Topic: Gay marriage could signal return to ‘centuries of persecution’, say RCC priests

[88Devin12]

88Devin12 teaching a Jew about "true" modern Judaism.

<popcorn>

If you're an Orthodox Christian, you have to agree that all of modern Judaism and Jews aren't God's chosen people and are not "Jews" or "Israel", those attributes belong to the Orthodox Church.

Also, even compared to Judaism of the time of Christ, yes, most of modern Judaism is fake and pretend.

You cannot be an Orthodox Christian and believe the Jews are still God's chosen people and are still Jews.

I sincerely hope that modern Judaism (the ones which are liberalizing) dies a terrible, and quick death. Same thing for all of "progressive" and liberal "Christianity".

Is this dogmatic attitude part of the fundamentalist Protestant baggage you're trying so hard to discard? I sure hope so.

No, as a Protestant I believed that the Jews are Gods chosen people and will be saved along with Christians, and that it is our duty to help Israel take over so they could destroy the Dome of the Rock and rebuild the Temple and usher in the end of the world when we and they will be united under Christ.

I'm glad I don't believe that anymore, I shed that baggage years ago.

There is only one true Israel, one inheritor of the covenants, the Orthodox Church. We are Israel, both Gentile and Jew, those Jews who didn't follow Christ are now apostates and abandoned their covenant with God.

This is what the Orthodox Church does teach about itself, it IS Israel.

Peter, why bring an unrelated subject to derail a thread further which is about homosexuality and gay marriage?

[Kerdy]

88Devin12 teaching a Jew about "true" modern Judaism.

<popcorn>

If you're an Orthodox Christian, you have to agree that all of modern Judaism and Jews aren't God's chosen people and are not "Jews" or "Israel", those attributes belong to the Orthodox Church.

Also, even compared to Judaism of the time of Christ, yes, most of modern Judaism is fake and pretend.

You cannot be an Orthodox Christian and believe the Jews are still God's chosen people and are still Jews.

I sincerely hope that modern Judaism (the ones which are liberalizing) dies a terrible, and quick death. Same thing for all of "progressive" and liberal "Christianity".

Is this dogmatic attitude part of the fundamentalist Protestant baggage you're trying so hard to discard? I sure hope so.

No, as a Protestant I believed that the Jews are Gods chosen people and will be saved along with Christians, and that it is our duty to help Israel take over so they could destroy the Dome of the Rock and rebuild the Temple and usher in the end of the world when we and they will be united under Christ.

I'm glad I don't believe that anymore, I shed that baggage years ago.

There is only one true Israel, one inheritor of the covenants, the Orthodox Church. We are Israel, both Gentile and Jew, those Jews who didn't follow Christ are now apostates and abandoned their covenant with God.

This is what the Orthodox Church does teach about itself, it IS Israel.

Peter, why bring an unrelated subject to derail a thread further which is about homosexuality and gay marriage?

As a Protestant, I never believed this.

[Kerdy]

Back on subject.  Does God condone and bless homosexual "marriages" as a sacrament?

[88Devin12]

Back on subject.  Does God condone and bless homosexual "marriages" as a sacrament?

Never

[Kerdy]

88Devin12 teaching a Jew about "true" modern Judaism.

<popcorn>

If you're an Orthodox Christian, you have to agree that all of modern Judaism and Jews aren't God's chosen people and are not "Jews" or "Israel", those attributes belong to the Orthodox Church.

Also, even compared to Judaism of the time of Christ, yes, most of modern Judaism is fake and pretend.

You cannot be an Orthodox Christian and believe the Jews are still God's chosen people and are still Jews.

I haven't written any of these. I only suppose Talilot is more knowledgeable than you about modern Judaism and its practices or teachings.

You mean throwing tomatoes and eggs at gay pride attendants?

They use firecrackers, smoke bombs and stones here.

Just speculating here, but maybe they shouldn’t make a spectacle of themselves and be “proud” in the same way the rest of the world is proud.  This does not suggest what people do in anger is ok, but if they didn’t prance up and down the public roadways, they wouldn’t make themselves a target for this sort of stuff.  I don’t know anyone else who holds pride parades.

[Kerdy]

Back on subject.  Does God condone and bless homosexual "marriages" as a sacrament?

Never

This sort of ends any additional discussion on that matter, doesn't it?

The next question is, does all of the recent developments over the last few decades in favor of public and social acceptance of homosexuality benefit, hinder or hurt the Church as a whole?  Keeping in mind the decline of church attendance, the increased and emboldened attacks on Christianity, the war being waged on the Christmas holiday, mockery of Christians and services, attacks on church buildings, etc.  Also keeping in mind, the same basic arguments being made are the same arguments which were made for abortion.

[88Devin12]

88Devin12 teaching a Jew about "true" modern Judaism.

<popcorn>

If you're an Orthodox Christian, you have to agree that all of modern Judaism and Jews aren't God's chosen people and are not "Jews" or "Israel", those attributes belong to the Orthodox Church.

Also, even compared to Judaism of the time of Christ, yes, most of modern Judaism is fake and pretend.

You cannot be an Orthodox Christian and believe the Jews are still God's chosen people and are still Jews.

I sincerely hope that modern Judaism (the ones which are liberalizing) dies a terrible, and quick death. Same thing for all of "progressive" and liberal "Christianity".

Is this dogmatic attitude part of the fundamentalist Protestant baggage you're trying so hard to discard? I sure hope so.

No, as a Protestant I believed that the Jews are Gods chosen people and will be saved along with Christians, and that it is our duty to help Israel take over so they could destroy the Dome of the Rock and rebuild the Temple and usher in the end of the world when we and they will be united under Christ.

