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Author Topic: Importance of Dogma/Doctrine  (Read 2819 times) Average Rating: 0
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FlickFlack
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« Reply #45 on: January 19, 2013, 01:16:22 PM »

I'd be interested to know, first of all, how you are defining "happiness," and why you think that is what faith is supposed to be.

Being blessed in life and satisfied.Having a vivid, sunny colourful life.

We love everything brilliant on earth:  gold, silver, precious stones, crystal, bright clothing—why, then, do we not love the future glory to which the Lord calls us?  Why do we not aspire to shine like the sun?  Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father, (Matt 13:43).  It is because we have perverted the nature of our soul by sin, and have attached ourselves to earth instead of to heaven, to corruptible things instead of to incorruptible ones; because we love earthly, transitory, perishable, and seductive splendor.  But why is there such a love for everything bright in us?  Because our soul was created for heavenly light, and was originally all light, all radiance; thus light is inborn in it, the feeling and desire for light are inborn in it.  Direct this aspiration to seeking for heavenly light!

 

St. John of Kronstadt, My Life in Christ

What is this correct doctrine suppose to impart and give to our lives?

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« Reply #46 on: January 19, 2013, 01:51:50 PM »

What is this correct doctrine suppose to impart and give to our lives?

Taste and see.

Your persistent interrogations and flippant dismissal of simple faith as a hopelessly "circular" and irrational affair do not seem to come from a sincere desire for knowledge, but come across as rather disgusting.

If you take this pragmatic approach to faith, it has little if anything at all to offer. You'd be better off practicing some Oriental New Age crap to enhance your positive thinking and temporary well-being. True Christianity is "the narrow and sorrowful path". It doesn't bring you worldly advantages, joy and rosy 'feelings', but a lot of heartache and suffering. Hell first, heaven later...

"If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." (Matthew 16, 24)

"All who want to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted." (2 Timothy 3, 12)

"Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh. (...) But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation. Woe to you who are full now, for you will be hungry. Woe to you who are laughing now, for you will mourn and weep. Woe to you when all speak well of you, for that is what their ancestors did to the false prophets." (Luke 6)
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FlickFlack
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« Reply #47 on: January 19, 2013, 02:08:55 PM »

What is this correct doctrine suppose to impart and give to our lives?

Taste and see.

Your persistent interrogations and flippant dismissal of simple faith as a hopelessly "circular" and irrational affair do not seem to come from a sincere desire for knowledge, but come across as rather disgusting.

If you take this pragmatic approach to faith, it has little if anything at all to offer. You'd be better off practicing some Oriental New Age crap to enhance your positive thinking and well-being in this world. True Christianity is "the narrow and sorrowful path". It doesn't bring you worldly advantages, joy and rosy 'feelings', but a lot of heartache and suffering. Hell first, heaven later...

"If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." (Matthew 16, 24)

"All who want to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted." (2 Timothy 3, 12)

"Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh. (...) But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation. Woe to you who are full now, for you will be hungry. Woe to you who are laughing now, for you will mourn and weep. Woe to you when all speak well of you, for that is what their ancestors did to the false prophets." (Luke 6)

Why should we want heartache, sorrow and sorrowful things?

You said Hell first heaven later.When is this later?

*No one forces you to read my posts or more to reply to them.If you are disgusted by them turn your sight in a different location.

*If you continue with this cheap bickering I might consider putting you on permanent Ignore.
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« Reply #48 on: January 19, 2013, 02:22:57 PM »

Why should we want heartache, sorrow and sorrowful things?

You said Hell first heaven later.When is this later?

"The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which someone found and hid; then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls; on finding one pearl of great value, he went and sold all that he had and bought it." (Mattew 13)

*If you continue with this cheap bickering I might consider putting you on permanent Ignore.

Now that would be a terrible loss for me, I assure you.

Pray tell me, why is my bickering cheap and why are your questions precious?
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FlickFlack
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« Reply #49 on: January 19, 2013, 02:39:31 PM »

Why should we want heartache, sorrow and sorrowful things?

You said Hell first heaven later.When is this later?

