today is called the Assyrian Church of the East isn't exactly Nestorian.  In fact they have a signed declaration of Christology with the Vatican and there is limited intercommunion between them and the Chaldean Catholic Church in their traditional lands due to persecution.

Meh, they still venerate Nestorius and I don't think they confess that One of the Trinity suffered in the Flesh.

Neither, AFAIK, do they confess the Blessed Ever-Virgin Mary is Mother of God. But their liturgical services are better than those of Protestants.
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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2013, 08:11:07 PM »
The Syriac word they use for Theotokos is "yema d'alaha" which simply means Mother of God. I don't think they will use "yaldat alaha" which literally means birth giver of God.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2013, 08:17:30 PM »
The Syriac word they use for Theotokos is "yema d'alaha" which simply means Mother of God. I don't think they will use "yaldat alaha" which literally means birth giver of God.

In Syriac, can someone be a yema without being a yaldat?
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2013, 08:40:45 PM »
I'd imagine yema means Mother rather than bearer/birthgiver.

Very similar in Arabic:  "Om Allah"=Mother of God; and "Walidat Allah"=birth giver of God
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 08:41:03 PM by minasoliman »
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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2013, 08:50:22 PM »
The Syriac word they use for Theotokos is "yema d'alaha" which simply means Mother of God. I don't think they will use "yaldat alaha" which literally means birth giver of God.

In Syriac, can someone be a yema without being a yaldat?

[Disclaimer] I'm not a Syriac scholar, I don't even know the language that well. [/Disclaimer]

 I would say so. The concepts of motherhood and birth giving are universal and I don't think any language treats them as being completely equal.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2013, 09:17:25 PM »
The Syriac word they use for Theotokos is "yema d'alaha" which simply means Mother of God. I don't think they will use "yaldat alaha" which literally means birth giver of God.

In Syriac, can someone be a yema without being a yaldat?

[Disclaimer] I'm not a Syriac scholar, I don't even know the language that well. [/Disclaimer]

 I would say so. The concepts of motherhood and birth giving are universal and I don't think any language treats them as being completely equal.

Yet the concept of adoptive mother, though it certainly exists, isn't the default position. "Mother" has a de facto meaning of birthgiving, ISTM. That's not to say it's as clear as birthgiver, Theotokos, or Dei genitrix. But in English and Latin, "Mother" and "Birthgiver" of God are both used with the same meaning.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2013, 10:07:38 PM »
This article was linked to on an old, recently resurrected thread (which for some reason I decided not to post on ;)): Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God.

He apparently believes that he is representing the Nestorian position. I wonder, however, what he would think of the Nestorians (Assyrian Church of the East) nowadays? I'm guessing he would say that they have not stayed true to their Nestorian roots.

The Assyrian Church of the East aren't Nestorians.  If I remember correctly, their predecessor were Nestorians but died off, and what today is called the Assyrian Church of the East isn't exactly Nestorian.  

That may be true (I think opinions on the ACoE and its history vary). But in any case, I don't think even the old Nestorian Assyrians would have said "He who is eternal, who could not and cannot die, could not be, and was not, born of the virgin." (end of the article)
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 10:09:14 PM by Peter J »
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Offline choy

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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2013, 10:43:24 PM »
This article was linked to on an old, recently resurrected thread (which for some reason I decided not to post on ;)): Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God.

He apparently believes that he is representing the Nestorian position. I wonder, however, what he would think of the Nestorians (Assyrian Church of the East) nowadays? I'm guessing he would say that they have not stayed true to their Nestorian roots.

The Assyrian Church of the East aren't Nestorians.  If I remember correctly, their predecessor were Nestorians but died off, and what today is called the Assyrian Church of the East isn't exactly Nestorian.  In fact they have a signed declaration of Christology with the Vatican and there is limited intercommunion between them and the Chaldean Catholic Church in their traditional lands due to persecution.

Meh, they still venerate Nestorius and I don't think they confess that One of the Trinity suffered in the Flesh.

But doesn't even some Orthodox scholars claim that Nestorius himself never taught or believe the heresy named after him?

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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2013, 10:50:48 PM »

But doesn't even some Orthodox scholars claim that Nestorius himself never taught or believe the heresy named after him?

I'm not sure about Orthodox, but I've heard this from scholars. Others as well, like Theodore of Mopsuestia.

Offline choy

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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2013, 10:55:24 PM »

But doesn't even some Orthodox scholars claim that Nestorius himself never taught or believe the heresy named after him?

I'm not sure about Orthodox, but I've heard this from scholars. Others as well, like Theodore of Mopsuestia.

Most recently (not that I am saying they are scholars), I've heard this from a few podcasts on AFR.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2013, 11:22:39 PM »
This article was linked to on an old, recently resurrected thread (which for some reason I decided not to post on ;)): Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God.