I'm glad I don't believe that anymore, I shed that baggage years ago.

There is only one true Israel, one inheritor of the covenants, the Orthodox Church. We are Israel, both Gentile and Jew, those Jews who didn't follow Christ are now apostates and abandoned their covenant with God.

This is what the Orthodox Church does teach about itself, it IS Israel.

Peter, why bring an unrelated subject to derail a thread further which is about homosexuality and gay marriage?

As a Protestant, I never believed this.

Apparently neither did my parents, I got most of it from TBN, and all sorts of Fundamentalist and Evangelical literature.

I was a full-blown zealous right-wing Protestant Fundamentalist, Pre-Millenialist, Post-Tribulationist, Young Earth Creationist, Adult Baptismist, Anti-Intellectualist, Judgemental Homophobe with strong tendencies towards Messianic Judaism.

Then I realized that wasn't the ancient faith and got introduced to Orthodoxy and I've been shedding that nonsense ever since then. In many ways, by becoming Orthodox, my world and views got turned upside down and I had to totally relearn how to be a Christian and how Orthodox Christians think and what we believe.

[Kerdy]

Back on subject.  Does God condone and bless homosexual "marriages" as a sacrament?

Never

Also, when the Church says no, it is labeled a hate group and retaliated against in full force as being a bunch of Draconian homophobes.  Is this not considered persecution?

[88Devin12]

Back on subject.  Does God condone and bless homosexual "marriages" as a sacrament?

Never

Also, when the Church says no, it is labeled a hate group and retaliated against in full force as being a bunch of Draconian homophobes.  Is this not considered persecution?

Such is life as a Christian.

I'm against proselytizing and forcing our church on anyone. But I'm also opposed to gay marriage since its obvious there is a bigger agenda at play.

Just because I and others want to see people shut up and quit harassing gays about being sinful doesnt mean we aren't opposed to gay marriage.

It's like abortion, do we go to the mothers and tell them they are sinful little child murderers? No, but we do oppose abortion.

[Kerdy]

Apparently neither did my parents, I got most of it from TBN, and all sorts of Fundamentalist and Evangelical literature.

I was a full-blown zealous right-wing Protestant Fundamentalist, Pre-Millenialist, Post-Tribulationist, Young Earth Creationist, Adult Baptismist, Anti-Intellectualist, Judgemental Homophobe with strong tendencies towards Messianic Judaism.

Then I realized that wasn't the ancient faith and got introduced to Orthodoxy and I've been shedding that nonsense ever since then. In many ways, by becoming Orthodox, my world and views got turned upside down and I had to totally relearn how to be a Christian and how Orthodox Christians think and what we believe.

You, or course, realize one can still be a right-winger, believe in Millennialism, believe in the Tribulation, be a young earth creationist and still be Orthodox, right?  As far as I know, none of these things are considered to be heretical.

[LBK]

Apparently neither did my parents, I got most of it from TBN, and all sorts of Fundamentalist and Evangelical literature.

I was a full-blown zealous right-wing Protestant Fundamentalist, Pre-Millenialist, Post-Tribulationist, Young Earth Creationist, Adult Baptismist, Anti-Intellectualist, Judgemental Homophobe with strong tendencies towards Messianic Judaism.

Then I realized that wasn't the ancient faith and got introduced to Orthodoxy and I've been shedding that nonsense ever since then. In many ways, by becoming Orthodox, my world and views got turned upside down and I had to totally relearn how to be a Christian and how Orthodox Christians think and what we believe.

You, or course, realize one can still be a right-winger, believe in Millennialism, believe in the Tribulation, be a young earth creationist and still be Orthodox, right?  As far as I know, none of these things are considered to be heretical.

Millennialism is indeed a declared heresy for the Orthodox. It's better known as Chiliasm.

[Kerdy]

Back on subject.  Does God condone and bless homosexual "marriages" as a sacrament?

Never

Also, when the Church says no, it is labeled a hate group and retaliated against in full force as being a bunch of Draconian homophobes.  Is this not considered persecution?

Such is life as a Christian.

I'm against proselytizing and forcing our church on anyone. But I'm also opposed to gay marriage since its obvious there is a bigger agenda at play.

Just because I and others want to see people shut up and quit harassing gays about being sinful doesnt mean we aren't opposed to gay marriage.

It's like abortion, do we go to the mothers and tell them they are sinful little child murderers? No, but we do oppose abortion.

I think we most likely agree more than disagree.  The difference is our approach.  When people see or hear my approach, they seem to always believe it is done in the most cruel and obstinate way. 

I have a Catholic friend who is extremely active in the Pro-Life movement.  He regularly attends gatherings at abortion mills, but they do so very quietly and peacefully.  They as people if they would like literature, if not they leave them alone.  They pray, sometimes all night, but they never get rude or confrontational and at the same time, there is no question where they stand on abortion.

[mike]

Back on subject.  Does God condone and bless homosexual "marriages" as a sacrament?

Never

Also, when the Church says no, it is labeled a hate group and retaliated against in full force as being a bunch of Draconian homophobes.  Is this not considered persecution?

Such is life as a Christian.

I'm against proselytizing and forcing our church on anyone. But I'm also opposed to gay marriage since its obvious there is a bigger agenda at play.

Just because I and others want to see people shut up and quit harassing gays about being sinful doesnt mean we aren't opposed to gay marriage.

It's like abortion, do we go to the mothers and tell them they are sinful little child murderers? No, but we do oppose abortion.

I'm against making correlation between state marriage and Church mystery.

