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Offline FlickFlack

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Religious Systems
« on: January 17, 2013, 06:47:19 AM »
I've always been amazed by christians who firmly said that they follow God independently, are born-again, Spirit-filled,Saved without any religious system.I have a few acquaintances who are like this and from outside they seem happy.My question is , are those category of people happy,joyful, satisfied, positive?Are those who worship God through religious systems happy,joyful,satisfied, positive?And most importantly who is more happier.I would like people from this two categories to say how and why.Thanks.
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Offline Arachne

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2013, 08:34:59 AM »
There are (a lot of) people for whom system and spirituality are mutually exclusive, and any attempt at organisation invalidates spiritual claims. No, I don't get it either. While it is certainly possible to lose track of the spirit in the attempt to follow the letter, that is far from the rule, at least with the people I know. Just winging it feels like having to reinvent the wheel every single time, and so having no time to advance beyond that.
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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2013, 10:29:17 AM »
But who is more happier?

What kind of spirituality does one need to leed to be happy?

What do you think of those who say they have a personal relationship with Jesus and don't believe in rituals?

Those seem more happy than us :).

I must say that kind of philosophy attracts me a lot.

Born-Again, Spirit Filled, Saved, a Personal relationship with Christ.

Is anyone here under this sign?I would like to get to know something from someone like that.
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2013, 10:52:19 AM »
I don't understand why somebody thinks that you can't have a personal relationship with God and still be orthodox. We have thousands of people who have had a personal relationship with God. We don't need to turn all charismatic to do that.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2013, 10:54:19 AM »
Quote
What do you think of those who say they have a personal relationship with Jesus and don't believe in rituals?

Those seem more happy than us Smiley.

I must say that kind of philosophy attracts me a lot.

Born-Again, Spirit Filled, Saved, a Personal relationship with Christ.

Is anyone here under this sign?I would like to get to know something from someone like that.

The turnover rate from modern "happy-clappy" churches is quite high. In my neck of the woods, they change their stripes, names and logos about every couple of years or so, either as a marketing exercise, or because of fragmentation of the original group. There is no stability in them. The "feel-good" factor is temporary and fleeting, like the satisfaction we get from eating junk food. Fun when it's happening, regret and emptiness when the hormones rebalance.
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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2013, 11:41:33 AM »
I don't understand why somebody thinks that you can't have a personal relationship with God and still be orthodox. We have thousands of people who have had a personal relationship with God. We don't need to turn all charismatic to do that.

I didn't say that.I just copied a line from someone who said the exact same words about himself from another non-orthodox forum.

I like vivid and charismatic experiences of christianity.

Anyway this thread is about those who worship God/Christ independently and those who do it through religious systems.My rephrased question is what are the advantages and disadvantages to both of them?
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Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2013, 11:52:14 AM »
The devil can fake "vivid and charismatic experiences"...he cannot fake true repentance and love for God and all creatures. Seeking such experiences is the fastest way to delusion.

Is it fair to say (since I am not Orthodox) the "charismatic" movement has not made its way into Orthodoxy as in every Western form of Christianity including Roman Catholicism?
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Offline LBK

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2013, 11:52:51 AM »
I don't understand why somebody thinks that you can't have a personal relationship with God and still be orthodox. We have thousands of people who have had a personal relationship with God. We don't need to turn all charismatic to do that.

I didn't say that.I just copied a line from someone who said the exact same words about himself from another non-orthodox forum.

I like vivid and charismatic experiences of christianity.

Anyway this thread is about those who worship God/Christ independently and those who do it through religious systems.My rephrased question is what are the advantages and disadvantages to both of them?

Your profile says you're Orthodox by baptism. Wouldn't it make more sense to seek and learn what your Church teaches and believes, and has done so since the Apostles walked the earth, rather than to chase after the shadows which are today's myriad of "charismatic" groups (each with its own version of the "Truth"), which are here today and gone tomorrow?
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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2013, 11:57:23 AM »
I don't understand why somebody thinks that you can't have a personal relationship with God and still be orthodox. We have thousands of people who have had a personal relationship with God. We don't need to turn all charismatic to do that.

I didn't say that.I just copied a line from someone who said the exact same words about himself from another non-orthodox forum.

I like vivid and charismatic experiences of christianity.

Anyway this thread is about those who worship God/Christ independently and those who do it through religious systems.My rephrased question is what are the advantages and disadvantages to both of them?

Your profile says you're Orthodox by baptism. Wouldn't it make more sense to seek and learn what your Church teaches and believes, and has done so since the Apostles walked the earth, rather than to chase after the shadows which are today's myriad of "charismatic" groups (each with its own version of the "Truth"), which are here today and gone tomorrow?

What makes you think I haven't?

I did not meant the denomination.I like full of life things.I think a Christian with a full of life expression is very appreciative.Don't you?I see you are trying to cause distraction on all my threads with a switch and bait thing?Why?That makes me think if I want to continue taking your posts in considerance.
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2013, 11:59:02 AM »
My biggest objection to "charismatics" is that you have to have a particular kind of experience (which they define) in order to be considered a Real Christian (tm).
"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2013, 12:03:49 PM »
I don't understand why somebody thinks that you can't have a personal relationship with God and still be orthodox. We have thousands of people who have had a personal relationship with God. We don't need to turn all charismatic to do that.

I didn't say that.I just copied a line from someone who said the exact same words about himself from another non-orthodox forum.

I like vivid and charismatic experiences of christianity.

Anyway this thread is about those who worship God/Christ independently and those who do it through religious systems.My rephrased question is what are the advantages and disadvantages to both of them?

Forgive me, I didn't mean to offend you. Your post just sounded that way.
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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2013, 12:05:32 PM »
The devil can fake "vivid and charismatic experiences"...he cannot fake true repentance and love for God and all creatures. Seeking such experiences is the fastest way to delusion.

Is it fair to say (since I am not Orthodox) the "charismatic" movement has not made its way into Orthodoxy as in every Western form of Christianity including Roman Catholicism?

I seek and appreciate full things.. full vivid things.. and I get some of those vibes from liberal Christians.. though, I am more interested in the ups and downs of this two types of worship.

I didn't mean the charismatic denomination, but liberal Christians.



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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2013, 12:07:00 PM »
I don't understand why somebody thinks that you can't have a personal relationship with God and still be orthodox. We have thousands of people who have had a personal relationship with God. We don't need to turn all charismatic to do that.

I didn't say that.I just copied a line from someone who said the exact same words about himself from another non-orthodox forum.

I like vivid and charismatic experiences of christianity.

Anyway this thread is about those who worship God/Christ independently and those who do it through religious systems.My rephrased question is what are the advantages and disadvantages to both of them?

Forgive me, I didn't mean to offend you. Your post just sounded that way.

Stay calm no offence taken.I am hardly offended, esspecially by sincere people.You can even give me the meanest insults and i'll appreciate you for your sincerity[speaking in general terms].
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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2013, 12:11:30 PM »
There are (a lot of) people for whom system and spirituality are mutually exclusive, and any attempt at organisation invalidates spiritual claims. No, I don't get it either. While it is certainly possible to lose track of the spirit in the attempt to follow the letter, that is far from the rule, at least with the people I know. Just winging it feels like having to reinvent the wheel every single time, and so having no time to advance beyond that.

Yes the Legalism of the Church seems to cause more death and craftiness, having always to submit to ritualism and dogma..  What I appreciate at those type of liberal Christians is their conviction, their liberty and their vivid experiences..

What is the positiveness of legalism, dogma and ritualism?

How does one get to live a more satisfying and vivid life?
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2013, 12:14:43 PM »
Quote
What is the positiveness of legalism, dogma and ritualism?

Well, among other things, it prevents you from splitting into 40.000 different denomination.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with rituals, as long they are not empty.
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Offline theistgal

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2013, 12:25:09 PM »
As those who've followed my posting history here and elsewhere may know, I have gone back and forth from atheism to theism at least 3 times in my life (so far!).

Each time, I was repelled from theism by an overemphasis on theological rituals and minutia (totally my own fault btw, I don't blame anyone but me for my sins!); and when I eventually come back I'm drawn in not by any particular "system" but by some holy person I encounter who's living the Gospel and obviously loving God. Last time it was the late great "Internet Monk" Michael Spencer, who I'm sure many of you remember.

So I'll start out fresh with Jesus Christ at the center and then the religious "system" that helps me keep Him there. Which for me seems more and more to be some form of Eastern Christianity. Though I can see how others may find another "system" that works better for them, so I try not to judge too much. Especially since I know when I start judging too much, that's usually when my next bout of atheism starts brewing!
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Offline jmbejdl

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2013, 12:25:23 PM »
I don't understand why somebody thinks that you can't have a personal relationship with God and still be orthodox. We have thousands of people who have had a personal relationship with God. We don't need to turn all charismatic to do that.

I didn't say that.I just copied a line from someone who said the exact same words about himself from another non-orthodox forum.

I like vivid and charismatic experiences of christianity.

Anyway this thread is about those who worship God/Christ independently and those who do it through religious systems.My rephrased question is what are the advantages and disadvantages to both of them?

Your profile says you're Orthodox by baptism. Wouldn't it make more sense to seek and learn what your Church teaches and believes, and has done so since the Apostles walked the earth, rather than to chase after the shadows which are today's myriad of "charismatic" groups (each with its own version of the "Truth"), which are here today and gone tomorrow?

What makes you think I haven't?

I did not meant the denomination.I like full of life things.I think a Christian with a full of life expression is very appreciative.Don't you?I see you are trying to cause distraction on all my threads with a switch and bait thing?Why?That makes me think if I want to continue taking your posts in considerance.

If this is what you meant, and I've no reason to think otherwise, then I'd say that the most 'vivid and charismatic' experiences of Christianity I've had have come within Orthodoxy. Indeed had it not been for the sincere, loving, joyful and generous example of an Orthodox monk (and you couldn't get more part of a 'religious system' as you put it than in monasticism I'd say) in Romania, I can honestly say that I'd be highly unlikely to be Orthodox today. Since converting I can say that I have seen far more examples of genuine Christian faith in Orthodoxy. Not everyone, of course, but enough to be absolutely convinced of the Truth of Orthodoxy. I can't say I ever had the same experience of genuineness  with the more 'happy clappy' Christians at university - their happiness always seemed decidedly fake. To be honest it was often rather reminiscent of self-medicated euphoria.

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We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

Offline Arachne

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2013, 12:29:38 PM »
But who is more happier?

This is strictly personal... but I have issues with the concept of happiness. It implies happenstance, luck, fortunate conditions. Everyone can be happy when things are going their way. What happens when life turns around and gives you a big old bitchslap into next week? The happy-clappy highs are high, but the lows are respectively really, really low.

I prefer contentment, myself - being able to function, rather than getting the moody blues, despite what life throws at me, not because of it.

As for 'liberal Christians'... You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2013, 12:49:35 PM »
The happy-clappy highs are high, but the lows are respectively really, really low.
Emotions are transitory - so you feel good. Then what?

Quote
As for 'liberal Christians'... You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

Agreed.
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Offline tweety234

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2013, 02:51:36 PM »
But who is more happier?

This is strictly personal... but I have issues with the concept of happiness. It implies happenstance, luck, fortunate conditions. Everyone can be happy when things are going their way. What happens when life turns around and gives you a big old bitchslap into next week? The happy-clappy highs are high, but the lows are respectively really, really low.

I prefer contentment, myself - being able to function, rather than getting the moody blues, despite what life throws at me, not because of it.

As for 'liberal Christians'... You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

well, if you have issues with happiness. Tell us according to your observations, who has more joy?
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2013, 03:06:43 PM »
But who is more happier?

This is strictly personal... but I have issues with the concept of happiness. It implies happenstance, luck, fortunate conditions. Everyone can be happy when things are going their way. What happens when life turns around and gives you a big old bitchslap into next week? The happy-clappy highs are high, but the lows are respectively really, really low.

I prefer contentment, myself - being able to function, rather than getting the moody blues, despite what life throws at me, not because of it.

As for 'liberal Christians'... You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

well, if you have issues with happiness. Tell us according to your observations, who has more joy?

She said "the *concept* of happiness", and then explained what she meant.  Are "happiness" and the experience of "joy" identical?  Please explain.
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2013, 03:12:28 PM »
Are "happiness" and the experience of "joy" identical?  Please explain.

My guess? No they are not the same thing, but people use the words as if they were.
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Offline tweety234

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2013, 03:13:58 PM »
But who is more happier?