"The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which someone found and hid; then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls; on finding one pearl of great value, he went and sold all that he had and bought it." (Mattew 13)

Non-answer.

Quote
*If you continue with this cheap bickering I might consider putting you on permanent Ignore.

Now that would be a terrible loss for me, I assure you.

Pray tell me, why is my bickering cheap and why are your questions precious?

In a civilized forum people should discuss ideas not people and not get into personal Adhominem attacks, masked trolling and bickering.

I will take your replies with a grain of salt.
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« Reply #50 on: January 19, 2013, 02:40:43 PM »

Quote
Why should we want heartache, sorrow and sorrowful things?

We should desire the Kingdom of God, but the path that leads to it is narrow and full of harships.



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FlickFlack
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« Reply #51 on: January 19, 2013, 02:42:13 PM »



Pray tell me, why is my bickering cheap

because in general every bickering is cheap.
Quote
and why are your questions precious?

because I am 100xtimes more spiritually evolved than you.
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« Reply #52 on: January 19, 2013, 02:46:28 PM »

because I am 100xtimes more spiritually evolved than you.

Lawl.
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« Reply #53 on: January 19, 2013, 02:52:45 PM »

Why should we want heartache, sorrow and sorrowful things?

You said Hell first heaven later.When is this later?

"The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which someone found and hid; then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls; on finding one pearl of great value, he went and sold all that he had and bought it." (Mattew 13)

Non-answer.

The answer is there's no such thing as cheap grace and instant gratification in Christianity. If you are convinced that it is indeed 'the pearl of great price' and it's worth all you have, then you joyfully put yourself through hell to get it. And that hell you'll experience as a foretaste of heaven here on earth. "Later" is when the kingdom comes and the pyramid of this world is turned upside-down. Then the last shall become the first, the ones who mourn now will laugh, the meek will inherit the earth, those persecuted for righteousness and for Christ's sake will be acknowledged by him in front of the Father, and so forth.

I will take your replies with a grain of salt.

In Romanian we say you must eat a sackful of salt together till you get to know someone...
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« Reply #54 on: January 19, 2013, 02:56:22 PM »

because I am 100xtimes more spiritually evolved than you.

I am happy for you. The Christian ideal is to be "poor in spirit", though... So don't mind if I take that as a compliment.  Wink
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FlickFlack
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« Reply #55 on: January 19, 2013, 03:00:21 PM »



In Romanian we say you must eat a sackful of salt together till you get to know someone...

I already ate enough salt with you. IGNORED! untill when I feel to...
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« Reply #56 on: January 19, 2013, 03:05:23 PM »

FF :  "...If salvation is a state of being, than what you need most is to be.I've met a lot of people including clergy who were well grounded in the letter of the Orthodox dogma but were spiritually unevolved.

Just being is not salvation.  And how are you qualified to know enough about anyone else to pronounce someone as "spiritually unevolved"?  You know everything about that person, what they've suffered, what they face, their weaknesses and strengths, you know their private thoughts, their most inward insecurities, you know how their earthly life will end?  You really know a lot!  Are you SURE you don't really have a secret fondness for 'judgemental bigoted' types?

FF:  "...There are a lot of Orthodox who know well the letter of Orthodxy, but when you make them explain their faith they are incapable in doing so.They have no comprehension and besides this letter turns them into self-righteous, judgemental, fearful, extremists bigots...."

Ah, so you expect an Orthodox to perform explanations to you like a dog doing tricks?  You are very powerful indeed to 'make them explain their faith'.  Now it is becoming more clear to me why you are not getting much conversation from a priest. 

Yes, Orthodox people are sinners and imperfect just like everyone else.  Various people apply themselves to various degrees to the practice of their faith.  There will be wheat and tares.  God knows all this and has expressed this perfectly throughout the Bible.  That's another good thing about Lent and the prayers St. Ephrem: 

Oh Lord and Master of my life, give not to me the spirit of sloth, meddling, lust for power, idle talk.

But a spirit of chastity, humility, patience and love, bestow up me Thy servant.

