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FlickFlack
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« Reply #45 on: January 17, 2013, 05:54:44 PM »

Firstly, this may just be my inner Scholasticism coming out, but I think that judging the truth of something based off of the emotional affects it has on people is very stupid to be quite frank. Feelings and emotions can lie. They are temporary. They constantly change. They won't tell you what is true, but will rather just tell you how something makes you feel. Reason is the best tool to judge things by because it will not lie to  you and will stay true no matter how you are feeling--it is self-evident and objective. Secondly, I think that we need to make a distinction between the types of "Joys" involved. I feel more than qualified to speak on this since I've spent the majority of my pre-conversion life in Evangelical "Born-Again" crowds. From what I have observed, the joy that they experience honestly seems quite shallow and immature--just rooted in hyper-emotionalism. The reason for this is that it constantly needs to be fed. Instead of living a godly life and doing what God says, they spend more of their time trying to satisfy this hunger inside of them for more "joy" and oftentimes go to desperate means to do so. Many Evangelical Mega-Churches have been built because of this. And eventually, what they find out is that this need for "joy" can never be fully satisfied by the world, and they oftentimes see this as being extremely bad, don't know how to deal with pain or accept spiritual maturity, and in the worst case scenerio, despair and end up leaving Christianity altogether.

This is the joy of the demons. It is built upon hyper-emotionalism, leads people into despairing and blinds their eyes to true spiritual development and joy. True joy is not about feeling no pain or sadness--indeed, Jesus specifically tells us that we will suffer for Him constantly--but about accepting our struggles and sorrows in a submissive manner, learning from them, and even reflecting on them to learn how we could glorify God through them, and most of all, staying submitted to God throughout it all and thanking Him.

True joy produces humility and humbleness--and that brings me up to my next criticism of Evangelical "joy". I find that the Evangelical sense of pride oftentimes leads to a not-so-subtle sense of pridefulness and individualism. Many Evangelicals I've met who've matched your description of possessing that sense of Evangelical "joy" oftentimes begin to think that they do not need Church at all or any guidance from their fellow Christians because they see themselves as having their own special line with God and capable of working out their salvation on their own. This is the joy of the demons--subtle pride, a rejection of the Truth, blindness to true spiritual development, eventual despair etc. I wouldn't touch this joy with a forty foot pole.

Now, the true sense of joy--something I admittedly don't have yet--I observe among several of the older folks at my Orthodox Church who come from troubled countries and are close to dying. These people seem to be emotionally dying and full of troubles, yet, in a strange way, they have not despaired but have accepted their tribulations and offer them to God. Instead of trying to escape them with this shallow sense of happiness that constantly needs to be fed, they face them, learn from them, and come closer to God through them. Their sense of true joy doesn't cause them to become prideful or to leave the CHurch, but rather causes them to be extremely meek, quiet and humble, and come to the Church more often than anyone else. They truly seem content with their life, knowing that they need God more than ever and that there are things wrong in the world, but submissively handling them and turning to God. This is the true joy--the joy that I hope to attain. It is not shallow and prideful, but deep, beneficial for learning and produces humility and submissiveness to the Truth and Church.

Any sense of "joy" that produces pride and not humility and does not lead a person to the Church is the joy of the demons.

so this true joy of yours is actually being humbled by suffering.. it is completely senseless.
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FlickFlack
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« Reply #46 on: January 17, 2013, 05:55:38 PM »

@JamesR

The christian God is a feeling.




 Huh Huh

 Huh
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« Reply #47 on: January 17, 2013, 05:55:49 PM »

I'm sorry to everyone here, but I don't get--nor will I ever get--the whole "feelings/emotionally" thingy that is vital to so many people's religion and faith. And I don't see how any decent minded person could honestly make a decision based off of it. I'm a modernist Scholastic at the core till the day that I die and I openly admit it.
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« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2013, 05:56:01 PM »

@JamesR

The christian God is a feeling.

Of course. So what is your point?

There is a Priest who posts around here occasionally, I can hear him saying: both / and, not either / or.
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« Reply #49 on: January 17, 2013, 05:57:10 PM »

Firstly, this may just be my inner Scholasticism coming out, but I think that judging the truth of something based off of the emotional affects it has on people is very stupid to be quite frank. Feelings and emotions can lie. They are temporary. They constantly change. They won't tell you what is true, but will rather just tell you how something makes you feel. Reason is the best tool to judge things by because it will not lie to  you and will stay true no matter how you are feeling--it is self-evident and objective. Secondly, I think that we need to make a distinction between the types of "Joys" involved. I feel more than qualified to speak on this since I've spent the majority of my pre-conversion life in Evangelical "Born-Again" crowds. From what I have observed, the joy that they experience honestly seems quite shallow and immature--just rooted in hyper-emotionalism. The reason for this is that it constantly needs to be fed. Instead of living a godly life and doing what God says, they spend more of their time trying to satisfy this hunger inside of them for more "joy" and oftentimes go to desperate means to do so. Many Evangelical Mega-Churches have been built because of this. And eventually, what they find out is that this need for "joy" can never be fully satisfied by the world, and they oftentimes see this as being extremely bad, don't know how to deal with pain or accept spiritual maturity, and in the worst case scenerio, despair and end up leaving Christianity altogether.