He apparently believes that he is representing the Nestorian position. I wonder, however, what he would think of the Nestorians (Assyrian Church of the East) nowadays? I'm guessing he would say that they have not stayed true to their Nestorian roots.

The Assyrian Church of the East aren't Nestorians.  If I remember correctly, their predecessor were Nestorians but died off, and what today is called the Assyrian Church of the East isn't exactly Nestorian.  In fact they have a signed declaration of Christology with the Vatican and there is limited intercommunion between them and the Chaldean Catholic Church in their traditional lands due to persecution.

Meh, they still venerate Nestorius and I don't think they confess that One of the Trinity suffered in the Flesh.

But doesn't even some Orthodox scholars claim that Nestorius himself never taught or believe the heresy named after him?

That is perhaps an overly-generous assessment. The man's theology was not sound.
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Offline sheenj

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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2013, 09:11:03 AM »
^Indeed, perhaps some things were wrongly attributed to him in the name of polemics, and but overall, his beliefs just were not Orthodox.

Offline akimel

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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2013, 01:45:09 PM »
I've wanted for years to cite this quotation from Dom John Chapman, and this looks as good a place as any:

"Protestants have often said .. that we Catholics put our Lady in the place of Christ.  I fear it is true that the place in which many Protestants put Christ is much the same as that in which we rightly put His Mother, that is to say, the highest place among creatures, but yet at an infinite distance from her Son and Creator."

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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2013, 01:50:33 PM »
I've wanted for years to cite this quotation from Dom John Chapman, and this looks as good a place as any:

"Protestants have often said .. that we Catholics put our Lady in the place of Christ.  I fear it is true that the place in which many Protestants put Christ is much the same as that in which we rightly put His Mother, that is to say, the highest place among creatures, but yet at an infinite distance from her Son and Creator."

Nice!
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2013, 03:13:35 PM »
I've wanted for years to cite this quotation from Dom John Chapman, and this looks as good a place as any:

"Protestants have often said .. that we Catholics put our Lady in the place of Christ.  I fear it is true that the place in which many Protestants put Christ is much the same as that in which we rightly put His Mother, that is to say, the highest place among creatures, but yet at an infinite distance from her Son and Creator."

Not sure about the last part.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2013, 03:31:20 PM »
I've wanted for years to cite this quotation from Dom John Chapman, and this looks as good a place as any:

"Protestants have often said .. that we Catholics put our Lady in the place of Christ.  I fear it is true that the place in which many Protestants put Christ is much the same as that in which we rightly put His Mother, that is to say, the highest place among creatures, but yet at an infinite distance from her Son and Creator."

Not sure about the last part.

In a sense, you're right.  I believe they're stressing Christ's divine essence in this case, and in the context of things, it's a diss to Protestant thinking.

One time it was explained to me by a Greek Orthodox priest that Roman Catholic architecture has it that spires represented God's infinite nature, whereas Greek Orthodox domes represents God's descent to us.  Not sure the truth of this, but it was interesting.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 03:31:51 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2013, 03:38:41 PM »
I've wanted for years to cite this quotation from Dom John Chapman, and this looks as good a place as any:

"Protestants have often said .. that we Catholics put our Lady in the place of Christ.  I fear it is true that the place in which many Protestants put Christ is much the same as that in which we rightly put His Mother, that is to say, the highest place among creatures, but yet at an infinite distance from her Son and Creator."

Not sure about the last part.

In a sense, you're right.  I believe they're stressing Christ's divine essence in this case, and in the context of things, it's a diss to Protestant thinking.

One time it was explained to me by a Greek Orthodox priest that Roman Catholic architecture has it that spires represented God's infinite nature, whereas Greek Orthodox domes represents God's descent to us.  Not sure the truth of this, but it was interesting.

Okay. I guess I wasn't sure if the last part was a reference to Protestants' thinking on Our Lady, or not. It does seem to represent some Protestant thought.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2013, 05:59:00 PM »
I've wanted for years to cite this quotation from Dom John Chapman, and this looks as good a place as any:

"Protestants have often said .. that we Catholics put our Lady in the place of Christ.  I fear it is true that the place in which many Protestants put Christ is much the same as that in which we rightly put His Mother, that is to say, the highest place among creatures, but yet at an infinite distance from her Son and Creator."

Not sure about the last part.

I think I might understand your objection; but I think this question would be helpful: would it be more acceptable to you if Chapman had said that the difference between Jesus and Mary is infinite?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 06:00:35 PM by Peter J »
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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2013, 06:13:41 PM »
I no longer have the tolerance and patience to read articles like these written by Protestant heretics. They truly make my blood boil. Protestants are the people of heresy and blasphemy and have almost nothing authentically Christian left in their "faith" tradition. They are heretics because they deny the core CHRISTIAN doctrines that the Holy Apostles preached and they are blasphemers because they not only blaspheme the Saints of the Church, but also because they rob the blessed Virgin of her proper honor as Theotokos, and in doing so they blaspheme and deny our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ Himself. May God lead them out of their disbelief and back onto the straight path.