O Lord King, grant me to see mine own failings, and not to condemn my brother; for blessed art Thou unto the ages of ages.

It's also why we pray Psalm 50 a minimum of two times a day. 


FF:  "...What I am saying is that dogma can and usually stays in the way of human interactions and human love, on tends to give a judgemental flair in human relationships...."

My experience in the practice of the Orthodox faith has shown me that the only way for me to love people is through Christ.  There is a difference between parsing right from wrong type of 'judgment' and condemnation.  You seem to be mixing the terms, and would prefer a totally relativistic view of life, where everything must be acceptable to us, or else we are faulty.  It's a false dichotomy, and ironically, your view is the more intolerant view.

FF:  "...What will be the criteria of the Judgement : what we believe of God or our human relationships? What is the difference between gnosticism and Christian(Orthodox) theology?..."

Ask God about His judgement which is His alone.  Pray everyday, with all your heart.  Remember God in every breath you take.  Love God with all your heart mind soul body your entire being and your neighbor as yourself.

I will not be a dog doing tricks for you, but gnostics basically see the world and flesh as evil, the higher spiritual plane as good.  There was supposedly some hidden knowledge that would be secretly passed to initiates.  Nobody knows what that 'secret' stuff was, but it was the basis for the old gnostics.  There are still gnostic texts surviving, like the Pistis Sophia.  You can get a copy and read for yourself.  There may be even free copies online.  The modern day versions are variously expressed, but would be like a New Age proponent who insists that someone has to be initiated into the mysteries by a master or adept to reach enlightenment. 

Christianity is not based on 'secret knowledge' but is open to everyone.  Priests are not gurus.  God is 'everywhere present and fills all things', so there is appreciation and gratitude to God for this creation an for our very lives, which find their greatest expression when lived in union with God.  The Orthodox Church has the best map to get to union with God, only people have to use the map, not sit on it. 
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« Reply #57 on: January 19, 2013, 03:09:52 PM »

I'd be interested to know, first of all, how you are defining "happiness," and why you think that is what faith is supposed to be.

Being blessed in life and satisfied.Having a vivid, sunny colourful life.

We love everything brilliant on earth:  gold, silver, precious stones, crystal, bright clothing—why, then, do we not love the future glory to which the Lord calls us?  Why do we not aspire to shine like the sun?  Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father, (Matt 13:43).  It is because we have perverted the nature of our soul by sin, and have attached ourselves to earth instead of to heaven, to corruptible things instead of to incorruptible ones; because we love earthly, transitory, perishable, and seductive splendor.  But why is there such a love for everything bright in us?  Because our soul was created for heavenly light, and was originally all light, all radiance; thus light is inborn in it, the feeling and desire for light are inborn in it.  Direct this aspiration to seeking for heavenly light!

 

St. John of Kronstadt, My Life in Christ

What is this correct doctrine suppose to impart and give to our lives?




Try it and find out!   
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FlickFlack
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« Reply #58 on: January 19, 2013, 03:34:51 PM »

FF :  "...If salvation is a state of being, than what you need most is to be.I've met a lot of people including clergy who were well grounded in the letter of the Orthodox dogma but were spiritually unevolved.

Just being is not salvation.  And how are you qualified to know enough about anyone else to pronounce someone as "spiritually unevolved"?  You know everything about that person, what they've suffered, what they face, their weaknesses and strengths, you know their private thoughts, their most inward insecurities, you know how their earthly life will end?  You really know a lot!  Are you SURE you don't really have a secret fondness for 'judgemental bigoted' types?

I meant a certain state of being, and being in that state, not just merely being.

Quote
FF:  "...There are a lot of Orthodox who know well the letter of Orthodxy, but when you make them explain their faith they are incapable in doing so.They have no comprehension and besides this letter turns them into self-righteous, judgemental, fearful, extremists bigots...."

Ah, so you expect an Orthodox to perform explanations to you like a dog doing tricks?  You are very powerful indeed to 'make them explain their faith'.  Now it is becoming more clear to me why you are not getting much conversation from a priest.  

No, I expect spiritual people to actually know what they speak, not to merely repeat certain memorised slogans.