This is strictly personal... but I have issues with the concept of happiness. It implies happenstance, luck, fortunate conditions. Everyone can be happy when things are going their way. What happens when life turns around and gives you a big old bitchslap into next week? The happy-clappy highs are high, but the lows are respectively really, really low.

I prefer contentment, myself - being able to function, rather than getting the moody blues, despite what life throws at me, not because of it.

As for 'liberal Christians'... You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

well, if you have issues with happiness. Tell us according to your observations, who has more joy?

She said "the *concept* of happiness", and then explained what she meant.  Are "happiness" and the experience of "joy" identical?  Please explain.

Happiness: Result of happenings (things that happen).
Joy: Comes from your heart regardless.
“God has no religion.”
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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2013, 03:19:38 PM »
Happiness: Result of happenings (things that happen).

Ay-yup. In older texts, especially before the 18th century, 'happy' is used as a synonym for 'fortunate'.

Joy: Comes from your heart regardless.

And doesn't even have to be outwardly manifest (unless one knows what to look for), so practically impossible to measure and compare between individuals.
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2013, 03:27:42 PM »
But who is more happier?

This is strictly personal... but I have issues with the concept of happiness. It implies happenstance, luck, fortunate conditions. Everyone can be happy when things are going their way. What happens when life turns around and gives you a big old bitchslap into next week? The happy-clappy highs are high, but the lows are respectively really, really low.

I prefer contentment, myself - being able to function, rather than getting the moody blues, despite what life throws at me, not because of it.

As for 'liberal Christians'... You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

well, if you have issues with happiness. Tell us according to your observations, who has more joy?

She said "the *concept* of happiness", and then explained what she meant.  Are "happiness" and the experience of "joy" identical?  Please explain.

Happiness: Result of happenings (things that happen).
Joy: Comes from your heart regardless.

Is it the purpose of a "religious system" to make us happy?  Is that the purpose of Christianity as expressed in Orthodoxy or Catholicism?
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Offline Wyatt

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2013, 03:29:08 PM »
One thing that I never heard when I was still a Protestant, but it makes a lot of sense, is that one cannot follow the King outside of His Kingdom.

Offline tweety234

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2013, 03:31:49 PM »
But who is more happier?

This is strictly personal... but I have issues with the concept of happiness. It implies happenstance, luck, fortunate conditions. Everyone can be happy when things are going their way. What happens when life turns around and gives you a big old bitchslap into next week? The happy-clappy highs are high, but the lows are respectively really, really low.

I prefer contentment, myself - being able to function, rather than getting the moody blues, despite what life throws at me, not because of it.

As for 'liberal Christians'... You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

well, if you have issues with happiness. Tell us according to your observations, who has more joy?

She said "the *concept* of happiness", and then explained what she meant.  Are "happiness" and the experience of "joy" identical?  Please explain.

Happiness: Result of happenings (things that happen).
Joy: Comes from your heart regardless.

Is it the purpose of a "religious system" to make us happy?  Is that the purpose of Christianity as expressed in Orthodoxy or Catholicism?

No. Religious systems only care about themselves. Not about others. They want to survive even at the expense of people's happiness and even lives.
“God has no religion.”
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2013, 03:34:00 PM »
NVM
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 03:36:42 PM by Romaios »

Offline J Michael

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2013, 03:40:37 PM »
But who is more happier?

This is strictly personal... but I have issues with the concept of happiness. It implies happenstance, luck, fortunate conditions. Everyone can be happy when things are going their way. What happens when life turns around and gives you a big old bitchslap into next week? The happy-clappy highs are high, but the lows are respectively really, really low.

I prefer contentment, myself - being able to function, rather than getting the moody blues, despite what life throws at me, not because of it.

As for 'liberal Christians'... You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

well, if you have issues with happiness. Tell us according to your observations, who has more joy?

She said "the *concept* of happiness", and then explained what she meant.  Are "happiness" and the experience of "joy" identical?  Please explain.

Happiness: Result of happenings (things that happen).
Joy: Comes from your heart regardless.

Is it the purpose of a "religious system" to make us happy?  Is that the purpose of Christianity as expressed in Orthodoxy or Catholicism?

No. Religious systems only care about themselves. Not about others. They want to survive even at the expense of people's happiness and even lives.

Is Christianity as expressed in Orthodoxy and Catholicism a religious system?
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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2013, 03:54:02 PM »
But who is more happier?

This is strictly personal... but I have issues with the concept of happiness. It implies happenstance, luck, fortunate conditions. Everyone can be happy when things are going their way. What happens when life turns around and gives you a big old bitchslap into next week? The happy-clappy highs are high, but the lows are respectively really, really low.

I prefer contentment, myself - being able to function, rather than getting the moody blues, despite what life throws at me, not because of it.

As for 'liberal Christians'... You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

well, if you have issues with happiness. Tell us according to your observations, who has more joy?

She said "the *concept* of happiness", and then explained what she meant.  Are "happiness" and the experience of "joy" identical?  Please explain.

Happiness: Result of happenings (things that happen).
Joy: Comes from your heart regardless.

Is it the purpose of a "religious system" to make us happy?  Is that the purpose of Christianity as expressed in Orthodoxy or Catholicism?

If not that, than what?
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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2013, 04:05:22 PM »
Joy is the highest form of Happiness.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2013, 04:11:15 PM »
But who is more happier?

This is strictly personal... but I have issues with the concept of happiness. It implies happenstance, luck, fortunate conditions. Everyone can be happy when things are going their way. What happens when life turns around and gives you a big old bitchslap into next week? The happy-clappy highs are high, but the lows are respectively really, really low.

I prefer contentment, myself - being able to function, rather than getting the moody blues, despite what life throws at me, not because of it.

As for 'liberal Christians'... You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

well, if you have issues with happiness. Tell us according to your observations, who has more joy?

She said "the *concept* of happiness", and then explained what she meant.  Are "happiness" and the experience of "joy" identical?  Please explain.

Happiness: Result of happenings (things that happen).
Joy: Comes from your heart regardless.

Is it the purpose of a "religious system" to make us happy?  Is that the purpose of Christianity as expressed in Orthodoxy or Catholicism?

If not that, than what?

Your question seems to imply that you believe Christianity is a religious system.  I do not believe that it is, nor do I believe that temporal happiness is its purpose.  Perhaps I should have inserted the word "temporal" before "happy" in my post above.  I think Christianity is a relationship with a Person, that Person being Jesus Christ.  I think its purpose is to bring us, through knowledge, worship, and adoration of God to theosis and union with Him (please excuse my clumsy wording).  A result of this will be eternal joy with Him.  All assuming, of course, that we repent of our sins and don't end up eternally separated from Him.  ;D
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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2013, 04:39:18 PM »
But who is more happier?

This is strictly personal... but I have issues with the concept of happiness. It implies happenstance, luck, fortunate conditions. Everyone can be happy when things are going their way. What happens when life turns around and gives you a big old bitchslap into next week? The happy-clappy highs are high, but the lows are respectively really, really low.

I prefer contentment, myself - being able to function, rather than getting the moody blues, despite what life throws at me, not because of it.

As for 'liberal Christians'... You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

well, if you have issues with happiness. Tell us according to your observations, who has more joy?

She said "the *concept* of happiness", and then explained what she meant.  Are "happiness" and the experience of "joy" identical?  Please explain.

Happiness: Result of happenings (things that happen).
Joy: Comes from your heart regardless.

Is it the purpose of a "religious system" to make us happy?  Is that the purpose of Christianity as expressed in Orthodoxy or Catholicism?

If not that, than what?

Your question seems to imply that you believe Christianity is a religious system.  I do not believe that it is, nor do I believe that temporal happiness is its purpose.  Perhaps I should have inserted the word "temporal" before "happy" in my post above.  I think Christianity is a relationship with a Person, that Person being Jesus Christ.  I think its purpose is to bring us, through knowledge, worship, and adoration of God to theosis and union with Him (please excuse my clumsy wording).  A result of this will be eternal joy with Him.  All assuming, of course, that we repent of our sins and don't end up eternally separated from Him.  ;D

what is this eternal joy?
Right here, right now.

Offline J Michael

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2013, 04:43:34 PM »
But who is more happier?

This is strictly personal... but I have issues with the concept of happiness. It implies happenstance, luck, fortunate conditions. Everyone can be happy when things are going their way. What happens when life turns around and gives you a big old bitchslap into next week? The happy-clappy highs are high, but the lows are respectively really, really low.

I prefer contentment, myself - being able to function, rather than getting the moody blues, despite what life throws at me, not because of it.

As for 'liberal Christians'... You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

well, if you have issues with happiness. Tell us according to your observations, who has more joy?

She said "the *concept* of happiness", and then explained what she meant.  Are "happiness" and the experience of "joy" identical?  Please explain.

Happiness: Result of happenings (things that happen).
Joy: Comes from your heart regardless.

Is it the purpose of a "religious system" to make us happy?  Is that the purpose of Christianity as expressed in Orthodoxy or Catholicism?

If not that, than what?

Your question seems to imply that you believe Christianity is a religious system.  I do not believe that it is, nor do I believe that temporal happiness is its purpose.  Perhaps I should have inserted the word "temporal" before "happy" in my post above.  I think Christianity is a relationship with a Person, that Person being Jesus Christ.  I think its purpose is to bring us, through knowledge, worship, and adoration of God to theosis and union with Him (please excuse my clumsy wording).  A result of this will be eternal joy with Him.  All assuming, of course, that we repent of our sins and don't end up eternally separated from Him.  ;D

what is this eternal joy?

I'll get back to you about that--hopefully. ;) ;)
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2013, 05:24:26 PM »
There are (a lot of) people for whom system and spirituality

Nothing is without a system.

No non-trivial system can be made completely transparent.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2013, 05:25:16 PM »
But who is more happier?

This is strictly personal... but I have issues with the concept of happiness. It implies happenstance, luck, fortunate conditions. Everyone can be happy when things are going their way. What happens when life turns around and gives you a big old bitchslap into next week? The happy-clappy highs are high, but the lows are respectively really, really low.

I prefer contentment, myself - being able to function, rather than getting the moody blues, despite what life throws at me, not because of it.

As for 'liberal Christians'... You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

well, if you have issues with happiness. Tell us according to your observations, who has more joy?

She said "the *concept* of happiness", and then explained what she meant.  Are "happiness" and the experience of "joy" identical?  Please explain.

Happiness: Result of happenings (things that happen).
Joy: Comes from your heart regardless.

Is it the purpose of a "religious system" to make us happy?  Is that the purpose of Christianity as expressed in Orthodoxy or Catholicism?

No. Religious systems only care about themselves. Not about others. They want to survive even at the expense of people's happiness and even lives.

You are not far from the kingdom of truth.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2013, 05:28:09 PM »
The "feel-good" factor is temporary and fleeting, like the satisfaction we get from eating junk food. Fun when it's happening, regret and emptiness when the hormones rebalance.

This is a poor analogy and rather incorrect. I can often eat junk food and feel satisfied by it and never have some "come down".

It would be hard to come up with a mode of being in which persons engage which isn't fleeting, so really nothing here is much of a starter argumentwise.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2013, 05:30:52 PM »
But who is more happier?

Happiness is nothing to strive for. It is about the most ridiculous of manner of being one can engage in.

And usually, when people discuss some happiness ratio, they beg the question. One must first be clear what "happiness" is. And frankly, when I hear most folks' definitions, well I'll pass.
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2013, 05:44:45 PM »
Firstly, this may just be my inner Scholasticism coming out, but I think that judging the truth of something based off of the emotional affects it has on people is very stupid to be quite frank. Feelings and emotions can lie. They are temporary. They constantly change. They won't tell you what is true, but will rather just tell you how something makes you feel. Reason is the best tool to judge things by because it will not lie to  you and will stay true no matter how you are feeling--it is self-evident and objective. Secondly, I think that we need to make a distinction between the types of "Joys" involved. I feel more than qualified to speak on this since I've spent the majority of my pre-conversion life in Evangelical "Born-Again" crowds. From what I have observed, the joy that they experience honestly seems quite shallow and immature--just rooted in hyper-emotionalism. The reason for this is that it constantly needs to be fed. Instead of living a godly life and doing what God says, they spend more of their time trying to satisfy this hunger inside of them for more "joy" and oftentimes go to desperate means to do so. Many Evangelical Mega-Churches have been built because of this. And eventually, what they find out is that this need for "joy" can never be fully satisfied by the world, and they oftentimes see this as being extremely bad, don't know how to deal with pain or accept spiritual maturity, and in the worst case scenerio, despair and end up leaving Christianity altogether.

