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Nero
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« on: January 14, 2013, 10:15:02 PM »

So here's just a general question - patristics would be helpful, if anyone knows of any:

How does one become possessed by a demon?

The Antiochian page about Insanity and Demonic Possession says very compassionate things about the possessed, including that the Saints even admired people who were possessed. But if they were admirable, how did they end up becoming possessed?

Quote
Chrysostom admires at least some of the possessed because “the demon makes men humble. … Great is the admiration it calls for, and many the praises, when struggling against such a spirit, they bear all thankfully …” (St. John Chrysostom, 1979a, p. 254).

The Orthodox prayers of exorcism are remarkably gentle towards the possessed person. The prayers are directed to God, or they sternly command the demons; there are no harsh words for the demoniac. In one place, they even refer to the possessed as the Theotokos’s “faithful servant” (St. Tikhon’s Monastery 1999, p. 17).
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 10:18:05 PM by Nero » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2013, 10:33:47 PM »

Can demons see into the future and tell you your fortune?
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« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2013, 10:38:12 PM »

So here's just a general question - patristics would be helpful, if anyone knows of any:

How does one become possessed by a demon?

The Antiochian page about Insanity and Demonic Possession says very compassionate things about the possessed, including that the Saints even admired people who were possessed. But if they were admirable, how did they end up becoming possessed?

Quote
Chrysostom admires at least some of the possessed because “the demon makes men humble. … Great is the admiration it calls for, and many the praises, when struggling against such a spirit, they bear all thankfully …” (St. John Chrysostom, 1979a, p. 254).

The Orthodox prayers of exorcism are remarkably gentle towards the possessed person. The prayers are directed to God, or they sternly command the demons; there are no harsh words for the demoniac. In one place, they even refer to the possessed as the Theotokos’s “faithful servant” (St. Tikhon’s Monastery 1999, p. 17).

Like do you mean physically, spiritually or what?
Also do you mean like specifics, what words to say, or actions to take?

I sort of disagree I've witnessed Orthodox exorcisms.   There are somewhat harsh words for the demon...
"Let God Arise, let his enemies be scattered, let those who hate him flee from before his face, as wax melts before a fire...."   (said, no beautifully sung like during Pascha etc.)

Here is some more info:
http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7079
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« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2013, 10:39:22 PM »

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Wherefore if they pretend to foretell the future, let no one give heed, for often they announce beforehand that the brethren are coming days after. And they do come. The demons, however, do this not from any care for the hearers, but to gain their trust, and that then at length, having got them in their power, they may destroy them. Whence we must give no heed to them, but ought rather to confute them when speaking, since we do not need them. For what wonder is it, if with more subtle bodies than men have , when they have seen them start on their journey, they surpass them in speed, and announce their coming? Just as a horseman getting a start of a man on foot announces the arrival of the latter beforehand, so in this there is no need for us to wonder at them. For they know none of those things which are not yet in existence; but God only is He who knows all things before their birth. But these, like thieves, running off first with what they see, proclaim it: to how many already have they announced our business— that we are assembled together, and discuss measures against them, before any one of us could go and tell these things. This in good truth a fleet-footed boy could do, getting far ahead of one less swift. But what I mean is this. If any one begins to walk from the Thebaid, or from any other district, before he begins to walk, they do not know whether he will walk. But when they have seen him walking they run on, and before he comes up report his approach. And so it falls out that after a few days the travellers arrive. But often the walkers turn back, and the demons prove false.

-- St. Athanasius, Life of St. Anthony, 31
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« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2013, 10:39:44 PM »

Can demons see into the future and tell you your fortune?

hehe...

Well those who believe in Shamans etc., think so.
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« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2013, 10:43:32 PM »

Can demons see into the future and tell you your fortune?

hehe...

Well those who believe in Shamans etc., think so.

When I was a kid I used to be interested in that weirdo occult stuff--wanting to know my future, who I'll marry, what my job'll be, how/when I'll die etc...good thing I found Orthodoxy before I screwed up and did something that could throw my life away  Grin
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« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2013, 11:03:10 PM »


Like do you mean physically, spiritually or what?
Also do you mean like specifics, what words to say, or actions to take?