This is the joy of the demons. It is built upon hyper-emotionalism, leads people into despairing and blinds their eyes to true spiritual development and joy. True joy is not about feeling no pain or sadness--indeed, Jesus specifically tells us that we will suffer for Him constantly--but about accepting our struggles and sorrows in a submissive manner, learning from them, and even reflecting on them to learn how we could glorify God through them, and most of all, staying submitted to God throughout it all and thanking Him.

True joy produces humility and humbleness--and that brings me up to my next criticism of Evangelical "joy". I find that the Evangelical sense of pride oftentimes leads to a not-so-subtle sense of pridefulness and individualism. Many Evangelicals I've met who've matched your description of possessing that sense of Evangelical "joy" oftentimes begin to think that they do not need Church at all or any guidance from their fellow Christians because they see themselves as having their own special line with God and capable of working out their salvation on their own. This is the joy of the demons--subtle pride, a rejection of the Truth, blindness to true spiritual development, eventual despair etc. I wouldn't touch this joy with a forty foot pole.

Now, the true sense of joy--something I admittedly don't have yet--I observe among several of the older folks at my Orthodox Church who come from troubled countries and are close to dying. These people seem to be emotionally dying and full of troubles, yet, in a strange way, they have not despaired but have accepted their tribulations and offer them to God. Instead of trying to escape them with this shallow sense of happiness that constantly needs to be fed, they face them, learn from them, and come closer to God through them. Their sense of true joy doesn't cause them to become prideful or to leave the CHurch, but rather causes them to be extremely meek, quiet and humble, and come to the Church more often than anyone else. They truly seem content with their life, knowing that they need God more than ever and that there are things wrong in the world, but submissively handling them and turning to God. This is the true joy--the joy that I hope to attain. It is not shallow and prideful, but deep, beneficial for learning and produces humility and submissiveness to the Truth and Church.

Any sense of "joy" that produces pride and not humility and does not lead a person to the Church is the joy of the demons.

so this true joy of yours is actually being humbled by suffering.. it is completely senseless.

What you call senseless I call mature. It's about dealing with your problems and facing them opposed to trying to escape them or mask them with a shallow sense of hyper-emotional escapism.
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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« Reply #50 on: January 17, 2013, 06:00:39 PM »

Happiness: Result of happenings (things that happen).

Ay-yup. In older texts, especially before the 18th century, 'happy' is used as a synonym for 'fortunate'.

And yet the advent of the discourse which animates this one had nothing to do with either happiness or fortune.

I would think a Greek speaker would know that.
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« Reply #51 on: January 17, 2013, 06:02:37 PM »

Okay I have to admit it, this is a very exciting thread for me. For once Orthonorm is actually not being cryptic but openly explaining things.
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« Reply #52 on: January 17, 2013, 06:07:26 PM »

I'm sorry to everyone here, but I don't get--nor will I ever get--the whole "feelings/emotionally" thingy that is vital to so many people's religion and faith. And I don't see how any decent minded person could honestly make a decision based off of it. I'm a modernist Scholastic at the core till the day that I die and I openly admit it.

When I suggested finding something to die for, I was hoping for something other than Scholasticism.

And by looking at your own posting history it would be difficult to figure out in virtue of what you base decisions on other than emotions.

It doesn't take Sigmund Freud to see such proclamations of yours about the flight from feeling to shelter in reason to be a manner in which to obviate the pain you find in your life.
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« Reply #53 on: January 17, 2013, 06:12:58 PM »

I think it would help if you elaborated. What exactly do you mean by "a feeling"?
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« Reply #54 on: January 17, 2013, 06:14:46 PM »

I'm sorry to everyone here, but I don't get--nor will I ever get--the whole "feelings/emotionally" thingy that is vital to so many people's religion and faith. And I don't see how any decent minded person could honestly make a decision based off of it. I'm a modernist Scholastic at the core till the day that I die and I openly admit it.

When I suggested finding something to die for, I was hoping for something other than Scholasticism.

And by looking at your own posting history it would be difficult to figure out in virtue of what you base decisions on other than emotions.

It doesn't take Sigmund Freud to see such proclamations of yours about the flight from feeling to shelter in reason to be a manner in which to obviate the pain you find in your life.