This is the joy of the demons. It is built upon hyper-emotionalism, leads people into despairing and blinds their eyes to true spiritual development and joy. True joy is not about feeling no pain or sadness--indeed, Jesus specifically tells us that we will suffer for Him constantly--but about accepting our struggles and sorrows in a submissive manner, learning from them, and even reflecting on them to learn how we could glorify God through them, and most of all, staying submitted to God throughout it all and thanking Him.

True joy produces humility and humbleness--and that brings me up to my next criticism of Evangelical "joy". I find that the Evangelical sense of pride oftentimes leads to a not-so-subtle sense of pridefulness and individualism. Many Evangelicals I've met who've matched your description of possessing that sense of Evangelical "joy" oftentimes begin to think that they do not need Church at all or any guidance from their fellow Christians because they see themselves as having their own special line with God and capable of working out their salvation on their own. This is the joy of the demons--subtle pride, a rejection of the Truth, blindness to true spiritual development, eventual despair etc. I wouldn't touch this joy with a forty foot pole.

Now, the true sense of joy--something I admittedly don't have yet--I observe among several of the older folks at my Orthodox Church who come from troubled countries and are close to dying. These people seem to be emotionally dying and full of troubles, yet, in a strange way, they have not despaired but have accepted their tribulations and offer them to God. Instead of trying to escape them with this shallow sense of happiness that constantly needs to be fed, they face them, learn from them, and come closer to God through them. Their sense of true joy doesn't cause them to become prideful or to leave the CHurch, but rather causes them to be extremely meek, quiet and humble, and come to the Church more often than anyone else. They truly seem content with their life, knowing that they need God more than ever and that there are things wrong in the world, but submissively handling them and turning to God. This is the true joy--the joy that I hope to attain. It is not shallow and prideful, but deep, beneficial for learning and produces humility and submissiveness to the Truth and Church.

Any sense of "joy" that produces pride and not humility and does not lead a person to the Church is the joy of the demons.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 05:51:53 PM by JamesR »
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2013, 05:44:59 PM »
My biggest objection to "charismatics" is that you have to have a particular kind of experience (which they define) in order to be considered a Real Christian (tm).

And in the world of late modernity, how is this any different from any other "group"? It is probably impossible to even have a discussion without some recourse to "an experience" and no significant agreement among persons is likely possible unless their "experiences" are of a similar kind.

Whether if this has been otherwise in other times, I cannot say with certainty.

If you don't believe the above, I suggest you read the "conversion" stories and show me one of a singular nature.

I think your problem with "charismatics" is that they have a less sophisticated and pliable set of experiences which one can have which allow one to be part of the group.

It would seem to me thinking out loud that the radical experience one must have in Orthodoxy is one of revelation. Then I think if someone were to take up a study of conversion stories to Orthodoxy and the lives of those who are involved in their parishes, you could probably refine how revelation must be experienced and maintained. Other forms of experience are likely in play as well.
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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2013, 05:45:20 PM »
But who is more happier?

Happiness is nothing to strive for. It is about the most ridiculous of manner of being one can engage in.

And usually, when people discuss some happiness ratio, they beg the question. One must first be clear what "happiness" is. And frankly, when I hear most folks' definitions, well I'll pass.

than what is?
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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2013, 05:47:11 PM »
@JamesR

The christian God is a feeling.


Right here, right now.

Offline J Michael

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2013, 05:47:47 PM »
@JamesR

The christian God is a feeling.




 ??? ???
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2013, 05:47:53 PM »
They constantly change.

Yes they do, no matter what antecedent you offer for they.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2013, 05:54:11 PM »
What is the positiveness of legalism, dogma and ritualism?

How does one get to live a more satisfying and vivid life?

You can never escape "legalism", "dogma", or "ritualism".

How to find a "satisfying" life?

Find something you would be willing to die for or kill for. Literally.

In the end, this is the message of the Gospel. And what seems to animate anyone worth talking to for more than ten minutes.
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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #45 on: January 17, 2013, 05:54:44 PM »
Firstly, this may just be my inner Scholasticism coming out, but I think that judging the truth of something based off of the emotional affects it has on people is very stupid to be quite frank. Feelings and emotions can lie. They are temporary. They constantly change. They won't tell you what is true, but will rather just tell you how something makes you feel. Reason is the best tool to judge things by because it will not lie to  you and will stay true no matter how you are feeling--it is self-evident and objective. Secondly, I think that we need to make a distinction between the types of "Joys" involved. I feel more than qualified to speak on this since I've spent the majority of my pre-conversion life in Evangelical "Born-Again" crowds. From what I have observed, the joy that they experience honestly seems quite shallow and immature--just rooted in hyper-emotionalism. The reason for this is that it constantly needs to be fed. Instead of living a godly life and doing what God says, they spend more of their time trying to satisfy this hunger inside of them for more "joy" and oftentimes go to desperate means to do so. Many Evangelical Mega-Churches have been built because of this. And eventually, what they find out is that this need for "joy" can never be fully satisfied by the world, and they oftentimes see this as being extremely bad, don't know how to deal with pain or accept spiritual maturity, and in the worst case scenerio, despair and end up leaving Christianity altogether.

This is the joy of the demons. It is built upon hyper-emotionalism, leads people into despairing and blinds their eyes to true spiritual development and joy. True joy is not about feeling no pain or sadness--indeed, Jesus specifically tells us that we will suffer for Him constantly--but about accepting our struggles and sorrows in a submissive manner, learning from them, and even reflecting on them to learn how we could glorify God through them, and most of all, staying submitted to God throughout it all and thanking Him.

True joy produces humility and humbleness--and that brings me up to my next criticism of Evangelical "joy". I find that the Evangelical sense of pride oftentimes leads to a not-so-subtle sense of pridefulness and individualism. Many Evangelicals I've met who've matched your description of possessing that sense of Evangelical "joy" oftentimes begin to think that they do not need Church at all or any guidance from their fellow Christians because they see themselves as having their own special line with God and capable of working out their salvation on their own. This is the joy of the demons--subtle pride, a rejection of the Truth, blindness to true spiritual development, eventual despair etc. I wouldn't touch this joy with a forty foot pole.

Now, the true sense of joy--something I admittedly don't have yet--I observe among several of the older folks at my Orthodox Church who come from troubled countries and are close to dying. These people seem to be emotionally dying and full of troubles, yet, in a strange way, they have not despaired but have accepted their tribulations and offer them to God. Instead of trying to escape them with this shallow sense of happiness that constantly needs to be fed, they face them, learn from them, and come closer to God through them. Their sense of true joy doesn't cause them to become prideful or to leave the CHurch, but rather causes them to be extremely meek, quiet and humble, and come to the Church more often than anyone else. They truly seem content with their life, knowing that they need God more than ever and that there are things wrong in the world, but submissively handling them and turning to God. This is the true joy--the joy that I hope to attain. It is not shallow and prideful, but deep, beneficial for learning and produces humility and submissiveness to the Truth and Church.

Any sense of "joy" that produces pride and not humility and does not lead a person to the Church is the joy of the demons.

so this true joy of yours is actually being humbled by suffering.. it is completely senseless.
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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #46 on: January 17, 2013, 05:55:38 PM »
Right here, right now.

Offline JamesR

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #47 on: January 17, 2013, 05:55:49 PM »
I'm sorry to everyone here, but I don't get--nor will I ever get--the whole "feelings/emotionally" thingy that is vital to so many people's religion and faith. And I don't see how any decent minded person could honestly make a decision based off of it. I'm a modernist Scholastic at the core till the day that I die and I openly admit it.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 05:58:46 PM by JamesR »
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2013, 05:56:01 PM »
@JamesR

The christian God is a feeling.

Of course. So what is your point?

There is a Priest who posts around here occasionally, I can hear him saying: both / and, not either / or.
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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #49 on: January 17, 2013, 05:57:10 PM »
Firstly, this may just be my inner Scholasticism coming out, but I think that judging the truth of something based off of the emotional affects it has on people is very stupid to be quite frank. Feelings and emotions can lie. They are temporary. They constantly change. They won't tell you what is true, but will rather just tell you how something makes you feel. Reason is the best tool to judge things by because it will not lie to  you and will stay true no matter how you are feeling--it is self-evident and objective. Secondly, I think that we need to make a distinction between the types of "Joys" involved. I feel more than qualified to speak on this since I've spent the majority of my pre-conversion life in Evangelical "Born-Again" crowds. From what I have observed, the joy that they experience honestly seems quite shallow and immature--just rooted in hyper-emotionalism. The reason for this is that it constantly needs to be fed. Instead of living a godly life and doing what God says, they spend more of their time trying to satisfy this hunger inside of them for more "joy" and oftentimes go to desperate means to do so. Many Evangelical Mega-Churches have been built because of this. And eventually, what they find out is that this need for "joy" can never be fully satisfied by the world, and they oftentimes see this as being extremely bad, don't know how to deal with pain or accept spiritual maturity, and in the worst case scenerio, despair and end up leaving Christianity altogether.

This is the joy of the demons. It is built upon hyper-emotionalism, leads people into despairing and blinds their eyes to true spiritual development and joy. True joy is not about feeling no pain or sadness--indeed, Jesus specifically tells us that we will suffer for Him constantly--but about accepting our struggles and sorrows in a submissive manner, learning from them, and even reflecting on them to learn how we could glorify God through them, and most of all, staying submitted to God throughout it all and thanking Him.

True joy produces humility and humbleness--and that brings me up to my next criticism of Evangelical "joy". I find that the Evangelical sense of pride oftentimes leads to a not-so-subtle sense of pridefulness and individualism. Many Evangelicals I've met who've matched your description of possessing that sense of Evangelical "joy" oftentimes begin to think that they do not need Church at all or any guidance from their fellow Christians because they see themselves as having their own special line with God and capable of working out their salvation on their own. This is the joy of the demons--subtle pride, a rejection of the Truth, blindness to true spiritual development, eventual despair etc. I wouldn't touch this joy with a forty foot pole.

Now, the true sense of joy--something I admittedly don't have yet--I observe among several of the older folks at my Orthodox Church who come from troubled countries and are close to dying. These people seem to be emotionally dying and full of troubles, yet, in a strange way, they have not despaired but have accepted their tribulations and offer them to God. Instead of trying to escape them with this shallow sense of happiness that constantly needs to be fed, they face them, learn from them, and come closer to God through them. Their sense of true joy doesn't cause them to become prideful or to leave the CHurch, but rather causes them to be extremely meek, quiet and humble, and come to the Church more often than anyone else. They truly seem content with their life, knowing that they need God more than ever and that there are things wrong in the world, but submissively handling them and turning to God. This is the true joy--the joy that I hope to attain. It is not shallow and prideful, but deep, beneficial for learning and produces humility and submissiveness to the Truth and Church.

Any sense of "joy" that produces pride and not humility and does not lead a person to the Church is the joy of the demons.

so this true joy of yours is actually being humbled by suffering.. it is completely senseless.

What you call senseless I call mature. It's about dealing with your problems and facing them opposed to trying to escape them or mask them with a shallow sense of hyper-emotional escapism.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #50 on: January 17, 2013, 06:00:39 PM »
Happiness: Result of happenings (things that happen).

Ay-yup. In older texts, especially before the 18th century, 'happy' is used as a synonym for 'fortunate'.

And yet the advent of the discourse which animates this one had nothing to do with either happiness or fortune.

I would think a Greek speaker would know that.
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #51 on: January 17, 2013, 06:02:37 PM »
Okay I have to admit it, this is a very exciting thread for me. For once Orthonorm is actually not being cryptic but openly explaining things.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #52 on: January 17, 2013, 06:07:26 PM »
I'm sorry to everyone here, but I don't get--nor will I ever get--the whole "feelings/emotionally" thingy that is vital to so many people's religion and faith. And I don't see how any decent minded person could honestly make a decision based off of it. I'm a modernist Scholastic at the core till the day that I die and I openly admit it.

When I suggested finding something to die for, I was hoping for something other than Scholasticism.

And by looking at your own posting history it would be difficult to figure out in virtue of what you base decisions on other than emotions.

It doesn't take Sigmund Freud to see such proclamations of yours about the flight from feeling to shelter in reason to be a manner in which to obviate the pain you find in your life.
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #53 on: January 17, 2013, 06:12:58 PM »
@JamesR

The christian God is a feeling.




 ??? ???

 ???
I think it would help if you elaborated. What exactly do you mean by "a feeling"?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 06:13:10 PM by Ansgar »
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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #54 on: January 17, 2013, 06:14:46 PM »
I'm sorry to everyone here, but I don't get--nor will I ever get--the whole "feelings/emotionally" thingy that is vital to so many people's religion and faith. And I don't see how any decent minded person could honestly make a decision based off of it. I'm a modernist Scholastic at the core till the day that I die and I openly admit it.