Quote
Yes, Orthodox people are sinners and imperfect just like everyone else.  Various people apply themselves to various degrees to the practice of their faith.  There will be wheat and tares.  God knows all this and has expressed this perfectly throughout the Bible.  That's another good thing about Lent and the prayers St. Ephrem:
Oh Lord and Master of my life, give not to me the spirit of sloth, meddling, lust for power, idle talk.

But a spirit of chastity, humility, patience and love, bestow up me Thy servant.

O Lord King, grant me to see mine own failings, and not to condemn my brother; for blessed art Thou unto the ages of ages.

It's also why we pray Psalm 50 a minimum of two times a day.  

I am not judging Orthodoxy.I speak of a specific religious behaviour I noticed from my frame of reference(I am Orthodox,I've been Orthodox for decades,born into an Orthodox country).I didn't say that this happens only in Orthodoxy or that all Orthodox are like that.



Quote
FF:  "...What I am saying is that dogma can and usually stays in the way of human interactions and human love, on tends to give a judgemental flair in human relationships...."

My experience in the practice of the Orthodox faith has shown me that the only way for me to love people is through Christ.  There is a difference between parsing right from wrong type of 'judgment' and condemnation.  You seem to be mixing the terms, and would prefer a totally relativistic view of life, where everything must be acceptable to us, or else we are faulty.  It's a false dichotomy, and ironically, your view is the more intolerant view.

Just look at people that judge others based on their denominational affiliation as lost, accursed,subhuman,outsider,etc.
Quote
FF:  "...What will be the criteria of the Judgement : what we believe of God or our human relationships? What is the difference between gnosticism and Christian(Orthodox) theology?..."

Ask God about His judgement which is His alone.  Pray everyday, with all your heart.  Remember God in every breath you take.  Love God with all your heart mind soul body your entire being and your neighbor as yourself.

I will not be a dog doing tricks for you, but gnostics basically see the world and flesh as evil, the higher spiritual plane as good.  There was supposedly some hidden knowledge that would be secretly passed to initiates.  Nobody knows what that 'secret' stuff was, but it was the basis for the old gnostics.  There are still gnostic texts surviving, like the Pistis Sophia.  You can get a copy and read for yourself.  There may be even free copies online.  The modern day versions are variously expressed, but would be like a New Age proponent who insists that someone has to be initiated into the mysteries by a master or adept to reach enlightenment.  

Christianity is not based on 'secret knowledge' but is open to everyone.  Priests are not gurus.  God is 'everywhere present and fills all things', so there is appreciation and gratitude to God for this creation an for our very lives, which find their greatest expression when lived in union with God.  The Orthodox Church has the best map to get to union with God, only people have to use the map, not sit on it.  


The two questions are connected.Will the judgement be based on a particular doctrine belief or on a theistic humanist relationship?

Gnosticism is a religious philosophy/theology that ascribes to "salvation" through a special knowledge.That is why I asked what is the difference between Gnosticism and Christian theology.And the question still stands.
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« Reply #59 on: January 19, 2013, 03:42:40 PM »

I already ate enough salt with you. IGNORED! untill when I feel to...

One compliment after another!

"You are the salt of the earth; but if salt has lost its taste, how can its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything, but is thrown out and trampled under foot." (Matthew 5, 13)
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« Reply #60 on: January 19, 2013, 03:51:15 PM »

Gnosticism is a religious philosophy/theology that ascribes to "salvation" through a special knowledge.That is why I asked what is the difference between Gnosticism and Christian theology.And the question still stands.

"This is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." (John 17, 3)
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« Reply #61 on: January 19, 2013, 03:54:27 PM »

Can somebody tell that guy he is out of my centre of attention?  police
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« Reply #62 on: January 19, 2013, 04:14:02 PM »

because I am 100xtimes more spiritually evolved than you.

And here is the key problem.
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« Reply #63 on: January 19, 2013, 04:23:27 PM »

I'd be interested to know, first of all, how you are defining "happiness," and why you think that is what faith is supposed to be.

Being blessed in life and satisfied.Having a vivid, sunny colourful life.