So are you saying that it's impossible to be emotionless?  Huh
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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« Reply #55 on: January 17, 2013, 06:16:09 PM »

@JamesR

The christian God is a feeling.

Of course. So what is your point?

There is a Priest who posts around here occasionally, I can hear him saying: both / and, not either / or.

My point is that "feelings" should be talked down or looked down.

both as in which both?
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« Reply #56 on: January 17, 2013, 06:16:45 PM »

I'm sorry to everyone here, but I don't get--nor will I ever get--the whole "feelings/emotionally" thingy that is vital to so many people's religion and faith. And I don't see how any decent minded person could honestly make a decision based off of it. I'm a modernist Scholastic at the core till the day that I die and I openly admit it.

When I suggested finding something to die for, I was hoping for something other than Scholasticism.

And by looking at your own posting history it would be difficult to figure out in virtue of what you base decisions on other than emotions.

It doesn't take Sigmund Freud to see such proclamations of yours about the flight from feeling to shelter in reason to be a manner in which to obviate the pain you find in your life.

So are you saying that it's impossible to be emotionless?  Huh

I pitty the fools that are like that.They are walking corpses.
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« Reply #57 on: January 17, 2013, 06:17:16 PM »

I think it would help if you elaborated. What exactly do you mean by "a feeling"?

Love.
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« Reply #58 on: January 17, 2013, 06:19:03 PM »

Happiness: Result of happenings (things that happen).

Ay-yup. In older texts, especially before the 18th century, 'happy' is used as a synonym for 'fortunate'.

And yet the advent of the discourse which animates this one had nothing to do with either happiness or fortune.

I would think a Greek speaker would know that.

It's the English of this statement that fails to parse. Care to elaborate?
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« Reply #59 on: January 17, 2013, 06:23:16 PM »

That's more like it.
But I would rather say that God is divine love, not human love. Therefore, I think that the term 'feeling' might not be the best word to describe it.
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« Reply #60 on: January 17, 2013, 06:26:21 PM »

I'm sorry to everyone here, but I don't get--nor will I ever get--the whole "feelings/emotionally" thingy that is vital to so many people's religion and faith. And I don't see how any decent minded person could honestly make a decision based off of it. I'm a modernist Scholastic at the core till the day that I die and I openly admit it.

When I suggested finding something to die for, I was hoping for something other than Scholasticism.

And by looking at your own posting history it would be difficult to figure out in virtue of what you base decisions on other than emotions.

It doesn't take Sigmund Freud to see such proclamations of yours about the flight from feeling to shelter in reason to be a manner in which to obviate the pain you find in your life.

So are you saying that it's impossible to be emotionless?  Huh

Yes. At least if you are a person. As much as I am loath to use a Latin derived term, it will suffice.

Emotion is one way to simply formulate what allows us to be persons. It is literally what moves us out of ourselves (more literally "pushes us out").

It is not for nothing that most words which stayed around to describe our ways of being, even or perhaps especially what we believe to be primarily our interiority, have a meaning rooted in openness and movement. How else would one explain that which is transcendental?

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« Reply #61 on: January 17, 2013, 06:28:20 PM »

So are you saying that it's impossible to be emotionless?  Huh

Why would anyone want to be that?

You might strive to be dispassionate (free of vice - ataraktos, apathes), but not emotionless (without feeling - anaisthetos). 
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« Reply #62 on: January 17, 2013, 06:28:54 PM »

Happiness: Result of happenings (things that happen).

Ay-yup. In older texts, especially before the 18th century, 'happy' is used as a synonym for 'fortunate'.

And yet the advent of the discourse which animates this one had nothing to do with either happiness or fortune.

I would think a Greek speaker would know that.

It's the English of this statement that fails to parse. Care to elaborate?

What word found its central position in antiquity regarding how one ought to live?
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« Reply #63 on: January 17, 2013, 06:31:12 PM »

Firstly, this may just be my inner Scholasticism coming out, but I think that judging the truth of something based off of the emotional affects it has on people is very stupid to be quite frank. Feelings and emotions can lie. They are temporary. They constantly change. They won't tell you what is true, but will rather just tell you how something makes you feel. Reason is the best tool to judge things by because it will not lie to  you and will stay true no matter how you are feeling--it is self-evident and objective. Secondly, I think that we need to make a distinction between the types of "Joys" involved. I feel more than qualified to speak on this since I've spent the majority of my pre-conversion life in Evangelical "Born-Again" crowds. From what I have observed, the joy that they experience honestly seems quite shallow and immature--just rooted in hyper-emotionalism. The reason for this is that it constantly needs to be fed. Instead of living a godly life and doing what God says, they spend more of their time trying to satisfy this hunger inside of them for more "joy" and oftentimes go to desperate means to do so. Many Evangelical Mega-Churches have been built because of this. And eventually, what they find out is that this need for "joy" can never be fully satisfied by the world, and they oftentimes see this as being extremely bad, don't know how to deal with pain or accept spiritual maturity, and in the worst case scenerio, despair and end up leaving Christianity altogether.