When I suggested finding something to die for, I was hoping for something other than Scholasticism.

And by looking at your own posting history it would be difficult to figure out in virtue of what you base decisions on other than emotions.

It doesn't take Sigmund Freud to see such proclamations of yours about the flight from feeling to shelter in reason to be a manner in which to obviate the pain you find in your life.

So are you saying that it's impossible to be emotionless?  ???
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #55 on: January 17, 2013, 06:16:09 PM »
@JamesR

The christian God is a feeling.

Of course. So what is your point?

There is a Priest who posts around here occasionally, I can hear him saying: both / and, not either / or.

My point is that "feelings" should be talked down or looked down.

both as in which both?
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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #56 on: January 17, 2013, 06:16:45 PM »
I'm sorry to everyone here, but I don't get--nor will I ever get--the whole "feelings/emotionally" thingy that is vital to so many people's religion and faith. And I don't see how any decent minded person could honestly make a decision based off of it. I'm a modernist Scholastic at the core till the day that I die and I openly admit it.

When I suggested finding something to die for, I was hoping for something other than Scholasticism.

And by looking at your own posting history it would be difficult to figure out in virtue of what you base decisions on other than emotions.

It doesn't take Sigmund Freud to see such proclamations of yours about the flight from feeling to shelter in reason to be a manner in which to obviate the pain you find in your life.

So are you saying that it's impossible to be emotionless?  ???

I pitty the fools that are like that.They are walking corpses.
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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #57 on: January 17, 2013, 06:17:16 PM »
Right here, right now.

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #58 on: January 17, 2013, 06:19:03 PM »
Happiness: Result of happenings (things that happen).

Ay-yup. In older texts, especially before the 18th century, 'happy' is used as a synonym for 'fortunate'.

And yet the advent of the discourse which animates this one had nothing to do with either happiness or fortune.

I would think a Greek speaker would know that.

It's the English of this statement that fails to parse. Care to elaborate?
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #59 on: January 17, 2013, 06:23:16 PM »
@JamesR

The christian God is a feeling.




 ??? ???

 ???
I think it would help if you elaborated. What exactly do you mean by "a feeling"?

Love.
That's more like it.
But I would rather say that God is divine love, not human love. Therefore, I think that the term 'feeling' might not be the best word to describe it.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #60 on: January 17, 2013, 06:26:21 PM »
I'm sorry to everyone here, but I don't get--nor will I ever get--the whole "feelings/emotionally" thingy that is vital to so many people's religion and faith. And I don't see how any decent minded person could honestly make a decision based off of it. I'm a modernist Scholastic at the core till the day that I die and I openly admit it.

When I suggested finding something to die for, I was hoping for something other than Scholasticism.

And by looking at your own posting history it would be difficult to figure out in virtue of what you base decisions on other than emotions.

It doesn't take Sigmund Freud to see such proclamations of yours about the flight from feeling to shelter in reason to be a manner in which to obviate the pain you find in your life.

So are you saying that it's impossible to be emotionless?  ???

Yes. At least if you are a person. As much as I am loath to use a Latin derived term, it will suffice.

Emotion is one way to simply formulate what allows us to be persons. It is literally what moves us out of ourselves (more literally "pushes us out").

It is not for nothing that most words which stayed around to describe our ways of being, even or perhaps especially what we believe to be primarily our interiority, have a meaning rooted in openness and movement. How else would one explain that which is transcendental?

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Offline Romaios

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #61 on: January 17, 2013, 06:28:20 PM »
So are you saying that it's impossible to be emotionless?  ???

Why would anyone want to be that?

You might strive to be dispassionate (free of vice - ataraktos, apathes), but not emotionless (without feeling - anaisthetos). 

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #62 on: January 17, 2013, 06:28:54 PM »
Happiness: Result of happenings (things that happen).

Ay-yup. In older texts, especially before the 18th century, 'happy' is used as a synonym for 'fortunate'.

And yet the advent of the discourse which animates this one had nothing to do with either happiness or fortune.

I would think a Greek speaker would know that.

It's the English of this statement that fails to parse. Care to elaborate?

What word found its central position in antiquity regarding how one ought to live?
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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #63 on: January 17, 2013, 06:31:12 PM »
Firstly, this may just be my inner Scholasticism coming out, but I think that judging the truth of something based off of the emotional affects it has on people is very stupid to be quite frank. Feelings and emotions can lie. They are temporary. They constantly change. They won't tell you what is true, but will rather just tell you how something makes you feel. Reason is the best tool to judge things by because it will not lie to  you and will stay true no matter how you are feeling--it is self-evident and objective. Secondly, I think that we need to make a distinction between the types of "Joys" involved. I feel more than qualified to speak on this since I've spent the majority of my pre-conversion life in Evangelical "Born-Again" crowds. From what I have observed, the joy that they experience honestly seems quite shallow and immature--just rooted in hyper-emotionalism. The reason for this is that it constantly needs to be fed. Instead of living a godly life and doing what God says, they spend more of their time trying to satisfy this hunger inside of them for more "joy" and oftentimes go to desperate means to do so. Many Evangelical Mega-Churches have been built because of this. And eventually, what they find out is that this need for "joy" can never be fully satisfied by the world, and they oftentimes see this as being extremely bad, don't know how to deal with pain or accept spiritual maturity, and in the worst case scenerio, despair and end up leaving Christianity altogether.

This is the joy of the demons. It is built upon hyper-emotionalism, leads people into despairing and blinds their eyes to true spiritual development and joy. True joy is not about feeling no pain or sadness--indeed, Jesus specifically tells us that we will suffer for Him constantly--but about accepting our struggles and sorrows in a submissive manner, learning from them, and even reflecting on them to learn how we could glorify God through them, and most of all, staying submitted to God throughout it all and thanking Him.

True joy produces humility and humbleness--and that brings me up to my next criticism of Evangelical "joy". I find that the Evangelical sense of pride oftentimes leads to a not-so-subtle sense of pridefulness and individualism. Many Evangelicals I've met who've matched your description of possessing that sense of Evangelical "joy" oftentimes begin to think that they do not need Church at all or any guidance from their fellow Christians because they see themselves as having their own special line with God and capable of working out their salvation on their own. This is the joy of the demons--subtle pride, a rejection of the Truth, blindness to true spiritual development, eventual despair etc. I wouldn't touch this joy with a forty foot pole.

Now, the true sense of joy--something I admittedly don't have yet--I observe among several of the older folks at my Orthodox Church who come from troubled countries and are close to dying. These people seem to be emotionally dying and full of troubles, yet, in a strange way, they have not despaired but have accepted their tribulations and offer them to God. Instead of trying to escape them with this shallow sense of happiness that constantly needs to be fed, they face them, learn from them, and come closer to God through them. Their sense of true joy doesn't cause them to become prideful or to leave the CHurch, but rather causes them to be extremely meek, quiet and humble, and come to the Church more often than anyone else. They truly seem content with their life, knowing that they need God more than ever and that there are things wrong in the world, but submissively handling them and turning to God. This is the true joy--the joy that I hope to attain. It is not shallow and prideful, but deep, beneficial for learning and produces humility and submissiveness to the Truth and Church.

Any sense of "joy" that produces pride and not humility and does not lead a person to the Church is the joy of the demons.

so this true joy of yours is actually being humbled by suffering.. it is completely senseless.

What you call senseless I call mature. It's about dealing with your problems and facing them opposed to trying to escape them or mask them with a shallow sense of hyper-emotional escapism.

My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #64 on: January 17, 2013, 06:39:41 PM »
The question is, is that self contenance really joy?

I would apply the classic Orthodox standard to it; does it produce humbleness, humility and submission to the message of God only found within the Church? If the answer is yes, then yes, I would say it is really joy.

Quote
Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?

I think it is more about being humble and submitted to God. You are full of life, but it is rather deeper. I find that this sense of joy can oftentimes be more impressive to people than even the loudest, most openly "joyous" person there is. If you read the New Testament or the Lives of the Saints, you will see that most devout people had more of an inner sense of joy. Fun fact: Jesus never laughed as far as we know.

Quote
Is that the only joy for us?

I don't know

Quote
Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?

Depends on what you mean by conforming and changing. We should conform to God and the faith no matter what the circumstances are and not try to change this at all, but what we should try to change is our vices. We should try to become more virtuous and faithful, changing ourselves for God.

Quote
Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

God's message doesn't need evolving. Jesus and the Church are the final revelation of Truth to mankind. The evolving we need is to live by this faith and no longer walk in wickedness.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #65 on: January 17, 2013, 06:40:38 PM »
My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

There's nothing stagnant in overcoming the curve balls of life. One needs to accept how things are before they can change them, rather than escaping into la-la land. If life was meant to be a bed of roses, we would have no need for a Paraclete.
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Offline Ashman618

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #66 on: January 17, 2013, 06:42:07 PM »
Firstly, this may just be my inner Scholasticism coming out, but I think that judging the truth of something based off of the emotional affects it has on people is very stupid to be quite frank. Feelings and emotions can lie. They are temporary. They constantly change. They won't tell you what is true, but will rather just tell you how something makes you feel. Reason is the best tool to judge things by because it will not lie to  you and will stay true no matter how you are feeling--it is self-evident and objective. Secondly, I think that we need to make a distinction between the types of "Joys" involved. I feel more than qualified to speak on this since I've spent the majority of my pre-conversion life in Evangelical "Born-Again" crowds. From what I have observed, the joy that they experience honestly seems quite shallow and immature--just rooted in hyper-emotionalism. The reason for this is that it constantly needs to be fed. Instead of living a godly life and doing what God says, they spend more of their time trying to satisfy this hunger inside of them for more "joy" and oftentimes go to desperate means to do so. Many Evangelical Mega-Churches have been built because of this. And eventually, what they find out is that this need for "joy" can never be fully satisfied by the world, and they oftentimes see this as being extremely bad, don't know how to deal with pain or accept spiritual maturity, and in the worst case scenerio, despair and end up leaving Christianity altogether.

This is the joy of the demons. It is built upon hyper-emotionalism, leads people into despairing and blinds their eyes to true spiritual development and joy. True joy is not about feeling no pain or sadness--indeed, Jesus specifically tells us that we will suffer for Him constantly--but about accepting our struggles and sorrows in a submissive manner, learning from them, and even reflecting on them to learn how we could glorify God through them, and most of all, staying submitted to God throughout it all and thanking Him.

True joy produces humility and humbleness--and that brings me up to my next criticism of Evangelical "joy". I find that the Evangelical sense of pride oftentimes leads to a not-so-subtle sense of pridefulness and individualism. Many Evangelicals I've met who've matched your description of possessing that sense of Evangelical "joy" oftentimes begin to think that they do not need Church at all or any guidance from their fellow Christians because they see themselves as having their own special line with God and capable of working out their salvation on their own. This is the joy of the demons--subtle pride, a rejection of the Truth, blindness to true spiritual development, eventual despair etc. I wouldn't touch this joy with a forty foot pole.

Now, the true sense of joy--something I admittedly don't have yet--I observe among several of the older folks at my Orthodox Church who come from troubled countries and are close to dying. These people seem to be emotionally dying and full of troubles, yet, in a strange way, they have not despaired but have accepted their tribulations and offer them to God. Instead of trying to escape them with this shallow sense of happiness that constantly needs to be fed, they face them, learn from them, and come closer to God through them. Their sense of true joy doesn't cause them to become prideful or to leave the CHurch, but rather causes them to be extremely meek, quiet and humble, and come to the Church more often than anyone else. They truly seem content with their life, knowing that they need God more than ever and that there are things wrong in the world, but submissively handling them and turning to God. This is the true joy--the joy that I hope to attain. It is not shallow and prideful, but deep, beneficial for learning and produces humility and submissiveness to the Truth and Church.

Any sense of "joy" that produces pride and not humility and does not lead a person to the Church is the joy of the demons.

so this true joy of yours is actually being humbled by suffering.. it is completely senseless.

What you call senseless I call mature. It's about dealing with your problems and facing them opposed to trying to escape them or mask them with a shallow sense of hyper-emotional escapism.

My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?



Evolving-faith?  

Offline JamesR

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #67 on: January 17, 2013, 06:44:44 PM »
Let's look at Job for an example--a man whose legacy is built upon his faithfulness toward God during hardship--when he was enduring all of those tribulations, he didn't try to mask his suffering with emotional escapism nor did he try to change his circumstances, but he patiently endured it all, accepted it, and rather reflected upon it and used it to come closer to God.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 06:47:22 PM by JamesR »
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #68 on: January 17, 2013, 06:51:44 PM »
Let's look at Job for an example--a man whose legacy is built upon His faithfulness toward God during hardship--when he was enduring all of those tribulations, he didn't try to mask his suffering with emotional escapism nor did he try to change his circumstances, but he patiently endured it all, accepted it, and rather reflected upon it and used it to come closer to God.