Yes - what's the process? I'm certainly not looking to be possessed, but I want to know how it is one person ends up in that condition? Is it God's choice, because it helps our salvation through teaching us patience and humility? Or does sin open a door to demonic possession? Or both?


Quote
I sort of disagree I've witnessed Orthodox exorcisms.   There are somewhat harsh words for the demon...
"Let God Arise, let his enemies be scattered, let those who hate him flee from before his face, as wax melts before a fire...."   (said, no beautifully sung like during Pascha etc.)

For the demon, yes, but not for the demoniac.
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« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2013, 11:03:42 PM »

Can demons see into the future and tell you your fortune?

hehe...

Well those who believe in Shamans etc., think so.

When I was a kid I used to be interested in that weirdo occult stuff--wanting to know my future, who I'll marry, what my job'll be, how/when I'll die etc...good thing I found Orthodoxy before I screwed up and did something that could throw my life away  Grin
In high school I learned about some Indian war (I think it was Wounded Knee) which was started because some Indian chief had a vision that he saw the "messiah" who told him to dance a certain dance so that if he got everyone to do it, eventually it would bring about the resurrection of Native Americans and the burial of the White Men.  Interestingly enough, the White Men saw all of these Indians doing this strange dance out of nowhere and started shooting and ended up being a massacre.  Moral of the story, don't trust anything that does not come from God because it is always demonic.
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« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2013, 01:06:34 AM »

I've "traveled" around religions trying to find my place. And used to lead a dark path, Not an evil path, but a dark one. I became obsessed with knowledge of theology, the occult, and especially demonology. I took it to heart when Sun Tsu said that to truly defeat your enemy, you have to know and understand that enemy. And the truth that is out there is definitely findable. I feel that I have opened doors no person should ever open. I've gone very deep into the occult and the things I saw, i cannot make them go away no matter how much I pray. It actually led me (back) to God. I feel a very direct connection. "His will, my hands" sensation. I have gotten good at all different types of cleansing houses and exorcisms. I feel I do it as my way of repentance. and I feel I am on the path He wants me to be. (I also feel I have been led to learn Orthodoxy, and I think my true place is with orthodox teachings the more and more I learn about them) 

The point I'm getting at is demonic Possession is a very real thing. I have seen some terrible things (surprising for my age to be honest). but the main question was "How". I believe there are several avenues for it. a weakening of the mind. emotions like despair, depression, ect. invites things to your doorstep. but that falls under the unintended possessed. I have seen people wish for it, and sadly had received that wish. and it didn't require a crazy spell. demons just need an invite to take over.

We have free choice. we can choose to believe or not. allowing something into us to take over is a choice. but that doesn't mean God abandoned anyone. i think it does teach a humbleness to those victims.

I have spoken to a variety of demons inhabiting people. (there's little tricks to bring them forward for a direct conversation) and lo and behold! they are tricksters. They are full of half truths and manipulation. They love to watch you squirm, so surprisingly they will tell you alot of truth...it may be a little stretched, but with a good thought process one can figure out the core truths. They can't see the future per say, more that they look directly into your soul and tell you things to come on the path you are on. they know all of your sins, can read thoughts, languages, ect. they will throw truths at you to rattle your cage. and chip at your faith.

but that is a demon. a person being possessed will have a change in diet, experience pain towards certain metals or musical notes. know things that they shouldn't know. for example, they might tell you something about a childhood memory. Or mock you about a secret that you never let out before. all to shake you up. I've experienced thinking a question loudly in my head and had a verbal response from the other person.

scientifically, it is a remarkable thing to behold. spiritually, it is truly terrifying. nothing at all depicted in a movie. it is an impending doom sensation you receive. you feel your life in danger all the way to your core. and you have to allow God to flow through you to give you strength. 
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« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2013, 05:53:12 PM »

^^ I believe it is actually the opposite; evil does not need to focus on the unrepentant sinner as he is already on the path evil wants him to be on. Logically speaking, it follows that evil will focus on those who are moving towards God rather than away from him. Is that not the reason Saint Nektarios suffered from demonic attacks?

I do believe that the occult can open doors, as it were. A member of my family died soon after a very freaky experience with a ouija board, and we have never forgotten.
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« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2013, 06:03:30 PM »

Can demons see into the future and tell you your fortune?