[Kerdy]

Apparently neither did my parents, I got most of it from TBN, and all sorts of Fundamentalist and Evangelical literature.

I was a full-blown zealous right-wing Protestant Fundamentalist, Pre-Millenialist, Post-Tribulationist, Young Earth Creationist, Adult Baptismist, Anti-Intellectualist, Judgemental Homophobe with strong tendencies towards Messianic Judaism.

Then I realized that wasn't the ancient faith and got introduced to Orthodoxy and I've been shedding that nonsense ever since then. In many ways, by becoming Orthodox, my world and views got turned upside down and I had to totally relearn how to be a Christian and how Orthodox Christians think and what we believe.

You, or course, realize one can still be a right-winger, believe in Millennialism, believe in the Tribulation, be a young earth creationist and still be Orthodox, right?  As far as I know, none of these things are considered to be heretical.

Millennialism is indeed a declared heresy for the Orthodox. It's better known as Chiliasm.

Odd, I looked it up before I posted to be sure and it didn't say this.  What it did say was, "The view of the Orthodox Church can best be described as "amillenialist"; that is, holding to the teaching that the thousand years mentioned in the Apocalypse refers to the current age of the Church."  So I guess it depends on what you place prior to Mellennialism (Post, Pre, A).

[Kerdy]

Back on subject.  Does God condone and bless homosexual "marriages" as a sacrament?

Never

Also, when the Church says no, it is labeled a hate group and retaliated against in full force as being a bunch of Draconian homophobes.  Is this not considered persecution?

Such is life as a Christian.

I'm against proselytizing and forcing our church on anyone. But I'm also opposed to gay marriage since its obvious there is a bigger agenda at play.

Just because I and others want to see people shut up and quit harassing gays about being sinful doesnt mean we aren't opposed to gay marriage.

It's like abortion, do we go to the mothers and tell them they are sinful little child murderers? No, but we do oppose abortion.

I'm against making correlation between state marriage and Church mystery.

Where do you think it originated?  The state of from God?

[mike]

Back on subject.  Does God condone and bless homosexual "marriages" as a sacrament?

Never

Also, when the Church says no, it is labeled a hate group and retaliated against in full force as being a bunch of Draconian homophobes.  Is this not considered persecution?

Such is life as a Christian.

I'm against proselytizing and forcing our church on anyone. But I'm also opposed to gay marriage since its obvious there is a bigger agenda at play.

Just because I and others want to see people shut up and quit harassing gays about being sinful doesnt mean we aren't opposed to gay marriage.

It's like abortion, do we go to the mothers and tell them they are sinful little child murderers? No, but we do oppose abortion.

I'm against making correlation between state marriage and Church mystery.

Where do you think it originated?  The state of from God?

Wasn't that one of the emperors who imposed on Church conducting state marriages (and ie. interfaith marriages originated then)?

And so what?

[Kerdy]

Back on subject.  Does God condone and bless homosexual "marriages" as a sacrament?

Never

Also, when the Church says no, it is labeled a hate group and retaliated against in full force as being a bunch of Draconian homophobes.  Is this not considered persecution?

Such is life as a Christian.

I'm against proselytizing and forcing our church on anyone. But I'm also opposed to gay marriage since its obvious there is a bigger agenda at play.

Just because I and others want to see people shut up and quit harassing gays about being sinful doesnt mean we aren't opposed to gay marriage.

It's like abortion, do we go to the mothers and tell them they are sinful little child murderers? No, but we do oppose abortion.

I'm against making correlation between state marriage and Church mystery.

Where do you think it originated?  The state of from God?

Wasn't that one of the emperors who imposed on Church conducting state marriages (and ie. interfaith marriages originated then)?

And so what?

Sounds like an example of persecution to me.

So what?  Nothing I suppose, except for the whole God thing.

[88Devin12]

Apparently neither did my parents, I got most of it from TBN, and all sorts of Fundamentalist and Evangelical literature.

I was a full-blown zealous right-wing Protestant Fundamentalist, Pre-Millenialist, Post-Tribulationist, Young Earth Creationist, Adult Baptismist, Anti-Intellectualist, Judgemental Homophobe with strong tendencies towards Messianic Judaism.

Then I realized that wasn't the ancient faith and got introduced to Orthodoxy and I've been shedding that nonsense ever since then. In many ways, by becoming Orthodox, my world and views got turned upside down and I had to totally relearn how to be a Christian and how Orthodox Christians think and what we believe.

You, or course, realize one can still be a right-winger, believe in Millennialism, believe in the Tribulation, be a young earth creationist and still be Orthodox, right?  As far as I know, none of these things are considered to be heretical.

Millenialism is a heresy, there isn't a 1000 year reign of Christ, rather his reign is eternal.

 and you shouldn't believe in the Tribulation except as taught by Orthodox. We are living in the tribulation and there won't be any rapture.

[stavros_388]

88Devin12 teaching a Jew about "true" modern Judaism.

<popcorn>

If you're an Orthodox Christian, you have to agree that all of modern Judaism and Jews aren't God's chosen people and are not "Jews" or "Israel", those attributes belong to the Orthodox Church.

Also, even compared to Judaism of the time of Christ, yes, most of modern Judaism is fake and pretend.

You cannot be an Orthodox Christian and believe the Jews are still God's chosen people and are still Jews.

I haven't written any of these. I only suppose Talilot is more knowledgeable than you about modern Judaism and its practices or teachings.

You mean throwing tomatoes and eggs at gay pride attendants?

They use firecrackers, smoke bombs and stones here.