What you mean by "emotional escapism" is probably overreacting (by today's standards), let's say pulling one's hair, tearing one's clothes, pouring ashes over one's head and dressing in sack-cloth. That was actually permitted, even prescribed by OT law (7 days for mourning).

That doesn't mean that Job would not have felt emotions like pain, anguish, despair, revolt and so on.   
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 06:56:28 PM by Romaios »

Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #69 on: January 17, 2013, 06:51:50 PM »
The question is, is that self contenance really joy?

I would apply the classic Orthodox standard to it; does it produce humbleness, humility and submission to the message of God only found within the Church? If the answer is yes, then yes, I would say it is really joy.

Quote
Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?

I think it is more about being humble and submitted to God. You are full of life, but it is rather deeper. I find that this sense of joy can oftentimes be more impressive to people than even the loudest, most openly "joyous" person there is. If you read the New Testament or the Lives of the Saints, you will see that most devout people had more of an inner sense of joy. Fun fact: Jesus never laughed as far as we know.

Quote
Is that the only joy for us?

I don't know

Quote
Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?

Depends on what you mean by conforming and changing. We should conform to God and the faith no matter what the circumstances are and not try to change this at all, but what we should try to change is our vices. We should try to become more virtuous and faithful, changing ourselves for God.

Quote
Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

God's message doesn't need evolving. Jesus and the Church are the final revelation of Truth to mankind. The evolving we need is to live by this faith and no longer walk in wickedness.

How can you really know that the message of the Church is true? how can you know anything is true? how can you discern between truth and lie?Can you give an answer to that , that doesn't contain circular reasoning?

God failed when he gave us smile?
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #70 on: January 17, 2013, 07:00:40 PM »
How can you really know that the message of the Church is true? how can you know anything is true? how can you discern between truth and lie?

By using one's God-given faculties: mind & heart, reason & intuition/feelings, conscience, free will.

Offline Ansgar

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #71 on: January 17, 2013, 07:04:28 PM »
The question is, is that self contenance really joy?

I would apply the classic Orthodox standard to it; does it produce humbleness, humility and submission to the message of God only found within the Church? If the answer is yes, then yes, I would say it is really joy.

Quote
Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?

I think it is more about being humble and submitted to God. You are full of life, but it is rather deeper. I find that this sense of joy can oftentimes be more impressive to people than even the loudest, most openly "joyous" person there is. If you read the New Testament or the Lives of the Saints, you will see that most devout people had more of an inner sense of joy. Fun fact: Jesus never laughed as far as we know.

Quote
Is that the only joy for us?

I don't know

Quote
Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?

Depends on what you mean by conforming and changing. We should conform to God and the faith no matter what the circumstances are and not try to change this at all, but what we should try to change is our vices. We should try to become more virtuous and faithful, changing ourselves for God.

Quote
Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

God's message doesn't need evolving. Jesus and the Church are the final revelation of Truth to mankind. The evolving we need is to live by this faith and no longer walk in wickedness.

How can you really know that the message of the Church is true? how can you know anything is true? how can you discern between truth and lie?Can you give an answer to that , that doesn't contain circular reasoning?

God failed when he gave us smile?
That is, more than anything (I think) a matter of faith.
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #72 on: January 17, 2013, 07:05:33 PM »
My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

There's nothing stagnant in overcoming the curve balls of life. One needs to accept how things are before they can change them, rather than escaping into la-la land. If life was meant to be a bed of roses, we would have no need for a Paraclete.

Shouldn't joy be more than self-contentment?

Life was meant to have the need of the Paraclete and be deprived of it, sounds a little bit sadistic.
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Offline tweety234

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #73 on: January 17, 2013, 07:07:43 PM »
So are you saying that it's impossible to be emotionless?  ???

Why would anyone want to be that?

You might strive to be dispassionate (free of vice - ataraktos, apathes), but not emotionless (without feeling - anaisthetos). 

agreed 100%. Some people are suffering from fear of emotion.
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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #74 on: January 17, 2013, 07:07:56 PM »
How can you really know that the message of the Church is true? how can you know anything is true? how can you discern between truth and lie?

By using one's God-given faculties: mind & heart, reason & intuition/feelings, conscience, free will.

How do you know they are not betraying you?

Ok use them and show me that the Church is true without circular reasoning.
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Offline tweety234

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #75 on: January 17, 2013, 07:08:59 PM »
One thing that I never heard when I was still a Protestant, but it makes a lot of sense, is that one cannot follow the King outside of His Kingdom.

which means? But I agree.
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #76 on: January 17, 2013, 07:10:42 PM »
My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

There's nothing stagnant in overcoming the curve balls of life. One needs to accept how things are before they can change them, rather than escaping into la-la land. If life was meant to be a bed of roses, we would have no need for a Paraclete.

Shouldn't joy be more than self-contentment?

Life was meant to have the need of the Paraclete and be deprived of it, sounds a little bit sadistic.
We are not deprived of the Paraclete.
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite

Offline tweety234

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #77 on: January 17, 2013, 07:12:06 PM »
But who is more happier?

This is strictly personal... but I have issues with the concept of happiness. It implies happenstance, luck, fortunate conditions. Everyone can be happy when things are going their way. What happens when life turns around and gives you a big old bitchslap into next week? The happy-clappy highs are high, but the lows are respectively really, really low.

I prefer contentment, myself - being able to function, rather than getting the moody blues, despite what life throws at me, not because of it.

As for 'liberal Christians'... You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

well, if you have issues with happiness. Tell us according to your observations, who has more joy?

She said "the *concept* of happiness", and then explained what she meant.  Are "happiness" and the experience of "joy" identical?  Please explain.

Happiness: Result of happenings (things that happen).
Joy: Comes from your heart regardless.

Is it the purpose of a "religious system" to make us happy?  Is that the purpose of Christianity as expressed in Orthodoxy or Catholicism?

If not that, than what?

Your question seems to imply that you believe Christianity is a religious system.  I do not believe that it is, nor do I believe that temporal happiness is its purpose.  Perhaps I should have inserted the word "temporal" before "happy" in my post above.  I think Christianity is a relationship with a Person, that Person being Jesus Christ.  I think its purpose is to bring us, through knowledge, worship, and adoration of God to theosis and union with Him (please excuse my clumsy wording).  A result of this will be eternal joy with Him.  All assuming, of course, that we repent of our sins and don't end up eternally separated from Him.  ;D

what is this eternal joy?

you aare kidding right?
“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #78 on: January 17, 2013, 07:13:01 PM »
My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

There's nothing stagnant in overcoming the curve balls of life. One needs to accept how things are before they can change them, rather than escaping into la-la land. If life was meant to be a bed of roses, we would have no need for a Paraclete.

Shouldn't joy be more than self-contentment?

Life was meant to have the need of the Paraclete and be deprived of it, sounds a little bit sadistic.
We are not deprived of the Paraclete.

It was his argument.We cannot need something we have.We only need what we miss.
Right here, right now.

Offline tweety234

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #79 on: January 17, 2013, 07:13:20 PM »
But who is more happier?

This is strictly personal... but I have issues with the concept of happiness. It implies happenstance, luck, fortunate conditions. Everyone can be happy when things are going their way. What happens when life turns around and gives you a big old bitchslap into next week? The happy-clappy highs are high, but the lows are respectively really, really low.

I prefer contentment, myself - being able to function, rather than getting the moody blues, despite what life throws at me, not because of it.

As for 'liberal Christians'... You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

well, if you have issues with happiness. Tell us according to your observations, who has more joy?

She said "the *concept* of happiness", and then explained what she meant.  Are "happiness" and the experience of "joy" identical?  Please explain.

Happiness: Result of happenings (things that happen).
Joy: Comes from your heart regardless.

Is it the purpose of a "religious system" to make us happy?  Is that the purpose of Christianity as expressed in Orthodoxy or Catholicism?

No. Religious systems only care about themselves. Not about others. They want to survive even at the expense of people's happiness and even lives.

You are not far from the kingdom of truth.

let's hope so/
“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

Offline Arachne

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #80 on: January 17, 2013, 07:13:43 PM »
My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

There's nothing stagnant in overcoming the curve balls of life. One needs to accept how things are before they can change them, rather than escaping into la-la land. If life was meant to be a bed of roses, we would have no need for a Paraclete.

Shouldn't joy be more than self-contentment?

Life was meant to have the need of the Paraclete and be deprived of it, sounds a little bit sadistic.

What you believe that joy should be and what it actually is don't have to coincide.

Jesus Christ warned repeatedly that those who follow him would have to bear their own crosses, and then reassured them that He would send the Paraclete (=Consoler) in his stead after His Ascension.

Don't know about you, but all this talk of crosses and needing consolation makes me think life is meant to be a pretty hardcore affair.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 07:14:06 PM by Arachne »
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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #81 on: January 17, 2013, 07:14:04 PM »
But who is more happier?

This is strictly personal... but I have issues with the concept of happiness. It implies happenstance, luck, fortunate conditions. Everyone can be happy when things are going their way. What happens when life turns around and gives you a big old bitchslap into next week? The happy-clappy highs are high, but the lows are respectively really, really low.

I prefer contentment, myself - being able to function, rather than getting the moody blues, despite what life throws at me, not because of it.

As for 'liberal Christians'... You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

well, if you have issues with happiness. Tell us according to your observations, who has more joy?

She said "the *concept* of happiness", and then explained what she meant.  Are "happiness" and the experience of "joy" identical?  Please explain.

Happiness: Result of happenings (things that happen).
Joy: Comes from your heart regardless.

Is it the purpose of a "religious system" to make us happy?  Is that the purpose of Christianity as expressed in Orthodoxy or Catholicism?

If not that, than what?

Your question seems to imply that you believe Christianity is a religious system.  I do not believe that it is, nor do I believe that temporal happiness is its purpose.  Perhaps I should have inserted the word "temporal" before "happy" in my post above.  I think Christianity is a relationship with a Person, that Person being Jesus Christ.  I think its purpose is to bring us, through knowledge, worship, and adoration of God to theosis and union with Him (please excuse my clumsy wording).  A result of this will be eternal joy with Him.  All assuming, of course, that we repent of our sins and don't end up eternally separated from Him.  ;D

what is this eternal joy?

you aare kidding right?

no.

Right here, right now.

Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #82 on: January 17, 2013, 07:15:36 PM »
Ok now dear Orthodox brethen and catholic evil brothers :)

How many of you can firmly state and say that you are born again, spirit filled, saved, guided by the Holy Spirit?

Let's see.

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Offline tweety234

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #83 on: January 17, 2013, 07:16:25 PM »
What is the positiveness of legalism, dogma and ritualism?

How does one get to live a more satisfying and vivid life?

You can never escape "legalism", "dogma", or "ritualism".

How to find a "satisfying" life?

Find something you would be willing to die for or kill for. Literally.

In the end, this is the message of the Gospel. And what seems to animate anyone worth talking to for more than ten minutes.


agreed 100%
“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

Offline Ansgar

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #84 on: January 17, 2013, 07:18:12 PM »
My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

There's nothing stagnant in overcoming the curve balls of life. One needs to accept how things are before they can change them, rather than escaping into la-la land. If life was meant to be a bed of roses, we would have no need for a Paraclete.

Shouldn't joy be more than self-contentment?

Life was meant to have the need of the Paraclete and be deprived of it, sounds a little bit sadistic.
We are not deprived of the Paraclete.

It was his argument.We cannot need something we have.We only need what we miss.
Or that, which we do not wish to recieve.
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite

Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #85 on: January 17, 2013, 07:21:32 PM »
My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

There's nothing stagnant in overcoming the curve balls of life. One needs to accept how things are before they can change them, rather than escaping into la-la land. If life was meant to be a bed of roses, we would have no need for a Paraclete.

Shouldn't joy be more than self-contentment?

Life was meant to have the need of the Paraclete and be deprived of it, sounds a little bit sadistic.

What you believe that joy should be and what it actually is don't have to coincide.

Jesus Christ warned repeatedly that those who follow him would have to bear their own crosses, and then reassured them that He would send the Paraclete (=Consoler) in his stead after His Ascension.

Don't know about you, but all this talk of crosses and needing consolation makes me think life is meant to be a pretty hardcore affair.