We love everything brilliant on earth:  gold, silver, precious stones, crystal, bright clothing—whOy, then, do we not love the future glory to which the Lord calls us?  Why do we not aspire to shine like the sun?  Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father, (Matt 13:43).  It is because we have perverted the nature of our soul by sin, and have attached ourselves to earth instead of to heaven, to corruptible things instead of to incorruptible ones; because we love earthly, transitory, perishable, and seductive splendor.  But why is there such a love for everything bright in us?  Because our soul was created for heavenly light, and was originally all light, all radiance; thus light is inborn in it, the feeling and desire for light are inborn in it.  Direct this aspiration to seeking for heavenly light!

 

St. John of Kronstadt, My Life in Christ

What is this correct doctrine suppose to impart and give to our lives?



I would imagine it is supposed to bring a person into a fully realized relationship with the Trinity through the person of Jesus of Nazareth. At the risk of making you upset and trying to bait and switch the question, I would suggest asking the question, what is correct doctrin supposed to impart and give to the Trinity. Maybe it would be more accurate to say what could it(correct doctirne) give BACK to the Trinity, seeing as everything you have came from God anyway.
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« Reply #64 on: January 19, 2013, 04:30:18 PM »

@Ashman618

Is that in antithesis with worldly bliss?

No switch and baits here please. Smiley

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« Reply #65 on: January 19, 2013, 04:48:17 PM »

@Ashman618

Is that in antithesis with worldly bliss?

No switch and baits here please. Smiley



Is a fully realized relationship with Jesus directly opposed to worldly bliss hmmmm... That's difficult to answer!

I'm sorry I can't field this one, I'm not qualified to give an genuinely Orthodox answer


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« Reply #66 on: January 19, 2013, 05:07:13 PM »

What do you mean by "wordly bliss?"
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« Reply #67 on: January 19, 2013, 05:17:32 PM »

What do you mean by "wordly bliss?"

Things of the world.
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« Reply #68 on: January 19, 2013, 05:23:47 PM »



I meant a certain state of being, and being in that state, not just merely being. [quote}

And how do you reach that state of being in your estimation?

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« Reply #69 on: January 19, 2013, 05:31:28 PM »

I'm sorry, to all. 

I really don't understand how to use this method of corresponding.  I cannot seem to get the quote thing down so a conversation can be tracked and posted in order, and it becomes too time consuming. 

I also don't understand why an "Orthodox person, raised in an Orthodox country" is posting in a convert issues area of the forum to inform Orthodox here that they are judgmental and bigoted for being Orthodox. 

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« Reply #70 on: January 19, 2013, 05:35:32 PM »

I'm sorry, to all.  

I really don't understand how to use this method of corresponding.  I cannot seem to get the quote thing down so a conversation can be tracked and posted in order, and it becomes too time consuming.  

I also don't understand why an "Orthodox person, raised in an Orthodox country" is posting in a convert issues area of the forum to inform Orthodox here that they are judgmental and bigoted for being Orthodox.  



I did not post to inform anyone anything.I posted because I needed to be informed.In case you haven't noticed my posts on this thread are questions.I thought I started this thread in the Faith Issue section.Perhaps the Mods moved it?
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« Reply #71 on: January 19, 2013, 05:37:29 PM »

I'm sorry, to all. 

I really don't understand how to use this method of corresponding.  I cannot seem to get the quote thing down so a conversation can be tracked and posted in order, and it becomes too time consuming. 

I also don't understand why an "Orthodox person, raised in an Orthodox country" is posting in a convert issues area of the forum to inform Orthodox here that they are judgmental and bigoted for being Orthodox. 



I don't think he is talking about all orthodox christians. I just think he has some concerns about certain aspects of Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #72 on: January 19, 2013, 05:47:02 PM »

I tried to answer you before, and apparently I am not clear enough in my communication.

Your original question was about the importance of dogma/doctrine, not to call me and others to account for your interpretation of other people's behavior in who knows what country even.  I have no idea what has occurred in your life, but I'm sorry that you feel so bad about Orthodoxy now, and I'm sorry I'm so lousy with this computer format.