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who shall secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." -2 Peter 2:1 (KJV)
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 06:23:12 PM by Severian »
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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2013, 06:32:47 PM »
I've wanted for years to cite this quotation from Dom John Chapman, and this looks as good a place as any:

"Protestants have often said .. that we Catholics put our Lady in the place of Christ.  I fear it is true that the place in which many Protestants put Christ is much the same as that in which we rightly put His Mother, that is to say, the highest place among creatures, but yet at an infinite distance from her Son and Creator."

Not sure about the last part.

I think I might understand your objection; but I think this question would be helpful: would it be more acceptable to you if Chapman had said that the difference between Jesus and Mary is infinite?

I don't think it's true to say the difference between Jesus and Mary is infinite. What is the point of makig a statement like that? What is it trying to prove?
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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2013, 07:46:15 PM »
I no longer have the tolerance and patience to read articles like these written by Protestant heretics.

Well, yeah, okay...but will you forgive me for laughing at the fact that you ended this post with a quote from the KJV Bible? :)

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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2013, 07:49:50 PM »
I no longer have the tolerance and patience to read articles like these written by Protestant heretics.

Well, yeah, okay...but will you forgive me for laughing at the fact that you ended this post with a quote from the KJV Bible? :)
LOL. Good point. :D I like the KJV for its poetic rendering of the verses of Scripture. :)
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 07:52:18 PM by Severian »
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2013, 09:13:05 PM »
I no longer have the tolerance and patience to read articles like these written by Protestant heretics.

Well, yeah, okay...but will you forgive me for laughing at the fact that you ended this post with a quote from the KJV Bible? :)

I am shocked!
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Offline akimel

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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2013, 09:16:39 PM »

I don't think it's true to say the difference between Jesus and Mary is infinite. What is the point of makig a statement like that? What is it trying to prove?

Whether we use the word "distance" or "difference," all Dom Chapman is saying is that Jesus is God, whereas many Protestants, particularly of the Liberal Protestant variety, understand Jesus as an exalted human being. 

I don't understand the confusion. 

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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2013, 09:48:48 PM »

I don't think it's true to say the difference between Jesus and Mary is infinite. What is the point of makig a statement like that? What is it trying to prove?

Whether we use the word "distance" or "difference," all Dom Chapman is saying is that Jesus is God, whereas many Protestants, particularly of the Liberal Protestant variety, understand Jesus as an exalted human being. 

I don't understand the confusion. 

Sorry, Father. I was confused about whom he was attributing the last phrase, Protestants or Catholics (and Orthodox by extension). Of course, to say there is an infinite difference or distance between Christ and His mother is ridiculous, given the Incarnation. But the reality and consequences of the Incarnation are often lost on Protestants, whether conservative or liberal.
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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2013, 09:32:43 AM »
Sorry, Father. I was confused about whom he was attributing the last phrase, Protestants or Catholics (and Orthodox by extension).

Well, I won't get into the "and Orthodox by extension", but I thought the "we" made it pretty clear:

I've wanted for years to cite this quotation from Dom John Chapman, and this looks as good a place as any:

"Protestants have often said .. that we Catholics put our Lady in the place of Christ.  I fear it is true that the place in which many Protestants put Christ is much the same as that in which we rightly put His Mother, that is to say, the highest place among creatures, but yet at an infinite distance from her Son and Creator."
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: Protestants and Nestorians on Mary
« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2013, 02:40:41 PM »
This article was linked to on an old, recently resurrected thread (which for some reason I decided not to post on ;)): Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God.

He apparently believes that he is representing the Nestorian position. I wonder, however, what he would think of the Nestorians (Assyrian Church of the East) nowadays? I'm guessing he would say that they have not stayed true to their Nestorian roots.

If you really truthfully look into the issue, Nestorius was framed by Cyril. If you look at both their lives you will see that Cyril was a thus and a liar.

The Assyrian Church of the East aren't Nestorians.  If I remember correctly, their predecessor were Nestorians but died off, and what today is called the Assyrian Church of the East isn't exactly Nestorian.  In fact they have a signed declaration of Christology with the Vatican and there is limited intercommunion between them and the Chaldean Catholic Church in their traditional lands due to persecution.

Meh, they still venerate Nestorius and I don't think they confess that One of the Trinity suffered in the Flesh.

But doesn't even some Orthodox scholars claim that Nestorius himself never taught or believe the heresy named after him?
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.