So God really deprived the world for thousands of years of His presence, indwelling, consolation,love etc?That sounds like a sadistic God doesn't it?

I think this types of Christians would say that Christ died in their places and suffered for them in their place.

Right here, right now.

Offline tweety234

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #86 on: January 17, 2013, 07:22:08 PM »
My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

There's nothing stagnant in overcoming the curve balls of life. One needs to accept how things are before they can change them, rather than escaping into la-la land. If life was meant to be a bed of roses, we would have no need for a Paraclete.

Shouldn't joy be more than self-contentment?

Life was meant to have the need of the Paraclete and be deprived of it, sounds a little bit sadistic.

What you believe that joy should be and what it actually is don't have to coincide.

Jesus Christ warned repeatedly that those who follow him would have to bear their own crosses, and then reassured them that He would send the Paraclete (=Consoler) in his stead after His Ascension.

Don't know about you, but all this talk of crosses and needing consolation makes me think life is meant to be a pretty hardcore affair.





Which means if you are happy, then he will do everything to make you miserable?
“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #87 on: January 17, 2013, 07:23:10 PM »
My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

There's nothing stagnant in overcoming the curve balls of life. One needs to accept how things are before they can change them, rather than escaping into la-la land. If life was meant to be a bed of roses, we would have no need for a Paraclete.

Shouldn't joy be more than self-contentment?

Life was meant to have the need of the Paraclete and be deprived of it, sounds a little bit sadistic.
We are not deprived of the Paraclete.

It was his argument.We cannot need something we have.We only need what we miss.
Or that, which we do not wish to recieve.

I get it , it's always us.

We are the ones that actually desire hell and want to be tortured for eternity but than again no one does.Man oh man!
Right here, right now.

Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #88 on: January 17, 2013, 07:24:28 PM »
My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

There's nothing stagnant in overcoming the curve balls of life. One needs to accept how things are before they can change them, rather than escaping into la-la land. If life was meant to be a bed of roses, we would have no need for a Paraclete.

Shouldn't joy be more than self-contentment?

Life was meant to have the need of the Paraclete and be deprived of it, sounds a little bit sadistic.

What you believe that joy should be and what it actually is don't have to coincide.

Jesus Christ warned repeatedly that those who follow him would have to bear their own crosses, and then reassured them that He would send the Paraclete (=Consoler) in his stead after His Ascension.

Don't know about you, but all this talk of crosses and needing consolation makes me think life is meant to be a pretty hardcore affair.





Which means if you are happy, then he will do everything to make you miserable?

Doesn't that sound a bit sadistic?
Right here, right now.

Offline Romaios

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #89 on: January 17, 2013, 07:25:37 PM »
How do you know they are not betraying you?

I don't - I'm certainly not infallible. But there must be other people one can trust.

Ok use them and show me that the Church is true without circular reasoning.

Well, you see - that's a lifetime's work and everyone needs to sort it out for himself.

You can take it as a 'leap of faith'. Trust may actually be a step forward to get you out of a vicious circle instead of making you its prisoner. If I tried to convince you of anything, you could always suspect me of proselytizing/ulterior motives. Last, but not least - I might not be 100% convinced myself.

In the old understanding, faith (emunah) is not as much being convinced of a set of metaphysical propositions, but steadfast abiding in a covenant or keeping one's word (the things vowed at Baptism, for instance). 
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 07:32:27 PM by Romaios »

Offline Arachne

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #90 on: January 17, 2013, 07:27:40 PM »
My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

There's nothing stagnant in overcoming the curve balls of life. One needs to accept how things are before they can change them, rather than escaping into la-la land. If life was meant to be a bed of roses, we would have no need for a Paraclete.

Shouldn't joy be more than self-contentment?

Life was meant to have the need of the Paraclete and be deprived of it, sounds a little bit sadistic.

What you believe that joy should be and what it actually is don't have to coincide.

Jesus Christ warned repeatedly that those who follow him would have to bear their own crosses, and then reassured them that He would send the Paraclete (=Consoler) in his stead after His Ascension.

Don't know about you, but all this talk of crosses and needing consolation makes me think life is meant to be a pretty hardcore affair.





Which means if you are happy, then he will do everything to make you miserable?

Doesn't that sound a bit sadistic?

Hey, nobody's forcing you to sign up.

The TOS for following Christ are as they are. Those who don't like them go find a better bargain. I just wish they'd be honest and leave Christ out of it.
'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #91 on: January 17, 2013, 07:31:11 PM »
My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

There's nothing stagnant in overcoming the curve balls of life. One needs to accept how things are before they can change them, rather than escaping into la-la land. If life was meant to be a bed of roses, we would have no need for a Paraclete.

Shouldn't joy be more than self-contentment?

Life was meant to have the need of the Paraclete and be deprived of it, sounds a little bit sadistic.
We are not deprived of the Paraclete.

It was his argument.We cannot need something we have.We only need what we miss.
Or that, which we do not wish to recieve.

I get it , it's always us.

We are the ones that actually desire hell and want to be tortured for eternity but than again no one does.Man oh man!
No we are the ones who exist in a fallen state as a consequence of the fall.

God extends His hand to us. It is our choice, whether we want to take it or not.  
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite

Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #92 on: January 17, 2013, 07:32:15 PM »
How do you know they are not betraying you?

I don't - I'm certainly not infallible. But there must be other people one can trust.

Ok use them and show me that the Church is true without circular reasoning.

Well, you see - that's a lifetime's work and everyone needs to sort it out for himself.

You can take it as a leap of faith (on trust) - if I tried to convince you, you could always suspect me of proselytizing/ulterior motives. Last, but not least - I might not be 100% convinced myself.

In the old understanding, faith (emunah) is not as much being convinced of certain metaphysical truths, but steadfast abiding in a covenant or keeping your word (the things vowed at Baptism, for instance). 

People you can trust, like who, even the church fathers had errors.

So you actually confess that you doubt the veridicity of the Church.Nice!

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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #93 on: January 17, 2013, 07:33:47 PM »
Quote
eople you can trust, like who, even the church fathers had errors.
The ecumenical counsils, for example.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 07:34:15 PM by Ansgar »
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #94 on: January 17, 2013, 07:35:46 PM »
My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

There's nothing stagnant in overcoming the curve balls of life. One needs to accept how things are before they can change them, rather than escaping into la-la land. If life was meant to be a bed of roses, we would have no need for a Paraclete.

Shouldn't joy be more than self-contentment?

Life was meant to have the need of the Paraclete and be deprived of it, sounds a little bit sadistic.
We are not deprived of the Paraclete.

It was his argument.We cannot need something we have.We only need what we miss.
Or that, which we do not wish to recieve.

I get it , it's always us.

We are the ones that actually desire hell and want to be tortured for eternity but than again no one does.Man oh man!
No we are the ones who exist in a fallen state as a consequence of the fall.

God extends His hand to us. It is our choice, whether we want to take it or not.  

It was not our choice to be born in a fallen state.
Right here, right now.

Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #95 on: January 17, 2013, 07:36:44 PM »
Quote
eople you can trust, like who, even the church fathers had errors.
The ecumenical counsils, for example.

ok but they are not people.and my next question would be which ones.there are a few "thief councils".
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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #96 on: January 17, 2013, 07:39:31 PM »
Why is it that I don't see any Orthodox claim to be Spirit filled and guided by the Holy Spirit or anything in Orthodoxy for that matter?
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #97 on: January 17, 2013, 07:40:44 PM »
My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

There's nothing stagnant in overcoming the curve balls of life. One needs to accept how things are before they can change them, rather than escaping into la-la land. If life was meant to be a bed of roses, we would have no need for a Paraclete.

Shouldn't joy be more than self-contentment?

Life was meant to have the need of the Paraclete and be deprived of it, sounds a little bit sadistic.
We are not deprived of the Paraclete.

It was his argument.We cannot need something we have.We only need what we miss.
Or that, which we do not wish to recieve.

I get it , it's always us.

We are the ones that actually desire hell and want to be tortured for eternity but than again no one does.Man oh man!
No we are the ones who exist in a fallen state as a consequence of the fall.

God extends His hand to us. It is our choice, whether we want to take it or not.  

It was not our choice to be born in a fallen state.

Exactly, and that it why God offers to help us, but He don't want to force us.
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite

Offline Arachne

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #98 on: January 17, 2013, 07:41:04 PM »
Why is it that I don't see any Orthodox claim to be Spirit filled and guided by the Holy Spirit or anything in Orthodoxy for that matter?

What do you think the Paraclete is?
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #99 on: January 17, 2013, 07:41:26 PM »
Quote
eople you can trust, like who, even the church fathers had errors.
The ecumenical counsils, for example.

ok but they are not people.and my next question would be which ones.there are a few "thief councils".
The seven councils which the Church recognizes.
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite

Offline Ansgar

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #100 on: January 17, 2013, 07:42:03 PM »
Why is it that I don't see any Orthodox claim to be Spirit filled and guided by the Holy Spirit or anything in Orthodoxy for that matter?
The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit.
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite

Offline theistgal

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #101 on: January 17, 2013, 07:42:23 PM »
Quote
eople you can trust, like who, even the church fathers had errors.
The ecumenical counsils, for example.

ok but they are not people.and my next question would be which ones.there are a few "thief councils".

Just out of curiosity, at what point does a group of people (like a council) cease to be "people"?
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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #102 on: January 17, 2013, 07:42:36 PM »
Quote
eople you can trust, like who, even the church fathers had errors.
The ecumenical counsils, for example.

ok but they are not people.and my next question would be which ones.there are a few "thief councils".
The seven councils which the Church recognizes.

how can we trust them with no circular reasoning involved?
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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #103 on: January 17, 2013, 07:43:50 PM »
Why is it that I don't see any Orthodox claim to be Spirit filled and guided by the Holy Spirit or anything in Orthodoxy for that matter?
The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit.

through what and how? and how can you tell this ?
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #104 on: January 17, 2013, 07:45:36 PM »
People you can trust, like who, even the church fathers had errors.

So you actually confess that you doubt the veridicity of the Church.Nice!

I actually meant people you know/might be close to.

We walk by faith, not by sight (the context - 2 Corinthians 5 - is also interesting).

For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known. (1 Cor. 13:12)

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #105 on: January 17, 2013, 07:47:53 PM »
Quote
eople you can trust, like who, even the church fathers had errors.
The ecumenical counsils, for example.

ok but they are not people.and my next question would be which ones.there are a few "thief councils".

Just out of curiosity, at what point does a group of people (like a council) cease to be "people"?

Which is the year of the eight Ecumenical Council?

Ask an Orthodox the same question.

The Ecumenical Councils also called Synods represent references to canon laws and ecclesiastical decisions.

But be it as you like.. We can trust any group of people from within the Church? How do you explain the thief councils than?
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #106 on: January 17, 2013, 07:49:07 PM »
how can we trust them with no circular reasoning involved?

Trust involves more than reasoning. It's the only way out of the circle.

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #107 on: January 17, 2013, 07:50:10 PM »
People you can trust, like who, even the church fathers had errors.

So you actually confess that you doubt the veridicity of the Church.Nice!

I actually meant people you know/might be close to.

We walk by faith, not by sight (the context - 2 Corinthians 5 - is also interesting).

For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known. (1 Cor. 13:12)

Explain what you understand by this "We walk by faith, not by sight"

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #108 on: January 17, 2013, 07:53:15 PM »
Quote
eople you can trust, like who, even the church fathers had errors.
The ecumenical counsils, for example.

ok but they are not people.and my next question would be which ones.there are a few "thief councils".

Just out of curiosity, at what point does a group of people (like a council) cease to be "people"?

Which is the year of the eight Ecumenical Council?

Ask an Orthodox the same question.

The Ecumenical Councils also called Synods represent references to canon laws and ecclesiastical decisions.

But be it as you like.. We can trust any group of people from within the Church? How do you explain the thief councils than?

But isn't that the "circular reasoning" we're trying to avoid? We can trust the Councils to be of God because the people who conducted them claimed to be inspired by God. But how do you decide if the people who made that claim are worthy of being trusted?
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Offline Ashman618

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #109 on: January 17, 2013, 07:55:03 PM »
Over 100 replies in an hour, it's like being at the movies gotta make some popcorn

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #110 on: January 17, 2013, 08:00:23 PM »
Why is it that I don't see any Orthodox claim to be Spirit filled and guided by the Holy Spirit or anything in Orthodoxy for that matter?
The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit.

through what and how? and how can you tell this ?
Because we have kept the apostolic faith. Besides, there are numerous miracles which testifies that God has not abandoned His Church.
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #111 on: January 17, 2013, 08:02:53 PM »
Explain what you understand by this "We walk by faith, not by sight".