This is the joy of the demons. It is built upon hyper-emotionalism, leads people into despairing and blinds their eyes to true spiritual development and joy. True joy is not about feeling no pain or sadness--indeed, Jesus specifically tells us that we will suffer for Him constantly--but about accepting our struggles and sorrows in a submissive manner, learning from them, and even reflecting on them to learn how we could glorify God through them, and most of all, staying submitted to God throughout it all and thanking Him.

True joy produces humility and humbleness--and that brings me up to my next criticism of Evangelical "joy". I find that the Evangelical sense of pride oftentimes leads to a not-so-subtle sense of pridefulness and individualism. Many Evangelicals I've met who've matched your description of possessing that sense of Evangelical "joy" oftentimes begin to think that they do not need Church at all or any guidance from their fellow Christians because they see themselves as having their own special line with God and capable of working out their salvation on their own. This is the joy of the demons--subtle pride, a rejection of the Truth, blindness to true spiritual development, eventual despair etc. I wouldn't touch this joy with a forty foot pole.

Now, the true sense of joy--something I admittedly don't have yet--I observe among several of the older folks at my Orthodox Church who come from troubled countries and are close to dying. These people seem to be emotionally dying and full of troubles, yet, in a strange way, they have not despaired but have accepted their tribulations and offer them to God. Instead of trying to escape them with this shallow sense of happiness that constantly needs to be fed, they face them, learn from them, and come closer to God through them. Their sense of true joy doesn't cause them to become prideful or to leave the CHurch, but rather causes them to be extremely meek, quiet and humble, and come to the Church more often than anyone else. They truly seem content with their life, knowing that they need God more than ever and that there are things wrong in the world, but submissively handling them and turning to God. This is the true joy--the joy that I hope to attain. It is not shallow and prideful, but deep, beneficial for learning and produces humility and submissiveness to the Truth and Church.

Any sense of "joy" that produces pride and not humility and does not lead a person to the Church is the joy of the demons.

so this true joy of yours is actually being humbled by suffering.. it is completely senseless.

What you call senseless I call mature. It's about dealing with your problems and facing them opposed to trying to escape them or mask them with a shallow sense of hyper-emotional escapism.

My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

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« Reply #64 on: January 17, 2013, 06:39:41 PM »

The question is, is that self contenance really joy?

I would apply the classic Orthodox standard to it; does it produce humbleness, humility and submission to the message of God only found within the Church? If the answer is yes, then yes, I would say it is really joy.

Quote
Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?

I think it is more about being humble and submitted to God. You are full of life, but it is rather deeper. I find that this sense of joy can oftentimes be more impressive to people than even the loudest, most openly "joyous" person there is. If you read the New Testament or the Lives of the Saints, you will see that most devout people had more of an inner sense of joy. Fun fact: Jesus never laughed as far as we know.

Quote
Is that the only joy for us?

I don't know

Quote
Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?

Depends on what you mean by conforming and changing. We should conform to God and the faith no matter what the circumstances are and not try to change this at all, but what we should try to change is our vices. We should try to become more virtuous and faithful, changing ourselves for God.

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Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

God's message doesn't need evolving. Jesus and the Church are the final revelation of Truth to mankind. The evolving we need is to live by this faith and no longer walk in wickedness.
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« Reply #65 on: January 17, 2013, 06:40:38 PM »

My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

There's nothing stagnant in overcoming the curve balls of life. One needs to accept how things are before they can change them, rather than escaping into la-la land. If life was meant to be a bed of roses, we would have no need for a Paraclete.
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« Reply #66 on: January 17, 2013, 06:42:07 PM »

Firstly, this may just be my inner Scholasticism coming out, but I think that judging the truth of something based off of the emotional affects it has on people is very stupid to be quite frank. Feelings and emotions can lie. They are temporary. They constantly change. They won't tell you what is true, but will rather just tell you how something makes you feel. Reason is the best tool to judge things by because it will not lie to  you and will stay true no matter how you are feeling--it is self-evident and objective. Secondly, I think that we need to make a distinction between the types of "Joys" involved. I feel more than qualified to speak on this since I've spent the majority of my pre-conversion life in Evangelical "Born-Again" crowds. From what I have observed, the joy that they experience honestly seems quite shallow and immature--just rooted in hyper-emotionalism. The reason for this is that it constantly needs to be fed. Instead of living a godly life and doing what God says, they spend more of their time trying to satisfy this hunger inside of them for more "joy" and oftentimes go to desperate means to do so. Many Evangelical Mega-Churches have been built because of this. And eventually, what they find out is that this need for "joy" can never be fully satisfied by the world, and they oftentimes see this as being extremely bad, don't know how to deal with pain or accept spiritual maturity, and in the worst case scenerio, despair and end up leaving Christianity altogether.