Just speculating here, but maybe they shouldn’t make a spectacle of themselves and be “proud” in the same way the rest of the world is proud.  This does not suggest what people do in anger is ok, but if they didn’t prance up and down the public roadways, they wouldn’t make themselves a target for this sort of stuff.  I don’t know anyone else who holds pride parades.

I will speculate that they probably wouldn't be proudly marching in the first place if homosexuals hadn't been oppressed, shunned, bullied, reviled, correctively raped, and/or stoned to death throughout history.

Racial and gender equality movements also involved displays of public pride following years of oppression and injustice. Such is progress.

[Shanghaiski]

However, this discussion is about "centuries of persecution" returning because of governments allowing homosexual marriage and thus preventing Christians from reading passages from St. Paul without penalties.

We already are experiencing this in California.

If we do not speak up, we will lose our freedom of religion.
However, if we do speak up, it is already too late.

So, you have no point.

[Shanghaiski]

I do find it interesting who is involved with the dissenting opinions here, those defending the method of proselytism and confrontation are either people who have recently come from a Protestant background or who have left for a more fundamentalist/extreme conservative Orthodox group. This is simply a curious observation and not an insult.

Kerdy, I'll be honest, I pray to God the same doesn't happen to you that's happened to other like-minded Orthodox folk, who often end up jumping ship to a break off sect.

One such man I know from Greece did just this. He confessed his sins to a Priest who told him to come take communion and they'll deal with it. He decided his sins were too great and he shouldn't be allowed to commune immediately and so he ended up joining a breakoff group in Greece. This particular group was so extreme and zealous in their sort of fundamentalism that they actually beat the local Bishop with a belt for being an "ecumenist". Needless to say, not all the groups are like that, but still, I hope you don't end up jumping ship to a breakoff sect.

Now you are being completely insane in your misassessment of people.

[Shanghaiski]

88Devin12 teaching a Jew about "true" modern Judaism.

<popcorn>

If you're an Orthodox Christian, you have to agree that all of modern Judaism and Jews aren't God's chosen people and are not "Jews" or "Israel", those attributes belong to the Orthodox Church.

Also, even compared to Judaism of the time of Christ, yes, most of modern Judaism is fake and pretend.

You cannot be an Orthodox Christian and believe the Jews are still God's chosen people and are still Jews.

I sincerely hope that modern Judaism (the ones which are liberalizing) dies a terrible, and quick death. Same thing for all of "progressive" and liberal "Christianity".

Is this dogmatic attitude part of the fundamentalist Protestant baggage you're trying so hard to discard? I sure hope so.

No, as a Protestant I believed that the Jews are Gods chosen people and will be saved along with Christians, and that it is our duty to help Israel take over so they could destroy the Dome of the Rock and rebuild the Temple and usher in the end of the world when we and they will be united under Christ.

I'm glad I don't believe that anymore, I shed that baggage years ago.

There is only one true Israel, one inheritor of the covenants, the Orthodox Church. We are Israel, both Gentile and Jew, those Jews who didn't follow Christ are now apostates and abandoned their covenant with God.

This is what the Orthodox Church does teach about itself, it IS Israel.

Peter, why bring an unrelated subject to derail a thread further which is about homosexuality and gay marriage?

Because you have made yourself, together with your misassessments of individuals, a part of this conversation.

[Shanghaiski]

88Devin12 teaching a Jew about "true" modern Judaism.

<popcorn>

If you're an Orthodox Christian, you have to agree that all of modern Judaism and Jews aren't God's chosen people and are not "Jews" or "Israel", those attributes belong to the Orthodox Church.

Also, even compared to Judaism of the time of Christ, yes, most of modern Judaism is fake and pretend.

You cannot be an Orthodox Christian and believe the Jews are still God's chosen people and are still Jews.

I haven't written any of these. I only suppose Talilot is more knowledgeable than you about modern Judaism and its practices or teachings.

You mean throwing tomatoes and eggs at gay pride attendants?

They use firecrackers, smoke bombs and stones here.

Just speculating here, but maybe they shouldn’t make a spectacle of themselves and be “proud” in the same way the rest of the world is proud.  This does not suggest what people do in anger is ok, but if they didn’t prance up and down the public roadways, they wouldn’t make themselves a target for this sort of stuff.  I don’t know anyone else who holds pride parades.

Neonazis do.

[Shanghaiski]

88Devin12 teaching a Jew about "true" modern Judaism.

<popcorn>

If you're an Orthodox Christian, you have to agree that all of modern Judaism and Jews aren't God's chosen people and are not "Jews" or "Israel", those attributes belong to the Orthodox Church.

Also, even compared to Judaism of the time of Christ, yes, most of modern Judaism is fake and pretend.

You cannot be an Orthodox Christian and believe the Jews are still God's chosen people and are still Jews.

I sincerely hope that modern Judaism (the ones which are liberalizing) dies a terrible, and quick death. Same thing for all of "progressive" and liberal "Christianity".

Is this dogmatic attitude part of the fundamentalist Protestant baggage you're trying so hard to discard? I sure hope so.

No, as a Protestant I believed that the Jews are Gods chosen people and will be saved along with Christians, and that it is our duty to help Israel take over so they could destroy the Dome of the Rock and rebuild the Temple and usher in the end of the world when we and they will be united under Christ.

I'm glad I don't believe that anymore, I shed that baggage years ago.

There is only one true Israel, one inheritor of the covenants, the Orthodox Church. We are Israel, both Gentile and Jew, those Jews who didn't follow Christ are now apostates and abandoned their covenant with God.

This is what the Orthodox Church does teach about itself, it IS Israel.

Peter, why bring an unrelated subject to derail a thread further which is about homosexuality and gay marriage?