I'll put you in Paschal red:

FF:  I am not judging Orthodoxy.I speak of a specific religious behaviour I noticed from my frame of reference(I am Orthodox,I've been Orthodox for decades,born into an Orthodox country).I didn't say that this happens only in Orthodoxy or that all Orthodox are like that.

FF further states: The two questions are connected.Will the judgement be based on a particular doctrine belief or on a theistic humanist relationship?

Gnosticism is a religious philosophy/theology that ascribes to "salvation" through a special knowledge.That is why I asked what is the difference between Gnosticism and Christian theology.And the question still stands.



The question does not stand in my opinion, because I'm not God.  Even the Church will not say that everyone outside the Church is lost to God.  St. Paul says we judge those inside, God judges those outside.  We don't know in others words, but within our Church we are accountable to each other.


You may want to start a new thread in a more appropriate area of the forum if you want to do a comparative religion/philosophy question on gnosticism and Christianity.

The moderators can decide if that is really a convert issue. 


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« Reply #73 on: January 19, 2013, 06:06:49 PM »

I'm sorry, to all.  

I really don't understand how to use this method of corresponding.  I cannot seem to get the quote thing down so a conversation can be tracked and posted in order, and it becomes too time consuming.  

I also don't understand why an "Orthodox person, raised in an Orthodox country" is posting in a convert issues area of the forum to inform Orthodox here that they are judgmental and bigoted for being Orthodox.  



I did not post to inform anyone anything.I posted because I needed to be informed.In case you haven't noticed my posts on this thread are questions.I thought I started this thread in the Faith Issue section.Perhaps the Mods moved it?


So a bunch of people tried their best to answer.  

How is dogma / doctrine important to salvation?  Because Christ is our salvation.  There is nothing outside of God.  

In summary, outside Orthodox dogma, there are many ideas about the person of Christ.  They usually err either in making too much of the God aspect, or too little of the human aspect.  It was a lot even for the disciples to understand Jesus Christ.  

Nobody is guaranteed salvation in Orthodoxy.  Look at the icon of the Ladder of Divine Ascent from St. Catherine's Monastery at Sinai : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Ladder_of_Divine_Ascent_Monastery_of_St_Catherine_Sinai_12th_century.jpg


Look who is being hooked and pulled off the ladder by demons.  This is a difficult way to navigate, but don't forget, as you show mercy, so will God show mercy to you.

 

I wish I were better person to answer your question fully, but I thought I would try because I truly believe Christ is the Way, and the Sacraments of the Church are what help us navigate this most difficult path.

For example, who gets to see God?  The pure in heart.  Am I pure in heart?  NO.  So I keep praying, practice my faith, ask God for help, confess my sins, and participate in the Eucharist, which means Thanksgiving.  I approach in great humility, because I know things that happen during the Divine Liturgy that are truly awesome and outside this material realm.  Ultimately it is God's mercy on me, but that doesn't mean I don't have to yoke my will to His to the greatest extent of my ability.

Thank you for considering my words, and for your patience with my terrible computer skills.

Edit: to put in shorter link to the icon of the Ladder of Divine Ascent.  I hope it is acceptable to put that link there.
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« Reply #74 on: January 19, 2013, 06:14:22 PM »

I'm sorry, to all.  

I really don't understand how to use this method of corresponding.  I cannot seem to get the quote thing down so a conversation can be tracked and posted in order, and it becomes too time consuming.  

I also don't understand why an "Orthodox person, raised in an Orthodox country" is posting in a convert issues area of the forum to inform Orthodox here that they are judgmental and bigoted for being Orthodox.  



I did not post to inform anyone anything.I posted because I needed to be informed.In case you haven't noticed my posts on this thread are questions.I thought I started this thread in the Faith Issue section.Perhaps the Mods moved it?


okay well, it seems that some of your questions come off as "when did you stop beating your wife?" or something to that effect.
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« Reply #75 on: January 19, 2013, 07:20:07 PM »

...because I am 100xtimes more spiritually evolved than you.


 Shocked Woooah.....