This is the joy of the demons. It is built upon hyper-emotionalism, leads people into despairing and blinds their eyes to true spiritual development and joy. True joy is not about feeling no pain or sadness--indeed, Jesus specifically tells us that we will suffer for Him constantly--but about accepting our struggles and sorrows in a submissive manner, learning from them, and even reflecting on them to learn how we could glorify God through them, and most of all, staying submitted to God throughout it all and thanking Him.

True joy produces humility and humbleness--and that brings me up to my next criticism of Evangelical "joy". I find that the Evangelical sense of pride oftentimes leads to a not-so-subtle sense of pridefulness and individualism. Many Evangelicals I've met who've matched your description of possessing that sense of Evangelical "joy" oftentimes begin to think that they do not need Church at all or any guidance from their fellow Christians because they see themselves as having their own special line with God and capable of working out their salvation on their own. This is the joy of the demons--subtle pride, a rejection of the Truth, blindness to true spiritual development, eventual despair etc. I wouldn't touch this joy with a forty foot pole.

Now, the true sense of joy--something I admittedly don't have yet--I observe among several of the older folks at my Orthodox Church who come from troubled countries and are close to dying. These people seem to be emotionally dying and full of troubles, yet, in a strange way, they have not despaired but have accepted their tribulations and offer them to God. Instead of trying to escape them with this shallow sense of happiness that constantly needs to be fed, they face them, learn from them, and come closer to God through them. Their sense of true joy doesn't cause them to become prideful or to leave the CHurch, but rather causes them to be extremely meek, quiet and humble, and come to the Church more often than anyone else. They truly seem content with their life, knowing that they need God more than ever and that there are things wrong in the world, but submissively handling them and turning to God. This is the true joy--the joy that I hope to attain. It is not shallow and prideful, but deep, beneficial for learning and produces humility and submissiveness to the Truth and Church.

Any sense of "joy" that produces pride and not humility and does not lead a person to the Church is the joy of the demons.

so this true joy of yours is actually being humbled by suffering.. it is completely senseless.

What you call senseless I call mature. It's about dealing with your problems and facing them opposed to trying to escape them or mask them with a shallow sense of hyper-emotional escapism.

My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?



Evolving-faith?  
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« Reply #67 on: January 17, 2013, 06:44:44 PM »

Let's look at Job for an example--a man whose legacy is built upon his faithfulness toward God during hardship--when he was enduring all of those tribulations, he didn't try to mask his suffering with emotional escapism nor did he try to change his circumstances, but he patiently endured it all, accepted it, and rather reflected upon it and used it to come closer to God.
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« Reply #68 on: January 17, 2013, 06:51:44 PM »

Let's look at Job for an example--a man whose legacy is built upon His faithfulness toward God during hardship--when he was enduring all of those tribulations, he didn't try to mask his suffering with emotional escapism nor did he try to change his circumstances, but he patiently endured it all, accepted it, and rather reflected upon it and used it to come closer to God.

What you mean by "emotional escapism" is probably overreacting (by today's standards), let's say pulling one's hair, tearing one's clothes, pouring ashes over one's head and dressing in sack-cloth. That was actually permitted, even prescribed by OT law (7 days for mourning).

That doesn't mean that Job would not have felt emotions like pain, anguish, despair, revolt and so on.   
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« Reply #69 on: January 17, 2013, 06:51:50 PM »

The question is, is that self contenance really joy?

I would apply the classic Orthodox standard to it; does it produce humbleness, humility and submission to the message of God only found within the Church? If the answer is yes, then yes, I would say it is really joy.

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Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?

I think it is more about being humble and submitted to God. You are full of life, but it is rather deeper. I find that this sense of joy can oftentimes be more impressive to people than even the loudest, most openly "joyous" person there is. If you read the New Testament or the Lives of the Saints, you will see that most devout people had more of an inner sense of joy. Fun fact: Jesus never laughed as far as we know.

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Is that the only joy for us?

I don't know

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Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?

Depends on what you mean by conforming and changing. We should conform to God and the faith no matter what the circumstances are and not try to change this at all, but what we should try to change is our vices. We should try to become more virtuous and faithful, changing ourselves for God.

Quote
Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

God's message doesn't need evolving. Jesus and the Church are the final revelation of Truth to mankind. The evolving we need is to live by this faith and no longer walk in wickedness.