As a Protestant, I never believed this.

Apparently neither did my parents, I got most of it from TBN, and all sorts of Fundamentalist and Evangelical literature.

I was a full-blown zealous right-wing Protestant Fundamentalist, Pre-Millenialist, Post-Tribulationist, Young Earth Creationist, Adult Baptismist, Anti-Intellectualist, Judgemental Homophobe with strong tendencies towards Messianic Judaism.

Then I realized that wasn't the ancient faith and got introduced to Orthodoxy and I've been shedding that nonsense ever since then. In many ways, by becoming Orthodox, my world and views got turned upside down and I had to totally relearn how to be a Christian and how Orthodox Christians think and what we believe.

And that is your personal experience, not necessarily the experience of those who oppose your arguments.

[Hiwot]

My opinion is that the official discourse of the church -insofar as it can be called official- with regards to homosexuality and a few other things is really left behind . Heck, in Romania I recall,  around the year 2000 or so many a religious organizations and clergy were on the streets protesting the de-criminalization of homosexual sex in a quite hysterical tone. IIRC even the patriarchate issued some encouragement to that. Moments like these are revealing. You see, behind the whatever theological and moral reasons are put in front, the real animating sentiment of this proudly "uncompromising attitude' is just some banal prejudices and the yuck factor.  Some would say that's somehow nature. I know, I used to suffer from the yuck factor too. But I grew up I reckon.
 It's like you know "scientific creationism" vs scientific approaches. So talking about the position of the church it's like beating a dead horse, mostly. Who wants to change it will have to patiently work from the inside or else if it affects them personally either heroically submit to all the rules or find a modus vivendi where they'll just do whatever they think it's right without causing a ruckus; and there are sympathetic clergy that will do what they can to help you. But things will have to be done in a low-key "pastoral" way.
Debates like these, AFIK are largely absent in religious circles in Orthodox countries, because the people are more uniformly homophobic if you push them, although. otherwise, homosexuality isn't really on their radar. But here in America, since the society is more evenly split on it, even religious people debate it. When that's gonna reach the orthodox ur-land you'll have these debates there too. And only then is realistic to hope that something will officially change.

This.  we need a two thumbs up icon in here

[Romaios]

Heck, in Romania I recall,  around the year 2000 or so many a religious organizations and clergy were on the streets protesting the de-criminalization of homosexual sex in a quite hysterical tone. IIRC even the patriarchate issued some encouragement to that.

Hmm, like most Romanians, I don't think I was paying much attention to the subject back then, but somehow I have to doubt the accuracy of your recollections (again).

Moments like these are revealing. You see, behind the whatever theological and moral reasons are put in front, the real animating sentiment of this proudly "uncompromising attitude' is just some banal prejudices and the yuck factor.  Some would say that's somehow nature. I know, I used to suffer from the yuck factor too. But I grew up I reckon.

Now, there we do have common memories - I remember when, about 5 years ago, in Vienna we saw "Franz Joseph" and his male partner reunited at the train station and then a guy passionately kissing his dog in some park and we were both thinking it was Lala Land we stepped into. You "grew up" because you moved there - I was "left behind". I don't know who's more fortunate.

Debates like these, AFIK are largely absent in religious circles in Orthodox countries, because the people are more uniformly homophobic if you push them, although. otherwise, homosexuality isn't really on their radar. But here in America, since the society is more evenly split on it, even religious people debate it. When that's gonna reach the orthodox ur-land you'll have these debates there too. And only then is realistic to hope that something will officially change.

There's some people (ACCEPT & Co.) who desperately try to bring the issue of homosexuality on our radar (schools, media, etc.). So are the many foreigners who come to march at the pride parades in Bucharest. They'll soon go to Mount Athos to campaign there for the rights of the gay monastic minority, as they do at the Vatican or in Jerusalem (the pilgrimage of the LGBT community from Tel Aviv).     

[augustin717]

Hmm, like most Romanians, I don't think I was paying much attention to the subject back then, but somehow I have to doubt the accuracy of your recollections (again).
*********

First time with archm. Efrem you were wrong. I was wrong about Noica's son.
The things referenced above happened around that time when the infamous article 200 was about to be struck down from the Penal Code as a requirement to join the EU. It was on TV, the press. I don't presume to know the things you were paying attention back then.
In the nineties there were cases of people imprisoned for having had sex with persons of the same sex. If you don't trust my recollections, you can always check.
************
Now, there we do have common memories - I remember when, about 5 years ago, in Vienna we saw "Franz Joseph" and his male partner reunited at the train station and then a guy passionately kissing his dog in some park and we were both thinking it was Lala Land we stepped into. You "grew up" because you moved there - I was "left behind". I don't know who's more fortunate.
******

That was 2005, August. Anyways after an initial shock or whatever, I moved on. I do not understand  this "You "grew up" because you moved there - I was "left behind". I don't know who's more fortunate."
********
There's some people (ACCEPT & Co.) who desperately try to bring the issue of homosexuality on our radar (schools, media, etc.). So are the many foreigners who come to march at the pride parades in Bucharest. They'll soon go to Mount Athos to campaign there for the rights of the gay monastic minority, as they do at the Vatican or in Jerusalem (the pilgrimage of the LGBT community from Tel Aviv).  
***********  

Well, these are somehow interesting scenarios (the Athos/Vatican one especially). As for Jerusalem there are enough gay locals there so no need to import them from Tel Aviv.