That we must admit the limits of our knowledge. Like St. Paul, we haven't met Christ in the flesh - we rely on other people's testimony.

We might have trusted the wrong people. Their testimony might be false. Jesus Christ might not have risen from the dead - then we've lost the wager and we're the most miserable of all. That is the shadow of our faith - we ought to admit it, if we wish to be completely truthful.  

Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #112 on: January 17, 2013, 08:04:06 PM »
Why is it that I don't see any Orthodox claim to be Spirit filled and guided by the Holy Spirit or anything in Orthodoxy for that matter?
The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit.

through what and how? and how can you tell this ?
Because we have kept the apostolic faith. Besides, there are numerous miracles which testifies that God has not abandoned His Church.

We are not the only ones who claim miracles.
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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #113 on: January 17, 2013, 08:08:14 PM »
Explain what you understand by this "We walk by faith, not by sight".

That we must admit the limits of our knowledge. Like St. Paul, we haven't met Christ in the flesh - we rely on other people's testimony.

We might have trusted the wrong people. Their testimony might be false. Jesus Christ might not have risen from the dead - then we've lost the wager and we're the most miserable of all. That is the shadow of our faith - we ought to admit it, if we wish to be completely truthful.  

Your argument is a flaw.Paul says "We" and by your argument Paul who wrote that Epistle met Christ in the flesh.

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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #114 on: January 17, 2013, 08:10:12 PM »
Why is it that I don't see any Orthodox claim to be Spirit filled and guided by the Holy Spirit or anything in Orthodoxy for that matter?
The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit.

through what and how? and how can you tell this ?
Because we have kept the apostolic faith. Besides, there are numerous miracles which testifies that God has not abandoned His Church.

We are not the only ones who claim miracles.
But we have kept the faith. In this regard, I echoe Romaios words. We can either believe or not.
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #115 on: January 17, 2013, 08:11:02 PM »
Explain what you understand by this "We walk by faith, not by sight".

That we must admit the limits of our knowledge. Like St. Paul, we haven't met Christ in the flesh - we rely on other people's testimony.

We might have trusted the wrong people. Their testimony might be false. Jesus Christ might not have risen from the dead - then we've lost the wager and we're the most miserable of all. That is the shadow of our faith - we ought to admit it, if we wish to be completely truthful.  

Your argument is a flaw.Paul says "We" and by your argument Paul who wrote that Epistle met Christ in the flesh.


What do you demand? That Christ must appear before you?
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #116 on: January 17, 2013, 08:14:28 PM »
Quote
What is the positiveness of legalism, dogma and ritualism?

Well, among other things, it prevents you from splitting into 40.000 different denomination.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with rituals, as long they are not empty.

Ok.Good one.

What are the benefits of ones life who worships in a legalistic religion through rituals and a religious system ?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 08:18:21 PM by FlickFlack »
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #117 on: January 17, 2013, 08:14:53 PM »
Your argument is a flaw.Paul says "We" and by your argument Paul who wrote that Epistle met Christ in the flesh.

I wasn't arguing - I was just quoting.

St. Paul met Christ in the spirit (when he appeared to him on the way to Damascus), not in the flesh. According to 2 Corinthians 5, knowing Christ "in the spirit" is superior to knowing him "in the flesh" - cf. "Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet have believed." (John 20:29)

When St. Paul says 'we' he means himself and the entire community of believers.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 08:17:07 PM by Romaios »

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #118 on: January 17, 2013, 08:17:47 PM »
Explain what you understand by this "We walk by faith, not by sight".

That we must admit the limits of our knowledge. Like St. Paul, we haven't met Christ in the flesh - we rely on other people's testimony.

We might have trusted the wrong people. Their testimony might be false. Jesus Christ might not have risen from the dead - then we've lost the wager and we're the most miserable of all. That is the shadow of our faith - we ought to admit it, if we wish to be completely truthful.  

Your argument is a flaw.Paul says "We" and by your argument Paul who wrote that Epistle met Christ in the flesh.


What do you demand? That Christ must appear before you?

No.

That his argument was a flaw or a bait and switch.
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #119 on: January 17, 2013, 08:18:31 PM »
How can you really know that the message of the Church is true?

Apostolic succession

Quote
...how can you know anything is true? how can you discern between truth and lie? Can you give an answer to that , that doesn't contain circular reasoning?

Nope I can't give an answer to that. In fact, technically speaking, it is impossible to know 100% if anything is true or false. Even rationalism itself is built upon faith that our minds are capable of discerning between the truth and falsehood--this is ultimately what led to David Hume's downfall into nihilism. Strict skepticism--if taken too far--is self contradictory. The point is that somewhere along the line, we have to set a standard based on faith. I have faith that my mind is capable of discerning between truth and falsehood, and that I could use these faculties to examine the evidence of the position presented by the Church and I am convinced that it is the true message of Christ delivered by the Apostles.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #120 on: January 17, 2013, 08:19:37 PM »
Quote
What is the positiveness of legalism, dogma and ritualism?

Well, among other things, it prevents you from splitting into 40.000 different denomination.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with rituals, as long they are not empty.

Ok.Good one.

What are the benefits of ones life who worships in a legalistic religion through rituals and religious system ?
Well, personally it has positively influenced my prayer  life.
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #121 on: January 17, 2013, 08:23:43 PM »
Quote
What is the positiveness of legalism, dogma and ritualism?

Well, among other things, it prevents you from splitting into 40.000 different denomination.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with rituals, as long they are not empty.

Ok.Good one.

What are the benefits of ones life who worships in a legalistic religion through rituals and religious system ?
Well, personally it has positively influenced my prayer  life.

how ? the church has specific composed prayers ?

I am trying to study this two christian behaviours and not necessarly the whole that it presupposes a certain church.

So give arguments from this perspective of legalistic and ritualistic benefits in your life.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 08:34:58 PM by FlickFlack »
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #122 on: January 17, 2013, 08:28:53 PM »
What are the benefits of ones life who worships in a legalistic religion through rituals and a religious system ?

Orthodoxy might have rituals (liturgy) and a religious system (dogmas), as well as canon law. That doesn't automatically make it legalistic, ritualistic and obtuse. It's an open 'system', not a prison for the intellect, nor a straightjacket of prescribed behaviour.  

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #123 on: January 17, 2013, 08:29:25 PM »
How can you really know that the message of the Church is true?

Apostolic succession

Quote
...how can you know anything is true? how can you discern between truth and lie? Can you give an answer to that , that doesn't contain circular reasoning?

Nope I can't give an answer to that. In fact, technically speaking, it is impossible to know 100% if anything is true or false. Even rationalism itself is built upon faith that our minds are capable of discerning between the truth and falsehood--this is ultimately what led to David Hume's downfall into nihilism. Strict skepticism--if taken too far--is self contradictory. The point is that somewhere along the line, we have to set a standard based on faith. I have faith that my mind is capable of discerning between truth and falsehood, and that I could use these faculties to examine the evidence of the position presented by the Church and I am convinced that it is the true message of Christ delivered by the Apostles.

Different people are convinced of different things.

My point exactly, you cannot fully prove anything is true unless you reveal an universal standard by which you can know something is true.

Though I made another thread about truth.

This thread is not specifically about proving the Church is true, but about this two specific behaviours and their effect on people.
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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #124 on: January 17, 2013, 08:33:39 PM »
What are the benefits of ones life who worships in a legalistic religion through rituals and a religious system ?

Orthodoxy might have rituals (liturgy) and a religious system (dogmas), as well as canon law. That doesn't automatically make it legalistic, ritualistic and obtuse. It's an open 'system', not a prison for the intellect, nor a straightjacket of prescribed behaviour.  

Not what I asked.And I'm not here to contest the Church.

What are the specific benefits(in your life) of worshiping through rituals and religious systems if you don't like the term legalism.Though i would say "a canon law" is pretty legalistic from my POV.Usually Law = Law.
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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #125 on: January 17, 2013, 08:35:03 PM »
This thread is not specifically about proving the Church is true, but about this two specific behaviours and their effect on people.

Moving on then, if you are willing to accept the same axiomatic standard that our faculties are capable of determining truth, I can then prove to you from there why I think the Church is true.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #126 on: January 17, 2013, 08:35:52 PM »
Quote
What is the positiveness of legalism, dogma and ritualism?

Well, among other things, it prevents you from splitting into 40.000 different denomination.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with rituals, as long they are not empty.

Ok.Good one.

What are the benefits of ones life who worships in a legalistic religion through rituals and religious system ?
Well, personally it has positively influenced my prayer  life.

how ? the church has specific composed prayers ?

I am trying to study this two christian behaviours and not necessarly the whole that it suppose a certain church.

So give arguments from this perspective of legalistic and ritualistic benefits in your life.


It's getting really late and I have to sleep soon, but I will give you a short answer.
Since many people (including myself) are not very good at praying, the Church offers help . Many of our prayers were written by great saints who lived very pious lives. We learn from them and develpoe our prayer life with the support and help from Chriist and His Church.
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #127 on: January 17, 2013, 08:39:01 PM »
This thread is not specifically about proving the Church is true, but about this two specific behaviours and their effect on people.

Moving on then, if you are willing to accept the same axiomatic standard that our faculties are capable of determining truth, I can then prove to you from there why I think the Church is true.

Not what this thread is about and this thread is not about disproving the Church or an attack on the Church, but about analyzing those two specific christian conducts.
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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #129 on: January 17, 2013, 08:41:22 PM »
Quote
What is the positiveness of legalism, dogma and ritualism?

Well, among other things, it prevents you from splitting into 40.000 different denomination.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with rituals, as long they are not empty.

Ok.Good one.

What are the benefits of ones life who worships in a legalistic religion through rituals and religious system ?
Well, personally it has positively influenced my prayer  life.

how ? the church has specific composed prayers ?

I am trying to study this two christian behaviours and not necessarly the whole that it suppose a certain church.

So give arguments from this perspective of legalistic and ritualistic benefits in your life.


It's getting really late and I have to sleep soon, but I will give you a short answer.
Since many people (including myself) are not very good at praying, the Church offers help . Many of our prayers were written by great saints who lived very pious lives. We learn from them and develpoe our prayer life with the support and help from Chriist and His Church.

Ok, thanks for your patience and your answers.Good night!
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #130 on: January 17, 2013, 08:47:33 PM »
Not what I asked.And I'm not here to contest the Church.

You could have fooled me there.

What are the specific benefits(in your life) of worshiping through rituals and religious systems

The fact that I worship more or less in the same manner as my forefathers, the Saints and millions of Orthodox Christians worldwide and throughout the ages. It makes you feel that what you do is not arbitrary and idiosyncratic. You go beyond your narrow subjectivity and are a part of a larger Body. Rituals give you a certain discipline and a forma mentis, which is not imposed, but emulated and sought after like something precious.  

if you don't like the term legalism.Though i would say "a canon law" is pretty legalistic from my POV.Usually Law = Law.

Orthodoxy is not legalistic, because it does not impose a rigid legal corpus without regard for persons and circumstances - the spiritual father has the freedom of choosing between akribeia (strict adherence to the law) and oikonomia (leniency or complete overseeing of a rule, if it's in the person's best interest).

Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #131 on: January 17, 2013, 08:55:50 PM »
Not what I asked.And I'm not here to contest the Church.

You could have fooled me there.

What are the specific benefits(in your life) of worshiping through rituals and religious systems

The fact that I worship more or less in the same manner as my forefathers, the Saints and millions of Orthodox Christians worldwide and throughout the ages. It makes you feel that what you do is not arbitrary and idiosyncratic. You go beyond your narrow subjectivity and are a part of a larger Body. Rituals give you a certain discipline and a forma mentis, which is not imposed, but emulated and sought after like something precious.  

if you don't like the term legalism.Though i would say "a canon law" is pretty legalistic from my POV.Usually Law = Law.

Orthodoxy is not legalistic, because it does not impose a rigid legal corpus without regard for persons and circumstances - the spiritual father has the freedom of choosing between akribeia (strict adherence to the law) and oikonomia (leniency or complete overseeing of a rule, if it's in the person's best interest).

Good one : discipline.

Anyway you sound like you are in a conflict with yourself.You say you are not fully convinced and that you have doubts yet you force yourself down your throat with this.

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Offline Romaios

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #132 on: January 17, 2013, 09:27:25 PM »
Anyway you sound like you are in a conflict with yourself.You say you are not fully convinced and that you have doubts yet you force yourself down your throat with this.

At times I feel like that, at times I don't. Good medicine can taste bitter. If in the end it works, it's worth it to endure the bitterness.