How can you really know that the message of the Church is true? how can you know anything is true? how can you discern between truth and lie?Can you give an answer to that , that doesn't contain circular reasoning?

God failed when he gave us smile?
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« Reply #70 on: January 17, 2013, 07:00:40 PM »

How can you really know that the message of the Church is true? how can you know anything is true? how can you discern between truth and lie?

By using one's God-given faculties: mind & heart, reason & intuition/feelings, conscience, free will.
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« Reply #71 on: January 17, 2013, 07:04:28 PM »

The question is, is that self contenance really joy?

I would apply the classic Orthodox standard to it; does it produce humbleness, humility and submission to the message of God only found within the Church? If the answer is yes, then yes, I would say it is really joy.

Quote
Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?

I think it is more about being humble and submitted to God. You are full of life, but it is rather deeper. I find that this sense of joy can oftentimes be more impressive to people than even the loudest, most openly "joyous" person there is. If you read the New Testament or the Lives of the Saints, you will see that most devout people had more of an inner sense of joy. Fun fact: Jesus never laughed as far as we know.

Quote
Is that the only joy for us?

I don't know

Quote
Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?

Depends on what you mean by conforming and changing. We should conform to God and the faith no matter what the circumstances are and not try to change this at all, but what we should try to change is our vices. We should try to become more virtuous and faithful, changing ourselves for God.

Quote
Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

God's message doesn't need evolving. Jesus and the Church are the final revelation of Truth to mankind. The evolving we need is to live by this faith and no longer walk in wickedness.

How can you really know that the message of the Church is true? how can you know anything is true? how can you discern between truth and lie?Can you give an answer to that , that doesn't contain circular reasoning?

God failed when he gave us smile?
That is, more than anything (I think) a matter of faith.
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« Reply #72 on: January 17, 2013, 07:05:33 PM »

My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

There's nothing stagnant in overcoming the curve balls of life. One needs to accept how things are before they can change them, rather than escaping into la-la land. If life was meant to be a bed of roses, we would have no need for a Paraclete.

Shouldn't joy be more than self-contentment?

Life was meant to have the need of the Paraclete and be deprived of it, sounds a little bit sadistic.
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« Reply #73 on: January 17, 2013, 07:07:43 PM »

So are you saying that it's impossible to be emotionless?  Huh

Why would anyone want to be that?

You might strive to be dispassionate (free of vice - ataraktos, apathes), but not emotionless (without feeling - anaisthetos). 

agreed 100%. Some people are suffering from fear of emotion.
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« Reply #74 on: January 17, 2013, 07:07:56 PM »

How can you really know that the message of the Church is true? how can you know anything is true? how can you discern between truth and lie?

By using one's God-given faculties: mind & heart, reason & intuition/feelings, conscience, free will.

How do you know they are not betraying you?

Ok use them and show me that the Church is true without circular reasoning.
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« Reply #75 on: January 17, 2013, 07:08:59 PM »

One thing that I never heard when I was still a Protestant, but it makes a lot of sense, is that one cannot follow the King outside of His Kingdom.

which means? But I agree.
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« Reply #76 on: January 17, 2013, 07:10:42 PM »

My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

There's nothing stagnant in overcoming the curve balls of life. One needs to accept how things are before they can change them, rather than escaping into la-la land. If life was meant to be a bed of roses, we would have no need for a Paraclete.

Shouldn't joy be more than self-contentment?

Life was meant to have the need of the Paraclete and be deprived of it, sounds a little bit sadistic.
We are not deprived of the Paraclete.
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« Reply #77 on: January 17, 2013, 07:12:06 PM »

But who is more happier?

This is strictly personal... but I have issues with the concept of happiness. It implies happenstance, luck, fortunate conditions. Everyone can be happy when things are going their way. What happens when life turns around and gives you a big old bitchslap into next week? The happy-clappy highs are high, but the lows are respectively really, really low.

I prefer contentment, myself - being able to function, rather than getting the moody blues, despite what life throws at me, not because of it.

As for 'liberal Christians'... You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

well, if you have issues with happiness. Tell us according to your observations, who has more joy?

She said "the *concept* of happiness", and then explained what she meant.  Are "happiness" and the experience of "joy" identical?  Please explain.

Happiness: Result of happenings (things that happen).
Joy: Comes from your heart regardless.

Is it the purpose of a "religious system" to make us happy?  Is that the purpose of Christianity as expressed in Orthodoxy or Catholicism?

If not that, than what?