[Hiwot]

Romaios, with all due respect, the general point being made you have chosen to either ignore or I don't know what. the main point in that thoughtful and candid post was to say it is when we create the opportunity to responsibly discuss this issue with due pastoral and civic concern to those who are affected directly or indirectly by it that we Christians can positively convey  and stand by our principles. I do not see how ignoring the subject will suddenly make it go away, or how when it does come to the public fora and the reaction is violence of various sorts, from words to actions, I do not know anyone who is sane and understands justice and fairness, be they christian or pagan can say that engaging the topic responsibly is the wrong thing to do. from a christian perspective , how is it that we can not sit down in peace and talk with our kids and friends and neighbors regarding this subject without lashing out in rage and violence. Homosexuality is not a modern issue despite what many would like to tell themselves. the movement for the civil rights of homosexuals that is like many civic issues had bid its time to seek equal treatment under the civil law. the modern era has its flaws yet for most of us it has made living in this world far more easier than earlier eras when it comes to the respect of human rights. so calling it a modern issue( as if this word is the silver bullet to win the argument) will not change the fact that it is a reality that must be addressed regardless. the first step is to look at ourselves and examine our understanding of the issue, our cultural and religious reservations on the issue, doing that allows to communicate with one another without rancor and malice. so at the end of the day it is up to all of us to decide how exactly we will deal with the issue. denial, avoidance, violently silencing those who would raise it etc.. I wonder if that is truly the way to stand by our principles we so proclaim to be right and just and true.

[augustin717]

Romaios, with all due respect, the general point being made you have chosen to either ignore or I don't know what. the main point in that thoughtful and candid post was to say it is when we create the opportunity to responsibly discuss this issue with due pastoral and civic concern to those who are affected directly or indirectly by it that we Christians can positively convey  and stand by our principles. I do not see how ignoring the subject will suddenly make it go away, or how when it does come to the public fora and the reaction is violence of various sorts, from words to actions, I do not know anyone who is sane and understands justice and fairness, be they christian or pagan can say that engaging the topic responsibly is the wrong thing to do. from a christian perspective , how is it that we can not sit down in peace and talk with our kids and friends and neighbors regarding this subject without lashing out in rage and violence. Homosexuality is not a modern issue despite what many would like to tell themselves. the movement for the civil rights of homosexuals that is like many civic issues had bid its time to seek equal treatment under the civil law. the modern era has its flaws yet for most of us it has made living in this world far more easier than earlier eras when it comes to the respect of human rights. so calling it a modern issue( as if this word is the silver bullet to win the argument) will not change the fact that it is a reality that must be addressed regardless. the first step is to look at ourselves and examine our understanding of the issue, our cultural and religious reservations on the issue, doing that allows to communicate with one another without rancor and malice. so at the end of the day it is up to all of us to decide how exactly we will deal with the issue. denial, avoidance, violently silencing those who would raise it etc.. I wonder if that is truly the way to stand by our principles we so proclaim to be right and just and true.

Now I do follow the Romanian press and almost every single scandal that involves a male monk (or bishop, ar archimandrite ettc etc) is of a homosexual nature. It's not like that's random. One should also read Jacques Lacariere's account of his trips through Greece and Athos in the fifties ("The Greek Summer"-"L'ete grec"); he has a few anecdotes there too. My theory is that monastic life always attracted people that were not sexually attracted to women to some extent. It was an outlet. And nothing wrong with that. An islet of humanity, oftentimes within a sea of cruelty.
 But it also attracted or maybe that's not the right word, as they were mostly sent off there by their families, lots of surplus children for whom there was no place within the rural economy of the time. But now, that has largely disappeared ( I mean this supply of "surplus" sons and daughters and the rural economy) and so the percentage of SSA people most likely increased. Not saying that they are a majority but in any case a large component. That should pose a challenge in the future . Plus the further liberalization of  Orthodox countries.

[orthonorm]

My opinion is that the official discourse of the church -insofar as it can be called official- with regards to homosexuality and a few other things is really left behind . Heck, in Romania I recall,  around the year 2000 or so many a religious organizations and clergy were on the streets protesting the de-criminalization of homosexual sex in a quite hysterical tone. IIRC even the patriarchate issued some encouragement to that. Moments like these are revealing. You see, behind the whatever theological and moral reasons are put in front, the real animating sentiment of this proudly "uncompromising attitude' is just some banal prejudices and the yuck factor.  Some would say that's somehow nature. I know, I used to suffer from the yuck factor too. But I grew up I reckon.
 It's like you know "scientific creationism" vs scientific approaches. So talking about the position of the church it's like beating a dead horse, mostly. Who wants to change it will have to patiently work from the inside or else if it affects them personally either heroically submit to all the rules or find a modus vivendi where they'll just do whatever they think it's right without causing a ruckus; and there are sympathetic clergy that will do what they can to help you. But things will have to be done in a low-key "pastoral" way.
Debates like these, AFIK are largely absent in religious circles in Orthodox countries, because the people are more uniformly homophobic if you push them, although. otherwise, homosexuality isn't really on their radar. But here in America, since the society is more evenly split on it, even religious people debate it. When that's gonna reach the orthodox ur-land you'll have these debates there too. And only then is realistic to hope that something will officially change.

Great post augustin.

[orthonorm]

They'll soon go to Mount Athos to campaign there for the rights of the gay monastic minority

Or they can stop as a point of interest on gay cruises, which from what I understand, already happens.

A "bi" dude I knew asked if I was religious, I told him "Orthodox".

He launched into a whole speech about how wonderful it is, its history, etc. First person I ever met who knew much about it around here who wasn't Orthodox. He knew more than most. Enormous fan of Metropolitan Anthony of Sourozh. He gave me tons of links of videos, etc. that I "just had to watch".

He's been to Mt. Athos.