There's the old man of the flesh and there's the new man of the spirit. The Christian is supposed to be in a constant struggle with himself, with the world and the adversary. That doesn't exclude joy, peace and serenity - one can actually experience conflicting emotions at the same time, albeit on different levels.  

Quote
For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold into slavery under sin. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do what is good, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God in my inmost self, but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin. Romans 7:14- 24


 
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 09:41:29 PM by Romaios »

Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #133 on: January 18, 2013, 04:10:06 AM »
Anyway you sound like you are in a conflict with yourself.You say you are not fully convinced and that you have doubts yet you force yourself down your throat with this.

At times I feel like that, at times I don't. Good medicine can taste bitter. If in the end it works, it's worth it to endure the bitterness.

There's the old man of the flesh and there's the new man of the spirit. The Christian is supposed to be in a constant struggle with himself, with the world and the adversary. That doesn't exclude joy, peace and serenity - one can actually experience conflicting emotions at the same time, albeit on different levels.  

Quote
For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold into slavery under sin. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do what is good, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God in my inmost self, but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin. Romans 7:14- 24


 

Than you are lying to yourself and living a dead religion.
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #134 on: January 18, 2013, 04:48:43 AM »
Anyway you sound like you are in a conflict with yourself.You say you are not fully convinced and that you have doubts yet you force yourself down your throat with this.

At times I feel like that, at times I don't. Good medicine can taste bitter. If in the end it works, it's worth it to endure the bitterness.

There's the old man of the flesh and there's the new man of the spirit. The Christian is supposed to be in a constant struggle with himself, with the world and the adversary. That doesn't exclude joy, peace and serenity - one can actually experience conflicting emotions at the same time, albeit on different levels.  

Quote
For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold into slavery under sin. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do what is good, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God in my inmost self, but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin. Romans 7:14- 24


 

Than you are lying to yourself and living a dead religion.
Are you sure, you're orthodox?
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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #135 on: January 18, 2013, 05:02:38 AM »
Anyway you sound like you are in a conflict with yourself.You say you are not fully convinced and that you have doubts yet you force yourself down your throat with this.

At times I feel like that, at times I don't. Good medicine can taste bitter. If in the end it works, it's worth it to endure the bitterness.

There's the old man of the flesh and there's the new man of the spirit. The Christian is supposed to be in a constant struggle with himself, with the world and the adversary. That doesn't exclude joy, peace and serenity - one can actually experience conflicting emotions at the same time, albeit on different levels.  

Quote
For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold into slavery under sin. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do what is good, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God in my inmost self, but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin. Romans 7:14- 24


 

Than you are lying to yourself and living a dead religion.
Are you sure, you're orthodox?

yes.what kind of question is that?

are you an orthodox?
Right here, right now.

Offline Ansgar

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #136 on: January 18, 2013, 05:13:29 AM »
Anyway you sound like you are in a conflict with yourself.You say you are not fully convinced and that you have doubts yet you force yourself down your throat with this.

At times I feel like that, at times I don't. Good medicine can taste bitter. If in the end it works, it's worth it to endure the bitterness.

There's the old man of the flesh and there's the new man of the spirit. The Christian is supposed to be in a constant struggle with himself, with the world and the adversary. That doesn't exclude joy, peace and serenity - one can actually experience conflicting emotions at the same time, albeit on different levels.  

Quote
For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold into slavery under sin. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do what is good, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God in my inmost self, but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin. Romans 7:14- 24


 

Than you are lying to yourself and living a dead religion.
Are you sure, you're orthodox?

yes.what kind of question is that?

are you an orthodox?
I am merely asking because you seem to have some significant objections or at least doubts about Orthodox dogma. I am not saying thataren't orthodox, I am simply clarifying. I'm sorry if it sounded different to you.
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Offline FlickFlack

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #137 on: January 18, 2013, 06:03:14 AM »
Anyway you sound like you are in a conflict with yourself.You say you are not fully convinced and that you have doubts yet you force yourself down your throat with this.

At times I feel like that, at times I don't. Good medicine can taste bitter. If in the end it works, it's worth it to endure the bitterness.

There's the old man of the flesh and there's the new man of the spirit. The Christian is supposed to be in a constant struggle with himself, with the world and the adversary. That doesn't exclude joy, peace and serenity - one can actually experience conflicting emotions at the same time, albeit on different levels.  

Quote
For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold into slavery under sin. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do what is good, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God in my inmost self, but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin. Romans 7:14- 24


 

Than you are lying to yourself and living a dead religion.
Are you sure, you're orthodox?

yes.what kind of question is that?

are you an orthodox?
I am merely asking because you seem to have some significant objections or at least doubts about Orthodox dogma. I am not saying thataren't orthodox, I am simply clarifying. I'm sorry if it sounded different to you.

No one is perfect.
Right here, right now.

Offline Romaios

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #138 on: January 18, 2013, 09:35:34 AM »
Than you are lying to yourself and living a dead religion.

If I deceive myself (always a possibility), thank God there are others whose living Orthodoxy may quicken me from the dead. 

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #139 on: January 18, 2013, 11:50:11 AM »
Quote
eople you can trust, like who, even the church fathers had errors.
The ecumenical counsils, for example.

ok but they are not people.and my next question would be which ones.there are a few "thief councils".

Just out of curiosity, at what point does a group of people (like a council) cease to be "people"?

This is grammar math I like.

Five people are in a room, one leaves.
Then there are four people in a room, one leaves.
Then there are three people in a room, one leaves.
Then there are two people in a room, one leaves.
Then there is one people in a room, one leaves.
Then there are no people in the room.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #140 on: January 18, 2013, 11:51:57 AM »
No one is perfect.

Actually three persons have been perfect, well at least if you are Orthodox.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #141 on: January 18, 2013, 11:52:57 AM »
Why is it that I don't see any Orthodox claim to be Spirit filled and guided by the Holy Spirit or anything in Orthodoxy for that matter?

What Who do you think the Paraclete is?
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #142 on: January 18, 2013, 11:58:34 AM »
The TOS for following Christ are as they are. Those who don't like them go find a better bargain.

Really? ToS?
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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #143 on: January 18, 2013, 04:21:26 PM »
The TOS for following Christ are as they are. Those who don't like them go find a better bargain.

Really? ToS?

Christianity is just an ancient scheme for selling your personal data to spiritual advertisers.

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #144 on: January 18, 2013, 04:31:24 PM »
No one is perfect.

Actually three persons have been perfect, well at least if you are Orthodox.

Are *you* Orthodox?
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #145 on: January 18, 2013, 04:36:52 PM »
No one is perfect.

Actually three persons have been perfect, well at least if you are Orthodox.

Are *you* Orthodox?

Am I wrong? The is the salient point here not my biography, although I do wax quite often about myself.
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Offline Shiny

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #146 on: January 18, 2013, 04:38:59 PM »
The TOS for following Christ are as they are. Those who don't like them go find a better bargain.

Really? ToS?

I don't like how you are pushing back.

Buy hey you gotta follow those Christianity rules before using Christ as a service.
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #147 on: January 18, 2013, 04:49:31 PM »
No one is perfect.

Actually three persons have been perfect, well at least if you are Orthodox.

Are *you* Orthodox?

Am I wrong? The is the salient point here not my biography, although I do wax quite often about myself.

Does that mean you are Orthodox, or that you are not?  Why is that so difficult?  Salient point?  :laugh: :laugh:  When has sticking with the salient point ever bothered anyone, or you?  No, you're not wrong.  But....are you Orthodox?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 04:59:30 PM by J Michael »
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Offline tweety234

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #148 on: January 18, 2013, 07:28:02 PM »
The TOS for following Christ are as they are. Those who don't like them go find a better bargain.

Really? ToS?

Christianity is just an ancient scheme for selling your personal data to spiritual advertisers.

Then why are you a christian?
“God has no religion.”
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #149 on: January 18, 2013, 07:36:26 PM »
The TOS for following Christ are as they are. Those who don't like them go find a better bargain.

Really? ToS?

Christianity is just an ancient scheme for selling your personal data to spiritual advertisers.

Then why are you a christian?

Have you and Sarcasm been introduced?
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Offline tweety234

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #150 on: January 18, 2013, 07:41:07 PM »
The TOS for following Christ are as they are. Those who don't like them go find a better bargain.

Really? ToS?

Christianity is just an ancient scheme for selling your personal data to spiritual advertisers.

Then why are you a christian?

Have you and Sarcasm been introduced?

I AM HE
“God has no religion.”
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #151 on: January 19, 2013, 03:32:56 PM »
The TOS for following Christ are as they are. Those who don't like them go find a better bargain.

Really? ToS?

Christianity is just an ancient scheme for selling your personal data to spiritual advertisers.

Then why are you a christian?

Have you and Sarcasm been introduced?

I AM HE

But do you know yourself?
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Offline Anastasia1

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #152 on: January 19, 2013, 05:39:13 PM »
@JamesR

The christian God is a feeling.



Admittedly blind post beyond this, but the Christian God is not a feeling but a personal and omnipotent deity. Feelings did not create the world, feelings did not create all of the miracles that have occurred both in scripture and since it's compilation, feelings did not make a virgin pregnant, nor did they die on the cross for our salvation. Feelings can lie, but a structured world that supercedes feelings exists. God is bigger and more than our feelings.

And upon further reading, it has always been my understanding that when we say God is love, we mean that He embodies what love is, not that love necessarily equals God.  Real love should also be more than an emotion. Patience, kindness, not seeking our own, etc. (from 1 Cor. 13) these are not mere emotions but have actions that show them.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 05:44:04 PM by Anastasia1 »
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Offline tweety234

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #153 on: January 19, 2013, 08:16:05 PM »
The TOS for following Christ are as they are. Those who don't like them go find a better bargain.

Really? ToS?

What is there to know besides the fact that I am Sarcasm?

Christianity is just an ancient scheme for selling your personal data to spiritual advertisers.

Then why are you a christian?

Have you and Sarcasm been introduced?

I AM HE

But do you know yourself?
“God has no religion.”
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Offline tweety234

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #154 on: January 23, 2013, 01:00:58 PM »
I don't understand why somebody thinks that you can't have a personal relationship with God and still be orthodox. We have thousands of people who have had a personal relationship with God. We don't need to turn all charismatic to do that.

can you name some?
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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #155 on: January 23, 2013, 01:03:46 PM »
I don't understand why somebody thinks that you can't have a personal relationship with God and still be orthodox. We have thousands of people who have had a personal relationship with God. We don't need to turn all charismatic to do that.

can you name some?
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #156 on: January 23, 2013, 01:08:08 PM »
I don't understand why somebody thinks that you can't have a personal relationship with God and still be orthodox. We have thousands of people who have had a personal relationship with God. We don't need to turn all charismatic to do that.

can you name some?
St Silouan the athonite, St Anthony the Great, St John of Kronstadt, St Xenia of Moscow etc.
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Offline mike

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #157 on: January 23, 2013, 01:21:07 PM »
I don't understand why somebody thinks that you can't have a personal relationship with God and still be orthodox. We have thousands of people who have had a personal relationship with God. We don't need to turn all charismatic to do that.

can you name some?

What is "personal relation with God". You meet Him in a pub and have some beers together or what?
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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #158 on: January 23, 2013, 01:49:54 PM »
I don't understand why somebody thinks that you can't have a personal relationship with God and still be orthodox. We have thousands of people who have had a personal relationship with God. We don't need to turn all charismatic to do that.

can you name some?

What is "personal relation with God". You meet Him in a pub and have some beers together or what?

Well....it's like this...first you exchange cell-phone numbers, *then* you make the pub date.  ;D
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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #159 on: January 23, 2013, 02:30:49 PM »
I don't understand why somebody thinks that you can't have a personal relationship with God and still be orthodox. We have thousands of people who have had a personal relationship with God. We don't need to turn all charismatic to do that.

can you name some?

What is "personal relation with God". You meet Him in a pub and have some beers together or what?

Well....it's like this...first you exchange cell-phone numbers, *then* you make the pub date.  ;D

At least He can always be the designated driver...
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Religious Systems
« Reply #160 on: January 23, 2013, 03:00:04 PM »
I don't understand why somebody thinks that you can't have a personal relationship with God and still be orthodox. We have thousands of people who have had a personal relationship with God. We don't need to turn all charismatic to do that.

can you name some?

What is "personal relation with God". You meet Him in a pub and have some beers together or what?

Well....it's like this...first you exchange cell-phone numbers, *then* you make the pub date.  ;D

At least He can always be the designated driver...

Only if we let Him  ;).
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