Your question seems to imply that you believe Christianity is a religious system.  I do not believe that it is, nor do I believe that temporal happiness is its purpose.  Perhaps I should have inserted the word "temporal" before "happy" in my post above.  I think Christianity is a relationship with a Person, that Person being Jesus Christ.  I think its purpose is to bring us, through knowledge, worship, and adoration of God to theosis and union with Him (please excuse my clumsy wording).  A result of this will be eternal joy with Him.  All assuming, of course, that we repent of our sins and don't end up eternally separated from Him.  Grin

what is this eternal joy?

you aare kidding right?
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« Reply #78 on: January 17, 2013, 07:13:01 PM »

My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

There's nothing stagnant in overcoming the curve balls of life. One needs to accept how things are before they can change them, rather than escaping into la-la land. If life was meant to be a bed of roses, we would have no need for a Paraclete.

Shouldn't joy be more than self-contentment?

Life was meant to have the need of the Paraclete and be deprived of it, sounds a little bit sadistic.
We are not deprived of the Paraclete.

It was his argument.We cannot need something we have.We only need what we miss.
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« Reply #79 on: January 17, 2013, 07:13:20 PM »

But who is more happier?

This is strictly personal... but I have issues with the concept of happiness. It implies happenstance, luck, fortunate conditions. Everyone can be happy when things are going their way. What happens when life turns around and gives you a big old bitchslap into next week? The happy-clappy highs are high, but the lows are respectively really, really low.

I prefer contentment, myself - being able to function, rather than getting the moody blues, despite what life throws at me, not because of it.

As for 'liberal Christians'... You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

well, if you have issues with happiness. Tell us according to your observations, who has more joy?

She said "the *concept* of happiness", and then explained what she meant.  Are "happiness" and the experience of "joy" identical?  Please explain.

Happiness: Result of happenings (things that happen).
Joy: Comes from your heart regardless.

Is it the purpose of a "religious system" to make us happy?  Is that the purpose of Christianity as expressed in Orthodoxy or Catholicism?

No. Religious systems only care about themselves. Not about others. They want to survive even at the expense of people's happiness and even lives.

You are not far from the kingdom of truth.

let's hope so/
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« Reply #80 on: January 17, 2013, 07:13:43 PM »

My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

There's nothing stagnant in overcoming the curve balls of life. One needs to accept how things are before they can change them, rather than escaping into la-la land. If life was meant to be a bed of roses, we would have no need for a Paraclete.

Shouldn't joy be more than self-contentment?

Life was meant to have the need of the Paraclete and be deprived of it, sounds a little bit sadistic.

What you believe that joy should be and what it actually is don't have to coincide.

Jesus Christ warned repeatedly that those who follow him would have to bear their own crosses, and then reassured them that He would send the Paraclete (=Consoler) in his stead after His Ascension.

Don't know about you, but all this talk of crosses and needing consolation makes me think life is meant to be a pretty hardcore affair.
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« Reply #81 on: January 17, 2013, 07:14:04 PM »

But who is more happier?

This is strictly personal... but I have issues with the concept of happiness. It implies happenstance, luck, fortunate conditions. Everyone can be happy when things are going their way. What happens when life turns around and gives you a big old bitchslap into next week? The happy-clappy highs are high, but the lows are respectively really, really low.

I prefer contentment, myself - being able to function, rather than getting the moody blues, despite what life throws at me, not because of it.

As for 'liberal Christians'... You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

well, if you have issues with happiness. Tell us according to your observations, who has more joy?

She said "the *concept* of happiness", and then explained what she meant.  Are "happiness" and the experience of "joy" identical?  Please explain.

Happiness: Result of happenings (things that happen).
Joy: Comes from your heart regardless.

Is it the purpose of a "religious system" to make us happy?  Is that the purpose of Christianity as expressed in Orthodoxy or Catholicism?

If not that, than what?

Your question seems to imply that you believe Christianity is a religious system.  I do not believe that it is, nor do I believe that temporal happiness is its purpose.  Perhaps I should have inserted the word "temporal" before "happy" in my post above.  I think Christianity is a relationship with a Person, that Person being Jesus Christ.  I think its purpose is to bring us, through knowledge, worship, and adoration of God to theosis and union with Him (please excuse my clumsy wording).  A result of this will be eternal joy with Him.  All assuming, of course, that we repent of our sins and don't end up eternally separated from Him.  Grin

what is this eternal joy?

you aare kidding right?

no.

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« Reply #82 on: January 17, 2013, 07:15:36 PM »

Ok now dear Orthodox brethen and catholic evil brothers Smiley

How many of you can firmly state and say that you are born again, spirit filled, saved, guided by the Holy Spirit?

Let's see.

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« Reply #83 on: January 17, 2013, 07:16:25 PM »

What is the positiveness of legalism, dogma and ritualism?

How does one get to live a more satisfying and vivid life?

You can never escape "legalism", "dogma", or "ritualism".

How to find a "satisfying" life?

Find something you would be willing to die for or kill for. Literally.