So have other sexed men. None Orthodox as far as he knew.

[Romaios]

First time with archm. Efrem you were wrong. I was wrong about Noica's son.

Ok, let's leave it at that - even though I wouldn't say that the purpose of Archim. Ephrem's talk back then was to 'slander the West'. It was just an answer to a couple of questions that revealed what he thought on the matter of post-schism Western Saints being worshiped by the Orthodox and his curious view on Pope JP2's visit to America. Obiter dicta.  
  

The things referenced above happened around that time when the infamous article 200 was about to be struck down from the Penal Code as a requirement to join the EU. It was on TV, the press. I don't presume to know the things you were paying attention back then.

In the nineties there were cases of people imprisoned for having had sex with persons of the same sex. If you don't trust my recollections, you can always check.

In Romania homosexuality was and, to a great extent, still is a non-issue. It passingly became one because of the European integration. That law existed, like it did everywhere in Eastern Europe since the days of Communism - it was seldom if ever enforced. We've done away with it and that should have been enough IMHO.
 

I do not understand  this "You "grew up" because you moved there - I was "left behind". I don't know who's more fortunate."

It's just a matter of being influenced by the majority's stream of thought. No personal credit to be taken.  

Well, these are somehow interesting scenarios (the Athos/Vatican one especially). As for Jerusalem there are enough gay locals there so no need to import them from Tel Aviv.

Hasn't the Vatican been a favourite target of all sorts of militants? Femdom, LGBT rights and so on? They're not satisfied with Catholic doctrine on some issues and feel like pressuring the Pope into changing his mind or something.

As for Jerusalem, I'm not sure that its actual gay inhabitants would make up for 10% of a pride parade. The Israeli LGBT capital is Tel Aviv, not the Holy City.

I think what bothers most Christians in traditional Orthodox countries is how these guys try to make their agenda an issue in places where it's traditionally never been one. The LGBT gospel is being preached to us by missionaries from abroad, like Mormonism, Baptism or Krishnaism.    

[augustin717]

I think what bothers most Christians in traditional Orthodox countries is how these guys try to make their agenda an issue in places where it's traditionally never been one.

Well, it only started to be an "issue" , I mean a public one, since the sixties, in the West too. So the time gap isn't all that great. What's different is the greater percentage of rural population in Romania or people of rural extraction (like we are too). So once that's gonna change attitudes will follow suite.

The LGBT gospel is being preached to us by missionaries from abroad, like Mormonism, Baptism or Krishnaism.   

   That's not nearly as clean cut but anyways, so was the abolition of serfdom or the ending of Gypsy chattel  slavery. These didn't come out of the Euchologion, unfortunately, but were Enlightement ideas.

[Hiwot]

Romaios, with all due respect, the general point being made you have chosen to either ignore or I don't know what. the main point in that thoughtful and candid post was to say it is when we create the opportunity to responsibly discuss this issue with due pastoral and civic concern to those who are affected directly or indirectly by it that we Christians can positively convey  and stand by our principles. I do not see how ignoring the subject will suddenly make it go away, or how when it does come to the public fora and the reaction is violence of various sorts, from words to actions, I do not know anyone who is sane and understands justice and fairness, be they christian or pagan can say that engaging the topic responsibly is the wrong thing to do. from a christian perspective , how is it that we can not sit down in peace and talk with our kids and friends and neighbors regarding this subject without lashing out in rage and violence. Homosexuality is not a modern issue despite what many would like to tell themselves. the movement for the civil rights of homosexuals that is like many civic issues had bid its time to seek equal treatment under the civil law. the modern era has its flaws yet for most of us it has made living in this world far more easier than earlier eras when it comes to the respect of human rights. so calling it a modern issue( as if this word is the silver bullet to win the argument) will not change the fact that it is a reality that must be addressed regardless. the first step is to look at ourselves and examine our understanding of the issue, our cultural and religious reservations on the issue, doing that allows to communicate with one another without rancor and malice. so at the end of the day it is up to all of us to decide how exactly we will deal with the issue. denial, avoidance, violently silencing those who would raise it etc.. I wonder if that is truly the way to stand by our principles we so proclaim to be right and just and true.

Now I do follow the Romanian press and almost every single scandal that involves a male monk (or bishop, ar archimandrite ettc etc) is of a homosexual nature. It's not like that's random. One should also read Jacques Lacariere's account of his trips through Greece and Athos in the fifties ("The Greek Summer"-"L'ete grec"); he has a few anecdotes there too. My theory is that monastic life always attracted people that were not sexually attracted to women to some extent. It was an outlet. And nothing wrong with that. An islet of humanity, oftentimes within a sea of cruelty.
 But it also attracted or maybe that's not the right word, as they were mostly sent off there by their families, lots of surplus children for whom there was no place within the rural economy of the time. But now, that has largely disappeared ( I mean this supply of "surplus" sons and daughters and the rural economy) and so the percentage of SSA people most likely increased. Not saying that they are a majority but in any case a large component. That should pose a challenge in the future . Plus the further liberalization of  Orthodox countries.

Augustin, I understand the points you are making, I am also aware of the elements you speak of ,only too well. it is not a romanian issue alone. it has as you know the inherent complexities of economic, pshychological, cultural factors that has found its mix in the religious one . a lot shall remain unsaid over here for the sake of others. but I want you to know I totally get what you are saying.

[ialmisry]

But I grew up I reckon.

LOL.  The very definition of the sophmore.

[Romaios]

Now I do follow the Romanian press and almost every single scandal that involves a male monk (or bishop, ar archimandrite ettc etc) is of a homosexual nature. It's not like that's random.