I don't know
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« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2013, 06:13:49 PM »

Can demons see into the future and tell you your fortune?

I don't know

I've read no.  I think in The Arena.  The explanation is they know how humans operate better than we do.  They have a deeper perception into our thoughts etc and can better predict what is going to happen.
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« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2013, 06:52:40 PM »

From the Life of St. Anthony the Great, regarding demons that 'foretell' the future:

'Wherefore if they pretend to foretell the future, let no one give heed, for often they announce beforehand that the brethren are coming days after. And they do come. The demons, however, do this not from any care for the hearers, but to gain their trust, and that then at length, having got them in their power, they may destroy them. Whence we must give no heed to them, but ought rather to confute them when speaking, since we do not need them. For what wonder is it, if with more subtle bodies than men have, when they have seen them start on their journey, they surpass them in speed, and announce their coming? "  http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/vita-antony.asp


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« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2013, 07:48:26 PM »

^Does no one actually read my posts anymore?  Grin Tongue
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« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2013, 04:45:45 PM »

^Does no one actually read my posts anymore?  Grin Tongue

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« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2013, 05:19:40 PM »


Ha ha!  I did!

However, we humans learn by repetition....
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« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2013, 11:50:01 PM »

Does everyone in hear who has experienced or reads about the demoniac being exorcised in the NT confirm to you that these evil spiritual entities are created by a Creator, in our case God. Just want to see what everyone else thinks of these evil entities what comes to your mind about them to me it means there is a God who created the Physical World i.e: Us, Tree's, Sun, Moon and Planets, etc.. and also the same creator (God) also created the Spiritual World i.e Heaven, Angels.. etc  From my journey in Orthodoxy I have experienced the demons distracting me in church and it just confirms to me that they were also created by God, thus there is a God please note that I do not base my believe in God because of this, as I have always believed but it made me fear God in love for creating Us and the Angels even the ones that have gone bad.
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« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2013, 02:41:17 PM »

QUOTE FROM ASTERIKTOS:


Wherefore if they pretend to foretell the future, let no one give heed, for often they announce beforehand that the brethren are coming days after. And they do come. The demons, however, do this not from any care for the hearers, but to gain their trust, and that then at length, having got them in their power, they may destroy them.

Whence we must give no heed to them, but ought rather to confute them when speaking, since we do not need them. For what wonder is it, if with more subtle bodies than men have , when they have seen them start on their journey, they surpass them in speed, and announce their coming? Just as a horseman getting a start of a man on foot announces the arrival of the latter beforehand, so in this there is no need for us to wonder at them.

For they know none of those things which are not yet in existence; but God only is He who knows all things before their birth. But these, like thieves, running off first with what they see, proclaim it: to how many already have they announced our business— that we are assembled together, and discuss measures against them, before any one of us could go and tell these things. This in good truth a fleet-footed boy could do, getting far ahead of one less swift.

But what I mean is this. If any one begins to walk from the Thebaid, or from any other district, before he begins to walk, they do not know whether he will walk. But when they have seen him walking they run on, and before he comes up report his approach. And so it falls out that after a few days the travellers arrive. But often the walkers turn back, and the demons prove false.

-- St. Athanasius, Life of St. Anthony, 31

maybe more people will read it with the paragraphs. i tried to make it bigger as well but could not.
you are quoting from one of my favourite books!
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(edit: removed the quote box to give it a paler background)
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« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2013, 04:20:44 PM »

Non-Orthodox posts were moved to the Religious Topics.
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« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2013, 04:28:47 PM »

I wasn't trying to offend anyone. I was posting a fun school of thought in response to a fun question. not my religious beliefs. Im interested in converting to orthodoxy. Things like "pagan, Heathen, Witch" are offensive terms when used wrong. but i am trying to not be "that" im trying to adopt orthodoxy into my life. i never said anything giving praise to anyone but God. It is hard completely turning my life inside out. That is why Im finding FAITH ISSUES with orthodoxy. And I want to fix it so I can be happy with God.

If I have ever offended you, then I'm sorry. I was just excited to be able to speak to men and women that could help answer questions, and guide me better into God's arms.