In the end, this is the message of the Gospel. And what seems to animate anyone worth talking to for more than ten minutes.


agreed 100%
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« Reply #84 on: January 17, 2013, 07:18:12 PM »

My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

There's nothing stagnant in overcoming the curve balls of life. One needs to accept how things are before they can change them, rather than escaping into la-la land. If life was meant to be a bed of roses, we would have no need for a Paraclete.

Shouldn't joy be more than self-contentment?

Life was meant to have the need of the Paraclete and be deprived of it, sounds a little bit sadistic.
We are not deprived of the Paraclete.

It was his argument.We cannot need something we have.We only need what we miss.
Or that, which we do not wish to recieve.
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« Reply #85 on: January 17, 2013, 07:21:32 PM »

My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

There's nothing stagnant in overcoming the curve balls of life. One needs to accept how things are before they can change them, rather than escaping into la-la land. If life was meant to be a bed of roses, we would have no need for a Paraclete.

Shouldn't joy be more than self-contentment?

Life was meant to have the need of the Paraclete and be deprived of it, sounds a little bit sadistic.

What you believe that joy should be and what it actually is don't have to coincide.

Jesus Christ warned repeatedly that those who follow him would have to bear their own crosses, and then reassured them that He would send the Paraclete (=Consoler) in his stead after His Ascension.

Don't know about you, but all this talk of crosses and needing consolation makes me think life is meant to be a pretty hardcore affair.

So God really deprived the world for thousands of years of His presence, indwelling, consolation,love etc?That sounds like a sadistic God doesn't it?

I think this types of Christians would say that Christ died in their places and suffered for them in their place.

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« Reply #86 on: January 17, 2013, 07:22:08 PM »

My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

There's nothing stagnant in overcoming the curve balls of life. One needs to accept how things are before they can change them, rather than escaping into la-la land. If life was meant to be a bed of roses, we would have no need for a Paraclete.

Shouldn't joy be more than self-contentment?

Life was meant to have the need of the Paraclete and be deprived of it, sounds a little bit sadistic.

What you believe that joy should be and what it actually is don't have to coincide.

Jesus Christ warned repeatedly that those who follow him would have to bear their own crosses, and then reassured them that He would send the Paraclete (=Consoler) in his stead after His Ascension.

Don't know about you, but all this talk of crosses and needing consolation makes me think life is meant to be a pretty hardcore affair.





Which means if you are happy, then he will do everything to make you miserable?
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« Reply #87 on: January 17, 2013, 07:23:10 PM »

My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

There's nothing stagnant in overcoming the curve balls of life. One needs to accept how things are before they can change them, rather than escaping into la-la land. If life was meant to be a bed of roses, we would have no need for a Paraclete.

Shouldn't joy be more than self-contentment?

Life was meant to have the need of the Paraclete and be deprived of it, sounds a little bit sadistic.
We are not deprived of the Paraclete.

It was his argument.We cannot need something we have.We only need what we miss.
Or that, which we do not wish to recieve.

I get it , it's always us.

We are the ones that actually desire hell and want to be tortured for eternity but than again no one does.Man oh man!
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« Reply #88 on: January 17, 2013, 07:24:28 PM »

My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

There's nothing stagnant in overcoming the curve balls of life. One needs to accept how things are before they can change them, rather than escaping into la-la land. If life was meant to be a bed of roses, we would have no need for a Paraclete.

Shouldn't joy be more than self-contentment?

Life was meant to have the need of the Paraclete and be deprived of it, sounds a little bit sadistic.

What you believe that joy should be and what it actually is don't have to coincide.

Jesus Christ warned repeatedly that those who follow him would have to bear their own crosses, and then reassured them that He would send the Paraclete (=Consoler) in his stead after His Ascension.

Don't know about you, but all this talk of crosses and needing consolation makes me think life is meant to be a pretty hardcore affair.





Which means if you are happy, then he will do everything to make you miserable?

Doesn't that sound a bit sadistic?
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Romaios
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« Reply #89 on: January 17, 2013, 07:25:37 PM »

How do you know they are not betraying you?

I don't - I'm certainly not infallible. But there must be other people one can trust.

Ok use them and show me that the Church is true without circular reasoning.

Well, you see - that's a lifetime's work and everyone needs to sort it out for himself.

You can take it as a 'leap of faith'. Trust may actually be a step forward to get you out of a vicious circle instead of making you its prisoner. If I tried to convince you of anything, you could always suspect me of proselytizing/ulterior motives. Last, but not least - I might not be 100% convinced myself.

In the old understanding, faith (emunah) is not as much being convinced of a set of metaphysical propositions, but steadfast abiding in a covenant or keeping one's word (the things vowed at Baptism, for instance). 
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 07:32:27 PM by Romaios » Logged
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