We have about 11.000 priests in Romania and I don't know how many monks. The press feasts on any bit of scandal that involves the Church. Even if all they write in the papers was actually true (I'd trust you to know better), it still would not make it an issue.  

One should also read Jacques Lacariere's account of his trips through Greece and Athos in the fifties ("The Greek Summer"-"L'ete grec"); he has a few anecdotes there too. My theory is that monastic life always attracted people that were not sexually attracted to women to some extent. It was an outlet. And nothing wrong with that. An islet of humanity, oftentimes within a sea of cruelty.

Homosexuality is taken into account and dealt with by monastic rules of all sorts. Hence the prohibition against beardless fellows/children being accepted around monasteries, younger disciples as cell mates and so forth. The Church deals with it on its own terms. It doesn't need preachers to teach it what's acceptable and what is not.

[augustin717]

Hence the prohibition against beardless fellows/children being accepted around monasteries, younger disciples as cell mates and so forth. T

That overlooks the bear community, I'm afraid.

The Church deals with it on its own terms. It doesn't need preachers to teach it what's acceptable and what is not

Just expressing opinions, not really preaching.

[ialmisry]

I think what bothers most Christians in traditional Orthodox countries is how these guys try to make their agenda an issue in places where it's traditionally never been one.

Well, it only started to be an "issue" , I mean a public one, since the sixties, in the West too. So the time gap isn't all that great. What's different is the greater percentage of rural population in Romania or people of rural extraction (like we are too). So once that's gonna change attitudes will follow suite.

The LGBT gospel is being preached to us by missionaries from abroad, like Mormonism, Baptism or Krishnaism.   

   That's not nearly as clean cut but anyways, so was the abolition of serfdom or the ending of Gypsy chattel  slavery. These didn't come out of the Euchologion, unfortunately, but were Enlightement ideas.

Rather odd, given the role of the "Englightenment" in spreading and expanding chattel slavery.  It took that Evangelical Wilberforce to overturn it in Western Europe.  In the American South, for instance, it didn't come into being until after the English Anglicans gave up the superstitious idea that baptism made a new person and accepted the "enlightened" idea of the natural inferiority of the black race instead.

I can't say anything specific as to the Romanian Lands and the Gypsy slaves, but in general those countries honoring the Euchologion saw slaves as persons under the law rather than chattel, as they were under "enlightened" law codes, e.g. slaves could contract marriages which masters could not break up, a right no "enlightened" state recognized.

[orthonorm]

Hence the prohibition against beardless fellows/children being accepted around monasteries, younger disciples as cell mates and so forth. T

That overlooks the bear community, I'm afraid.

Now this IS double entendre!

(outside joke)

[Hiwot]

Hence the prohibition against beardless fellows/children being accepted around monasteries, younger disciples as cell mates and so forth. T

That overlooks the bear community, I'm afraid.

Now this IS double entendre!

(outside joke)

LOL!

[augustin717]

I can't say anything specific as to the Romanian Lands and the Gypsy slaves, but in general those countries honoring the Euchologion saw slaves as persons under the law rather than chattel, as they were under "enlightened" law codes, e.g. slaves could contract marriages which masters could not break up, a right no "enlightened" state recognized.

Yeah, you don't know much about it that's why it's better to stay silent of things you don't know. In Romanian Gypsy emancipation was a direct consequence of the dissemination among what became the "intelligentsia" (most of boyar extraction, a few clergy) of the ideas of the Encyclopaedists, French Revolution, and, more immediately of the 1848 revolution.

[Romaios]

Hence the prohibition against beardless fellows/children being accepted around monasteries, younger disciples as cell mates and so forth. T

That overlooks the bear community, I'm afraid.

Bears were tolerated around Saints - see the icon of St. Seraphim of Sarov. If it's those bears you meant.
 

Just expressing opinions, not really preaching.

I didn't mean you personally, unless you plan to join the gay parade on Patriarchate Hill in Bucharest next month.  

[ialmisry]

Hence the prohibition against beardless fellows/children being accepted around monasteries, younger disciples as cell mates and so forth. T

That overlooks the bear community, I'm afraid.

I doubt bestiality was ever popular with bears, about as popular as with tigers (an old Latin work has a marginal on bestiality "rarely attempted with tigers.")

You talk as if such problems were ignored by the Church in the past, before the "enlightened" press brought them to our attention.  As pointed out, the canons etc. show otherwise.

The Church deals with it on its own terms. It doesn't need preachers to teach it what's acceptable and what is not

Just expressing opinions, not really preaching.

lost the courage of our convictions, have we?

[augustin717]

I didn't mean you personally, unless you plan to join the gay parade on Patriarchate Hill in Bucharest next month. 

Not really. But I've always watched the one here. Passes literally by my house. Always had a great time.

[Romaios]

I can't say anything specific as to the Romanian Lands and the Gypsy slaves, but in general those countries honoring the Euchologion saw slaves as persons under the law rather than chattel, as they were under "enlightened" law codes, e.g. slaves could contract marriages which masters could not break up, a right no "enlightened" state recognized.

Yeah, you don't know much about it that's why it's better to stay silent of things you don't know. In Romanian Gypsy emancipation was a direct consequence of the dissemination among what became the "intelligentsia" (most of boyar extraction, a few clergy) of the ideas of the Encyclopaedists, French Revolution, and, more immediately of the 1848 revolution.

Also as a consequence of so much social progress, the Gypsies of Romania lost their traditional crafts and roamed about all free and emancipated, but not integrated in anyway by society. Now they moved westward, to learn Enlightenment from the French themselves. Monsieur Sarkozy was terribly happy!