So again. I apologize for any offense. I've tried very hard to not offend anyone. I hope God blesses you.
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« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2013, 04:36:39 PM »

Orthodox Christians only are allowed to present their beliefs in this section. Intentions of non-Orthodox Christian users do not matter.

 For discussing non-Orthodox beliefs there are other sections of this forum, in particular - Religious Topics.

If you have more questions about forum rules, use the private message system. Discussing moderators' decisions in public is also against the rules of the board.
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« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2013, 05:08:50 PM »

"Possession" is a tricky topic because we often think of it as a type of 'indwelling.'  This is not really the case.  'Bodiless Powers' such as angels and demons are not material beings, so they cannot 'dwell' inside a person.  However, they can have access to a person and manifest in the material world when granted permission.

In Job, we see how God granted the devil access to Job's skin, causing blisters.  Demons are permitted such actions only with God's permission, and only for the perfecting of man (as in the case of Job).

While saints are the exception, the general rule is that demonic affliction is usually either invited directly through invocation of a spirit, or indirectly through sin.  As for direct invocation, it is possible for one person to invoke a demon upon another person, though one's susceptibility is usually connected to one's spiritual life and, again, God's will.



So here's just a general question - patristics would be helpful, if anyone knows of any:

How does one become possessed by a demon?

The Antiochian page about Insanity and Demonic Possession says very compassionate things about the possessed, including that the Saints even admired people who were possessed. But if they were admirable, how did they end up becoming possessed?

Quote
Chrysostom admires at least some of the possessed because “the demon makes men humble. … Great is the admiration it calls for, and many the praises, when struggling against such a spirit, they bear all thankfully …” (St. John Chrysostom, 1979a, p. 254).

The Orthodox prayers of exorcism are remarkably gentle towards the possessed person. The prayers are directed to God, or they sternly command the demons; there are no harsh words for the demoniac. In one place, they even refer to the possessed as the Theotokos’s “faithful servant” (St. Tikhon’s Monastery 1999, p. 17).
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« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2013, 02:00:35 AM »

Is it possible to see them when the physically appear ? What do they look like ? As per the icons we see in Church "Black" wingless creatures. Since they are bodiless creatures aka "spirit beings" are they able to completely manifest themselves into any materialistic object ? I.e a Humen or a Bird or a Ceramic Vase ?.
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« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2013, 02:26:21 AM »

Can demons see into the future and tell you your fortune?

hehe...

Well those who believe in Shamans etc., think so.

When I was a kid I used to be interested in that weirdo occult stuff--wanting to know my future, who I'll marry, what my job'll be, how/when I'll die etc...good thing I found Orthodoxy before I screwed up and did something that could throw my life away  Grin

With the exorcisms at Holy Baptism, that should help you.

I had a friend in college who played with a Ouija board.
She became engaged and then demonic attacks began.
She became suicidal for no reason and took an entire bottle of herbs.
She called me in desperation after she awoke.
Since she was feeling fine, I told her to call her priest immediately.
Her priest determined that she needed a prayer of exorcism.
Once prayers were said over her, she was fine,
but the priest warned her never to play with a Ouija board
or dabble with New Age or occult ever again.
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« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2013, 10:39:15 AM »

Demons do not 'materialize,' but can manifest themselves as just about anything.  From what I was taught and have heard from others, demons occasionally will try to manifest as humans, but they are unable to perfectly manifest as such because they cannot truly counterfeit the Image of God.  Often, there will be a problem with the eyes, hands, or feet.  However, that does not prevent some people for taking them as real.

I don't think a demon would need to disquise itself as a vase.  One must keep in mind that the demon is only going to manifest in a way that helps it with its goal: to create a relationship that leads one away from God.  These days, there are so many distractions to the spiritual life that demons don't have to try that hard... we distract ourselves.


Is it possible to see them when the physically appear ? What do they look like ? As per the icons we see in Church "Black" wingless creatures. Since they are bodiless creatures aka "spirit beings" are they able to completely manifest themselves into any materialistic object ? I.e a Humen or a Bird or a Ceramic Vase ?.
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« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2013, 11:04:25 AM »

One must keep in mind that the demon is only going to manifest in a way that helps it with its goal: to create a relationship that leads one away from God.  These days, there are so many distractions to the spiritual life that demons don't have to try that hard... we distract ourselves.