Tread vigilantly partner--you are demonstrating pride, which is the total anti-thesis of Christian spirituality. The former--what you call being "spiritually evolved"--is rather what we would call spiritual deception and delusion coming from the Devil, whereas the latter--humility, meekness, full of love--is what we would call true spiritual evolution.
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Great googly moogly!


« Reply #76 on: January 19, 2013, 08:06:02 PM »

Why should we want heartache, sorrow and sorrowful things?

You said Hell first heaven later.When is this later?

"The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which someone found and hid; then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls; on finding one pearl of great value, he went and sold all that he had and bought it." (Mattew 13)

Non-answer.

The answer is there's no such thing as cheap grace and instant gratification in Christianity. If you are convinced that it is indeed 'the pearl of great price' and it's worth all you have, then you joyfully put yourself through hell to get it. And that hell you'll experience as a foretaste of heaven here on earth. "Later" is when the kingdom comes and the pyramid of this world is turned upside-down. Then the last shall become the first, the ones who mourn now will laugh, the meek will inherit the earth, those persecuted for righteousness and for Christ's sake will be acknowledged by him in front of the Father, and so forth.

I will take your replies with a grain of salt.

In Romanian we say you must eat a sackful of salt together till you get to know someone...

I like that .

In Greek there is a dance called how we grind the pepper together. Wink And it is usually played very late when everyone has had a few and it can go on forever.
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« Reply #77 on: January 20, 2013, 12:12:29 AM »

What do you mean by "wordly bliss?"

Things of the world.

So, happiness for you is ease in this life, wealth, the fulfillment of sensual desires.

Something Herod, Stalin, and Rand can all agree on.
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« Reply #78 on: January 20, 2013, 12:49:46 AM »

FlickFlack (though I would much prefer to address you by your Christian name)-

Since it would seem that the answers and suggestions you find here, or within your parish community for that matter, do not satisfy your questions, may I suggest the possibility of visiting an Orthodox monastery within your area and seeking counsel with an Elder of that monastery? You are in Greece, from what I gather? If so, where?

I would strongly suggest doing this under the guidance of your Priest and that, moreover, these are the sort of thoughts that are probably best addressed (to your priest, or perhaps to a monastic Elder or Priest of his designation) within the context of confession, as the Lord is present in a special way within the sacrament.

It would also be fitting to humbly pray to the Lord and the Mother of God to please show you the truth.

It would be helpful to learn more about you and your circumstances, especially your relationship to your church community, in order for anyone here to better advise you on these matters.

May God guide you.
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« Reply #79 on: January 20, 2013, 12:50:42 AM »

In Greek there is a dance called how we grind the pepper together. Wink And it is usually played very late when everyone has had a few and it can go on forever.

Would that be Πώς το τρίβουν το πιπέρι?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b342Ridjdvs

I've read that it's a carnival song associated with the Vlachs and some curious fertility ceremonies:

http://www.aglaiakremezi.com/articles/general/clean-monday-unusual-greek-vegetarian-feast.html
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Great googly moogly!


« Reply #80 on: January 20, 2013, 07:14:43 PM »

In Greek there is a dance called how we grind the pepper together. Wink And it is usually played very late when everyone has had a few and it can go on forever.

Would that be Πώς το τρίβουν το πιπέρι?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b342Ridjdvs

I've read that it's a carnival song associated with the Vlachs and some curious fertility ceremonies:

http://www.aglaiakremezi.com/articles/general/clean-monday-unusual-greek-vegetarian-feast.html

Yes , and in Greek the word Vlachi is meant to mean stupid greek hillbilly
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« Reply #81 on: January 20, 2013, 07:21:20 PM »

Something Herod, Stalin, and Rand can all agree on.

Stalin led an ascetic life.
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« Reply #82 on: January 20, 2013, 08:26:06 PM »

Something Herod, Stalin, and Rand can all agree on.

Stalin led an ascetic life.

Well, that is true. But, in a way, he feasted on people and enjoyed power. But he was a complex man.
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« Reply #83 on: January 21, 2013, 01:31:40 AM »

Closing this topic as going off topic.

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