True statement.  We are so distracted these days, more than ever before in history.  TV, iPhones, iPads, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter....there's hardly any "silent" time....just you, your thoughts and God.

We seriously have to discipline ourselves to find quiet time....and not fiddle with some electronic device.
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« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2013, 11:16:14 AM »

One must keep in mind that the demon is only going to manifest in a way that helps it with its goal: to create a relationship that leads one away from God.  These days, there are so many distractions to the spiritual life that demons don't have to try that hard... we distract ourselves.

True statement.  We are so distracted these days, more than ever before in history.  TV, iPhones, iPads, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter....there's hardly any "silent" time....just you, your thoughts and God.

We seriously have to discipline ourselves to find quiet time....and not fiddle with some electronic device.


So very true! The electronics and communications industries are putting the demons out of business.
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« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2013, 05:06:23 AM »

Demons do not 'materialize,' but can manifest themselves as just about anything.  From what I was taught and have heard from others, demons occasionally will try to manifest as humans, but they are unable to perfectly manifest as such because they cannot truly counterfeit the Image of God.  Often, there will be a problem with the eyes, hands, or feet.  However, that does not prevent some people for taking them as real.

I don't think a demon would need to disquise itself as a vase.  One must keep in mind that the demon is only going to manifest in a way that helps it with its goal: to create a relationship that leads one away from God.  These days, there are so many distractions to the spiritual life that demons don't have to try that hard... we distract ourselves.


Is it possible to see them when the physically appear ? What do they look like ? As per the icons we see in Church "Black" wingless creatures. Since they are bodiless creatures aka "spirit beings" are they able to completely manifest themselves into any materialistic object ? I.e a Humen or a Bird or a Ceramic Vase ?.

Thanks for taking the time to reply, so undoubtedly they can manifest into anything and to anyone at any time to achieve there goal "distracting us away from God". Do Saints/Monks/Priests during Church Service see demons distracting people or see demonic manifestations appear before them but the Church goers do not see?, what I'm trying to say is that can you see a demon appear in any form at Church while other people in Church do not see it ?. 

Thanks in advance
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Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,094



« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2013, 12:24:19 PM »

Yes, there are examples of this from the 'Lives of the Saints.'  But, do remember, that apparitions are 'tools,' not really 'presences.'  A demon may manifest for his purposes, but God also make a demon manifest himself so that the person will be aware of the demon's activity.  It is hard to say, and best left to the 'experts'... the great ascetics who daily battle in open warfare with Satan.

This is why the monks who take final vows wear the 'Great Schema.'  It is covered with Scriptures, prayers, and symbols to fight the activities of demons.





Monks and nuns are in a constant battle.  Like I said, we have our minor temptations, but we 'civilians' (myself included) have plenty of our own distractions.  Those who give up the distractions of this world find themselves being distracted first by the flesh, then by the enemy.

It is a real war.

It is too bad that most of us graduate from seminary with no preparation for this battle, which is why so many priests here crash and burn.  I could be next, so I would appreciate your prayers.



Demons do not 'materialize,' but can manifest themselves as just about anything.  From what I was taught and have heard from others, demons occasionally will try to manifest as humans, but they are unable to perfectly manifest as such because they cannot truly counterfeit the Image of God.  Often, there will be a problem with the eyes, hands, or feet.  However, that does not prevent some people for taking them as real.

I don't think a demon would need to disquise itself as a vase.  One must keep in mind that the demon is only going to manifest in a way that helps it with its goal: to create a relationship that leads one away from God.  These days, there are so many distractions to the spiritual life that demons don't have to try that hard... we distract ourselves.


Is it possible to see them when the physically appear ? What do they look like ? As per the icons we see in Church "Black" wingless creatures. Since they are bodiless creatures aka "spirit beings" are they able to completely manifest themselves into any materialistic object ? I.e a Humen or a Bird or a Ceramic Vase ?.

Thanks for taking the time to reply, so undoubtedly they can manifest into anything and to anyone at any time to achieve there goal "distracting us away from God". Do Saints/Monks/Priests during Church Service see demons distracting people or see demonic manifestations appear before them but the Church goers do not see?, what I'm trying to say is that can you see a demon appear in any form at Church while other people in Church do not see it ?. 

Thanks in advance
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